Summary
The Department of Justice has subpoenaed Trump White House counsel Pat Cipollone. And today we learned it has also subpoenaed his deputy, Pat Philbin. The jury in Alex Jones`s defamation trial ended the first day of deliberations just a few hours ago. Jurors will now decide if Alex Jones owes $150 million in damages for the pain he inflicted on the parents of a child killed in the Sandy Hook massacre after years of lying about the shooting. Heather McGhee to quit her job at Demos to travel around America and meet the Americans who are coming together across racial lines to fight for solutions in their cities and towns.
Transcript
ZERLINA MAXWELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening. Thank you so much, Ali.
Tonight, I am hopeful. American democracy is very much still alive. You know, we focus so much on the threats to our democracy and they are very real and very, very serious. But last night, Kansas showed us the antidote.
Voting, organizing, knocking on doors and working the pavement to create change. Reporting on the results and calling victory for the pro-choice side in Kansas last night on this very hour, I was thinking about all the people I don`t know personally but who I knew made it happen, organizers, door knockers, people powered politics.
My very first job in politics was as a field organizer in Virginia for Barack Obama in 2008. I learn more from politics in that one single job than any other job I`ve ever had. And that`s because in order to be a good organizer, you have to know the policy backwards and forwards, and you have to know the talking points as well as the defenses.
And you apply that knowledge to the very most important skill -- talking to people. You have to be able to have a conversation with another human being. Imagine that. Truly a lost art.
My first guest tonight will be two young organizers, 19 and 21 years young, who have thrown themselves into this fight. One knocking on doors in Kansas and one knocking down Congressman Matt Gaetz, while raising millions of dollars for abortion funds and support of reproductive freedom.
And after that, I`ll be joined by the old hand millennial organizing veteran, Lauren Groh-Wargo, who`s been working for change every day in Georgia, change that we can all potentially benefit from.
Last night, voters in Kansas voted for choice by an 18-point margin, in a state where Donald Trump beat Joe Biden by 15 points.
"Politico" notes, if the politics of Roe proved fraught for Republicans in Kansas, it`s going to be even more treacherous for the GOP in swinger, more moderate swath of the country.
Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer echoed that exact message earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): A strong pro-choice turnout we saw last night in Kansas will continue well into the fall, and Republicans who side with these extremist MAGA policies that attack women`s rights do so at their own political risk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MAXWELL: Turnout in Kansas reached almost presidential levels. Over 900,000 people voted, nearly two and even three times as high as previous primaries and two thirds of the turnout in the 2020 presidential election. That turnout reveals just how much the Republican Party miscalculated voter support for abortion rights and what can be an ominous sign of things to come this November.
But it`s also a victory for organizers on the ground who tuned out all the political punditry and the analysts and mobilizing galvanized voters through the polls by knocking on doors and actually talking to them about what this amendment would`ve meant for real women and people in the state of Kansas. Fans and severe restrictions on abortion exceptions including no exceptions for rape or incest that are being pushed by Republican legislatures all across America are not with the majority of the American people want.
And when faced with the reality of what that actually means, abortion rights advocates convinced voters to send a strong and clear message, including Republicans. As "The New York Times" notes: Registered Republicans far outnumbered Democrats in the state of Kansas -- and abortion rights activists made explicit appeals to unaffiliated voters and center-right voters.
In interviews last week in populist Johnson County, Kansas, a number of voters said they were registered Republicans but oppose the amendment -- a dynamic that almost certainly played out all across the state, given the margin.
We knew when the Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Wade that it would be a powerful, motivating issue for Democrats. But what we saw last night play out was in Kansas. New polling today shows further movement away from the Republicans extreme agenda.
[22:05:00]
A new Monmouth poll finds that 50 percent of Americans want Democrats in control of the Congress compared to 43 percent who want Republicans to be in charge. And that`s 11-point swing just away from them wrap Republicans just since the month of May.
Last night, reproductive rights advocates celebrated the victory and the message sent to Republicans who don`t support a woman`s right to bodily autonomy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: What`s the message that Kansans sent to the rest of the country tonight?
CHRISTINA OSTMEYER, KANSAS VOTER & ORGANIZER: Don`t mess with us! Seriously. There is more of us than there are of them who are trying to it attack our reproductive rights and freedom, and I think we sent a message that lies, manipulation, voter suppression, the other side can try and use those tactics to try and process but they don`t work. We know our power and we`re going to keep showing up to defend it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MAXWELL: Don`t mess with us. That`s the message that Republicans in the United States Congress and in state legislatures all across the country should here tonight. The vote in Kansas on abortion rights proved that you at home are not alone. You`re in the majority if you support abortion rights and you have the power to create change because you still have the power to vote.
In America and in democracy, the people still have the power, and the way to channel that power is to organize it.
Leading off our discussion tonight is Yazmin Bruno-Valdez, a college student from Kansas who knocked on doors advocating for abortion rights, part of yesterday`s referendum. Also with us Olivia Julianna, activists and strategist for Gen-Z for Change, who raised over $2 million for abortion rights in a response to an attack by Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz.
Thank you both for joining.
Yazmin, I will start with you first. What is your reaction to last night`s result and turn it. Were you surprised at all given what you heard from talking to actual voters in Kansas? What message does a send?
YAZMIN BRUNO-VALDEZ, ABORTION RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, I think it sends a very clear message that we are here and that we aren`t going anywhere, and we`re going to stand for reproductive rights no matter how long and how much work it takes.
As an organizer, I know what I was like to knock on doors and the hot weather and definitely I would do it 1 million times again just to ensure that every person in Kansas would be insured reproductive rights. I was completely amazed and instill so, so excited. I`ve been on cloud nine all day.
MAXWELL: Tell us more about the experience of knocking on doors and talking to voters on the ground. You know, as a political analyst, pundits we sit in studios and we do analysis based on polling data and focus groups. But there`s nothing to compare to actually talking to real people and as you mentioned, it was in the summer which is very hot. So, talk about that experience of actually talking to people about this referendum.
BRUNO-VALDEZ: Yes. So as you mentioned it was really hot but aside from that that didn`t take us away from canvassing and knocking on doors every day that we could. We texted -- we did all sorts of things to ensure that voters were informed, that they knew exactly what we were rooting for.
As you may have known, the amendment was written in a very confusing, very elitist way that if you knew exactly what it meant even if you are super informed and super involved, he still didn`t really know what voting no and what`s voting yes meant. They did that strategically on purpose. They were very well funded campaign. They sent out lots of misinformation and voters were confused.
And that`s exactly what our canvassing efforts trying to fight against. We tried to make sure the people were informed and that low propensity voters, first-time voters, the first time register voters, that they all had the information that they needed to get to the polls, for early and really get their choice of voting being made.
So, we were so excited that we did not lead voter suppression in canvas with all the gerrymandering, this is a non partisan amendment, we`re able to get all the people from both sides of the aisle, Republicans Democrat and anybody under the sun in Kansas.
MAXWELL: I love all of that because it gives people some color about what that experience was like if they haven`t done at themselves.
And, Olivia, you were body shamed by Matt Gaetz. I actually haven`t asked you before. But what was your first thought? Was it let`s raise some of money for abortion funds?
[22:10:02]
I mean, why did you use a personal attack against you, a private citizen, a 19 year old, from a congressman to help you fund-raise or the issue to erase care so much about?
OLIVIA JULIANNA, GEN-Z FOR CHANGE ACTIVIST AND STRATEGIST: You know, I am a private citizen, I`m a young person, but first and foremost, I`m an activist, I`m a fund-raiser. And when I have an opportunity that`s going to help some people in our community, that`s what I mean to do. So by attacking me, by blasting me on Twitter, Matt Gaetz gave me a national top form to talk about why bodily autonomy is important why abortion access is something that people across the country care about.
MAXWELL: So, just a quick follow, Olivia, why is bodily autonomy so important? What message do you hope Americans got from this moment where the attention is on you because of the attack?
JULIANNA: Abortion is health care, point black, period. We are hearing from people across the country who people can`t get access to abortion services, whose hospitals would not give them access, where they are slowly dying in their beds because hospitals are afraid to provide these procedures to them because they`re getting sued prosecuted by state governments. It`s a health procedure, it`s very difficult procedure for people have to come to make.
So by outlawing this procedure, by targeting women across the country Republicans are essentially saying, they do not care about your health. They do not care about your freedom and they do not care about your constitutional rights. This is a president that has been set for decades long before I was born.
And so, for them to go after this, not only are attacking your freedom, but they are also ignoring voters and the opinions of people across the country. An overwhelming amount of people and support access to abortion that`s what we saw last night in Kansas.
MAXWELL: Yeah, I think it shows that the polling was accurate, a majority of Americans support pro-choice.
Olivia, do you think the older generations underestimated the power of Gen Z and affecting change? I think that you get cast like overly sensitive, snowflakes or maybe, you know, angry about climate change. But do you think that`s basically an underestimation of your power potentially?
JULIANNA: I think it`s an extreme underestimation. I know that as long as I`ve been conscious of politics, I`ve heard that notion, young people don`t vote, young people I don`t vote and don`t care about voting. We`ve seen that that`s not true, besotted 2020 in the presidential election when young people turn and record to vote out Donald Trump.
We saw it in Kansas, we saw young people registering to vote. We saw first-time voters. This is showing not only that young people have power at the ballot box but they`re avoid making their voices heard. We`re seeing young organizers political campaigns across the country, young organizers and nonprofits across the country.
And so, I think that this idea that young people are not politically involved, they are not socially justice really involved is one that is blatantly false, and I think it`s meant to demoralize people across the country. But clearly it is not working.
MAXWELL: Yazmin, same question to you. Do you think you are underestimated? And why do you think your generation is so impatient at this moment and you`re just going and ignoring all the analysis in creating the change you want to see?
BRUNO-VALDEZ: Yes, so I definitely do think that -- I completely agree with everything you said. I think we are underestimated, unaccounted for. We are not deemed as actual powerhouses in the ballot box when in fact we are. When -- I personally cannot vote, I`m a DACA recipients, so I understand not being able to understand with American democracy but I do everything and mobilize everyone I know to get out and vote.
Gen-Z millennials, we were raised under the notion that abortion was a right, that is not something that can be stripped away so went Roe v. Wade was overruled, we knew they were coming after us that we had to do something specifically in Kansas. We knew we were going to be the first state to vote after Roe v. Wade and we knew we had to mobilize as many people as possible.
We did not sit there and cry and be scared like the snowflakes do. We set up and fight. We knew we had to do and got it done. I have so many of my friends there were low propensity voters, voters that have never been talked to mobilize to the polls, and whether it was sending them election guides, finding the poll locations anything that I could do to make sure that they were well-informed and excited to vote made me feel like I was right there with them.
MAXWELL: I`ve really enjoyed this conversation. It`s giving me hope and I hope the folks at home are feeling optimistic and the opposite of cynical right now.
[22:15:00]
Yazmin Bruno-Valdez and Olivia Julianna, thank you so much for being here. Both of you. Please stay safe.
Joining us now Lauren Groh-Wargo, the campaign manager for Stacey Abrams` gubernatorial campaign in Georgia.
So, Lauren, are you feeling hopeful? I am after that conversation.
LAUREN GROH-WARGO, CAMPAIGN MANAGER, ABRAMS GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN: Absolutely, and I think that segment was so emblematic of this year where young voters in particular are so fired up and focused and this issue is so crystal cut about our who`s on our side and who`s against our side. Here we have a lot of different examples I`m excited to talk about that.
MAXWELL: Yeah, in the state of Georgia, obviously, Stacey Abrams, a campaign you`re running, running against the current Governor Brian Kemp. Georgia was a surprise for so many folks in 2020 not just because Joe Biden but the special election and this is a matchup that everyone`s paying attention to.
I want to take a look at a new ad that is out today from your campaign targeting Brian Kemp on this exact issue on abortion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s an attack on the women of Georgia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brian Kemp made abortion a crime before.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For many women who didn`t know they are pregnant, and he supports a total ban.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even if I`m raped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A victim of incest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Forced pregnancy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Criminalize women with jail time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Outlaws birth control.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Under Kemp, I could be investigated, and imprisoned for a miscarriage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For a miscarriage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The only way to stop this to the women of Georgia is to stop Brian Kemp.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MAXWELL: You know, Lauren, a lot of people say abortion is health care and it`s often put out there as a talking point. But can you talk about how in the last few weeks a lot of Americans including the ones turn and record numbers down in Georgia understand the life and death stakes when women don`t have access to the full slate of reproductive health care including abortion?
GROH-WARGO: Absolutely. A couple of hours earlier this evening, Zerlina, Stacey convened some women who had suffered pregnancy loss in Georgia, and we`re joined by 500 women in on Zoom to listen in solidarity. Then we got to work in organizing after the conference. But those women share that miscarriage in a pregnancy loss looks like a medical abortion in many cases, and now we have district attorneys on the record in Georgia saying they may be forced and law enforcement is going to have to look at criminalize women for potentially illegal abortions in those women will have to prove that it was a health risk in that instance. That is terrifying.
So the stories that are happening around the country and here in Georgia with the six-week ban. What is so hopeful however to the theme of your show tonight is that Kansas last night was a real life in person electoral example of what we`ve been seeing in our research. Zerlina, I think you`ve mentioned, you and I have been doing this for a couple of years, I`ve been doing this for about 20 years, I have never seen the type of polling qualitative research we`ve both been seeing internally and both in public polls in Georgia.
This six-week ban is an absolute loser politically for Kemp. It is overwhelmingly opposed. The six-week ban in fact is opposed by 25 percent of likely voting Republicans and overwhelmingly opposed by independents and Democrats. I don`t have any illusions that those 25 percent of hard-core Republicans are necessarily going to vote for Stacey Abrams, but they are certainly getting educated about why Brian Kemp is a danger to them and their daughters and their sisters.
Zerlina, the law of the land now is that if you are a rape or incest victim today in Georgia, by the time you even realize you are pregnant, you cannot access abortion care unless you have a police report. American statistics are something like 10 to 15 percent of women file police reports.
So this is an economic, moral abomination of a law passed in the first year of the Kemp administration. This is the same guy, Zerlina, who likes to take credit for not committing treason but his palling around with false electors. Do you hear what happened in past month? He appointed a false elector to a water and soil conservation board. A couple of days ago, we lost a huge music festival in Atlanta Music Midtown because of his gun laws and all the gun things happening.
So there are economic, political and human consequences to this far right, anti-woman, anti-safety, anti-community agenda and we are going to vote him out and all of his friends here in Georgia and across the country in November because women and those who love them are not going to elect their wives, and sisters and children languish in a hospital bed and get sepsis before they get hospital care.
[22:20:10]
And we for damn sure are going to run a lot more ad but most importantly we are organizing. So when we do, Zerlina? After that painful conversation about pregnancy loss, our incredible team of organizers got those women on our organizing tools app and sign him up to go canvas on Saturday. We are building a strong campaign and we hope everybody watching will go to staceyabrams.com and help us get this done.
MAXWELL: I love recruiting volunteers, so fun. I love super volunteers. I love the community that you can create at a field of office.
It`s one of the best parts of politics. It`s one of the undercover parts of politics. I`m so glad to have all of you here to start off tonight.
Lauren Groh-Wargo, thank you so much for being here. Please stay safe.
Coming up, now for some bad news, Republicans who are totally cool with overturning results of elections, they don`t win, had a blockbuster night last night. And in Arizona, they are closer to positions of real power that could be a threat to our votes in 2024. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:25:48]
MAXWELL: We saw a democracy itself on the ballot in five state primaries last night. Some of the results showed that Donald Trump and the big lie are still the greatest domestic threats to American democracy.
In Arizona, two election deniers won their party`s nomination. The third election denier, Arizona`s Republican candidate for governor, Kari Lake, is in the lead as the race remains too close to call.
In Michigan, Republican Congressman Peter Meijer, who voted to impeach Donald Trump after the January 6th insurrection, lost his reelection campaign to a Trump endorsed election deniers. These Trump-backed Republican candidates are a clear and present danger to our democracy. That is what is at stake in the midterm elections just nine weeks and seven days away.
Trump-endorsed election deniers could ascend to the highest positions of power in state governments, and support laws that tear down our very system. Long gone are the days where the biggest threats to the democracy solely came from abroad.
We saw this on Monday, when President Joe Biden announced the killing of al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri, the announcement of the U.S. strike that killed the al-Qaeda leader was a reminder of a time after 9/11, when the biggest looming threat was foreign terrorists, and for attacks against Americans.
As we saw on January the 6th, the Trump mob, made up of fellow Americans, incited by a lie, attacked the United States capitol in an attempt to subvert American democracy, all at the direction of the president, Donald Trump. And the big lie persist because of the people who continued to peddle it.
That is what continues to put these election deniers in positions of power. That`s the danger of all of this, and that`s what it will do. It will finish the job that Donald Trump attempted to do while he was still in office, the job of tearing down our very democracy.
Joining us now is Frank Figliuzzi, who served as FBI assistant director of counterintelligence. He is an MSNBC national security analyst.
And, Frank, we used to focus on foreign terrorism after 9/11. And this is a week where I was reminded of that. But now, it feels like there has been a sea change, where after January the 6th, 1/6, and the committee hearings over the summer, the threat seems like it is coming domestically, versus how it used to come.
What`s your take on it?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI, MSNBC NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yeah, Zerlina, your perceptions are correct. If we were to listen to the head of the FBI, for example, who testified almost a year ago now on Capitol Hill. What did he say? He said the FBI has had to prioritize the very same magnitude, and sense of urgency, the direct domestic terrorism cases that they have, along with the international terrorism cases.
So, we are seeing them on the same plane, and the threat is very real. The threat is coming from inside. That is a sobering thought, Zerlina, when we are talking about our own American citizens as threats. What are we seeing with regard to what happened yesterday in certain GOP primaries across the country?
We are seeing a further legitimizing of this threat, in the form of a party choosing their standard bearers, people who make a deliberate choice to undermine our faith, in our free and fair elections, in order to believe a lie that has been disproven over and over again in courts. That election had been stolen. That`s a deliberate they are making, and it`s a delivery choice that the entire party is making to go with those candidates.
That is a threat in our own backyard, moving quickly to our front yard. And that legitimizes the threat in the minds of people. This is my candidate, this is my party`s candidate, it must be true. It must be okay.
We had somebody in Arizona yesterday, who is now going to be the GOP candidate for the secretary of state, he will control elections if he wins, who actually a self avowed member of Oath Keepers.
[22:29:43]
You know that leadership of Oath Keepers, nine of them, have been charged with seditious conspiracy against the United States government.
This is the guy, he`s member of that organization, has not renounced them. He wants to control elections in the state of Arizona. That is the threat from within.
MAXWELL: Is there a way to marginalize the big lie peddlers in a moment like this? Does it require cooperation from other Republicans? Is there any way to do it simply as an American citizen who cares about democracy?
FIGLIUZZI: So look, we have to call out the truth constantly. You are doing it just by having this segment. It`s being done across many, many outlets.
But most of all, it`s about consequences and accountability, while you are exposing continually people to the truth.
So what do I mean by this? Already, well over 100, perhaps approaching 900 individuals have been held accountable with consequences for their role in the violence of January 6th. We just talked about Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys leadership being charged with, really the second most serious crime the U.S. government can charged you with, seditious conspiracy.
But that justice also has to come at the highest level. We talked about legitimizing this threat in people`s minds. You delegitimize it. You marginalize it when you make people see there is accountability here.
So the DOJ has got to deal with this through severe consequences and accountability at the highest level, to whoever is found criminally responsible. I have to believe that is going to happen because I have to believe that our democracy is going to survive this.
MAXWELL: Well, we all hope as Americans. Frank Figliuzzi, thank you so much for being here and helping us understand all of this. Please stay safe.
Now on to that DOJ investigation. Coming up, new indications that the Department of Justice is ramping up their investigation in the effort to overturn the election. Glenn Kirschner and Joyce Vance will join us next with their analysis.
[22:32:08] ] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO MARK MEADOWS: I saw Mr. Cipollone right before I walked out on to West Exec that morning and Mr. Cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don`t go up to the Capitol, Cassidy. Keep in touch with me. We`re going to get charged with every crime imaginable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MAXWELL: We broke the news last night that the Department of Justice has subpoenaed Trump White House counsel Pat Cipollone. And today we learned it has also subpoenaed his deputy, Pat Philbin.
The "New York Times" is reporting today that this is all coming quote, "when federal prosecutors are sharpening their focus on the conduct of Mr. Trump and not simply the people who were advising him. In recent weeks, investigators have asked witnesses questions about Mr. Trump and his actions including of people who worked in the White House."
Now, if you`ve only been paying half attention to the January 6th hearings -- and I don`t blame you, it`s summertime -- let me just clarify a couple of things before we move forward.
Grand jury subpoenas we`re talking about right now are not subpoenas from the January 6th Committee. We`re talking about the grand jury. The committee that`s been holding the public hearings you may have seen on primetime TV this summer is not the grand jury.
These subpoenas are from the federal prosecutors at Merrick Garland`s Justice Department and the feds have the ability to charge anyone who they find has committed a crime. Yes, that potentially could include the former President Donald Trump.
And here`s what January 6th Committee member Adam Kinzinger had to say about that and the Pat Cipollone subpoena.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): This is probably bad for former President Trump. I mean this is -- if he goes in front of the grand jury it shows that this is more than what did John Eastman do the attorney that basically came up with that crazy scheme to overturn the election. And it probably isn`t very deep interest on what the president did.
We`ll see where this goes. But there`s no doubt that this investigation has developed further along than where we even knew it was or thought it was a few months ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MAXWELL: Joining us now Glenn Kirschner, former federal prosecutor; also Joyce Vance former U.S. attorney and a professor at the University of Alabama Law School. Both are MSNBC legal analysts.
Joyce can you help us understand the significance of subpoenaing the White House counsel in the Justice Department`s criminal investigation? This feels like a huge step in their investigation? How do you see it?
JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: It`s very important Zerlina. What this signifies is that the Justice Department has now moved on to including the former president in their field of interest.
DOJ doesn`t investigate individuals, it doesn`t target individuals, it looks at crime. So what this decision to subpoena the White House counsel and his deputy means is that the former president`s conduct is within the scope of the investigation, because the White House counsel spoke directly to Donald Trump you might be able to elicit testimony from him about Trump`s reaction when he was told and shown evidence that he lost the election or when he was advised that some of his schemes for holding on to power were borderline illegal perhaps even over the edge.
[22:40:01]
VANCE: So this direct testimony that what Trump said and did in response to information that was conveyed to him could be critically important to DOJ`s decisions down the road about whether or not to charge and who to charged in connection with January 6.
MAXWELL: And Glenn, I want to read you a little bit from the "New York Times" piece. It says "It was unclear which grand jury had called Mr. Cipollone to testify as a witness. Two are known to be hearing evidence in testimony. One is looking at the scheme by some of Mr. Trump`s lawyers and advisers to assemble slates of electors who would falsely claim that Mr. Trump was the actual winner of the election. And another focused on the events of January 6. So Pat Cipollone would likely have information that`s relevant for both of those grand juries.
In your view to think this signals that other folks even could be called and subpoenaed in because they have the same type of information that could help investigators fill in the holes of what we know about what happened leading into January 6?
GLENN KIRSCHNER, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. Zerlina, this is not the end of the line for subpoenas. They`re not going to stop with Pat Cipollone. And the reason this is really important and it`s important that you distinguish as you did between a J6 Committee testimonial appearance and a grand jury testimonial appearances because all testimony is not created equal.
We all saw in the public hearings Pat Cipollone invoke executive privilege. You know, he kept looking over his lawyer and his lawyer was kind of giving him one of these signs so he wouldn`t testify about certain things.
Well the J6 Committee, congressional committees don`t really have an effective vehicle to challenge, to go behind those assertions of privilege and try to compel a testimony.
Not so in a federal grand jury. There`s a robust vehicle to test somebody`s assertion of a privilege. You know what we do if a witness asserts a privilege in a grand jury? We package up the information and we go see the chief judge, Beryl Howell in federal district court in D.C. and we litigate the privilege. They don`t have the opportunity to do that at the J6 Committee if somebody asserts a privilege.
And I have to say, nobody knows for sure but when that privilege is litigated in the event Pat Cipollone tries to assert executive privilege in the grand jury, Beryl Howell could very well say no because one it`s not Donald Trump`s privilege to invoke anymore it`s Joe Biden`s, and he seems entirely willing to waive the privilege; and two, we have this little thing called the crime fraud exception.
So there`s kind of built in suspenders -- two reasons to deny an assertion of executive privilege. So now the information is going to start tumbling out in a way it didn`t necessarily before the J6 committee.
MAXWELL: This is getting really interesting. Joyce and Glenn, you`re not going anywhere because we have to talk about Alex Jones`s trial. So we`re going to do that right up next.
[22:43:07]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MAXWELL: The jury in Alex Jones`s defamation trial ended the first day of deliberations just a few hours ago. Jurors will now decide if Alex Jones owes $150 million in damages for the pain he inflicted on the parents of a child killed in the Sandy Hook massacre after years of lying about the shooting.
Donald Trump`s conspiracy peddler pal testified under oath that he did not have any text messages on his phone related to Sandy Hook. But today Alex Jones learned on the witness stand that his very own lawyers accidentally sent the Sandy Hook families` lawyers two years of text messages. Catching him in yet another lie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK BANKSTON, SANDY HOOK FAMILY ATTORNEY: Your attorneys messed up and sent me an entire digital copy of your entire cell phone with every text message you have sent for the past two years. It fell free and clear into my possession, and that`s how I know you lied to me when you said you did not have the text messages about Sandy Hook. Did you know that?
ALEX JONES, INFOWARS: See, I told you the truth, I gave them my phone. This is your Perry Mason moment. I gave them my phone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Jones, in discovery, you are asked, do you have Sandy Hook text messages on your phone? And you said no, correct?
You said that under oath.
JONES: I was mistaken, I was mistaken. You got the messages right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know what perjury is right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MAXWELL: Back with us are Glenn Kirschner and Joyce Vance. So Glenn, the question on everybody`s mind I think is -- is Alex Jones be held accountable for what he has done here?
KIRSCHNER: How could he not, Zerlina. Anyone who profits off the pain of the Sandy Hook families, telling these outrageous lies like apparently Alex Jones has been. It`s really hard to see how he is not going to be held accountable.
[22:49:45]
KIRSCHNER: And frankly, my ears perked up when I heard that opposing counsel has the last two years worth of text messages. Not wanting to mix apples and oranges, I have to wonder if there is anything on there that might have Alex Jones communicating with, I don`t -- Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, Rudy Giuliani, perhaps people in the White House.
You know, I wonder if the phone records genie is now out of the bottle, if that is something that the J6 Committee, and perhaps even federal prosecutors might be interested in.
MAXWELL: That is a fascinating detail. And a thread we will all need to keep an eye on.
Joyce, we saw in the Charlottesville verdict that civil lawsuits do work against these far-right figures, the militia group types. They really just act like they have impunity to just do whatever they want. Do you think that holding them accountable by making them pay, literally, is an effective way in holding them accountable and to prevent other people from doing the same thing?
VANCE: These civil lawsuits have the capacity to be tremendously important. I think really the place that this strategy got underway as when the Southern Poverty Law Center sue the Ku Klux Klan civilly -- and were able to bankrupt the Klan. And that worked in many ways in as compelling of a fashion as criminal prosecutions for lynching did by making it impossible for the Klan to carry on its continued operations.
So this is that same sort of approach towards Infowars, which is just a merchant of hate, a merchant of lies.
You know, you started, Zerlina, by asking if the jury would be able to hold Jones to account here. And my suspicion is that during their deliberations, they will be bemoaning the fact that $150 million is what is being asked for, that they can`t do more. But if they returned that verdict, it will be a very powerful one. It will put him out of business. It will serve as a warning to others who try to traffic in these sorts of lies. And as Glenn intimates, it may have far-reaching consequences as a result of this trial and documents and materials that came to light during it.
MAXWELL: Joyce Vance and Glenn Kirschner, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Please stay safe.
Heather McGhee will join us next in tonight`s LAST WORD.
[22:52:15]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MAXWELL: As president of the national thinktank Demos, our next guest devoted her professional work to developing policy solutions to issues of inequality. To be focused on policy is to be focused on progress. It`s an inherently optimistic pursuit, one that requires leaning into hope over doom and despair.
And it led Heather McGhee to quit her job at Demos to travel around America and meet the Americans who are coming together across racial lines to fight for solutions in their cities and towns. She shares those stories of these everyday people that power American democracy in her brand-new podcast, "The Sum of Us". Heather McGhee joins us now.
HEATHER MCGHEE, HOST, "THE SUM OF US": Thank you, Zerlina --
(CROSSTALK)
MCGHEE: -- to be with you.
MAXWELL: Thank you so much for joining us, it`s so great to see you. So you begin your podcast in Montgomery, Alabama, at the site of a former community swimming pool that was drained of all the water and cemented over in 1959, because the community did not want to racially integrate the pool. And the symbol of the pool is the thread that runs throughout the podcast.
Talk about the people that you met along the way, and tell us some of the stories that resonate with you as you went about making this podcast.
MCGHEE: This podcast is really a sort of a follow on. Another journey to the journey that I took to write the book, "The Sum of Us" where the drained pool stands for not just what happened to swimming pools in America that were publicly funded, but what happened to free college in America that was publicly funded. What happened to good families sustaining wages and good jobs and union jobs. Why we didn`t ever fill in the pool of public goods around health care in the first place in this country.
And the single, unifying answer is racism. And our politics and our policy making that is so subversive that it actually ends up costing all Americans. And the solution, because racism ends up stopping us from having collective action, and doing things together to solve our problems is for people to come together across lines of race.
And so I set out on this podcast to get deeply into the stories of people like the folks that are profiled in the episode that just came out today. A black former homeless veteran and civil rights leader who teams up with a white disgraced Republican congressional aide from the Abramoff scandal. Like you really can`t make this stuff up, but it`s honestly true.
And together, they help set the strategy for the campaign to overturn a Jim Crow law in Florida, that created a lifetime ban on voters with felony convictions.
So there are nine other stories like this across racial solidarity, people saying, you know what, we`ve got to refill the pool and make like work better for all of us.
MAXWELL: We just have one more minute, but how do people overcome their differences? I mean we hear so much that it is, we can`t -- you know, we can`t talk about race, but you figured out how. How have you done that?
MCGHEE: Well, just in a minute, you know, I really just listen to people. People like folks that we are going to hear from next week, Brigitte and Terrence. Bridget is a white woman, white working class, poverty wage, fast food worker. Terrence is a black fast food worker. And they were miles apart physically and in terms of ever thinking that they would ever be on the same side.
[22:59:55]
MCGHEE: And what ended up happening was that they realized that actually by being divided, and by blaming themselves, blaming each other, blaming immigrants for the lack of good jobs, they were actually just playing into the hands of the boss.
And so it was through organizing that they were able to come together, become friends, and ultimately win a massive wage increase in their state as part of the fight for 15.
MAXWELL: I think that`s the theme of the show tonight -- organizing.
Heather McGhee thank you so much for joining us tonight.
That`s tonight`s LAST WORD.
"THE 11TH HOUR WITH STEPHANIE RUHLE" starts now.