Summary
Russia President Vladimir Putin orders troops to Eastern Ukraine after formally recognizing breakaway regions. The U.N. Security Council holds emergency Ukraine meeting. A ruling by a federal judge could bankrupt Donald Trump at the same time that prosecutors in the New York and Georgia are conducting criminal investigations of Donald Trump. The United Nations emergency Security Council meeting has just ended. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Linda Thomas-Greenfield spoke with reporters after the Security Council meeting. President Biden has interviewed potential Supreme Court candidates. We can report that the interviews started in recent days.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Yes, Ali. We`re going to continue the breaking news coverage with the situation in the United States tonight.
But there are other things happening today. We will be covering the latest developments in the life of defendant Trump. And there are some important ones. And more about what President Biden is working on tonight in addition to Ukraine, involving his Supreme Court nomination. That big choice is coming up. We`re going to have all that.
ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST: I`m glad you`re doing that, because we had hoped to have had that conversation. I`ll be tuned in for that.
O`DONNELL: No. Listen, Ali, your full hour on Ukraine was very important coverage. I was listening to every word of it. I`m very glad that I have that as a basis for where we depart from that.
VELSHI: Thank you, my friend. You have a great show.
O`DONNELL: Thank you, Ali.
Well, tonight, the president of Ukraine told the people of Ukraine, we are on our own land. We are not afraid of anything or anybody.
Ukraine then requested an emergency meeting that the United States Security Council tonight, Ukraine requested a Security Council meeting actor let him or Putin said Russian troops will conduct so-called peacekeeping exercise in the Donbas region of Ukraine, which Putin today formally recognized as independent.
Here is the United States ambassador, Linda Thomas-Greenfield at the Security Council meeting tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMB. LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: Putin wants the world to travel back in time, to a time before the United Nations, to a time when empires ruled the world.
But hat the rest of the world has moved forward. It is not 1919. It is 2022.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Vladimir Putin signed a declaration today recognizing the Donetsk People`s Republic and the Luhansk People`s Republic as they`re called now by Vladimir Putin anyway, that recognized them as independent, when in fact they`re part of eastern Ukraine, but have been revolting against the government of Ukraine since Russia started supporting that revolved in 2014.
In a rambling statement to the Russian people today, which was televised around the world, Vladimir Putin said: Let me emphasize once again that Ukraine for us is not just a neighboring country. It is an integral part of our own history, culture, spiritual`s face.
Over 190,000 Russian troops massed at the 1,200-mile border with Ukraine, Vladimir Putin said if he does order those troops to invade Ukraine, quote, the complete responsibility for the possibility of a continuation of bloodshed will be fully and wholly on the conscience of the regime ruling the territory of Ukraine.
At the United Nations tonight, Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS-GREENFIELD: President Biden issued an executive order today, that will prohibit new investment, trade and financing in the so-called DPR and LPR regions. Tomorrow, the United States will take further measures to hold Russia accountable for this clear violation of international law, and Ukraine`s sovereignty and territorial integrity.
But we and our partners have been clear that there will be swift and severe response with Russia to further invade Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The White House statement said: This executive order is distinct from the swift and severe economic measures we are prepared to issue with allies and partners in response to a further Russian invasion of Ukraine. We are continuing to closely consult with Ukraine and with allies and partners on next steps and urge Russia to immediately de-escalate.
The president of Ukraine spoke with President Biden by phone tonight. President Biden also spoke with French President Emmanuel Macron, and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz.
In his speech with people of Ukraine tonight, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said, we`re calm. We`re grown-ups. We`ve been ready for this for a long time. There is no reason for your sleepless night.
What will happen next? We want peace. We are dedicated to diplomatic means of solving this issue. We`re not reacting to any provocations. Our borders are secured.
As soon as we see escalation, we will let you know.
[22:05:02]
Leading off our discussion tonight, David Rothkopf, foreign affairs analyst and opinion columnist for "USA Today" and "The Daily Beast". He`s the host of "The Deep State Radio" podcast.
David Faris is with us. He`s a social professor of political science at Roosevelt University and contributing writer to "The Week".
And Eugene Robinson, associate editor and Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist for "The Washington Post". He`s an MSNBC political analyst.
And, Eugene, you`ve seen many emergency meetings of the United States Security Council, but here we are again tonight. And the issue once again is the behavior of Russia and this time, has an oppressive force over Ukraine.
EUGENE ROBINSON, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah. And let`s be clear what just happened, Russia once again invaded a neighboring sovereign nation, Ukraine. They did it in 2014 where they seized Crimea, which they`ve annexed, and now they have seized this eastern Donbas region, or part of it.
I don`t think this is over. I don`t think you massed -- the bulk of the Russian army on three sides of Ukraine, just to take this very small corner of Ukraine. So, I`m afraid that we will see more of the same in the coming days and weeks.
O`DONNELL: David Rothkopf, I want to give you an open microphone to react to the day`s events.
DAVID ROTHKOPF, FOREIGN AFFAIRS ANALYST: I think they`re extremely serious. Putin`s speech was more angry and more unhinged, frankly, and people expected. He not only decried the history that took place during the post-Soviet era, he decried the history that took place during the Soviet era. He said Russia should sort of revert back to the view empire that it had during the czarist period over 100 years ago.
He also said he does not care about sanctions. He does not see any reason for further negotiations. He posed a threat, not just to Ukraine, but to anything that was part of the Soviet Union, anything that was part of Russia. And so those states, the Baltic states, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, et cetera, all must look at this and say, this is deeply threatening. I suspect all of them look at it and say we are glad we are part of NATO.
Now, the challenge for the administration is going to be, how do you respond to this in a way that actually gets Putin to step back? Because we can`t concede what he has seized today with a piece of paper, much as we did concede Crimea or Georgia in 2008. That`s going to require collective effort of the United States and all of the E.U., all of our allies will have to work together on that. I`m looking forward to much tougher sanctions from them tomorrow.
O`DONNELL: Professor Faris, does Vladimir Putin understand the threshold that he is on? I mean, he must understand that Russia does not exactly have a stellar record of successful invasions of countries that don`t want Russian troops there?
DAVID FARIS, POLITICAL SCIENCE ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, ROOSEVELT UNIVERSITY: No, I think Putin knows exactly what he`s doing, but I still think that he is making an enormous strategic mistake, here. If this is about NATO extension into Ukraine, I think that this could end up having the precise opposite effect. This could spur new discussions in Finland, and Sweden about joining NATO. This could spur increased defense spending in Europe. It could spur a movement away from dependence on Russian natural gas in Europe.
In other words, the ultimate outcome here could be a worsening of Russia`s strategic footing. That`s because war is costly and it`s a failure to resolve differences by other means. And I think that it`s incumbent on the U.S. and its allies to make Russia feel as much pain as this possible here without getting into a shooting war, because again, I agree with David, that the speech today was completely insane. It suggests that he used the settlement at the end of the Cold War where all the constituent republicans kind of walked away with their borders intact. He regards that as legitimate and he intends to continue this campaign of adventurism (ph) on his borders indefinitely, until someone draws the line on the sand or someone stops him.
So, I think he thinks he could get away with this and he probably has reason to believe that given the recent history, but I think things are different now. I think there`s a lot more attempts in on Ukraine and there was, and a lot more interest among the U.S. and its allies and putting a stop to this, finally.
[22:10:03]
If nothing else, then really making Russia feel an enormous amount of economic pain, particularly Russian elites.
O`DONNELL: Eugene Robertson, Vladimir Putin`s speech was not targeted to us. It was targeted to the Russian people. He knows we have access to other information, but he was trying to make sure that the Russian people don`t, and with the Russian people know about this is what Vladimir Putin tells them and what he tells them today. And so to the extent that it was a desperate case, it was a desperate, contorted case that he was making two Russian people, who as of today, he was acting as if they may not be convinced that Russia has to do this.
ROBINSON: Indeed, they may not be convinced that Russia needs to do this, because if Ukraine, if Ukrainians are the brothers -- Russia`s brothers and sisters, and they are the same people as Putin keeps saying, then why are you attacking them? Why would you attack our brothers and sisters rather than sit down and talk with them and work out arrangements whereby their rights are fully protected?
So he has a selling project to do with the Russian people, I suspect, but as you pointed out, he lets them hear what he wants them to hear. He has successfully done away with most independent media in Russia, and as we know, unfortunately, propaganda does work, say it out loud and say it again. So you keep repeating the message and sadly often, it`s effective and successful. But we will see if this drags on, if the sanctions really fight. And it might be a different story.
O`DONNELL: David Rothkopf, did Vladimir Putin make the case to the Russian people, or enough of the Russian people today?
ROTHKOPF: My guess is he made the case to estimate for the day, he doesn`t need anybody else`s permission. I think what happens in the long term however, it`s going to be how they feel, much as Americans do, about kitchen table issues. Russia`s economy is in bad shape. If we institute the sanctions that have been talked about, sanctions that hit his friends, the oligarchs, hard, they make it hard for Russian industry to compete, because we keep them from getting chips and essential technologies that they need. If that makes the Russian economy falter more, makes it harder for them to sell perhaps their energy at some point, well he`s already got a democracy movement there. That`s a problem for him.
He`s had leading generals speak out against going into Ukraine even before he has gone in, which is very unusual. Of course, we need to remember that when Russia went into Afghanistan and that turned bad, that was one of the things that contributed to the downfall of the Soviet Union. I think Putin is aware of this but he seems to be proceeding anyway, and if Ukraine mounts a resistance. If Russia goes in and this last a long time, and it`s costly for them, it could turn difficult for him on the domestic front in a way that his past incursions have not.
O`DONNELL: The Russian ambassador is speaking at the United Nations now. If the control room can pick up with the ambassador is saying, let`s see if we can listen in.
(SPEAKING RUSSIAN)
O`DONNELL: There is no translation available right now. No life translation.
Professor Faris, to the point we were just making, this case is now being made to the Russian people to the extent that this is being covered, anyway. At the United Nations, the ambassador knows that he has to speak to the Russian people while he is speaking at the United Nations, and I suppose and Russian media, they can simply exclude everything else that is set tonight at the United Nations?
FARIS: Sure. They can tell the Russian people whatever they want. I think what was missing from Putin speech today of course that on what`s being said right now, but it`s preparing the Russian people for hardship that might result from this decision. That is, crippling sanctions on Russian -- it`s not something that`s just going to be felt by the wealthy, but it could affect all Russians. It could affect the economy moving forward.
And there was nothing on the speech today that suggests that he is prepared for things to go badly.
[22:15:00]
Invasions do not always go as planned. Whatever his ultimate war aims are here, we still don`t know whether he plans to stop in these two provinces or whether he`s going to create a territorial quarter to another breakaway region in Moldova, or whether he tends to overthrow the Democratic regime in Ukraine.
All of these things are pretty unprecedented in the post World War II era. I think, I`m not sure that here the Russian people are prepared for the ultimate outcome here, which could be having to install some kind of public regime in Kyiv and rule over a broken and hostile country. I don`t see the upside there for Russia. I think that Putin is acting capriciously here and I don`t know there`s anything you could say to the Russian people, ultimately, if this goes south on him. I agree, it could destabilize the authoritarian regime there in Moscow.
O`DONNELL: David Faris, David Rothkopf, and Eugene Robinson, thank you very much for starting off our coverage tonight. Really appreciate it.
ROTHKOPF: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And coming up, Yale University history professor Timothy Snyder will join us next with his response to the history of Ukraine as taught to the Russian people by Vladimir Putin today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:21]
O`DONNELL: Ukraine`s ambassador to the United Nations is speaking right now to the United Nations Security Council. Let`s listen to some of that.
SERGIOY KYSLYTSYA, UKRAINE`S AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Outcomes of the decision taken. Recognition of the occupied parts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine may be considered as unilateral (INAUDIBLE) by Russia from the Minsk agreement. Disregard of the decisions taken in the framework of Normandy form (ph).
This step undermines peaceful efforts and ruins the existing negotiating frameworks. By the decisions adopted today, and those that may be adopted tomorrow, Russia legalizes the presence of its troops, which have actually been in the occupied areas of Donbas since 2014. A country that has fueled the war for eight years is not able to maintain peace as it claims.
What will happen next?
We want peace, and we are insistent in our actions. Today, the ministry of foreign affairs of Ukraine has sent a request on the basis of the Budapest memorandum to the guarantors of Ukraine demanding immediate consultations.
The meeting of the U.N. Security Council and the special meeting of the OSCE --
O`DONNELL: And joining us now is Timothy Sanders -- Timothy Snyder, sorry. He`s a professor of history at Yale University and author of "The Road to Unfreedom: Russia, Europe, and America".
Professor Snyder, I want to get your reaction to the situation as it is breaking at the United Nations tonight. What we just heard from Ukraine`s ambassador, coming after this very historic day for that country.
TIMOTHY SNYDER, YALE UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR: I will start with what the Russian ambassador was saying. I realize you didn`t have translation, but what he was claiming was the Russian aggression today is a result of the Ukrainian provocation, and that is a very important word in the Russian military vocabulary, the idea of provocation. When they try to do is get the other side in some way to expose itself. If the other side doesn`t, as Ukraine has not, they say it has done so anyway.
So, Russia`s story about its invasion in Ukraine, is Ukrainian somehow started it. That is, of course, completely false, and I`m struck in listening to the Ukrainian ambassador, how calm he is, which is a contrast, not just with the mendacity of the Russian ambassador, but also with the hysteria of President Putin`s speech earlier today, which he was very wide ranging rhetoric to explain what he was doing.
O`DONNELL: Putin today said modern-day Ukraine was full and on whole created by Russia. He basically gave the Russian people a history lesson about Ukraine. What would you, what are your comments on that history lesson?
SNYDER: It was surreal for me. I actually was taking part, as Mr. Putin was speaking, in the examination of a doctoral dissertation by a young retrain cranium historian. It`s very strange, when you`re surrounded by the reality of Ukrainian history to hear distant tyrant declare that it doesn`t exist.
Obviously, he`s wrong. He`s wrong. The specific claim is that the Soviet Union, Ukraine, opposite is closer to the truth. The Soviet Union transform it did, that, is as a union of republics with national names, precisely because the founders of the Soviet Union knew that there was a Ukrainian question, and knew they had to address it in some way.
The Ukrainian national movement went back 100 years before the Soviet Union. The elements of Ukrainian history go back to the middle ages. So, he`s got it completely wrong, but it`s more important politically, what he`s doing. When you deny that another nation exists, you are making a claim that it is okay to destroy that other nation.
So, this kind of language, that another nation doesn`t exist, is something we have to pay attention to, because usually precedes atrocious actions.
O`DONNELL: Vladimir Putin also talked about his belief, or the way he said it, he believes the United States would find a way to sanction Russia no matter what they did, even if they did nothing in the Ukraine.
[22:25:09]
And he said the purpose is single: To keep Russia behind, to prevent it from developing, and they will do it before, even without any formal pretext, just because we exist. We will never give up our sovereignty, national interest, and our values.
What was your reaction to that?
SNYDER: Russia is the biggest country in the world. The West does not threaten Russia in any material way. The problems that Russia has with this development have to do with the fact that its wealth is highly concentrated in the hands of a few man who happened to be the same men who run the country. Those are the problems that Russia actually has.
The rhetoric that Mr. Putin is using today is designed to flip the story so that the men who are incredibly wealthy and powerful can portray themselves as victims as of an international conspiracy. The question is whether enough Russians would go along with that.
I think Mr. Putin has a real problem here. His first told his people that there is no way he`s going to invade Ukraine. Now he has invaded Ukraine without any kind of provocation whatsoever. I think Russians are going to have something to think about in coming days.
O`DONNELL: Will Russians see this as an invasion of Ukraine? Our reporting so far rip reports that there is no Russian movement beyond where they already were in certain separatist areas of Ukraine.
SNYDER: I think what Mr. Putin is trying to do, at least at first, is to go step-by-step. As your viewers will know, Russia invaded and occupied part of Ukraine in 2014, and it is what Mr. Putin did today was to recognize or offer Russia`s official, quote, unquote, recognition to two breakaway republics on the territory of the Ukraine.
And now, he can send troops to those republics on the logic that these are existing sovereign entreaties, which, of course, they are not. That muddles the picture, but the fundamental story, the point of international law is, Russian troops, Russians say more Russian troops are illegally entering Ukraine.
You`re right from the point of view of concerns of Russian media, this may not seem like a tremendous change in the status quo, but what from what I am reading, from perceptive Russian observers, they recognize the something faith shameful has started.
O`DONNELL: Does Vladimir Putin look across the border at Ukraine and think, okay, this is a low cost, cheap, easy win for me, I can invade Ukraine, do it quickly and easily, and have a big win?
SNYDER: I think what you are describing very well is Mr. Putin in around the years 2008 to 2014, tactical Putin. There has always been tactical Putin and ideological Putin. But I have to say under the impression of the last few weeks, especially this speech today, it does seem like ideological Putin is gaining the upper hand and that perhaps this version of the Russian president is less concerned about the costs that an ordinary leader might be concerned with.
O`DONNELL: Professor, before you go, talk about the history of suffering in Ukraine, which could be an area where we are going to see a great deal of suffering very soon.
SNYDER: This is the heartbreaking part about it. Here we have a country that has been independent for 40 years and by fits and starts, a couple of young generations are making their way towards having a normal life. That has been interrupted by the war 2014. It`s terrible to think it will be interrupted again, especially against the backdrop of their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, having lived in a country which suffered so much during the 20th century.
Ukraine was at the center of suffering in the Stalinist Soviet Union, millions of people died by famine, tens of thousands more by a great terror. And then Ukraine was at the center of Hitler`s worldview, the center of Nazi war planning, so that horrific numbers of people in Ukraine, Ukrainian Jews, but also non-Jewish Ukrainians, died in horrible numbers during the German occupation.
Between 1933 and 1945, when both of those horrible rulers were in power, Ukraine was the most dangerous place to be on Earth. Ukrainians have a right to interpret that history. I think they have a right to ask for a future that is better than that passed.
O`DONNELL: Professor Timothy Snyder, thank you for joining us on this important night. We really appreciate it.
SNYDER: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And coming up, defendant Trump. A ruling by federal judge could bankrupt Donald Trump at the same time the prosecutors in New York and Georgia are conducting criminal investigations of Donald Trump. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:29:55]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: As we have noted on this program before, 75-year-old Donald Trump is going to be a defendant for the rest of his life. The appeals process alone and the massive cases of civil litigation in which he is already a defendant, as well as the possible appeals process of any cases in which he might become a criminal defendant, will easily last at least ten years from now, and possibly longer.
In the "New York Daily News", Pulitzer Prize winner David Cay Johnston, who has been writing about Donald Trump`s businesses for decades summarizes what it feels like to be defendant Trump tonight.
[22:34:58]
"Ahead lie expected indictments in New York and Georgia, contesting 20 civil lawsuits, massive legal bills and keeping up payments on $1.3 billion of debt as his businesses struggle. His three golf resorts in Scotland and Ireland have lost more than $100 million in just seven months. He must refinance his $100 million Trump Tower loan."
And his accounting firm has dropped Donald Trump as a client just when he needs them the most. The biggest thing at risk for Defendant Trump is money. If Donald Trump is convicted of crimes, he will not spend any time in prison, because it would be functionally impossible to incarcerate a former president along with his full Secret Service protective detail. And so a judge would simply order the Secret Service protective unit to in effect take custody of Donald Trump while he serves any criminal sentence in home confinement.
In other words, his life as a convicted felon would look exactly the way it looks today, without the rallies. It is the loss of money that Donald Trump has to fear the most. And the largest amount of money at stake for Defendant Trump is what a Washington, D.C. federal jury could order him to pay in civil lawsuits filed against Donald Trump for, in effect, inciting the attack on the capital.
On Friday, Federal Judge Amit Mehta denied Donald Trump`s request to dismiss those cases completely. And in a 112-page ruling the judge explained why Donald Trump will now have to submit to under oath questioning in the civil lawsuits about the attack on the Capitol.
Quote, "President Trump`s January 6 rally speech was akin to telling an excited mob that corn dealers starve the poor in front of the corn dealers home. He invited his supporters to Washington, D.C. and directed them to march on the Capitol building, the metaphorical corn dealers house, where those very politicians were at work to certify an election that he had lost.
The judge said that the lawsuits contained quote, "numerous examples of the president`s communications being understood by supporters as direct messages to them and in the case of the January 6th rally, as a call to action. The court well understands the gravity of its decision, but the alleged facts of this case are without precedent."
Joining us now, Daniel Goldman who served as the House impeachment inquiry majority counsel for the first impeachment trial of Donald Trump. He`s a former assistant U.S. attorney for the southern district of New York and an MSNBC legal contributor.
And Daniel, I`d like to begin with these massive civil suits filed against Donald Trump for the attack on the Capitol, and what the civil liabilities could be in those cases.
DANIEL GOLDMAN, MSNBC LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, there`s a lot of liability for Donald Trump in those cases as well in potential civil enforcement action by New York attorney general Letitia James. An additional order from a judge last week ruled that Donald Trump had to sit for a deposition in that investigation.
So on the civil front, are you agree with David Cay Johnston, that the walls are really closing in. and when you combine those two judicial orders with the Mazars accounting firm, essentially withdrawing from its representation of Donald Trump, his finances and the finances of the Trump Organization are as much in jeopardy as they ever have been.
There`s a very different story I think right now than what is going on, on the criminal front and whether Donald Trump would be indicted for any crimes when those investigations appear to be going slowly, if at all, in the case of the coup attempt.
O`DONNELL: And when you look at the criminal side, there`s a criminal investigation in New York, there`s a criminal investigation in Georgia, the investigation in Georgia seems very clear.
We all know much of, if not all of, the evidence in the Georgia case. The most important evidence being Donald Trump`s taped phone call. We don`t have anything like that kind of insight into the real evidence in the New York criminal investigation.
GOLDMAN: Well, the New York criminal investigation is going to be very similar to the civil investigation.
[22:39:51]
GOLDMAN: It`s a financial investigation that I suspect is examining whether or not Donald Trump or others in the Trump Organization intentionally misled banks, insurance companies, tax authorities, by misrepresenting and evaluation of properties and other issues, to essentially defraud them into giving Donald Trump more money for reducing his tax liabilities.
That`s a very hard case to make. And it is because you really have to show that Donald Trump knew that he was misleading these insurance companies, and for someone who does not email and does not text it`s very hard to find that proof as a prosecutor.
You would need a witness who he spoke with and explain how he wanted the scheme to run and right now it`s unclear whether there is such a witness who could cooperate against him.
The standard in the civil case though is a lot lower. You don`t have to show that (INAUDIBLE) that criminal intent that you do in a prosecution. And so Donald Trump and the Trump Organization could very much be on the hook for very similar evidence just in a civil context where money is at stake and frankly, the existence of the Trump Organization, the attorney general in New York to dissolve the Trump Organization if there`s a pervasive fraud.
So the same conduct is the issue in the criminal investigation and the civil investigation, but it`s just a lot harder to make the case in the criminal investigation.
O`DONNELL: To go back to the January 6th lawsuits, Judge Mehta made the point, made a real distinction between Donald Trump, Jr. who has been named as a defendant in those civil lawsuits and Rudy Giuliani also named as a defendant.
He did dismiss the cases against them and kind of surgically removed their words that were being used against them and then put context around them to say, in the case of Giuliani`s public comments, he didn`t say to specifically go up to the capital right now and do something in the way that Donald Trump did.
The judge made a very important statement about Donald Trump saying that they should all go to the Capitol and fight like hell. Donald Trump even himself saying he was going to go with them.
GOLDMAN: That`s true. And I think the other thing that really motivated Judge Mehta is the pattern and practice of Donald Trump`s call in response to his supporters. When he said, as you pointed out, you know, stand up or stand by during the debate and the head of the Proud Boys, saying "standing by, sir".
When he said that people should go and protest in Arizona shortly after the election, the election facility was surrounded by angry protesters. The list goes on.
And I think that the impeachment managers in the second impeachment did a really good job of laying out how Donald Trump had to have known the impact and import of his words. And that when he did ask his followers to do something or did mention that they might want to do something, they went ahead and did it.
So if it happened one time one time, ok, may you say, I didn`t know they were going to do it. For example, when he said, Russia if you`re listening I`m sure it would be great to find Hillary Clinton`s emails and then five hours later Russia did that.
Well, that was in 2016. Now by 2020 he`s done it; in 2021 he`s done it so many times. And he`s seen the reaction that he can`t claim ignorance anymore when he says that.
And that differentiates him from Don Jr. and Rudy Giuliani and some of the others.
O`DONNELL: Daniel Goldman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
GOLDMAN: My pleasure.
O`DONNELL: And coming up, we`re going to go back to the United Nations Security Council meeting. We will have more breaking news on the United Nations meeting about Ukraine. That`s next.
[22:44:12]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: The United Nations emergency Security Council meeting has just ended. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Linda Thomas-Greenfield spoke with reporters after the Security Council meeting and said, "Just now my Russian counterpart made assertions without evidence to demonstrate their efforts to create a pretext for conflict. And it is alarming. It is revealing. And it is shameful. Every U.N. member state has a stake in what comes next.
Joining our discussion now is Tim O`Brien, senior columnist for Bloomberg Opinion and Eugene Robinson is back with us.
And Tim, we have the beginnings today of sanctions by the Biden administration based first on Vladimir Putin simply recognizing as independent the rebel-controlled areas of Ukraine.
There are more sanctions to come. What can we expect to see in future sanctions?
TIM O`BRIEN, SENIOR COLUMNIST, BLOOMBERG OPINION: Well you know, I think one thing the Russians learned, Lawrence, from the sanctions that were imposed after Putin invaded and annexed Crimea in 2014, was that they had to insulate themselves from the dollar. Russia now has massive currency reserves I think on the order of $630 billion, very little of that is dollar denominated, it`s gold. It`s renminbi and other assets.
[22:49:50]
O`BRIEN: The state budget has been pared back. So Putin and his regime have gone very far to protect themselves from the kind of sanctions that the west imposed after 2014.
What is being considered now however is much more dramatic than anything that was imposed in 2014. There is considerations about cutting off Russian banks from the international banking system and going much more aggressively after assets controlled by the coterie of oligarchs who surround Putin.
That is not going to have an immediate effect and probably little that`s going to have an effect on Putin himself. Vladimir -- you know, there`s a lot of speculation about how much money Putin has and where it is stored. The reality is he can steal money from the Russian state anytime he needs it.
It`s going to be very hard for any western power to get to Putin personally. It`s going to be very hard for sanctions in the near term to have an immediate impact.
Russia has braced itself for this. But over the long term, what the west is considering to do will cripple the Russian economy. They are not going to be able to insulate themselves from that indefinitely.
At the same time, it also could have a boomerang effect on western economies. Russia is the second biggest producer of titanium in the world. German manufacturing relies on Russian natural gas. The power, you know, one of the biggest manufacturing engines in Europe. So any of these sanctions will also bounce back on the west.
So I think what you`re going to see is a tightening of the economic noose around the Russian economy and then probably a game of cat and mouse to see how long that can last.
O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what President Obama said about the Russian economy in 2016 in one of his last discussions with the press in his presidency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Russians can`t change us or significantly weaken us. They are a smaller country. They are a weaker country. Their economy doesn`t produce anything that anybody wants to buy accept oil and gas and arms. They don`t innovate.
But they can impact us if we lose track of who we are. They can impact us if we abandon our values.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Eugene Robinson, and we know that that kind of accurate description of the weakness of the Russian economy is the kind of thing that drove Vladimir Putin crazy. I mean the Russian economy is half the size of California`s economy. I don`t have a single thing in my house or anywhere that I own that was made in Russia. Not one part in my car was made in Russia. Not one part of anything I own, not one tiny piece of it was made in Russia. This is a failed economic arrangement that Vladimir Putin has led into just permanent failure.
EUGENE ROBINSON, WASHINGTON POST: Yes. That`s fine with Vladimir Putin. I mean this is what he has wrought, and he is satisfied with it and happy with it. And in addition to having what is in many ways a failed economy, you know, who was it who said if Russia was a gas station with a nuclear weapon.
And yes, he has nuclear weapons and he has a much more modern, better equipped army than he had ten or 15 years ago. And so Russia is a force on the world stage because of that rather than because of, you know, the things that make other nations great, like China and Germany and these roaring economies. Russia doesn`t have that. And Putin doesn`t care.
O`DONNELL: Here is more of what Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield had to say tonight.
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LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Tomorrow the United States will impose sanctions on Russia for this clear violation of international law and Ukraine`s sovereignty and territorial integrity.
We can, will, and must stand united in our calls for Russia to withdraw its forces, return to the diplomatic table, and work toward peace. Thank you.
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O`DONNELL: So Tim, we`re going to get our first look at what the real sanctions packages tomorrow.
[22:54:49]
O`BRIEN: I suppose in addition to some of the other things we have talked about there will be technology blocks on the import and export of technology -- technological goods which can have an impact on a range of Russian needs, from cell phones to military weapons.
Again though, I think we are not, I don`t know that any of this short term is going to prevent Vladimir Putin from putting the Russian people through an economic ringer in the service of his own broader goals for reestablishing Russia as a player on the global stage. And I think it`s going to take a lot of time for us to see that draw out.
Tim O`Brien and Eugene Robinson, thank you both for joining our discussion tonight.
ROBINSON: Thanks, Lawrence.
O`BRIEN: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: And up next, tonight news about the supremely qualified women President Biden is considering for the United States Supreme Court. That`s next.
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[22:59:50]
O`DONNELL: NBC News is reporting tonight that President Biden has interviewed potential Supreme Court candidates. We can report that the interviews started in recent days. On Friday, press secretary Jen Psaki confirmed the president is on track to meet his own self-imposed deadline.
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JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He has every intention of making a decision this month. He is on track to do so. That will mean he will have chosen a nominee faster than any Democratic president in decades, and obviously he`s somebody who has to, as leader of the free world and President of the United States, conduct business on a number of fronts at the same time.
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O`DONNELL: Jen Psaki gets tonight`s LAST WORD.
"THE 11TH HOUR" starts now.