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The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 4/4/2016

Guests: Charlie Sykes, Katie Packer, Jacob Rascon, Bruce Bartlett, Barney Frank, Nina Turner

Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL Date: April 4, 2016 Guest: Charlie Sykes, Katie Packer, Jacob Rascon, Bruce Bartlett, Barney Frank, Nina Turner

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Now it`s time for "THE LAST WORD" with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening, Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Rachel, get home right now and get right to sleep.

MADDOW: I will.

O`DONNELL: You`ve got a long night tomorrow night.

MADDOW: I`m just going to --

O`DONNELL: Long night --

MADDOW: I`m just going to sleep right here.


O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.

MADDOW: Bye, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Well, we`re going to have a mini Hillary versus Bernie debate tonight between their supporters Barney Frank and Nina Turner.

And when Donald Trump told two reporters in an interview that we are on the verge of a massive recession, they actually worried about how Wall Street would react to that today because they apparently didn`t realize that Wall Street has never taken Donald Trump seriously.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a dirty business, this politics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The anti-Trump forces are lined up.

TRUMP: "Never Trump". Did you hear this? "Never Trump".

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ted Cruz might not be the best fit for Wisconsin for our style.


SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: No funny hats.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is the one guy that can block Donald Trump.

TRUMP: Everybody hates Cruz. Lying Ted Cruz.

CRUZ: We`re going to beat him to 1,237 delegates, either before the convention or at Cleveland.

TRUMP: Tom Brady likes me a lot, so that helps, right?

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: They`re obviously very worried about me going to the convention.

TRUMP: Kasich, he is 1 for 30. He ought to get the hell out, honestly, because I love to be honest.

KASICH: I`m not going to be a pincushion. I`m not going to be a marshmallow.

TRUMP: It`s like we`re a bunch of babies.

CHUCK TODD, MODERATOR, MEET THE PRESS: Is Donald Trump your strongest candidate?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know --

TRUMP: Reince --

REINCE PRIEBUS, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: We`re here prepared to support whoever the eventual nominee is.

TRUMP: If we do well here, folks, it`s over.

CHARLIE SYKES, RADIO HOST: Wisconsin has to be this firewall of rationality in the craziness of this campaign.

TRUMP: My life is crazy.

MELANIA TRUMP, WIFE OF DONALD TRUMP: When you attack him, he will punch back ten times harder.




O`DONNELL: No one ignores Donald Trump more than America`s richest people. The people who run Wall Street think Donald Trump is a joke.

A bad joke. Everyone on Wall Street, from the billionaires down to the lowest-ranking clerks think they know more about markets and the economy than Donald Trump ever will.

Donald Trump proved today just how much of a joke he is to Wall Street because today, nothing happened on Wall Street.

Nothing. Nothing out of the ordinary. It was just a typical day of trading on Wall Street.

And today was the day after Donald Trump said in a "Washington Post" interview that everyone should get out of the stock market right now because we are headed for "a very massive recession."

America`s richest people knew that was just another very massive ridiculous statement by Donald Trump, just like all those massive ridiculous statements about how rich he is.

In that "Washington Post" interview, Donald Trump once again insisted that he made $213 million from his reality TV show.

He claims that was proven by a press release put out by his campaign that included no documentation at all about how much money he actually made from that TV show.

No one in the political media seemed to notice the next week when Donald Trump actually filed an official financial statement with the federal election commission, which listed the salary that he made from "The Apprentice" in 2014 as exactly $14,222.

That is the only amount of income from his TV show that Donald Trump has included in an official campaign filing with the FEC.

Donald Trump does not have a billion dollars lying around to spend on a presidential campaign.


TRUMP: So, I`m self-funding. You know, I`m totally self-funding. I`m self-funding my campaign.

I`m self-funding my campaign, folks. I`m self-funding my campaign, and I`m putting up my own money.

And remember this, very importantly, I`m self-funding my campaign.


O`DONNELL: As we`ve noted many times before, Donald Trump is not, repeat, not self-funding his campaign.

He has been lending money to his campaign which his campaign can pay back to him if it raises enough outside money.

And so far, the Trump campaign has raised over $9.5 million in outside donations, and it plans to raise much more.

Gabe Sherman was granted extraordinary access to the Trump campaign for his cover story this week in "New York Magazine".

He reports, "Trump won`t fund a general election himself and he has no national fund-raising apparatus in place.

The campaign has been talking to veteran GOP fundraiser Ray Washburne about taking outside money, according to the "Washington Post"."

Gabe Sherman reports overhearing a Trump operative discussing fundraising efforts, saying, "I have to find a place for these rich guys to go to, he said. Dinners, receptions, events.

We need everything because we don`t have a finance committee."


TRUMP: You take a look at the people supporting Ted Cruz. Totally -- you take a look at the people that are giving to his PACs and that are giving him money.

These people are -- they have total control over him. They will say jump, Ted. In some cases, they`ll say jump, lying Ted because nobody lies like this guy.

This guy is a liar.


O`DONNELL: If Donald Trump wins the Republican presidential nomination, he will be begging those same people for campaign contributions.

Gabe Sherman`s "New York Magazine" article says, "it will be a hard sell for Trump, one of the hardest of his career to persuade GOP donors to pony up, especially after his attacks on the donor class."

Voters will be heading to the polls in Wisconsin tomorrow morning where according to the latest poll from Emerson College, Ted Cruz is in the lead at 40 percent, followed by Donald Trump at 35 percent, John Kasich at 21 percent.

On the final day of campaigning in Wisconsin today, conservative talk radio host Charlie Sykes was leading the "Stop Trump" movement.


SYKES: Great moments in presidential rhetoric. Ronald --


SYKES: Reagan, Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. Donald J. Trump, Charlie Sykes is a low-life loser.

So again, kind of a badge of honor because you know, you make the list of the people that he`s insulted and I`m kind of glad to be on that list now.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Charlie Sykes, radio host with "WTMJAM" in Milwaukee and the editor-in-chief of "Right Wisconsin".

He`s endorsed Ted Cruz and is a leader of the "Stop Trump" movement. Also with us, Katie Packer, founder of Our Principles, an anti-Trump PAC.

She was deputy campaign manager of the Romney 2012 campaign. And also with us, "Nbc News" correspondent Jacob Rascon, who covers the Donald Trump campaign.

Charlie Sykes, welcome to the Donald Trump --

SYKES: Thank you --

O`DONNELL: Enemies list. I`ve been on it for many years now. I was the very first person five years ago who he actually threatened to sue on Twitter.

I got the first, you know, I should sue you tweet. So, Charlie, welcome aboard for that --

SYKES: Congratulations --

O`DONNELL: The -- Wisconsin seems to be behaving differently from other states that we`ve seen in the Republican campaign so far for a variety of reasons.

A lot of people are focused on you and other talk radio hosts there who have been very strongly anti-Donald Trump --

SYKES: Right --

O`DONNELL: And that`s in contrast to some of the other radio markets in the country that are dominated by the national shows like Rush Limbaugh who has been essentially very pro-Trump as this campaign has worn on --

SYKES: Right --

O`DONNELL: Is that -- is that one of the big differences we`re seeing there?

SYKES: It`s one of them. It`s not the only difference. But that is extraordinary, by the way.

That, you know, this week for the first time you push back on Donald Trump, you begin to ask him tough questions, you begin to expose all of the -- you know, the fraud, you know, behind this guy.

And it does occur to me this didn`t happen in any of the other states, it didn`t happen in Florida. It didn`t happen in South Carolina.

I mean, really, what does this say about the rest of the media that we`re just finding out about the kinds of things that you were talking about?

And you know, if you have, you know, liberal media, fine, go after him. But the conservative media, frankly, has to have a day of reckoning to ask how did you let this guy go for so long and let this scam get as far as it has gotten?

O`DONNELL: Charlie, I listened -- I was driving the day after that first Republican debate.

And I listened to the entire Rush Limbaugh show for the three hours, and what I noticed was his listeners were very pro Trump that day.

And it felt --

SYKES: Right --

O`DONNELL: To me that what I was hearing over time with Rush Limbaugh is he was following his listeners that if his listeners were going to go in that direction, his ratings were going to be dependent on just how pro Trump he was.

SYKES: Yes, I think that mean there are two things that go on. I mean, number one, maybe people don`t want to be attacked by Donald Trump.

By the way, it`s not so terrible, you can --

O`DONNELL: Oh, yes --

SYKES: You can survive it --

O`DONNELL: Yes, there is life --

SYKES: And --


SYKES: And secondly, there is this pandering for ratings, which you know, at a certain point, if we actually stand for something, if we actually believe in the things that we`ve been talking about for -- you know, in my case for more than 20 years, at some point, you have to take a stand.

You actually have to stand up and tell your audience, OK, this is what you need to know about this guy because I think there`s kind of a moral responsibility at certain point.

And I have to say, it`s very disillusioning for a lot of folks watching what some of these fan boys in the national media have done.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Donald Trump said today about the "Never Trump" movement.



TRUMP: It`s called "Never Trump". Did you hear this? "Never Trump". Do you know what these are?

These are establishment people that don`t want to see it happen because they`re all on the trough, they`re making a lot of money -- I don`t think in many cases they care who wins it.

Want to keep it going.


O`DONNELL: Katie Packer, he`s talking about you. Establishment people making a lot of money from the "Never Trump" movement.

And you just want to make a lot of money, that`s the only reason you`re in there.

KATIE PACKER, FOUNDER, OUR PRINCIPLES PAC: Well, I don`t think I`ve made as much money as Corey Lewandowski, his campaign manager who batters women.

But I have to say that I really applaud Charlie Sykes and I think you`re absolutely right.

You know, conservatives have to stand for something and they can`t just be shilling for ratings.

And Charlie Sykes is a hero in my book because he`s somebody that has stood up to Donald Trump and he has exposed this emperor for having no clothes.

And I really -- I applaud you, Charlie, and the others in Wisconsin that have really led the way in sort of straightening things out and telling the truth about this guy.

And so, you`re a hero in my book.

O`DONNELL: Jacob Rascon, you were at that Trump event tonight in Wisconsin. And any word from the Trump campaign about why they changed their plans in Wisconsin?

A week ago when they first went to Wisconsin, they were -- they said they were going to stay there the whole week.

And then they abandoned the state. They went on an emergency trip to Washington and Trump disappeared for a couple of days.

Any explanation for that today?

JACOB RASCON, NBC NEWS: Well, it was a no good, very bad week, as many say. The Trump campaign says it wasn`t as bad as the media says.

But he wanted to go to Washington, he thought that was important. He wanted to get a picture with his foreign policy team, of course.

We also saw something different, Lawrence, in the way the campaign is choosing their venues.

They chose small venues, and as well they`re screening the line heavily. And Trump admitted in this "Washington Post" article today that the protests that have been coming to his rallies are having an impact.

He really, even though he says, oh, the protests make this really interesting, he really wants to get those disruptions away.

And we saw him turn away thousands of Trump supporters just to keep the anti-Trump crowd at bay.

And in fact, he did that last week and this week. But he really wants to win Wisconsin.

We`ve seen him play expectations in other states. In Utah, for example, his campaign saying oh, he hasn`t been there very often.

But he is predicting here still today a big win. And he was out three events, Saturday, three events, Sunday, three events, Monday, bringing out his wife, Melania, for the first time in more than a month.

And she spoke today for the most time we`ve ever seen her speak with him, almost two minutes, with a prepared statement.

So, Trump really wants to win. Watch tomorrow if Trump loses for the campaign to try to do or say something to divert the attention away from that big loss.

And of course, he`ll try to tout his numbers going forward on these coast states. Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Charlie Sykes, what would your interpretation -- if the polls hold up and we see Ted Cruz come in --

SYKES: Yes --

O`DONNELL: First in Wisconsin by five or maybe more, and Trump --

SYKES: More --

O`DONNELL: In second, what would your interpretation be of that going forward?

SYKES: Well, that we`ve actually seen the template for what it takes to stop Donald Trump.

I think right now we have the perfect storm here in Wisconsin. You have a group like Katie Packer`s Super PAC that`s up on the air.

They`re doing direct mail. You actually have a conservative talk radio finally holding him accountable.

You have a lot of the very popular elected officials including Governor Scott Walker who are all in for Ted Cruz right now.

Conservatives have finally coalesced around an opponent, so this is really the first of the binary contests.

I think people are going to look at this as really a pivot point in the campaign. And in the two weeks now that it`s going to follow, people will say, OK, what did that look like?

What strategy actually worked? And how can we use that going forward? And I think it is interesting that he`s raising expectations because Donald Trump is not going to win in Wisconsin tomorrow.

And I think that his bad week is going to take a terrible toll and I think that you`re going to see by the way, specifically his problem with women.

In southeastern Wisconsin, we have a lot of conservative Republican women and they are overwhelmingly breaking against Donald Trump because of the way he treats women.

And this is something going forward that I don`t see any indication that he`s actually has a plan or even an inclination to address.

O`DONNELL: Katie Packer, how far does your -- does your PAC intend to go? If no one has the 1,237 going into the convention, will you continue the "Stop Trump" movement going right into the convention?

I mean, would you be doing TV advertising in Cleveland, you know, the weekend before the convention, trying to convince delegates?

PACKER: I don`t know about TV advertising. Our plan is, you know, moving past Wisconsin.

We agree with Charlie, we don`t think he`s going to win in Wisconsin, and we have said that if he doesn`t win Wisconsin and Indiana, he can`t get to 1,237.

And so we feel very optimistic moving past tomorrow, our focus is going to be delegate by delegate.

We had a great weekend in North Dakota and Colorado this past week where basically Donald Trump got shut out of both places that have had contests over the weekend.

And we plan to go right into Cleveland. We do think that this battle is going to go to Cleveland.

He will not have 1,237 on that first ballot and if he doesn`t have it on the first ballot he`s going to drop from there.

And so we feel very good about the operation as it is right now and moving on into a delegate fight after tomorrow.

O`DONNELL: Katie Packer, thanks for joining us tonight and Jacob Rascon, thank you for joining us tonight.

And Charlie Sykes, thank you very much for joining us. And Charlie, welcome to that Trump`s enemies list --

SYKES: Thank you --

O`DONNELL: You`ve got a lot of good company.

SYKES: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you. Coming up --

PACKER: Thanks --

O`DONNELL: Donald Trump would not be the first Republican president who didn`t trust the way the unemployment rate is calculated.

Richard Nixon said it was "a Jewish cabal", we have the tape. And a special LAST WORD tonight about what happened on this day in 1968 at the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee.


O`DONNELL: "The Huffington Post" reports that Charles Koch is pushing the Republican Party to consider nominating house Speaker Paul Ryan as the party`s nominee at the Republican convention if it`s a contested convention.

Today, Paul Ryan said this to Hugh Hewitt.



I said get my name out of that. This is -- if you want to be president, you should go run for president.

And that is the way I see it. I think you need to run for president if you`re going to be president.

And I`m not running for president, so period, end of story.


O`DONNELL: Period, end of story. Up next, what Donald Trump has in common with Richard Nixon.



TRUMP: I was interviewed by Bob Woodward and Bob Costa at "The Washington Post", and two great reporters.

And they did a story, and it was -- I thought it was a pretty good story. It was pretty accurate.

I don`t know where they had this, but somebody came out that I said we are going -- we`re in a bubble, big bubble.

Bubbles aren`t pretty. We`ve had bubbles, and when they burst it`s not a good thing. And what I said is we`re going to go into a massive recession.

But I also say if I`m president, that`s not going to happen because I`m going to straighten things out before it happens.


O`DONNELL: Donald Trump today in Wisconsin repeating what he had said in a "Washington Post" interview on Sunday.

One of his interviewers, Robert Costa, said this tonight on "HARDBALL".



CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC: Unprecedented for a major party figure to step out and start talking about a massive recession on the horizon, calling it a terrible time to invest.

Woodward and I walked out of the meeting, and we said we wondered if the markets were open and what this would do.


O`DONNELL: The reporters worry was misplaced since they did not apparently realize that the pronouncements of Donald Trump have never once been taken even slightly seriously by anyone on Wall Street ever.

Why would anyone on Wall Street listen to a guy who doesn`t even know what the unemployment rate is?


TRUMP: I`ve seen numbers of 24 percent, I actually saw a number of 42 percent unemployment, 42 percent!

The unemployment rate is probably 20 percent. But I will tell you, you have some great economists that will tell you it`s 30 percent, 32 percent.

And the highest I`ve heard so far is 42 percent.


O`DONNELL: He`s only off by 37 percent. The unemployment rate is actually 5.0 percent.

If Donald Trump does become president, he won`t be the first Republican president who doubts the Bureau of Labor Statistics measurement of the unemployment rate.

Here is President Richard Nixon in 1971, discussing the work of the BLS with his chief of staff.


RICHARD NIXON, LATE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Bob, how many were Jews? Out of the -- out of the 23 in the BLS, did you get (INAUDIBLE) --


NIXON: There`s a Jewish cabal, you know, running through this, working with people like Burns and the rest.

And they all -- they only talk to Jews. Now, but there it is. There is the U.S. (INAUDIBLE) -- you understand?


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, economist Bruce Bartlett, who was a former Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under President George H.W. Bush.

Bruce, first of all, thank you for guiding us to that Richard Nixon tape today.

But there in Richard Nixon`s anti-Semitic ravings, in his wildest dreams he never accused the BLS of understating the unemployment rate by 37 percent as we`re hearing from Donald Trump.

And all this other economic gibberish about eliminating the national debt and so forth. How do you -- how could -- how should serious people react to that in trying to deal -- explain it to Trump voters?

BRUCE BARTLETT, ECONOMIST: Well, it`s extremely embarrassing to say these kinds of things.

To get the highest number that I heard Trump mention in his -- in the intro, you have to count all the retired people in the United States, all the children still in school, people of that sort, people who are not working because they don`t want to work or they can`t work.

It`s absurd to count those people as unemployed. Realistically, we count as unemployed people who are in the labor force, who are trying to get a job or who have a job.

And on that basis, the unemployment rate is calculated to be 5 percent. But a lot of people say, oh, you should count people who are discouraged and given up looking for work or people who are working part-time and would like to work full-time.

If you add all those people in and count them as unemployed as well, you get a number of 9.8 percent.

That`s the so-called U-6 rate. That`s the highest number that one could reasonably assert is the real unemployment rate.

Anything higher than that is just ridiculous.

O`DONNELL: And Bruce, the craziest thing I`ve ever heard suggested by a presidential campaign, eliminating the national debt in eight years.

BARTLETT: Well, that`s just absurd. The national debt is something like $20 trillion right at the moment.

So, we`d have to pay down, you know, $2.5 trillion a year of debt. And the total national -- or total federal spending right now is about $4 trillion.

So, we`d have to cut almost everything the government does except maybe paying interest on the debt to have enough revenue unless we raise taxes.

And of course, Trump wants to cut taxes by about a trillion dollars a year as well. So, the numbers -- I mean, you`d have to literally abolish all spending for everything except paying down the debt.

O`DONNELL: Yes, it`s like someone coming along, you know, to someone who`s in the first year of a 30-year mortgage and saying, hey, I have a plan for you where you can get your whole mortgage paid off in eight years.

It`s at least as crazy as that.

BARTIROMO: Well, you`d think Trump would understand because it`s like real estate finance.

It`s like he`s buying a building that with tenants and they`re paying rent and he`s going to say -- oh, and right now the rent is not covering his -- the debt interest or the costs of running the building.

And he`s saying I`m going to give everybody a rent cut and at the same time I`m going to pay off the debt on this building, the mortgage on this building in eight years.

Obviously, he would understand that that is a ridiculous thing to believe is possible as a businessman.

So, why he can`t understand that the government operates the same way is frankly a mystery.

O`DONNELL: Bruce Bartlett, thank you very much for joining us tonight, I really appreciate it.

Coming up, our mini debate with Hillary Clinton supporter Barney Frank and Bernie Sanders supporter Nina Turner.


O`DONNELL: On the last day of campaigning in Wisconsin here is the way it looked today on the campaign trail.


TRUMP: The world is watching Wisconsin.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: We continue to have reporters covering all the campaigns today.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: This is a lot closer race than a lot of people expected at this point.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Are you voting tomorrow? Are you a primary voter?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOTER: Yes. I will be voting for Bernie Sanders.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I think Wisconsin has had a long tradition of progressive politics and I think Bernie`s message resonates.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: We cannot emphasize this enough. It is all about New York for Secretary Clinton. They are bracing for a potential loss in Wisconsin.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: About 24 hours we are going to know a whole lot more.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Bernie Sanders, himself, sounding confident today.



SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I-VT) DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If there is a large voter turnout I believe we win.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: That he was going to do well in Wisconsin.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Trump needs to back off.






UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: What do you think when you look at the republican field here?




UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: This is a guy named Bernie but despite the name likes Donald Trump.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: You are voting on Tuesday.







TRUMP: I really believe tomorrow we are going to have a very, very big victory.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He is Theodore Roosevelt riding in on his horse.




KELLY O`DONNELL, NBC NEWS, LEAD CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: We just had a chance to talk to Governor Kasich.



O`DONNELL: Governor, are you getting under their skin, Donald Trump in particular?

GOV. JOHN KASICH, (R)-OH PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: How do we go to a convention and they pick somebody who cannot beat Hillary?



TRUMP: Here is the story with Kasich.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: He really doubled down on this idea that John Kasich really needs to get out of the race.



TRUMP: He is 1 in 30. He ought to get the hell out. Honestly.



KASICH: I am not going anywhere.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Ted Cruz wants to win big here.



SEN> TED CRUZ, (R-TX) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There will be two candidates with a ton of delegates if we have a contested convention. Me and Donald Trump.



TRUMP: I love Wisconsin.



CRUZ: Our campaign will unify the Republican Party.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Let us stop talking politics. Let us have a beer and have a cheese curd, my friend.




SANDERS: Between you and me, I do not want to get Hillary Clinton more nervous than she already is. She is already under a lot of pressure.


So, do not tell her this. But I think we win here, we win in New York State, we are on our way to the white house.


O`DONNELL: That was Bernie Sanders in Janesville, Wisconsin today where the latest polls show him at 51 percent, Hillary Clinton at 43 percent. NBC`s Casey Hunt is in Milwaukee where Senator Sanders held a rally this evening.


KASIE HUNT, MSNBC POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Lawrence, good evening. Bernie Sanders has so much on the line in Wisconsin, but they do at this point expect to win that race. They are pushing ahead to Wyoming tomorrow, where he will hold an event ahead of the caucuses there.

Right now, it is all really about expectations. The question, what is the margin going to be on this Wisconsin primary? They know that they need to win here to get a little bit of momentum to carry them through into New York.

And, if they can do that, then Hillary Clinton potentially has a difficult couple of weeks with crowded Bernie Sanders rallies on her home turf in New York. So, a lot on the line for both of them. Hillary Clinton not even holding an election night rally tomorrow at all, Lawrence.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Barney Frank, former congressman from Massachusetts, and a Hillary Clinton supporter and Nina Turner, a former Ohio State senator, who supports Bernie Sanders. We are probably going to have about 10 minutes of talk time here. So, let us try to be respectful of each other`s talk time. We have all got something to say.

And, Barney Frank, I am going to start with you. And, by the way, as in any debate, feel free toying nor my question and make any point you want in favor of your candidate. But, what I begin with is just in the closing argument tonight for Wisconsin what would be the number one point you would make to Wisconsin voters? And, Nina, I would ask you the same thing after Barney finishes. Go ahead, Barney.

BARNEY FRANK, (D-MA) FMR. U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Well, there is pretty close agreement on what we want to do in terms of goals on the democratic side. It is a lot more coherent than the republican side. The question is who is the better change agent. And, I know the Sanders people are claiming that because of the militancy with which he makes his case, his purity, that he is a better one.

But that is not the verdict of almost everybody in the country who has been working hard and effectively for the change we have been able to get. Look at, for example, the congressional black caucus, the congressional Hispanic caucus, the gay and lesbian members. Now, there are about 70 of those. About 65 of them are for Hillary Clinton. Two are for Bernie Sanders.

There are dozens of African-American and Hispanic members who serve with both of them. All, but two are for Hillary Clinton. The organizations, Planned Parenthood, the human rights campaign. And, it has to do with how you bring about change. Senator Sanders` approach has been to say, "Look, I will state what I believe and I am not going to compromise and that is it."

What he is saying is he understands is going to be hard to enact. He in fact, himself, acknowledges that it will take a revolution to get what he has done. That is why he is in fact so critical objectively of President Obama. The health care bill that was passed, financial reform, those were tough hard things to get done.

Senator Sanders voted for them. If he had some very drastic alternatives, he did not make a very effective effort to get them done, but he now denigrates them. And, so, that is the difference. The people who have been working in the congress, and I am not talking about some establishment.

I am talking about the most effective liberals, people on the left. As I said, the black caucus, the leaders in the fight for immigration, the leaders in the fight for same-sex marriage, the leaders in the fight for economic justice. Overwhelmingly, based on having worked with both of them, they are for Hillary Clinton.

And, there is I think a difference in how you approach things. I think Senator Sanders opts for kind of the purity of the statement and it makes Sanders people feel good. But, if you look at the groups in our democratic coalition who have a lot on the line they are overwhelmingly for Hillary Clinton.

O`DONNELL: Nina Turner, what would be your number one point to Wisconsin voters tonight?

NINA TURNER, FMR. OHIO STATE SENATOR: I think the number one point that Senator Sanders has made and will continue to make is that he had been a consistent and honest champion against trade deals that take away jobs from folks in this country, in particular states like Wisconsin where those trade deals have devastated.

Senator Bernie Sanders has been on the picket line, not just talking the talk with the house of labor and whispering sweet nothings in their ear when it comes time for election, but he has actually put his body on the picket line with those workers. So, those are some of the things.

And, I certainly disagree with the congressman. There may be many people standing that are part of the elected ministry in the establishment, standing on the side of Secretary Clinton. Some of those folks I have worked with, but the bottom line is this. There are millions of Americans in this country who believe that change needs to come, that the status quo cannot continue, that people are suffering in this country.

And, Senator Bernie Sanders has a proven track record of having the good judgment and standing up for the least of these when it is not convenient. So, it is unfair. And, congress people like Keith Ellison. I would take his endorsement any day. And, he has endorsed senator Bernie Sanders and that is a big deal. There was a time in this country where the majority of folks thought slavery was OK too.

O`DONNELL: Barney, go ahead.

FRANK: That last comment just baffles me. It is going to take me about a week to figure out what that was supposed to mean. But as far as Keith Ellison is concerned, I admire Keith. I just signed an e-mail for him. But, he is one of 45 members of the congressional black caucus and every other one is for Hillary Clinton.

So, you are talking about the establishment. No, I do not think John Lewis, one of the great moral leaders of my generation who is a strong Hillary Clinton supporter, is the establishment, not in a bad way -- Or Luis Gutierrez who is led the fight for immigration. I understand, and maybe this highlights in.

Senator Sanders was on the picket line. And, that is a good place for people in labor. But what we want if we are going to make progress is to be effective within the way government works and to mobilize support for that. Yes, of course we want change. Hillary Clinton is as committed to change as Bernie Sanders, so as Barack Obama.

The problem is that Senator Sanders has denigrated the kind of change we were able to get because his mode of operation is in fact the picket line. And, if you look at -- people have made a big point about no senator was supporting Ted Cruz until the Trump horror overtook them.

Well, no senator was supporting Bernie Sanders. And, that includes a lot of committed non-establishment types. So, there is a difference in how you get things done. There is no great difference in where you want to go.

But the overwhelming -- and by the way, it is not just people in congress. Planned parenthood. The human rights campaign. Leading environmental groups. Leading budget fairness groups. They prefer Hillary Clinton because they do appreciate -- yes, senator Sanders speaks out, but simply articulating your position and not doing the hard work of getting legislation done, which means compromise, which he has a hard time doing --


FRANK: -- and that is a problem.

O`DONNELL: I am sorry. We are going to have to squeeze in a quick commercial here. So, we will have more talk time on the other side of it. We are going to have more with Barney Frank and Nina Turner in a moment.



CLINTON: I think the first test that you should hold anybody running for president to see whether or not they meet is can they actually make your life better?



CLINTON: I want to tell you what I want to do because I want you to hold me accountable for doing it.


O`DONNELL: We are back with former Congressman Barney Frank, who supports Hillary Clinton and former Ohio State Senator Nina Turner, who supports Bernie Sanders. And, Nina turner, to Hillary Clinton`s point and to the point Barney was just making that Hillary Clinton is the one who is better equipped and has a better record of actually getting things done than Bernie Sanders, what is your response to that?

TRUNER: You know, Lawrence, it is really patently unfair for the congressman to say that Senator Sanders has not been a part of getting things done in the congress. Let us not forget that he was on the committee that heard the Affordable Care Act, as a matter of fact, helped to make the Affordable Care Act a reality.

And, the senator is not against the Affordable Care Act. The only thing that he is saying is that in this country, there is still 29 million people who do not have health care and let us work for universal health care in this country. So, it is patently false to say that he wants to do away with it. It is patently false to say that he is against the president.

The congressman and I both know that Senator Sanders has voted over 98 percent of the time, he has been right where the democrats are. Let us not forget that one of the most comprehensive veteran bills that have passed in recent history was passed with Senator Bernie Sanders having a partnership with Senator John McCain. So, he does get things done.

He does not just talk the talk. He walks the walk. And, that is very important. And, people are look for that kind of change, that kind of righteous indignation in a leader that understands that the working poor and the middle class have been left behind in this country, that we have a corrupt system of finance that gives more speech to people who have money and we have to do something about that.

That is what they are looking for. He was the mayor of the city of Burlington, where he got a lot done. So, he has been both an administrator, a member of the house of representatives, and a member of the senate. And, he has a record to prove that not only can he work and compromise with people, he can get things done.

But, I do not think it is wrong for him to say that people have been suffering in this country, that people do deserve a living wage of $15 an hour. All of those things are important. And, that is what he is fighting for.

O`DONNELL: Barney Frank, go ahead.

FRANK: Yes, of course. First place, those are non-issues on the democratic side. The higher minimum wage, increasing health care. There is a question about how you do it. That is the other point I want to repeat is I think this is relevant, because the senator and I can talk about this and people listening.

You have members of congress, democratic members of congress. The congressional black caucus. The Hispanic caucus. Gay members. Advocates for health care. Advocates for tougher financial reform. They are overwhelmingly for Hillary Clinton. Two of the black and Hispanic members are for Sanders. Five total. But the -- and it is based on the view that she does better.

Yes, we want to expand health care. But you do it by essentially, as Senator Sanders began by saying in effect replacing what we now have with a new system, that it would be very hard to pass, or do you build on it incrementally? Incrementalism to him and I think to his supporters is a bad word but in the American system that is the only way you can get there.

And, let me give an example of what I think is his rigidity. One of the most important issues for Hispanics and strongly supported for democrats in general is amnesty, a legal path to citizenship. There was a bill that passed the senate that would have done that.

But the only way, you could get it done was to have a broader bill. And, in fact what happened was Bernie Sanders voted against it. Yes, he is for a path to citizenship, but he is against doing what you have to do in this American political system to get it done --

O`DONNELL: Barney.

FRANK: And, on the auto bailout --

O`DONNELL: Barney, I am sorry, we are out of time for tonight. I hope we can continue this conversation. And, Nina Turner, I know you have a response on that immigration point.

TURNER: Yes, I do.

O`DONNELL: But we are out of time for tonight. Thank you both. Barney Frank and Nina Turner.

FRANK: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: I really appreciate you being with us tonight.

TURNER: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

FRANK: Senator, we have got to keep --

O`DONNELL: Coming up, a special last word about what was happening in America at this very hour on this day in 1968, the day Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated.



O`DONNELL: Governors in California and New York signed bills today raising the minimum wage in both states to $15 an hour gradually over a few years. The raise passed in California without a single republican vote.

Up next, 2016 has been a very strange campaign year. But, the most chaotic and dramatic and tragic presidential campaign year was 1968. That is next.


O`DONNELL: And, now tonight`s "Last Word." On this day, April 4th in 1968, Martin Luther King Jr. spent the day at the Lorraine Motel in Memphis in a series of planning meetings for his next march on Washington.

At 6:00 p.m., he walked into the courtyard to greet some friends and was struck down by a single shot from an assassin`s rifle. An hour later at St. Joseph`s hospital, he was pronounced dead.

Word spread more slowly in those days when no one had phones in their pockets. And, when presidential candidate Robert Kennedy stepped up to speak at a campaign event in Indianapolis about an hour later, most people there did not know what had happened in Memphis.

Richard Lugar was then the Republican Mayor of Indianapolis, and like all big city mayors he was worried about the possibility of rioting that night as word of the assassination spread. He told Senator Kennedy that he could not guarantee his safety at the planned campaign event in the heart of the black community at 17th and Broadway.

The senator decided to go to the event without any police protection. When Bobby Kennedy climbed up on the back of a flatbed truck and looked out over the microphone, he saw a happy crowd of African-American supporters holding up Kennedy signs. And, he realized, they did not yet know the terrible news of the night.


ROBERT F. KENNEDY, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Do they know about Martin Luther King?


KENNEDY: Ladies and gentlemen. I am only going to talk to you just for a minute or so this evening because I have some very sad news for all of you. Could you lower those signs, please? I have some very sad news for all of you, and I think sad news for all of our fellow citizens and people who love peace all over the world. And, that is that Martin Luther King was shot and was killed tonight in Memphis.

Martin Luther King dedicated his life to love and to justice between fellow human beings. He died in the cause of that effort. For those of you who are black and are tempted to be filled with hatred and mistrust of the injustice of such an act, against all white people.

I would only say that I can also feel in my own heart the same kind of feeling. I had a member of my family killed, but he was killed by a white man. So, we have to make an effort in the United States. We have to make an effort to understand, to get beyond or go beyond these rather difficult times.

My favorite poem -- my favorite poet was Aeschylus. He once wrote, "Even in our sleep pain which cannot forget, falls drop by drop upon the heart until in our own despair against our will comes wisdom through the awful grace of God."

What we need in the United States is not division. What we need in the United States is not hatred. What we need in the United States is not violence and lawlessness, but is love and wisdom and compassion toward one another. And, a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or whether they be black.

So, I ask you tonight, to return home, to say a prayer for the family of Martin Luther King. Yes, it is true. But more importantly, to say a prayer for our own country, which all of us love. A prayer for understanding and that compassion of which I spoke.

The vast majority of white people and the vast majority of black people in this country want to live together, want to improve the quality of our life, and want justice for all human beings that abide in our land. And, dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago, to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world. Let us dedicate ourselves to that.


O`DONNELL: Tens of thousands of people were arrested. Thousands were injured. Dozens were killed in rioting that began that night in cities all over America. Indianapolis was not one of them. Two months and two days later, on the night that he won the California primary, Bobby Kennedy was assassinated.