Summary
The January 6 Select Committee has documents from National Archive showing Donald Trump drafted an executive order for the defense secretary to seize voting machines to overturn the 2020 election. Rep. Colin Allred (D-TX) answers questions regarding voting rights law in Texas and the Electoral Count Act reform. Mitch McConnell gave away the game in his gaffe about black people voting. His words illustrate how black people are seen by our fellow citizens.
Transcript
MEHDI HASAN, MSNBC HOST: Get ready to see a lot more of this hypocrisy. And so the next time you see a congress person taking credit for a big piece of infrastructure near you especially if they`re a Republican it might be wise to just double-check how they voted. I`m just saying.
That does it for us tonight. Rachel, you`ll be delighted to hear will be back on Monday. And I hope to see you Sunday night for my show, "The Mehdi Hasan Show" at 8:00 p.m. eastern here on MSNBC and week nights at 7:00 p.m. on Peacock. Now it`s time for THE LAST WORD. Jonathan Capehart is in for Lawrence tonight. Good evening, Jonathan.
JONATHAN CAPEHART, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Mehdi. I`m just saying you did a great job for your debut at 9:00 sitting in.
HASAN: You`re very kind, Jonathan. It helps to have obvious examples of hypocrisy to point to on my way out.
CAPEHART: I know. It really does make it very easy. Mehdi, enjoy the rest of your Friday night.
HASAN: Thank you.
CAPEHART: Tonight, the full scope of the Republican effort to overturn the 2020 election is coming into sharper focus. The January 6th Select Committee is now in possession of hundreds of pages of documents that Donald Trump attempted to block the National Archives from handing over.
And it`s now clear why he fought so hard to hide these documents. "Politico" obtained one of them, an unsigned draft of an executive order that directs the Department of Defense to seize voting machines. The order, which was never signed, is issued -- is dated December 16, 2020.
And it would allow the defense secretary to "seize, collect, retain and analyze all machines, equipment, electronically stored information and material records required for retention under a U.S. law that relates to the preservation of election records. The order also cites two classified documents suggesting that the author had access to information about government secrets.
This wasn`t just some coup (ph) with no connection to the Trump administration. In addition to new documents like that, "Politico" reports that the January 6th committee is investigating efforts by state level Republicans to send Congress alternative slates of 2020 presidential electors.
In December of 2020, illegitimate Republican electors in seven states submitted forged documents declaring Trump won their state over Joe Biden. In five of those states, Arizona, Georgia, Nevada, Michigan and Wisconsin, fake electors even signed certificates claiming they were duly elected and qualified to represent their states.
Just think, if we`re learning all of this a year later, imagine what the Trump White House is still trying to hide. Leading off our discussion tonight are Glenn Kirschner, a former federal prosecutor and Jill Wine- Banks, former assistant Watergate special prosecutor. They are both MSNBC legal analysts. Glenn, your reaction to the -- to this draft executive order just described.
GLENN KIRSCHNER, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, the draft executive order is must-read. It`s only about two or three pages long, Jonathan. But, you know, it`s filled with quasi-legal buzz words and terms and vague sinister allegations against voting systems and foreign countries, China, Iran.
But it really doesn`t make any sense when you read it. Somebody obviously told Donald Trump that the word, that the term "probable cause" has legal significance and as most of your viewers probably know, probable cause is the standard by which we make arrests or judges issue search warrants. So what he does is he sprinkles the term probable cause throughout this really absurd draft executive order.
I have it in front of me. He says that he finds probable cause of evidence of international and foreign interference in the election. There`s probable cause of evidence of fraud and numerous malicious actions and there`s probable cause to find massive cyber-attacks by foreign interests.
But there is no support. These are just bald faced claims. And he then finishes up with, therefore, I want the secretary of defense to seize all voting equipment. I mean, this is really -- these are the unhinged ramblings of somebody desperate to cling to power with no lawful basis to do so.
CAPEHART: And you know what, Jill, what does it say there`s classified information cited in that draft executive order?
JILL WINE-BANKS, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it says that there is somebody involved in drafting it who had access to classified information. But I want to follow-up on what Glenn said because I was also general counsel of the Army.
[22:04:59]
And I can tell you that there is no way that the military can be involved in seizing during civilian times anything that is against the Posse Comitatus Law, and whoever drafted that if they knew confidential information and had that code for intelligence, they know that that is true.
So this was a really, really scary thing. And this is all part of a bigger conspiracy than just this. It relates, of course, to the fraudulent electors, and they`re trying to get nominated. And it relates to all of the other activities, the Georgia phone call, the January 6th events, all of that is part of one big conspiracy to undo our election results and to destroy our democracy.
CAPEHART: Glenn, how can the January 6th committee use these new documents to hold Donald Trump and his allies accountable for their crimes?
KIRSCHNER: You know, I think the evidence of misconduct and conspiratorial misconduct as Jill says is overwhelming, and more seems to pour out every day. And I very much look forward to the public hearings when, you know, I`m sure the House Select Committee will be presenting this in a way that`s understandable and digestible for the American people so we can see really what was going on on January 6th.
The biggest question now for me as a former career prosecutor is, are we dealing with one large overarching conspiracy or are we dealing with a series of separate conspiracies all designed to accomplish the same goal, which is to unconstitutionally keep Donald Trump in power? And I`ll tell you, Jonathan, when we handled big RICO cases, I tried some in the courts of Washington, D.C., we typically will bring one large overarching conspiracy if the evidence supports it.
And then the defense attorneys will invariably say, well, one, my clients did nothing wrong. But if they did, this is improperly charged. It`s really just a series of separate conspiracies. I think that is the biggest legal question remaining because I see evidence of conspiratorial conduct everywhere.
CAPEHART: You know, Jill, CNN has obtained audio from the co-chair of the Michigan Republican party admitting the Trump campaign directed the fake elector scheme. Let`s listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MESHAWN MADDOCK, CO-CHAIR, MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN PARTY: We fought to seat the electors. The Trump campaign asked to do that, under a lot of scrutiny for that today.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CAPEHART: Jill, what do you make of that admission?
WINE-BANKS: I`m not surprised that there is going to be much more evidence that it was directed out of the Trump campaign. We know that not only were there fake electors after the state had certified the real people who were the Biden electors, but some of the electors refused to sign the certification. If they had been elected as Trump electors, they said, well, we weren`t, so I`m not signing this fake document.
So they put in people who weren`t even on the ballot and substituted them for the people who were actually on the ballot if, if and they didn`t, but if they had been elected. So I think it`s just -- it`s a state crime. I think it`s a federal crime. I think that these are things that will be pursued and that the Department of Justice ought to be doing the same thing that the January 6th committee is doing.
I don`t know what they`re waiting for, but the evidence is right there in public. We are all seeing it in the same way we saw what happened on January 6th. I want to see some action and some indictments, not just an investigation to change the laws. I think that`s important. And based on my experience in Watergate, I can say public hearings make a huge difference.
People change their minds when they see the testimony, when they see what happened and live witnesses saying it. So the public hearings are very important. Changing the laws is very important. Making sure that gaps are closed, but accountability requires criminal investigation. And if there is the evidence to support elements of a crime, then they have to be indicted no matter who they are. No one is above the law.
CAPEHART: Jill Wine-Banks, Glenn Kirschner, thank you very much.
As we`re learning more about Trump`s efforts to overturn the 2020 election, Republicans in Arizona are now trying to legislate off of Trump`s election lies. Arizona Republican state senator Wendy Rogers has filed legislation to create a bureau of election in the state with the power to subpoena witnesses and seize voting machines, giving more control of elections to partisan politicians acting in bad faith.
Joining us now is Arizona secretary of state Katie Hobbs. She is running for governor of Arizona. Secretary Hobbs, thank you for being here. Your reaction to legislation being proposed by Republicans in your state?
[22:10:02]
KATIE HOBBS, SECRETARY OF STATE OF ARIZONA: Well, it really is a solution in search of a problem, but I think that minimizes the seriousness of what we`re seeing here. You nailed it when you said this is attempts to put partisan individuals overseeing important aspects of our elections and it`s not necessary. This is one more example of Trump loyalists using his big lie to take the levers of power they have access to and change how we run and certify elections in a way that will allow them to in the future overturn the will of the voters if they don`t like the outcome.
CAPEHART: You know, it seems like there are -- there were so many close calls in terms of overturning the election, the 2020 election. How important is it to install officials who put country over party?
HOBBS: It is incredibly important. As my colleague, Jocelyn Benson in Michigan has said many times that democracy prevailed in 2020 because people of integrity in both parties did their jobs. They upheld the integrity of the election and the will of the voters. And when we start to see partisan actors who are more concerned about the outcome rather than the processes, we`re in trouble. And we`re seeing that play out in front of us right now.
CAPEHART: You know, Secretary Hobbs, I`m wondering what you make of the fake Arizona electors trying to change the outcome of the 2020 election.
HOBBS: Well, we knew about this when it happened last December. We referred it to our states attorney general for investigation and possible enforcement. He`s done nothing with that. He`s currently running for the Republican nomination for U.S. Senate, which might play into his decision making here. But Arizonians are incensed over this. They`re incensed that nothing`s been done and, you know, the attorney general needs to answer to that -- for that.
CAPEHART: Congress failed to pass voting rights legislation, election protection legislation this past week. What would you say to certain senators who don`t believe we need it or who believe the threat ended when Trump left office?
HOBBS: We are at a defining moment in our democracy right now, and nobody who didn`t support this legislation should get a pass. You know, in 2006 the reauthorization of the voting rights act passed unanimously. It wasn`t even controversial. It is astonishing to me that we are at this point where voting rights are all of a sudden hyper-partisan.
I have called on every member to support this legislation and ensure that Americans have the freedom to vote. It is so critical. And this is -- if we don`t have voting rights, we don`t have a democracy.
CAPEHART: That`s right. It is the foundation -- voting rights are the foundation of our democracy. Arizona secretary of state Katie Hobbs, thank you for joining us tonight.
Coming up, every Republican senator, Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, voted to block legislation to protect voters and elections. So how`s that going? Well, today a Texas man has been charged with threatening to kill an elections official in Georgia and there are calls for the Justice Department to get involved in the audit of 2020 results. Congressman Colin Allred, a former elections lawyer, will join us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
CAPEHART: Today a major milestone in the effort to curtail threats against election officials when a Texas man was charged with threatening to kill election and other government officials in Georgia. It`s the first criminal case to be prosecuted by the Justice Department`s election threats task force.
According to the indictment, Chad Stark posted a message on craigslist on January 5th calling for Georgia patriots to "put a bullet" in three unnamed Georgia officials writing, "If we want our country back we have to exterminate these people."
A group of House Democrats led by my next guest, Congressman Colin Allred of Texas is now urging the Justice Department to monitor the ongoing partisan review of the 2020 election results in four Texas counties citing serious concern that this audit may be an attempt to invalidate properly cast ballots in the 2020 presidential election.
The request comes as hundreds of mail ballot applications are being rejected by Texas officials trying to comply with changes in last year`s voter suppression bill. So, what would Senator Joe Manchin say about this because here`s what he said on Tuesday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): The government will stand behind them and make sure they have the right to vote. We have that. The things they`re talking about now are in court. Marc Elias has an awful lot of that in court. The courts are struck down like in Ohio they struck down the gerrymandering. Things are happening, okay. We act like that we`re going to obstruct people from voting. That`s not going to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAPEHART: It is happening. And in Republican led states across the country, the problem is getting worse. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Colin Allred from Texas. He is a former voting rights attorney. Congressman, great to see you again. When you see what`s happening in your state what`s your response to Joe Manchin`s comment?
REP. COLIN ALLRED (D-TX): Well, I respect Senator Manchin. I`ve spoken with him before about what`s happening here in Texas. But he`s wrong that the government is just going to be able to stand behind every voter and these laws are not going to have an impact. You know, right now in Dallas County about 40 percent of our vote by mail applications are being rejected.
In Tarrant County where Fort Worth is, it`s also about 40 percent. In Harris County where Houston is about 35 percent. In Bear County where San Antonio is up to around 50 percent of vote by mail applications are being denied.
[22:20:03]
And just the vote by mail, Jonathan, you have to be 65 or older or disabled here in the state of Texas. So these are folks who already need help voting who are being denied.
CAPEHART: So, congressman, explain how Republican laws have a chilling effect on voters and election workers because there is a spectrum between making it easier or harder to vote and lots of subtle ways to discourage participation.
ALLRED: Yes. When you make small changes to a vote by mail application as they`ve done here where they`re requiring folks to provide either a social security number or a driver`s license number on their application for their mail-in ballot and that has to match the one on their voter registration, which they don`t know which one they might have used in the past for that registration, those small changes have big impacts.
And it makes it so that folks particularly those who are used to voting a certain way, you know, they can fall through the cracks and mistake happen and then they`re no longer able to vote. And that`s what`s happening here. You know, very small changes can have big impacts. I think we need to understand that the courts are not going to save us.
And when he talks about Marc Elias, you know, he talks about what happened on Ohio for example. That`s because of a state constitution. That was a state court that did that. At the federal level we don`t have any protections against gerrymandering because the Supreme Court hasn`t weighed in to do that. We tried to put it into the Freedom to Vote Act but -- and that`s Senator Manchin`s bill, but he doesn`t want to pass it.
CAPEHART: You know, and going back to, you know, the subtle changes and you were talking about the fact 50 percent of mail-in ballot applications in which county are being rejected?
ALLRED: Well, it depends. It`s between 40 and 50, but we`re talking about Bear County which is where San Antonio is.
CAPEHART: Right.
ALLRED: And depending on the county and depending on the time we`re seeing enormous, enormous rejection rates which is going to leave literally tens of thousands of folks being rejected.
CAPEHART: And I`m bringing this up again because I`m wondering, let`s say I`m one of those people in Bear County in Texas and my mail-in application is rejected, what recourse do I have to fight that rejection? Do I have any under Texas law?
ALLRED: Well, you really have to rely on the county elections official to try and work with you to find a way to make it be accepted. And, again, it`s already very difficult to vote by mail in Texas. You have to be 65 or older or disabled or out of town for the entire voting period. So these are folk who need help.
These are folks who are something, you know, they`re older folks or disabled folks, and they`re just trying to vote by mail to be involved in their democracy without having to go physically to a polling place. I think during a pandemic we should be making that easier and not harder.
CAPEHART: You know, so the Freedom to Vote Act failed. The John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act failed, but there seems to be a lot of bipartisan chatter about the Electoral Count Act. And bipartisan support is growing to reform the Electoral Count Act. What do you think of the reforms that are being discussed?
ALLRED: Well, I think it`s the right idea. And we talked about this before, Jonathan. I don`t think there should be a substitute for making it easier to vote in the first place because what`s the point of subverting after an election after election when you`ve already subverted it before it by not allowing people to vote?
But by raising this to (inaudible) for challenging, you know, the slate of electors from states, that`s -- there`s an idea there. Taking the vice president out of the role of basically deciding whether or not we`re going to remain a democracy. What it came down to here on January 6th was whether or not basically Mike Pence was willing to say to -- go along with this plan they had formed willing to throw the election back into the House of Representatives. Thankfully, he didn`t do that.
But no vice president should have that power to decide whether or not we`re going to remain a democracy. So that`s a good reform. These are necessary, but it can`t be a substitute for making it easier to vote.
CAPEHART: Right. Right. The way I look at it is it shouldn`t be this or that. It should be this and that. You know, Congressman, "Axios" reports that besides Congressman Jim Banks some of Congress` other right leaning Republicans open to reform including those who objected to certifying the 2020 election results last year.
They include Senator Ron Johnson, Republican of Wisconsin, a firm Trump ally who initially planned on voting for election in Texas but ultimately opted against it. Congressman, what do you make of the Republican interest in this bill particularly from some who promote Trump`s big lie?
ALLRED: I have some concerns there because some of what we`re talking about here is all dependent on goodwill and who is in control, for example, of the House at the time when these things are challenged. So if you raise the standard for challenging the results from a state from a simple majority to being a super majority, what if they send us a false slate of electors?
And we should challenge that slate of electors. And so I wonder when I see some of the folks who are supporting this if they`re hoping that this is going to make it easier in some ways for them to do what they tried to do on January 6th.
[22:24:56]
CAPEHART: Yes. I have to say, my eyebrow arched when I saw Senator Ron Johnson saying, like, yes, that sounds like a good idea. But we`ll have to save that for another discussion. Congressman Colin Allred, thank you as always for joining us tonight.
Coming up, Mitch McConnell gave away the game in his gaffe about black people voting. I`ll be joined by Congressman Jamal Bowman in his first interview after being arrested yesterday fighting for voting rights.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAPEHART: Mitch, please. That was what went through my mind when I heard Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell say this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: What`s your message for voters of color who are concerned that without the John Lewis Voting Rights Act they`re not going to be able to vote in the mid-term?
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Well, the concern is misplaced because if you look at the statistics African-American voters are voting in just as high percentage as Americans. This is not a problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:30:01]
CAPEHART: I feel compelled to state the obvious. Black Americans are Americans. Mitch McConnell insists he misspoke. But his words illustrate how black people are seen by our fellow citizens.
As I write in the "Washington Post" tonight, the slip shows how ossified the assumptions in our political discourse still are. White is always the default. Talk of suburban voters is really about white suburban voters. Women voters really means white women. And as McConnell put it, American voters really means white American voters.
From that perspective there`s no problem with voting in America because for white people it`s easy to vote. So there must not be any need for Congress to step in, right? That`s Mitch McConnell`s mind-set.
But for black and brown voters it has always been more difficult to register to vote and to cast a ballot. Their concerns are not misplaced. They live it, we live it. And we know which party is making it harder to register and cast a ballot and which party is making it easier to intimidate voters and discount their ballots.
The right to vote and to have your vote counted is so fundamental in America and so important that two dozen protesters including Democratic Congressman Jamaal Bowman were willing to get arrested to keep up the fight.
Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Jamaal Bowman of New York. He also serves on the Civil Rights and Human Services Subcommittee, part of the Education and Labor Committee.
Congressman, thank you for coming to THE LAST WORD.
You were arrested yesterday along with more than two dozen people. Tell us about what happened.
REP. JAMAAL BOWMAN (D-NY): Yes. So there had been protesters at the Capitol -- at the Senate throughout the week beginning on Tuesday. And there were protesters arrested on Tuesday as well.
I got there on Wednesday and we were out there on Wednesday for about four or five hours just trying to talk to senators as they came in and out of the Senate chambers. We were reading legislation that`s been passed throughout the country trying to and looking to suppress the vote. And we were out there for many hours.
So the next day on Thursday I tried to go out there as well, and by the time I got out there the protesters had already been arrested. So they were standing in an area near some yellow tape. And I just wanted to go and embrace them and show them love and thank them for what they were doing.
And as I went to shake their hands and hug them and kind of go down the line and connect with them, Capitol police walked over to me and told me I was under arrest and asked me to put my hands behind my back and slapped the handcuffs on.
CAPEHART: I`m sorry, Congressman, maybe I`m naive. But you`re a member of Congress. You are a sitting member of Congress. I mean, Capitol police -- did the Capitol police know that? Did they have any qualms about arresting a sitting member of Congress?
BOWMAN: Well, as soon as I got there I identified myself as a member of Congress. I told them what district I represented and I asked what happened with the protesters.
They explained to me what happened, which is, you know, kind of crazy as well because the House of Representatives, the Capitol is supposed to be the people`s house. So why are we arresting people for protesting peacefully?
So, you know, because I went underneath the yellow tape that is police tape -- apparently no one is allowed to do that even members of Congress, that`s why I was arrested and that`s why I was charged with a violation of some sort.
CAPEHART: I see.
You know, we need to talk about Mitch McConnell. Today, Mitch McConnell tried to cleanup his comments about black and American voters. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCONNELL: Well, I inadvertently omitted the word "almost". And for that we`re standing here 45 minutes.
This outrageous mischaracterization of my record as a result of leaving one word out inadvertently the other day, which I just now have supplied to you, is deeply offensive. The omitted word is "all", not "almost", sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAPEHART: See, here`s the thing about Mitch McConnell if you`ve covered him or paid attention to him long enough, he`s very careful with his words. He doesn`t say things he doesn`t want you to hear him say.
He also said in that same press conference that it was hurtful. So we know Mitch McConnell is offended. Congressman Bowman, your response.
[22:35:00]
BOWMAN: I was not surprised at all by his comments. I mean what he said is what black people feel every single day.
And it`s not just Mitch McConnell. Many of my colleagues carry unconscious racism and implicit bias with them. And you can see it revealed in terms of how they legislate and how they engage with me and with different communities across the country.
So what he said was, you know, what we know to be true. You know, people don`t believe that black people are real Americans. And if we are, we`re at the bottom of the caste system that`s been designed this way since the inception of America.
That`s part of the problem. That`s why we can`t get voting rights legislation passed in the Senate. That`s why we can`t get the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act passed in the Senate. That`s why HR 40 hasn`t come to the house floor for a vote. And that`s why we`re in the condition we are in terms of socially and racially across the country.
CAPEHART: I`m curious to hear you talk a little bit more. You as a member of Congress with fellow members of Congress, you`ve had to deal with racism, subtle, explicit today -- in today`s Congress?
BOWMAN: Well, absolutely. I mean, Congresswoman Boebert referred to the quote-unquote "squad" as the "jihad squad" on the House floor and no one --
(CROSSTALK)
CAPEHART: Ok. Well, that`s pretty explicit. Right.
BOWMAN: Not even Democrats -- not even Democrats that were on the House floor at the time, they also didn`t object. And this is why, you know, we call for truth and reconciliation and we call for having explicit conversations about race. Because if we don`t look to our past and be honest about who we are, we cannot heal as a nation going forward.
But I want to make one comment about the protesters who were there this week. I want the country to know and understand these are people who are putting their bodies on the line. They have been on hunger strike for several weeks. I met someone who`s been on a hunger strike for 67 days.
They`re putting their bodies on the line with hunger strike. They`re putting their bodies on the line by getting arrested. And this is what happened during the civil rights movement for us to pass transformative legislation.
And we have to do the same thing right now, be engaged in our democracy at that level, organizing across the country not just for a decade but for the rest of our lives to save this country from itself and evolve as a democracy.
CAPEHART: Congressman, real quickly, and those were -- that was very important words that you just said. But for a lot of people out there, people who are voting for voting rights or just people who are seeing nothing get done at the federal level who are demoralized, what do you say to them to keep them in the fight?
BOWMAN: Well, that`s why I`m here with you. That`s why I was out there with the protesters this week. And I`m calling for other members of Congress to do the exact same thing and for organizers not to be demoralized.
We cannot let Mitch McConnell, Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema run our country. This is a country governed by the people, and the people have to rise up and take the country back from those people because they are running our country into the ground.
They`re doing the bidding of Donald Trump and the far right who want to go to civil war to protect their quote-unquote "freedom". But the people have to rise up because the country was designed to be governed by the people.
So we have to keep the faith, we have to rejuvenate, and we have to come back stronger and continue to fight.
CAPEHART: And the people have to rise up and take the country back via the -- via the ballot box and not by what seems to be what was done by the other side and that is ransacking the Capitol trying to disrupt a free and fair election.
Congressman Jamaal Bowman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
Coming up, on Sunday anti-vaxers are going to gather at the Lincoln Memorial to protest requirements to get a lifesaving shot at a time when an American a minute is dying of COVID. That`s next.
[22:39:20]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAPEHART: "I feel like I was watching people get radicalized." That`s what a man named Justin told NBC News senior reporter Brandy Zadrozny about what he experienced on January 6, 2021 when the crowd at the Capitol turned into a riot. To protect his privacy we`re not sharing his last name.
After getting sucked into the world of Qanon, Justin says the chaos of that day started an epiphany for him. "The mob, the flag, the violence," Justin thought, "it didn`t feel right. It got me," he said later. "I was supposed to be a part of a movement, but did I just get duped?"
The extremism of the Trump years often stoked by Trump himself may have culminated with the Capitol riot. But a year later that extremism is still out there. Many of these groups are now attacking the COVID vaccines that have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. In fact, they`re getting together here in Washington on Sunday.
But they don`t want you to call it an anti-vax march. No, no, no, no, no. Instead, they call it a "defeat the mandates" march.
Reporting on the event Ben Collins of NBC News outlines how anti-vaxers win people over by often focusing on vaccine mandates as an entry point.
[22:44:50]
CAPEHART: Joining me now are the two reporters we just mentioned, Brandy Zadrozny, who has extensively covered the anti-vaccine movement as well as the Internet and disinformation; and Ben Collins who covers, to use his term, the dystopia beat. They`re frankly the very best at covering these issues and both are senior reporters for NBC News Digital. Thank you both for being here.
Brandy, I`m going to start with you. How did the vaccine become a focus for these groups?
BRANDY ZADROZNY, NBC NEWS DIGITAL SENIOR REPORTER: Well, anti-vaxers have been around a really long time, right?
CAPEHART: Right.
ZADROZNY: They`ve been around as long as vaccines. So if you go back to the smallpox vaccine of the 19th century there is going to be -- you`re going to see an immediate push back using actually really similar language that we`re seeing now.
We`re going to see anti-vaxers railing against tyranny -- tyranny of mandates, in fact. And we`re going to see the false claims about dangers, the snake oil salesman, all of that is very much the same. So why are we seeing this rise now? And it`s because we have a vaccine
But there is some recent research that I think is really interesting. And it shows that anti-vaccine sentiment and movements really go right along with right wing populism and those two things go hand in hand.
So we saw Trump sowing doubts of vaccines and relating them to autism back when he was running in 2016. Now you add a pandemic, social media, viral misinformation and you start to get to the moment that we`re in.
CAPEHART: Right, right. Ben, so this march here in Washington on Sunday, this very normal looking Web site and they use terms like medical freedom. Explain to us how these groups whitewash their message.
BEN COLLINS, NBC NEWS DIGITAL SENIOR REPORTER: Yes, they`re not going to say that they`re an anti-vaccine march. In fact, if you say that right now on television these people would be very angry at you for calling this an anti-vaccine march.
And there`s a couple of reasons for that. First of all, you know, it`s a messaging strategy. You know, there are people in their lives that they know got the vaccine. They don`t want to alienate those people. They want to bring those people into the movement.
You know, we`re at a place where three quarters of Americans have received at least one shot here. So they are -- they`re base to sell stuff to you is dwindling.
But the more important thing here is if you`re an anti-vaccine march on Facebook or Twitter you get taken down very quickly. If you`re an anti- mandate march on Facebook you can have 11,000 -- 12,000 people in your which is what happened with this exact march.
It`s only been live this group on Facebook for five weeks. They have 12,000 people who are raring to go, you know, coordinating buses, literally selling out hotels, the entire hotel in Virginia because they know they can`t go into D.C. because of the vaccine mandates.
So that`s the big difference here. If you`re anti-mandate you`re pretty good in the eyes of social media. If you`re anti-vaccine you can`t get anything going.
CAPEHART: Ok, so the anti-vax march that`s going to be here in D.C. on Sunday isn`t an anti-vax march to those folks because they don`t like to say that it`s anti-vaccine. I just want to have fun with that for a minute.
ZADROZNY: Can I just jump in and say that --
CAPEHART: Sure, Brandy.
ZADROZNY: -- this is like a well-worn tactic, right. Like since the early (INAUDIBLE), since the Jenny McCarthy era of anti-vaccine stuff they`ve known that anti-vax is jus like kryptonite, right. You don`t want to say it, the media will crush you.
So we`re health freedom, we`re parental freedom. Like there`s always been sort of couched -- not always -- it`s recently been couched in that and it`s like another page in the playbook that we`re seeing.
CAPEHART: So Brandy, we`re going to stick with you here because from your reporting on QAnon and this anti-vax movement. Talk about the through line we see of distrust in institutions.
ZADROZNY: That is exactly it. The anti-vaccine crowd and the QAnon crowd aren`t the same, right? And so we have to treat them differently. But there is some overlap, and that overlap is like you said, it`s this blanket distrust that you sort of throw over everything.
It`s a distrust in government institutions or medical establishment, just expertise in general. And instead what they replace that with are conspiracy theories.
And so if you`re in QAnon the conspiracy theory is that you have this shadowy cabal of child abusers. If you`re an anti-vaxer it`s a conspiracy theory that government health officials and doctors and everyone is lying to you to keep you sick or sell you medicine or whatever it is.
On at both ends of the road in both of those movements, you have people willing to sell you something to tell you the real truth and in some way profit off of that distrust.
CAPEHART: You know, Ben, picking up on this, what is the larger goal here of these groups beyond sowing -- beyond sowing doubt in vaccines or expressing their distrust in institutions?
COLLINS: You`re not going to believe this, Jonathan. It`s power, influence and money. It`s politics. That`s what this is about at this point. You know, a lot of these people in the last two years have developed these large fan bases.
[22:49:55]
COLLINS: The guy at the center of this whole thing, a guy named Robert Malone, he was on Joe Rogan`s show a couple of weeks ago and that`s what really spurred this whole thing on.
He was kind of, you know, a nonentity until the pandemic came around when he said basically these are not vaccines you can trust, take ivermectin instead. A lot of these people are people who push these alternative cures.
They`re tied into this group called the FLCCC that pushed hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin even into right now, they`re still recommending this over the vaccine itself. And why is that? You know, there are groups that sell -- like doctors` appointments, effectively online telemedicine doctors` appointments to get people hooked on it.
But you know, they were very simple things too. Some of this is just to get followers on Instagram or followers on your Rumbl account or your Telegram account.
And then from there you can do whatever you want with it. You can make a lot of money that way and maybe eventually you can run for office.
CAPEHART: Well, that`s frightening.
Ben Collins, Brandy Zadrozny -- thank you both very much for joining us tonight.
Coming up, right now Russian tanks are poised on the border of Ukraine. Former ambassador Michael McFaul will join us with the latest on the standoff, next.
[22:51:08]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAPEHART: For weeks, as many as 100,000 Russian troops have been stationed near the Ukraine-Russia border, alarming the international community that Russia might invade its neighbor.
Russian officials say they have no plans to invade Ukraine, but sometimes actions speak louder than words.
Today Secretary of State Antony Blinken issued a new warning to Russia after he held a 90-minute meeting with his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We`ve been clear, if any Russian military forces move across Ukraine`s border, that`s a renewed invasion. It will be met with swift, severe and a united response from the United States and our partners and allies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAPEHART: This week the Biden administration announced an additional $200 million in military aid for Ukraine and just a short time ago the first delivery arrived. According to the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, the shipment includes close to 200,000 pounds of lethal aid.
Joining us now is Michael McFaul, former U.S. Ambassador to Russia under President Obama. He is an MSNBC international affairs analyst.
Ambassador McFaul, thank you for being here. The United States and Russia have both agreed to continue talks in Ukraine. But is Russia entering these talks in good faith?
MICHAEL MCFAUL, MSNBC INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, nobody knows. (INAUDIBLE)
CAPEHART: I think we`re having trouble with your audio, Ambassador McFaul. I know you said no one really knows. Maybe Vladimir Putin knows. Try again, maybe we can hear you.
MCFAUL: Sorry about that. Can you hear me now?
CAPEHART: A little bit. You`re cutting in and out. Let`s give it a shot.
MCFAUL: I really apologize for that.
CAPEHART: You`re sounding good. Stay in that position. Stay in that position.
MCFAUL: Can you hear me now?
CAPEHART: Yes. Stay in that position
MCFAUL: Ok. Never had that happen before.
(INAUDIBLE) and he likes it that way because that creates leverage for him. We begin to negotiate amongst ourselves so -- President Macron -- his own - - (INAUDIBLE).
CAPEHART: Ambassador, is there any scenario in which Russia would de- escalate tensions? Or are you of the mind that it`s inevitable that Russia is going to take some action against Ukraine?
MCFAUL: No, I`m not in that camp. It`s -- (INAUDIBLE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:59:52]
CAPEHART: Our apologies there. We lost our connection to former U.S. Ambassador Michael McFaul but want to thank him for joining us tonight.
And that is tonight`s LAST WORD.
You can catch me on "THE SUNDAY SHOW" 10:00 a.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC. 10:00 a.m. until noon, just to be clear. prior written permission of VIQ Media Transcription, Inc. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>