Summary
Acting legend Martin Sheen speaks out. The Trump DOJ surveillance scandal deepens. Some details emerge on the inner workings of the Trump Organization, as the grand jury criminal probe continues. President Biden prepares to meet with Vladimir Putin. Protesters urge Senator Joe Manchin to pass Democratic priorities. Manhattan district attorney candidate Lucy Lang discusses the race.
Transcript
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: "THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER" starts right now.
Hi, Ari.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Hi, Nicolle. Thank you very much.
Welcome to THE BEAT. I`m Ari Melber.
And we begin with news on the Trump era DOJ scandal.
Washington is starting off the week where it left off Friday. with even more revelations and fallout from a Trump era abuse of power that experts say is worse than Watergate.
Donald Trump`s DOJ has now been caught surveilling on at least 13 people, from journalists, to political opponents, to a minor. And in a clear sign that the allegations go farther than even many other well-known Trump era controversies, which the former president`s top aides were often eager to defend, now even former attorney generals, Barr, who clashed with Mueller and assembled about the Mueller report on behalf of Trump, even Barr is denying any involvement or knowledge, rather than spinning some kind of defensive all this. Ditto for Trump`s first attorney general, Sessions.
Both just claim they didn`t know about these Putin-esque plots to put Donald Trump`s Democratic opponents under surveillance. Now, that is the context for the further fallout and news that I can get into with our experts and with you tonight.
We have DOJ moves that have become kind of like a legal orphan, because Barr and Sessions and all the people in charge for Trump, so proud of all the other Trumpy things they did, well, they don`t want anything to do with this. No one in Trump land wants to claim these things. And the scandal keeps coming because now there are reports that the surveillance also crept inside the Trump White House itself, including surveilling Donald Trump`s own top government lawyer, White House counsel Don McGahn.
The DOJ hitting up Apple to get his records and then getting an unusual gag order on the secret request to surveil him. Two sources telling "The New York Times" that that stealth tool was used against news outlets, as well as against Trump`s top lawyer, which means Mr. McGahn, a name that is familiar from the Mueller probe -- and he was even testifying recently before Congress -- this is a whole different reason he`s in the news -- it means Mr. McGahn was left in the dark about all of it until recently.
And, as we reported Friday, the key place for accountability here is the House, where Speaker Pelosi has a firmer majority than in the Senate. And she`s emphasizing how, while Nixon famously had an enemies list, Donald Trump got the levers of government to go even farther, to actually use government power to get people on the list.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): What the administration did, the Justice Department, the leadership of the former president goes even beyond Richard Nixon. Richard Nixon had an enemies list. This is about undermining the rule of law.
And for the attorneys general, Barr and Sessions, at least two, to say that they didn`t know anything about it is beyond belief. So, we will have to have them come under oath to testify about that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Going under oath puts legal pressure on those DOJ vets.
News also breaking that a top Trump holdover at the Justice Department is now out, leaving this week, DOJ saying that was long in the works, while Biden Attorney General Garland is talking with Adam Schiff, the key intelligence player who also has the double role of being a target of this Trump era surveillance.
Now, as for all those supposed to denials from those Trump officials I mentioned, you have to keep your eye on the details of the so-called denials. Bill Barr says that he`s -- quote -- "not aware of any congressman`s records being sought in a leak case" -- end quote.
Well, that could leave room for surveillance that sought other records and then swept up material from the members of Congress. And those two words, not aware, are not the same as Mr. Barr affirming, let alone affirming under oath, that he never requested, nor approved, nor oversaw any such surveillance.
Interestingly, former acting A.G. for the Russia probe, Rod Rosenstein, remember him, well, he hasn`t put anything in writing yet, amidst all these orphan surveillance activities.
The open questions here are pretty clear. Who did approve the surveillance? Today, "The New York Times" cites sourcing that those Trump attorneys general, who I just quoted with their denials, that they did approve it.
Another question, why did the DOJ take this huge, grave measure of these gag orders, long after the surveillance had ended, and the probe didn`t even turn up any good leads for the illegal leaks?
Another question, what justifies surveilling these members of Congress in the first place? Why didn`t the DOJ or even federal judges, who are nominally independent, offer more skepticism for a leak probe that just happened to follow hundreds of Donald Trump`s tweets demanding an attack on leading impeachment manager Adam Schiff? You really don`t need to be Inspector Poirot to see the links here.
Another question, why is this all coming out right now? I don`t know. I have clues. But we don`t have nearly enough evidence and government investigations independently done yet to have the full picture. We just know that, without those gag orders being lifted, this thing could have stayed buried for a long time, maybe forever.
And then the other question, as we started reporting when we first dug into this big, big scandal Friday -- and it is a Trump scandal, and it started with Trump and his calls to turn the DOJ into his dirty tricks operation center. So, make no mistake about that. But that doesn`t mean that there aren`t other people here with a job to do.
So the question is, what is Merrick Garland going to do with a DOJ that went farther than anyone publicly knew to potentially abuse power to kneecap these Trump opponents?
And this is not the only leftover scandal. DOJ officials were also pressed to help overturn the election to abuse legal powers to give Barr cover in that Mueller probe and to keep many more things secret than apparently Garland has not yet overruled, because some of that stuff -- we have been following some of those other cases, not to the same degree of scandals as the surveillance, but areas where Garland has not yet reversed everything.
After four years of hearing, this is not normal. We`re seeing it together through this story and others. It is hard to return to normal, while pretending that none of those four years happened, or pretending that none of it should be met with fact-finding and consequences.
It is the DOJ, after all, law and order, rules and sanctions. To do anything less would turn the last four years into a training exercise for the next would-be autocrat who gets into power and salivates at just what the DOJ can do and -- quote -- "get away with it," if they get away with it.
Now, is that hyperbole? Is this a news anchor trying to scare you? I promise you, I try to give you all the facts as best I can without any unnecessary fear.
But let me be clear about this final fact. If you have been looking around the country lately, you would have to have noticed how many up-and-coming Republicans look at Trumpism as a blueprint to build on.
Let`s bring in our experts.
Neal Katyal is someone who knows these issues well. He was former acting solicitor general and a senior DOJ official, and MSNBC analyst Juanita Tolliver.
Neal, your thoughts on all the above and how to get to the bottom of it?
NEAL KATYAL, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: OK, so first of all, a huge, big happy birthday to Donald Trump, whose present appears to be a good old-fashioned Nixonian abuse of power scandal that will hopefully detract from his ongoing criminal probes.
I think, Ari, your lead-up was right. There are a lot of unknowns here. And it`s not helpful that Bill Barr and Jeff Sessions and Matthew Whitaker are basically like the Bronte sisters of misleading public statements.
I think there are two basic possibilities. Either -- one is, you have got a line prosecutor who accidentally got ahold of these records, never told anyone in leadership about them, and managed to get four years of gag orders without them. That`s possibility one.
Possibility two is, one of the Trump attorneys general is not being fully forthright about what`s happening. And, look, I mean, I will trust Bill Barr`s statements and denials hear about as much as I will trust his summary of the Mueller report.
So, one thing is that, the electronic spying. The other is the gag orders, as you were saying a moment ago, because these gag orders have been placed since 2017, for four years. Why? And, right now, a lot of the focus is on the electronic spying stuff, which, as you say, is potentially Putin-esque.
But it`s the cover-up that`s really interesting to me, because you can have a gag order -- the Justice Department has them -- when you have an ongoing law enforcement investigation, but an ongoing law enforcement investigation for four years? I think something else is happening here.
And so I think Merrick Garland is right to lift the gag order, to have the inspector general investigate this. But that`s not enough. I think we need a full, true reckoning of what happened at the Justice Department over the last four years.
And I think Merrick Garland can do that. This isn`t litigation. This isn`t something where he`s inheriting some past positions. We need, as the American people, to know everything with the Justice Department did, particularly when it comes to spying on members of Congress and the opposition.
MELBER: And Neal, when "The Times" reports sourcing that the attorneys general did sign off on it, what`s your reaction, as someone who`s worked inside DOJ?
KATYAL: Yes, I mean, something like this would very ordinarily require at least deputy attorney general sign-off, if not attorney general.
Like, when I was acting solicitor general, that wouldn`t have been enough. I couldn`t have done this. You needed someone at that very -- the very pinnacle to do it.
Now, what I think the possibility is, is that these records were swept in by mistake, that they were actually targeting someone else. And then they learned about Schiff and Schiff`s family or whatever, and Eric Swalwell, and, evidently, Don McGahn. I mean, I don`t know who`s next in this circumstance.
Maybe that`s a possibility. And, ordinarily, I would be inclined to trust the Justice Department in such instances. There`s something called a presumption of regularity to Justice Department actions, which courts have said. Like, when they`re taking action, and they see it`s a law enforcement investigation, you want to give them the benefit of the doubt.
The problem is, with these folks in power for the last four years, there`s a presumption of irregularity. So you can`t really give them the benefit of the doubt, because just the part we know is so horrible, so offensive to Justice Department traditions, that we don`t give them that benefit of the doubt.
MELBER: Yes.
And, as you say, if you follow that particular theory that perhaps it was swept up, that would potentially go to why Mr. Barr, who is known to be quite parsimonious, could be saying, oh, he never -- quote -- "sought this."
But that doesn`t mean that he didn`t have responsibility, particularly if he ever found out about it.
With that in mind, Juanita, take a listen to classic Barr on the related issue of whether he was asked, the way Trump did ask over Twitter, for these kinds of probes. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Has the president or anyone at the White House ever asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone, yes or no, please, sir?
WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: The president or anybody else.
HARRIS: Seems you would remember something like that and be able to tell us.
BARR: Yes, but I`m trying to grapple with the word suggest. I mean, there have been discussions of matters out there that -- they have not asked me to open an investigation, but...
HARRIS: Perhaps they have suggested?
BARR: I don`t know. I wouldn`t say suggest.
HARRIS: Hinted?
BARR: I don`t know.
HARRIS: Inferred?
You don`t know? OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Juanita?
JUANITA TOLLIVER, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Ari, playing dumb is something that Barr has clearly done consistently, acting like he doesn`t know anything that then Senator Harris, now Vice President Harris, was asking him about.
And even the semantics that you mentioned at the start of the show is fully in line with his playbook. He`s going to obfuscate. He`s going to try to dodge any type of direct questioning here. And that`s why it`s so important that he gets back in Congress, under oath, explicitly asking about what we have seen from reports.
Did you revive this investigation? Did you authorize these gag orders to be continued for four years? What exactly did you do and when did you do it are the line of questioning that he needs to get, Sessions need to get, honestly, anybody who was in the DOJ perpetuating this weaponization of the institution behalf of Trump.
It`s no secret that Barr and Sessions worked knowingly for Trump`s own agenda and acted as his own personal advisers and attorneys while serving as attorneys general. And so now it`s time to get to the truth of it all. And doing that through Congress is going to be essential, because when I read about the inspector general`s report and their investigation, yes, it can take time. It can take months and potentially years.
But what they can`t do -- it`s my understanding -- is that they cannot compel former DOJ employees to comply or engage them in that investigation, thus doubling the importance of Congress getting involved here and getting to the bottom of this, Ari.
MELBER: And, Juanita, what`s the challenge for Democrats, and particularly the Biden administration, which wants to turn a page, that, politically, they have been very clear they don`t want to live in the past of all this?
And yet part of what seems to be necessary here may not be in their short- term political interests, but is in the U.S. interest.
TOLLIVER: I think that`s absolutely right, Ari, especially when we have these continuous attacks from Republicans on our democracy.
This is yet another example of how Trump leveraged his White House, his administration to further dismantle key principles within these -- our government institutions. And so while Biden`s White House may not want to focus on this, it is absolutely something that they can empower Congress to act on, to get the information, to make it public, but also to collect it, so that not only the public knows, but also it`s something that can be a steady drumbeat for the American public as elections continue, and Trump potentially tries to run in 2024.
Because this is not something that should be forgotten. This is honestly -- as Schumer said, the sins of this administration keep piling up. And we all deserve to know how high that goes.
So, sure, there is a way that Biden and his team can absolutely focus on their agenda and moving bills and legislation forward and advocating for things that the American public needs. But the American public also needs the truth of how much Trump rotted our institutions.
MELBER: Juanita and Neal on the big story, thank you for kicking us off tonight.
We have a lot more of the program.
President Biden with a new warning for Putin, as they get ready for their summit.
Also, some details on the inner workings of Trump Org, with the grand jury criminal probe continuing.
And, on THE BEAT tonight, the one and only Martin Sheen.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: President Biden going off-script on his first overseas trip, taking aim at Republicans.
This was during the NATO press conference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:
The leadership of the Republican Party is fractured. The Trump wing of the party is the bulk of the party, but it makes up a significant minority of the American people.
And it is disappointing that so many of my Republican colleagues in the Senate, who I know, know better, have been reluctant to take on, for example, an investigation because they`re worried about being primaried.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The president there speaking to questions about all sorts of issues, including domestic politics.
Of course, this is his first trip as president abroad. And he`s also discussing America`s commitment to NATO.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: The U.S. commitment to Article 5 of the NATO treaty is rock solid and unshakable. It`s a sacred commitment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Article 5 is, of course, the NATO alliance`s bedrock. It treats attacks on any member nation as attack on all, rarely invoked, but a strong part of modern multilateral foreign policy.
Biden also acknowledging there`s a challenge here of working with adversaries and asserting that the U.S. will retaliate against Russia when warranted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I`m not looking for conflict with Russia, but that we will respond if Russia continues its harmful activities, and we will not fail to defend the transatlantic alliance.
He`s bright. He`s tough. And I have found that he is a -- as they say, when I used to play ball, a worthy adversary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: What a difference a president makes. It`s a very different approach, of course, to Vladimir Putin.
And this will be, by all accounts, one of the biggest tests of President Biden`s foreign policy when the two of them sit down on Wednesday.
We have a lot more in our program.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN COSTNER, ACTOR: You have got a lot of money changing hands in this book.
What is this, ward?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Uh-huh.
COSTNER: And police precincts?
But you got a heading here, circuit court. You got a heading here, circuit court. What is this?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Nothing. It`s nothing you can make out of it.
COSTNER: It`s nothing? What is this?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: If we can establish that any of these coded entries indicate payment to Capone, then we can put Capone away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Even when you`re working off the books, there are still some kind of books or accounting. And that`s what did in Al Capone in that rendition from "The Untouchables."
Now, no one ever said Capone went down for the worst allegations against him. But he did go down for something, tax evasion, all because of the accounting.
And even with very different facts, it`s still the accountants, the money people, the chief financial officers, who proved crucial to probing a potentially criminal enterprise. That`s why the New York DA is bearing down on the Trump Organization`s money people, like CFO Allen Weisselberg and financial expert Jeffrey McConney, who has now faced the grand jury that may decide the fate of the Trump Organization or Trump himself.
Now, McConney is less known than Weisselberg, but that`s who he would bring printouts of the company`s number to, handing off the docs, so they could then be discussed secretly with the company`s external tax accountant, as The Daily Beast reports, along with details of how furtive this process was, because that accountant would then leave the room, so that just Weisselberg and Trump could finalize the numbers as they saw fit.
Quite the phrase. It`s potentially damning for the people under legal scrutiny, because other Trump Org veterans have told us about the nefarious demands to lie about numbers, just as witnesses in this very probe have told us allegations that they relayed to this same grand jury, that the numbers didn`t add up, that the books were cooked, and that much of the company ran on a routine program of lying for Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER ATTORNEY/FIXER FOR DONALD TRUMP: Everybody lied for Donald. It wasn`t just me. It was the entire company. It was Don Jr., Ivanka, Eric, Jared Allen, you name it, the lawyers. Everybody in the company lied for Donald, because that`s just the way the company operated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Now prosecutors are probing the key players who actually ran this company day to day, apparently aided by whatever this low-profile moneyman, Jeffrey McConney, told the grand jury.
Now, McConney has worked at Trump Org for 34 years. We checked his LinkedIn page, where he has a profile with no photo. The only items that are really listed are the decades with the company and his B.A. in accounting.
And The Daily Beast story that I quoted from casts McConney as a company man who would take the subway to work, have lunch at the office, while watching golf in the conference room with Weisselberg or eat at his desk. Indeed, they report he was so loyal, he`d often be spotted dutifully wearing a Trump-branded necktie.
Now, that`s a portrait of a person who seems to want to help Donald Trump at all costs. But the DA is not just banking on Trump staff suddenly disliking their boss, but rather that they may just tell the truth about the numbers in the books when they`re under oath, rather than risk going to jail.
And if Donald Trump has been lying, while the numbers don`t, well, that`s ultimately between him and the laws of the state of New York.
Now, we have more on the probe, including the race to replace the DA, Cy Vance, in tonight`s program.
Also coming up, Martin Sheen, the most famous TV president ever, is here live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN SHEEN, ACTOR: I`m the president of the United States, not the president of the people who agree with me. And, by the way, if the left has a problem with that, they should vote for somebody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: And a whole lot more.
Stay with us on this special edition of THE BEAT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Joe Biden on his first foreign trip as president.
We`re joined now by former U.S. Ambassador to Russia in the Obama Biden administration Michael McFaul.
Thanks for being here.
MICHAEL MCFAUL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: Glad to be here, Ari.
MELBER: Absolutely.
Let`s take a listen to Macron here. We will play this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Things are going, I think, well.
And we`re -- or, as we say in -- back in the States, we`re on the same page.
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: I think it is great to have the U.S. president part of the club and very willing to cooperate.
And I think that what you want to demonstrate is that leadership is partnership.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: You get the feeling, at least in the public appearances, it is going according to plan.
As a foreign policy expert, walk us through what President Biden is trying to achieve here on the big trip and how it`s going.
MCFAUL: Well, he`s building up to his meeting here in Geneva with Vladimir Putin by having a series of meetings with democratic allies and partners, right, so first, the G7, then the NATO summit. That just concluded.
Then there`s going to be a European Union summit. And then he comes to Geneva. And by doing so, I think the message he`s trying to communicate -- and I think he`s doing a great job of it, by the way -- is that the democracies of the world are united as we deal with autocracies like Putin`s Russia.
And I would say, so far, so good. So, they`re boring, Ari, not all the excitement of other summits that we had over the last four years. But, sometimes, boring is good. America is back. And our -- we`re stable in our relationships with these democracies here in Europe.
MELBER: Shout-out to boring. When it comes to government or relations between countries with big militaries and other things, I think boring can be great.
MCFAUL: Yes.
MELBER: I want to play what might be less boring, NBC`s Keir Simmons doing the interview with Vladimir Putin, a lot of different parts to it.
We have seen the ongoing issues with cyber hacking, even if it`s by non- state actors, wherever they may be. Take a look at this exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEIR SIMMONS, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Mr. President, are you waging a cyberwar against America?
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Where is the evidence? Where is proof?
It`s becoming farcical. We have been accused of all kinds of things, election interference, cyberattacks, and so on and so forth. And not once, not once, not one time did they bother to produce any kind of evidence or proof.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Ambassador McFaul.
(LAUGHTER)
MCFAUL: He`s a frustrating guy to talk to. I was in many summits with him over the years when I worked for Obama. I was in the last summit, by the way, with Vice President Biden and Prime Minister Putin.
And no proof? Ari, he hasn`t -- he`s not watching your show. He hasn`t read the Mueller report. He hasn`t read the Senate intelligence investigations, thousands of pages.
Of course there`s proof. But he denies it. And then he begs and challenges his interlocutor to push back. And I think that will be the challenge when President Biden sits down with him, because he`s going to do exactly the same. He is going to do it on human rights. He`s going to do it on the cyberattacks.
And he`s not coming into this meeting seeking a cooperative relationship with the United States or President Biden.
MELBER: Right, which goes to the big stakes there on this trip.
Great to have a diplomat walk us through some of it, even the deliciously boring parts.
Ambassador McFaul, thank you. As always, be safe out there.
We have a lot more coming up in the program, including a new series we have started where we`re speaking to each of the leading candidates running for the DA of New York, a big job and a big pending case against the Trump Organization.
Also, big important protest in West Virginia. Why? Well, it relates to Senator Joe Manchin and voting rights. We have a report from the ground.
And, later, as promised, the great, the one and only Martin Sheen live on THE BEAT.
That`s tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Turning to the scene in West Virginia.
We have got these live pictures. Democratic Senator Joe Manchin has been facing new protests over his opposition to a voting rights bill that was stalled in the Senate. And that`s one of several issues, as far as civil rights activists and progressives are concerned.
Manchin`s own constituents have been marching to his Charleston office, the protests organized in part by well-known civil rights leader Reverend William Barber. It`s a new development in his story that has captivated the Democratic Party and that is, of course, critical to the Biden agenda in the Senate.
And we have joining us NBC Ali Vitali on the ground in Charleston tracking the protests -- Ali.
ALI VITALI, NBC NEWS POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Ari, you`re seeing now people next to me marching in the heat here in West Virginia from their rallying point all the way to Joe Manchin`s office here.
The senator, of course, is in Washington, D.C., for votes tonight. But they`re hoping that he hears their message anyway, because this is a protest, yes, about the voting rights bill that is languishing right now in the Senate, but it`s also about much more than that.
You can see some of the signs that are passing by me. This is about fighting poverty, about bridging the inequality gap, raising the minimum wage. And this group, the civil rights group the Poor People`s Campaign, is framing this as not just a policy issue, but a moral issue as well.
As I have been talking to voters out here, though, they recognize that Joe Manchin is someone who has a maverick reputation here in the state. Even before this 50/50 Senate, they knew that he had taken positions that weren`t always in lockstep with the Democratic Party writ large.
Now, this group of people are out here to say that they want to make sure that, just because West Virginia is a red state, it`s not represented as a state that isn`t on board, at least in part, with the Democratic agenda.
Part of the push here too, Ari, is not just about the For the People Act. It`s also about getting rid of the filibuster. Manchin has been clear that`s not something that he wants to do. And I was just talking with someone who knows him well, has worked with him for many years who was reminding me of the fact that Manchin has been clear on this, both on the filibuster and the For the People Act.
He`s not for them. And so people here still hopeful that they might be able to change his mind, but a man who has been clear about his position over the course of several weeks and months, despite sustained pressure.
That being said, this is a group -- and Reverend Barber reiterated this to me earlier -- they are marching here, but this is not the last time that they will march. Next week, they`re going to be going to Washington to protest in front of Manchin`s office in D.C., also bringing folks with -- from Kentucky with them as well to try to pressure Senator Mitch McConnell on these issues.
And I think the reality here, too, you got to talk politics on the ground here in West Virginia. I covered Manchin`s race in 2018. It was his local brand that helped him keep this seat blue. Democrats I have spoken to on the ground here, they`re aware that, just because Manchin is a Democrat, it`s better to have him, in their mind, and be able to push him on some of these issues, rather than lose the seat to a Republican.
At least that`s what they say right now -- Ari.
MELBER: A look at the grassroots pressure there on that big story.
Ali Vitali, thank you very much.
We`re turning now to the Trump Org case. We have covered it a lot. It is a huge deal. And we have a special grand jury that will resume poring over evidence this week.
They could ultimately face a decision that is unlike anything we have ever seen in American history. And it`s important, regardless of what you think about this or that political situation. It`s a question of, if the evidence supports it, whether to potentially indict the company of or the person of a former ex -- a former president.
And we have a special guest tonight on this and so much more. This is a candidate from the consequential race to replace the DA you have heard about, Cy Vance in Manhattan, who`s currently leading the Trump Org criminal probe.
Voters will choose among the candidates in just eight days, voting already under way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: Manhattan DA Cy Vance.
RUHLE: Whose office is investigating former President Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cyrus Vance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He will not run for reelection.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eight candidates are vying for the district attorney seat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tali Farhadian Weinstein and Alvin Bragg.
ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY CANDIDATE: I`m the candidate in the race who has the experience with Donald Trump.
ELIZA ORLINS, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY CANDIDATE: I`m Eliza Orlins. I`m the only public defender in this race.
LUCY LANG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY CANDIDATE: Lucy Lang, formerly an assistant DA in Vance`s office.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Vance exit would mean a new Manhattan DA in the spotlight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Manhattan DA candidate Lucy Lang you just heard about there joins us now. She spent much of her career working in this office that she could now potentially, if she won, be the head of.
Thanks for being here.
LANG: Thank you so much for having me, Ari.
MELBER: Absolutely.
A lot of important issues. We will get to some of them I mentioned.
But let me ask you about the office where you have worked, because you look at something that`s been debated, especially in the context of racism and the law and harsh sentencing. This is an office where about a fifth of New York`s prison population is serving a life sentence. It`s one of the highest rates in the country.
And I`m curious what you think about that? Obviously, you have had many different types of cases, but do you think the office has historically gotten that right? Would you change that?
LANG: I run a national criminal justice reform organization. And I have served as an assistant district attorney right here in Manhattan handling the most serious, complex and violent cases.
There is no doubt that the Manhattan district attorney`s office and other New York City DA`s offices have been part of fueling mass incarceration, and that part of that has been seeking unduly long sentences.
So, the commitment to dismantling mass incarceration and reckoning with the country`s history of racial injustice has to include addressing excessive sentencing.
MELBER: Yes, I appreciate that. And you`re sort of speaking about the two roles you have had.
On the Trump Org case, we have seen from public reports that there is this special grand jury impaneled. That means, whoever wins this race, if it were you, could inherit either an open case or potentially indictments.
Do you think that, based on the public evidence, this grand jury is legally justified?
LANG: I have the most experience in the race handling large-scale, complex investigations.
As you know, can`t comment on the specifics of that case, but I do have the capacity to take over all of the cases pending before that office from the very first day as district attorney. I know the ins and outs of New York criminal law and criminal procedure law. And I`m prepared to make sure that, based on my experience overseeing large-scale investigations, there`s continuity of personnel in all of the cases that are pending before the office.
MELBER: You say continuity. Does that mean that you would basically intend to carry out the pending cases, or you might look at them anew or drop some of them?
LANG: I would expect to follow the evidence wherever the evidence may lead and ensure that people are held appropriately accountable, regardless of how powerful or well-connected they may be.
MELBER: When you look at the situation there, do you think, legally, this office, the Manhattan DA, has the authority to indict an ex-president?
LANG: I do.
MELBER: When you look at Donald Trump and the Trump Organization, do you see the outlines of a case here?
I mean, is this something where -- we have talked about this with other people on the program, so viewers may be familiar. The current attorney general, as a candidate, was pretty clear and telling voters that she saw a problem with Donald Trump, without prejudging cases.
That`s kind of the whole reason that there`s a race in the first place, that voters get some sense of where you`re headed. What do you view as the potential legal exposure of Donald Trump? Is that something you`re able to stand up to? Or should voters see you as a blank slate there?
LANG: Ari, I think that one of the worst things the next district attorney could do would be to say something on the campaign trail that would suggest anything other than complete impartiality when it comes to investigating all the cases in front of the office and putting themselves in a position where they might face a recusal motion or removal of jurisdiction.
So I have been very committed to making sure that it is clear that I have the experience to take over that case and all the other pending cases.
And I will tell you that the senior most adviser to my campaign was the former assistant district attorney who handled the first investigation into the Trump Organization. I know what he went through when that case was shut down. And I believe that that case should not have been shut down.
MELBER: And that was under the current DA. You`re talking about the Cy Vance Trump SoHo probe?
LANG: Yes.
MELBER: And why shouldn`t it, in your view, have been shut down?
LANG: Don`t think it`s appropriate to speak to the evidence.
I`m speaking really to the fact that that case, like others, involved backroom meetings between senior staff at the district attorney`s office and well-heeled defense lawyers. And decisions were made that resulted in those cases being concluded.
And I believe that my policy, ensuring equal access for all defense attorneys and no more backroom meetings, gets at precisely what has gone wrong in some of the cases for which the office has borne critique in recent years.
MELBER: Very interesting.
You have given us your perspective, particularly with your background, your history and your ability to speak about past cases, which may or may not be prologue, but all very interesting.
Lucy Lang, thanks for being here.
LANG: Thanks so much for having me, Ari.
Remember to vote everyone. Early voting started this weekend.
MELBER: It`s true. If you`re watching in New York, voting under way.
When we come back, we have something better than any president. That`s one of our favorite fictional presidents in Hollywood, icon Martin Sheen -- next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Now we turn to something very exciting, a former president on THE BEAT.
Many fondly remember President Bartlet, who excelled as a fictional president on "The West Wing," played by the award-winning film icon Martin Sheen, known for countless classics like "Apocalypse Now" and "Wall Street."
His impassioned turned as a compassionate, honest president endeared him to so many news and political junkies, a president who dealt with a broken Congress and hostage-taking Republicans in storylines that, of course, echo today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: We could give every student in America $10,000 a year, but, instead, we fund the Department of Education.
M. SHEEN: You`re not going to demonize the millions of selfless teachers and public servants who are...
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: They`re trapped in a failed system. I can`t stand by.
M. SHEEN: I`m not going to negotiate with anyone who holds a gun to my head. We had a deal. I don`t care if my approval ratings drop into single digits. I am the president of the United States. And I will lead this government shutdown until we reach an equitable agreement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That`s what I`m talking about.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: Martin Sheen, thank you for being here.
A couple other quick shout-outs I want to...
M. SHEEN: Thank you, Ari, for having me here.
MELBER: Absolutely.
I want to I want to tell everybody you`re in this new documentary "The World Is My Country" about actor and activist Garry Davis` lifelong quest for global peace airing on PBS nationwide.
We will get to all of it.
But sorry to be the echo of so many other interviews, but it`s still my question. How does `West Wing" hold up? And how does it apply nowadays?
M. SHEEN: Well, we were on the air from 1999 to 2006. And you could tune in, I guess, to any episode -- I think we did over 150 -- and you could find a very relevant story going on right now today.
MELBER: Yes.
How do you think President Biden is doing coming off one of the most unusual previous predecessors in history?
M. SHEEN: I love this guy named Joe. We couldn`t have gotten a better choice, I don`t think,.
And the fact that he`s -- he`s not a young guy, he`s dealing with -- the time he has is so valuable, and he`s not wasting a single moment.
I -- my heart goes out to him dealing with this guy who really doesn`t care, this -- the guy that`s taking us back to the Soviet Union days. A lot of people are dying because of his leadership, if you want to call it that, in Syria and in Africa and so many other places.
And we saw him this morning in the interview. He doesn`t care. He won`t even mention Navalny`s name.
So, Joe Biden`s got his work cut out for him. I wouldn`t blame him if he stood him up.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: At the summit.
M. SHEEN: If he just didn`t show up for the -- yes, at the summit, just say no. Yes.
MELBER: That would be a move. Yes, that would be -- that`s a -- yes. That`s a...
M. SHEEN: Yes.
MELBER: We were looking...
M. SHEEN: Just give a news conference and just play some of the -- some of the interviews that Putin has done leading up to it, because Putin button is setting himself up.
MELBER: Yes. No, I hear you on that. And we have been covering that as well. And I think Putin is a frustrating -- obviously, a frustrating actor on the international stage.
In looking at your work, we were also thinking about "Wall Street," because we know that the stories that we get, whether they`re in our books or our movies, they reflect back to us what kind of society we want.
You had this famously populist character in that beloved classic "Wall Street." Let`s take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. SHEEN: Fifty thousand dollars. Jesus Christ, the whole world`s off its rocker. I made a total of $47,000 last year. That`s before taxes.
CHARLIE SHEEN, ACTOR: That`s Queens, dad, a 5 percent mortgage, and you rent the top room.
Look, I got to live in Manhattan to be a player. There`s no nobility in poverty anymore, dad.
One day, you`re going to be proud of me. You`ll see.
M. SHEEN: It`s yourself you got to be proud of, Huckleberry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
M. SHEEN: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: How did you embody that spirit?
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: Go ahead.
M. SHEEN: No, I`m saying that it`s about unions, isn`t it? They`re also in jeopardy these days.
And that`s another reason to love this guy named Joe. He supports the unions. And they`re going to become very, very important with the infrastructure -- with the infrastructure bill. So, yes, I`m glad you ran that clip. I`d forgotten how powerful that was, and how good Charlie was, and how young we all looked.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: Hey, your face looks the same.
I do notice -- because I`m very observant, Martin, as a reporter, I notice that your hair is not as dark as it was.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: But your face looks the same, which is pretty good.
M. SHEEN: Thank you for that.
MELBER: But I am curious as well, because you have -- but you have traversed. You`re a Hollywood figure. And that comes with a type of success. But you have done a lot, both in your work, but also in your life, being an activist and advocate.
What do you think about that, when we see, coming through the hardship of this pandemic, the billionaires dodging taxes and amassing more wealth than ever before?
M. SHEEN: Well, the old adage, we serve ourselves best when we serve others first, still holds.
And I think that the pandemic was a great reflection of that, all the heroes, the men and women on the front lines, who many lost their lives in service to others. They could not do what they did and be who they were.
So I think that the pandemic as, please God, we continue to emerge from it, but the lessons and the level of compassion and charity and giving is just overwhelming. And this is going to be a seminal period in our history, when we realize that we belong to a very exclusive club. It`s called the U.S. of A. And the dues are very high.
And all of us have to make a contribution. And I think we saw a reflection, the very best part of who we really are, during this pandemic. The people that came forward in the towns and villages, the major cities and the countrysides, the medical professional alone, the doctors and nurses, the ambulance drivers, the emergency workers, all of these people are a reflection of the very best part of what it means to be an American, what it means to be truly human.
I`m extremely proud.
MELBER: I love that.
Now I got 40 seconds.
The project is "The World Is My Country." Tell us about it.
M. SHEEN: Right.
Well, this is a book by this man, Garry Davis, a fellow actor, deceased now, who was an understudy to Danny Kaye on Broadway in 1940. In 1941, he was drafted. He joined the Army Corps of Engineers. And he became a bombardier pilot in World War II.
His last mission was a bombing raid over (INAUDIBLE) where the Nazis were trying to create the -- an atom bomb. And his plane was badly hit. And he had to make an emergency landing in Sweden.
And the war had a profound effect on him. He felt that it was the -- it was incumbent upon people who had fought it and who came from the countries that had been victorious to serve the whole country -- the whole world as one country.
So, that`s what he did. And he founded this movement, the World Is My Country, which is a quote from Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man."
And this is one of his passports that he -- there are about 600,000 of us. And I was given one as kind of an honorary member.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: Hey, hey. Hey. Look at that, bringing your I.D. Well, look, I love it.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: I have got to pass it Joy.
M. SHEEN: I`m sorry?
MELBER: I`m going to say, I`m going to pass to Joy.
But we have the URL up on the screen so folks can find out a lot more about this documentary.
M. SHEEN: OK.
MELBER: I know that the issue is meaningful to you.
(CROSSTALK)
M. SHEEN: OK.
MELBER: Martin Sheen, thank you so much for coming on.
M. SHEEN: Thank you, Ari.
MELBER: Appreciate it.
M. SHEEN: Please say hello to Nicolle for me.
MELBER: The World -- I will say hello to everybody.
TheWorldIsMyCountry.com. That`s Martin Sheen.
Hello to Nicolle. Hello to Joy. Goodbye to me.
"THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID" is up next.