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The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 08/11/15

Guests: Tim Pawlenty, Eugene Joseph Dionne, Jonathan Allen, ClaireMcCaskill, Lincoln Chafee, Tim Pawlenty, Antonio French

ARI MELBER, MSNBC: A new recording of an important speech by Martin Luther King Junior, that is easily by far the best new thing in the world today. That is our show. Now, it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening, Lawrence. LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Good evening Ari, that was truly amazing to hear. Thanks for that. MELBER: Thank you. O`DONNELL: Well, tonight, Jeb Bush just gave a speech in which he said when he becomes president he may well send more troops to Iraq to finish the job that his brother started. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEB BUSH, FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: To really grasp what the next president will face, we have to look candidly at a few policies. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a big night and a big speech for Jeb Bush. BUSH: The Islamic State and its followers are asymmetric threat. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor Bush is trying to wage his campaign on issues of substance. DONALD TRUMP, CHAIRMAN & PRESIDENT, THE TRUMP ORGANIZATIONS & FOUNDER, TRUMP ENTERTAINMENT RESORTS: I watched Jeb Bush give the worst answer the other day. Jeb`s answer the other day on women`s health issues is a disaster for him. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you focus in on Trump, you get involved in the clown car. TRUMP: Look at the polls, I can only go by the polls. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A new Suffolk University survey indicates that he is still ahead in Iowa. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the campaign that is not a campaign. SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: Because someone can stand up and say you`re stupid and you`re ugly, does not equate with a vision for the country. TRUMP: I am the most fabulous whiner, I do whine because I want to win. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trump remains on top after the debate. TRUMP: There should have been 2 million people watching, they had 24 million people. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was fantastic, the ratings were huge. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The best reality show on television. TRUMP: Who do you think they`re watching, Jeb Bush? I don`t think so. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Tonight, at the Reagan Library in California and a major foreign policy speech, Jeb Bush confronted the biggest weakness of his presidential campaign. His brotherly connection to what even Jeb Bush acknowledges is the war that never should have happened. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BUSH: No leader or policymaker involved will claim to have gotten everything right in the region, Iraq especially. Yet, in a long experience that includes failures of intelligence and military setbacks, one moment stands out in memory as the turning point we had all been waiting for, and that was the surge of military and diplomatic operations that turned events toward victory. It was a success, brilliant, heroic and costly. And this nation will never forget the courage and sacrifice that made it all possible. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now is former Minnesota governor and former Republican presidential candidate Tim Pawlenty, also with us, E.J. Dionne, an opinion writer for "The Washington Post" and Jonathan Allen, chief political correspondent for Governor Pawlenty, what do you make of Jeb Bush doing a big speech about Iraq tonight without ever discussing in that speech how we got in there in the first place? TIM PAWLENTY, FORMER MINNESOTA GOVERNOR: Well, first of all, Lawrence, kudos to Jeb Bush or any other candidate who actually wants to talk about issues. So, I welcome the fact that a candidate is talking about something substantive and tip of the cap to him for that. And if you`re going to talk about Iraq obviously, you got to talk about how it started and how we got there in the whole story. But he did properly focus on an inflection point which was the transition from the Bush administration to the Obama administration. The failure to leave a residual force was a consequential decision that we`re living with today in a bad way. The failure to enforce a red line in Syria was a consequential decision. So it`s fair to call out those very important decisions, wrong decisions by this administration. O`DONNELL: E. J. Dionne, your reaction to the speech tonight? EUGENE JOSEPH DIONNE, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, first of all, he`s going all in, in defending his brother in the end and all in, in adopting a version of his foreign policy. I think in watching the speech tonight, you saw very different responses from Republicans and Democrats. Democrats were saying -- and I think they`re right about this. That if you look forward to November of 2016, a hawkish speech that suggests we got to send all kinds of stuff back to the Middle East won`t play well with the broader electorate. But Republicans feel very differently about this. There was a Gallup poll in June that showed 68 percent of Democrats thought the Iraq war was a mistake. But only 31 percent of Republicans thought that. So, then I think Jeb sees this as a way of looking presidential to Republicans and looking like a tough hawk to Republicans and he thinks that`s a way to come out of a kind of flat situation that he`s been in the polls. O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what his Iraq plan is now. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BUSH: Let`s start with Iraq, in the five broad actions, I would take as president to help remove the threat from that country. First, we must support the Iraqi forces, which right now have the will to win but not the means. Second, we must give these forces the consistent advantage of American air power. Third, we must make a better use of the limited forces we have by giving them a greater range of action. Right now, we have around 3,500 soldiers and Marines in Iraq, and more may well be needed. We do not need and our friends don`t ask for a major commitment of American combat forces. But what we do need is to convey that we`re serious, that we`re determined to help local forces take back their country. Fourth, we should provide more support to the Kurds, giving them decisive military power against ISIS. (APPLAUSE) (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Jonathan Allen, he kind of crawled up to that issue of how many more troops do we need? You have Lindsey Graham being very specific about this, you know, saying we definitely need more and getting into real numbers. But the closest he came there is to say, we may well need more to do the job right. JONATHAN ALLEN, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, VOX.COM: Yes, the American public is not going to support a major ground war in Iraq again, at least not at this point. And I think, you know, he has said before that he wants to be willing to lose the primary to win the general. I actually think the message he was -- E.J. was saying is actually really much aimed at the primary, is sounding tough. I`m not sure that his plan is actually all that different right now from what President Obama has done or has at least thought about in terms of American planes. Obviously talking about something different there. But what Jeb Bush is failing to do is say the eight words that would matter most, which are my father was right, my brother was wrong. O`DONNELL: Tim Pawlenty, how do you suppose that would play in the Republican primary, my father was right, my brother was wrong? PAWLENTY: Well, that can be interpreted a number of different ways, Lawrence, but -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- PAWLENTY: You know, this speech -- ALLEN: About Iraq, about Iraq -- PAWLENTY: Yes -- O`DONNELL: About Iraq, yes. PAWLENTY: You know, the President took out all the troops in Iraq and then he put 3,500 back in. And what Jeb outlined tonight, those five steps that you just played, those are reasonable steps. Look, this president, this commander-in-chief said it is the mission of the United States to defeat and destroy ISIS, and that is not happening currently. And so you`re going to have to change and upgrade the tactics and the success and Jeb has outlined the plan to do that. And those are reasonable steps. And if you read the speech as I did, he`s not talking about major combat troops on the ground. He`s talking about spotters so that the air attacks can be more precise and more timely. He`s talking about equipping the Kurds, he`s talking about equipping Sunnis and having perhaps another Sunni re-awakening. Working with the Iraqis, and so, those are reasonable steps if you`re going to try to defeat and destroy ISIS in Iraq. O`DONNELL: E.J. Dionne, it`s one of those things in the age of Trump where when you`re listening to or watching a Jeb Bush speech, you can`t keep Trump out of your mind. And as you watch this, this was, as Tim Pawlenty says, you know, a serious speech by a serious candidate. You can disagree with factual points and you can disagree with a lot of ideas that he has going forward. But it was a -- it was a very seriously composed and delivered speech, just nothing like what Donald Trump says about Iraq or ISIS or any of these issues. DIONNE: Well, you can do a wonderful montage of Trump`s virtually substanceless speech today right up against the Bush speech. And I do agree with Governor Pawlenty on one thing, which is, it is good to hear candidates give serious speeches. Hillary Clinton gave a serious speech about student loans this week, it got almost no attention. But the -- what was interesting watching Twitter tonight is that people are almost acting as if it were the general election. And you know, really going after or defending Jeb`s speech. I think one of the things you`re seeing in this campaign is that, both Jeb and Hillary think they`re better off arguing with each other than with any of the people they`re running against in the primary. Hoping that, that creates the sense that they are the inevitable nominees because they both been going at each other pretty hard the last week. O`DONNELL: We`ve got a new Suffolk University poll tonight of Iowa. This is an Iowa poll showing Donald Trump now at 17 in Iowa. Scott Walker at 12, Rubio, 10, Carson, 9, Cruz, 7, Fiorina, 7, and Jeb Bush way down there now in Iowa at 5. Jonathan Allen, that is -- how does that hit the Bush campaign tonight? ALLEN: I think it`s got to be pretty bad news for them. And I think they should, obviously want to wait for multiple polls, make sure it`s not an outlier. But they should start thinking about either their strategy in Iowa, or having a strategy outside of Iowa work. The Iowa voters -- and I think Governor Pawlenty can speak to this pretty well. It`s a -- it`s a conservative group in the Republican primary, I don`t think that Jeb Bush distinguished himself as particularly conservative on the debate stage last Thursday and I think you`re seeing some fallout from that. O`DONNELL: And -- DIONNE: And Lawrence -- O`DONNELL: Go ahead -- DIONNE: Can I just say there`s another poll out that shows Jeb second to Trump in New Hampshire. I think Jeb is in the end going to give -- largely give up on Iowa. He`s been very weak there, he`s got to contend for New Hampshire, but that New Hampshire poll also showed Kasich up to 12 percent. And so, in New Hampshire, Kasich is chipping away from potential Jeb Bush votes. O`DONNELL: Tim Pawlenty, what is Jeb Bush`s move at this point? PAWLENTY: Well, I don`t think he is going to play particularly well in Iowa. He`s going to have to put a lot of chips down on New Hampshire, but that`s the -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- PAWLENTY: Same strategy that Kasich has, that -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- PAWLENTY: Chris Christie has -- (CROSSTALK) O`DONNELL: Everyone is begging on New Hampshire now -- PAWLENTY: And then you go down to the southeast, the so-called SEC primary and that`s -- those are conservative states, so Jeb is going to have to find another gear here pretty quickly. He`s got enough money to play out his hand and hopefully watch some other things develop in this race that might help him. Being steady is one thing, but it`s not going to get you the nomination or the presidency. So, he`s going to have to find another gear, he`s got it in him and he`s got time. So, I think he can do it, but it`s not going to happen probably in Iowa. O`DONNELL: Jonathan Allen, have we seen Jeb Bush back to the wall in a campaign before? ALLEN: Only when he lost for governor the first time. O`DONNELL: Yes -- ALLEN: I mean, this is somebody who hasn`t really taken a punch and come back from it. You know, the old story used to be that Jeb Bush was the better brother, the better campaigner, the better to be president and George Bush had slipped in because Jeb had lost in Florida. I think what we`re seeing on the campaign trail is that, George W. Bush was a much better campaigner than Jeb, and we haven`t seen that fight from him yet. He doesn`t have that energy, we saw on the debate stage, he looked a little nervous first time on the national debate stage like that. And I think he`s going to have to find it in him to really want it. We haven`t seen that from him yet. O`DONNELL: Jonathan Allen and E.J. Dionne, thanks for joining us tonight. And Governor -- DIONNE: Good to be with you -- O`DONNELL: Pawlenty is going to hang around and we`re going to discuss one of our favorite subjects, socialism. A subject we didn`t finish discussing last week on this program. Also coming up, Donald Trump says no presidential candidate will be better on women`s issues than Donald Trump. Senator Claire McCaskill who actually is a woman will join us to discuss that and other things. Also, Democratic candidate for president Lincoln Chafee will be here and later authorities in Ferguson released new surveillance video today showing the scene just before police shot an 18-year-old in Ferguson late Sunday night. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: Last night, I was trying to think of who was it? What Republican voice did I hear say to -- on television to Donald Trump that it`s not OK to say those words about Rosie O`Donnell either. All the coverage seems to be allowing Donald Trump to pretend it`s perfectly OK to say anything you want about Rosie O`Donnell. It was Matthew Dowd who was on "This Week" with George Stephanopoulos and here is what he said. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MATTHEW DOWD, POLITICAL CONSULTANT: I think the biggest mistake the Republicans on that stage made dealing with Donald Trump is, somebody should have stood up and taken him on the women`s issues. This shouldn`t be about, oh, don`t attack Megyn Kelly, this should be about don`t attack Rosie O`Donnell, don`t attack Michelle Obama, don`t attack Wendy Davis in Texas. This is not just like defend your friends, they should have stood -- somebody should have stood up, not waited two days later and say, oh, by the way Donald Trump shouldn`t have done that. On that stage, instead of traditional value of Republicans or people should be respect of women -- (CROSSTALK) (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: We`re going to do great with the women vote. I will be great on women`s health issues. I cherish women and I will be great on women`s health issues. Believe me. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now, one of those women Donald Trump cherishes, the author of the new book -- SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D), MISSOURI: Oh, my goodness -- O`DONNELL: "Plenty Ladylike", Claire McCaskill, the Democratic Senator from Missouri -- well, there we go. I mean, there is a -- there`s a perfectly good campaign slogan, "I cherish women". MCCASKILL: I cherish -- a couple of times, he said "the women". O`DONNELL: He may burst into song with that, something -- MCCASKILL: We may -- we may end up with buying -- O`DONNELL: You know, he reminds me of someone. He reminds me of a guy I think you might remember. Let`s take a look at this guy. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TODD AKIN, FORMER CONGRESSMAN: If it`s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: That was your opponent -- MCCASKILL: Yes -- O`DONNELL: In your last Senate election and it turns out, you -- we discovered in your book -- this is one of these great inside politics stories that you were rooting for him to get that Republican nomination so you could run against him. MCCASKILL: Rooting for him, running ads for him, spending millions of dollars for him, polling in the Republican primary. O`DONNELL: How did you run an ad for him? MCCASKILL: We polled to see what Republican voters liked most about him. And then we put that in ad, paid for by me. I approved this message but it said he is too conservative for Missouri because of A, B, C and D. And first, it was coming from me -- O`DONNELL: Right -- MCCASKILL: Which the Republican primary voters -- if I think he is too conservative as far as they`re concerned, they thought he probably was perfect. And we put the things in the ad that we knew the Republican primary voters were most interested in about him. And he didn`t have much money. We ended up spending more for him than he`d spent in the entire primary from my campaign and it worked in -- O`DONNELL: I remember that ad. Now, so, this would be like Hillary Clinton might be able to push up Jeb Bush`s numbers by running an ad right now, saying he is too conservative, paid for by Hillary Clinton. MCCASKILL: That`s possible, although I`m not sure that she could pull that off. O`DONNELL: Might not work in -- might not work in Trump world. MCCASKILL: Might not work in -- O`DONNELL: So motor-mouth McCaskill -- MCCASKILL: Yes -- O`DONNELL: That`s what your name is on this show from now on -- MCCASKILL: Yes -- O`DONNELL: I learned that in the book, you got that nickname in school? MCCASKILL: In school when I was young and the title of the book became -- O`DONNELL: Could the -- because talking too much -- MCCASKILL: Talking too much, talking quickly, talking loudly, being opinionated and I had a teacher tell me -- (CROSSTALK) O`DONNELL: It turns out there`s an occupation for that -- MCCASKILL: That`s true -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- MCCASKILL: I had a teacher tell me that if I didn`t quit talking so much, boys weren`t going to like me, that it wasn`t lady-like. And then, after the debate with Todd Akin in 2012, he told the press that I wasn`t lady-like. And that`s where the title comes from. I`m -- O`DONNELL: This is -- MCCASKILL: I want women to be ambitious -- O`DONNELL: And it`s so clear in here the prep you had for Todd Akin. He was not the worst guy you encountered in government. There is -- I`ve been trying to figure out how I refer to some of the stories in this book. It`s 10:00 p.m., I can -- there`s a kneepad story in this book. Can you -- MCCASKILL: Right -- O`DONNELL: Tell it clean enough for -- MCCASKILL: Sure -- O`DONNELL: Right -- MCCASKILL: I went up to the speaker of the house, I was a brand new state legislator in my 20s, single and I asked him for -- of the dais of the house. I walked up to the dais and asked him if he could help me get my bill out - - the committee, my first bill out of committee, and he looked at me and he said Claire, did you bring your kneepads? And he thought that was hysterically funny and I tried to pretend like I thought it was funny and obviously I didn`t think it was funny. I filed it away and it made me more determined to work around some of the obstacles I faced and try to have a sense of humor. I`m not sure I handled it right because I didn`t typically confront -- O`DONNELL: Yes, you didn`t confront him on it -- MCCASKILL: Yes -- O`DONNELL: Right -- MCCASKILL: And maybe I should have, but I was so anxious to succeed and be effective so that I could work around them and hopefully get hired by my bosses for a bigger job. And as it turned out, that worked out. O`DONNELL: The -- you`ve endorsed Hillary Clinton -- MCCASKILL: I have -- O`DONNELL: In this race. There`s a fascinating story in the book about your endorsing of Barack Obama against Hillary Clinton eight years ago. And it`s all about your daughter Maddie(ph). You said, "my family had been putting me on the spot about endorsing Obama, particularly my daughter Maddie(ph). She got up, right in my face and said, I don`t know how you can look yourself in the mirror in the morning. All my life you told me you`ll do - - you have to do what you do because you want to make a difference. The only reason that you`re not publicly endorsing this man is because you are worried about your own political skin." And you tell the story that you slept on it, you realized she was right and you endorsed -- you called David Axelrod the next day. What was it that you were worried about your own political skin? And was that a worry you had about retribution from the Clintons? MCCASKILL: It was more about women supporters. You know, there were so many women. Whether it`s Ellen Malcolm who had been -- O`DONNELL: Sure -- MCCASKILL: Amazingly supportive of me and many campaigns at her great organization that continues to this day is a power house, Emily`s List. Women all over the country who had helped me get elected to the Senate, women in my state that I had worked with for so many years, most of them were all in for Hillary Clinton. And I knew I would get a backlash and I knew it would be a lasting one. So, I was -- I had trepidation about that, more so than the Clintons directly. You know, I think that this idea that they are vindictive, and I think some of that is exaggerated. They have been very cordial and kind to me and I look forward to working as hard for her as I did for Barack Obama to make sure she gets elected for president. O`DONNELL: And yes, I think the thing of senators don`t quite get about this is, when -- you can make a political choice where you end up in opposition to someone, but if you`re all going to stay in politics, that person is going to need you again someday. And -- MCCASKILL: Right -- O`DONNELL: When you come across and deliver later, it`s -- all these things are forgotten. There is news on the Hillary Clinton e-mail server front tonight. There is this -- the -- her team is saying that they may be handing over the private e-mail server, Hillary Clinton is going to turn over the server now. This story, it turns out, is lasting longer than I think people anticipated. The server may or may not have things on it that advance the story. What is your advice to Hillary Clinton as a candidate in dealing with this? MCCASKILL: I`d push as much to the public as quickly as possible. I do not think that there is a smoking gun here. I think in all likelihood, she was using her personal e-mail because at the time it was legal and also because she had experience with people pawing through her e-mails for personal information. Whether it was a wedding of her daughter or the illness of her mother, I think she felt fairly protective about some of her personal information. Was trying to figure out a way to officially protect personal information by -- and also respect government information. So, I don`t think that there is anything here that is going to be, you know, oh, my gosh, she was trying to sneak secrets to the Chinese. I really don`t know -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- MCCASKILL: What the allegation is here. Well, you know, what was her motive? You know, was she trying to undo the United States of America, really? O`DONNELL: But what is peculiar that if they`re handing over the server now and there were calls to hand over the server months ago, we could have skipped this whole period of months and months and months about where is the server? MCCASKILL: Well, she`s admitted she doesn`t think she`s handled this correctly, or you know, she has second thoughts about the way she`s handled the whole thing. But she`s coming to testify again. She`s been in front of a very antagonistic Congress numerous times. She is coming back again. She`s released 55,000 pages of e-mails and now if her server comes hopefully, the American people will begin to figure out that this is a large part of political attack -- O`DONNELL: Your candidate for president is enthusiastically in favor of the deal President Obama has struck with Iran. Your future leader of the Senate, Chuck Schumer, the leader of your party in the Senate, everyone anticipates he will be, has now opposed the president on this deal, where are you? MCCASKILL: I am calling the countries that hold the money. I know the deal is not perfect but I want to know what the new status quo is going to look like if we walk away. The countries that hold the money are not in this deal. It`s Japan, South Korea, India, China, China is in the deal. I`m calling those countries and I want them to tell me if we walk away from this deal, will you still respect the secondary sanctions of the United States? Or is Iran going to get this money anyway? I think that`s a really important thing to figure out before I make up my mind. O`DONNELL: And lastly, on -- you represent Missouri, the troubles in Ferguson over the weekend, the one year anniversary mark of the -- what occurred there last year. What`s your reaction to what`s going on there now and tonight? MCCASKILL: By and large, we have had peaceful protests. We had an outbreak of criminal activity on the periphery of the protests that resulted in the shooting of a young man because he was shooting at police. But by and large, this has been a peaceful protest, and -- by the way, we`ve made some progress in Ferguson. We`ve got a long way to go. But we`ve elected more African-Americans to the city council, we have an African-American leading the Police Department. We`ve reformed the municipal court, we`ve got job training programs going on, we`ve got housing programs going on. We are really trying as a community to come together and get past this narrative of it`s the police versus the protesters. O`DONNELL: Senator Claire McCaskill, the author of my new favorite book about a woman`s life in politics "Plenty Ladylike". MCCASKILL: Can you tell by that book I`m not running for president? (LAUGHTER) O`DONNELL: I -- there`s stuff in here you can`t say. There is just stuff -- MCCASKILL: It`s true -- O`DONNELL: In here you cannot talk about on a family program. Thank you very much -- MCCASKILL: Shake -- O`DONNELL: And really -- MCCASKILL: Thanks, Lawrence -- O`DONNELL: Appreciate it coming in -- MCCASKILL: Good to see you -- O`DONNELL: Thank you -- MCCASKILL: Thank you. O`DONNELL: Coming up, as Republicans call Bernie Sanders a socialist, we will take a look at which Republican candidates are doing socialist things themselves. But first, Democratic candidate for president Lincoln Chafee will join us next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MARTIN O`MALLEY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Shame on us as a party if the DNC tries to limit debate and prevents us from being able to put forward a better path for our people that will make the economy work for all of us again. So I believe we need more debates, not fewer debates. And I think it is outrageous actually that the DNC would try to make this process decidedly un-Democratic. (END VIDEO CLIP) LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC ANCHOR: That`s former Maryland governor, Martin O`Malley, Democratic candidate for president. Joining us now is another Democratic candidate for president, former senator and governor of Rhode Island, Lincoln Chaffey. What is your reaction to this six-debate schedule? LINCOLN CHAFEE (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`m OK with it. There are going to be many opportunities for us to get together and talk about the issues. We were in Des Moines, Iowa, the five of us -- only five of us on the Democratic side on the stage and we`re -- most of us are going to be back in Iowa next week talking about the issues. Not necessarily debate format. So I`m OK with the six that they scheduled and then there`ll be many other forums where we will get together and talk about the issues. O`DONNELL: It sounds like -- CHAFEE: Not necessarily a debate format. O`DONNELL: Martin O`Malley has a campaign lawyer who`s talking about a legal challenge to it saying that there is Federal Elections Commission rules that say that the party cannot prevent you from participating in other things. There`s this deal on the debates where you all say, OK, we won`t -- we promise we won`t participate in anything else. And if you do they`ll exclude you from their big debates. They`re saying that`s actually against the law. CHAFEE: We`ll let the lawyers figure that out. O`DONNELL: Yes. CHAFEE: But I know that Governor O`Malley has been in politics a long time. And my last run for governor I think we had just a few debate but I think we have 30 opportunities to get together, all the candidate forums as they`re called, talking about the particular issue that one advocacy group has in front of us. So I think Governor O`Malley knows there`ll be plenty of chances for us to get together. O`DONNELL: I want to listen to what Chuck Schumer, senior senator from New York, said about the Iran deal. As we all know he was -- at least prior to this -- locked in as the next Democratic leader of the United States Senate. Let`s listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: This deal has too many flaws to support. And therefore, I must oppose it. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: What`s your response to that? CHAFEE: Well, just as President Obama said so many advocates for the original invasion of Iraq, the mistake, the colossal mistake we made are now opposing what I consider and President Obama considers the fix to the mistake we made back in 2002 and 2003 when we invaded Iraq. And the vote - - Senator Schumer voted for the war, I did not. And now we have to fix it. And having the Shia and the Iranians come together with the help of the Chinese and the Russians and the Europeans who crafted the deal with the Americans so important to deescalating the chaos that the advocates the war caused in the Middle East. O`DONNELL: Talk about what it`s like -- CHAFEE: A terrific mess with the Kurds, and the Turks, and the Shia and the Sunnis, all because of that huge mistake we made. Now we have to try and fix it with those people`s help that I mentioned, the Iranians, Chinese, Russians, Europeans. O`DONNELL: I`m very interested in insights you might have about making governing decisions. In the Senate you had to make a decision about this Iraq war and about this vote. You were under all the same pressures everyone else was. You were getting -- you were hearing all of what turned out to be a lot of the false information that everyone was. You were sorting -- how did you sort that information? How did you come to your vote? And what does it tell you about how to make governing decisions in the White House? CHAFEE: Well, as you know, as a Republican back then, and I had supported Governor Bush in his campaign for the presidency. And he ran as a uniter, not a divider, we`ll have a humble foreign policy, we`re going to regulate carbon dioxide. When they got in they did the opposite. And so it`s a character issue. I didn`t trust them. I didn`t trust them. And they came in with big tax cut, arrogant with the world, and then when they`re talking about weapons of mass destruction I had already learned not to trust them because they went back on their campaign promises. And so I wanted to know, are there really -- is there really evidence of weapons of mass destruction? So I took the effort to go to the CIA, on my own, alone, no staff. And met with about 20 analysts and said, I have to vote on this in about three weeks, show me everything you have at the CIA in Langley, and it was with over an hour-long meeting even they could -- they were emphatic about it look, Senator, it`s obvious this biological chemical, they didn`t -- there was no enthusiasm for what they were showing me. And that -- not only the bad evidence they were showing me but the lack of body language and enthusiasm, I knew this was all a hoax. There`s another reason, but it`s certainly wasn`t WMD. And the Downing Street memo and other evidence that`s come out since supports that. O`DONNELL: Yes. CHAFEE: There was another -- O`DONNELL: In your experience, how many senators bring that kind of initiative to a question like that? CHAFEE: Not enough. O`DONNELL: And they`ll go to Langley on their own. I can tell you I`ve never heard of it. CHAFEE: Yes. You were in the Senate a long time. O`DONNELL: Yes. CHAFEE: I take my work seriously, especially war. And I came through the Vietnam era and to think we`re going to -- getting back into another quagmire in all the veteran issues, not only the costs and the deaths but the veterans, the post traumatic stress that go on for decades, and we kind of just finished that with the Vietnam era, now we`re back in. So I wanted to do my due diligence and work very, very carefully to make a good decision. O`DONNELL: We are out of -- CHAFEE: Now we`re going forward, though. That`s what`s important. That was a mistake, now we have to fix it. And the Iran deal -- O`DONNELL: That will be -- that will be your last campaign word tonight. Thank you very much for joining us. CHAFEE: Thank you, Lawrence. O`DONNELL: Lincoln Chafee, we really appreciate it. And we`ll have you back. You`re the only one apparently other than Hillary Clinton who thinks the debate schedule is OK. All right. We`ll bring you back here. Coming up, Bernie Sanders sparking new conversations about socialism. Former Republican candidate for president Tim Pawlenty and I will finish our conversation about socialism that we started here last week. And later, police in Arlington, Texas, made an announcement about the officer who shot and killed this unarmed teenager at a car dealership there late last week. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: The chief of police in Arlington, Texas, has fired the police officer who shot and killed an unarmed 19-year-old man during a break-in at a car dealership on Friday. The police were called to the dealership after Christian Taylor allegedly kicked in the windshield of a car and then crashed his jeep into the dealership showroom. Police say they found Christian Taylor roaming inside the dealership and that he refused police orders to get on the ground and told an officer he was there to steal a car. Police say Officer Brad Miller, a recruit who is still undergoing supervised field training, entered the building alone without telling other officers. The chief said that decision put other officers at risk. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WILL JOHNSON, ARLINGTON, TEXAS, CHIEF OF POLICE: I have serious concerns as to the rationale articulated for the use of deadly force in this incident. These concerns, however, are best addressed through the criminal investigation process. However, based on a preponderance of the evidence available to me and the facts revealed by the investigative team, I have decided to terminate Officer Miller`s employment with the Arlington Police Department for exercising poor judgment. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Up next, good socialism versus bad socialism. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: On the ballot I`m an independent and if you look at C-SPAN they will say independent, one vote, that`s me. But philosophically, you know, I am a Democratic socialist. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Bernie Sanders has been attacked for being a socialist by both Democrats and Republicans who don`t seem to realize that they are socialists, too, as "Newsweek" announced to the country six weeks ago with this cover. "We are All Socialists Now." By which "Newsweek" meant that most of what the federal government does now is fund and administer socialist programs, such as Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Those programs alone account for a good half of the federal budget and then of course at the time of the "Newsweek" cover there was the federal government bank bailout which was a major socialist intervention in the affairs of Wall Street, the private sector, in an attempt to do everything possible to avoid a banking disaster. And as I`ve said many times on this program, there is good socialism and bad socialism and America`s absolute worst socialism is, of course, sports socialism in which state and local governments hand over massive subsidies to billionaires, the billionaire owners of sports teams, to build new playgrounds for them where they will then employ quarterbacks making $26 million a year and short stops making $17 million a year. The latest egregious example of sports socialism is being visited upon us by someone who has no idea that he is a socialist. Tomorrow, Wisconsin`s governor Scott Walker will officially sign away $400 million of Wisconsin taxpayer money so that the Milwaukee Bucks can play in a new arena. Needless to say, the owners of the Bucks are contributors to Scott Walker`s presidential campaign and his super PAC. Economists have studied the effects of building new stadiums around the country and have not been able to find any economic benefits, except to the billionaire owners of sports teams and the millionaire players they employ. Back with us is former Republican governor of Minnesota, Tim Pawlenty. Governor Pawlenty, last week we sort of got side tracked into a discussion of socialism sparked by Bernie Sanders. I think that conversation is going to keep coming up again and again as long as we have a self-proclaimed socialist candidate for president out there. And so I just want to take a little more time, give you a little more air on this. And what do you make of this big socialist giveaway that Scott Walker is embarking on in the pro sports arena? TIM PAWLENTY (R), FORMER MINNESOTA GOVERNOR: Well, I`ll address that, Lawrence. But let`s just start with the basics. Words have meanings. There are definitions associated with these labels. Bernie isn`t running from the label socialist, he acknowledges he is a socialist and if you go to Merriam-Webster they define socialists as somebody who supports the government controlling and owning the means of production and distribution. And the capitalists of course means the private sector does that and it`s on a continuum and there`s room in between those two with things but if you give an incentive or a subsidy, that doesn`t necessarily mean you are controlling or owning the means of production or distribution. So these words and labels have meaning. I think pro sports, there`s enough money in it to build their own stadiums, but they don`t. So there is a distorted market for sure. I built when I was governor, paid for a University of Minnesota football stadium, that is a public institution, by the way, and we allowed a local county to support our Twin Stadium, but this happens all over the country and there`s no doubt that`s government funneling money in to a private enterprise to either incentivize an account or subsidize an outcome. But that`s not the definition directly as socialism that I cited a moment ago. Bernie just says, hey, look, I`m a socialist, flat out. He doesn`t say I`m a liberal or I`m a Democrat or I`m for more government. He says I`m a socialist. O`DONNELL: Well, Social Security is a socialist program. It is a program being run by the government on purely socialist terms. It was imported from Europe, as was Medicare. These are all European socialist ideas that have taken over our government. But rather than -- PAWLENTY: We all pay for Social Security, Lawrence. I mean, the -- it is certainly a government program. O`DONNELL: Well, the thing about Social Security is many of us pay far less than we get back from Social Security and many others pay far more than they get back from Social Security so it is not doing some sort of neutral distribution at all. PAWLENTY: That`s true. That`s accurate. That`s right. O`DONNELL: But anyway, let me get back to the sports socialism thing because you actually signed the bill in Minnesota that funded the -- what is it, the Target Field where the Twins play? PAWLENTY: That`s right. That`s right. O`DONNELL: But you -- and you initially, when you were a state representative, you opposed it but then when you`re a governor you went along with one of these deals. PAWLENTY: Well, we would -- just so you know, we allowed Hennepin County to raise a tax to pay for it. It wasn`t a state thing but we authorized them to do if they wanted to. I would argue tongue and cheek, by the way, it`s not owning or controlling the means of production because the Twins haven`t produced. O`DONNELL: All right. Well, there`s that. But yes, I mean, you enacted this tax which in it of itself is kind of anti-Republican dogma. PAWLENTY: No, the county did, but I understand your point. O`DONNELL: Yes. And that money was used to fund this playground for these rich athletes and for these rich sports team owners. PAWLENTY: That`s right. But again if you accept the definition, as has long been standing that I cited earlier, government owning and controlling the means of production and distribution. The county doesn`t own, the state doesn`t own the Twins. We`re not the manager of the Twins. We don`t manage the distribution of what they do. So but -- if Bernie, if he says he`s a socialist, I mean, that -- like I said, words meaning. I think if you look at what he`s voted for and what he`s done is more in line with being a liberal Democrat. I`m not sure why he`s so willingly grabs that label. And I was trying to make the point last week, which you bristled at, that look, the country isn`t ready to elect a self-avowed socialist. That`s not, you know, necessarily a personal attack on Bernie. It`s just that socialism and the United States are not in alignment at this moment. And they`re just not. O`DONNELL: Well, as economists see it, well, there is no pure socialist state in the world. And there is no pure capitalist state in the world. They are all what we call mixed economies. They are mixes of socialism, mixes of capitalism. We mix socialism into our professional sports. We mix it into our Social Security, our health care system. And the accusation against Medicare and against Social Security when they were being voted on the Senate was that they were socialism. And that was exactly right. They -- those are socialist programs. But we`re out of time for it tonight, Governor. I`m glad we had more time to air it out. And I`d like -- PAWLENTY: Next time -- next time you can continue your defense of Richard Nixon`s policies. (LAUGHTER) O`DONNELL: The Tim Pawlenty that I`m a big fan of is that young rep -- the state rep who was opposed to using -- you said you don`t want to use state money to subsidize billionaire team owners, millionaire athletes and the privileged elite who attend games in opulent, luxury boxes. Boy, I agree with that guy. Governor Tim Pawlenty, it`s always a pleasure. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. PAWLENTY: All right, Lawrence. O`DONNELL: Thank you. Coming up, police in St. Louis have released this new video about what happened in Ferguson, Missouri, Sunday night. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: And now for the good news. Very good news. The LAST WORD picked up a new viewer last night. Joseph Michael Cramer was born one minute before the show started last night. His mother Joanne Denyeau is a producer of this program and she took her first day of maternity leave yesterday. Just in time. Joseph Michael arrived at 8 pounds, 13 ounces, and is now just 18 years away from being old enough to be counted in our audience ratings. Let`s hope he gets a Nielsen box for his 18th birthday. Now get some sleep, Joan. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: The state of emergency is still in place tonight in St. Louis County after violence in Ferguson on Sunday. The emergency order could be lifted tomorrow if things remain calm there tonight. Earlier today, St. Louis Police released surveillance video showing what they say is 18-year- old Tyrone Harris brandishing a handgun during an exchange of gunfire Sunday night. The gunfire occurred near demonstrations marking the one- year anniversary of Michael Brown`s death. Tyrone Harris was shot by police in that incident and remains in critical condition. Joining us now by phone is Antonio French, alderman of the 21st Ward in St. Louis. Alderman French, what is your reaction to that video that was released today? ALDERMAN ANTONIO FRENCH, REPRESENTATIVE, 21ST WARD ST. LOUIS: A good visual of the kind of chaos that was there. You can actually -- you know, I saw myself in the video. I was one of the folks running. There was a few gunshots first and then there were just gunshots seemingly coming from everywhere. And you can clearly see that young man holding a gun and then running forward. And probably shooting it when he gets out of frame there. But it was just chaotic. I`m glad no one else got hurt. O`DONNELL: And why were you -- why were people there in that particular spot and why were you there? FRENCH: So what had happened was that there was a protest. It became a very familiar sight from last August where the police had come out in riot gear. There was a brief confrontation between protesters and the police. Many of us tried to calm things down and diffuse the situation just to make sure no violence occurred. And after a while that crowd broke up. And some people -- and went towards north on West (INAUDIBLE) where the businesses were and kind of gathered back there. And after a while, there seemed to be some activity. So I walked down there along with some others and we actually saw one reporter coming back who had gotten beaten up and robbed and some businesses are broken into. And so I was back there blocking an open broken window to keep looters out. And then gunshots started ringing out. O`DONNELL: And there was a lot of doubt expressed by people who knew him that he could possibly have had a gun. Does this video, do you think, help to clear the air? FRENCH: Well, you know, I don`t -- I didn`t know Tyrone Harris. I don`t know what he looks like. The police say that it`s him and they have identified him in that video. But I know a lot of people had guns out there. And I know a lot of people had come to these events to use the cover of protest to commit crimes and to do violent acts and so, you know, if someone had a gun out there and was shooting, whether they were shooting at police or anybody else, there were children out there. There were people out there. And that is not the environment for a gun. And definitely he shouldn`t be shooting at people. That`s a criminal act. That`s no longer a protest. That`s a criminal act. So yes. You know, it`s unfortunate that that night was marred with violence of any kind. But, you know, we just have to move forward. O`DONNELL: Antonio French, thank you very much for joining us tonight with that eyewitness account of what happened there. Thank you very much. Chris Hayes is up next. END