Summary
January 6th Committee revealed Trump fans scoping out Capitol took photos of staircases and security checkpoints. GOP lawmaker Barry Loudermilk gave the tour which included a January 6th rioter who threatened lawmakers. Michelle Goldberg and Dan Pfeiffer join THE BEAT with Ari Melber to talk about the primary results in New Mexico stalled as a big lie and the Republican blocking the certification. Ruth Ben-Ghiat joins THE BEAT with Ari Melber to talk about the January 6 hearings that some see as echoes of failed democracies abroad.
Transcript
WALLACE: Thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. We are grateful. "THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER" starts right now.
Hi, Ari.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Hi, Nicolle. Thank you so much. Welcome to THE BEAT. I`m Ari Melber.
We`re tracking the new video evidence showing even more advanced planning for the insurrection including this moment before Trump fans stormed the Capitol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It has begun. Here at the Washington Monument, Washington, D.C. Say hello to Facebook.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, what`s going on, man? Glad to see you, bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is our fearless leader.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, let`s go. Check out my flag I made, guys. Can you see it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There you go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s for a certain person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right. That`s for somebody -- somebody special, somebody special.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Just a sampling of the menacing mood. It continued on with blatant threats against lawmakers. This was all as the insurrection was about to begin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no escape, Pelosi, Schumer, Nadler. We`re coming for you. We`re coming in like white on rice for Pelosi, Nadler, Schumer, even you, AOC. We`re coming to take you out. We`ll pull you out by your hairs. How about that, Pelosi? Might as well make yourself another appointment. When I get done with you, you`re going to need a shine up on top of that bald head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And that`s not just another Trump fan recording their own crimes or what would later be trespassing, the January 6th probe is linking him to a controversial Capitol tour led by an incumbent Republican Congressman Barry Loudermilk on insurrection eve.
This is the surveillance video from that day. It is now evidence in the probe to how planned this attack was and if there was help on the inside. The same man threatening to, quote, "take out lawmakers" with that eerie confidence about how far his plans might go appears to be inside the Capitol doing what looks like reconnaissance, scoping out paths, using the camera as you see there, taking what appears to be photos of a very boring staircase.
At another point he is caught, if you look on the left of your screen there, taking photos of what looks like, at the time, an empty hallway. It`s not exactly a tourist attraction. And here is how the committee puts it at this juncture after all of their investigation. They formally note that the individuals there recorded areas not typically of interest to tourists, hallways, staircases, and security checkpoints."
The details matter. Murder is a crime. When it is pursued, but it fails, attempted murder also a crime. Same for a failed sedition plot. Same for a sedition conspiracy. That`s already been charged whether or not you pull off a sedition. As for targeting lawmakers new evidence shows photos were taken of the office of one of Trump`s most persistent targets that you see here. This is also now evidence. Judiciary chair and one-time impeachment leader, Congressman Jerry Nadler. That`s his office sign, which appears to be, the inference is, an effort to locate him as well as other individuals who serve the United States government, who have government jobs, who take an oath to uphold the Constitution.
This photo taken there of the majority Democratic staff. The footage appears to also show Congressman Loudermilk leading them, pointing, showing something to the man you see there in a red hat near that corner. Another five people also seen coming down an escalator.
Now today the congressman is denying that there was anything nefarious to this. He claims the committee did not even get in touch with him to get his perspective about what really happened. But that also undercuts his credibility because there is a public written letter that was sent to him from the Capitol Police, as an independent law enforcement arm, not identifying what is known right now about that tour as a problem.
Now whether they alone see that as a problem is an evidentiary question. But this new evidence raises other grave concerns amidst two open federal probes in the insurrection and as a final point, remember, on January 5th, the day before what would be the national security event of everyone, including the vice president, coming to do the routine certification. On that day, the 5th, the whole Capitol was officially and formally closed to tourists.
Our coverage begins now with "Washington Post" reporter Libby Casey and former Watergate prosecutor Nick Akerman.
Libby, give us the context of how this is coming out now from the committee and without prejudging anything why at least it does raise grave questions.
[18:05:08]
LIBBY CASEY, THE WASHINGTON POST SENIOR NEWS ANCHOR: And the committee says that it`s asked Congressman Loudermilk to come before them and answer questions, and he hasn`t. And so they`ve released this information publicly now. One of the problems is that Representative Loudermilk`s story has gotten more fleshed out as more evidence has come out. And so at first they weren`t really answering questions in his office about the tour and we`re focusing on this accusation of a reconnaissance tour and just sort of pushing aside that possibility.
Then he was saying that this was a tour for a family with young children. Well, then it came out that they had friends with them. And so more information has come out from the congressman and his office as more evidence has been laid on the table. And so now, of course, there`s this question of the correlation of just if this is the same individual as the committee asserts that it is, what was he talking with the congressman about when he was on this tour?
The congressman is clearly on the tour as well. This wasn`t like a staffer had been delegated to do this. And so the committee is saying they want the congressman to come forward and answer questions before them.
MELBER: Yes, and as you say in the hierarchy of tours, and I worked, you know, on Capitol Hill years back, open tourist tours are the most common and the most mellow because all kinds of people can come in a big group. Staff level tours are a level up because you had to get contact. You can`t just get staff to stop their day jobs at any point to give anybody a tour, or they`d spend a lot of time doing just that.
Having an elected official, the member of Congress, give the tour is really the highest level but for the next highest level which is doing it on the eve of a national security event when the place is closed. So it doesn`t look good for him, although again I`m not foreclosing what his defenses may be. Here`s how he put it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BARRY LOUDERMILK (R-GA): They`ve never sent me a letter asking me, never called me. I would have been glad to talk to them because it was nothing. There`s nothing there.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: But can you explain who you were giving a tour to that day?
LOUDERMILK: Well, it was a family and some guests, folks that they brought from Georgia.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you know who that man was in the video?
LOUDERMILK: I don`t know him. I had never met him before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Nick?
NICK AKERMAN, FORMER WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: This is a pretty weak story, Ari. I mean, this evidence is absolutely damning. First of all, Representative Loudermilk denied ever having given the tour when this first came up. That`s just for starters. But he actually had this family, so- called family, on that tour for several hours. And the only places that they went to were the office buildings and the tunnels that connect the main Capitol.
If you go on a tour of the Capitol, you go on a tour of the Capitol. You go inside. You go to the rotunda. You go into the House. You go into the Senate. But this was not a normal tour. You would get bored out of your gourd if you were doing nothing but looking at tunnels and passageways. And this --
MELBER: Yes, I want to jump in, Nick. I want to jump in to reinforce your point because it`s like sometimes we`re talking about stuff that`s so obvious, the debunking of it almost sounds unnecessary or dumb, but it`s necessary, I think, because of the nature of the dumb defense he gave. And so I just want to underscore what you`re saying.
Yes, this was not a tour group. The reason that those are kind of anodyne, boring hallways is there`s a vast underground walking system that helps members get back and forth from their offices which are not generally inside the Capitol, from heart and other office buildings and get over quickly to vote and back. And that`s just part of working on the Hill. And so when you take people on the tours, you tend to take them to some of the footage people have seen elsewhere, the paintings, the rotunda, the middle, the voting, views of the Senate floor.
That`s all the beautiful historic stuff. And some of it might look like "The Hamilton" set. And here they`re in the most boring, random basement hallway which, again, might not even be called a tour really at all.
AKERMAN: No. By no means. And then you don`t take -- what`s he taking pictures of? He`s taking pictures of security points. He`s taking pictures of tunnels. He`s taking pictures of stairways. And then you`ve got Representative Loudermilk actually pointing out certain things. What was he pointing out? I mean, all of this is extremely suspicious. One in light of his original denial, having said that he gave no such tour, and, secondly, the fact that one of those people is actually on tape, as you pointed out in the beginning of the segment, actually saying that he was going after Pelosi, going after Schumer, et cetera.
So when you put all of the evidence together, this is extremely suspicious and on top of it all it`s consistent with what was going on with the idea that the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers were basically planning a military operation. They went into that Capitol from two different ends lined up as you would if you were conducting a military operation, and a key part of any military operation is to do a surveillance beforehand.
[18:10:09]
So the pieces in the puzzle are starting to come together. We obviously don`t have all the glue that ties it together yet. But I think the committee is on to something really important here.
MELBER: Yes. Yes.
AKERMAN: Really important.
MELBER: And that`s new tonight. And then I also want to turn to the other big news out of today. Steve Bannon who`s still waiting his criminal trial for defying the same committee. He`s back in court today. Lost a bid to try to get the case dismissed. The judge rejecting that. Bannon would go on trial then next month outside the court. Today he vows to basically try to abuse government power and put politicians that he opposes on trial in the future if Republicans win back government.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP SENIOR AIDE: I look forward to having Nancy Pelosi and little Jamie Raskin and shifty Schiff in here at trial answering questions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: There you go. The nicknames, the ad hominem attacks, but it`s not just against sort of the opposing party. Bannon brutally blasting Bill Barr for testifying against Trump. The hearings show, however, that most top aides did cooperate from Jared Kushner and Ivanka as family to Rudy Giuliani who was with Trump to the very end as a loyalist, and that in a very real way puts Bannon and also Mr. Navarro in a tougher spot at their upcoming trials because their defense has to focus on basically attacking the committee`s validity or claiming they have some special privilege which means they wouldn`t have to testify or at least wouldn`t be indicted for it, convicted for it.
Both those claims are severely undermined by other loyal Trump aides who have cooperated apparently because the committee is valid and apparently because they could do so without violating privilege.
Given that legal terrain I go back to you again, Nick. Your response.
AKERMAN: Well, I think it`s pretty self-evident. The judge in this particular case found that the committee was valid. He basically held that the committee was properly constituted, that they had the right to subpoena Bannon, and that it was done properly with a vote of the full House. Essentially the judge said that what the committee did was absolutely legally correct. Secondly, the idea that there was any kind of privilege the judge blew that out of the water, too.
Bannon tried to claim that he was told by one of Trump`s lawyers that he didn`t have to testify and he shouldn`t testify. But there was no real privilege here. Bannon was not a government employee. He was not covered by executive privilege. Executive privilege doesn`t cover an insurrection or any kind of criminal activity. I mean, his defense is a big zero goose egg. There`s nothing to it.
And the idea that he`s going to try and take members of Congress and put them on trial at his trial, he is so mistaken and he`s going to be so sorely misled by the time he gets there, he has no defense whatsoever, which is why this case was approved by the Department of Justice. This is absolutely a slam dunk.
MELBER: And, Libby, your view here as we go from court to the court of public opinion, because a couple of weeks ago the resonance of many of these issues, the cases, Mr. Navarro and Mr. Bannon`s situation, as well as the hearing -- the prep for these hearings was really at best I could observe in measurable ways confined to people who actually really regularly pay attention to this stuff, professionals, people involved, and people who are really interested in the news, and a shout out to people interested in the news.
But as a practical matter, a lot of other people are busy with inflation and post-COVID life and the rest of everything. It wasn`t always top of mind. It seems that, I want your analysis, is there a connection between what`s happening in the Bannon case and the sort of awareness of the validity -- I`m not saying the committee gets everything right. People will make up their minds. But the validity of this committee in court repeatedly upheld combined with 30 million plus Americans actually seeing it do its work and seeing that it looks, unlike some of the other things in D.C. it looks pretty serious, pretty factual, and the Republicans who are involved seem to be there to participate rather than to destroy.
CASEY: Well, let`s hope, Ari, people can care about inflation and their health and wellness and that of their family and still care about saving democracy because part of what the committee is doing is figuring out how to avoid this sort of a crisis from ever happening again.
The important thing, and you`ve laid this out so well about how the judge didn`t find validity in Bannon`s arguments is this. This is a Trump- appointed judge and still he said, no, your arguments hold no weight, Steve Bannon, and the committee is valid. Republicans in the House are trying to -- they`re doing all these like tweets and distraction and noise almost in a childish way, frankly, when the committee is having these hearings, but there are two Republicans on this committee and Kevin McCarthy had a chance to seat members on this committee.
[18:15:02]
He chose not to. The committee went ahead and said this is the work we`re going to do. Agree with it or not, you know, appreciate their findings or not, there are two Republicans, there are seven Democrats. And what`s unique about this committee they can be singularly focused on a common goal rather than seeing the normal tearing apart on a committee that tends to happen along partisan lines.
MELBER: Yes.
CASEY: They may have their disagreements about what the end result should be but they are trying to have these focused hearings where they`re getting to the bottom of things and, you know, Steve Bannon can`t stand in the way of the committee`s process and it doesn`t look like he can stand in the way of his own trial. He`s supposed to go on trial next month.
MELBER: Right. And then the public can see that. DOJ says they`re watching and people can draw their conclusions. The point about McCarthy is one we have covered. This may be one of the greatest legislative, governing and strategic blunders of the modern era. Every time you see McCarthy or anyone on that part, that Team MAGA part doing interviews, doing press conferences, standing outside the committee room, you have to remember they actually silenced themselves and boycotted themselves and sort of canceled themselves out of being in the room.
Whether that makes sense and looks good for them and it allows them to be participants as the hearings stack up only they can decide that call.
Libby and Nick, thank you both for kicking us off tonight.
AKERMAN: Thank you.
MELBER: Absolutely.
We`ve got a lot of special coverage here as we are in the middle of the hearing week. A January 6th convict who actually met with then President Trump in the Oval, he is working on the next coup. Our accountability check is about some breaking news out in the states.
Also, the blueprint for storming the Capitol revealed. We`ll get into that. And on the eve of this next January 6th hearing tomorrow we have an expert who says that there must be consideration of indicting Donald Trump if you want to save democracy. Nothing is out of bounds. We`ll get into all of it. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:21:13]
MELBER: Let`s talk about this in plain English. This probe into the insurrection is about the recent past and it`s about the future. Proponents of law and order always insist that punishing past crime is key to preventing future (INAUDIBLE) see consequences, punishment, jail. That`s what Reagan`s whole Republican law and order agenda was about. The idea is that if some of those people are punished then people who identify with them or look at the example will at least think twice.
And the opposite also being part of that same law and order principle, if people see there are no consequences for something, then that can feel like open season. And that`s just for regular old crime. The stakes are higher for felonies and sedition and treason against the United States of America for overthrowing democracy. As one writer posted online after the insurrection a failed coup without consequences becomes a training exercise.
Now that is why some local news right now tonight is actually national news, which I`m going to tell you right now. Because the new round of Republican efforts to build on that training exercise of last year is now cropping up for real, not hypothetical, not projected. This is happening now in some local races.
Take New Mexico where there is a statewide primary. Experts are saying for the first time this year officials who are supposed to do what was the once routine work of merely pro-forma certifying the results are, some of them, taking the Trumpian tack of defying that mandate, refusing to certify because their party, Republicans, are losing, or because they don`t like the outcome or because they want to make a point about the big lie and normalize this.
Only they can say for certain what`s in their minds. But I can tell you for certain that the certification is now stalled. And Republicans like this person you see here who was convicted for trespassing at the Capitol in recent history is now trying to make history today, trying to wield government power, claiming he doesn`t trust the voting machines. He`s also part of something that is called Cowboys for Trump. Whatever.
They made it all the way to Trump`s Oval Office, as you see in the photo. And he and two other officials, all Republicans, seizing the certification results for a county relating to the governor`s primary race.
Now can they do this? Probably not. I`m not here to alarm you in the wrong way. I`m not here to tell you that that election is about to be completely in doubt, but I`m telling you, without seeing consequences these people, some of them are emboldened. Now the top election official in the state is now taking them to court asking judges to break this alleged interference, to make it stop, to get this stuff certified, and that is a process we will cover.
The way this goes down may look dry. Here are those Republicans, I just showed one of them to you, voting to deny the certifying process for the results that they didn`t like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I make a motion to approve to certify the canvass of the 2022 primary election.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will second that motion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. All in favor say aye. All opposed say nay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nay.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. We are adjourned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Just like that. That is at the local level. It`s not the final word but it`s how that raw power is attempted to be used just like last year. And then you say, well, hold on, does everyone in New Mexico want to go along with this in that county let alone the rest of the state? It is hard to find a lot of support if your position is that you admit, say, that you lost or you hate democracy or you want to steal everything.
[18:25:10]
Most people aren`t going that far in their explanation of what they`re doing even when they are plotting sweeps or coups. So here we get it again. If you haven`t heard about this because it is a local thing I promise you it`s important because it can come all over the country. And in this example we get the familiar push to lie about who might be the winner or lie about conspiracy theories that if believed might make at least some gullible people have doubts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dominion on the state of New Mexico refuses us to inspect the machines from an outside source.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have huge concerns with these voting machines. I really do. I don`t -- I just don`t in my heart think that they can`t be manipulated. I do not trust these machines.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t know if they can be connected to the internet because they won`t allow us to inspect the machines.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I certify stuff that I don`t know is right, I feel like I`m being dishonest because in my heart I don`t know if it is right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And they wouldn`t want to be dishonest. That`s one county in New Mexico. Nearby over in Nevada, two big lie candidates won the Republican primary for Senate and the top election spot there. Over 100 Republicans have won nominations for office this year backing the big lie.
An unchecked coup will, throughout history, we`ve seen, have the tendency to repeat itself sometimes with more support and sometimes with tactics that have been practiced and sharpened.
What the heck are we going to do as a nation? Well, someone who has been in and out of government and politics and understands these issues, Obama veteran Dan Pfeiffer, writing about this very challenges here along with "New York Times" Michelle Goldberg when we`re back in 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: We are back with former senior adviser to President Obama, Dan Pfeiffer. He`s also the co-host of "Pod Save America," a breakthrough podcast, one of the most popular when it debuted in all of political podcasts, and the book is "Battling the Big Lie: How FOX, Facebook and the MAGA Media are Destroying America."
We`re also joined by "New York Times" columnist and friend of THE BEAT, Michelle Goldberg.
Dan, we just walked through what`s happening in New Mexico. Bottom line, people have a lot on their minds. I mentioned there`s a lot going on. Do you view that as a small, random thing in a county or something people should really take seriously to try to prevent more of it?
DAN PFEIFFER, FORMER OBAMA SENIOR ADVISER: This is not a random thing. This is happening all across the country. And it`s not just small local thing bubbling up. There`s an effort from the highest levels of the Republican Party to put in place a more successful plan to overturning the will of the voters. "Politico" reported a few weeks ago that the RNC is recruiting poll watchers to try to overturn votes.
You have insurrectionist candidates like Doug Mastriano in Pennsylvania running for governor. It`s happening everywhere. They are actively and openly planning a more successful version of what they attempted in 2020. Everyone has to be aware. It has to be a focus of these hearings in my view.
MELBER: And Couy Griffin is who I singled out in the setup here, Michelle. Take a look at a little bit more of how he sounded. He`s on this commission declining to certify results.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Couy Griffin, the founder of Cowboys for Trump. Here is what he said about his plans for violence.
COUY GRIFFIN, COWBOYS FOR TRUMP FOUNDER: You know, you want to say that that was a mob? You want to say that was a violence? No, sir. No, ma`am. No, we could have a Second Amendment rally on the same steps that we had that rally yesterday. You know, and if we do, then it`s going to be a sad day because there`s going to be blood running out of that building.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Michelle?
[18:30:00]
MICHELLE GOLDBERG, COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Let me say a couple of things. I mean, first, it`s so -- it`s notable that it`s not even notable anymore when Republican officials basically threatened bloodshed if they don`t get their way. I mean, that has become the focus of Second Amendment activism at this point is the sort of constant unending threat of insurrectionist violence.
But the other piece of it is that I think it`s important -- you mentioned before how sort of boring some of these hearings look. And I think that really -- not I don`t mean the January 6 hearings, I mean, the kind of procedural places where people are refusing to certify elections, and I think that really works to Republicans` advantage, because the next insurrection you know, part of it might look like January 6.
Part of it might look like this storming of the Capitol, but a lot of it is going to look like this eye-glazingly boring, procedural, and bureaucratic minutia that is really a sort of political -- that`s really a sort of political warfare, and that you see the Republican Party, focusing on stacking the apparatus of government, the apparatus of democracy at all levels so that when it comes to it, people who before had just done their jobs on these sorts of commissions and panels.
As a matter of course, will instead gum up the works. I think that you know, what we`re in for in 2024 if a Democrat win is just a complete collapse of the system that we`ve relied on to make democracy function until now.
MELBER: Dan, as mentioned, you work for President Obama, to Michelle`s point about how this works. He was of course president, he`s also a constitutional lawyer who gives great thought to these matters. Here`s what he`s saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On every continent, we are seeing democratic backsliding. On every continent, embolden autocrats are ramping up repression. In my own country, the forces that unleashed mob violence on our Capitol, are still churning up misinformation and conspiracy theories. If we want democracy to flourish, we will have to fight for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Dan?
PFEIFFER: That is exactly right. It is absolutely on the line here. I think Michelle hits on a very important point, which is it is very possible and even likely that on Jan. -- the equivalent of January 6, 2025, we will be able to protect the Capitol from a mob.
We -- that doesn`t really know how to do. Something that we have never dealt with in this country is a county-by-county, precinct-by-precinct, effort driven by the top of one of our political parties to try to deny the White House to the rightful winner of electoral college.
And that is what is happening before us. And it is absolutely something, we have to fight for it to be focused on. And every Democrat with a platform has to be talking about it so that we are aware of what the stakes are.
MELBER: And Dan, given your background and doing these kinds of messaging efforts. I mean, where do you see the committee going? Because on the one hand, they`ve been able to really marshal this fact that evidence-based presentation, we`ve discussed that we`ve covered it here. On the other hand, sooner or later, all hearings come to an end.
And whether they have implicitly or explicitly made the case for indicting anyone directing this, whether that`s political elites in Republican Party, Trump allies, or perhaps the former president. That`s one piece, and then there`s the world has this information. And then it`s -- then what? I mean, given that viewers know, you know, what you`ve done at that presidential level, what else is there to do or does it just fade out, and the next topic replaces it?
PFEIFFER: Well, whether the -- what happened in 2020, and what is -- what they`re working on for 24 states and the headline is ultimately up to Democrats. And everyone who cares about democracy, are we going to give this enough attention?
We`re going to make it part of our message in 2022 because we actually have the ability, if Democrats can win the governorships and secretary of state offices in this -- in the primary battleground states, we will prevent the Republicans from taking control of the election machinery. That is a way to fire up the pro-democracy anti-MAGA extremism, majority of its current use.
I hope the committee will make a forward-looking substantive case about the dangers to our democracy. And then it`s incumbent upon the people who political folks who carry that message forward and keep it in the headlines. Because if it doesn`t, it well -- you`re exactly right, it will fade. We`ll talk about other things and they will be able to pull this off because they will be doing it under the cover of ambivalence.
MELBER: Michelle?
GOLDBERG: I think what you said at the beginning about the example of the law is really important because what we`ve seen so far is a lot of, you know, grossly unconstitutional behavior, and relative impunity for it. It`s why I think that the Justice Department investigation is so important. It`s why I hope that there are some criminal referrals from Congress or some more criminal referrals.
[18:35:00]
That`s also why the investigation in Georgia is so important, because that`s the one place where criminal investigation into Donald Trump really dovetails with his coup attempt in 2020. And, you know, one thing that I think might make some officials a little bit more cavalier about their willingness to discard the will of the voters would be a few people go into jail for it.
MELBER: Yes. And, Michelle, when you look at to that point in the way these conspiracy theories have taken root, does it matter which of them are pursuing a certain end? I mean, many have pointed out the obvious tension between elected Republicans casting doubt on the election that elected them, while taking issue with the same ballots that elected Biden.
I mean, it`s sort of obvious. That`s like the most obvious among many shortcomings, but they allegedly are trying to mollify Trump and then move on. Other people, like we just showed are talking about dominion stuff, some of them seem to believe it. Fox News and others who circulated misinformation face multiple billion-dollar lawsuits, we recorded that last night.
Does it matter in your view is sort of a factual journalist, what is driving these different things, and whether some of them are sort of sloppy and overlap, and some of them are coming out of Trump Maga CENTRAL?
GOLDBERG: Do you mean does -- I think I`m not sure if it matters how much of this subversion is, you know, cynical versus whether it`s driven by true believers. I mean, I suspect that true believers might be more willing to carry it to the bitter end. But I think what we`ve seen all along from Republicans is that their own profound cynicism has enabled anti-democratic forces in this country to get farther than, you know, many of us ever, ever thought that they could.
And so -- and I also think that what we`re seeing over and over again, is that the people who are running for some of these top spots, governor in Pennsylvania, people who are running for secretary of state, they seem like true believers, right? They seem like people who whether or not they -- I`m not sure if they really believe that the 2020 election was stolen.
But I think that they believe that it was illegitimate because Donald Trump didn`t win. I think that they believe that the elections that Democrats win are illegitimate. The Republicans have a fundamental right to rule and anything that will justify -- anything that will get them into power is justified given how evil they`ve convinced themselves the Democratic Party is. But I think that when you`re steeped in that ideology, almost anything can be justified in the name of winning.
MELBER: Yes. Well, we wanted to give this ample time to hear you both out especially given the book. So, I appreciate both of you, Michelle Goldberg, Dan Pfeiffer for the book Battling the Big Lie. When we come back there are new revelations about how the Capitol was stormed, with court documents revealing that. But first, we have a special guest and what do we do about all of this. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:42:41]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS), JANUARY 6 HOUSE COMMITTEE CHAIR: January 6th and the lies that led to insurrection have put two and a half centuries of constitutional democracy at risk. The world is --
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MELBER: Thompson talking about the stakes for democracy, many are paying attention. That first primetime hearing was watched by over 20 million people, then another 10 million for the daytime, plus the wider discussion in the culture, the late-night reaction, and the internet. But what can we learn from the world where we have seen other countries slide away from democracy?
For special discussion here in the middle of these hearings, we`re joined by Ruth Ben-Ghiat a historian of New York University who specializes in fascism, which didn`t make her always in demand in American television, but it does right now. She also is the author of the Lucid, newsletter on Substack. You can see a piece there about the history of coups if you want to check her out there. Thanks for being here.
RUTH BEN-GHIAT, HISTORY PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: Sure.
MELBER: Lessons from abroad, anything come to mind that does apply at the moment we`re at right now where we have a kind of semi-polarized view, in the body politic about how bad.
BEN-GHIAT: There`s a reason that the Republican Party and Tucker Carlson are so enamored of Viktor Orban`s Hungary, and that they just had their CPAC conference in Budapest. Because Viktor Orban is not only in his own fashion, a white nationalist of -- to trying to save white Christianity, but he`s mastered what we call electoral autocracy.
Because today you don`t shut down elections as often. You keep them going, but you kind of gain the system through, you know, kind of staffing the system with loyalists and purging judges and election workers and all kinds of people. Also, he`s domesticated the media so -- and he was just reelected and -- but the opposition candidate hadn`t been invited on national T.V. since 2019.
And this happened over years. So, one lesson for Americans is, you know, these things happen slowly. And sometimes you have a shock event like January 6, which greatly further radicalized the GOP. But there -- it`s a combination of a process where local election by local election, your rights are stripped away.
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And you may not notice it because it`s been happening at the states level. And then -- but this is all a rehearsal for bringing it national. And so, we see that these things happen in a continuum, and they happen over time. But we have to be alert to the warning signs, and we`ve got a lot of warning signs, they`re coming out with these hearings.
MELBER: In examples abroad, you mentioned January 6 as this crystallizing event. Few Americans including, you know, center-right moderate conservative types, on the 6th, the 7th, and the 8th, thought that was going to be the thing that would be more embraced by Republicans and their leaders. We all lived through it so I won`t belabor the point.
Remember, we`ve played what Lindsey Graham and McConnell and others said on the Senate floor that very night. Any lessons from abroad about how history because the control of history, and we saw that example, in Europe and elsewhere, and Putin is obsessed with history, how history appears to give claim to the masses to feel different levels of grievance, and depending on what they`re convinced of they are able to be then justified in their own minds of doing absolutely horrific things.
BEN-GHIAT: Well, yes, in fact, the big lie is going to go into the history books as one of the most successful mass indoctrination campaigns in history. And what it did is that, you know, Trump had already sowed, you know, this doubt about the election system for four years. And he had this politics of grievance. But what the genius of it was, was that he appeared as the person who had been wronged.
And so, January 6, I really see this as the outcome of his personality cult because he summoned his followers. And you know, they were going to make it right, then it`s very compelling in history, see this with all strong men, when they pose as a kind of victim, as a murder. And yet, they`re also the Savior. So, January 6, became this moment in which everything was going to be put right.
Remember, he said, I alone can fix it. And so, it wasn`t. I wasn`t surprised, because I see this as a coup attempt that we heard recently that he was trying to get to the Capitol on January 6, and the secret service had to scramble. Because if you`re the head of a coup, and you`re going to be anointed as the person who made it all right, and brought justice to America because all crews are supposed to be about bringing justice. You have to be there to be with your followers. And so, everything that`s coming out.
MELBER: Since you raise that --
BEN-GHIAT: Go ahead.
MELBER: I`ve just 30 seconds left. How different would it have been if he had gotten there and have stood with the trespassers as they marched in? I mean, technically, they would be trespassing he would not. But he would be potentially more directly involved in the sedition conspiracy of obstructing this peaceful transfer of power.
BEN-GHIAT: He would be and so in a way, you know, most people in Trump`s position, make sure they`re nowhere near so they don`t have a direct liability. In fact, the march on Rome, the first dictatorship, you know, when in 1922, all of the black shirts came in and Mussolini was nowhere to be found. He took a train. So, it`s -- so Trump`s got plenty of history behind his coup attempt and attempt to have plausible deniability and also for incitement of violence and that`s why these hearings are so important.
MELBER: Yes. The history you share is instructive. I will be better listening it`s like the old saying, a toe Mike Pence, a toe, but with the stakes reversed. Good to see you.
BEN-GHIAT: Anytime.
MELBER: Ruth Ben-Ghiat, we`ll have you back. Appreciate it. We`re going to fit in a break. When we come back there have been all these different court cases, newly unsealed documents with new information. We`ll get into that. Stay with us.
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MELBER: New documents coming out of the federal case against a Proud Boys insurrectionist. A secret blueprint called 1776 Returns. Investigators say it was sent to the Proud Boys` leader a week before the riot. It details the plot to occupy buildings with quote patriots, communicate demands, and force a new election, then flood crucial buildings with as many people as possible and calls for insurrectionists to then scope out the buildings. The hearing last week outlined some of the Proud Boys` activities that day.
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THOMPSON: They walked around the Capitol that morning. I`m concerned, this allowed them to see what defenses were in place and where weaknesses might be.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, for awareness. Be advised, there`s probably about 300 Proud Boys. They`re marching eastbound.
THOMPSON: A simple question is whether the attack on the Capitol was coordinated and planned.
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MELBER: Things new filings discuss how quote, patriots were told to cause trouble near the front doors, distract guards, and then the masses could enter. The document includes a map, which is chilling and shows building targets. It`s unclear, though, who authored this plan or how it got to the Proud Boys` leader. But it also tracks with what happened on January 6.
It`s part of these ongoing federal prosecutions for seditious conspiracy that target the leader of the Proud Boys and some of his associates. We also have one more update that I got, you may recall we`ve been discussing many democracy issues today. A breaking news item out of New Mexico, the Supreme Court ruling against those Republican county officials that you see on your screen.
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We mentioned this case was filed. They got an emergency injunction that`s faster than usual ordering them to certify that as a loss for the Republicans there on that commission who were citing doubts about dominion and other voting issues to try to stall the election.
When we came on the air, the court had not ruled, now it has. Dealing them that blow. And that`s an update I wanted to get you because it broke here in our hour on THE BEAT with Ari Melber. Our time is up. "THE REIDOUT" with Joy Reid is up next.
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JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, on THE REIDOUT.
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REID (voiceover): The January 6th committee is connecting the dots. The guy you just heard making threats on January 6th is the same guy who appeared to be doing surveillance in the Capitol the day before.