Summary
Donald Trump`s legal heat rising as document scandal, January 6th probe, DOJ criminal probe, and New York City lawsuit piled up. Former Trump Aide on the former president`s legal heat. Alex Jones shows no remorse in a second defamation suit over Sandy Hook lies. WQHT Hot 97 radio host Ebro Darden joins THE BEAT with Ari Melber to talk about the January 6 Committee gearing up for the next hearing.
Transcript
ARI MELBER, MSNBC ANCHOR: Welcome to THE BEAT. I`m Ari Melber. And we begin with the legal heat.
Classified documents are a scandal. January 6th congressional probe picks back up next week. We have news on that. And then something that really upended Donald Trump`s entire business prospects in New York. And as I`ve mentioned to you, you might say, well, I feel like I`ve heard about this before, what is the deal? Well, never like this before. We are talking about something that is now an active New York case that could end the Trump Organization as it`s known along with a quarter billion in fines and penalties or more.
And then you have the federal criminal insurrection probe intensifying. I have a very special guest on that later in the hour. Coming up I have Neal Katyal to start us off. But look at this report from CNN. Trump lawyers waging what is basically a secret court fight to try to halt or stop a grand jury from getting information from his inner circle, basically blocking testimony that otherwise would be relevant, meaning the prosecutors at least want to introduce it.
And we know the context for this, those 40 new subpoenas. You have a former prosecutor on the Letitia James side saying that the business probe is basically a dealt penalty for Trump Org. So you have the insurrection and the business probe both going at Trump hard, and then that`s not the only thing going on. These are circling Trump while he has no presidential powers left. And we`ve seen that in the special master case where basically they thought it would help to have more court review, and if he were president that might be true because courts do in many ways defer to the powers of the presidency, especially in process.
If the president says, hey, national security, hey, classified, hey, I need more time, but he ain`t president anymore. Here is how the Associated Press reported it, a non-partisan wire service. Quote, "The bravado that served Trump well in the political arena is less handy in a legal realm dominated by verifiable evidence." So in that special master case, you have the very person that Trump`s legal team said they wanted now pressing him on exactly that issue of what`s verifiable. So Trump was talking about basically, you know, slandering, libeling the FBI, and saying maybe they planted evidence or something, and if they did that would be a big deal.
But in court as in real journalism you have to have some evidence for that. It can`t just be words. And so this special master that Trump wanted says, back it up. Do you have evidence for your claims that the FBI lied? Because you`re going to have to prove that in court. There`s no evidence they provided. And as you know if you watch THE BEAT, if there were evidence that law enforcement abused power, planted something or otherwise was unfair, that would be a big story. You would get it here. If it redounded to Donald Trump`s benefit, so be it.
But it`s not a story because at this point they haven`t substantiated it. Then you have what some are calling the power of positive thinking, the idea that Donald Trump or any president can secretly think something and make it true, which is one of his claims in the classification scandal, and the late-night hosts are having a field day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SETH MEYERS, LATE-NIGHT HOST: It`s officially declassified as long as you believe it`s declassified. That`s according to Trump`s newest legal adviser, Tinker Bell.
JIMMY KIMMEL, LATE-NIGHT HOST: And if Trump actually had the power to change things just by thinking about them, Don Jr. would have turned into a Big Mac 30 years ago.
TREVOR NOAH, LATE-NIGHT HOST: He couldn`t even read documents with his brain. How does this happen? Your honor, the defendant pleas jedi.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: I`m joined by U.S. acting solicitor general Neal Katyal. There are serious parts of this but some of it is funny, Neal. Obviously these are not the droids you`re looking for and shout out to Tinker Bell. Can you make sense of this for us?
NEAL KATYAL, FORMER ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL: Well, I think, Ari, we`re entering what I think historians will refer to as the scaredy cat post presidential phase. Donald Trump is facing many, many different criminal investigations and he`s running scared from all of them so he`s invoking Fifth Amendment privilege, presidential records privilege, executive privilege, attorney-client privilege, work product privilege, former presidential privilege.
I mean check your privilege, Ari. It takes on a whole new meaning with this guy. And I think one of the key lessons we can take from all of these different investigations is not just that Donald Trump breaks the law quite often, it`s just that he`s simply not very good at hiding it. And I think the lesson of this whole week, the whole thing start to finish is this is a terrible week for Donald Trump.
[18:05:01]
And it looks like the days of him receiving preferential treatment from the U.S. government, from the prosecutors, from the state governments, and, most importantly, from the courts are now appears to be over. I mean the loss in the court of appeals for the 11th Circuit, our nation`s second highest court, on this whole classified information special master thing is so telling. They destroyed them. They destroyed his arguments and they made fun of Judge Cannon`s, you know, decision. So very powerful holding for the rule of law.
MELBER: Yes, all makes sense. With regard to evidence, there`s a discussion of what else Trump might bring to the table in the special master case or that, I should say, part of the wider documents case that involves the special master review. Here is some of the videotaped conversation that Trump had with Sean Hannity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: The problem that you have is they go into rooms, they won`t let anybody near -- they wouldn`t even let them in the same building. Did they drop anything into those piles or did they do it later? There`s no chain of custody here with them.
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Wouldn`t that be to videotape potentially?
TRUMP: No, I don`t think so. I mean they`re in a room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Neal.
KATYAL: I can`t even begin to make sense of that, but the one thing I`m sure of, Ari, is that his lawyers have never said any of that, just like his lawyers have never in court said, oh, Trump declassified the documents with his mind or any other way. And that`s because these lawyers are under an oath to tell the truth or lose their license otherwise.
MELBER: Let`s pause on that because sometimes you move so quickly, right. That`s what the justices of the Supreme Court would sometimes do to you, they just have a lot more power than THE BEAT but pause on the point you`re making before you continue. You`re saying that there`s this gap between Trump saying or potentially lying about what`s declassified in public and his lawyers have never mentioned that in court. They`ve never said what their client is saying and you`re telling us why. Please unpack that a little more.
KATYAL: Yes. So Donald Trump has articulated as the defense, hey, I declassified these documents. Now that`s not a defense anyway because he`s not being charged or investigated for just classified documents. It`s taking national security documents. But even more telling, Ari, and this is what both the special master in the case, Judge Dearie, and the 11th Circuit said, is there`s this powerful gap, Trump, between what he`s saying out of court, and what his lawyers are saying in court.
In court they`ve never said, and they`ve had five different filings and they`ve never once said, oh, Trump declassified the documents. They just said oh, he has the power to do so. Nobody doubts if you`re the former -- at the time you`re president you have the power to do so. The relevant question is, were these documents that you brought to Mar-a-Lago declassified and now not national security information? And that`s what his lawyers are afraid to say. And that`s where I think Trump is in so much trouble right now. He can`t even get a lawyer to say what he is claiming his defense is.
MELBER: So let`s do a little bit of the so-called devil`s advocate on the New York case. I have shown viewers why there`s a lot of evidence in there, and he is free to respond or deny, but a lot of evidence that this was not a one-off fraud, mistake, incident, exaggeration. I do think it`s fair to say that in real estate markets around the world and especially in New York, sometimes people are exaggerating and aggressive with certain numbers.
But the James` evidence, over 200 pages, seems to suggest that this was the pattern, this was the go-to, this was how they created the false, fraudulent, to use a legal term, perception of profits they didn`t even always have. What do you say to the devil`s advocate claim, Neal, that this is old, it`s been around New York and now it`s finally just coming up one more time because Donald Trump is more of a target than he used to be, which is something that I want to be fair is not just coming from him.
There are others who may be a little bit sympathetic to him, Republicans, people who are critical of maybe the Democratic leadership of New York over the history, not obviously beyond criticism. What do you say to that view of this week`s case?
KATYAL: So two things. First of all, that New York investigation, Ari, is only one of several -- you know, Trump is facing I think five different criminal investigations. This is just one of the investigations. And this complaint this time was civil. So -- but, you know, just on its own terms what Tish James filed was devastating. It wasn`t like a couple of examples. It was 200 different examples over those 222 pages, Ari, that you are referencing. And sure, some of them are old, like, you know, but they`re so extreme. Like, you know, and sure, there`s some puffing in real estate, but he is claiming his apartment in New York is worth -- you know, is worth, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars when no property had ever sold there like that in New York. He claims that Mar-a-Lago was worth $739 million when it is worth $75 million.
[18:10:03]
And I think most importantly, Trump`s own CFO, his chief financial officer, Allen Weisselberg, has already pled guilty to 15 different felonies relating to these Trump income tax, you know, Trump Organization frauds and things like that. And that`s 15 felonies. And I don`t think that Allen Weisselberg will be the one who`s committed the most crimes here at end of the day. I think some of the examples go up until very recent times that Tish James isolated as well so there`s a long pattern. And I don`t think it`s right to just point to the 2010 stuff because she brings it all the way up and pretty close to the present.
MELBER: Fascinating. Kicking us off here. Neal Katyal, thank you. You can get more of these reports from Neak at MSNBC.com/openingarguments.
Now we turn to Sam Nunberg, a former Trump campaign adviser who also went through the legal process in the Muller probe.
Welcome back, Sam.
SAM NUNBERG, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Thanks for having me on. Thank you, Ari. Congratulations on five years.
MELBER: Thank you, Sam. Yes, we did hit five years. We`ve drawn on a lot of different people, yourself included, over those years, and that`s why I wanted to come back to you. Specifically on the fact of the Trump Org case. As you know, Sam, tons of talk out there, we go to people who have been involved or actually have been at the scene, you know things that other people don`t. And so I`m curious when you see James say that it was pattern and practice for Donald Trump, Weisselberg, and the Trump Org to mislead, misvalue or outright lie about assets, does that strike you as credible, as possible, as something that fits with your experience or not?
NUNBERG: Look, I don`t have the experience into his financials. I was around the office obviously for six careers or so.
MELBER: Yes.
NUNBERG: What I would say is, it was very strange to me that she didn`t seek injunctive relief on this. You know, she could have brought the civil suit and said he`s no longer allowed to -- or temporarily, you know, try to postpone him from doing any business. In terms of what she said about that pattern, look, you know, we could go -- I`ve been with Donald when he`s told me that he`s worth $4 billion. He`s told me he`s worth $10 billion. When I worked for him, we said at the beginning of when he announced for presidency in June of 2015, we first said he was worth around $8.6, and then suddenly unbeknownst to me a press release was released weeks later saying, no, I`m worth $10 billion.
I don`t know if there`s actually a victim here. I mean, that`s been a lot of criticism that I have been hearing in my circles is he has paid back those loans and the idea that she had to bring this in less than 90 days from the election, it doesn`t necessarily show that she was working on fairground, at least to people like me. But with that said, did he inflate assets? I have no firsthand knowledge but I`m not surprised.
MELBER: Well, you just -- you`re not surprised. A couple of things. The timing is a product of also many of the delays that were on the Trump Org side. He had to be held in civil contempt as you know to even go in and then plead the Fifth. So while I think it`s a fair question to raise any time you have a high priority, high profile case like this whether the timing is somehow being misused, if they could show evidence of that, that would be bad. But at this juncture they dragged it out as well.
As for the inflation of assets, I mean, that`s very interesting to hear you say that. Your experience, again, we`re not talking about all of the Trump Org, but unlike, say, someone who was always consistent about numbers, your experience was even on big numbers you might remember, like, are you worth 8B or 10B, you`re saying he would just move around?
NUNBERG: Yes, he would move around, and we had worked on that statement that he released before he ran. That went through the office. Obviously it wasn`t an FEC statement.
MELBER: Sure.
NUNBERG: But it was something he released in the announcement. And then he decided to release a press release saying that he was worth another $1.6 billion in less than -- less than three weeks. But I think really the issue is that for his ultimate goal, if it is to get back into the Oval Office, Ari, there`s a major difference for him politically when he`s in the Oval Office, when he`s the president, and there`s an independent counsel against him. There`s an impeachment by the Democrats.
Yes, Republicans will feel that they are being attacked as well, but there`s a deteriorating effect, in terms of the affection that voters are going to have for him vis-a-vis when he`s out of office and he is consistently under investigation. There`s a possible criminal indictments coming, it makes him less of an appealing candidate during a primary. And I do believe that it`s getting to a point --
MELBER: You`re talking about the factor where -- I mean that`s why they wanted the idea that Hillary was under a single FBI investigation, the idea shared by most political practitioners across the spectrum was that`s bad for you as a candidate. He is under several. So to your point, you think that actually ruins him if he runs in a Republican primary?
[18:15:07]
NUNBERG: Yes, I certainly do. Well, depending on what happens. I`m talking to you from West Palm Beach. I think Governor DeSantis is going to have quite a large victory. It seems to me that his opponent is out of floor and obviously doesn`t have anything of the money compared DeSantis has. And that`s really the shiny object. I mean, these things happen naturally. Donald Trump is trying to run a third time.
MELBER: Yes.
NUNBERG: For the presidential office, you know. It`s just a natural progression. Plus, I remember the day when we used to criticize the last candidate, the last nominee that lost. He lost to Biden. No matter what other people think about it --
MELBER: Right, Romney wasn`t exactly embraced by everybody. I`m only jumping in, I got 30 seconds, Sam. You mentioned being in Florida. DeSantis, you were with Trump in 2015, he was underestimated, he did get the nom, and then the electoral college. Do you think DeSantis could actually be the nominee?
NUNBERG: DeSantis is going to be the favorite. I think that you`re going to see a victory here with, you know, anywhere from five to 10 points. Donald Trump, if he declares -- I`m not so sure that he will, he`ll declare early 2023. His campaign will stall and DeSantis can probably come in next summer. I was just in Iowa, Ari, and a lot of rank-and-file voters, the ones that caucus for Ted Cruz, they`re behind DeSantis.
MELBER: Really interesting. Sam Nunberg, thank you.
We have our shortest break, 60 seconds. When we come back, real news in the midterms. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: We`re 46 days out now from the midterms. Republicans have an agenda that they`re releasing, but it looks according to some pretty vague. They want to take control from Pelosi. Republican leaders in the swing state of Pennsylvania have a plan that they are calling, let me tell you, you may have heard about this before, these contracts with America. Newt Gingrich is always trying to renew America`s contract or whatever.
Well, apparently the idea is maybe this framework could help them again. So they`re talking to conservatives. This was in a town hall-style event. And, remember, as we all know, you got to get out of primary mode when you are now 40-some days from the general election. You have everybody voting, not just your primaries, but some of the talk didn`t exactly sound like they`ve made that adjustment yet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The slow creep of critical race theory, diversity, equity and inclusion, gender identity, and allowing biological boys to enter girls` spaces and sports. These are all Marxist-style programs targeting our children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Marxism. Now, as for the meat on the bones or the proverbial contract or, in this case, I guess like a contract summary, we`ll show you Republican leaders released a one-page document. "The Post" says it`s purposely short on policy specifics, so it`s kind of a sub of pan flip but there`s discussion of inflation which as we`ve reported has been a problem for the Biden administration, and protecting freedom.
But the specifics if they went beyond the page might be bad politics because much of the GOP is running on things that are unpopular, from health care and drug price issues to the backlash to Roe, you have also a secret item that was accidentally published. This was a version of the GOP blueprint. Interesting here that they note the document in that material goes after prescription drug reform and would open the door to something that many oppose, including in the middle and on some of the right, especially among seniors, which is cutting Social Security and Medicare.
The new blueprint also does not mention what one of the most prominent Trump defenders have been pushing, a national abortion ban. That`s what Lindsey Graham has been talking about. Biden was speaking to Democrats today and he brought up this agenda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The commitment to America.
[18:20:02]
That`s a thin series of policy goals with little or no detail. Already 166 House Republicans have signed on to a bill that would ban abortion nationwide. I don`t believe the MAGA Republicans have a clue about the power of American women. Let me tell you something. They`re about to find out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The president sounding downright confident there. And as we know from covering politics, you can`t predict a thing. 40-plus days is a lifetime. But I will tell you this, we have been around enough campaigns to know if you define the issues, well, you may go a lot farther. The president is defining some of these issues you just heard and, strangely, Republicans seem to be falling into the same conversation.
They`re not talking as much about, say, the inflation I mentioned or the market jitters today, which are exactly the things that might bedevil Joe Biden, but as mentioned they might just be stuck in primary mode. We have a special guest on set with me, the great Joan Walsh, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:25:41]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: With a straight face, Kevin McCarthy says that MAGA Republican will restore faith in our elections. As we say in my faith, bless me, Father, for I have sinned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Bless us all. I`m joined by "The Nation`s" Joan Walsh. Good to see you.
JOAN WALSH, THE NATION CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you, too.
MELBER: You see the president there suggesting that perhaps Kevin McCarthy is not credible.
WALSH: Is perhaps not telling the truth.
MELBER: The whole story about election protection. Was it not St. Augustine who said, Father, deliver me from sin, just not yet?
WALSH: Just not yet, yes. Just, you know, December perhaps.
MELBER: Yes, just through the election.
WALSH: You know, that would be fine.
MELBER: The president making a serious point in a catchy way. What do you think about it?
WALSH: Well, it`s my faith, too. So I totally get it. And I thought he was really on his game today. You know, I really thought that Biden, he is enjoying this. I mean they are just making it so easy for him. His approval rates are climbing and they just keep telling these ridiculous lies and we know it, and we can call them out on it. You know, it`s just -- it`s a vague agenda but it really will ban abortion basically nationwide.
You know, we know what they`re trying to do. They really are trying to pull back Social Security and Medicare, and who leads, Ari? Who leads with, we really want to do away with this prescription drug reform because the seniors, the people who vote, they don`t want that. They don`t want to have their drugs be cheaper, you know. It`s just like who is telling them --
MELBER: Yes.
WALSH: -- what to do?
MELBER: As I always emphasize, there are some issues that are difficult and you really try to understand the good faith view on the other side.
WALSH: Yes.
MELBER: And then there are others that are just the rank corruption, in this case of Republican politicians who are saying, you should pay more for medical drugs you need --
WALSH: Right.
MELBER: -- so that big pharma can be more profitable. Hard for me to see where that`s a campaign message.
WALSH: I don`t know either. And so I really do, I find it very interesting because it`s a terrible campaign message, obviously we know. And I would think even -- I mean I know even Republican seniors are like, we don`t want this. So I don`t know what they`re doing. I really don`t know what has happened to them. They`re so -- you know, they`ve been slapped around by Trump and now they`re trying to come back to issues, but the issues are terrible. So, you know, I don`t want to -- I`m not getting over confident for the Democrats. It will be a tough November, but this week has been like, really?
MELBER: Well, you mentioned this week. We have pulled together some of the sound from this week.
WALSH: Thank you.
MELBER: So you don`t have to -- yes, you`re welcome. You don`t have to be watch it all. You don`t have to go to C-Span and do the whole thing. You can if you wanted. But here`s some of what we`re hearing from some of these Republican candidates in the midterms. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): These Democratic policies has already taken one month of your wages. We`re going to repeal 87,000 IRS agendas. We can build an education system that has a parents` bill of rights. We should ensure women only compete in women`s sports.
REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): We see crime skyrocketing. That is a direct result of Democrats.
REP. STEVE SCALISE (R-LA): A House Republican majority will not be afraid to hold China accountable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And so at a time when there`s this political opportunity, and I mentioned this before, the economy is a real thing, a lot of people have to just deal with. We haven`t gotten a full pandemic recovery. We know that.
WALSH: Right.
MELBER: But on the politics, you know, I`ll call it as I see it, the market jitters, the inflation, these problems, you usually go after the incumbent with this stuff. There seems to be a real lack of message discipline on the right, or maybe they are falling into Biden`s trap that he set well to talk about a bunch of other stuff.
WALSH: Well, I think they thought they had to a year and a half ago and that`s when it all got started, and now they`re just -- now they`re just in it. They`re just in that ditch, and I just love when they show Marjorie Taylor Greene. Like put her in the background or put her in the foreground of everything, because she is just such a star. She is --
MELBER: Warms your heart on a Friday.
WALSH: Really warms my heart on a Friday.
MELBER: Last item on Friday news.
WALSH: OK.
MELBER: As mentioned, your stock market. "Washington Post" describes it as a long tumble, lows not seen for a year. "Wall Street Journal," they focus on this, Dow low, growth fears roil markets. "New York Times," global markets tumble as recession fears return.
[18:30:00]
Where does this fit into an environment that in both real life and politics has felt like endless chaos? There`s always something else around the corner. And what do you say if you`re on the Democratic side and like we mentioned, you were kind of surging for a couple weeks, but now people are going whoa, I`m afraid again.
JOAN WALSH, NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, THE NATION: Right. Yes. I mean, it is scary. And I really don`t know what, you know, I don`t know what Powell is doing with raising interest rates. I don`t -- I mean, this is not my thing, as you know, but I know enough to be like, what, why? And, you know, why do we want to cause pain for working people?
And, you know, why do we want to bring the unemployment rate up? I mean, if you understand this at all, it`s just like, this is not what Democrats should be doing. I know, he`s independent. He wasn`t appointed by Biden. But this is not good, what`s happening.
MELBER: Right, and you`re making the point that they`re supposed to be this sort of independent monetary policy. But yes, there`s a way for the politicians who have a voice to try to press or announce what they think would be the better trade-off because sometimes, I`m also oversimplifying, but sometimes the Fed is way more oriented towards like, market stuff than, wait a minute, people need jobs. There`s not -- unemployment not too low if people are still coming out of pandemic.
WALSH: Exactly. Yes, so that`s -- that does worry me.
MELBER: Joan, it`s great to see you in person on a Friday.
WALSH: I love it.
MELBER: Absolutely. Have a good weekend. We have a lot coming up. Let me tell you. Accountability in the January 6th probe, a very special guest to real talk, I tried for months to get on THE BEAT, and I got him. Live tonight, Ebro Darden, a real accountability and why he says in his view, more people should go to jail.
And coming up, Alex Jones losing it in court. These are the stories we`ve told you about. Yes, free speech. There is accountability for defamation and lies. Cameras rolling, another trial for Mr. Jones. It matters. Facts matter. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:36:32]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For years, you put a target on his back, didn`t you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection to the form of that, judge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Overruled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Didn`t you?
ALEX JONES, FOUNDER, INFOWARS: I said his name, it`s true.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are real people. Did you know that Mr. Jones?
JONES: Just like all the Iraqis that you liberals killed and love. Just you`re unbelievable. You switch on emotions on and off when you want.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why don`t you show a little respect?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection judge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do not want to have a contempt hearing, I don`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Some of the fiery exchanges. That was in Connecticut courtroom yesterday when the judge says they don`t want contempt. They`re warning Jones right there. She`s warning him about being held in contempt or in jail for his outbursts. This is the right-wing conspiracy theories we`ve told you about. This is his second jury trial determining how much more he will pay in damages to families of the Sandy Hook Elementary School mass shooting.
Those were families that are victims who are being re-victimized according to court by Jones, who falsely defamed and attacked them through his profitable company InfoWars. 20 young children and six adults were murdered there. He said it was basically a hoax. His followers took him literally and seriously, even if he knew he was lying, at times even threatening the lives of those victims` families.
$45 million is the tune of the damages in the Texas trial. And what you see here is a man who even under this much pressure, and this is one of the most significant, serious legal penalties for defamation we`ve ever seen in modern times. He basically has no remorse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: I`ve already apologized to the parents over and over again. I don`t apologize to you. I don`t apologize to you. I`ve already said I`m sorry a hundred times, and I`m done saying I`m sorry. But I legitimately thought it might have been stage and I stand by that, and I don`t apologize for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: He`s done saying he`s sorry. He hasn`t had the final word in our court system. There`s also a legal story I want to tell you about with the grand jury and a federal civil case that has ruled against another group also accused of lying the controversial right-wing Project Veritas.
A jury found they had violated wiretapping laws and fraudulently misrepresented themselves in an effort to videotape democratic consultants. Videos were then later edited, posted online and the judge called it quote, political spying. The jury they`re ordering Project Veritas to pay over $100,000 in damages.
The group has said it will appeal. We wanted to give you those updates because as I`ve told you when we track truth and lies in America, the court system matters. We come back. How do you hold Trump allies accountable who may have helped plan what happened on January 6th without ever entering the Capitol? A special guest next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:43:56]
MELBER: It`s been quite a week and right now we`re turning to a very important conversation, accountability. Congress now making a legislative move to deal with parts of what led to the insurrection. The House actually passing a bill to overhaul an old law that Trump was basically trying to exploit or misrepresent to help steal the outcome of the election.
About nine Republicans voted for it, none of them, though, are coming back to Congress. A sign of how even straightforward reforms like this to basically make sure the outcomes of elections are honored is controversial on the right and in the Republican Party. The January 6 Committee, meanwhile, gearing up for a final hearing this Wednesday, big deal all around.
And as we think about accountability and think broadly, not just in beltway terms, I`m excited to tell you that we have one of the journalists in the music, cultural, and political space. Ebro Darden who rose to acclaim on Hot 97. Look at it right here. He`s also hosted the Ebro show on Apple Music, where he`s also an Apple executive.
And I say with all seriousness because I`ve had these combos with you. You know about a lot of things, but you`ve been talking about accountability, and I wanted to bring you to this table and have that conversation. Welcome.
[18:45:00]
EBRO DARDEN, RADIO HOST, WQHT HOT 97: Thank you for having me. And I`m -- congratulations on five years.
MELBER: Thank you, man.
DARDEN: Great soiree the other night.
MELBER: Thank you. I appreciate that.
DARDEN: I also want to just make sure before we go too far, the term journalist, let`s just make sure that you know, it`s very loose when it comes to me. You on the other hand.
MELBER: I appreciate that. But I said it --
DARDEN: Lawyer, journalist.
MELBER: I said it literally, by which I mean, you report on and take facts seriously.
DARDEN: And I sometimes journal, I jot things down.
MELBER: So, I`m not using it loosely, but I understand. So, it`s like if you call someone a poet, and they go, I don`t know if I`m a poet, right?
DARDEN: Like, I didn`t go to school for this.
MELBER: Neither did I. Neither did I.
DARDEN: I`m not even sure we should be here.
MELBER: Should we go? Should we leave? With five T.V. I guess we should stay.
DARDEN: I don`t know.
MELBER: I know what I said about you. And I want to put up on the screen. A lot of the people who did go into the Capitol that day were initially treated very differently by police. Indeed, they weren`t arrested on site. So, we`ve had that conversation. Now about 900 have been charged.
DARDEN: I think people -- I want people to pay attention to this number. There`s a lot of people who don`t even see this information. Because people in my world are waiting for more people to go to jail.
MELBER: So, let me go to number two for your analysis here. January 6th people who talked about the 6th, who went to the rally on the 6th some spoke at the rally. Put up on the screen. We got Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani, John Eastman, cooler, Mr. Mark Meadows, caught all up in the recession attacks. When you look at these individuals, Ebro, do you think there will be real accountability if they are not prosecuted?
DARDEN: Based on appearance?
MELBER: No.
DARDEN: Base on bank account? How are we basing this? Based on facts?
MELBER: Well, if the pawn is getting in trouble, do you think these are the kings?
DARDEN: Um, there`s no precedent for it. So, I think they may skirt the law. And I think that that`s going to be a real fracture, and I guess politics and our society and the judicial system at that level. Nobody believes those people are actually going to jail because of their money, because they can stretch things out, because they can stretch things out to the point where the public forgets, and maybe, you know, a lot of politicians running for office on this issue.
If those politicians lose, and this issue isn`t strong enough with their constituency, are these people actually going to be held accountable if those people that are on the committee --
MELBER: Because I tell you this, there`s evidence that people like Eastman and Meadows, knew more in advance and did more to put in electoral fraud than a lot of the people who marched in.
DARDEN: I only saw on Twitter that January 6th was the thing, was on the air here in New York City, talking about January 6th, before it happened, and even was on the air, people predicting that it would be what it was, and I went on to say I want to see what happens.
Because I want to see what the American institution is going to do about it. And that`s what`s happening right now. What`s happening right now, whether you like Trump, you don`t like Trump and all the cronies around them is they have challenged the system to the point, what are you going to do about it.
MELBER: Yes. You say it clearly. I hope people are listening because that is how Biden calls it semi-fascism. You`re going to call it authoritarian. That`s what those systems do. It`s not a bug. It`s a feature to say, look at what you can get away with and build a movement around that. I like to use evidence, so I have exhibit A. for you.
DARDEN: Let`s go.
MELBER: Not exhibit C.
DARDEN: Aren`t you a lawyer?
MELBER: Not Exhibit C.
DARDEN: Jay Electronica
MELBER: Shout out to Jay Electronica. Exhibit A.
DARDEN: Yes.
MELBER: Here`s someone who was actually reaching the Capitol than speaking out in public on the anniversary. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll keep comparing it to the worst thing since whatever, blah, blah, blah. There was really no threat to their life. Like everybody`s trying to say. And everybody`s just in there and walk around hooting hollering. You know, nobody had weapons. Nobody was attacking people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you apologize for anything you did that day?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DARDEN: Yes. And what are you going to do about it? That`s what we are. That`s what things are. And I hate to be this guy. But I got to beat this guy. And this is just who I am. And I`m this way on Ebro in the morning on Hot 97 in New York, and also on Apple Music.
MELBER: And right now, you`re on live national news. So, no one can stop you.
DARDEN: Um, what are you going to do about it? And even further than that, if you don`t do anything about it, it`s going to keep happening. And most people walking around or watching this today, they assume nothing`s going to happen. So, what does that actually say about the faith in the system? Which is why people even joked around and voted for Donald Trump because people thought -- it is people who thought it was funny.
They just wanted to see what would happen. Screw those people up there on Capitol Hill. They don`t care about us. We`re going to vote for the reality show hosts. Let`s see what happens. What do I got to lose? And even the people who showed up ran and smeared human feces on the walls in the Capitol. Why not?
[18:50:00]
MELBER: So, do you think people understand writ large, not people who follow politics every day because I always try to look as wide as possible, that this can get a lot worse for us here in this country?
DARDEN: Um, I don`t think they understand because they haven`t seen it. And I don`t even know if they can digest what you`re saying. I don`t think people`s brains function in that way.
MELBER: That`s an interesting way to put it. Why? Why can`t they?
DARDEN: There is no precedent. American exceptionalism. We`re the best, we`re the greatest. Oh, that won`t happen here. I mean, even to the -- even right now, people who saw January 6th, will fix their lips and say, this is not who we are. What are you talking about? We just saw on television. It`s clearly who we are. What are you saying?
Donald Trump wins presidency. This is not who we are. Did you go to the rallies? Did you see what was happening on T.V.? It`s clearly a part of who we are. Police kill black men in streets. This is not who we are. It`s been who we are since inception, since day one. Why do we keep acting like we`re not this, because we`re programmed to think that we`re better than we actually are.
And we`re going to have to come to terms with that, if we`re actually going to improve. And until we do, there won`t be improvement. There`s people who don`t want to convict Donald Trump or any of his cronies, because of the way it looks to the world. You know, we`re not a Banana Republic. We don`t, you know, jail, our former politicians, we don`t do that here.
Well, we might want to start. We might want to start and fast. Otherwise, we`ll just have more of this. And there`ll be more people saying inflammatory things and inciting violence and that`ll become the norm. As we prepare for the midterms. Isn`t there talk and fear of violence around elections?
MELBER: Well, not only that, you -- yes. And you have people like Donald Trump and Lindsey Graham saying, if you do something to enforce the law, there might be riots. And we did a report on this program about how when they talked about riots after alleged looting, after police brutality incidents, they said, that means you have to double down, show those people, they`re not in charge. Now, all of a sudden, the very phantom idea of right-wing riots is supposed to make the DOJ stand down.
DARDEN: Right. But this in this nation, when people talk about violence around elections, my ancestors who are black, and indigenous, and Jewish, are accustomed to violence around voting, because that`s what happened to black folks in this nation when they used to try to vote. So there has been violence around elections in this nation. But it just hasn`t been something that America wanted to hold itself accountable for.
Even in this nation right now, people are banning books, not wanting to read history, not wanting to teach the facts. They want to use it to alternative facts. All of these things are continuing to happen. You cover it on your show, I talk about it on the air, people write articles about it, but on Capitol Hill, politicians are afraid to talk about it. They`re worried they`re going to lose their jobs.
They`re worried they`re not going to get elected. I get it. Right? You want the -- you want the job. You want the power. You want to see. You want to the upward mobility in your political career, but at some point, people are going to have to get to being honest. If we`re going to fix this. And I can tell you regular folks don`t think it`s going to get fix.
MELBER: Right. Ebro Darden?
DARDEN: Yes, sir.
MELBER: I appreciate you in the clarity of your voice.
DARDEN: Thank you.
MELBER: Thank you for being here.
DARDEN: Hey, man. It`s been a pleasure.
MELBER: Ebro to end the week. But we have an update -- yes, you did a news thing. We have an update in the Matt Gaetz case next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:58:00]
MELBER: Legal news that I want to update you on, on a story that we have followed from its inception. The sex trafficking probe involving Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida appears to be wrapping up. The Washington Post reports that the career prosecutors recommend no charges over what was investigated whether you had involvement with an ex-girlfriend who was 17 at the time and other individuals, including some who have been charged.
The Post describes credibility questions with the two central witnesses and reports, quote, the ex-girlfriend`s testimony has issues that would not pass muster with a jury. That according to sourcing based on those career prosecutors who are supposed to be nonpartisan, and ultimately often have really the most influential word on whether there are charges.
The prosecutors also said that Gaetz`s former friend, Joel Greenberg pled guilty last year to sex trafficking of a minor, which we`ve reported on that`s public information. And that because he was basically affiliated with a host of other crimes, that while he made a cooperation deal, he also did not prove to be a compelling witness.
The Post reports his credibility would also be a significant challenge for any potential prosecution of Gaetz, which the prosecutors now according to the Post, do not recommend. Now Gaetz declined to comment to the Post on this story, but, and we want to show you this, throughout this story, and we`ve reported his denials before, he has been very clear in public denying any and all wrongdoing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): I`m innocent, I have maintained my innocence. I have been entirely consistent on this fact. And each and every day, the lies about me unravel and are debunked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER; That`s what he said in the past. And according to the Post multiple sources inside the probe with knowledge of these career prosecutors that would appear to be something substantiated or at least not quibbled with by the federal prosecutors. To be clear, the DOJ has not announced a final decision, but it is unusual, I want you to understand to deviate from what career prosecutors would recommend.
That`s an update we want to share with you as we end the week, you can find me online @AriMelber on social media, also MelberBook.com to find the January 6th report and my foreword that we told you about this week. Thanks for spending time with us. "THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID" starts now.