Summary
More fallout from the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago as Trump White House lawyers were grilled over intelligence documents, also allies Rudy Giuliani and Lindsey Graham on target list in Georgia election interference probe. Trump demanding FBI to release information or affidavit about search despite concerns over safety and attacks on law enforcement. Political strategist and historian Chai Komanduri joins Ari Melber to talk about President Biden signing a historic bill today and reflecting on J. Lo`s fictional Senate history. On Ari Melber`s MSNBC interview series "MAVERICKS," Snoop Dogg reacted to powerful footage of the late rapper Tupac, discussing the Black Panthers, how the organization helped Black Americans, and how he used that same model to support people through music.
Transcript
JOHN HEILEMANN, MSNBC HOST: It`s sort of a famous thing to say that no one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition but one thing that people definitely expect is that there`s a political primary around the country. It`s always a big night here at MSNBC. And about three hours from now, the premier also, in addition to primary coverage, we have the network`s newest primetime show.
My incredibly good friend, dear former colleague at Circus, on Showtime, now back in the big chair, in the biggest chair of all, Alex Wagner. Watch her show, "ALEX WAGNER TONIGHT." It will air every Tuesday through Friday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. Alex`s big guest tonight will be Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger of the January 6th Committee.
And I got to say, the one thing you can always count on is that Wags is going to kill it. No doubt about that. You`d be a fool not to watch the show tonight with Alex Wagner.
Also tonight, the one and only Steve Kornacki will be at the big board as the results come in from Wyoming. The poll there close at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. And then of course if you`re a late night person you`ll be hanging out to watch the results come in from Alaska. The polls there close at midnight Eastern Time. There`s a lot of intrigue in that race.
It`s the Alaska primary system is not only -- it`s complicated by the fact that they`re using ranked choice voting system, they`re trying to replace late Republican Congressman Don Young who was in that seat for decades. You`ve got Sarah Palin in that race. The most recent polling has Begich and Palin at 29 percent each. I don`t think anybody really thinks that Sarah Palin is not going to make it through, at least through this primary and into the general election, even with ranked choice voting and everything else.
Can`t say the same thing for Liz Cheney. Things are not looking pretty for her there, but you never know.
Thank you for being with us this Tuesday. THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER is going to start after a quick break, so don`t go anywhere. That show is awesome.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Welcome to THE BEAT. I`m Ari Melber. And we have a big show for you tonight.
Donald Trump`s legal problems have been mounting after what we`ve seen, his worst legal week ever. We have much more on that tonight. Later we`ll also dig into a historic win for President Biden, signing this major spending bill once left for dead. And also tonight, I will be joined by a legend, rapper Snoop Dogg as he marks his 50th year, fresh off global recognition on that Super Bowl stage. It`s unlike anything we`ve done before.
Snoop brought THE BEAT inside his California studio, discussing two recent albums. Why he says evolution is vital in life, his views on this current president and why he finds the civil rights advocacy of the late Tupac Shakur relevant today. This will be airing tonight. I hope you`ll stay with us because there`s much here, whether you like Snoop`s music, or perhaps his work with Martha Stewart, or his undeniable style.
So that`s coming up tonight on THE BEAT. But the top story right now is this rising fallout from that Trump search. The FBI we`re learning grilled two Trump White House lawyers about what it views as those stolen secret documents. "The New York Times" reporting that. So we`re learning that for the first time.
The next step in this case is a hearing about whether to unseal the rest of that search material. The DOJ formally opposes that. They cite the open probe and the security risk of possibly publicizing any officials who will be working on the matter and they also note the threats made against law enforcement since that August 8th search.
Trump and his allies are pushing for this release. And for them, the mood and the message may be more vital than any facts that come out. Demanding the release of something they know the DOJ wants hidden is a way for Trump to appear to go back on offense after that bruising week with at least three losses, according to the public count.
[18:05:07]
Now, if this stays hidden, that also allows him to stoke even more conspiracies regardless of the facts. But many news organizations we should note are also pushing for release, that actually puts Trump on the same side as news outlets he often derides. Their goal, though, is to just get as much information as possible.
We`ll see what the judge decides. But if you`re keeping tabs, none of this debate about that affidavit resolves whether the search itself was valid. A judge already approved it, and the warrant that we got with its inventory list Friday showed the agents got their pilfered documents back in the custody of the U.S. government. And Trump, remember, has not even tried to go to court to challenge that search, meaning fighting over the affidavit is different than actually trying to get into the search`s validity.
Then there`s the heat on Giuliani who`s going under oath tomorrow in the separate Georgia probe. Prosecutors putting him on a target list for indictment and his response is, that`s fascism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER PERSONAL ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP: When you start turning around lawyers into defendants when they`re defending their clients, we`re starting to live in a fascist state.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Giuliani is the most senior Trump ally to ever be targeted for indictment in any of these cases while a judge ordered another Trump ally involved in all this in Georgia, Senator Lindsey Graham, to go ahead and testify.
So that`s bad legal news for Trump in Georgia and Florida and Washington, while there are signs of a reprieve for him in New York. We have more on that later tonight.
You take it all together and you see a problem not only for Donald Trump legally, which will of course be adjudicated by prosecutors and by courts or juries if necessary, but also in the wider American psyche, as voters also go to the polls in two states tonight, and we`ll get to that later. You have this former president with all of his legal problems continuing to saddle the Republican Party in something that the justice and the criminal justice process always does, which is look to the past, not the future.
Let`s get right to it with Michael Steele, former chair of the RNC who endorsed Joe Biden.
Welcome back, sir.
MICHAEL STEELE, FORMER RNC CHAIRMAN: Hey. Good to be with you, Ari.
MELBER: I mentioned the past because unless you`re into science fiction or minority report, you don`t prosecute crimes in the future that haven`t happened yet. Prosecutors don`t have those powers. And yet more and more, it seems that Republicans are stuck carrying Donald Trump`s water and trying to defend things that are about the past.
STEELE: Well, and let`s be clear, that`s because they choose to. They have aligned themselves in such a way that they cannot get away from not only his political problems that he presents for the party, but also his legal troubles, as Lindsey Graham and others now seem to be caught up in that web and, you know, wanting to avoid testifying.
Just testify to what you know. I mean, look, you`re hanging out with the guy. You think he`s clean-cut, you think he`s all-American, you think -- you know, he`s right for Rudy, right? So what are you afraid of? Just tell them what you want to know. But all this obfuscation and all of this, you know, "I don`t want to testify," a lot of it to do with because they don`t know where all those tentacles go and what they touch.
They don`t know what`s on somebody else`s cell phone that may implicate them. So that`s what happens when you get into the, you know, the tub or the pool with a lot of bad actors, you`re going to get wet.
MELBER: You`re going to get wet, and Michael, I don`t know how much swimming you do, because I don`t know about your summer schedule, but you stay in that water too long, you can start to wrinkle. I don`t know if you`ve ever seen that happen.
STEELE: Yes, you do. Yes, you do.
MELBER: If you stay in too long.
STEELE: You do, you do, and there are a lot of legal wrinkles, my friend, that they have to contend with because the reality of it is, Georgia, New York, the January 6th Committee, now the FBI, all of them are like pincer moves on Trump`s culpability around now we know, national security related issues, certainly trying to steal an election in places like Georgia. And so for senators and for congressmen, their question becomes, how close do I get to the sun? Like Icarus, right?
How close do I get before stuff starts to melt and I start to fall? And what the court is saying is, no, you need to get a little bit closer to the sun because we need to talk to you, and that`s a problem.
MELBER: Which goes to the heat as it were.
STEELE: Which goes to the heat. Exactly.
MELBER: A lot of geological and climate energy in our analysis tonight. Michael, I want to talk to you more about what you just said, that it doesn`t have to be this way.
STEELE: Right.
MELBER: There have been people in both parties who have had criminal problems in the past.
[18:10:02]
We can get into the analysis, but the Democrats did not stick with Rod Blagojevich or John Edwards even after he did beat his case. So legally he beat his case but it uncovered enough that they said, we`re moving on with this.
The Republican Party of the `70s to its credit did not continue to rally around Nixon. He went out and said, anything the president does is legal, and a heck of a lot of Republicans said, there he goes again, and that`s why we stood up to him because that is, talk about actual fascism and not its fake invocation, that is the state is me, that is actual fascism.
STEELE: Right.
MELBER: And so now I`m going to do the thing I do with a warning to the audience, Michael. I`m going to play you something from a prominent conservative with a big following not because it is true, but because it is relevant to deal with.
STEELE: Sure.
MELBER: And that is Tucker Carlson. He doesn`t know the future of the elections, he doesn`t know the future of the prosecutions. I tell viewers all the time, we know this, we don`t know that. I can`t tell you what`s going to be indicted, Michael. I can`t do it. Apparently Tucker thinks he can. So not because it`s true, but because it`s relevant, here`s his claim about Donald Trump`s, he believes, looming indictment.
STEELE: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS HOST: When the Biden Justice Department, or some other state law enforcement agency under their influence finally does what you know they`re going to do, which is indict Donald Trump, obviously they`re going to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Michael, what is happening here when it`s not Trump`s enemies right now, but someone like Tucker trying to lay a ground work for that expectation.
STEELE: Well, you put your finger on the important piece, and that is laying the ground work. All this is about how do we muddy the waters later on? How do we create conflict? How do we create damage and control the damage that we create? And the closest example of how we`ve seen this play out is with Merrick -- with the hearings earlier with Mueller. And you have the attorney general, which they no longer have in their back pocket coming out and telling the country what`s in the document before we actually have a chance to see it.
So then when we see it, we`re like, well, he already told us it`s this thing, so that must be what it is. When you don`t have that kind of authority around you, you don`t have that kind of weight, you have Tucker Carlson, and that`s not saying much. But that`s all you got. So you roll him out, and he starts this, well, they`re going to indict him, and you know when they do, this is what it means.
Trying to do that Barr thing where I`m going tell you something that`s going to happen, and when it happens I`ve already told you what to think about it.
MELBER: Hmm.
STEELE: And that is something that is -- it is a staple in Trump world because Trump does it. But Trump doesn`t want to right now be the guy to do that so much because there are legal consequences every time he opens his mouth, and he knows that. At least his lawyers are telling him that, and he seems to be trying to adhere to that as much as possible. But to your first point about, you know, what we saw during the Nixon era and what we`ve seen when the Democrats have had to confront that kind of behavior within their party and they`ve cut it out, there was a political evaluation that they made.
The calculation was, we can`t afford to take the political hit, so guess what? Senator, loved your presidential bid. No, we`re done. Mr. President, I get it, but we got a big election coming up. You`re done. Republicans have recalculated this based on what they`ve seen in Trump and realized, well, there aren`t any political consequences for these actions. There are no political consequences for us.
Lookit, we`re winning primaries right and left. The voters haven`t turned away from us. Trump goes on and has a rally people still show up. Hell, the FBI raids his home, and voters just come out and with their flags and their trucks and their horns, and they`re there for Trump. So they calculate a different penalty when it comes to the politics.
MELBER: Right, right.
STEELE: And so that`s why you see them leaning the way they do. November is a chance for the voters to go, no, we`ve been watching you, and we don`t like what we see, and we`re not giving you the power. And that, I think, could be a slight wakeup call for Republicans and how they calculate 2024.
MELBER: Right. That makes a lot of sense, and you put in context something that sounded sort of counterintuitive.
Michael Steele, thank you.
We have our shortest break, 60 seconds. When we come back, staring down right-wing violence. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:15:48]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): We need the affidavit. Show your cards. Merrick Garland can`t have it both ways.
REP. BRIAN FITZPATRICK (R-PA): Was there unprecedented justification, that remains an open question. And we know exactly where to look, and that is the affidavit of probable cause.
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS (R-SD): I think it`s very important long-term for the Justice Department, now that they`ve done this, that they show this was not just a fishing expedition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Some Trump allies are pushing DOJ to release more information about that Mar-a-Lago search. And let`s be clear, that`s a legitimate request for a court to hear, and a court will decide it as we reported tonight. So that`s what the adversarial process is supposed to look like. Other Trump allies, though, and top former staff are reaching for something else, despicable attacks on American police and the FBI and the absurd but dangerous Nazi analogies from top Republicans.
Take convicted Trump aide Steve Bannon literally claiming the FBI in America is now like, he says, like the Nazi secret police known as the Gestapo.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: They`ve turned into the American Gestapo. MAGA is a direct threat to the -- wait for it -- the American state. You said this quiet part out loud. We are a threat to the American state.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think Donald Trump should be in any fear of the deepest of the deep state?
GIULIANI: Yes, he should.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe killing him?
GIULIANI: I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re in a revolutionary situation. It`s out to destroy a particular person, Donald Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obstructing justice on what, you jerks?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unbelievable. Unbelievable. All right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had planted on an investigation that you basically created out of whole cloth.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): What they have been doing to President Trump is political persecution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Much of that is not what valid debate looks like. It`s lying and hateful rhetoric at this time of rising violence, targeting law enforcement, which Trump appeared to reference when he was recently caught sending a so-called message about the fire and the danger and the heat that he could turn up or down to Attorney General Garland.
I want to bring in Asha Rangappa, a lawyer and former FBI special agent in the Counterintelligence Division who knows all of these issues well.
Thank you for being here.
ASHA RANGAPPA, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Thanks, Ari.
MELBER: What do you see in that kind of rhetoric? And while it`s easy to dismiss because people say it`s fact-free, does it matter? Does it have consequence?
RANGAPPA: It absolutely has consequence, Ari, but I think we also need to analyze it as a strategy. So, first of all, you know, with regard to unsealing this affidavit, let`s take that as an example. There are these calls for transparency that, you know, this affidavit needs to be unsealed. One of the arguments the government is making is the affidavit should not be unsealed because witnesses might be put in danger.
MELBER: Right.
RANGAPPA: You know, if their identities are revealed. So, when this rhetoric is escalating, that is encouraging, you know, distrust, violence, you know, attacks on law enforcement, these people are actually basically guaranteeing that the judge is going to, you know, take that government argument very seriously. They`re undercutting this idea of transparency. And I think that, you know, they want that. They really don`t want transparency.
Transparency hurts them. Michael, in your previous segment, was describing kind of some of these tactics. It`s information warfare. It is a strategy of basically shaping perceptions and how people think, and I think that creating a vacuum is where this rhetoric flourishes. And I think it`s important to understand that, because it means that they can weaponize aspects of our judicial system and process that operates in a particular way, you know, with particular steps, keeping things, you know, not transparent until certain stages.
And we have to expect more of this to happen and I think it puts Garland in a particularly difficult position in terms of moving forward as well.
MELBER: Was the message "The New York Times" reported that Trump tried to personally send to Garland improper?
[18:20:04]
RANGAPPA: Yes, I think it was very improper. I mean, you know, we know that he has zero firewalls between himself and the Justice Department. I think it was an act of desperation. But you know, his message, which was sort of offering to bring down the heat, as though that`s something that, you know, he wouldn`t do normally, like he would need to be requested to do that, to me sounded like a veiled quid pro quo.
You know, we`ve seen that movie before, the "I hope you can see your way to letting this go," and I found those kinds of undertones in that. I mean, look, if you`re the former president of the United States, if people are committing violence or threatening violence, you should condemn it, period, as should all of, you know, the people supporting him. And the fact that they`re not really tells you this is, I think, potentially a January 6th reprise of, you know, you do what we say or we`ll send our, you know, lunatic army after you.
MELBER: Lunatic army, yes, at a time when you see the rhetoric over here, Trump over there, and then amongst some individuals actual violence taken, crimes committed, attacks on law enforcement. So it`s a serious time. We`re going to keep the scrutiny on.
Asha, thanks for being here tonight.
RANGAPPA: Thank you.
MELBER: We`re going to fit in a break, but as mentioned we have a lot coming up, including getting into politics and more with Snoop Dogg on THE BEAT tonight.
But first up next we turn to these primaries tonight. Two states, two big figures in Cheney and Palin. Chai Komanduri is here on what it all reveals.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): We`re facing a moment where our democracy really is under attack and under threat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:26:28]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: No matter what the outcome is, it`s certainly the beginning of a battle that is going to continue and is going to go on. We`re facing a moment where our democracy really is under attack and under threat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Liz Cheney warning democracy is very much, in her view, on the ballot tonight. Wyoming Republicans are headed to the polls for a primary that really normally wouldn`t be contested at all. But remember what this is about. Cheney`s opposition to a violent coup has now put her in a race for her political life. A dramatic turn which speaks to the shift of the Republican Party.
Her conservative credentials are impeccable and not in doubt. But her advocacy for democracy, the idea that we elect leaders and have a peaceful transfer of power, now has her trailing in the polls to the candidate with Trump`s endorsement.
Meanwhile, Sarah Palin is trying to embrace Trump in return to office. She`s also on the ballot today in Alaska. She wants to enter the U.S. Congress. She was of course McCain`s running mate, and that would have put her in the path to succeed Liz Cheney`s father, Dick Cheney, back in 2008. Her current campaign also endorsed by Trump, and they go way back with their school of reality show politics. Polar opposite messages today from these two high profile Republicans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: We`re confronting a domestic threat that we have never faced before, and that is a former president who is attempting to unravel the foundations of our constitutional republic.
SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He was the only one who had the balls to take on the big media, fake news, and to take on Hillary Clinton. And he did it. For you, he did it. That`s why I love him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Don`t need a ton of interpretation with clips like that.
Chai Komanduri is a veteran of the Obama campaign and our in-house political strategist and historian.
Good to see you, sir.
CHAI KOMANDURI, POLITICAL STRATEGIST: Good to see you, Ari.
MELBER: What do you see in these two races tonight?
KOMANDURI: Well, it`s a tale of two Republicans. Both of them were iconic figures 20 years ago in their parties. Both of them are iconic figures today. But what is occurring is that one of them, Sarah Palin, is in much better shape than Liz Cheney. And the difference is Donald Trump. Donald Trump endorsed Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin was the mother of MAGA. She basically created a lot of the things that Donald Trump effectively used to become the president of the United States. And as a result, Sarah Palin`s in much stronger shape than Liz Cheney.
Liz Cheney, you know, every poll sees her 20 points down, 30 points down. It doesn`t look good and I think it also doesn`t look good for the future of the Republican Party because what has happened now is a type of grievance politics that Sarah Palin engineered and that Donald Trump perfected has now fully taken over the GOP.
MELBER: Yes, it`s really striking when you look at that in these primaries where, of course, parties decide, really, who they are, what they want to stand for and what`s more important than democracy? We will see. We`ll count the votes. I don`t do predictions, but it`s a striking set of stories there.
Then you have President Biden scoring the big win today, this sweeping bill is the largest investment ever to fight climate change and work on energy, also negotiate lower drug prices and healthcare, something that Barack Obama tried to do. And they also view it over the White House as the Inflation Reduction Act. It is many things to many people Chai.
[18:30:00]
This is one of those big wins that really might have gotten more attention for other reasons. I mean, we know what dominated last week and we also know that Joe Manchin style is to get three weeks of bad press and then eke out three days of what the White House uses good press, although that may be what Manchin needs back home to show how hard he fought and how close it was. What do you see that matters here in this Biden bill?
KOMANDURI: Look, this Biden bill today is the capstone of what has been an outstanding summer for Joe Biden and the Democratic Party, I would say. You know, this summer began, Joe Biden, you know, did not look particularly good in the polling. He was being written off by D.C. insiders, people were talking about primary challenges. Now he looks like Liam Neeson in Taken.
He`s like this older man who has been largely written off. He has a very particular set of skills, a set of skills acquired over a very long career, and skills that make him potentially a nightmare for Republicans. Republicans who are stuck going into the fall defending the Supreme Court, assault weapons, and Donald Trump.
Instead, Joe Biden has an act the Inflation Reduction Act that appeals to two very different groups, inflation voters who are very big in the suburbs and the young voters, these are low propensity Democratic voters who I think will be excited if they are told effectively about the climate change provisions in this bill.
MELBER: You may be the first person in world history to compare Biden to Liam Neeson. Liam Neeson also play Ra`s al Ghul? Is that?
KOMANDURI: He did. He did in Batman Begins.
MELBER: He did. And you know, that`s, of course, I mean, Liam Neeson is often in these roles where he is kind of shaping or has these whiz pieces of wisdom. I didn`t know you`d bring up a film, although it wasn`t wild. You know, it was not a total curveball here. But we did have one thing that I needed to do, which is about J. Lo. And we take all our facts seriously here, but especially J. Lo related facts.
I made reference an earlier segment with you to her film, her film was called Maid in Manhattan. And I believe we have -- yes. Some great happy memories here. I erroneously referred to it as Maid in America, and Chai among many other great people that are many J. Lo fans and aficionados who watched THE BEAT, and who wanted us to know that our conversation and my reference was incorrect. It was Maid in Manhattan Chai.
KOMANDURI: It was. Maid in America, I believe is a different film, I think from 1994. It is not as good as Maid in Manhattan, certainly. I also was told that the movie was incorrect. The movie that she had number one and also the number one song was the Wedding Planner. Those who were -- that was when she achieved the simultaneous number one and both the music charts and the movie charts.
Maid in Manhattan for what it`s worth, I think is a far better movie than the Wedding Planner. Nothing against Matthew McConaughey was I think he`s great. And J. Lo I think he`s great, but Maid in Manhattan, a better film than the Wedding Planner, I say.
MELBER: I appreciate that Chai. The facts matter even the facts about trivia. And the only extra compliment we can extend to Ms. Lopez is that all of her work across multiple methods and genres leaves a lot of accolades and projects to keep track of. So, a tip of the hat there. Chai on two topics and two films. Thanks for being here.
KOMANDURI: Thank you.
MELBER: Absolutely, I`m going to fit in a break but please stay with me because I`m so excited to share with you our sit down with Snoop Dogg airing for the first time in his Inglewood studio. Justice, politics, accountability, music, and why he`s still creative in midlife as he keeps making moves. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:38:43]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And today our very special "MAVERICK" is the one and only Snoop Doggy Dogg. Thanks, doing this.
SNOOP DOGG, RAPPER: Thank you for having me.
MELBER: How you doing?
DOGG: I`m good, man. Welcome to the compound. Thank you.
MELBER: It`s an honor to be here. We walked in and you were playing a new song you`ve been working on today. So, tell me about that and where we are.
DOGG: Well, we`re inside to compound. This is my facilities that I`ve been in for like the past 12 years in Inglewood, California. I`m working on some music with Hit-Boy right now. I just dropped the album called Algorithm, but Hit-Boy is on Def Jam Records and he`s a family member and which is felt like making music.
MELBER: Let`s start with the Algorithm the -- congratulations, new album, it`s you, it features a lot of people, it opens by you telling people an algorithm is a process for calculations or problem-solving operations.
DOGG: Especially by a computer.
MELBER: Especially by a computer. What is that mean to you Snoop Dogg at 50 doing everything you`re doing?
DOGG: It just means that certain things need to be shaken up. Like the algorithm, it`s great in certain things but in music, I felt like it was kind of off. So, I wanted to get it back on. I thought that algorithm was based off of a computer telling you what was a hot record as opposed to you fill in what a hot record was. So, that`s what this project is about. It`s about breaking the algorithm and making music feel good as opposed to sound good.
[18:40:00]
MELBER: How do you break the algorithm?
DOGG: I break the algorithm by being a Snoop Dogg, you know, because you can`t -- you can`t write me or make me, you can`t really shape me or break me.
MELBER: But there was this dividing line in your life that is in your music that people know about that case. And the song Murder was the case in the film and everything else. You know, some white people really are afraid of black people in America.
DOGG: Right?
MELBER: You come out of that case, the justice system said what it said, so you were cleared. And then we have the whole rest of your life to reflect on, so people know Snoop, the businessman, Snoop Martha Stewart`s friend, all the rest. Do you think it`s important that Americans understand that a lot of other people who are in that position being defined by the justice system of the media that way might have so much more to them?
DOGG: Yes. And I feel like, I`m a great example of that. And I`ll be, you know, displaying that with different television series and different things that I`ll be doing as a part of my life coming up real soon. So, people can get an understanding and a direct commentary for me. How was personal for me to go through that to get to where I`m at.
MELBER: Do you remember the feeling of that stress or duality, because at the time I read, it was the first debut album to debut at number one at the time. So that`s like the best musical beginning you could have. And then against everything you just said, did that feel like out of sorts for you, or you just took it as it came?
DOGG: No, I felt like a dream and a nightmare. Because with all of the success that was going on, I couldn`t really enjoy because my life was in limbo, as far as I know, the justice system. And I know that, you know, it didn`t look good for me. Because my music, my background, my past record, and then my record label.
So, all of that went into account, as far as like, these are things that are working against me. Now, I got to have a great team of lawyers, they had to speak for me to portray me as who I was not what you thought I was. And, you know, by the blessings of God, the jury was able to look past the music and the hype and the media and look at the person.
MELBER: When you looked at that jury, what were you hoping and what did you learn about our justice system? Because it can go both ways. We cover a lot of problems, but sometimes it`s the jury that does with the government and the police and others won`t.
DOGG: Well, actually, I was quite nervous, because if you recall O. J. Simpson that just beat his case. So, I was thinking that since he beat his it was a must for me to lose mine because the justice system is not going to see two black men walk out of the same courtroom with not guilty verdicts. So, we weighed heavy on my mind and on my heart. That`s why when I got the decision or the verdict, I went immediately into a prayer position because I was thankful.
There wasn`t like a celebratory moment where we were happy, or, you know, it was a sad moment, because somebody`s life was lost in my life was in limbo. And this is something that I got to live with forever. So that`s why I went about it a different way when I got back on Death Row Records, I was on a different way. And they didn`t understand me because they wanted me to be the old Snoop, and I was the new Snoop.
And had to tell you this story. I was nominated for an American Music Award. And ABC and Disney didn`t want me to come to the show, because I was fighting a murder case. And Dick Clark went to war for me and said he`s going to perform. He`s going to do what he`s got to do. This is America. He`s innocent until proven guilty. And I like his music.
MELBER: Dick Clark said that?
DOGG: And Dick Clark had me, come on, and I perform at the American Music Awards, and I won that night.
MELBER: What did that tell you about the way he views the world?
DOGG: Man, it made me love Dick Clark, that much more. Man, like just because as a kid when he was watching American bands to like, I`d never be on that show that`s so far away from me. But then to be able to make music and have my song talked about by him and him go to war and say, no, he`s coming. And then when I got there that day, he was waiting on me.
He was waiting on me, man. I`m like, man, Dick Clark is waiting. Hey, Snoop Dogg, Dogg, come on in. And he was like, laid it all out for me. We chopped it up for like 30 minutes. And he was like when you go out there and perform, make me proud.
MELBER: That`s awesome.
DOGG: And I`m like, that`s the moment for me. Like, come on, man. Dick Clark, one of the greatest ever doing. And he stood up for the Dogg when a Dogg didn`t have a voice.
MELBER: Hip hop was initially thought of as a trend. Now it`s, as you said, it`s rock and roll. Kanye said you guys are new rock stars now, is that flow that always work because today, we`ve got it shifting into the singing?
DOGG: Yes, but I mean, if you think about me, I was singing and rapping.
MELBER: Respect.
DOGG: Ain`t nothin` but a G. thang, baby. That`s rapping and singing at the same time. So, you know, you can`t reinvent the wheel. They go off and try to put a new name on it, but it`s the same thing. And it`s been going on since the beginning of time. Even the things that I`m doing aren`t brand new. It`s just I got a new name for it. It`s a new persona that`s pushing.
Somebody was creating this type of vibe and doing this way before me. You just don`t know who that person is because they probably didn`t have no spotlight on him or the attention on him. But I`m just a spirit of the spirit that was here before me.
MELBER: I saw you have the art right back here with Tupac.
DOGG: Yes. That`s the dog. That`s my dog.
[18:45:00]
MELBER: How do you remember park now?
DOGG: Parked and give him. If he loves you, he loves you. If he hated you, he hated you. When no one between, when no cut.
MELBER: He was so far ahead. And he wasn`t angry at the justice system, he was angry at injustice.
DOGG: He was angry at the system, not the justice system, the system. The system that`s designed to bring the black man down. Because remember, he`s a Black Panther. So, he`s saying that directly as far as how the Black Panthers was organized to help out the black community, put back into helping the kids, and just structure us as far as having our own values and the way we live.
And then you see Edgar Hoover it`s documented now. They killed him. They killed him. So how do you think he`s supposed to feel when the only black - - that imagine, like our positive role models, the football players and the basketball players and athletes and entertainers, and they decided to come together, so can we can help our people. And all of a sudden, the government killed him.
How do you think their kid`s going to feel about the next generation? So, that`s the way to Parkfield. That`s the way we felt. But just not feeling that way. We made a difference who was able to do so. We was able to have a voice. Was able to move mountains. Was able to unite people.
And we was able to even unite color lines because Tupac loved all peoples and I love all people, we didn`t just make music for black people. It was just we were trying to help black people because we see what was done to us when we tried to help each other.
MELBER: And those facts were there and documented. But so much of establishment America and white America lied about it or ignored it. And we`ve had a little bit more of this reckoning in the last few years along with rising hate, we have some Pac on all these issues I want to play for you because it`s one thing to be right at the time. It`s another thing to be ahead of your time. So, I want to play this for your thoughts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUPAC SHAKUR, RAPPER: I don`t want to be 50 years old at a B.E.T. We shall overcome achievement awards. You know, I`m saying. Not me. Every time I speak, I want the truth to come out. You know, I`m saying. Every time I speak, I want to shiver.
The same crime element that white people fear, we fear. So, we defend ourselves from the same crime element that they scared up. I think that what we need to do as a community is start taking control back of our communities, we just need to regulate it. So, that we can at least have like a peaceful zone. We can all be cool, you know, or else we can all die, we can all be destroyed.
Well, we asked 10 years ago. We was asking what the Panthers, was asking with them, you know, civil rights movement was asking, you know. Now that those people that we`re asking, they`re all dead and in jail. So now what do you think we`re going to do? Ask?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOGG: No. Now you get it. Even watching that my spirit is bubbling right now. Like I feel like somebody up from just hearing that just because I know that it puts me in that arena zone when we are voice did matter back then. Things we were speaking to as far as corruption and violence and all that they would take it and reverse it back on us. As if, no, you got a problem.
You`re violent, you`re this. No, America`s violent, we was peaceful. The Black Panthers was put together to bear arms and do all this peaceful stuff. Y`all came and shot them down and knock them down. And now we don`t have a voice. And now when we try to speak as rappers, you want to lock us up and say our music is making people kill each other and this and that.
And then we came bear arms, like all the stuff he was speaking to is happening right now. But this is 25 years ago. So, it was like if we don`t stand up and make a difference and make a change, it won`t change. So, that`s why we do what we do. And we move in like we move on right now.
MELBER: Where would he be now? Do you think?
DOGG: Right where I`m at or further.
MELBER: Does it strike you that many young people today born after he died, they still come to him in his words and his music?
DOGG: Well, I mean, you got to think about is the gospel. I mean, he was all about to people. Tupac was in the streets, for the streets, for the people. Just imagine what he was doing at 25. That was 25 years ago. So, he only got to live half of what I`m doing. But he was so far ahead of the game. That things he`s saying from 25 years ago resonate right now.
MELBER: Yes, absolutely. Before we let you go, I`d like to do some lightning round. Favorite party Snoop song. Gin And Juice or Beautiful or Drop It Like It`s Hot?
DOGG: Party? Gin and juice.
MELBER: Favorite funky Snoop track. Vapors, Snoop`s Upside Ya Head or P.I.M.P.?
DOGG: Snoop`s Upside Ya Head.
MELBER: Very funky. In a word or a sentence, Dr. Dre?
DOGG: Quincy Jones 2.0.
MELBER: Kanye?
DOGG: Musical genius.
MELBER: Lady of Rage.
DOGG: The Pam Greer of hip hop.
MELBER: Lil Dicky?
DOGG: Greatest white boy basketball player, hip hop star I ever play with.
MELBER: When you were young, the best part of music was --
DOGG: The way it felt. The way it felt so good to me.
[18:50:00]
MELBER" And now the best part of music is --
DOGG: That is actually growing and growing and accepted by all walks of life.
MELBER: Failure to you is?
DOGG: To not try.
MELBER: Success is?
DOGG: Effort.
MELBER: I know I`ll be done when?
DOGG: When God called me on.
MELBER: Being a maverick means?
DOGG: To own it your way and your way only.
MELBER: Snoop Dogg thank you for doing this.
DOGG: Top dog.
MELBER: Appreciate it.
DOGG: Bang, bang.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Top dog, bang, bang, do it your way. That is just some of our new interview drops right now. You can go to MSNBC.com/MAVERICKS or use the Q.R. code on your screen like a menu and you can see the full 40-minute interview. We got into a lot more including more time for politics.
You can also find our other interviews with Dave Grohl, Phoebe Bridgers Samantha Bee, Lee Daniels, Annie Lennox and many more. Go to MSNBC.com/MAVERICKS or search YouTube if you prefer and you can find it all. We have another legal update on the Trump board case in New York after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:55:34]
MELBER: There is news in another Trump legal case. But this is about his company, the Trump organization`s top money person. CFO Allen Weisselberg, now on track to plead guilty and serve up to five months in jail. All from a case that began when the Manhattan D.A. was investigating the larger Trump businesses.
There are reports this could go down this week. There`s also expectation that Mr. Weisselberg would only cooperate regarding the probe of the company separate from Trump himself, where he`s not giving up any information. Now, that is striking because many people on the inside who work with both men say Weisselberg knows what Trump was up to.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that all roads lead to Allen Weisselberg. I mean, all fingers point to him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only few people that in the Trump Organization that know anything about the taxes is Mr. Trump, who knows everything about everything. Allen Weisselberg, the Chief Financial Officer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think he could be the ultimate tour guide into the Trump orbit?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Always Allen Weisselberg on the check.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Weisselberg for sure --
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MELBER: Pleading guilty means Weisselberg becomes a convict and that he is guilty of some of these crimes which relate to basically ducking taxes, hiding benefits, getting compensation through things that most employees never get, like having Donald Trump pay for your kids school, but then not actually paying your fair share in taxes for that.
Now, the prior D.A. Cy Vance went big on this. You may recall he went after the Trump tax returns. That was one of the court battles that went all the way to the Supreme Court, and they won beating Trump. Then when his term ended, there was a big D.A. race in New York, we covered it. And Alvin Bragg won that race. He even said in public and here on THE BEAT, he would follow the facts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I`m a public corruption prosecutor. I prosecuted the majority leader of the state Senate. I prosecuted two mayors, one for bribery, one for campaign finance fraud. And at the attorney general`s office, I led the team that held Trump and his children accountable for the misconduct with the Trump Foundation. So, I go where the facts go.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MELBER: He goes with a facts go and he touted that experience, and he did work on those cases. But here`s the news tonight. This whole case, after all this time, is not ending in a bang, even though they appear to have the goods to convict the money guy. Instead, it`s ending in a whimper because Mr. Bragg oversaw the decision not to even try to prosecute Trump, which raises the question why Weisselberg should be in so much trouble if this was Trump activity.
And lead prosecutors who work for Bragg resigned basically in protests, I`m calling it shameful. And now you have prosecutors doing something that looks somewhat unusual. They are cutting a deal with someone who they say is guilty, who was facing many years in prison, but they`re cutting that deal when they don`t need to without getting his full cooperation.
Now, the point here is not to go after Trump for everything no matter what. And no matter the evidence. The point is to either get the cooperation or go to trial confidently. And by the way, if there isn`t a strong enough case against anyone but Mr. Weisselberg, so be it. Instead, though, this is a sign out of Mr. Bragg`s office that either they don`t feel like being as assertive as they were, or they aren`t that confident they could beat Mr. Weisselberg in a court trial in New York, against a jury of his peers.
There is talk of him serving just five months in jail for this. That`s the legal update. I also want to remind you that we did have Snoop on the show. You may be able to tell how excited about that before, during, and after. And I want to remind you it`s part of a series that we love doing if you go to MSNBC.com/MAVERICKS you can find that new full Snoop Dogg interview, it runs about 40 minutes.
We talk about Donald Trump and why he says Trump really represents a true and real part of America that must be phased. His views on Biden. His view on the Black Panthers and the revolutionary history which we touched on. So, you can see more and all of that if you go to MSNBC.com/MAVERICKS or go on YouTube and you can search -- I`m not afraid to say it Snoop and Melber.
You can always connect with me online @AriMelber and you can go to AriMelber.com to keep in touch with me. Thanks for spending time with us on THE BEAT tonight. That does it for us. "THE REIDOUT" with Tiffany Cross filling in for our friend Joy is up next.
TIFFANY CROSS, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on "THE REIDOUT."
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: He liked cool things. He saw things that he -- so he wanted to take them and he was pretty much able to take them and not just on classified information matters, on all kinds of things that crossed his desk.