Summary
Former Homeland Security Chief Tom Ridge speaks out. Former attorney and fixer for President Trump, Michael Cohen, discusses his former boss. Mary Trump discusses her uncle, President Trump. Authorities charge 13 men in a plot to kidnap Democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer.
Transcript
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER, who has an unbelievable lineup of guests tonight, starts right now.
Hi, Ari.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Hi, Nicolle. It's true. We're excited about some of them.
So, thank you. Nice to see you, as always.
I want to welcome everyone to a special edition of THE BEAT, where we are joined right now by Mary Trump, President Trump's niece, and the author of "Too Much and Never Enough: How My Family Created the World's Most Dangerous Man."
Mary, thank you for coming back on the show.
And to get right to it, I will ask you and the viewers to take a listen to how your uncle just described his COVID recovery today.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm feeling good, that really good, I mean, perfect. And we're ready to go. I'm ready to go, except the quarantine situation that you have for a little while after you get tested or whatever the procedure is.
But I'm ready to do -- I'm looking forward to doing the rallies.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MELBER: Your response to that assessment and his approach?
MARY TRUMP, AUTHOR, "TOO MUCH AND NEVER ENOUGH: HOW MY FAMILY CREATED THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS MAN": We haven't gotten this real stories from this White House or the doctors at Walter Reed since the beginning of this.
As far as I understand it, we still don't know when he last tested negative, or his last test before the positive test, which is crucial information, if you care about the well-being of other human beings. So, there's that.
So Donald is going to put the best face on this, no matter what. So, I don't know when we will actually know how he's feeling or what the course of this illness has been.
But the fact that he's talking about holding rallies is just another in a now endless stream of selfish acts that -- selfish isn't even a good enough word. It's unspeakable at this point, the lack of concern for the people around him. And I'm not entirely sure -- I continue to be astonished nobody is trying to put a stop to this. MELBER: Do you see anything here that matches or departs from the way he conducted himself around the family when it comes to something all families think about, which is protecting the people closest to you?
M. TRUMP: No, there was always a casual disregard for other people's well-being, and sometimes to devastating effect.
I saw it with my grandmother, and I saw it especially, of course, with my dad, whose alcoholism was treated like a moral failing, and he was essentially shunned for it.
MELBER: Did -- you have written about this to some degree, but it is relevant here, because the president is not using this moment, which his own advisers, some of whom maybe were out of touch with the patterns, but have now said in leaked quotes, well, oh, this could have been a chance to empathize with something everyone is going through, which I think is certainly true.
And if he went out and did that, we would report that, but far from it, his emphasis on fast recovery, on this being perfect, on don't let it dominate you, as if everyone is in the position he's in, which we're subsidizing, obviously, as taxpayers, the health care, and the emphasis on being perfect, as if having the frailty of something that the whole world is at risk for would itself be a negative.
Did that echo at all in the way that Donald Trump has also largely, in public view, avoided ever reckoning with that alcoholism that you mentioned, which, again, is something that people go through, not necessarily because of "personal weakness" -- quote, unquote?
M. TRUMP: This is a pattern that we have seen, I think, for a long time.
Donald, for whatever reason, has an opportunity to, even if it's only for political expedience, honestly, to be somebody who is leading the entire country, who is bringing us together, who is offering comfort.
And, time and time again, he cannot do it. First of all, he can't do it because, in this case, to admit that the virus has had a significant impact on him would be to admit weakness. And, secondly, he thrives in division and chaos. So, the idea of bringing people together, it just doesn't -- it's like a foreign language to him. It makes no sense and why would he do it?
MELBER: It's anathema, yes.
Mary, I want you to stay with me. We went right to you, as Nicolle Wallace mentioned, because we're excited to have your insights here.
But I also want to remind viewers here on what's not on display this week, the president tweeting, phoning into FOX, but he hasn't done a public appearance since he was seen just once live returning from the hospital Monday.
Instead, he has been working with aides to release these stagecrafted videos, government-produced, so the public doesn't really know how many takes they involved, whether they reflect Trump's current state of health, or any moments of low energy.
Trump himself says he's been very sick at one point during this period, doctors stressing, doctors stressing that he is still in the window of recovery. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: I went into the hospital a week ago, I was very sick. And I took this medicine. And it was incredible. It was incredible. I could have walked out the following day, sooner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Now, let's be clear for viewers. Medically, that's just a self-assessment, like using Twitter or a diary.
But it is the doctors who, of course, have the final word. They believe, based on what we know, that he would remain contagious with the virus. They have declined to provide any medical briefing updates since Monday, a secrecy that follows Donald Trump's approach to taxes, where he was hiding something that we later learned was, of course, this embarrassing deadbeat tax record. He was busted by "The New York Times."
He's also been hiding his health details long before this COVID scare. Remember that unexpected visit to Walter Reed last year? The White House still hiding those details. They said it was a rushed -- excuse me -- a routine physical. We think that, based on the public reporting, because it was so rushed, it didn't look very routine.
A public official's health is a matter of public interest. Now, regular citizens have their medical privacy protected under federal law and strict rules binding doctors. But in an echo of this unusual tax secrecy that I mentioned, Trump's also been demanding his current doctors sign these secrecy agreements, or NDAs, which would give him more leverage to sue them.
Two doctors flat-out refused, and thus have been prevented from treating him.
Mary, I mention all that because it's quite important to understand both the personal side and him as a human being, which he is -- and you have spoken to that as your uncle -- but he's also the sitting president and that level of secrecy.
What, if anything, do you see there in someone -- literally, again, an NDA is just an extra tool to sue someone. So, beyond the federal requirements, he wants to be able to potentially sue his doctors.
M. TRUMP: It's another instance in which, totally unwittingly, Donald has helped us uncover serious weaknesses and flaws in our systems.
This shouldn't be allowed to happen. He is in the Oval Office. His health is of concern to everybody on the planet. And I think, when you run for office at this level, you do have to forfeit some claim to privacy, because the impact of your physical or psychological health, or lack thereof, has an impact on the day-to-day lives of all Americans.
And I think we see how that's been unfolding.
MELBER: Yes.
And to build on that and go into the history here, something that I think is difficult, no matter what one thinks they understand about Donald Trump, is also the psychology, which you, of course, know a lot about, that, even though we can be skeptical, even cynical, even with the year we're living through, it is not that easy for human beings to hear something and assume it has zero weight.
So, whether it is a claim or an exaggeration or gossip that we may think, well, who knows how true that is, it is our tendency to believe some of it, that it infects, if you will, to use a word of the day or the year, our mind.
And it seems that Donald Trump has been hacking through that for a very long time, which is important now with the public health crisis.
But take a look at something we put together for your thoughts. We now know, facts, that he was completely running these businesses in the ground, bankruptcy, casinos. He was running out of money. It's all been exposed.
And yet, at the time, particularly with less sort of political static around it, many people heard him and believed he was partly telling the truth, or he must have had something up his sleeve. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: We think the Taj Mahal is beyond belief from any standpoint, and we think it's going to be a tremendous success.
It's going to be tremendously successful. It's going to be great for Atlantic City. It's going to be great for everybody.
Atlantic City is right now at a really great turning point. And it's going to go one way or the other. And I'm going to damn well make sure it goes the other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Do you see an echo here?
M. TRUMP: Yes.
And, actually, he was -- it turns out he was right. He did make it go the other.
Yes, of course, I see an echo. He, first of all, has mastered the idea of repetition, because so much goes on behind the scenes. And if you have all of the cameras and microphones in front of you, and you keep repeating what you want people to think of you or what you have accomplished, then you're going to be more successful at that.
But the pattern, of course, is that, while he was saying that, because of his really terrible decisions, bankrupted three of his casinos. The Taj Mahal basically cannibalized the earnings of his other two casinos, much to their detriment. So, it's all smoke and mirrors.
The problem, of course, has always been that, despite those failures, he's always had people buying him out of trouble, most notably my grandfather, who gave him in excess of $400 million during his lifetime, and the banks and the media.
It's also important for people to understand that, while Donald was -- businesses were filing for bankruptcy, he was receiving $450,000 a month in -- as an allowance from the banks just to cover his personal expenses.
MELBER: Now, did he do his chores for that allowance?
M. TRUMP: I'm going to leave that to you, but my guess would be no.
MELBER: Yes. Well, that's a real family question.
It's -- but it is remarkable, and even the language, even the way we think about it, because the utter hypocrisy -- and I say that as a factual observation -- you can have ideological reasons for supporting either party, but the hypocrisy of someone being associated with tax cuts, bootstraps, less government support, when we have just shown and you have just alluded to all of that support from others, the ultimate macro super welfare.
I mean, there isn't welfare good enough to even call it welfare.
Mary, I'd like you to stay with me as we bring in another expert doctor for this part of the conversation, because there's a serious issue of how this treatment can impact the sitting president. He's insisting on working during recovery, and that has even some of his own staff concerned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKA BRZEZINSKI, CO-HOST, "MORNING JOE": If you read about the drugs that he's on, they do appear to have some pretty significant side effects.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some White House staff members wondered whether Mr. Trump's behavior was spurred by a cocktail of drugs he's been taking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's hard to predict what's going on in Donald Trump's brain at any given moment, especially when it's juiced up on steroids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Mary Trump's with us, and we're joined by Dr. Nahid Bhadelia for this piece of it.
And, Doctor, without attempting to diagnose anyone from afar, just to root our understanding here, because this is serious stuff, what are the recommendations for a patient under this treatment right now?
And is there anything they should be careful about doing or refrain from doing?
DR. NAHID BHADELIA, NBC NEWS MEDICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Good evening, Ari.
So, the concern has been, as we said, President Trump is on dexamethasone, and that's a steroid that can cause, particularly in elderly patients who are hospitalized, confusion, delirium, psychosis. And that's generally in the setting of, if someone's getting a lot of other medications.
And we know, in this setting, President Trump has gotten other experimental, as well as not-yet-FDA-approved drugs.
The bigger concern, though, is the president still being within the window that the CDC describes as being potentially contagious to others. You know, 10 days, at least minimum of 10 days in mild to moderate cases, a person who has COVID-19 can still be infectious to others.
That period of infectiousness could be longer in someone who's received steroids, who's had a more severe course, who may be immunocompromised, all the other sort of factors that change it.
So the concern that I have sort of watching the president's movements during the White House, when we have a patient, COVID patient, in the hospital, we have to think twice, do we need this test, do we need to take this patient down to radiology, because we have to have all health care workers trained in personal protective equipment, we need to ensure the safety of the hospital.
Any time there's movement of a person who's infectious, there's a concern that people around that person may potentially expose themselves while they're putting on that personal protective -- while they're taking off that personal protective equipment or as that person is moving.
So it's both the president's potential current capacity of being contagious, but also potentially the fact that there might be side effects, not just from the drugs, but just to remind you, one -- this is a virus that's not just one of the lungs. It affects the brain, affects the heart, affects the blood vessels.
MELBER: Sure.
(CROSSTALK)
BHADELIA: And we have seen that in the setting of other viruses.
MELBER: Just to focus in, Doctor, would you say to someone, as a patient, well, don't make any big decisions right now, or not necessarily?
BHADELIA: Well, it's -- the doctor's orders are, if you have been recently in the hospital, to take it easy.
I definitely wouldn't put world-changing decisions in the hands of someone who's just been hospitalized with a moderate to severe illness.
MELBER: Mary, I'm curious, again, your views about that, because, again, as a family member, you have a lot of background knowledge here, the ability to -- which is something any chief executive, certainly, the president's supposed to have on paper, the ability to process expert information, to know when you know less and when you need to defer, while also, of course, when you're in good condition, you are the ultimate decision-maker.
M. TRUMP: Yes.
And I don't say this to be flip at all, but Donald can't really do that well in the best of circumstances. He's always had a very difficult time processing information.
So, this -- no matter what's going on with the meds, just his being ill alone is going to exacerbate that. And I again continue to be amazed that people around him who allegedly care about him aren't intervening more strongly, because, not only is he putting other people significantly at risk, who do not have a choice about whether or not to be around him; he's putting himself at risk.
And you would think that people in his inner circle would care about that.
MELBER: And just briefly, Mary, there's also a wider discussion about succession.
And we have covered that, I should mention, about both candidates. We were discussing just last night and the moderator brought up at the debate that Joe Biden would finish his first term, if elected, at 82.
And there's something a little grim about this, no matter who you're discussing, but these are matters of state, not just what's comfortable to discuss.
I'm curious what you think, your knowledge of your uncle, what effect, if any, it has on him to see, for example, today Speaker Pelosi raising the notion of the 25th Amendment -- we have more that later this hour -- as well as his own aides, as we just showed some of the reporting, concerned about it?
Does that, in your view, make him more or less likely to correct course?
M. TRUMP: Well, he will never course-correct.
Course-correcting means admitting you have done something wrong. So, that's not going to happen. He will double down. He will continue to be the best COVID survivor who ever lived, and anybody else who contracts the disease and doesn't beat it is a loser. He will keep doing that.
And he will resist any calls to step back or step down, as long as he is somewhat cognizant. So, I don't expect that he would agree to any kinds of changes, no matter how ill he is.
MELBER: And, finally Mary, because I appreciate being generous with your time, and, as we have discussed the last time I was able to talk with you, these aren't easy things anyway, for a lot of reasons.
But I'm curious, when you take this all in -- and everyone's going through 2020 -- do you feel like, OK, you have got a handle on it, and we go forward, or is it ever surreal for you still to wake up and see that your uncle is president and acting in this manner?
M. TRUMP: It's not as bad as it was the first few months.
But, yes, it's incredibly surreal. I think it's surreal for everybody, because, especially the last few, I don't know, weeks, months, years, you step away for 10 minutes, and then, suddenly, the entire calculus is changed.
I mean, how many breaking news stories have we had every single day for the last two weeks, at least? So, it's surreal. It's exhausting. And I think it's taking a toll on the American people, because we keep not being able to focus on things that really matter to us, because Donald keeps changing the subject and obfuscating, and he's got a lot of help doing that as well.
And we need the truth. We need to know these things about his health and how his illness and his being infectious are affecting other people, including the people who work for him in the White House around him. He still refuses to wear a mask, apparently.
MELBER: Yes. Yes. And we have reported on that.
And, also, he still refuses to appear in any unstructured environment, and it would be fine if he was just recovering and convalescing. But he, as with other matters, is trying to have it both ways, as we documented tonight, not appearing in public, but releasing clipped videos, which may have been just the one burst of cogent energy, or not, of the day. We don't know yet.
Mary Trump, as always, I want to thank you for giving us your time.
Dr. Bhadelia, thank you for your medical expertise.
We have our shortest break of the hour, 30 seconds.
Michael Cohen's here when we return. And Speaker Pelosi dials up the heat on Donald Trump.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: It's a busy day in America and on THE BEAT.
We are thrilled to tell you we are now joined by Michael Cohen, Donald Trump's former lawyer and executive. He's also hosting a new podcast, "Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen," and he's the author of the book you see here, "Disloyal."
Michael, serious times. Thanks for being here, sir.
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER ATTORNEY/FIXER FOR DONALD TRUMP: Good to see you, Ari.
MELBER: Good to see you.
As all news viewers know, you spent a long time with Donald Trump, behind the scenes, dealing with all sorts of sensitive matters. You guys then ended up cross-purposes. You were incarcerated.
And here we are with Donald Trump speaking openly...
COHEN: Thanks for letting me know that.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: Well, just a little context. You will see why it's relevant.
Whatever you did and went through -- and we discussed how a judge ruled that some of it was retaliatory by the president's officials last time -- I think it's relevant to look today -- this is not a joke, this is not a drill -- with what you went through and what the judge ruled, as the president says on FOX Business that he wants opponents, not beaten at the ballot box; he wants them indicted.
Take a look.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: Unless Bill Barr and dates these people for crimes, the greatest political crime in the history of our country, then we're going to get little satisfaction, unless I win.
These people should be indicted. This was the greatest political crime in the history of our country. And that includes Obama, and it includes Biden.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MELBER: How should Americans view this, as they make up their minds in this election, Michael?
COHEN: Yes, they should be very afraid.
First of all, I want to correct you on something, Ari. It was not part of it was retaliatory. All of it was retaliatory. Judge Hellerstein was incredibly clear when he said that Attorney General Bill Barr, along with Bureau of Prisons, the Department of Corrections, and Adam Pakula from the Department of Corrections, that this was retaliatory, and demanded my immediate return the following day.
So, that's the first.
The second is, if you go back to the clip that you just played, in the event that Trump loses, this is going to be the greatest crime. He's already setting the stage, which is what Donald does. He sets the stage for what he's expecting to do. And that's to bring out Bill Barr, in order to bring an action against anybody that he deems fit.
I mean, it's really not something that you would hear from a president. It's more something that you would hear from a dictator or an autocrat.
MELBER: So, you're saying, Michael -- this is, I think, important.
You're saying, based on your knowledge of how he works, this is not just more chatter. We just were talking to his niece about distraction, which he also does. You're saying this is part of a plan. If he doesn't get what he wants out of the election results, he wants to push Barr to what?
COHEN: To start indicting people, specifically, I guess, people working at the ballots.
You will recall, Ari, that I said just over 19 months ago, when I testified before the House Oversight Committee, that there will never be a peaceful transition of power by Trump. And I was right.
And everybody's using the same exact language. Nineteen months ago, I said it, because I understand Trump, Trump has tasted what he deems to be the ultimate power, not the ultimate power for the American people, but the ultimate power for himself.
And he has no interest and no intent on giving it up without a hell of a fight. And now he has Bill Barr on his side, who is willing to do whatever he said, i.e., putting me in prison, because I refused to waive my First Amendment constitutional right and not publish the book.
But, more than that, he's reckless with power. And that's really the big problem.
MELBER: Yes, and that's a part of all of this as we head towards the second debate and other news we're seeing today out of Michigan and the serious violence and alleged plots to kidnap people.
So, we're going to get to all of that.
On the COVID front...
COHEN: Didn't he already say, also, Ari -- Ari, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
MELBER: No, go ahead.
COHEN: But didn't he say that he's not -- didn't he say he's not going to do the second debate, because he doesn't believe in virtual debates?
MELBER: He -- well, yes, he said...
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: He's going to host a rally?
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: He's claiming he won't do virtual. He did virtual with FOX News.
But your view of that negotiating tactic?
COHEN: Well, he did it once before, you may remember, and then he claimed that he had raised $6 million for the veterans, which was not true.
And thank goodness to some fine journalists, in order to get them to fish out the money that was in the Trump Foundation.
But, no, I believe that he does not want to debate. He did a terrible job the last time, so why put himself through that, when he's already down in the poll?
MELBER: Very interesting.
I also want to ask you about -- of course, we mentioned Trump's penchant for secrecy, limiting his medical care. That meant that two qualified doctors were literally barred from treating him because they balked at these secrecy NDA contracts, a pattern from taxes to how Trump has deployed, of course, our guest tonight, Michael Cohen, who was then his personal lawyer arranging NDAs as hush payments to Stormy Daniels.
Trump was so secretive, he hid his own name on the very contract designed to protect him. Recall he used this pseudonym, David Dennison, and still refused to sign. And the past matters.
Even when those measures failed, and it all became public, a turning point, as Michael I'm sure you remember, was Trump telling a lie that the evidence later rebutted. He claimed he didn't know what was going on and everyone should just ask Michael. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: You have to ask Michael Cohen. Michael is my attorney. And you will have to ask Michael.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Michael, we know, I mentioned, that he did know what was going on.
What do you see as the point here for voters to assess, secrecy on taxes, secrecy on health care, secrecy on his personal dealings?
COHEN: Well, I think you forgot one very important thing that I talk about quite a bit in the book "Disloyal," the fact that he tasked me in order to keep his grades, starting from New York Military Academy, to Fordham, to University of Pennsylvania, and to provide them with threats of significant economic ruin in the event that they failed to keep his documents -- forget about anybody else -- his specific educational documents secret, and that -- they do that for everybody anyway.
But he wanted to make doubly sure, which is exactly the same thing that's going on here at Walter Reed. I mean, doctors do not release information. We know we have this HIPAA. And they just don't unilaterally release information.
He just wanted to make sure that everybody knows that, if you speak about my medical condition -- and the only reason he's afraid, because he's in horrific shape. He has high blood pressure, high cholesterol. There is probably a whole slew of issues with him. And that would contradict what he had one of the other doctors come out earlier and say, that Donald Trump is the fittest president that we have ever had.
MELBER: Did you think his grades were low?
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: ... jogging.
I know for a fact that they were low.
MELBER: Yes. So, that goes to the basic inference here, which is, you're hiding the things that look bad.
In that back-and-forth litigation, ultimately, about the NDAs of Donald Trump and the hush payments, you, of course, famously sparred -- and viewers remember -- with Michael Avenatti.
I want to play for you some of what he's said. Michael Avenatti, of course, at the time, was litigating against you. He had a lot of big talk about problems that he thought Trump and you would face legally. And he spoke out as well, I'm sure you remember -- sooner or later, you learned of it -- during your ordeal. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL AVENATTI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR STORMY DANIELS: I think time is running out on Michael Cohen.
MELBER: You're saying Michael Cohen, in your view, is likely to be arrested by the end of the summer?
AVENATTI: Yes.
Michael Cohen is neither a hero nor a patriot. He lied for months on end about his criminal conduct and the role of the president of the United States.
This is an outrage. He deserves every day of the 36-month sentence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Mr. Avenatti has since spent time in prison awaiting trial. He's facing some pretty, pretty serious charges himself.
Your response?
COHEN: Well, as you all know, my charges stemmed from lying to Congress and campaign finance violation, amongst other things where I pled guilty to a tax evasion charge that would not be a tax evasion charge under any circumstance, other than the fact that I was Michael Cohen and they needed their conviction.
And they needed to put something in that was not related to Donald Trump, unlike Mr. Avenatti, who stole money from people. I have never owed $1 to anybody. A judge himself even stated there's no economic loss to any individual or any institution ever in my life.
And mine is all simply because of my proximity to Trump. His problems stem from his own corrupt behavior. And I -- despite the fact that he was happy that I was going to prison, wanted to me to do all 36 months, I don't wish that for him. I don't wish it for anybody.
Now, prison is a terrible place. I mean, it destroys family. It destroys your soul. So I certainly don't wish that on anybody.
Now, I don't know the full extent of his charges. I do know he stupidly tried to go after Nike. I mean, for God's sakes, for a guy who's bright, that's not the smartest move. On top of that, if he stole money from people, which he did, then what he should do is, he should pay it back and make amends.
And I'm sure that, if you give him the opportunity, I'm sure -- look, what's interesting about the Michael Avenatti case is, the lawyer that had me released the second time, Danya Perry, who's an amazing lawyer, happens to be his lawyer who had him released from prison as well.
So, Michael Avenatti and I at least share one thing in common.
MELBER: Yes. Well, you share potentially a couple things.
I appreciate your point and your nuance about the humanity of this, which everyone can forget, in politics, in media, et cetera.
I'm curious. When you watched Mike Pence last night, what do you see, as someone who yourself at one point was offering defenses of Donald Trump? You have evolved. We had you and others join us the other week and discuss that process.
Do you see Mike Pence as someone who would ever rethink this period? Do you see him as a lost cause?
COHEN: Yes, Mike Pence is a lost cause.
Yesterday wasn't a debate. It was the debacle. I mean, the fact that he felt that it was his right to overspeak in terms of Kamala Harris -- he bold-faced lied. I mean, I sat there watching this debate, as Mike Pence looked into the camera, and, in a very soft voice, he sat there, and he just lied to the American people, one lie after another after another.
And he's learned very well from Donald how to project his and the -- his administration and Donald's administration onto somebody else. And I just -- I thought it was an amazing thing to watch.
But I think he's an absolute lost cause. And there is no way that he's going to have the backbone to stand up to Trump. He just doesn't have it. He didn't have it when Trump picked him, and he certainly doesn't have it four years later.
MELBER: Really, really interesting getting your views on a lot of this stuff. And you have been so close to it.
Michael, please stay with me, because I have a couple of things I want to get to with you. We just are going to do a quick break.
Michael Cohen stays.
I also want to tell viewers, later in the show tonight, another very special guest, our live interview with the country's very first homeland security secretary, with warnings about what we're facing and how Donald Trump needs to shape up.
A lot more ahead -- when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Turning to major news, as the feds make this legal move in Michigan today, indicting 13 men in a plot to kidnap Democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer, as well as others.
Authorities say the individuals are linked to militias, the rest growing out of an FBI probe of how these groups go beyond words to actively plot the violent overthrow of the government, seven men arrested on state charges amidst these allegations. The goal was to start a -- quote -- "civil war." Six also face federal charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police arrested six individuals, conspired to kidnap the governor from her vacation home in the Western District of Michigan before the November election.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The alleged conspirators are extremists who undertook a plot to kidnap a sitting governor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: This is an extremely disturbing story.
It's an -- an allegation, I should say, of an active plot to kidnap and potentially hurt a chief executive of the state, who responded today, while also rebuking President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): This should be a moment for national unity, where we all pull together as Americans.
Instead, our head of state has spent the past seven months fomenting anger and giving comfort to those who spread fear and hatred and division.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Today's charges do not legally link this plot to Donald Trump.
But, as that governor just noted there, this president has used his influence to literally encourage violence, from his first campaign to his recent unprecedented public defense of the Wisconsin man indicted for murder at recent racial justice protests.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. TRUMP: Knock the crap out of him, would you? Seriously.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
D. TRUMP: OK, just knock the hell -- I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees.
QUESTION: Are you going to condemn the actions of vigilantes like Kyle Rittenhouse?
D. TRUMP: He was trying to get away from them, I guess, it looks like, and he fell. And then they very violently attacked him.
Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I will tell you what. I will tell you what. Somebody's got to do something about Antifa.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Hear on THE BEAT, Donald Trump's former lawyer Michael Cohen is back with us.
Michael, we didn't know when we first planned to speak with you, of course, that something this serious would break today.
How do you view it in the context of what everyone has noted is the unprecedented embrace of both violent rhetoric and defense of alleged violence by Donald Trump?
COHEN: Look in my book, "Disloyal," the first probably 70, 80 pages, I describe in great detail Donald Trump as a mob boss.
Donald Trump didn't go out and tell these people to kidnap the governor. He didn't tell them to do violence with, whether it's explosives, firearms, whatnot.
But what he does, he speaks in code. And that's something I talk about throughout the book. You don't need to actually tell somebody to do it, before which you create this belief that this is what Donald wants us to do, we're doing it for him, and even though he didn't specifically give us the order, he did it in a way that's latent, but it's out there.
And that's just how Donald Trump thought, like a mob boss.
MELBER: Yes. And, as you say, that involves both, according to your observations, of kind of intent to get it done and a kind of awareness of guilt to try to avoid culpability. And it's important stuff.
You mentioned the book. And I will remind viewers, the memoir is "Disloyal." It's out now.
Trump lawyer Michael Cohen, back with us for two segments, appreciate your time, sir.
We're going to fit in a break, but, up ahead, we turn to the other big news day, the speaker of the House discussing the president's allegedly altered state and the line of succession and the powers to remove a sitting president.
This is where we're at.
Also, new worries about national security amidst Trump's COVID diagnosis, the very first homeland security director in America making the debut on THE BEAT next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Welcome back to THE BEAT. We have been going through a lot.
And, right now, we turn to something that you really hear more about in pop culture depictions of White House intrigue than something that officials actually discuss in public.
But this has gone from the writers room, if you will, all the way up to the speaker of the House today, a reference to the very high-stakes section of the United States Constitution which can provide for presidential removal IN extreme medical circumstances, the 25th Amendment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: David Palmer is unfit to continue as president of the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: You don't like one of my policy decisions, the 25th Amendment does not give you the right to reverse that policy, under the pretense of saying I have a disability.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: They're invoking the 25th Amendment. You will be removed from office.
KIEFER SUTHERLAND, ACTOR: This is ridiculous!
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): The president is, shall we say, in an altered state right now. So I don't know how to answer for his behavior.
His disassociation from reality would be funny, if it weren't so deadly.
Come here tomorrow. We're going to be talking about the 25th Amendment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The speaker says, we're going to talk about it.
I'm joined now by the former Republican Governor of Pennsylvania Tom Ridge. He was also the first ever secretary of the newly formed Homeland Security Department. And he co-chairs Vote Safe.
Despite the Republican credentials I mentioned, he is a public endorser of Joe Biden.
Thank you for being here, sir.
TOM RIDGE, FORMER U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF: Ari, it's a great pleasure.
As I was waiting, the screen saver before this conversation with you and your audience, there is a flag. Our flag is rippling in a gentle breeze at the Capitol.
And I got to tell you, I kept thinking of, of, by and for the people. What a unique country we live in. And we are under some unique circumstances, with both a pandemic and failed presidential leadership.
So, it's good to be -- it's good to be with you.
MELBER: Good to have you.
I hear you on all the above. And a patriotic screen saver may be better than the old ones, if people are old enough to remember the flying toasters or the spam. A good American flag screen saver is even better.
I'm curious, sir, your response to something that is quite unusual, but we are in this unusual period, which is the speaker wasn't very specific, but she says tomorrow they're going to be discussing the 25th Amendment. Your view on that and all of these issues around President Trump's leadership?
RIDGE: Well, I'm not prepared to discuss the speaker's medical diagnosis of the president's health or mental condition. I will let others with greater expertise than I have.
I was first made aware of it, frankly, with a screenshot that you announced you're going to have that conversation with her.
MELBER: Yes.
RIDGE: I'm working. I have been working much of the day trying to provide a public anecdote with a coalition of Republicans and Democrats around the fraudulent disinformation or misinformation campaign the president's been running, when he says the only way he can lose if there would be fraud on November 3 at the election
So, I will leave her to have her press conference tomorrow. But -- I'm right now, I'm more concerned about...
MELBER: Yes.
RIDGE: ... trying to do public anecdote to these un-American, unpresidential, unsubstantiated -- there's no historical antecedent.
It's corrosive. It's undermining the legitimacy, sowing seeds of doubt in the most fundamental institution of a government of, by and for the people. And that's our elections. And...
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: Well, Governor, let me read from that, because I appreciate, and I think viewers understand, your discretion about something as sensitive as the 25th. And, as I mentioned, it's news the speaker is even bringing it up, but we don't have yet her point or her plan.
On the other important issue you raise, let's get into that a little bit.
Here's "The Washington Post" saying the DOJ under Trump has election fraud guides that could allow boosting Trump's exaggerated claims, new guidance with -- quote -- "an exception to the general noninterference with elections policy, prosecutors suddenly allowed to investigate misconduct by federal officials or employees administrating an aspect of the voting process."
This includes Postal Service workers, which has been a flash point.
Do you see this as a sign that Donald Trump is already trying to mess with a free and fair election?
RIDGE: Clearly. I don't understand. I guess I'd asked the attorney general, what's the antecedent? What's the evidence you have before you now to make such a public statement and try to undermine, if not suppress the vote?
I mean, I know that this is a -- maybe a coordinated effort. I think -- I am told it might be the first time in 40 years that the attorney general of the United States has ever done anything like that.
When you normally look at voter fraud, it's after the election, when you have clear, unmistakable evidence when you conduct an investigation.
And I think the very interesting anecdote, the Heritage Foundation, known as a pretty conservative think tank, looked at 250 million absentee ballots cast, I think for the past 20 years, in presidential election. And I think they found 200 cases of individual fraud.
So, this whole notion that there's a historical antecedent or a basis for even the claim, the assertion that there would be this massive fraud that would deny the president, who right now is 12 or 14 or 15 points behind in every legitimate, reasonable poll the country, is, as we borrow phrase from the president, it's fake news.
(LAUGHTER)
RIDGE: And it's very sad, because it undermines, it undermines the other (AUDIO GAP) from time to time is Ben Franklin.
When asked at the Constitutional Convention, is it a monarchy or a republic, he said, it's a republic, if you can keep it.
Well, one the worst way -- one the easiest ways to undermine this incredible system of government we have, this republic, is to undermine, sow seeds of doubt about the legitimacy of the electoral process.
MELBER: Right.
RIDGE: I would tell you this.
If I'm in the intelligence community in one of our enemies around the world, this might be one of the best and most effective disinformation or misinformation campaigns I could come up with. And the proponent happens to be the president of the United States.
MELBER: Yes.
And that's, again, for folks tuning in and out here, running through, what you just heard, that this sounds like a foreign disinformation campaign to undermine our election, and yet it emanates as the danger from within from the president, Donald Trump, and that's being said, of course, by a former Bush security official and a former Republican governor, because it's not just about parties, that you're talking about what your concerns about the evidence shows.
I want to get you on one other thing, given your expertise, sir.
Go ahead. I'm sorry?
RIDGE: No, that's all right. I don't mean to interrupt you, Ari.
Country first.
MELBER: Hey...
RIDGE: Nobody is born a Republican or Democrat. They get there by virtue of beliefs and associations the like -- before you even registered, you're an American.
And I think it's about time. And the vice president, Biden, himself has talked about that a lot.
MELBER: Yes.
RIDGE: And he's the first Democrat I have ever voted for, and appreciate you mentioning that to your audience.
MELBER: Sure. No, I think it context.
And that brings us to the final issue, which is the facts here. This is -- this is serious stuff. You dealt with the threat matrix. You see all kinds of stuff in the kind of jobs you have that we don't always see in real time.
But when the president of the United States is asked about white supremacy and about these threats, when we see these arrests in Michigan today that we have reported, when we look at something that you used to oversee, these annual threat assessments, DHS says 2019 was the most lethal year for domestic violent extremism in the U.S. since the mid-'90s, back when you had those other militia scares and the Oklahoma City bombing.
And among the violent extremists, white supremacists did half of the lethal attacks and are responsible for the majority of deaths.
How important is it that America understand that this discussion of white supremacy, where the president and others stand in condemning and confronting it, has a death toll right now in America?
RIDGE: Well, first of all, I think it's important to note that we tip our hat to the FBI for undercovering this.
And I think, under these circumstances, the president certainly likes to tweet, but I think these arrests and the extraordinary work that the FBI has done -- and I hope they don't reveal too much about how they were able to uncover this plot.
But I think I would ask my president -- and even though I didn't vote for him, he's still my full -- he's still my president.
I want a full-throated condemnation, an aggressive tweetstorm that condemns these men, their actions and everybody that thinks and would act like them.
And we shouldn't be surprised, we shouldn't be surprised that -- I think it was in April or May. The president called on some of the protesters, by the way, armed, as they were confronting health care workers saving lives in Michigan.
He called on them to liberate Michigan.
MELBER: Right. Yes. Fair.
(CROSSTALK)
RIDGE: Several times later than that, he called for other groups to liberate their respective states, which, by the way, were governed by Democrats.
So, I think, obviously, it's time for the president to step up. This is a president who said...
MELBER: Right.
RIDGE: ... when there were white supremacists, there are really some good people among the white supremacists.
He's never -- he's sown racial, political, religious division. He's ignored experts. He has -- it's just -- as I have said before, it's -- I think voting is not a privilege. I think it's a responsibility.
So, the first thing I say to everyone in your audience, vote. And people know my preference. And I want them to exercise theirs.
MELBER: Governor Ridge, among other things, and among your expertise I mentioned, you also are a pretty persuasive Republican for Biden.
It's good to meet you in this form. I hope you will come back on THE BEAT. And some of the quotes you said tonight could make their own screen savers.
Thank you, sir.
RIDGE: Ari, it's good to be with you. Thank you very much.
MELBER: Absolutely.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Thanks for joining us here on THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER.
We will be back tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. Eastern. We have some special guests on Friday. I will tell you more about that later.
But "THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID" is up after this break.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.END
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