Summary
Trump White House Counsel Pat Cipollone has a long holiday weekend ahead of him to decide what he`s going to do on July 6 when he is legally obligated to show up for an under oath deposition with the January 6 Committee. The Texas State Board of Education is now considering a proposal, that the word "slavery" should be changed to "involuntary relocation", for second grade students. That is an attempt to conform public school instruction with a new state law in Texas. Today, 233 years after the first Supreme Court justice took his first oath of office, Ketanji Brown Jackson was sworn in as the 116th Supreme Court justice, making history in more ways than one. People associated with Donald Trump tried to influence Cassidy Hutchinson`s testimony to the January 6 Committee.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: I can`t wait for the Snake Island movie.
ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST, "VELSHI": Yes.
O`DONNELL: It is quite a story from --
VELSHI: From the beginning.
O`DONNELL: -- today, yes.
VELSHI: From that first moment when they told the Russians what they thought they should do. It was very early on, Lawrence, but it gave us insight into what the Russian troops and with the Russian people were going to be like in this war.
You will recall, in the early days, we were told by U.S. intelligence and British intelligence that this thing would be over in a matter of days. The thing that changed it -- now it`s the weapons coming from the West -- by the things that change in the early days on Snake Island, when those Ukrainians told those Russians what they did, was pure gumption. It was pure guts on the part of those soldiers.
O`DONNELL: Yeah, it really was, it really showed us for the first time with the Russians were up against.
VELSHI: Yeah.
O`DONNELL: And why they cannot succeed there.
VELSHI: That`s right.
O`DONNELL: Thanks, Ali.
VELSHI: Have a good show.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
Well, today, 233 years after the first Supreme Court justice took his first oath of office, Ketanji Brown Jackson was sworn in as the 116th Supreme Court justice, making history in more ways than one. She is the first black woman to serve on the Supreme Court. And she has increased the number of women on the Supreme Court to an historic high of four out of the nine justices.
Justice Jackson`s husband, Dr. Patrick Jackson, held the Jackson family bible and the Supreme Courts Harlan Bible. The Harlan Bible belonged to Justice John Marshall Harlan, who was the only member of the Supreme Court to dissent in the case of Plessy versus Ferguson in 1896, which ruled that segregation was constitutional.
Justice Harlan was born into a slave owning family. But that family included a half brother, Robert James Harlan, who was Black and who was born into slavery. He was raised in the Harlan family along with the rest of the Harlan brothers and went on to become a successful businessman.
Justice Jackson took to oaths -- a constitutional oath, administered by Chief Justice John Roberts. And a judicial oath administered by Justice Stephen Breyer, who is your time in from the court created the opening for justice Jackson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS, U.S. SUPREME COURT: Are you prepared to take the oath?
INCOMING JUSTICE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, U.S. SUPREME COURT: I am.
ROBERTS: Please raise your right hand and repeat after me -- I, Ketanji Brown Jackson, do solemnly swear --
JACKSON: I, Ketanji Brown Jackson, do solemnly swear --
ROBERTS: That I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.
JACKSON: That I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
ROBERTS: That I will bear true faith and illusions allegiance to the same.
JACKSON: That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same.
ROBERTS: That I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion.
JACKSON: That I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion.
ROBERTS: And that I will and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I`m about to enter.
JACKSON: And that I will and faithfully discharge duties of the office of which I am about to enter.
ROBERTS: So help me God.
JACKSON: So help me God.
ROBERTS: Thank you very much, and I will turn things over to Justice Breyer.
JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER, U.S. SUPREME COURT: The judicial oath, will you raise your right hand, please? Thank you.
I, Ketanji Brown Jackson --
JACKSON: I, Ketanji Brown Jackson --
BREYER: Do you solemnly swear --
JACKSON: Do you solemnly swear --
BREYER: That I will administer justice --
JACKSON: That I will administer justice
BREYER: Without respect to persons --
JACKSON: Without respect to persons --
BREYER: And do equal right (AUDIO GAP) to the poor and to the rich --
JACKSON: -- to the poor and to the rich.
BREYER: And that I will faithfully and impartially --
JACKSON: And that I will faithfully and impartially --
BREYER: Discharge and perform --
JACKSON: Discharge and perform --
BREYER: All of the duties --
JACKSON: All of the duties --
BREYER: Incumbent upon me --
JACKSON: Incumbent upon me --
BREYER: As an associate justice at the Supreme Court of the United States.
JACKSON: As an associate justice of the Supreme Court of the United States.
BREYER: Under the Constitution --
JACKSON: Under the Constitution --
BREYER: And laws of the United States --
JACKSON: And laws of the United States --
[22:05:01]
BREYER: So help me God.
JACKSON: So help me God.
ROBERTS: And now, I ask all members of the court and please welcome Justice Jackson to the court and to our common calling.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: That is all Justice Jackson had to say publicly today. But she issued a written statement, saying: With a full heart, I accept the solemn responsibility of supporting a defending the Constitution of the United States and administering justice without fear or favor, so help me God. I am truly grateful to be part of the promise of our great nation.
I extend my sincerest thanks to all my new colleagues for their warm and gracious welcome. I am also especially grateful for the time and attention given to me by the chief justice and by Justice Breyer. Justice Breyer has been a personal friend and mentor of mine for the past two decades, in addition to being part of today`s official act. In the wake of his exemplary service, with the support of my family and friends, and every mindful of the duty to promote the rule of law, I am well-positioned to serve the American people.
Today`s swearing in ceremony happened two years and four months after Joe Biden said this in a presidential candidates` debate in South Carolina.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, THEN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`m looking forward to making sure there is a black woman on the Supreme Court, to make sure that in fact get --
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Our first guest tonight, Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn of South Carolina and his daughter, Dr. Jennifer Clyburn Reed, were at that debate that night. And during a commercial break, Congressman Clyburn once again urged Joe Biden to promise that he would nominate a black woman to the Supreme Court.
On this program, in January, Congressman Clyburn told us, he gives the credit for the idea to his daughters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JIM CLYBURN (D-SC): I have three daughters, as you know, and one of those daughters was at that debate with me. I am telling you, I see it, with Joe Biden, would I had been hearing from them and their friends. I talk with them a lot. They are telling me, that there was a (INAUDIBLE) out there, and it had to do with the feeling that African-American women were not given there just do from the Democratic Party. And one of the things they brought up to me was the Supreme Court.
Just think about it, the Supreme Court for women have been on the Supreme Court. Three current, one has retired. None of them black. No Black seriously discussed for the Supreme Court. A Latina, Jewish women, Catholic women, non-Catholic, but no Black.
And so, when I sat down with Joe Biden and I told him that I was going to endorse (INAUDIBLE) but I thought that he could do everybody apart of and himself a lot of good if he could go public and says, that if given the opportunity, he would nominate an African-American woman to the Supreme Court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And leading off our discussion tonight, Democratic Congressman James Clyburn of South Carolina. He is the House majority whip and his daughter, federal co-chair of the Southeast Crescent Regional Commission, Dr. Jennifer Clyburn Reed.
Thank you both very much for joining us tonight.
Dr. Reed, let me begin with you tonight and I`m wondering how your mother would feel tonight if she got to watch Ketanji Brown Jackson take the oath of office today.
DR. JENNIFER REED, SOUTHEAST CRESCENT REGION COMMISSION: Thank you for having me. She would be ecstatic. She would be enjoying this moment with the three of us, with my daughter, and her other grand daughter, my niece. And we would be admiring the history that had been. I just -- when I watched -- I watched it earlier today and I watch it again now, and I`m still feeling it.
O`DONNELL: Let me ask you about that night at the debate with your father.
[22:10:00]
Now, I have never known of anybody using a commercial break in a debate to try to urge a candidate -- someone who is not on the campaign staff, anyway, to urge the candidate to take a position.
Did you know your father was going to run their backstage and do that?
REED: Absolutely not. We came for one reason, and one reason only, and that was to watch the debate, and see how things were going and how questions were being answered. And he just disappeared.
O`DONNELL: And when he came back, did he tell you what the mission was?
REED: He did not. He did not. Soon after that, now President Biden, said what he needed to say, made a promise onstage. And we were all shocked yet delighted.
O`DONNELL: And, Congressman Clyburn, you had that presence of mind to decide this is the moment, you have been lobbying Joe Biden on this before that. But you saw that moment. And you believed that this would not be just good for his campaign but that this was something the country had to hear.
What did it feel like for you when you are back in the chair and he actually said it?
CLYBURN: Well, thank you very much for having me as well.
You know, Lawrence, that night, it`s just surreal to me. I was very emotional for the last -- previous 48 hours and we were sitting and waiting. And in the first half of that debate, it didn`t come. So I got up and excused myself.
I was sitting with Bennie Thompson that everyone has now gotten to know. And he asked if I was going to the restroom, and I said yes. I didn`t tell him what I was going to do.
And I went backstage and I talked to Joe Biden and I urged him to please, don`t leave the stage tonight without making this commitment. I thought it was important for the American people. It was important for his candidacy, and today, as a culmination of that.
I think Joe Biden does well, as you know, there is about a dozen African- American women under serious consideration -- it got down to three. And my thought, was one of the other two.
But this is a good choice, a great choice. And I think that this country is going to be very, very proud of her.
O`DONNELL: We can never forget that what you did endorse Joe Biden, you invoked your late wife. It was as if she was present that day, the way you brought her into that room and into that endorsement. And so, I was thinking of what you two would be saying to each other today if Emily we`re still with us.
CLYBURN: Well, you know, she was with us that night. The day of the endorsement, the next morning, it is really when it all came full circle, because she had said to me, six months earlier -- she passed away for months before the endorsement. But she said to me, that if we really wanted to win, we needed to nominate Joe Biden.
And there I was, talking with my daughter`s, telling them that we had to keep this promise, and ask them that, what they thought I needed to do, what they thought Joe Biden needed to do. And this was one of those things that came up in that discussion.
And so I was keeping a promise and I was really on a mission. And I think that if she were here tonight, she would not -- she would rejoice but not the way we do. Emily never did. She always (INAUDIBLE) for herself, to enjoy the moment.
She did not participate a whole lot in frivolity -- she was a fun loving person but she was a little less emotional about these things and a lot of people are.
O`DONNELL: Dr. Reed, America is lucky that Jim Clyburn has the doctors he does. As his senior advisers and lifetime advisers, has he always been open to this kind of advice?
REED: Yes, he has. We are a family.
[22:15:03]
We sit around the table. We talk a lot about issues, about our troubles, about our triumphs. So, we have conversations about just about everything.
And with this nomination, with the nomination, we knew that representation mattered a lot. And the representation just wasn`t there, so it was an argument that the congressman had no answer for because with representation comes a lot of buy in, you know, from every constituent. And we needed that.
O`DONNELL: Congressman Clyburn, Ketanji Brown Jackson has as difficult a job as a Supreme Court justice as anyone has ever had. She enters on the minority side of the court, just three of them on that side. It is three with six who can dominate all of the outcomes at the Supreme Court.
What is your hope for Justice Jackson as she enters the court?
CLYBURN: I am very hopeful that she will stay true to her principles. I have read a lot about her, her background, her family. In fact, her father, is a fraternity brother of mine, I did not know that before this whole effort.
And I know that the principles that we live by -- friendship, scholarship, perseverance, (INAUDIBLE). If those things have been imparted to her, I would hope that she would stay true to her principles and maintain the kind of perseverance that her parents went through to get her to where she is today, and be able to carry that around the table, when they are discussing issues. Carry on with him, that`s the best that she can do.
She can`t make anybody do anything. But I do believe that every single human being, at least has an open mind, can be persuaded, if you carry a good enough argument. She is well-equipped to do it. I hope she maintains the willingness to do it as well.
O`DONNELL: When she was confirmed by the Senate, we were lucky enough that night to have all of her Harvard college roommates and law school roommates join us on this program. It was a remarkable discussion.
Let`s look into Nina Simmons, one of Justice Jackson`s roommates and what she had to say about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NINA SIMMONS, FRIEND OF JUSTICE JACKSON: It`s so important. My grandson, my daughters, that they see this, that they saw this, during my lifetime, they are lifetime. Who knew?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Dr. Reed, you know, you know it`s possible, what was your reaction to that?
REED: It was amazing. I thought about my own daughter, entering her own fourth year of medical school. Anything is possible. And justice Jackson -- let`s say that again -- Justice Jackson is a representation of what is possible for all Americans and -- it has been said, she is faced with challenges, yes. But she is also faced with a wealth of opportunities.
And I know that she will grasp this moment and handle her business.
O`DONNELL: Dr. Jennifer Clyburn Reed, thank you for giving a father this idea.
Congressman James Clyburn, thank you for having your daughter joined with us tonight.
Thank you both very much. Let`s do this again, let`s bring the rest of the girls next time.
CLYBURN: I look forward to that! Thank you very much.
O`DONNELL: Thank you very much.
And coming up, the breaking news of the night is that people around Donald Trump tried to influence Cassidy Hutchinson`s testimony to the January 6 committee.
Paul Butler and Jill Wine-Banks will join us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:24:08]
O`DONNELL: The breaking news of the night is a report that people associated with Donald Trump tried to influence Cassidy Hutchinson`s testimony to the January 6 Committee.
"The New York Times" reports tonight that Ms. Hutchinson has told the January 6th committee that she was among the witnesses who had been contacted by people around Mr. Trump, suggesting they would be better off if they remain loyal to the former president.
At Tuesday`s hearing, Congresswoman Liz Cheney showed examples of interference with witnesses that, according to "The New York Times", could be examples of Trump allies trying to influence Cassidy Hutchinson`s testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): First, here`s how one witness described phone calls from people interested in that witnesses testimony. Quote: What they said to me is, as long as I continue to be a team player, they know I`m on the right team, I`m doing the right thing, I`m protecting who I need to protect, you know I`ll continue to stay in good graces in Trump world.
[22:25:14]
And they have reminded me a couple of times that Trump does read transcripts and just keep that in mind as I proceed through my interviews with the committee.
Here is another sample, in a different context. This is a call received by one of our witnesses -- quote: A person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow. He wants me to let you know he`s thinking about you. He knows you are loyal, and you are going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition.
I think most Americans know that attempting to influence witnesses to testify untruthfully presents very serious concerns.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Trump White House counsel, Pat Cipollone, has a long holiday weekend ahead of him to decide what he is going to do on July 6th, when he is legally obligated to show up for an under oath deposition with the January 6th Committee, after the committee served him with the subpoena yesterday, NBC`s Ali Vitali is support reporting that the Cipollone deposition might not be recorded on video, like many other depositions have been.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI VITALI, NBC NEWS CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: They mentioned this in the subpoena, that they talk to him behind closed doors in April. The reason they want him there again, is they have more questions. He`s probably, if he decides to Cooperate is going to testify again behind closed doors. Our sources tell us that that would just be a transcribed deposition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Paul Butler, professor of law at Georgetown University and former federal prosecutor. Also joining us, Jill Wine-Banks, who served as an assistant Watergate prosecutor. They are both MSNBC contributors.
And, Paul, first, your reaction to `The New York Times" reporting -- confirming what I think was a lot of people suspicions the other day, that, indeed, Cassidy Hutchinson is one of the people who has received these ominous, possibly threatening sounding communications.
PAUL BUTLER, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: You know, Lawrence, prosecutors routinely ask witnesses, as anyone other than your lawyer reached out to you about your testimony. What Congresswoman Cheney describes very mafia-like. The president is closely watching you, Trump reads transcripts.
The committee knows who these thugs are. If they were down enough to put their veiled threats in texts or emails, the committee has that evidence and may have already forwarded to the Justice Department for possible criminal prosecution.
Another tactic that Trump uses is to cajole and flatter people who can incriminate him. So, reportedly, he promises peoples jobs and campaign contributions. But, Lawrence, it just as much of a crime to say that you will reward someone for their false testimony as to say will punish them for their testimony.
O`DONNELL: And, Jill Wine-Banks, we now see, I think, a couple of reasons, why this hearing was rushed, why this was suddenly scheduled. One, when they discover this kind of interference with witnesses, they wanted to go public with it as a way of telling all the other potential witnesses out there who are watching this, we know that they are doing this, and to try to scare off those people from continuing to try to interfere with witnesses.
And then there`s the Cipollone subpoena, which happens the day after the hearing. It seemed like they wanted the Cipollone testimony, all of that testimony about him, and what he said, on the record, so that the subpoena would be so easily, publicly justifiable when they issued the next day.
JILL WINE-BANKS, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: I think you are exactly correct on everything you have said. There is a third way that witnesses can be intimidated. And that`s by paying for their lawyers.
So, let`s not forget that Cassidy Hutchinson changed lawyers just before she testified. And now has a more independent lawyer.
So, if you are the one who is being investigated, and you pay for a witness`s lawyer, that lawyer may not be in conformity with his responsibilities under the ethics code for lawyers, and may not be representing your best interests.
So, I think you also have the fact that once she testifies, the threat kind of goes away. There is no point in threatening her anymore. It`s already done. It`s on record.
So, I think it does all fit together as to why this was all of a sudden, had to be done right away.
[22:29:49]
And it did justify calling Cipollone, who I think has a real obligation to come forward, although I think he may have some problems in terms of having violated some of the rules of ethics under the Code of Conduct for lawyers. He may even be responsible for some criminal activity if he didn`t report crimes that he knew were not only happening then but that are still happening.
The client is not -- Donald Trump, his client was the people and the White House, it was the presidency. And he was obligated to take that as his primary target. So, if he was concealing anything that Donald Trump was doing, that could be assisting him in a crime or it could just be a violation of his responsibilities under the Code of Conduct.
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Paul, the subpoena requires Pat Cipollone to show up next Wednesday, January 6th. But when he is asked questions, he has options that include the Fifth Amendment. He absolutely can invoke that.
He, according to Cassidy Hutchinson, said we will be charged with every crime imaginable -- he said we when he said that. So, obviously he is suggesting criminal liability for himself.
But then there is also this claim that will, I`m sure, will be played with about executive privilege, which is, of course, legally preposterous, because the Trump presidency doesn`t exist anymore. And most of this communication that we are hearing about involves many other people besides the president.
And then there`s also one possible credible exception, which is a certain kind of privileged communication. He could, for example, have highly classified communication, that could have occurred, that they might need to allow him not to answer questions about.
PAUL BUTLER, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: So Lawrence, there are two theories floating around D.C. about Cipollone and whether he will testify. One is that he wants to come clean and he was just waiting for the House to subpoena him to give him a kind of cover for Trump loyalists, maybe partly in the context of these threats that we`ve been hearing some other witnesses have received.
I think if Cipollone really wanted to come clean, he would`ve done that long ago. Real patriots don`t need a subpoena from Congress to tell the truth. I think he`s going to continue to press these bogus claims. As Jill said, he has no attorney-client privilege because Trump wasn`t his client. We, the American people and the office of the White House was his client.
He does however have a more credible executive privilege claim than somebody like Steve Bannon who wasn`t even working in the White House on January 6th. So Lawrence, I think that what Cipollone is likely to do, is the Trump thing of running out the clock.
All he`s got to do is litigate until the midterm elections, and at that point the House panel is likely to either go away or be defanged by the Republicans if they take over the House.
O`DONNELL: Jill, of course, you know, the model for this John Dean, the White House counsel to President Nixon but what Pat Cipollone knows and whatever Republican lawyer in Washington knows is that John Dean had no career left in Republican politics and in Republican circles after he testified against President Nixon.
WINE-BANKS: That is true, he also was disbarred because he was -- and you know, we talked about Cassidy Hutchinson. She is, in a way, so far to John Dean. ?But she wasn`t a coconspirator. John Dean was. He was guilty of the cover-up. He was a full participant in it.
And she wasn`t, so she`s an even more credible witness. And yes, it`s true, he lost his law license, and of course, he was finished in politics as a result of everything he did. But he did the right thing, and he feels good about it. He has the moral high ground in this.
And Pat Cipollone needs to do the same thing. I know John has been calling for Pat to do this on Twitter, and I don`t know whether Pat sees John Dean`s tweets, but Pat if you are listening, John Dean thinks that you ought to do to this. So do I, so do most Americans.
It is the right thing to do. I agree with everything that Paul said about the likelihood of whether he will or won`t, whether he will try to use some kind of privileges. But I differ in one respect, which is executive privilege is gone. Once you are involved in crime and fraud, that is number one.
And aside from the fact you also mentioned, Lawrence, that when there are other witnesses, you can`t have privilege, because these weren`t all people who were working for the government.
[22:34:57]
WINE-BANKS: So I don`t think there`s executive privilege. There`s definitely not attorney-client privilege. And also of course, President Biden has waived executive privilege. So there`s just no credible way, other than the Fifth Amendment if he`s feels he`s committed a crime, he can claim the Fifth Amendment. That`s legitimate, people do that.
O`DONNELL: Jill Wine-Banks, Paul Butler -- thank you both very much for joining our discussion tonight. Thank you.
WINE-BANKS: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: And coming up, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson took her seat in the United States Supreme Court, after the court for the first time in history revoked a constitutional right.
Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Isabel Wilkerson joins us next.
[22:35:41]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: As the Fourth of July approaches, we prepare to celebrate the day in 1776 when this country declared independence from England with these words. "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
41 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence owned people -- owned people, as they signed their name to a document declaring all men are created equal. They owned slaves.
The Texas State Board of Education is now considering a proposal, that the word "slavery" should be changed to "involuntary relocation", for second grade students.
That is an attempt to conform public school instruction with a new state law in Texas, which says slavery and racism must be taught as deviations from, betrayals of, or failures to live up to the authentic founding principles of the United States, which include liberty and equality.
Joining our discussion now is Isabel Wilkerson, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and author of the "New York Times" bestseller "Caste: the Origins of our Discontents`, and her other "New York Times" bestseller, "The Warmth of Other Sons: the Epic Story of America`s Great Migration. We`ve discussed both books on this program.
Isabel, thank you very much for joining us tonight as the Fourth of July approaches to see this country now, in education in Texas or Florida and other states, trying to deny what has happened in the years both before July 4th, 1776 and since.
It`s just an extraordinary attempt, here, to rewrite what we have been.
ISABEL WILKERSON, AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST: Yes, and this particular Fourth of July is a very significant one, because this is the year when the United States will finally have been a free and independent nation, for as long as slavery lasted on the soil. It`s humbling, and it is really staggering to think about the fact that we are alive at this inflection point at this moment, where the United States, we think of it as, you know, 1776 is a long time ago. We think about countries being here for a very long time.
And this is a sobering reminder of exactly how long slavery lasted, it lasted for 246 years from 1619 until 1865, with the 13th Amendment the finally ended legal slavery.
And then the United States, it`s 246 years, and the United States turns 246 on Monday.
O`DONNELL: And here we are, trying to, in some instances, get rid of the word "slavery".
WILKERSON: There is essentially a resistance to the idea of our very history. I mean in some other ways, I think about the majority of us have not had a chance to know our country`s true and full history, at a moment where we need to know our history all the more. There is this push back against it. And yet, we cannot avoid this history because we are living with it.
I often say that our country is like a patient with a (INAUDIBLE) condition like heart disease. And, if a patient has heart disease and might have a heart attack, you might be alarms, you might be moved to action, but you would not be surprised if a patient with heart disease without intervention or treatment had a heart attack.
And so in some ways, we are seeing this chasm. A chasm that is perhaps greater than at any other time since the Civil War, which led to the end of slavery, which we are now reminded lasted for 246 years for as not long now as the country has been a free and independent nation.
[22:44:44]
O`DONNELL: And in that declaration of independence, they wrote "all men are created equal". And they really meant men only and they meant, of course, white men only. And it`s only since 1965 that you could possibly argue that we have actually tried to apply that to everyone in this country.
Some would argue that we still aren`t applying it, because we never passed the equal rights amendment for women, never ratified it fully.
And so the age of this country, as a place where it allowed full participation of the population is -- you know, it is less than a century.
WILKERSON I think we need to remind ourselves that the vast majority of people of African descent, who ever lived on the soil did not live with the freedoms that we imagine, the freedoms that we connect to what it means to be an American citizen, did not get the chance to live out their full and true gifts and talents to the world and that this idea of African Americans as one group being incorporated into the mainstream of American life is very, very new, again going only back to 1965 -- `64, `65 and `68 with those civil rights laws.
And that this is very new. It`s just within the lifespan of many, many, many people alive today. So, the idea of truly encompassing all of the people in this land into what it means to be American, the American (INAUDIBLE), is still very new. And of course, women were excluded as well.
So really, the vast majority of people who are in the country now would not have been included in the ideal and the creed (ph) than what we think of as what it means to be American.
And this is a time where we are called upon to re-examine what it means to be American to examine who is (INAUDIBLE) that me and the ideals that we described.
O`DONNELL: And needless to say, the first Supreme Court justices could never have imagined that there would someday be a black woman as a Supreme Court justice.
I want to get your reaction to that on the other side of a commercial break that we have to squeeze in right here.
Isabel Wilkerson is going to stay with us. We`ll be right back.
]22:47:08]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, SUPRMEME COURT JUSTICE: It has taken 232 years and 115 prior appointments for a black woman to be selected to serve on the Supreme Court of the United States.
But we`ve made it. We`ve made it, all of us, all of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And we are back with Isabel Wilkerson.
Today, when Justice Jackson was sworn in, the only words she spoke with the words of the oath. And so that`s why we reached back to April for those comments. What was your feeling about Justice Jackson taking the oath of office today.
WILKERSON: Obviously, it`s such a historic day. And she said, 232 years, 115 previous justices, none of which looked like her. I am thinking about those notorious cases such as Dred Scott -- the Dred Scott ruling; and also the Plessy versus Ferguson. These are rulings that were agreed upon, that were decided, specifically to hold people from the group that she descents (ph).
Slaves, people hold them at a fixed price, hold them in a lowliest caste, and those rulings were designed to keep today from happening, interestingly enough. And so she`s risen to this moment, the descendant of descended upon slave people.
She`s risen to this moment in a way that allows us to see what the potential of our country actually can be. And I think about how, you know, I think about the reality of the court that she is joining. And how she will be inheriting the same restrictions that her predecessor Justice Breyer was dealing with and maneuvering and managing somehow.
In other words, her role is going to be one of being in the minority. And thus she has the potential to be the person who can inspire, the person who can use moral suasion. The moral who can use intellect to prevent and to encourage. And just a symbol to them of her presence can put her in the position of being the conscience of the court.
I think she is the one who can hold others accountable. She`s the one who can use her obvious brilliance and grace and intellect to inspire and to be there and to advocate for people who have not had a voice, have not been recognized, and not been able to participate at the highest level about the decisions of our country.
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WILKERSON: I also think about how she ascends to this court at this precise moment, that the United States is crossing this historic turning point of being essentially only now, only as of Monday, the United States will have been a free and independent nation for as long as slavery lasts upon the soil.
And to have her ascending, the descendant of enslaved people, rising to this level at the highest court of the land, I think that in some ways, that it is all also justice.
O`DONNELL: Isabel Wilkerson, thank you very much for joining us once again, we really appreciate it.
WILKERSON: Thank you for having me.
O`DONNELL: Thank you very much.
Tonight`s LAST WORD is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: On the day Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson was confirmed by the Senate to the Supreme Court back in April, we were joined by her Harvard college roommates who created an enduring sisterhood in college. Lisa Fairfax, Antoinette Coakley and Nina Simmons, along with Ketanji Brown Jackson as a roommate group.
]22:59:59]
O`DONNELL: That sisterhood was back in Washington again today at the Supreme Court as Judge Jackson officially became Justice Jackson.
And they shared some photos with us including one of Justice Jackson`s official picture, which already hangs on the wall inside the Supreme Court.
To see our full interview with the Ketanji Brown Jackson roommate sisterhood, the Harvard roommate sisterhood, go to the LAST WORD on Twitter, find a link to the video there.
That is tonight`s LAST WORD.
"THE 11TH HOUR WITH STEPHANIE RUHLE" starts now.