Summary
Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel refers probe of fake electors to federal prosecutors. Interview with Rep. Elaine Luria (D-VA). President Biden announces deployment of six federal medical teams.
Transcript
MARC ELIAS, DEMOCRATIC ATTORNEY: So, you know, we have had debate after debate after debate about the need to strengthen and protect democracy and it is time for every member of the House has already stood up and voted and it`s time for the senators to do the same.
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: All right. Marc Elias, thank you so much for your time.
ELIAS: Thank you.
HAYES: That is "ALL IN" for this week.
THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW starts right now. Ayman Mohyeldin in for Rachel.
Good evening, Ayman.
AYMAN MOHYELDIN, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Enjoy the rest of your night off.
And thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Rachel has the night off.
But we do have a very big show tonight, capping off what has been a pretty extraordinary week of news here in the United States. The last few days may very well be a part in our history as a nation that we look back on, as the time everything started to come closer into focus about the coordinated effort orchestrated by many Republicans to overturn the results of the 2020 election and derail our democracy.
And we`re going to get to everything that happened this week in just a second. But first, I actually want to rewind a bit further to one of the weirdest moments of the Trump administration. Take a look.
This was June of 2018, the start of hurricane season. Donald Trump and Vice President Mike Pence visited FEMA headquarters to be briefed on hurricane preparedness. The first lady, who you see there, was also there seated at the head of the table like she`s the co-president or something like that.
But believe it or not, that wasn`t even the weird part. I want you to watch this. At one point, Donald Trump takes the water bottle that is in front of him and puts it on the floor, at which point Mike Pence does literally the exact same thing. It almost looked Pavlovian for a moment, a weird, innate instinct to mirror whatever Donald Trump does or says.
And anyone who watched this could see that it was totally, totally bizarre. It was, though, of course, completely on brand for Mike Pence who spent the better part of the Trump administration dutifully falling in line behind the president, justifying every controversy and misstep Trump made as his boss.
Now, that unquestioning loyalty, though, as we saw and the world saw came to a crashing halt on January 6 when Vice President Mike Pence actually refused to go along with Donald Trump`s scheme to block the certification of the election results for Joe Biden. And ever since then, since that day, it has been a kind of open question where things stand between Donald Trump and his former vice president, whether Mike Pence is still in good terms -- you know, still on good terms with President Trump and whether, you know, that is even a place that Mike Pence would like to be.
But now a year after the attack on January 6th, it might actually be decision time for Mike Pence. "The New York Times" is reporting that the former vice president through his lawyer this week has been in discussions with the January 6th investigation in Congress about whether or not he is willing to voluntarily testify.
Now, those conversations have been ongoing since this summer. Mike Pence, of course, was the linchpin to Donald Trump`s scheme to overturn the election results on January the 6th, even though pence in the end did not go along with it.
Presumably he has a lot of important information to share with the committee about what the president may have told him in the run-up to January 6 and also this week the investigation asked to hear from the top Republican in Congress, Kevin McCarthy. Now, you may recall the committee says McCarthy`s testimony is key to their investigation because he spoke to Donald Trump before, during and even after the attack on the Capitol. He could provide valuable insight into Trump`s efforts to influence the election results on that day.
Kevin McCarthy announced that this week he will not cooperate with the investigation, which means if the committee would like to hear from him, they will have to issue him a subpoena to compel his testimony. Today, "The Washington Post" editorial board published a blistering op-ed imploring the January 6th investigation to subpoena Kevin McCarthy. They write in part, quote, subpoenaing the minority leader would be unprecedented, but his behavior amounts to a dereliction of his oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
In his quest to become the next GOP House speaker, Mr. McCarthy has instead thrown in his lot with the enemies of democracy. So, the January 6 Committee nevertheless continues a pace, despite the noncooperation of several key witnesses.
[21:05:06]
And just today, you had the investigation interview Donald Trump`s last defense secretary, Christopher Miller. It was an important interview. He was the man in charge of the Defense Department the day of the January 6th attack. He might be able to shed light on the Trump administration`s real time response to the attack on the Capitol, or as I should note, lack thereof.
Now, we`re also keeping an eye on the Justice Department`s investigation into what happened on January 6th, which yesterday took quite a dramatic turn. The leader of this right-wing pseudo-paramilitary organization called the Oath Keepers was arrested yesterday. He was indicted for seditious conspiracy for allegedly coordinating the violent attack on the Capitol back on January the 6th.
Ten other members of the Oath Keepers were also brought up on those sedition charges just yesterday. Now, put this simply: seditious conspiracy is a plot to stop the government from carrying out its laws by force. It`s important to emphasize here it`s rarely tested, fairly arcane, but it is an important part of the law.
Now, we will have some expert help in just a few minutes to help us break down what we reasonably should expect from this case. Now, the leader of the Oath Keepers here, Stewart Rhodes, he made his first appearance in court late this afternoon. The judge ruled that he will remain in custody at least until his next court appearance, which for now is scheduled Thursday.
One of the biggest developments this week came, of course, in the story that Rachel and her team here have been working on all week about how Republicans in multiple states appear to have forged fake documents in the 2020 election, putting themselves forward officially as if they were in the real electors from their states, when they in fact were not.
This scheme in a lot of ways operated right out in the open, Rachel and her team as well as local reporters in these states, have spent the last few days digging up videos of these fake groups of electors meeting in 2020, of them trying to certify the election for the candidate that lost in their state.
But now finally more than a year later, actions are beginning to meet consequences. In Wisconsin, one of the states in which this scheme was apparently run, two state lawmakers have sent this letter to the district attorney in Milwaukee pressing him to investigate the fake elector scheme in Wisconsin. We`ll keep an eye out to see if the Milwaukee County D.A. issues any kind of response to this.
Meanwhile, there was a huge advance on this story out of Michigan last night right here on this show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANA NESSEL (D), MICHIGAN ATTORNEY GENERAL: We`ve been evaluating charges for nearly a year now on these activities as soon as we became aware of it. So I will say under state law, I think clearly you have forgery of a public record, which is a 14-year offense and election law forgery, which is a five-year offense. We think this is a matter that is best investigated and potentially prosecuted by the feds.
And as such just today, we referred this matter to the Western District of the U.S. attorney`s office for them to evaluate it. We hope that Main Justice and the Department of Justice will become involved and use the information they already have to better understand exactly what happened that day so that federal charges can be evaluated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MOHYELDIN: All right. So that was the attorney general from Michigan last night on this program, Dana Nessel, announcing that Michigan has referred the fake elector scheme from her state, from Michigan, to the U.S. attorney`s office as a potential criminal matter. We got ahold of the letter the attorney general`s office actually sent to the U.S. attorney in Michigan putting this investigation, this critical investigation, into their hands.
Now, the attorney general`s office says there are -- they are actually happy to speak with the U.S. attorney to get them up to speed on what they have learned about this potentially criminal scheme so far. There are things as you can see now are moving rather quickly.
And there are a lot of questions. What kind of laws may have been broken here? What does this mean for the broader investigation into what happened on January the 6th? And now that this is in the hands of the United States Justice Department, what happens next?
Joining us now is Barbara McQuade, former U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan.
Barbara, it`s great to see you again. Thank you for spending some time with us this evening.
Let me start by asking about those fake electors. Michigan`s Attorney General, Dana Nessel, told Rachel last night that she is asking federal prosecutors in Michigan to investigate this. As a former federal prosecutor yourself, what would you be looking for?
[21:10:03]
Where does this begin?
BARBARA MCQUADE, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Ayman, as in all cases, the facts really matter here. Some potential charges that come to mind are two. One would be conspiracy to defraud the United States. If these electors genuinely tried to fool the archivists of the United States or the Senate who received this letter. And so, you`d need to investigate what was their intent? Why did they do this?
I think another potential crime is the false statement statute. It`s a crime to submit to a government agency or any government body a statement that you know is false. It requires knowing that what you`re saying is false as well as materiality, that is that it has a tendency to affect the matter that is under consideration.
So I think there are some potential crimes here. But what really is going to matter is the facts. Why did they do this? And I think an even bigger question for me is, why did this happen in multiple states? The same identical document was sent by multiple states, by Republican electors in states where Joe Biden won the election.
And so was there a larger scheme to coordinate this activity? Was this part of a larger Stop the Steal conspiracy?
So I think sending it over to the feds is a good strategy just so they can coordinate all of these efforts with the Department of Justice.
MOHYELDIN: You kind of read my mind a little bit with where I wanted to go about the broader conversation, because these fake certificates that were submitted by Republicans in at least five states as we understand it, all on the same and so my question to you would be can prosecutors in Michigan and other states in case of future investigations use this information to get at what you`re suggesting here, or to raise the question, was this a criminal conspiracy?
How do they go about determining the coordination to raise it to that level?
MCQUADE: So I think that`s one of the reasons that working together among federal prosecutors in all five of those states could be very important so they could use a coordinated strategy. But I think you might begin by simply interviewing these electors and asking them why did you do this? Why did you show up when you know Joe Biden won the state of Michigan and the state of Wisconsin and these other states?
They may have a simple answer, something like we were just casting a provisional ballot. At the time we thought there may have been fraud and didn`t want to miss the December deadline so we thought it was important we sign this thing even though we knew it would have no effect. Okay, that`s fine. Who told you to do that? Who drafted this document?
And finding out that answer and comparing notes by the results you get in all five of those states. If you find out there`s one person in the Trump campaign who is drafting this document and putting them up to it, I think that suggests you look a little higher and look at those communications. Look at what email messages and text messages may have been sent between them in planning all of these things.
And so was it part of a larger scheme? We`ve heard that Bernard Kerik says that there was a national strategy of communications that was being used. Is that part of this? It was all part of the Stop the Steal scam or were these people acting in good faith and just putting their names on paper just in case provisionally it should come to pass. I think a coordinated approach is really important.
MOHYELDIN: Can you -- Barbara, can you talk to us a little bit about whether or not the main Justice Department should be handling this case? I`m sure there`s to some extent coordination when it`s being sought out in five different states, five different U.S. attorney`s office, but do we need one unified investigation here to get to the bottom of what happened? Or is it too premature to do that right now?
MCQUADE: Yeah, if I were working in the U.S. attorney`s office, I would ask for coordination on a case like this and that does happen. I`ve worked on cases where there were tentacles in a number of different states. And so, the U.S. attorneys would work together someone would take the lead, whether somebody in those offices or out of main justice. You would have conference calls, video teleconferences and develop a coordinated strategy.
In the next 30 days we`re going to interview these folks and share the reports of those interviews and see what we have. We`re going to send out grand jury subpoenas to try to get phone records for all of these people. There`s a coordinated strategy like that.
With the Department of Justice you have the ability to do that. I still think you need the state actors, the U.S. attorney`s offices in all of those states because they are the boots on the ground. They have the ability to work with the local FBI, to get out and interview people and gather the records. But coordinating together really is the value of the federal government working together as opposed to each state doing its own thing.
MOHYELDIN: I wanted to ask you, Barbara, about this landmark seditious conspiracy indictment charge that the DOJ has brought against the leader of the Oath Keepers, Stewart Rhodes. You are one of the few lawyers having prosecuted a seditious conspiracy case in 2010 so we`re very lucky to have your expertise with us. But I`m sure you`ve seen the debate this has ignited on how difficulty of a threshold a seditious conspiracy charge is.
[21:15:01]
How hard do you think, will it be to prove this case? Is it a hard case to handle?
MCQUADE: It is a difficult charge to prove. In fact the case that I brought in 2010 against a militia group in Michigan that was plotting to kill police officers ended up being dismissed because the judge believed that there was insufficient evidence of a conspiracy to commit that plot.
So it can be difficult. However, I think some things have changed from that time. Number one, I think that the public in the time that has passed since then has a deeper understanding of the very real threat that militia groups pose to our federal government and to our public safety.
I also think that the nature of these charges are much stronger than anything I`ve seen before. They actually showed up at the Capitol in an effort to stop the certification that would transfer power from one president to another. If there`s ever a case for seditious conspiracy, this is it. And if this isn`t it, then what is seditious conspiracy.
MOHYELDIN: Right.
MCQUADE: So, technically, it really only requires proving the use of force to -- against the government`s authority. So I think technically, they have it here and I also think in terms of just the feel that a jury gets from these charges, it feels like an appropriate charge here.
MOHYELDIN: Yeah, absolutely. Valid question, what is it if it`s not this. Barbara McQuade, former U.S. attorney for the eastern district of Michigan, Barbara, it is always a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for joining us.
MCQUADE: Thank you.
MOHYELDIN: Joining us now is Congresswoman Elaine Luria. She`s a member of the January 6th investigation.
Congresswoman, thank you for joining us. It`s great to have you as well.
The January 6th investigation obviously is seeking cooperation from former Vice President Mike Pence as we were just reporting there. There have already been conversations, as I understand it, with pence`s legal counsel.
Can you shed some light on how fast things are moving? How likely are we to hear from the former vice president?
REP. ELAINE LURIA (D-VA): What I would tell you is that there`s certainly information that the former vice president could shed in our investigation that is critical, and we are moving at an appropriate pace. We`ve heard from many people in the former administration, including those surrounding the vice president. But at an appropriate time we will seek that information.
I would say that what has become incredibly clear to me, and you mentioned this in your opening remarks, this week has brought closer into focus that there has been a coordinated effort by Republicans to derail our democracy. You know, were it not for the actions of a few people, a few people, including the former vice president on that day, to take the right actions and to follow the laws, I think that we could find ourselves in a very, very different place today.
So, his insight into the actions leading up to that day and on that day are very important to the work that the committee is doing.
MOHYELDIN: Speaking of what the committee is doing and I`m sure you have seen this, Rachel and her team have been reporting on emerging evidence that in several states that Joe Biden won back in 2020, Republicans appear to have forged election documents, to cast electoral votes in favor of Donald Trump. Some of that evidence has made its way into the January 6th committee. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
LURIA: What I can say is that we are aware that there are potentially seven states where these documents were generated. As Barbara McQuade mentioned earlier, there are things that are of great concern. Were these forgeries of public records, were these forgeries of election documents? You know, what was the intent? Was this part of a bigger scheme?
We are obviously aware that there were plans that were proposed you know prior to the election, after the former president`s loss in the November election and leading up to January 6 that proposed this idea of this slate of electors. Well, here in black and white are documents that were generated in various states. Who directed that?
You know, the question I think for the committee remains with this concerted and coordinated effort to try to undermine the election results, how high did it go? Where did it come from? And so that`s something very important that the committee continues to investigate.
MOHYELDIN: I know you might not be able to answer this directly, but I guess when you take those first two questions I ask you and connect the dots on January 6th while presiding over the certification of Joe Biden as president, Mike Pence used very specific language to ensure that only one slate of electors was being counted per state. It has me thinking. Do you think this was Pence`s way of bypassing the Republican-led effort to use fake electors to overturn the election?
LURIA: Well, I can`t read into what his thought process was that day, but I think he was very clear leading up to January 6th, he was very clear that there was a process that would be followed in accordance with the law and that is what he did on the day of January 6th.
[21:20:01]
So I think that the information that we`re gathering on the committee could shed some more light onto this. And as Barbara McQuade said earlier, learning more information about the generation of these documents and what the purpose of them was to be and essentially why they were generated and forwarded to the national archives is very important to the work of the committee as well.
MOHYELDIN: Can I ask you, you know, for a minute about your colleagues. Chairman Thompson of the January 6th committee said earlier this week that the investigation has been discussing procedural options against other Republican lawmakers like Kevin McCarthy who might be refusing to cooperate with the investigation. Have you reached a consensus on what approach to take?
LURIA: The committee is still in discussions about what the next step is forward with those individuals, three other members of the House of Representatives that honestly have valuable information for the investigation and we would like to hear from them. But we`re still deliberating what the next step is and how we will approach getting that information that we need.
MOHYELDIN: Congresswoman Elaine Luria, thank you so much for your time. Greatly appreciate you being here with us tonight.
LURIA: Thank you.
MOHYELDIN: Up next, Senate Democrats held a closed-door meeting this week that actually went a little under the radar but it was of vital importance. I`ll explain that, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:25:30]
MOHYELDIN: The special election this week for Florida`s 20th congressional district was not exactly expected to be a nail-biter. It was a race to fill the seat of Democratic Representative Alcee Hastings who was in his 15th term in Congress when he died last April, unfortunately. Now, Democrats outnumber Republicans in this district by nearly a 5-1 ratio. It`s not even close.
So it was not some kind of big upset when Democrat Sheila Cherfilus- McCormick was declared the winner with more than 78 percent of the vote. Her Republican opponent, Jason Mariner, did not even top 20 percent.
But, and here`s the important part, but the outcome is not definitive enough for Mr. Mariner who told the local CBS affiliate, quote, now they called the race. I did not win so they say, but that does not mean that they lost either. It does not mean that we lost. That CBS affiliate also reports that several hours before the polls even closed, Mariner filed a lawsuit alleging a problem with the ballots in Palm Beach and Broward Counties.
It would almost be amusing if it was just that one congressional candidate in Florida. But as you know by now, this is becoming the norm within the post-Trump Republican Party in this country. And tomorrow, speaking of the former president, Trump is set to hold a rally in Arizona.
Among the featured speakers at that rally will be the Trump-endorsed candidates running to be the governor and the state`s top elections official, both of whom are ardent advocates and believers of the big lie.
It`s not just in Arizona, though. As NBC news reports today, the majority of Trump-endorsed candidates for next year`s elections are also open promoters of his big lie. Ten of those candidates actually attended Trump`s January 6th rally, ten. The January 6 insurrection was proof to many Americans of just how fragile our democracy is.
And with each day since then, the same forces who stormed the Capitol and stoked that insurrection have been laying the groundwork to deliver the coup de gras to that fragile system. While efforts to protect democracy are stymied in Congress by moderate iconoclast who may not be in denial about the outcomes of elections but certainly seem to be in denial about the seriousness and urgency of our current crisis.
That begs the question, what do we do about it?
Harvard political scientist Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt are two of the experts on democracies and the forces that can either keep them arrive or quite frankly break them. Back in 2018 when the nation was just entering the second year of the Trump administration, they wrote an incredibly prescient book called "How Democracies Die."
And in the book, those two Harvard political scientists recognized the incipient signs of Democratic decay in America and they compared it to some of the same patterns that had played out in other countries around the world, countries where the grand experiment of Democratic governance had failed. And despite these somewhat gloomy title of their book, they urged - - they oozed with knowledge and insight to come up with ways to stop American society from actually sliding into this authoritarianism, to head off what they had seen happen in places where democracy actually fell apart.
President Biden has reportedly been citing their work since he was a candidate back in 2020. This week Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer invited the authors to present their work to the Democratic Caucus to illustrate the urgency of passing voting rights legislation to address growing threats to democracy. The final chapter of their book is titled "Saving Democracy." and it feels more relevant now than ever.
Joining us now is Daniel Ziblatt, Harvard professor and political scientist, and one of the aforementioned authors of the book "How Democracies Die."
Thank you so much for being here with us, Daniel. I greatly appreciate your time.
Your book ends with several steps to divert the collapse of democracy in America. But I have to note, as I did, it was written in 2018. Given what we have seen in the intervening years since that book came out, is it too late to take the steps that you outlined.
[21:30:01]
DANIEL ZIBLATT, POLITICAL SCIENTIST: Yeah, thank you for having me.
It`s not too late, but I do have to say when we wrote the book, we were very nervous and worried that Donald Trump showed all of the indicators of demagogues we had studied in other parts of the world. But one of the things that`s really changed over the last several years that we`ve grown to realize, the problem is not about a single leader and his cult, rather, it`s much more endemic, much deeper, much broader.
Really the problem today in the United States is that the Republican Party has been taken over by the MAGA faction, as it`s sometimes called, essentially is behaving as an authoritarian party. Much more similar to parties like the BJP in India, the party in Hungary that Donald Trump just endorsed in the upcoming elections and the AKP in Turkey.
So it`s behaving as a much more authoritarian party so the problem is much more widespread than it was in 2018.
MOHYELDIN: Two of the things that you say can help avert a democratic collapse what I think are very interesting because it`s so timely are supporting broadly popular bread and butter economic policies and at the same time promoting racial inclusivity and democratic participation. I say it`s timely because it seems like this is exactly what the Biden administration was trying to do both with Build Back Better and voting rights. But as we see, they both have stalled in congress.
So is there a way in your opinion that we can overcome that?
ZIBLATT: Yeah, I think the Biden administration had the plan that by addressing the material conditions of Americans, this would improve people`s lives and take some of the anger and the rage that has permeated American politics out of American politics.
We have to give the Biden administration credit. They were quite successful in the first year. The build back better plan didn`t succeed. That was plan A.
I think plan B was to address these voting rights concerns because no matter how much you address the underlying economic conditions of people`s lives, if the rules of the game are rigged and unfair and increasingly we see since the January 6, an effort by Republicans to rig the rules at the state level, it doesn`t matter. It makes it much more difficult to win.
So I think there`s serious efforts under way to combat that. I don`t think we should throw in the towel. As difficult as this week has been, I have students who sometimes think they`re not going to do well on an exam so they don`t study for the exam and then they don`t do well on the exam. That`s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And I think Americans should not fall victim to the doom and gloom. There`s a lot of work to do and we have a short amount of time to do it.
MOHYELDIN: As I mentioned in the setup, I know that you can`t talk specifically about your briefing to Democratic senators this week on the threats to democracy, but to pick up on your analogy here about a self- fulfilling prophecy, did you get a sense from speaking to them that they understand the threats to democracy in general, that it seemed like they agreed with you about what`s at stake and where we are as a country in this moment?
ZIBLATT: Yeah, we made really the argument that the threats to democracy today are not military coups and attacks on Congress as serious as they are but much more politicians -- elected politicians in suits, men and women, changing the rules of the game to assault democracy. I think Democratic senators understand that. The question is, is it worth changing the filibuster over this?
We tried to make the case that it is, that the risks facing our democracy are greater than altering the status quo of the filibuster. And I guess the problem at this point is not all the Democratic senators are convinced to this. We should not lose sight of the fact in your setup you said there`s two Democratic senators blocking this. That`s right.
But let`s also remember there are 50 Republican senators who won`t even talk about these issues and that`s ultimately at the end of the day the biggest barrier.
MOHYELDIN: And that`s a good point, I`m glad that you remind us and our viewers that the only reason we`re in this situation is because we have 50 Republicans who are not even willing to engage a debate and in some cases perhaps even contributing to the suppression of voters in this country.
Daniel Ziblatt, co-author of "How Democracies Die," it was a real pleasure, sir. Thanks for your time.
ZIBLATT: Thanks.
MOHYELDIN: Still ahead, why the fear of getting stuck in the mud could soon have major political importance. And, no, that is not a metaphor. We`re talking about actual mud. We`re going to explain that for you, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:38:31]
MOHYELDIN: This is a T-90 Russian tank. It weighs just under 50 tons.
And this is what happens when a T-90 Russian tank when it gets stuck in the mud. This video was apparently taken during military exercises outside of Moscow a few years back. The soldiers operating it there, they had to drive through a not-so-shallow mud pit and you just see the images. The video speaks for itself.
The only way to free it was to bring in another military tank to pull it out of the mud. It turns out that this sort of thing actually -- the issue of military equipment getting bogged down in the mud, this is actually a real concern for the Russian military because, you see, every spring, the frozen fields and roads in and around Russia, they start to thaw. As a result, as one would expect, the land turns into a sea of mud. Over the years, the Russians have coined a term for it, "rasputitsa", meaning the time of bad roads.
And right now, all of that is factoring into a potential decision by the Russian government whether or not to invade Ukraine. "The New York Times" reported this week that U.S. officials believe the Russian president`s window for an invasion is limited, dictated by temperatures that will freeze the ground, allowing for the easy movement of heavy vehicles and equipment before a spring thaw, which could begin by March.
[21:40:01]
It creates a muddy quagmire.
Now, the weather is of such concern that the Biden administration has enlisted meteorologists to look more closely at the likely weather in Ukraine in the coming weeks. It`s against this backdrop that we`re getting further indications of a deepening crisis between Russia and Ukraine.
Earlier today, Ukraine was hit with a massive, massive cyberattack that targeted government websites. Visitors to those sites were met with a message that read in part, be afraid and expect the worst.
And authorities here -- while authorities have not concluded that Russia carried out the attack, it is consistent with similar attacks seen prior to Russia`s invasion of Georgia back in 2008, for example. In addition, U.S. intelligence is now suggesting that Russia is preparing a false flag operation in order to rationalize an invasion of Ukraine.
A U.S. official tells NBC news, quote: We have information that indicates Russia has already pre-positioned a group of operatives to conduct a false- flag operation in Eastern Ukraine. The operatives are trained in urban warfare and in using explosives to carry out acts of sabotage against Russia`s own proxy forces.
U.S. officials also accuse Russia of ramping up disinformation campaigns in order to lay groundwork for a possible invasion, one that would paint Ukraine as the aggressor, not Russia. Russia was acting maybe perhaps in self-defense. Russia also relied on a similar disinformation campaign right before its invasion of Crimea back in 2014 just as a way to justify that very attack.
To quote one senior U.S. diplomat, the drumbeat of war is sounding loud. So far we should note that talks between the west and Russia have failed to de-escalate the situation. So what, if anything, can be done at this point?
Joining us now is Michael McFaul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia during the Obama administration.
Ambassador McFaul, great to see you again, as always. Thanks for joining us.
What do you make of this latest U.S. intelligence report suggesting that the Russians are planning a false-flag attack as a way to justify an invasion of Ukraine? Did U.S. officials put that out there to try to stave off the planning by the Russians?
MICHAEL MCFAUL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: First, thanks for reminding about the slang in Russian, which is the mud on the streets. When I used to live there, we used to joke about it.
But to your serious point, I don`t know. It`s a great observation that maybe the U.S. officials put that out to warn everybody. I think that`s really smart, because as you just pointed out in 2014 they did it. 2008, it was a similar thing when they invaded Georgia.
Going way back, I think it`s important to remember when Russia invaded Chechnya for the second time in 1999, there were several terrorist attacks inside Russia. Many people believed those were planted by the FSB, by the successor group of the KGB. I can`t confirm or deny that, but I know in the intelligence world that was debated and most certainly that was the pretext for that massive military intervention in 1999.
MOHYELDIN: Yeah, absolutely incredible. I know NBC News has confirmed that the Biden administration is considering arming Ukrainian insurgents who would in essence fight a guerrilla war against Russia should Putin invade and potentially take over a large part of the country where the Ukrainian military is unable to fight them directly.
Is this a wise strategy in your opinion? Could it be an effective strategy? But is it a wise strategy?
MCFAUL: Well, we`re not going to go to war with Russia over Ukraine. I want to say that very clearly, because sometimes people speculate we should -- we`re not going to do that. No other country is going to do that.
So Ukrainians need to defend themselves. I support the Biden administration`s efforts to help them defend themselves.
With respect to this reporting, I have only read it. I don`t know if it`s true. But we should help them defend themselves to the utmost so that it makes it costly for the intervention.
That said, let`s have no illusions. The good news is that the Russian -- the Ukrainian military is a lot better today than it was in 2014 because of training and new weapons. But the bad news is the Russian military is a lot more capable today than it was in 2014 and much better armed.
And the forces that are on the borders today are multiples what it was in 2014. And not just in the east, Ayman, it`s in the north, it`s in the south, through Crimea. I think if there`s a military intervention, you might see Russian forces coming from Belarus as well.
I would reminding you, yes, they have to worry about the mud for their tanks, but they have long-range artillery, they have air forces that cannot be shut down by Ukrainian forces. I think it would be a very tragic war if it were to come to that.
I suspect the Ukrainians, of course, will fight, but it will be a very tragic war for everyone.
MOHYELDIN: Let us hope that it does not get to that point.
Ambassador Michael McFaul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia, always a pleasure, sir. Thanks for being here.
MCFAUL: Sure.
MOHYELDIN: We`ve got much more to come here tonight, including how one Republican judge may have just given Democrats some good news. That`s -- and more ahead.
(COMMECIAL BREAK)
MOHYELDIN: I want you to take a look at this photo for a minute. It is of some nurses who work at a hospital in Palm Springs, California. Those sheets of paper they are holding up are called assignment despite objection forms.
Nurses submit those forms to their hospital`s management when they have been given an assignment that they feel is unsafe. Just look at this for a minute. Look how many of those nurses, you know, from that one hospital are holding up right there.
[21:50:06]
And these are nurses from the National Nurses United organization. The nation`s largest nursing union holding a memorial in front of the White House just last night. And they say everyone of those candles represents a nurse who has died from COVID since the pandemic began.
Yesterday, nurses from hospitals all across the country gathered in front of their workplaces and they protested. Two years into this pandemic, they say they are fed up of being overworked, understaffed, exhausted and forced to work in unsafe conditions. On Sunday, the U.S. passed its previous record number of patients hospitalized by COVID nationwide.
But the number we have to look at is hospital capacity, not just the amount of sick patients going in but how that number compares to how many patients our hospitals and our health care system can actually take care of. Yesterday, at least 80 percent of the staff hospital beds were occupied in 24 states, nearing capacity in almost half of the country.
In 18 states, more than 85 percent of the staffed ICU beds were full. I say the word "staffed" here because the staff is the key in all this. Yesterday, President Biden announced the deployment of 120 military medical personnel to help overwhelmed hospitals in six states. That is in addition to military and federal personnel deployed since Thanksgiving we should note.
And today, FEMA expanded how federal funding for National Guard members can be used in those hospitals. The idea is that since most National Guard members are not doctors, this funding will allow governors to send their national guard members into hospitals to pick up slack in other ways like doing laundry and delivering meals, critical, critical parts of hospital operations.
We got a glimmer of hope this week as cities in the Northeast where the U.S. first got hit by omicron showed signs at the wave may be plateauing. That is great news and may mean this wave is a lot shorter than previous ones. But right now, our nation`s medical workers need backup.
Joining us now is Dr. Vin Gupta, critical care pulmonologist and assistant professor at the University of Washington, and a major in the U.S. Air Force Medical Reserve Corps. He spent this past weekend on a medical mission moving critically ill patients, I should note, around the country, with the Air Force Reserves, and spent this past week in the ICU in Seattle, at the University of Washington.
Dr. Gupta, all I can say is thank you for making time for us and spending time. I know it`s your night off so thank you for spending a little bit of that with us here.
Can you help -- Dr. Gupta, can you help us understand what this staffing shortage looks like on the ground where you`ve been? What positions are most understaffed or overworked?
DR. VIN GUPTA, OPTICAL CARE PULMONOLOGIST: And, good evening. Typically what`s happening across hospitals in every single zip code we don`t have enough support staff, much less staff, but support staff to one national census. So even though we might have enough beds in an ICU and ventilators that was all the hot rage back in March 2020, now we don`t have enough respiratory therapists or ICU nurses. So, that is a causing a pincher.
So, at 60 percent capacity or 75 percent capacity in terms of bed availability, that`s when we have to close down. We`re not filling necessarily all the beds with patients in any given ICU, and this is symptomatic of what you`re seeing across the country, Ayman, which is why we need FEMA, which is why we need DOD assets to do the mission and really be deployed for something we previously not done in uniform.
MOHYELDIN: Talk to me about the short-term here for a moment. What more can the U.S. government do to help support hospital staff through this -- through this wave? Because as you mentioned back in 2020 it was about getting ventilators. What can they do now?
GUPTA: Well, I would say the one leader they haven`t pulled that they should pull they should reimagine what our military can do. Yes, it`s good to have National Guard do operational task in hospitals. But I`m part of the critical care and transport team for the Air Force, probably a hundred such teams both across the reserve and active duty. And what we do as a team of doctors, nurses and respiratory therapists we move patients at 30,000 feet.
If we really reimagine the mission here that it`s not moving patients, wounded warriors from Bagram to Walter Reed but perhaps actually helping to expand capacity in a field ICU, field tent ICU, wherever there`s stressed ICUs, we could do that. We could staff a 10 to 12-bed ICU in a tent in a place that doesn`t have that capacity.
So it`s re-imagining the assets, how they can be used we already have at our disposal. But it really requires thinking outside of dogma and really rethinking the mission as it is, and that hadn`t happened yet.
MOHYELDIN: I want to go back to something you said in the first response and that is more about the long-term, about our country`s doctors and nurses. Because you`re looking at this, and obviously hospital staff are now being worked into I guess our third year of a multi-year pandemic.
[21:55:07]
There`s no clear end in sight. What should we be doing to make sure our hospitals, our next generation of doctors are both well-staffed and that those staff are taken care of as we look into the future?
GUPTA: You know, there`s a variety, Ayman, of potential solutions. So thank you for bringing it up.
We could increase funded residence response for docs. There`s more docs that want to be docs, that just can do training because we don`t have enough training slots for them. There`s more nursing applicants that want to be nurses, all types of nurses, that we actually have nursing school slots for. That is a travesty especially given the supply-demand shortage we`re going to see, 40 percent nurses, 30 percent docs are estimated to leave the work force by the end of the decade. That`s a big problem.
Do what the U.K. does, Ayman, which is allow for more options to go directly from high school to health care vocational school. Mitigating debt. Debt is a big problem here.
So I think we need to think outside the box here and embrace solutions that we historically have not been willing to do. The pandemic is forcing those decisions to be made in real time.
MOHYELDIN: All right, Dr. Vin Gupta, greatly appreciate it as always. Good to see you, my friend.
GUPTA: Thank you.
MOHYELDIN: We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MOHYELDIN: All right. That does it for us tonight. Rachel will be back on Monday, and I will see you again tomorrow night at 8:00 Eastern for my show "AYMAN" where we will be two of -- we will be speaking to two of the people who helped create "Don`t Look Up", the hit movie about an impending planet- killing disaster. You don`t want to miss that.
Now it`s time for "THE LAST WORD." Ali Velshi is in for Lawrence tonight.
Ali, good evening.