Summary
Progressives demand an aggressive counterattack on voter suppression efforts. The Trump Organization criminal probe is examined. A major breakthrough occurs in the Capitol riot probe involving the far right Oath Keepers group.
Transcript
JASON JOHNSON, MSNBC HOST: Welcome to THE BEAT. I`m Jason Johnson, in for Ari Melber.
We have a lot to get to tonight, including news on the Trump Organization criminal probe. I will talk to a former Manhattan DA prosecutor who says Trump Organization CFO Allen Weisselberg is playing -- quote -- "Russian roulette."
But we begin with surging new pressure from progressives, demanding an aggressive counterattack, as the GOP blocks voting rights and a riot and treason commission, while slowing down the Joe Biden jobs plan.
Today, less than 24 hours after Senate Republicans blocked voting rights reform, activists marching from the Supreme Court to the office of Democratic Senator Joe Manchin, multiple arrests, including the Reverends Jesse Jackson and William Barber, protesters telling Manchin, who keeps calling for bipartisanship, to get tougher in the fight against McConnell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I`m not seeing from Manchin is that higher sense of purpose to put the needs of his constituents before the needs of other interests.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From what I have seen, the bipartisanship is not working. There is no bipartisanship. There`s obstructionism. And, I mean, you have to get rid of the filibuster to be able to get the policies that we need passed.
QUESTION: Manchin has said he`s not going to do...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. And that`s why we`re here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: This is rapidly narrowing into a stark, unavoidable choice for the Democrats.
As "The Post" puts it, they`re -- quote -- "almost out of options on voting rights" and other agenda items, unless they bust through McConnell`s obstruction by overhauling the Senate`s filibuster rules. McConnell already said publicly he is 100 percent focus on stopping Joe Biden and his actions speak even louder, today, another White House meeting with a bipartisan group of senators, amid reports of stalled talks.
Biden today moving to curb gun violence, the only way apparently he can right now, through executive action, which don`t require any GOP votes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, the department is announcing, as I just did, a major crackdown on stem the flow of guns used to commit violent crimes. We have an opportunity to come together now as Democrats and Republicans, as fellow Americans to fulfill the first responsibility in government and our democracy, to keep each other safe.
This shouldn`t be a red or blue issue. It`s an American issue. We`re not changing the Constitution. We`re enforcing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Tonight, progressives calling on Biden to go faster, to go bigger, to go harder, and to do it alone, without Republicans, if need be.
Joining me now is vice president of communications and strategy at the Center for American Progress Daniella Gibbs Leger, former Chairman of the Democratic National Committee Howard Dean, and national affairs correspondent for "The Nation" Joan Walsh.
Thank you all so much for joining me this evening.
Her new article, Joan`s new article is on the Democratic strategy on voting rights.
Joan, I`m going to start with you. But we`re not going to talk about voting rights. But, first, let`s talk a little bit about the Republicans in Congress.
I have got to play you this clip of Matt Gaetz getting owned, as the kids would say, by Secretary Lloyd Austin when it comes to issues of critical race theory. I want your thoughts on the other side of this clip.
OK, we`re still working on a clip. So we`re going to come to that.
Joan, I will start with this, then. Look, right now, it doesn`t appear that the Democrats have that many chances to get this right, right? They have got six months until the end of the year to figure out something with voting rights. What have you just written? What is your suggestion for the best strategy going forward for a Democratic Party that seems to be fighting themselves as much as they`re actually fighting the opposition?
JOAN WALSH, MSNBC ANALYST: Well, Jason, I`m really glad to see progressives digging in, and I`m really moved to see Reverend Barber and Reverend Jackson out there getting arrested.
I would have liked to see more Democratic lawmakers, to be honest. It`s too much to ask to have Republican lawmakers. But I regretfully concluded in this article that the Democrats don`t really have many options.
They cannot do filibuster reform with 48 votes. And that`s what they have right now. They don`t have 50 votes. With 50, they could add Vice President Harris. They could get it done. Without getting Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema to go along with it, it`s a really tough lift.
So what I saw yesterday, and I watched all day, I watched on C-SPAN, was Democrats doing a kind of performative strategy. OK, Joe Manchin, are you going to see that we will not get 50 votes even to open debate? They got him a little bit of the way. They got him to actually vote to proceed on debate on a bill he`s already said he opposes.
So that was a teeny, tiny victory. But that`s really all we got yesterday. Manchin walked out of the hearing, where -- excuse me -- the vote, where we saw what Republicans were doing, and said he`s still for the filibuster, it protects democracy.
I don`t think so. But I don`t know that Joe Manchin has some kind of -- people are like -- I`m sorry. Excuse me. Joe Biden. People -- he should be whipping them. How`s he going to whip them? What can he hold over Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema`s head?
I`m just not sure. I feel like it`s a little bit -- there`s too many demands on Biden, as though he could simply snap a finger and get them into line, and he`s just not doing that.
JOHNSON: Yes, there`s a presumption sometimes that Joe Biden can wave a magic wand, wave the magic stick and suddenly everything is going to be OK. He does not have that power. He does not have that kind of majority.
Daniella, I want to -- we`re going to switch. I have switched the cups around a bit. I`m going to take the clip that I was going to share with Joan. I`m going to share it with you. I want to get your -- oh, OK, we don`t have the clip. We will move ahead.
(LAUGHTER)
JOHNSON: So, Daniella -- this is amazing.
Daniella, I got to ask you. This is the other part that sort of confuses me about this current fight that the Democrats seem to be having. What is it about current protests that we`re seeing that`s actually going to end up making a difference?
Look, I can understand, if you`re dealing with a mayor. You can go to the mayor`s office, you can complain to him or her and say, hey, look, I want you to gone. I want you to do something about street lamps and everything else like that.
But these protests that are happening right now, is that really going to move Joe Manchin, a guy who I have made it very clear I don`t think is going to get reelected? He doesn`t really have to worry about money. And Kyrsten Sinema, whenever she`s putting together those word salad op-eds, she doesn`t seem like she`s going to move either.
What do you think is the value of any of these protest marches?
DANIELLA GIBBS LEGER, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: I understand the point that you`re making.
But I think it is valuable to show that there are people who are very passionate about this issue, and that the American people support this bill, they support voting rights, they support something getting done. And just because, right now, Joe Manchin believes that he can somehow pull some Republicans to support something -- and, meanwhile, we have Republicans actually showing us who they really are -- the majority of the American people want this done.
So I think it is important for people to go and protest and make their voice heard. And yes, yesterday was a little performative. But I am putting on my optimist hat today. And I`m going to say that this is just the first step. It`s going to be a painful process. But this had to be done in order to start showing Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema that, like, eventually, if you can`t show us where you`re going to get those Republican votes from, we`re going to have to pursue other options.
The Democrats have a limited amount of time to get things done. I hope they all understand and realize that.
JOHNSON: Of all the sorting hats at Hogwarts, the optimist hat is one I have never worn. So I`m glad that you had that on for us today.
(LAUGHTER)
JOHNSON: Governor Dean, so I do have a clip for you. This is a clip of Mitch McConnell talking about what he is and is not about to do. Want your thoughts on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): One hundred percent of our focus is on stopping this new administration.
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO (R-WY): I want to make Joe Biden a one-half-term president. And I want to do that by making sure they no longer have House, Senate, White House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: So, Governor Dean, look, you have experience with this, having headed the Democratic Party, being a governor.
When you have an opposition party that`s whole policy positions is basically, we will do nothing, how do you use this to your advantage? Because clearly this isn`t moving Joe Manchin. Clearly, it`s not moving Kyrsten Sinema. Is this just something that you have got to make the case to the public in Kentucky?
Like, how do Democrats work with this, when Mitch McConnell is like, I`m not moving?
HOWARD DEAN, FORMER DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: It`s going to work in other ways.
Look, the Republican Party`s loyalty is to themselves, not to the country. And that`s what`s so discouraging about this.
JOHNSON: Right.
DEAN: McConnell has always said -- he said the same thing about President Obama. President Obama was handily reelected.
I disagree with you. I think Manchin will be reelected. He -- Manchin is in the most Republican state in the country right now. And I think his people like that. I think Sinema will lose in a primary and will be not heard from again, if this continues. And sooner or later, that`s going to dawn on her. Or maybe she just doesn`t like being in the Senate. I don`t know.
But this is really a major problem. I think, as usual, the Democrats have gone into a fight where the Republicans using AK-47s, and we have a Swiss army knife, to quote a renegade judge. And this is not going to work for the country. We have got to get a lot tougher.
The Democrats have never been tough enough with the Republicans. And I think Biden`s actually playing this quite well, because the Americans -- the reason Raphael Warnock is in the Senate Jon Ossoff is in the Senate is because the Georgia voters decided this was disgusting on the part of the Republicans.
So I think we`re going to pick up three or four seats in the Senate in the bi-elections, Ohio, North Carolina, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania. These are all seats we can pick up and we should pick up. And then the question is what happens in the House. and I`m not familiar enough with where the races are there. It`ll be tight.
I think the American people are disgusted with the Republicans, and the polls show it.
JOHNSON: I don`t quite share your optimism, Governor Dean.
But, look, realistically speaking -- I got to follow up on this -- the concern that a lot of people have is that, yes, there are winnable seats that the Democrats have right now, as you mentioned, Ohio, Pennsylvania, all these different kinds of places.
But if voting reform isn`t passed, if some variation of the John Lewis Act or the For the People Act isn`t passed, the chances of actually being able to win those races is diminished. So, are you saying you still think the Democrats can pick up seats in the Senate next year, even if they can`t get any voting reform done because of Manchin and Sinema?
DEAN: I do think so, because the swing voters in the suburbs don`t like this kind of stuff.
These are people who might have often voted Republican, but this Republican Party is essentially treacherous. They do not value the United States of America as it is now. They want to run an autocracy. And I don`t think the republic believes that`s a good idea.
You know who else doesn`t believe it`s a good idea -- and this was a critical group in the civil rights movement -- is the business community. Corporations despise this...
JOHNSON: This is true.
DEAN: ... because instability and dictatorship is not a good formula for making money in a capitalist society.
So I do expect the businesspeople would come down hard on this. I also expect legal -- a fair amount of legal repercussions. Georgia has essentially reinstituted Jim Crow.
JOHNSON: Right.
DEAN: Now, that`s shocking, because Georgia is probably one of the most advanced states in the South.
I think Kemp is in great danger of losing reelection, because people just don`t -- people do not want this kind of stuff. They`re tired of extremism on the Republican side. The Republican stand for nothing, except for stopping Joe Biden from being president.
Well, that really worked well for them against Obama. Let`s see how it works against Biden and the Democrats in the bi-elections.
JOHNSON: With that in mind, Joe, we`re going to go back to that original clip.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: This is what the Republican Party -- we found it. We dug through all the archives, Dewey Decimal and everything.
(LAUGHTER)
JOHNSON: We`re going to play the original clip and get your thoughts on the other side.
WALSH: Great. I`m ready.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I don`t know what the what the issue of critical race theory is and what the relevance here in -- with the department. We do not teach critical race theory. We don`t embrace critical race theory.
And I think that`s a spurious conversation.
I trust my leadership, from top to bottom, that they will give me fair and balanced and unvarnished input. And for you to say that people are telling me what they want to hear -- what I want to hear, I get it, but I`m smart enough to know that..
REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): That does happen.
AUSTIN: Yes.
Maybe they`re telling you what you want to hear.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: So, Secretary Austin pretty much laid the smackdown on Matt Gaetz about this idea that critical race theory has infected our armed forces.
Joan, I will start with you, because this is what I think is very clear. The Republican Party stands for stopping Joe Biden and screaming about issues like critical race theory and cancel culture, remember when they cared about that a month ago, in order to sort of round up their base and get people active and involved.
WALSH: Right.
JOHNSON: One, how effective do you think this is as a campaign strategy?
And, two, do you really think that the Republicans can make any headway going after the military on this?
WALSH: Well, they didn`t today.
I mean, we saw Lloyd Austin and we saw Mark Milley also -- as a white person -- and I always enjoy it as a white person when somebody white says, I want to know about white rage as a white person. It`s important. Why did why did thousands of people storm the Capitol, storm this building?
I mean, to see these two military leaders stand up in ways that, frankly, Democrats don`t often stand up, and say, this is garbage, it was so bracing, it was so encouraging. So I hope that they lend a spine to some Democrats to just speak back, because they are kind of eating our lunch on this.
There`s a whole school of thought that we shouldn`t really dignify, we shouldn`t join this argument because it is ridiculous. But it`s very hard for me to journalists to say, let`s just look away. I want more people to stand up like those two military leaders did and say this is garbage.
JOHNSON: So, Daniella, when I look at this -- and I agree with Joan in a lot of ways. I usually don`t give too many of these sort of critical race theory arguments too much attention, because I know it`s a bad faith argument.
But from an organizing standpoint, it can be effective, because critical race theory is the kind of thing where the local crank at your school board suddenly becomes a political leader, right? When he or she can scream about something and go into the local school board and make noise and end up on television to end up viral, that is a recruiting technique that Republicans can use.
So is this something that Democrats need to take more seriously at the state level? Do they need to be saying, look, we all know that no one`s teaching critical race theory in elementary school? Or is this something that you think is going to blow over until the next fake issue that Republicans want to get absorbed with?
GIBBS LEGER: Well, there definitely is going to be another fake issue. So we can definitely guarantee that.
But I think Joan is right that I think the global leaders need to be prepared to smack it down the way those two military leaders did. On and other issues, just right across the border here in Loudoun County, there was like a raucous -- like, people got arrested at a local school board meeting, because -- I think it was around issues -- around culture issues - - quote, unquote -- "culture issues."
So, yes, Democrats and progressives need to be able to -- you can be dismissive, but you have to do so with force. You have to meet force with force, because, in a vacuum, people who aren`t paying attention, who don`t really understand what some of these boogeyman issues are, they can be susceptible to it.
So I think it is important to have a response.
JOHNSON: Daniella Gibbs Leger, Howard Dean and Joan Walsh, thank you all so much for starting off our show today.
GIBBS LEGER: Thank you.
JOHNSON: Coming up: news tonight on the Manhattan DA who will inherit the Trump Organization criminal probe. I will talk to a special guest whose worked in the DA`s office.
Plus, Neal Katyal on a major breakthrough in the Capitol riot probe involving the far right Oath Keepers group.
And, later, a grassroots leader on the growing pressure campaign over voting rights.
Big show tonight. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOHNSON: Now to the Trump Organization criminal probe and hints on who may take over the case when DA Cy Vance leaves in December.
Former federal prosecutor Alvin Bragg is in the lead after the election yesterday. He would be the first black Manhattan DA.
Earlier this week, Ari asked him about the Trump probe he could possibly inherit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY CANDIDATE: I`m a public corruption prosecutor. I prosecuted the majority leader of the state Senate. I prosecuted two mayors, one for bribery, one for campaign finance fraud.
And, at the attorney general`s office, I led the team that held Trump and his children accountable for their misconduct with the Trump Foundation.
So I go where the facts go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: The facts show prosecutors closing in on Trump`s inner circle, now investigating Trump Organization executive Matthew Calamari, who used to be his bodyguard.
Former Trump Organization executive Barbara Res says Calamari knows all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA RES, FORMER TRUMP ORGANIZATION EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT: Calamari knows where the bodies are buried. He`s been with Trump through thick and thin.
Every single move that Trump ever made, Matt has been there or someone else, but usually Matt. And he might not know anything financial, but he probably was sitting around when things were discussed. So, he probably has information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Calamari, the consigliere.
Trump has denied any wrongdoing. But the heat is on Trump CFO Allen Weisselberg, who is reportedly still going to work at Trump Tower and not yet cooperating with prosecutors.
Former Manhattan district attorney Robert Gottlieb telling "The Washington Post" Weisselberg is playing -- quote -- "Russian roulette" with prison time.
And that very former prosecutor joins me to live to break this all down.
We`re back in just 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOHNSON: Joining me now is Robert Gottlieb, a New York criminal defense attorney and former Manhattan assistant district attorney, and former federal prosecutor Joyce Vance.
Thank you all so much.
So, I`m going to start with you, Mr. Gottlieb.
I have got to ask, because I love the metaphor in the imagery, how -- how are members of Trump`s organization playing Russian roulette with jail right now?
ROBERT C. GOTTLIEB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Listen, if somebody as high up in the organization as Weisselberg thinks he can get away with just a slap on the wrist and play the tough guy and protect his boss, he`s dead wrong.
It`s a very dangerous game. The DA is not playing games here. First, it has to be said we don`t know if -- whether or not he`s already cooperating, frankly.
But assuming he isn`t cooperating right now, the leniency train left the station a long time ago. It`s been going on for over a year. The DA has gone to great lengths of fighting the battle for tax records, subpoenas in court all the way up right to the Supreme Court.
If and when he is charged, he`s not -- the DA is not going to charge him with simply minor charges. All the talk has been about his children and whether or not taxes were paid on gifts or apartments.
That`s not -- if the DA is going to pull the trigger and indict him as part of the investigation to get Trump, they`re going to indict him on crimes that, by everything we know, involve Trump. We`re talking about tax fraud, insurance fraud, falsifying business records. We`re talking about bank fraud.
And if he`s charged with that, he`s just dead wrong in thinking he`s going to get away with just a slap on the wrist.
JOHNSON: And I want to follow this up.
All of this prosecution, this would, of course, be pressing Weisselberg to turn over things about Trump.
I want to play you some sound from a Trump deposition in 2015. I want to get your thoughts on this on the -- we will come back -- on how you think Trump will respond to the increased heat that`s on somebody like Weisselberg.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don`t have my glasses. I am at a disadvantage, because I didn`t bring my glasses.
This is such small writing.
QUESTION: All right, well, if the witness can`t actually physically read the language...
TRUMP: I mean, it`s very small writing. I can make it out. You want me to try?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Now, Robert, I see this, and this, to me, is Trump basically acting like Uncle Jr. in "The Sopranos," right? Suddenly, I can`t read. I don`t understand things. I`m confused and hazy in order to avoid prosecution.
It looks to me like Trump is either going to play dumb or say I don`t know you to any person who ends up trying to turn evidence on him. So, are these people being loyal because they think at some point Trump is going to help them? Or is Weisselberg and the like being loyal because they somehow think they can beat the system, even though the guy they`re protecting is known to either play dumb or stab people in the back?
GOTTLIEB: Listen, that`s been the million-dollar question for years and years.
Why in heaven`s name are people willing to give up their lives, their morality for Donald Trump? So, in this case, I`m willing to bet, if he decides to play the tough guy and not cooperate, he has this view that there`s some honor in it, and that he doesn`t want to do anything to hurt the person who really bought his silence.
But he`s wrong, because I think we have seen time and time again Trump will sell you down via the river like that. And he`s just mistaken in thinking that he can just plead guilty or go to trial and be convicted, and it`s no big deal.
Listen, he`s in -- what, 73, 74 years old. He could very well spend the rest of his life in jail. So, when the time comes, I`m willing to bet don`t be so quick to assume that he will not cooperate, if not cooperating already.
JOHNSON: Joyce, want to ask you this.
So, all these other names have come out. Now we have got this guy Calamari. Calamari, Cohen, Weisselberg, these sound like Dick Tracy gangsters from the 1930s, this group of people that Trump surrounded himself.
Calamari is a former bodyguard, and he was working in the Trump Organization. Lay out to our audience, again, what the significance is of yet somebody else who supposedly was directing the money being under investigation. Is that a real change? Or is this just a standard prosecution at this point?
JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, the tough part in this sort of a case is proving the state of mind of people that you charge, proving that they intentionally engaged in fraud or that they had knowledge of fraud.
And prosecutors are entitled to use circumstantial evidence. But the best evidence you can get in these cases is someone who was working with the defendant who can talk about what they did on a daily basis, and even what they may have privately acknowledged.
So it`s no surprise that prosecutors are looking at people who would have been all around Trump.
Like Robert, I`m a little bit agnostic and perhaps suspicious of this reporting that says that Weisselberg isn`t already cooperating. Of course, that`s possible. But it`s equally possible that prosecutors are using investigative tools that make them disinclined perhaps to focus on who they may already have cooperation from.
You can never have too many witnesses to someone`s state of mind. The more, the better. And there`s probably no one who knows that better than the man who will presumably become the district attorney for Manhattan after Cy Vance down at the end of the year, someone who was involved in some of the most critical public corruption cases that the U.S. attorney`s office brought during the Obama era, and who understands how tough it is to prove state of mind.
JOHNSON: So, Joyce, I want to follow up with that.
When you get into district attorney who comes in with a case this big, is there a delay? Like, is he going to jump into the office, it`s like, we`re going to give you a stack of papers and here you go? Is there a six- or seven-week sort of windup time? Or has he already sort of been briefed on this process, and we`re going to see a smooth transition?
Because, to the layman who doesn`t necessarily understand everything about what district attorneys do, there may be a concern that, as we have seen with the Justice Department and some other areas, that a new attorney coming in might have a slightly different perspective or even a different strategy that may slow down this investigation.
VANCE: Well, you don`t really brief people up on cases before they take the oath of office for a lot of reasons.
JOHNSON: Right.
VANCE: But there`s a difference between having a new sheriff come into town, somebody who`s running the office, and have a new lead prosecutor be dropped in on a case.
And so, here, you have got a new boss for the office, someone who`s certainly going to want to review and take a look at things. But my suspicion is that he will leave the prosecution team intact, and whatever charging decisions they have made, while he might want to take a look at them, he will let them move forward with the process that`s already under way.
JOHNSON: Robert.
GOTTLIEB: You know, and if I can just say, I think Joyce is absolutely right.
But we also have to remember, if it is Bragg who takes over, he`s out of the attorney general`s office. And this has been -- now it is -- a joint investigation involving the Manhattan DA, as well as the New York attorney general.
So, I agree. I don`t foresee that he`s going to suddenly uproot and change the course of this investigation.
JOHNSON: We are not going to be done with this, because it is such a morass of corruption, but I think it`s good, it`s important. And I like that we`re covering this kind of issue, because had we paid more attention to this beforehand, maybe we wouldn`t have had a Donald Trump manage to get into the White House.
Robert Gottlieb and Joyce Vance, thank you so much for your time.
Ahead: big news in the January 6 insurrection probe, the first rioter sentenced today inside a courtroom, and a member of the Oath Keepers pleads guilty to conspiracy and will cooperate.
Neal Katyal on that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOHNSON: A major legal development and the MAGA riot investigation.
Today, the first guilty plea from a member of the far right Oath Keepers. Graydon Young, seeing here leaving a D.C. court today, pleading guilty on two of six charges against him, for conspiracy and obstruction of an official proceeding, conspiracy, as in the preplanning of the insurrection, Young agreeing to cooperate as part of his plea deal.
Now, this is huge. There are reportedly 15 other members involved. And Young still faces years in prison. How much he cooperates could be the key.
Also today, the first January 6 rioter was sentenced. The 49-year-old Indiana woman entered the Capitol and was given three years probation, 40 hours of community service, and a $500 fine. The judge rebuked GOP lawmakers downplaying the insurrection, accusing them of -- quote -- "rewriting history" and comparing insurrectionists to tourists, adding -- quote -- "I don`t know what planet they were on."
It comes as the DOJ is releasing new videos, one showing a group with something -- someone`s saying, "Let`s take the F`ing Capitol," another showing a defendant carrying a stolen riot shield, and another showing them storming past police officers on a stairwell into the Capitol.
I want to note, any editing on this video was not done by NBC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(SHOUTING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Joining me now is Neal Katyal, former acting U.S. solicitor general.
Neal, it is great to talk to you.
I`m going to start with this. I cannot contain my disgust and annoyance that the first person who is sentenced from this insurrection basically got community service. I have seen people -- this is a fine akin to somebody who got caught, like, burning park benches after their team won a championship.
And this woman was actually involved in an attempted coup. Can you explain to us why this woman in Indiana got such a light sentence, compared to some of the other people we`re going to talk about?
NEAL KATYAL, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Jason, I generally agree with you about this particular sentence, but the sentencing hearing itself is quite interesting.
So, we will talk about some sense in a second, but with the hearing, we`re only one sentencing hearing in.
JOHNSON: Right.
KATYAL: The defendant here didn`t even participate in the violence. And yet we have already seen a federal judge castigate congressional Republicans for their rhetoric about January 6.
It`s going to be a long summer, long, hot summer for the Capitol riot truthers. And Republicans are about to be debunked by the very rioters that they have been lying about in their defense.
So, with respect to this, look, I do think the sentence is too lenient. It`s true she only entered the building. She didn`t actually kill anyone inside it, unlike others. But if someone breaks into my home or office, I kind of think jail time is appropriate for that person, let alone the people`s office.
The law calls for up to a six-month sentence for what she did. So I was a little surprised to see it being just basically community service. It`s true it`s her first offense. She doesn`t have known ties to extremists. But I don`t think it`s the right call.
What the judge said to explain himself was, it`s an easier case because she accepted her responsibility. But she only accepted her responsibility after she got busted.
JOHNSON: Right.
KATYAL: This defendant went to the sheriff`s office to get a gun permit. And an employee recognized her from Facebook as the woman who was tweeting -- posting things about going to the Capitol.
At least she has some contrition, some acceptance of responsibility. Are we ever going to have any acceptance of responsibility from the stop the steal caucus in Congress?
I mean, who would have guessed that, six months later, the perpetrators of the riot would be -- who are most vocal about its violence are the perpetrators and not the people in Congress? I mean, it`s just really unfortunate.
JOHNSON: It`s ridiculous.
And every time I hear -- and I`m going to always apply what I call the Crystal Mason standard. If a black woman can be sentenced to five years in jail for voting in Texas, that is the minimum that I`m going to look at every single one of these insurrectionists.
So I want to move also to now the Oath Keepers. So you have got several members of the Oath Keepers, which is a far right organization, a paramilitary organization, like a lot of these groups are, like the Proud Boys. You now have members of their leadership basically saying, all right, look, I will flip, I will give information.
Neal, what I`m curious about is, how reliable can that be? Because what always strikes me is, look, OK, if you`re leadership, maybe you have got the entire mailing list. You can tell us what everybody told you and what they planned on doing.
But how much can one leader of an organization ratting out everybody else, what can it really do if everyone else says, hey, look I was operating independently, or it was really this guy`s idea, it wasn`t this person`s idea? How strong is that kind of delivering of information from leadership?
KATYAL: It`s huge.
And I think that`s what`s going on with this plea that you`re talking about, the Graydon Young plea, where he pleas to five to six months -- five to six years -- excuse me -- approximately, of a sentence in exchange for his cooperation.
And he said he felt duped by the group today in court. But I have a feeling Young isn`t the only one who felt duped on the 6th.
JOHNSON: Right.
KATYAL: I think there will be a theme across these sentencings. But the others will be talking about Donald Trump.
And, Jason, here`s where the conspiracy doctrine, which is an old doctrine, goes back hundreds of years is really important. In a past life, I wrote a "Yale Law Journal" article all about it. It`s all about flipping. It`s all about extracting information and using it by linking together one defendant to another.
And I think what`s going on here, if you read these indictments, is that`s what the Justice Department`s trying to do. They`re trying to use this expansive conspiracy doctrine to get information, because, after all, some of the leaders of these groups were using encrypted communications and the like.
And it`d be really fitting if a movement born of conspiracy theories ends in conspiracy charges.
JOHNSON: It is interesting, also, the number of the -- the number of these leaders who are doing it. Enrique Tarrio is doing the same thing.
You have a lot of leaders of these organizations that, the moment that it got hot, suddenly, they`re flipping evidence on everybody.
I want to also find out about this. So, as you`re getting this kind of information from Oath Keepers, from Proud Boys, from other organizations, is there going to be a moment, or do you expect us to finally hear that smoking gun moment where somebody in one of these organizations admits to or provides evidence that says, somebody in Congress helped me?
Because that`s what -- that has been what a lot of people have been curious about all along. The level of sophistication for the attack, it is hard to envision that this was just done with a couple of tours and checking "Schoolhouse Rock!" about how the Capitol looks.
There are real concerns that either staffers or members of Congress helped. Do you think we`re going to hear that soon from the leaders of these organizations, who clearly were part of the planning process?
KATYAL: Well, I would say two things about that.
One is, I think we will hear something like that, because even if you don`t have a smoking gun or anything, it`s very clear that members of Congress and, indeed, the president himself gave aid and comfort to these people. So, at least indirect support, that`s already in the record.
Now there`s a known unknown. What`s beyond that? Is there actually the kind of direct material support that you`re talking about? It wouldn`t shock me, given all the lengths to which the Republicans are going to try and block a January 6 commission.
I mean, they must have something to hide. When the people`s house has been attacked, people have died, blood has been spilled in the Capitol, and yet they`re afraid to have an investigation, they must be hiding something. I don`t know what that is.
And that`s why I think this Justice Department investigation is being done in such a meticulous, careful way. If that evidence exists, the American people should have it. If the evidence doesn`t exist, the American people should have the absolute confidence no stone was left unturned, they looked at everything, and decided there wasn`t that piece of evidence that you`re referring to, Jason.
JOHNSON: And one last thing on this, because, as you said, you have Republicans in the House and the Senate. Obviously, some in the House actually voted for the January 6 commission. All the Republicans in the Senate pretty much didn`t vote for it.
And then Kyrsten Sinema skipped out on it. Now that we have heard that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is like, look, we`re going to do a commission anyway, we`re going to investigate this, do you think that investigation that they`re going to have on the House side, does that help or harm these individual prosecutions happening around the country with the people involved in the insurrection?
KATYAL: Well, they sometimes have the possibility of harming, because sometimes you give immunity or something like that in Congress, and it can mess up the criminal prosecution. That`s what happened, for example, with Oliver North.
But I think, at this point in time, these rules and laws are pretty well baked into things. And so House investigators are going to be really careful not to step on the toes of the criminal prosecutions that are ongoing. So I have absolute confidence it can be done.
It`s a shame that the Republicans were afraid to do this in a bipartisan way. But let`s not let the truth go undiscovered. We need to find it out.
JOHNSON: Neal Katyal with the good legal news today, thank you so very much.
Vice President Harris says the voting rights fight isn`t over. So what can be done?
We have the perfect guest who is organizing on this -- next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOHNSON: Now to the grassroots pressure campaign.
Progressives marching today in D.C., calling on Democrats like Joe Biden and Joe Manchin to get more aggressive on voting rights, and blasting -- quote -- "lackluster engagement" from Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris," but calls also starting to come from progressive Democrats in Congress.
Congressman Mondaire Jones saying he told Biden to get more involved on voting rights -- quote -- "In response, Biden just sort of stared at me," Jones said, "describing an awkward silence that passed between the two."
Pramila Jayapal also saying Biden should do more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUCK TODD, MSNBC HOST: I take it you don`t think he`s done enough publicly?
REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): He had a tremendous amount in front of him when he came in. But, yes, I think he needs to now do more on this issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: The White House says Biden will have more to say next week.
Joining me now Ezra Levin, executive director and co-founder of Indivisible, a progressive grassroots organization. Indivisible organized hundreds of town halls, especially during the GOP`s campaign to gut Obamacare.
Thank you so much for being here, Ezra.
I`m going to start with a video from 2017 of what it was like when Republicans were trying to shut down health care for millions of Americans and what Indivisible did. I want to get your comments on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PROTESTERS: This is what democracy looks like!
PROTESTERS: Shame! Shame! Shame!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am an angry constituent. You work for us.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Ezra, that kind of stuff warms my heart to see people getting that excited and that engaged.
So, my question is, in the past, when you`re talking about health care, it was like, hey, defend this policy. Republicans, you can`t gut it. Don`t destroy it. Democrats, hold your ground, et cetera, et cetera.
But that`s not really what we`re looking at right now. We have got a situation where -- I mean, I am as critical of Joe Biden as the next person, but his hands are kind of tied by two senators. So, where do you target the protests on two senators who don`t seem like they want to move on the issue?
EZRA LEVIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND CO-FOUNDER, INDIVISIBLE: Yes.
Well, I just -- first of all, just -- I just get chills watching those videos. I love those memories of seeing people show up and making their voice heard. And, if you will recall, what they were showing up for was to prevent the repeal of the Affordable Care Act, as you said, which was the top legislative priority of that trifecta Republican government.
That`s what they were trying to do.
JOHNSON: Right.
LEVIN: And people showed up. They made their voice heard. They scared their own representatives. They were worried. Their representatives were worried that there was going to be political repercussions for not doing it. And they backed off.
It was successful. It was grassroots pressure at its finest. Now what we have is, I would say, the opposite side of that coin. We have a different trifecta. We have a Democratic trifecta. And we are again talking about the top legislative priority of this trifecta. But instead of it being repealing the Affordable Care Act, it is protecting voting rights.
JOHNSON: Right.
LEVIN: It is taking political power away from billionaires. It is injecting ethics into our politics and making sure our elections are secure.
That`s what the For the People Act is about. And so I think there is too much attention focused on just the one Senator Manchin or Senator Sinema or any individual actor. We`re talking about the entire political system needs to come together and say, we got to get this done. It`s got to happen.
And the answer that isn`t just what happens in West Virginia or Arizona or any other particular state. The whole system needs to feel it. So we`re organizing with over 100 partners nationally these Deadline For Democracy events all across the country, every single state, right?
The point of that is, sure, pressure on an Arizona senator and a California senator who has said some stuff that we don`t like, pressure on West Virginia. That`s important, but it`s important it`s everywhere. You need it everywhere, so that, when those politicians come back to Washington, D.C., in July, they aren`t saying, eh, OK, we will move on to reconciliation, we will move on to bridges.
They`re saying, oh, my gosh, we have got to do something about this, because I`m getting yelled at back at home.
JOHNSON: So, Ezra, this is what occurs me with this.
I loved your tweet. We`re going to -- we`re going to hopefully bring it up. There`s a tweet that you did earlier about all the things that previous presidents have done, right? You had President Obama and he would have debates over the ACA with the whole Republican Caucus. And Bill Clinton gave tons of speeches. And Bush did things for tax cuts.
What is Joe Biden doing? And that`s the thing. I am concerned when I hear the president say, I will get back to you in a week. I`m concerned when I only hear sort of snippets of comments here and there.
If you were sitting in the White House right now, what would you be screaming from the top of the rafters that Joe Biden and Vice President Harris need to be doing right now, not next week, not next Thursday, right here, right now, with the bully pulpit that they have?
LEVIN: Oh, great question.
So, I wouldn`t be screaming. I would be respectful.
(LAUGHTER)
LEVIN: And I would advise him to use the full force of his office to actually make this a priority.
And we know what that looks like, because the president has done it before. He did this on COVID relief. He did this on the recovery plan. He`s doing it right now on infrastructure. But, look, you cannot tell me that the crisis of crumbling bridges or roads that need to be paved is a bigger crisis than the crumbling of our democracy. You cannot convince me of that.
And, look, the president himself says that. So, if he believes what he`s saying, look, I would say use the force of your bully pulpit. Drive the media coverage, drive public attention to this issue. Get creative. Go to Texas. Go to Arizona. Go to Florida. Go to Georgia. Hold a rally in front of the White House. Give a speech from the Oval Office.
It isn`t rocket science. This is done by every successful president. This is how they move their agenda. So I think you`re exactly right. I worked my butt off to get Joe Biden to become president of the United States. Indivisible leaders across the country did this. And they did it because they wanted him to fix what was wrong with our democracy.
They`re counting on him. So I have not been happy with what he`s done so far. But, look, this is his moment.
JOHNSON: Right.
LEVIN: This is the time for presidential leadership. It has failed in the Senate just this week. Mitch McConnell says, no, we`re not even going to discuss it.
Now`s the time for the president to come down and say, uh-uh, we are discussing it. I am going to demand that we discuss it. And I`m going to talk about nothing else but democracy until we get it done.
JOHNSON: I also think that, if Joe Biden, President Joe Biden, and Kamala Harris just stood in line with some voters for two-and-a-half-hours and had C-SPAN cover them, that would be the biggest message they could give about why we need some electoral changes.
Ezra Levin, thank you so much for your time.
LEVIN: Jason, thanks for having me.
JOHNSON: Live from the DOJ, it`s Donald Trump. You won`t believe what he asked the department to do about "Saturday Night Live" -- when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOHNSON: Now a story that could be straight from The Onion, but it`s actually true.
Trump wanted his Justice Department to stop "Saturday Night Live" from mocking him. The Daily Beast reporting Trump asked his advisers what the DOJ and other federal agencies could do to probe the show.
But just stop and think about this, the president asking the Department of Justice about a legendary sketch comedy show known for political satire.
Here`s what got under his skin:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: Send in Steve Bannon.
(LAUGHTER)
COLIN JOST, ACTOR: Former social media influencer Donald Trump.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BALDWIN: Is that Robert Mueller?
(LAUGHTER)
BALDWIN: Sadly, I had to fire Comey because he`s a nutjob and also because he knew all my secrets.
(LAUGHTER)
BALDWIN: So I had to put a little obstruction-a, ustice-j.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: You know, I`m old enough to remember when George W. Bush actually got on stage with Dana Carvey.
Trump called the report total fake news. You can judge for yourself whether this sounds like something Trump would do, because it does.
That does it for me tonight.
"THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID" is up next.