IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

Transcript: The Beat with Ari Melber, 1/14/22

Guests: Bobby Wooten, Bill Kristol, David Byrne, Nancy Erika Smith

Summary

Congressman Matt Gaetz faces new heat. Musician David Byrne and performer Bobby Wooten speak out. Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes makes his first court appearance for his seditious conspiracy indictment. The reasons why the January 6 investigators want GOP Leader McCarthy to come clean are examined. Is the Supreme Court`s conservative wing now showing an alarming embrace of the right-wing culture war against vaccination?

Transcript

NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER starts right now.

Hi, Ari. Happy Friday.

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Happy Friday. I wish you a very good weekend, Nicolle.

WALLACE: You too, friend.

MELBER: I want to welcome everyone to THE BEAT. I am Ari Melber.

And this is a Friday capping off a packed news week. Later tonight, we turn to some new developments in the sex crimes probe involving Republican Matt Gaetz.

And, as Omicron surges and upends the plan returned to normal for so many, I can tell you that Talking Heads alum David Byrne is here later explaining how his live show is adjusting to safe performances, even when they are down a few musicians.

Our top story right now, though, is the escalation in the criminal probe into the insurrection, as the far right Oath Keepers founder, Stewart Rhodes, just made his first court appearance for his seditious conspiracy indictment, the most serious charge by far in the probe to date.

Rhodes appearing at a federal court in Texas. He was seen in jeans and a T- shirt. And he pled not guilty. He remains in custody, facing up to 20 years in prison on that charge alone, while his estranged ex-wife spoke out today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TASHA ADAMS, EX-WIFE OF STEWART RHODES: I think he planned it very carefully. I think he planned for himself to not get arrested by seemingly to stay out of the Capitol himself.

But that -- the entire stack, the people that went in, the entire event, I -- to me, I see his fingerprints all over it. And I think, even though, from the outside, oh, I told them not to go in, we were just there for -- we were just there for -- to guard people, it`s silly, but it`s very -- it`s also very carefully planned to keep himself -- to keep himself out of trouble.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: She helped him in some ways start the Oath Keepers. But that`s her view of what`s going on now, the view of someone who knows him.

And prosecutors are drawing on a range of evidence to actually make a similar point, that this defendant planned sedition, even as he avoided taking greater personal risk by not going into the building.

They have evidence he spent a whopping $33,000 purchasing guns and ammo for the sedition plot. Two days before the riot, he discussed plans to use force to overthrow the incoming Biden administration. And in a verbal trick out of Trump`s playbook, he also, you will see here, accuses others of his own offense. He falsely claims that Trump leaving office after Trump`s lawful loss -- Trump was the loser of the election -- that that would be an attempt to -- quote -- "remove him illegally."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEWART RHODES, FOUNDER AND LEADER, OATH KEEPERS: We have been already stationed outside D.C. as a nuclear option. And in a case they attempt to remove the president illegally, we will step in and stop it.

And we`re going to be there to also help secure the coming rally this Saturday and your caravan coming in. So I have got good men on the ground already. We have been -- did recon there last week. And we`re sorting out. We`re going to be staging and we will be there. We will be inside D.C. We will also be on the outside D.C. armed prepared to go in if the president calls us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: Armed, they were. He mentioned at the end he was awaiting the president`s calls.

And, of course, some of the Trump -- longest-serving Trump advisers were at least also operationally near these Oath Keepers. Here`s Roger Stone with them on January 6, hours before the Oath Keepers were using that stack formation that we just heard about.

The DOJ`s new updated indictment charges 10 people. Another Oath Keeper, Edward Vallejo, made a court appearance remotely from jail in Phoenix today as well, pleading not guilty.

All right, you are now up to date on the legal side of it. So what does it mean? There`s so much chaos these days, and there`s so much extremism, and there is a lot of hyperbole, it would be easy to lose the thread or let this very serious development, this indictment pass us by.

But I will tell you what it means. For the first time, right now, the federal government`s approaching the pro-Trump insurrection as more than trespassing or isolated violence. DOJ is treating it as part of a wider sedition plot to overthrow the government, a conspiracy, two or more people who planned and executed violence to end democracy and try to make Donald Trump your dictator.

And we know Donald Trump agreed at least with the outcome. He did back overthrowing the lawful election. And DOJ is still investigating whether any of his own aides were involved enough to be charged in this conspiracy as well. That`s also new.

And all this is against a legal backdrop, where the Republican Party`s top officials are embracing more authoritarian tactics, more talk of the right type of coup or the right type of procedural means to cancel an election`s outcome, to cancel what you, the voters, decide.

When you study this stuff, in political science, they say that, when a country needs to have police presence or extensive prosecution just to secure free elections, when they see that abroad, well, that`s a weak democracy.

[18:05:10]

Well, tonight, as we end this week, look in the mirror America. That`s where we are now, weak, indeed. To quote the great Jay Electronica, when I look inside the mirror, all I see is flaws.

It`s the flaws and the cracks in our body politic that has the DOJ arresting and trying sedition plotters, sedition. It`s a Civil War era thing. They`re doing it to try to protect democracy, as well as enforce the law, which is their job.

The democracy they`re trying to protect has been weakened by these indicted plotters, and, yes, their elite Republican enablers. Whether that crosses a criminal line or not is something the DOJ will test, but it`s not the only or most important thing, if people in power use their power to forge common cause with what you see on your screen.

Look in the mirror and see our flaws, while there`s still time to deal with them. Whether these flaws and wounds will heal or are a precursor to something worse that we will all have to live through, that depends on the rule of law and an engaged public.

I want to turn to our experts now, former U.S. attorney Joyce Vance and director of Defending Democracy Together Bill Kristol.

And Joyce and I have been trying to deal with the law on this since the news broke yesterday. And we will do that in this segment.

But, Bill, I turn to you first not for a technical legal analysis, but for this broader question of the type of enabling that went on and continues to go on of what people saw on their screen there, someone who, while legally presumed innocent, has a lot of evidence against him for sedition for overthrowing our government in this moment.

BILL KRISTOL, DIRECTOR, DEFENDING DEMOCRACY TOGETHER: A couple of points, Ari.

I think you`re absolutely right that it`s unfortunate sign of weakness in a democracy that we have to go through this. And you don`t want to get in a position where each administration uses the criminal justice system to go after its predecessors, which is why, traditionally, we have tended to shy away from this kind of thing.

And I think someone like the attorney general, Merrick Garland, his instincts would be, if we can -- don`t have to do this, we shouldn`t do it. But I think he`s looked at an awful lot of evidence and thinks we have to do this for the sake of the country.

And if you look at the way previous -- we have dealt with previous scandals, previous attempts to corrupt our democracy, look at Watergate. Everyone remembers Woodward and Bernstein and the media. Everyone remembers Sam Ervin and Howard Baker, the congressional committee. They have their counterparts in these last two, three, four years.

People tend to forget, in a funny way, I think, Judge John Sirica. He was crucial. When you really go through the sequence of how the whole thing unraveled, his criminal -- his presiding over the trial, and being a tough law and order judge, but not hostile to -- he was an Eisenhower appointee. He wasn`t some Democratic activist, but insisting on the truth was really important.

And we went ahead with criminal prosecutions of a ton of people in the White House, the Republican -- in -- people close to the administration, sort of the equivalents of the Roger Stone types.

And I think that was important to show that the system would bring justice. Now, Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon. One can debate that, but even that, when you think about it for a minute, he pardoned him on a criminal charge, which shows in a sense that the criminal justice system was willing to go right to the top. It would have indicted Nixon, I think, in that case, in 1974-`75.

So I think the criminal -- you want to be wary about using the -- about weaponizing, so to speak, the criminal justice system, the Justice Department, the courts, but I think if the -- if, on the merits, it`s necessary, it has to be done.

And I think what we have seen with the Oath Keepers indictment, and I would also say incidentally, these electors, the Trump electors` forgeries, the fraudulent slates they submitted, the collusion to get -- to make that happen, I think you need to now have the criminal justice system involved, as well as the congressional committee, as well as the media, and as well as all of us trying to make sure this doesn`t happen again.

MELBER: Yes, and we will put the conspiracy language for sedition on the screen.

And, Joyce, you can walk us through your thoughts on the legal side.

JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: The most important thing here, Ari, is something that you pointed out yesterday.

It`s that this is how DOJ is now framing what happened on January 6. They have applied this label of seditious conspiracy to what happened on that day. It`s no longer a terrorist event. It`s no longer people who were trespassing. It`s a very serious crime that aimed at the use of force to overthrow our government.

There are technical requirements here that the government will have to prove if these cases go to trial or even to accept guilty pleas. And so it`s, I think, easy, and, sometimes, pundits and politicians aren`t quite as precise with their language as we would hope that would be, but when DOJ uses this sort of language to describe conduct, they have to have the ability to prove it in a courtroom beyond a reasonable doubt.

[18:10:09]

And so here they believe that they can prove that there was an agreement among these defendants and that they intended to achieve this illegal objective to interfere with the transfer of power, that they were able to use force; $33,000 will buy you a lot of firepower, even if you do it as you`re driving through Mississippi, which is part of the allegation in this indictment.

So there is a lot of meat on the bones here. DOJ is not playing around.

MELBER: One of the co-defendants in this indictment went to Tucker Carlson last night. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THOMAS CALDWELL, DEFENDANT: Tucker, I did not go into the Capitol and they know it. I`m absolutely outraged. They don`t have any proof. And I`m innocent, and we can prove my innocence.

This whole thing has just crushed my wife and I emotionally and financially. We have all the faith in the world in God. We believe that this is good vs. evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: Joyce?

VANCE: You should never, ever do that as a defendant.

The specifics here aren`t damaging, but DOJ is probably entitled to get all of the outtakes, anything else that went on here. And just the fact that an individual who is under indictment is trying to minimize what happened, undoubtedly, it comes back to bite them at some point in time.

I think, Ari, some of these people, some of the defendants will look at the amount of time they`re potentially facing in prison, decades of time in prison, and will decide that it`s in their best interests to cooperate with prosecutors.

And that`s when this will get interesting, because we see some echoes here. It`s fascinating to me that Stewart Rhodes, the lead defendant in this particular conspiracy, the head of the Oath Keepers has put out in public the notion that he didn`t enter the Capitol, so he can`t be guilty.

And that`s a little bit of an echo of Roger Stone, who was present in D.C., who was in fact surrounded by Oath Keepers for security, but who is also said that he didn`t participate in the rallies. He didn`t go to the Capitol that day.

And there`s a saying in law enforcement that there`s no such thing as a coincidence when it comes to law enforcement. These are the kind of issues that you would want to push on, right? Why did they stay away?

MELBER: Yes.

VANCE: Rhodes is a Yale-educated lawyer. He`s trying to use that to say he couldn`t have committed a crime. Putting this in that context makes it look a little bit sketchy.

MELBER: Yes.

And that goes, Bill, to something that you don`t need a law degree to know, which is Steve Jobs did not go into the iPhone factories to produce them himself. And John Gotti didn`t go do the hits himself. And I think everyone seen enough movies to understand that.

As a final thought in this segment, Bill, I`m curious, where does the Republican leadership go when it has really become an insurrection-adjacent party with the level of minimization, Ted Cruz famously having a grovel at that same show I just broadcast a clip from, Tucker Carlson, when he accurately said last week that this was terrorism, and then had to walk it back?

That`s the state of some Republican leaders, Bill.

KRISTOL: No, it`s awful, in my view.

But just to build on Joyce`s point, just what day -- when were they there again? This wasn`t Trump generally saying the Congress is horrible, they all -- they should be denounced, and then a few thousand, a few other people gather and storm the Capitol, and maybe Trump`s responsible, maybe he`s not, that it was sort of a weird just they decided to do it on a certain day.

It was January 6. Why were they there January 6? To overturn the election results, to stop the counting of the ballots. Was Trump encouraging that? Yes. Was Trump trying to get a Justice Department to work with outside people to get the fake electoral slates into play and to make Rosen head of the Justice Department, and then have -- of course, the Eastman memo lays this out. We can stop the counting of these seven states and then it will get thrown to the House or whatever.

I mean, the whole -- it`s more of a plot, more of a plan. It`s a somewhat chaotic and haphazard plan maybe, but it`s a plan. And the violence and the pressure was part of it. What happened with the electors was part of it. The Eastman memo was part of it. DOJ, DOD are parts of it.

And I think -- it seems to me that the combination of the January 6 Committee and the Justice Department are really beginning to expose this in a way we didn`t quite know before.

MELBER: Yes, all very important points on more than one dimension.

Bill and Joyce, thanks to both of you.

We have a break, but I`m about to show you coming up the tape we have been putting together that really shows why the investigators want GOP Leader McCarthy to come clean.

And a big development in the Matt Gaetz sex trafficking probe. We have an expert here.

And by the end of the hour, as promised, we have a very special conversation with rock legend David Byrne, how he`s reimagining his own Broadway music show for the Omicron surge. He`s live tonight on THE BEAT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:18:39]

MELBER: Turn into something you really need to see.

We have talked about how this January 6 set of investigations are on two tracks. There`s the track with the DOJ doing the criminal probe, the seditious conspiracy and a whole range of other charges.

Then there`s the congressional probe. And it`s doing a lot of things that are different, appropriately so, from the criminal legal bar. Right now, there`s a question about how much pressure to put on the Republican leader to come forward and talk.

House Leader McCarthy once claimed he would cooperate, now is refusing. And the committee is weighing something that wouldn`t come without some debate, whether they escalate to subpoena him, as well as some other Trump allies.

McCarthy, though, makes for a very interesting character here. He did initially denounce Trump in the wake of the insurrection. Then he went down to Mar-a-Lago within weeks, trying to basically take it all back.

And we want to show you how all over the place he`s been.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): The president bears responsibility for Wednesday`s attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding.

My criticism -- my criticism went to everyone on that day. Why was the capital so ill-prepared that day?

QUESTION: You made comments about the president, though.

[18:20:01]

MCCARTHY: Why was the Capitol so ill-prepared that day?

REP. JAIME HERRERA BEUTLER (R-WA): The president to him -- this is as it`s happening -- he said: "Well, Kevin, these aren`t my people. These are Antifa."

And Kevin responded and said: "No, they`re your people. They literally just came through my office windows. And my staff are running for cover."

MCCARTHY: My conversation was very short, advising the president of what was happening here.

QUESTION: Would you be willing to testify about your conversation with Donald Trump on January 6, if you were asked by an outside commission?

MCCARTHY: Sure.

QUESTION: When you asked me that question, never did I think a speaker would play such politics.

There is nothing that I can provide the January 6 Committee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: It`s not the news reporting to Kevin McCarthy`s positions don`t make any sense. It`s Kevin McCarthy. He`s on both sides of this.

And it`s not one of those things where it`s some 10-year-old remark. This has all been unfolding in real time.

The committee now telling McCarthy they want the information on his January 6 call with Trump regarding his state of mind and any talk of immediate resignation, which, again, is the type of stuff that Congress can look at separate from DOJ, because Congress is considering how to prevent this type of problem in the future, which includes interbranch relations.

McCarthy is not the only Republican having problems here. There are top Republicans who marked the anniversary of this horrific terrorist event with silence or deflection. Some skipped these obser -- I should say, observances entirely.

Take Senator Rubio. On January 6, `21, he said: "There`s nothing patriotic about what`s occurring on Capitol Hill. This is Third World style anti- American anarchy."

That was Senator Rubio. He saw it. He said it. To quote the Internet phrase, he said what he said.

But here`s how he sounds now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): They believe this ridiculous narrative that every Republican, every Republican is an insurrectionist, probably a racist, wants to overthrow the U.S. government and wants to destroy democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: That`s the new sort of straw person argument, by the way, that you can`t condemn this terrorist insurrection that was done in service of Donald Trump for all the reasons we have already shown you tonight.

And the reason you can`t do it is that, somewhere, someone is claiming all Republicans are insurrections. You notice he didn`t quote anyone saying that. That`s obviously not true. Many, many Republicans are not insurrectionists. But, boy, are more at risk of becoming that if you keep dodging the basic condemnation of the terror.

Or take Mitch McConnell. Here he was last year:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): There`s no question, none, that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: No question, a moral issue.

And yet, when you look at the anniversary last week, he said: "It`s been studying to see Washington Democrats tried to exploit the anniversary to advance partisanship."

And then I have called limbo, because, after each low, there`s a new low, but perhaps the most craven, rank, humiliating self-own comes from Senator Lindsey Graham.

If you have empathy -- and we all try to -- it can be hard to watch this type of video, because Lindsey Graham makes himself look ridiculous. Think about how he used to publicly decry Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): All I can say is, count me out. Enough is enough.

Joe Biden, he won.

I`m not going to vote for anybody that can`t have a working relationship with President Trump.

I think he`s a kook. I think he`s crazy. I think he`s unfit for office. He`s a race-baiting, xenophobic, religious bigot.

You have to have a working relationship with President Donald Trump. He`s the most consequential Republican since Ronald Reagan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: Consequential is a funny word to say now in a potentially, in his view, positive way about someone that you called such a bigot, kook, unfit for office.

This is where so many top Republicans are about the twice-impeached-loser- turned-ex-blogger in Florida. That`s tape you need to see.

We have our shortest break right now, 60 seconds, and then we`re back with a whole lot of news on COVID and the implication from that big Supreme Court ruling.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:50]

MELBER: More people headed to hospitals with COVID these days. Bed capacity has actually hit 80 percent in over 20 states. And the new Supreme Court ruling actually makes it harder for the government to ensure people don`t show up at work actively contagious.

The Biden administration had a testing or vaccine mandate for large companies, which was just blocked by the court, even amidst this surge. The case was not about requiring vaccination, because anyone could just get tested to go to work.

Critics say the court`s conservative wing is now showing an alarming embrace of the right-wing culture war against vaccination.

We`re joined by "The New York Times"` Michelle Goldberg.

Michelle, your thoughts on the ruling and where we go from here?

MICHELLE GOLDBERG, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: I think that headline you just saw - - that you just showed, the piece by Adam Serwer, really nailed it.

What was alarming about this ruling, besides just its deviation from the plain language of the law, right -- there`s specific federal statute that authorizes OSHA to make emergency regulations when -- I believe the word is when there`s a new hazard. I don`t see how anybody could define COVID as anything else.

So they have sort of made up all these reasons to -- why the COVID vaccine doesn`t apply. But, again, what I think Adam Serwer gets that is both their questioning during the hearings on this and some of the language in the opinion itself suggests a kind of marination in -- although they go out of their way to say, no, we`re not questioning the efficacy or safety of the vaccine, there is the sense that the vaccine is this kind of dangerous imposition on people that they all buy into.

MELBER: Right.

And I stress this because so much of the language occludes the facts. The rule was just to get tested. And that`s no different than not showing up to work with Ebola. And you don`t know what the next pandemic is going to be, but the idea that the government can`t even play a role in trying to make sure people aren`t actively contagious, totally separate from vaccination debates, which I do think can for some people touch on deeper personal matters, is just wild, to use a non-legal term.

(CROSSTALK)

MELBER: Go ahead.

GOLDBERG: Oh, sorry.

I said they also made this wild point that it`s not specifically a workplace issue because COVID is prevalent in other places, which is just an astonishing argument, because not only are all -- I can think of very few workplace hazards that are only specific to workplaces, but most other places, besides school, where COVID is present, are optional.

That`s what makes work -- that`s what makes work special.

MELBER: Yes. Yes.

And people talk about individual liberty. I mean, if someone has to go to work in order to live, and they want to be able to have some sense that they`re not going to then contract something that they bring home, maybe to an immunocompromised person or a child or whatever else, their rights obviously come into play as well.

I was just going to say, here`s how some of this played on FOX News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS: The Supreme Court has struck down Joe Biden`s patently insane and obviously unconstitutional vax mandate.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: The most sweeping mandate imposed on private employers is now officially dead.

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS: A huge victory to the pro-freedom crowd.

CARLSON: Another dramatic overreach from a completely out-of-control administration that believes it knows more about health and science than doctors and nurses.

HANNITY: It is a massive win for freedom, for private businesses, for medical privacy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: Michelle?

GOLDBERG: Again, I don`t want to just keep quoting Adam Serwer, but I really think that that piece that he wrote shows how much the -- that vaccination has become completely subsumed by the culture wars.

So, even if you`re not anti-vax -- and some of those hosts are certainly vaccinated. You have to be vaccinated or test to work at FOX News.

[18:30:00]

Nevertheless, a sort of hostility to the vaccine, certainly, and a hostility to any incentives or any coercion to get the vaccine, skepticism about vaccinations has become so much a part of the culture of conservatism that, in some ways, it even supersedes fealty to Donald Trump.

You have Ron DeSantis, the one sort of point of leverage that he seems to be able to find in trying to displace Donald Trump as the leader of the Republican Party is criticizing him for being too cautious on COVID, right, and sort of making a big deal about defying mandates, refusing to say whether he`s had a booster.

And so, again, sort of hostility to COVID mitigation measures is almost, I think, at this point more important to the conservative movement even than Donald Trump.

MELBER: Yes, fair.

And, clearly, people need to read Adam`s piece.

(LAUGHTER)

MELBER: Michelle Goldberg, thank you, and have a good weekend.

GOLDBERG: Thank you.

MELBER: Absolutely.

Coming up, a new development in the Matt Gaetz sex crime probe. That`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MELBER: New heat on Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz.

The sentencing date now officially set for his ally who was convicted of so many crimes. Joel Greenberg, the former Florida official, faces a judge in March, which is pretty soon. He pled guilty to several charges, including sex trafficking a minor, stalking and wire fraud.

[18:35:09]

Now, he`s been cooperating with the pro which includes matters that relate to Gaetz, who was under investigation for some possible crime. He`s not been charged. He denies all wrongdoing. And it comes amid news that his ex- girlfriend, Gaetz`s ex-girlfriend, actually faced this very federal grand jury.

I`m joined now by civil rights attorney Nancy Erika Smith.

Welcome back

NANCY ERIKA SMITH, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Thank you.

MELBER: So much of this has centered on the link to this convicted sex offender Greenberg.

It`s publicly documented their alliance, which was so serious that Matt Gaetz, rather than just sort of minimizing or lying about it, which has been a political trick of some, he went on local TV and just said, yes, we were allies, but I take it all back.

I`m going to show you just briefly. Take a look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): I believe there may have been a time where Greenberg swung by the office, but it certainly didn`t have anything to do with any bad acts on my part.

When I became aware of some of Greenberg`s misdeeds, I deeply regretted my friendship with him. I deeply regret my association with Joel Greenberg politically, socially, and otherwise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: That`s what Gaetz said.

Is it possible that he could have exposure, though, from whatever friendship they did share or things they did? And what`s your reaction to this new testimony?

SMITH: Well, this is another Trump ally that`s in very serious legal problems.

For one thing, Joel Greenberg has to provide substantial help to current probes in order to get any leniency. And he`s looking at a minimum of 12 years in prison. He has testified that he has pled guilty to sex trafficking a minor.

The minor in issue allegedly is a 17-year-old who Greenberg introduced to Gaetz, one of many young women he apparently introduced to Gaetz from these sugar daddy Web sites, where you pay these young women in Venmos and claim that it`s for school or tuition.

And these have been released. We have seen many of these Venmo payment. Now a young woman who get Gaetz met when -- she was in college. He was in his late 30s. He got her an internship in college and began -- in Congress -- and began to date her. Now she has testified this week before the grand jury.

She is significant, because she was on the Bahamas trip, which is a serious allegation that Gaetz and Greenberg went to the Bahamas with this girlfriend, who was a congressional intern, and several young women, including a 17-year-old. The allegation is that it was a drug-fueled bacchanalia in the Bahamas.

And Greenberg has said that both he and Gaetz had sex with the underage young girl, and that he actually saw Gaetz have sex with the underage young girl.

So, these are very serious allegations. It`s a violation of the Mann Act to transport a woman, especially a woman underage, and to give gifts or money in exchange for sex. It`s a minimum of 10 years in prison.

MELBER: Yes, a serious -- as you say, a serious offense there that could overlap with potential testimony. We have to see what comes out of it, but all very serious stuff.

Nancy Erika Smith, for the legal breakdown, thank you very much.

SMITH: Thank you.

MELBER: Absolutely.

We have a lot more coming up, including the Talking Heads` David Byrne.

But, first, a little good news on a Friday, and it relates to a breakthrough both for the Biden administration and students and parents around the nation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:42:57]

MELBER: On a per capita basis, it`s more expensive to try to go to college in the current era than any time in history, which has made student loan issues and debts such a big political and policy debate.

And we have big news on that right now. One of the largest student loan providers is now, thanks to a lawsuit demanding justice, giving in, and not to a small tune either. They`re canceling $1.7 billion in debt -- billion - - for over 60,000 people who had participated in these student loans.

This company, which many of you I`m sure are familiar with, Navient, was accused of deliberately handing out loans to borrowers who basically would struggle to repay it, and they knew it, and then pushing them towards costly plans that created a debt spiral, rather than helping them just get out of the debt through available repayment options.

Navient did not admit any wrongdoing in the settlement, other than, well, of course, the money they`re paying, but that`s a pretty common legal maneuver. It affects people in 39 states. And the context, as I mentioned, is broad; 50 million Americans struggle with student debt. The average student borrows more than $30,000 for an undergrad degree. This is $1.7 trillion in our economy.

Meanwhile, another lawsuit filed just this week accuses 16 universities of basically conspiring to cut financial aid offers in a price-fixing scheme. It`s all part of the broader issue of this rising cost of education I mentioned. And it`s something that many leaders have actually been trying to tackle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): Sixty-three percent of borrowers who made payments with Navient during the COVID forbearance still owe more now than they originally borrowed.

We, as a country, are profiting off of insurmountable and crushing educational debt. And it is wrong.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): We should not be punishing people for getting higher education. It is time to hit the reset button.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:45:06]

MELBER: And, by the way, that view that you have to do a reset of some sort because this isn`t working, well, it`s gotten a partial cosign from President Biden.

He put a pause on these federal student loan payments, and then re-extended that. It runs currently until May.

Going to fit in a break.

But I promised you a good end to this broadcast. And by the end of the hour, we will hear from David Byrne himself from the Talking Heads, the "American Utopia" show starring David Byrne and Bobby Wooten. They`re both here live.

Creativity, adaptation and staying safe -- next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MELBER: We are in year three of this here pandemic, and the Omicron surge is complicating many industries that tried to reopen or nudge back towards normal.

Take theater, where tight indoor spaces offer more risk and lead to more, basically, needs to completely shut down than other industries. The lights went dark when COVID hit Broadway. Then they did reopen with some feelings of triumph. But now some plays and musicals on Broadway are struggling with new outbreaks and even closures.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The much-anticipated return of live theater is something we have all been waiting for.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Broadway is back in New York.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can feel the excitement in the air, as Broadway comes back to life.

[18:50:02]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More curtains close on Broadway. COVID causes some of the biggest shows to shut down again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The alarming spike taking its toll on some of the city`s most beloved institutions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: That`s been the zigzag.

And the stakes can be even higher for these productions. It`s a big part of New York culture and Midtown economy, but shuttering for even a few weeks can be devastating for a show.

Now, some shows have lost so many cast members to Omicron lately that they can`t put on the whole show. Others are finding creative solutions.

Take the Talking Heads` David Byrne. He is offering refunds to ticket holders when there were nights where too many band members were out to do the original show or the option to attend a reimagined performance.

As "The New Yorker" reports, Byrne told fans: "You can cash in your ticket, or you can have what`s behind this curtain a show you will never, ever see again."

And so the award-winning "American Utopia" show goes on.

Now, if any of this looks familiar, maybe you have heard about the show because it`s been a big hit. I have seen it. Maybe you saw when it aired on HBO. Or maybe you saw Byrne on "Morning Joe" discussing how music and culture spark hope in tough times.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID BYRNE, CREATOR, "AMERICAN UTOPIA": But I have also made an effort to try and -- try and hold on to some kind of hope, that parts of us are -- things are improving in some ways.

That`s not to say that everything`s going to be all right and we don`t have to do anything. But there is cause for hope. And we are maybe better than we think we are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MELBER: Here`s to hope and creativity in something special to end the week.

"American Utopia" creator David Byrne joins us right now -- full disclosure, I grew up listening to Talking Heads -- along with his lead basis, Bobby Wooten III, who has performed at every iteration of the show and who, full disclosure, is actually a good friend of mine. Viewers have the right to know.

Thanks to both of you for being here, guys.

BOBBY WOOTEN III, PERFORMER: Oh, it`s a pleasure.

BYRNE: Thank you. Thank you.

MELBER: I love having you together.

David, first to you.

What is behind the curtain? How are you iterating or improvising changes to the show amidst these challenges?

BYRNE: As you said, we were faced with the same kind of challenges as a lot of other shows.

We had a lot of cast members who had tested positive. We shut down for a few days. And then we realized, oh, we can do this kind of unplugged, unchained thing. It`s not going to be the same show. But we can learn some new songs.

We kind of all worked over the holidays. Over the holidays, we were all e- mailing and sending music back and forth and going, let`s learn this one, let`s learn this one. And in like two-and-a-half days, we had a new show together and we were back on stage.

Luckily -- I mean, we had a great time doing it. Audiences loved it. But now everybody`s out of quarantine, and we`re back.

MELBER: How did that feel, Bobby?

And was the different show any better perhaps than the original full show?

(LAUGHTER)

BYRNE: Hey.

WOOTEN: I don`t want to judge them like that.

But I will say it was like sort of a breath of fresh air, where we have done this other show, and it`s great, and I love that I`m about to do it again tonight. But learning 13 of his other songs that I have never played -- so the second he sent the e-mail, he was like, if you want to request some, I had like three in mind very, very quickly that I`d love to see us do.

And so it was just kind of we rolled with it through that adversity. And it was a really fun thing to pull off. I did spend Christmas Day writing out charts, but -- writing out songs. But I love to do it, so...

MELBER: Well, and, David, you have played in so many different ways over the years.

I know our viewers know your work from just the last time you were on THE BEAT. How do you feel the audience reaction? Can you feel or tell on Broadway when it`s different, that they`re different? Or you`re just in your own vibe doing your thing?

BYRNE: You mean post-pandemic?

MELBER: Yes, when you did these altered shows.

BYRNE: Oh, when we did those shows. The audience was kind of thrilled. They were thrilled.

I mean, they were thrilled to hear the songs. And -- but they could tell that we just put -- we put this together for them. And they felt -- people come from out of town. They have got tickets. They don`t want to come and go, oh, your show is closed. So, we gave them something, gave them the choice to see something, and they loved it.

MELBER: Yes.

No, and it is -- I mean, I love the way you put it. And that`s the showman in you, which is, in addition to the talents you have that people love, but what`s behind this curtain? And, yes, OK, it might be -- it might miss one of the big numbers. I have seen the show more than one, so you`re not doing the big number, but there`s going to be something else dope in there.

Because this is the end of the week, we often do "Fallback" here. So, in addition to the shout-out to the -- to "American Utopia," we want to ask you guys any "Fallback"s you have.

[18:55:03]

I will go to Bobby.

Anything on your mind that should fall back after this wild week?

WOOTEN: Yes.

I want any hospital around the country that is forcing nurses to take vacation or sick days when they fall ill from COVID, I want them to fall back.

I can only imagine if I was the one taking care of sick people with COVID every single day. People are banging pots and pans in the beginning, calling me heroes, and then now, when my employer won`t -- when I go down, it`s like my employer won`t even cover that cost, it would not feel the best.

MELBER: I think that`s a great point. As you say, it reminds us that how things have evolved from phase one and all the beautiful talk about how we want to support, but in a capitalist country, we have to do that support and make it real and make sure these institutions or companies are doing that if it`s going to be real for front-line workers.

David, for people who have seen the show, you do a lot in a nonpartisan way about democracy, about participation. You have a great feature where you kind of shine a light on the audience and show who`s really voting and not.

And so what`s been on your mind on a "Fallback"?

BYRNE: I read something recently about a judge in Wisconsin who ruled that absentee ballots, the boxes where you put them in, would not be allowed in Wisconsin, so, early voting, absentee ballots.

And I just thought, what are those people supposed to do? Where are they supposed to put their votes? It`s basically voter suppression. It`s like, oh, we`re just closing the poll, that we`re not going to let you vote. And I thought, this guy needs to fall back.

In our country, when I was in school, we learned that voting is a kind of a sacred right. It`s -- and if we don`t have it, we don`t have a democracy.

MELBER: Yes.

What made you confident that you could weave that into the show, but still keep people entertained and happy?

Bobby and I go to a lot of concerts. We have been to concerts together. There`s plenty of them where people -- people don`t want to talk about the things that they -- the three of us and a lot of our BEAT viewers might be interested in.

Sometimes, people are like, oh, that`s -- quote -- "politics."

Tell us how you weave that in.

BYRNE: I try to make it nonpartisan. And I try to find some humor or some entertaining aspect of it.

As you said, yes, we shine a light on part of the audience and go, this -- these -- this is the percentage that votes in local elections, so that people can see it. They can see what a small number it is. And I say to the audience, so those people just decided what`s happening in their life -- in your life for the rest of you and your children. They have decided for you.

Do you want that? You want them to just -- you`re handing them the keys, going to say, OK, whatever you want, I will do it? Is that the way it`s going to work? Yes.

It becomes kind of entertaining.

MELBER: Yes.

Bobby, you guys have played the show and other related versions around the world. What part -- because I always think it`s interesting to think about how we`re viewed elsewhere, and culture and music is such a big part of that.

What parts did you think ever -- that you could tell resonated with audiences in other countries or had, I don`t know, tension, backlash, anything like that?

WOOTEN: Certainly, performing the cover of Janelle Monae`s "Hell You Talmbout," where we don`t even get political, it`s just about saying the names of peoples whose lives were taken by -- mainly by police.

But there`s a difference when we`re doing it in New York vs. when we were doing it sometimes in Florida and other states, as that was -- as that was traveling around, and, I mean, eye-opening.

And there`s even the difference of the time that we were doing it of in 2018 vs. a post-2020 George Floyd America as well. And, honestly, it`s also a testament to the show overall, because there`s several themes that we do that, that we were talking about in 2018, and they still stand just as true or if not truer today.

And there`s a lot of timeless values that anyone can take out of seeing the show.

MELBER: Yes, I hear that.

My last question is going to be for Bobby.

But, David, I`m just going to put him on the spot, because we are here on live TV. You guys are in your theater.

Bobby, what`s your favorite and best Talking Heads song?

WOOTEN: Oh, it`s like that.

BYRNE: Yes, you put him on the spot.

WOOTEN: It`s like that.

Talking Heads specifically, I have to go, not any David Byrne?

MELBER: Any Byrne.

WOOTEN: Any Byrne.

"Everyone`s in Love With You."

MELBER: Respect.

BYRNE: That`s the one -- Bobby asked that: "Can we do that on the special show?"

WOOTEN: Had to.

MELBER: There you go.

BYRNE: And I thought, it`s not an up-tempo...

(CROSSTALK)

MELBER: And that brings us...

BYRNE: But it`s a...

(CROSSTALK)

WOOTEN: I`m a big sucker for ballads, if anyone -- anyone who knows me.

BYRNE: Yes, it`s a nice ballad.

(LAUGHTER)

MELBER: And we`re full circle.

And that ends the show and the week for us.

So, I appreciate both of you, David Byrne and Bobby Wooten, from "American Utopia."

Keep on rocking in a free world.

BYRNE: Thank you.

WOOTEN: Thanks for having us.

BYRNE: Thank you for having us on.

MELBER: Thank you both. Appreciate you guys.

That does it for us. As mentioned, THE BEAT is over.

MSNBC goes on, though. "THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID" starts right now.