Summary
Organizers of the racist anti-Semitic rally in Charlottesville, Virginia in 2017 are being sued for money damages by nine plaintiffs who claim the rally violated their civil rights. Florida`s Republican governor wants to find new ways to cause problem for Florida businesses including massive fines. Republicans like to call business regulations socialism unless Republicans are doing it.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Rachel.
And tomorrow is going to a big day for paying the price. We are going to see what could be the longest sentence yet in the attack on the Capitol and we are going to see what happens to Paul Gosar on the floor of the House.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, "TRMS": It`s, you know, accountability days only come around once in a blue moon, it feels like. Tomorrow we will have a double one. We`ll see.
O`DONNELL: Paul Gosar was on our program complaining nothing has happened to him and no one has taken action against him. She is going to see that action taken tomorrow. She will join us tomorrow night after that. So it will be interesting to see what she has to say then.
MADDOW: That`s very smart booking. I`m jealous. But I will also say that we are also getting into this, with this class of Republican members of Congress, sort of the in the Trump era, this will be the second pro-Trump Republican member of Congress who has been stripped of all of his or her committee assignments. This happened to Marjorie Taylor Greene already.
Presumably more will join that. It could be the cause for a new caucus in the House. Those of us stripped from our committee assignments for associations with violence and white supremacy.
O`DONNELL: The committees will not miss them.
MADDOW: That`s true. Fair enough. Thanks.
O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel. Thank you.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi gave House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy a week to do something about Paul Gosar. The speaker gave Kevin McCarthy a week to discipline Paul Gosar within the House Republican caucus for tweeting that animated video in which Paul Gosar stabs Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to death. He assassinates her.
In that same video, after assassinating her, Paul Gosar then threatens to kill President Biden with the same long knives he used to assassinate Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Last week, Paul Gosar praised the creativity of his congressional staff who are paid by the American taxpayer for helping him create that homicidal video.
Today, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said, it`s been well over a week. He not only has not apologized. He not only has not made any sort of contact or outreach, neither he nor the Republican leader of the party, but he has also doubled down.
Today, Paul Gosar said the video is, quote, funny and completely harmless with Kevin McCarthy clinging to his cowardly silence about the video and doing nothing about Paul Gosar. Nancy Pelosi decided to do it herself.
Speaker Pelosi is going to bring in a censure vote against Paul Gosar to the House floor tomorrow. Tonight, the House Rules Committee voted on party lines to send a censure resolution to the House floor for that vote tomorrow. The resolution will strip Paul Gosar of his committee assignments in the House. He will be removed from the House Oversight Committee where Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is also a member, and he will also be removed from the House Natural Resources Committee.
Two Republicans, Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, support censuring Paul Gosar. If the House votes to censure Paul Gosar tomorrow, Congressman Gosar must stand in the well of the House while the censure resolution against him is read aloud to the House of Representatives and to the world. If that happens tomorrow on the House floor, you will be seeing that video at this hour tomorrow night on this program.
Former Republican House member Mark Meadows, who served as Donald Trump`s last White House chief of staff, continues to defy House subpoenas for documents and testimony from the select committee investigating the January 6th attack on the Capitol.
The people who followed Donald Trump`s rallying cry to go to the Capitol that day do not have the same legal delaying tactics available to them that the friends of Donald Trump are using. Today, Daniel Rodriguez, the Trump supporter to confessed to the FBI that he used a Taser to deliver electro shocks to police officer Michael Fanone made a pre-trial appearance in federal court where he tried to have his confession thrown out claiming he was properly advised of his right.
Judge Amy Berman Jackson agreed to disregard that portion of the statement to the FBI that preceded his Miranda warning.
[22:05:04]
But the important elements of the confession came after Rodriguez was clearly advised of his Miranda rights.
In HuffPost, Brian Reilly reports, after being told he had a right to remain silent and get an attorney and signing a form acknowledging those rights, Rodriguez went on to confess to electro-shocking Fanone, who suffered a heart attack. I really don`t know exactly why I tased him, Rodriguez said.
I mean, when I tased him, I really, you know, like, when you do something, you`re, like, why did I do that? I just I had -- I got caught up in the moment and didn`t really think. I didn`t think about him and his family and what was going to happen to him.
And that is why the Trump worshipping Danny Rodriguez gave Michael Fanone a heart attack by hitting him with electroshocks, because he got caught up in the moment. And then asked himself, goddammit, why did I do that?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OFFICER MICHAEL FANONE, METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT, WASHINGTON, D.C.: I was grabbed, beaten, tased, all while being called a traitor to my country. I was at risk of being stripped of and killed with my own firearm as I heard chants of "kill him with his own gun." I could still hear those words in my head today. I was electrocuted again and again and again with a Taser.
I am sure I was screaming, but I don`t think I could even hear my own voice. During those moments, I remember thinking there was a very good chance I would be torn apart or shot to death with my own weapon. I thought of my four daughters who might lose their dad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Danny Rodriguez in a burst of self-awareness describes himself as stupid. Uses that word, stupid, repeatedly in his confession to the FBI. Ryan Reilly reports a tearful Rodriguez called himself so stupid and an f- ing piece of crap during the FBI interview and worried his mom is going to find out what he did.
Rodriguez told the FBI he was just following orders. Trump called us. Trump called us to D.C. If he is the commander in chief and the leader of our country and he is calling for help, I thought he was calling for help. Trump called us to D.C. he thought he was doing it for Donald Trump.
In his confession, Danny Rodriguez said, we thought we were going to hit it like a civil war. There was going to be a big battle. I thought that there was going to be fighting, for some reason, in different cities, and I thought that the main fight, the main battle was going to be in D.C. because Trump called everyone there.
We felt that they stole this country, it`s gone, it`s wiped out, America`s over, it`s destroyed now. We thought we were being used as part of a plan to save the country, save America, save the Constitution and the election.
Are we all that stupid that we thought we were going to do this and save the country and it was all going to be fine after? We really thought that. That`s so stupid, huh? It`s very stupid and ignorant. I see that it`s a big joke than we thought we were going to save this country.
Danny Rodriguez is right. Everyone who attacked the Capitol was and is stupid. Stupid and dangerous. And now they are headed for prison while Donald Trump`s pals continue to defy subpoenas.
Leading off our discussion Ryan J. Reilly, senior justice report for HuffPost. He attended today`s hearing on Danny Rodriguez.
And, Ryan, thank you very much for your coverage on this. You have stuck to this beat. Without you, it would be hard to keep track of what`s happening there.
It looks like the Rodriguez confession with the piece removed prior to his Miranda warnings is probably going to survive in this legal process.
RYAN J. REILLY, HUFFPOST: It does. And I hope we get to see the video, which is a very likely scenario. I think in a few weeks after they give it a little time to process, I think we will see this video. What you will see on there, they give him a warning about his rights and that despite that warning he goes on and makes this confession.
I mean, you know, I think if you step back for a moment, it`s crazy when you think about this idea, this is a supporter of Donald Trump who a few years ago while he was the sitting president spoke in front of police officers and said police brutality is okay. If you are arresting someone, knock their head against the door as they are going in.
That didn`t happen to Danny Rodriguez. He was treated pretty respectfully by the officers as you see on the videotape. He was arrested that morning. It was a pretty, obviously, traumatic sort of experience as the way his lawyers described it as you would except for someone who is accused of tasing a police officer and, you know, has to be arrested in their home, they use flash/bang grenades in the morning when they arrested him.
[22:10:01]
But then they brought him to a separate location where they advised him much his rights. And Danny Rodriguez even talks about the fact that, you know, lawyers told him in the past that he shouldn`t say anything without a lawyer, but despite all that he signs the form and then he just starts talking. It takes a while.
They talk about January 6th and eventually he places himself, you know, in front of the capitol on the scaffolding and then there is a sort of a point where he hesitates and doesn`t want to talk about the actual assault. But with, you know, one more question, suddenly he -- the floodgates open and he acknowledges what happens.
O`DONNELL: And what is the status of his case? Is there any discussion of a plea deal for him?
REILLY: It`s interesting because it`s the one case we haven`t seen where they`ve actually acknowledged making a plea deal because it`s sort of in this difficult realm. Danny Rodriguez isn`t in a very good position if you want to be a defendant.
Obviously, he did this, right? He is on video doing this. There is really no doubt about what he did that day. And he has this confession.
I think that the confession is really going to come into play when you talk about the afterwards and the punishment that he receives. But there is not a lot of leverage he can really bring to this.
We saw one of his -- his sort of codefendants from California who he knew from a lot of these Trump rallies, Gina, she was actually this salon owner and she made a deal with the feds, actually. She pled guilty under seal a few months ago.
And all of the information she was able to bring to the feds and identify a lot of this sort of California group that came in, came into D.C. and committed a lot of crimes at the capitol, she has taken advantage of that and give the feds what they want.
But Rodriguez, because, I mean, they have all this information already and they have a lot of this context already, it`s not clear what sort of leverage he can have or give him. And, obviously, I mean he almost killed Mike Fanone. So, they are not going to be handing him out a generous plea deal. And he is going it -- if he is going to reach a plea deal it will be a significant period of time he will be in prison for.
O`DONNELL: Obviously, if it goes to trial, Officer Fanone would be a witness. But if there is a plea deal, would Officer Fanone be given an opportunity to address the court before sentencing?
REILLY: He would. At sentencing they have victim impact statements. That`s an opportunity that he would come forward. Other victims of the attack and also can make their presentation.
We have seen that where there is a statement brought to the court about, you know, in the case of this New Jersey gym owner a few weeks ago, who was sentenced, we actually saw a statement entered into the record by the victim, the officer that was punched in the helmet by him that day and talking about the fear and the anxiety he was facing as he was surrounded by this pro-Trump mob.
So, yes, it`s definitely an opportunity that Mike Fanone would have. This is really an opportunity where I think a lot of these cases, the more misdemeanor cases, the DOJ has to process these. There is an overwhelming number of cases that they have to sort of get these through the system.
But I think they are willing to take their time with Danny Rodriguez because this is a really -- one of the worst cases of violence that we saw on January 6th and they`ve got him dead to rights. There is no doubt about what he did that day.
O`DONNELL: Ryan Reilly, your reporting on these cases is invaluable. Thank you very much for starting us off tonight. Appreciate it.
REILLY: Thanks for having me.
O`DONNELL: And joining us now is Democratic Congressman Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania. Thank you for joining us tonight, Congressman.
I want to get your reaction to Speaker Pelosi scheduling the censure vote tomorrow on Paul Gosar, rules committee reporting that out tonight.
REP. BRENDAN BOYLE (D-PA): Good. I support it. I will be voting in favor of it. You know, I am not sure what my attitude would have been towards this sort of a video before January 6th, but I know what it is after January 6th. We cannot have any tolerance for those who are in elected office or otherwise who encourage and incite political violence.
And we have seen this even after January 6th whether it`s directed at those who faithfully serve on school boards, those who serve in elections administrations. We`ve had a record number of people quitting those sorts of positions because of the violent threats that they are under. So in my view, no tolerance, and I will be voting in favor of this resolution.
O`DONNELL: Representative Kinzinger tweeted tonight, so let me understand. Gosar`s creepy anime of murder and such is okay, but John Katko is the sinner for negotiating and voting for infrastructure? The GOP leader has once again abdicated his leadership to the insane asylum.
What is your reaction to that?
BOYLE: Kevin McCarthy is a coward. He will do whatever it takes to be speaker. It`s almost pathetic. He just wants to pacify everyone within his caucus, whether it`s the 13 who bravely voted with us on the bipartisan infrastructure bill, whether it`s Marjorie Taylor Greene or Lauren Boebert or even Paul Gosar.
He knows that his path to being speaker, having been denied it once about five years ago, his path is basically needing every single Republican vote. And so he will do absolutely whatever it takes until he gets that brass ring, sadly.
O`DONNELL: What are you hearing from your constituents both about the bipartisan infrastructure bill and what they understand to expect from it and what else are you hearing as you go out there and speak in your town halls?
BOYLE: Yeah, you know, I was really struck last night. I had a tele-town hall. Had almost 8,000 constituents on the line. And I have been doing this. I have been a state rep and member of Congress for 13 years. I had never before fielded as many questions about whether or not our democracy will survive and what we`re doing to protect it.
I was blown away by that because typically the questions that I get are about the meat and potatoes issues, about the everyday kitchen table concerns that my constituents have. So this was quite unusual last night. There is clearly real concern at least in my district, but I suspect throughout the country, about the state of our democracy and its health. It`s pretty obvious we are in a democracy recession worldwide, and, unfortunately, that includes the United States.
O`DONNELL: Congressman Brendan Boyle, thank you very much for joining me joining us tonight.
BOYLE: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: And coming up, bipartisanship was on display when President Biden went to New Hampshire today and was greeted by the Republican governor who last week announced that he would not run for Senate because he didn`t want to work in Mitch McConnell`s Republican senate. Biden building bridges in New Hampshire is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:21:24]
O`DONNELL: A day after signing the largest infrastructure bill in history, President Biden went to Woodstock. No, not that Woodstock. Woodstock, New Hampshire, where he used a local bridge to explain what the bipartisan infrastructure bill is going to mean for the people of New Hampshire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This may not seem like a big bridge, but it saves lives and solves problems. Let me tell you why. Businesses depend on it. Like the local propane company or the sand and gravel company or logging trucks or the public services depend on it, school buses, wastewater trucks, cross it every day.
It`s essential to Woodstock fire station a quarter mile away. Without this bridge, it`s a ten-mile detour to get to the other side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The bipartisan spirit of the Biden infrastructure bill was personified by New Hampshire`s Republican governor, Chris Sununu, who welcomed President Biden to New Hampshire.
Governor Sununu is the most popular Republican politician in New Hampshire. The governor recently made a public announcement of his refusal to follow Mitch McConnell`s request that he run for Senate in New Hampshire. Governor Sununu made it clear he wanted no part of Mitch McConnell`s Senate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU (R-NH): My responsibility is not to the gridlock in politics of Washington. It`s to the citizens of New Hampshire. And I`d rather push myself 120 miles an hour delivering wins for New Hampshire than to slow down and end up on Capitol Hill debating part tin politics without results.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: President Biden is going to Detroit tomorrow to visit General Motors factory zero electrical vehicle assembly plant. The bipartisan bill delivers $7.5 billion to build charging stations for electric cars throughout the country. Those charging stations will help the sales of General Motors` electric cars and the sales of other electric car manufacturers.
There is more federal support for the sales of electric cars in part two of the Biden infrastructure bill, which House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says the House will vote on this week. That bill establishes a federal tax credit of $7,500 for buyers of electric vehicles through 2026. Similar tax subsidies for the purchase of electric vehicles made Tesla the most successful automobile company in the world.
Joining us is Victoria Sheehan, the commissioner of the New Hampshire department of transportation.
Thank you very much for joining us tonight, Commissioner Sheehan. Did you get a chance to speak with President Biden today?
VICTORIA SHEEHAN, NEW HAMPSHIRE TRANSPORTATION COMMISSIONER: I did. I had a chance to speak with him and our delegation about the importance of this bill for New Hampshire.
O`DONNELL: How long will it take for people in New Hampshire to see projects actually -- infrastructure projects actually happening?
SHEEHAN: Within a year. This bill provides an increase in formula funding for roads and bridges as well as increase in investment in airports and public transportation. We in New Hampshire developed a ten-year plan. So, we already have projects identified that we can move forward with and accelerate based on the availability of the additional dollars.
O`DONNELL: And, for example, on the bridge that the president appeared at today, what is the timetable for repair on something like that?
SHEEHAN: That`s a bridge that was scheduled for construction 2024. Our hope is to accelerate that by a full year. It`s in very poor condition. The department has been working hard to keep it in service. It was down-posted several years ago, but we worked to maintain it and made sure it stayed open to the traveling public. We can return it to its original use, which was for all traffic and all sizes of vehicles.
[22:25:06]
O`DONNELL: So, of course, New Hampshire, you already have plans and hopes for certain kinds of infrastructure development and repair, and what this tells you is the money is coming, we can start the work?
SHEEHAN: Yes. We`re very excited to move forward with these projects. They are ranging in size and scale, small intersection improvement projects that bring safety for those that use the intersections daily, improving the condition of roadways, replacing bridges such as the one that we were on today.
These are critical projects to the communities that they serve. We`re also trying to address multi-modal accommodations as we rehabilitate and restore this infrastructure and the communities have been waiting a long time for some of this investment and are excited to partner with us to do what they can as well to help us deliver these projects quickly.
O`DONNELL: Commissioner Victoria Sheehan, thank you very much for joining us from New Hampshire tonight. Really appreciate it.
SHEEHAN: Thank you. Great to be with you.
O`DONNELL: And joining us now is David Plouffe, former campaign manager and White House senior adviser to President Barack Obama. He is an MSNBC political analyst.
And, David, we are at an interesting stage at the infrastructure bill that has become law, and that is I am finding it much easier to describe it now that it has passed and become law, and we actually have practical applications of it out there.
DAVID PLOUFFE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: No question. The language President Biden used today about the types of trucks that went over that bridge and why it was important, the more real it is, the more granular, the more I think until there is shovels in the ground, it will matter to people.
And so it was great to see American flags and bridges and really vivid descriptions of who would benefit. This is important for the country, most importantly, but also politically. The most important thing for Democrats next year in their battle to save democracy and hold on to control in Congress will be President Biden`s approval ratings growing.
And I think if people feel better with the economy and this infrastructure bill will be a big piece of that as will the Build Back Better bill as well, you know, that and getting COVID firmly in our rearview mirror will give people confidence the direction of the country and also improve Joe Biden`s standings.
O`DONNELL: Commissioner Sheehan just made a point that I think speeds up some people`s timetables of what they are expecting here. And, obviously, in all 50 states there are people who are planning infrastructure projects that they -- and they have wish lists, and they are all -- all they need is the money. And here comes the money, and that`s why she is able to say people in New Hampshire and other states are actually going to see some results from this within a year.
PLOUFFE: Oh, it`s so critical, Lawrence. And the specificity with which you can talk about this, it goes down to every community. You know, the commissioner mentioned intersection improvements. Of course, with targeting and data, you know, you can deliver really, really surgical messages to people about how this bill is helping not just their state, not just their county, maybe not just their town, but their actual neighborhood.
So, yeah, I think this has to be most importantly executed well, the substance of this. So people feel like the money is being spent properly, they are seeing results, they know people who might be employed by these projects. But the storytelling and bringing people along as these projects develop is going to be critical. Again, you can do this down to the zip code level.
O`DONNELL: And tomorrow when he goes to Detroit and focusing on the electrical vehicle support that is in both of these bills, the tax provisions that are in the bill that they haven`t voted on yet are really powerful. Some of the tax credits go up to over $12,000 for electric vehicles made by union workers in the United States.
And so that kind of support for the electric vehicle industry now becomes very clear and it pulls the kind of discussions we have here, out of that when are they going to vote on the bill, who is negotiating with who, and this is when we actually, in effect, get to read the text of it through the real application of it.
PLOUFFE: Yeah, through visuals, Lawrence, which is the way we communicate messages today. If you can`t do it in a picture and infographic, you might not even try. So, that`s the beauty of it.
And the electrical vehicle then is interesting. The entire investment there in both these bills because, you know, it cannot be seen as simply, as important as it is, you know, an effort to combat climate change or it`s going to help, you know, people in my city now, San Francisco, driving around in their Teslas.
You pointed out, people have to make the vehicles. People have to put the charging stations all around the country. Joe Biden talked about this when it passed. I think he did something smart, which is so much of this bill, the infrastructure bill, and so much of the Build Back Better bill are going to really benefit non-college graduates, people who make things with their hands. People who build this country.
And so, yes, you can tell a holistic story, I think about the electrical vehicle investments and the charging investments that really will capture everybody.
O`DONNELL: Yes, and it`s when you think about the number of just charging stations alone to be built and installed around the country, the number of jobs in all of the states that that creates is very -- that`s going to happen very quickly.
PLOUFFE: Well, sure. We also need, you know, to see the adoption of electrical vehicles, which is already quite strong, accelerate. And we know from research that one of the barriers is people are worried. What if I can`t find a charging station? What if I have a long trip?.
Well, when people see them all over the country, all over their state, all over their county, I think it`s going to help accelerate the adoption.
So it`s a really smart long-term policy play, but I also think there should be real short-term benefits because people will see people working on those projects. And they will be curious about what that is.
I didn`t expect to see a charging station in my community. Maybe I will now think more seriously about buying an electric vehicle.
O`DONNELL: David Plouffe, thank you for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it. Thank you.
PLOUFFE: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: And coming up, Nazis are on trial in federal courtroom in Charlottesville and they are not trying to hide their poisonous beliefs. Dahlia Lithwick will join us next.
[22:31:36]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have left politics. I had no intention of running again until I really got upset when I saw those folks coming out of that field down in Virginia carrying swastikas and torches and white supremacists.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The event that Joe Biden describes as his reason for running for president is now the subject of a federal civil rights lawsuit in Charlottesville, Virginia. Organizers of the racist anti-Semitic rally in Charlottesville, Virginia in 2017 are being sued for money damages by nine plaintiffs who claim the rally violated their civil rights.
The 14 individual defendants in the case are mostly judgement proof, meaning they have no money or assets. And so a financial judgment against them cannot really be enforced.
One of the defendants has been convicted of federal crimes and is serving a federal sentence. Representing himself in court has become a game for him, but actually allows him to spread his hateful messages to his followers.
"The Washington Post" reports, "On any given day this trial sounds like an open spigot of hate. Defendants have dropped the N-word, admired Adolf Hitler, joked about the Holocaust and trafficked in racist pseudoscience."
When one defendant was being questioned on Friday, he called himself, quote, "a white supremacist racist, an anti-Semite, a homophobe, a xenophobe, an Islamophobe and any other sort of `phobe` that benefits my people, so help me God."
Joining us now is Dahlia Lithwick, senior editor and legal correspondent for slate.com and host of the podcast "Amicus". Also with us Tyler Hammel, the court`s crime and public safety reporter at the "Daily Progress Newspaper" in Charlottesville.
Dahlia, these defendants are turning this courtroom into a place for their poisonous performance art.
DAHLIA LITHWICK, SENIOR EDITOR/LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, SLATE.COM: Well, yes and no, Lawrence.
Certainly -- everything you just said is true and they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. They say the N-word, they cite "Mein Kampf". I mean, no question that it`s despicable.
At the same time, it`s starting to work against them. We really saw that today as they tried to mount their own defense where just explaining at great length as Richard Spencer tried to do and Chris Cantwell tried to do just how much they hate Jews and people of color seems to not necessarily be the best trial strategy in the world.
O`DONNELL: Tyler Hammel, are they trying to win this case legally in court?
TYLER HAMMEL, COURTS AND CRIME REPORTER, "DAILY PROGRESS NEWSPAPER": I mean, I have to assume that`s the end outcome they want, but certainly their efforts call that into question. I mean Cantwell in particular has mounted a perplexing legal defense that really does read more as performance than anything that an attorney would do.
O`DONNELL: And so, Dahlia, if they are not trying to defend themselves, and of course just remind the audience, it`s a civil case. No one is going to go to prison or jail for what happens in this courtroom. Worst-case scenario, they get hit with a large financial judgment that they can never pay. What are their objectives other than winning the case?
LITHWICK: I think attention. I think that in an attention economy for a lot of them, who have been de-platformed from all sorts of different places that they used to spread their hate. This is a really golden opportunity to make a lot of noise and get a lot of eyeballs and get a lot of ears.
And certainly it is true, as the "Washington Post" pointed out last week, that for some of them, this is a golden opportunity to go on one another`s podcasts and say hateful things.
[22:39:44]
LITHWICK: But I think the question is, if at the end of the day you just kind of look like a loser who has lost all of your money and is trying to crowd source funding while you podcast from your parents` basement, have you really scored and secured the kind of attention you want?
O`DONNELL: Tyler, what about that? Are they trying to use this as a recruitment opportunity?
HAMMEL: That certainly seems like a possibility. I mean, their legal defenses are perplexing. But this is probably the largest audience any of them have had in a really long time, certainly since the rally.
And many of them, you know, don`t have any money to begin with. So it`s kind of a no-lose situation.
O`DONNELL: And, Dahlia, what are you seeing in the way the judge has had to handle this case? It`s a very difficult thing for judges when defendants are representing themselves as is happening in this courtroom.
LITHWICK: You know, Lawrence, initially I think the rap was that the judge was bending over backwards to be fair. He was allowing all sorts of things because they are pro se (ph), that he might not have allowed otherwise.
There was some sense that he was trying very, very hard to look as though he wanted to level the playing field. I will say there was a moment today where some of the defendants trying to sort of file this Rule 20 motion, wanting to get themselves out of the case, and Judge Moon (ph) just sort of laid down the hammer and explained conspiracy law and said I explained this a bunch of time times. You don`t have to agree. If you all showed up with hate in your heart and wanted to see violence, that suffices for a conspiracy.
It was kind of a pivotal moment where it became really clear he has been tracking and clocking every second of this and he knows that, although they keep asserting, we didn`t know each other, we didn`t plan this, nobody shook hands and agreed, he knows exactly what conspiracy law is and he knows that they are trying to evade it.
O`DONNELL: Tyler, are there some of the defendants who are represented by attorneys, are they actually trying to mount a serious defense?
HAMMEL: Absolutely. The ones represented by attorneys, particularly Jason Kessler have mounted quite a significant defense. It`s definitely a stark contrast to the pro se defendants watching these actual attorneys argue against the, frankly, just staggering amount of evidence against them. I don`t know how they are going to do it, but that`s what they have been trying.
O`DONNELL: And, Dahlia, the evidence against them includes now defendants` own testimony?
LITHWICK: Right. There was this amazing moment, Lawrence, where, you know, Richard Spencer, the person who invented the term "alt-right" was questioning Jason Kessler, who was the sort of local leader of the 2017 rally, and they got into this kind of slap fight about who hated each other more and who said more hateful things and who was a bigger psychopath.
And you have to think they are working out their huge egos and their own issues and their own pursuit of fame, but at one another`s expense. And it really has this kind of scorpions in a bottle vibe where nobody emerges unscathed. They just can`t help themselves.
O`DONNELL: Dahlia Lithwick and Tyler Hammel, thank you both very much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
LITHWICK: Thank you.
HAMMEL: Of course.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
Coming up, Florida`s Republican governor is trying to pile regulation on top of regulation for businesses in Florida that are trying to survive the COVID pandemic. The same Republicans who claim that government regulation is socialism now just can`t get enough of it.
That`s next.
[22:43:42]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Florida`s Republican governor wants to find new ways to cause problem for Florida businesses including massive fines. Republicans like to call business regulations socialism unless Republicans are doing it.
Florida`s Republican governor has called the Republican legislature back into session to have them vote on new ways to punish Florida businesses that require their employees to be vaccinated.
Governor Ron DeSantis wants to fine businesses $50,000 if an employee is not offered five different ways to opt out of being vaccinated. One of the ways, the new law the governor is proposing would allow a worker to opt out of being vaccinated is by wearing a mask.
So the governor who is opposed to masks is now saying employees must wear masks if they are opposed to vaccination. The proposed Florida laws are in conflict with federal regulations now and there is no guidance for the increasingly burdened Florida businesses who would need to sort out the contradictions between state and federal requirements.
Joining us now is Democratic Florida state senator Jason Pizzo, he represents parts of Miami. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
What is going to happen with these new laws that the governor is trying to push through the legislature?
STATE SEN.JASON PIZZO (D-FL): Lawrence, thank you for having me on. It`s been a very long day of trying to sort through and reconcile in completely circular arguments as you mentioned in your opening. All the tenets of fiscal conservatism and Republican tenets are in complete contradiction right now.
The governor seeks to add yet another layer of regulation with a state OSHA plan in one bill of the four bills that we have, large pots of money that are not attendant or attached to any itemized schedule to investigate companies with no benchmarks, no deadlines.
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PIZZO: And as you mentioned, large sizable fines -- $10,000 for businesses that are under 100 employees. $50,000 for businesses that are over 100 employees.
And really just a special session, extraordinary measure, to continue yet more sort of platitudes. We are not doing anything. This is a lost opportunity that creates added layers of confusion.
And to your point, and one of the things that we have been stressing over the past couple of days, is how do you disseminate this to small businesses? Who are they supposed to follow. You know, they`re supposed to listen to the federal government. They`re supposed to listen to the state government for laws are discombobulated and really just are not reasonable.
O`DONNELL: And those fines are $50,000 per employee who presumably brings some kind of complaint. Is there -- does the legislation indicate how an employee who feels their rights haven`t been honored by the business would then somehow file one of these complaints?
PIZZO: It`s vague. As it relates to -- the major bill that we`re here for, Senate Bill 2, is basically two parts. The first part relates to private employers and employees and how they file a complaint with the Department of Legal Affairs extension of the state attorney general`s office.
The second part of the bill is about prohibiting mask mandates on students, which is now moot because the last three of the major school districts including Miami-Dade have now done away with it. So that point is moot.
But the path is basically to file the complaint. And it is even in the very technical and the minutia of the bill, the plain reading just added layers and layers and layers of confusion to that question, to that point.
You don`t find out as a small business that you have been in violation until you receive a notice of violation, which is not acting in good faith to the small business owner. Give them prompt notice that a complaint has been filed and perhaps it could be remedied or cured. But this is sort of gotcha and slap you moment.
O`DONNELL: And obviously incurs legal costs and lawyers; fees on these small businesses that have to deal with these sudden, new regulatory burdens.
PIZZO: Lawrence, if I told you that there is a scheme being devised where there is a pot of $5 million with no actual attendant cost associated with it, today I ask what is the cost per investigation. Couldn`t get an answer. They didn`t know.
Material terms in the bill are not defined. One of the exemptions is an anticipated pregnancy and yet that will defined after the bill is signed we`re told by the Department of Health, the Florida Department of health.
And so, you know, these fines are per violation. We don`t know if it`s per day, per eight-hour shift when someone clocks in. And so it is beyond vague. It`s really an insult and attack to business.
Now, if I told you there is a $5 million slush fund, we know that`s for the attorney general basically who does with every case whether it`s opioid manufacturers, telecommunications, outsources it to a large trial firm. They`re going to bill their several hundred dollars an hour. That`s how the $5 million gets eaten up.
And it`s the worst kept secret that that money is going to be used to go and try to fight and challenge and litigate probably yet another senseless lawsuit against the federal government.
O`DONNELL: Florida state Senator Jason Pizzo, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.
PIZZO: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Tonight`s LAST WORD is next.
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KIM JANEY (D), FORMER ACTING MAYOR OF BOSTON: As I leave office now as mayor, I feel good knowing that you share my love and my passion for Boston. I`m confident that you will lead our city with integrity and that you will center equity in all that you do.
I know that Boston is in good hands, and I am so proud to call you Madam Mayor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: That was Boston`s first woman mayor today at city hall handing over the office to Boston`s first elected woman mayor.
Kim Janey took over as acting mayor in March after Mayor Marty Walsh became Joe Biden`s secretary of labor. Kim Janey ran in the election for mayor this year but lost to city councilor Michelle Wu who today became Boston`s first Asian-American mayor.
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MICHELLE WU (D), MAYOR OF BOSTON: The first time I set foot in Boston City Hall, I felt invisible. Swallowed up by the maze of echoing concrete hallways, intimidated by the check points and looming government counters, reminded of why my immigrant family tried to stay away from spaces like this.
Today I know city hall`s passage ways and stairwells like my own home. City government is special. We are the level closest to the people, so we must do the big and the small.
Every street light, every pothole, every park, every classroom lay the foundation for greater change. Our charge is to see every person and listen, to meet people where they are, to give hope and deliver on it, to find joy, in the words of the amazing Kim Janey and spread it.
Let history note not just who she was in this office but all she got done and all she will continue to do for our city.
The first time I set foot in city hall, I felt invisible. But today I see what`s possible in this building, and I see all the public servants raising us up -- front line workers, first responders, teachers, bus drivers, building inspectors, city workers.
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WU: I am deeply honored to work alongside you. And I ask everyone to join me in expressing our gratitude for your service.
We have so much work to do, and it will take all of us to get it done. So let`s get to work.
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O`DONNELL: The Honorable Michelle Wu gets tonight`s LAST WORD.
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