Summary
Former White House counsel Pat Cipollone and Dustin Thompson testified to January 6th Committee, as new evidence connected to Trump close associate Roger Stone showed advance planning to storm government buildings on January 6th. New York subway shooter arrested after 30 hours of manhunt. Pentagon press secretary on new $800 million in military aid to Ukraine as the Russians focuses on the east. Former Obama campaign manager on the former president`s advice to the Democratic Party ahead of the midterm elections. After pushing the big election lie of voter fraud, the former White House chief of staff was removed from the North Carolina voter rolls for trying to vote in more than one place at once.
Transcript
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: Thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. We are grateful. THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER starts right now.
Hi, Ari.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Hi, Nicolle. Thank you so much. Welcome to THE BEAT. I am Ari Melber.
We are tracking several stories. The New York subway shooter arrested today. We have more on that tonight. A manhunt that ends with success and what comes next in the investigation. That`s coming up this hour.
But we begin right now with progress in a different investigation. The one into the insurrection. Now if you follow the developments into the probe of that violent effort to overthrow democracy, you`ve heard plenty about clashes over those resistant and defiant witnesses, and the unusual path holding them accountable because, remember, most veterans of the U.S. government in both parties engage with lawful subpoenas and probes even when they have major objections.
It is a feature of this Trump era that several of these former officials and others are just openly defying the probe leading to contempt of Congress citations and already one criminal indictment for Steve Bannon. But here is the thing. Those stories draw attention because they`re unusual. Not only across history but they`re unusual inside this probe. And that`s something I want you to remember as we turn to a big development tonight. Because the House committee continues to sit most of these witnesses down, including recently Trump`s own family members and grill them and get evidence and fact check them and compare notes.
That process is playing out in the vast majority of the time it`s working. Today something very important happened. The lawyers who serve at the very top of Trump`s White House went through that same process as Jared and Ivanka and so many others. Today two of them facing a grilling by the January 6th Committee, Trump`s White House counsel Pat Cipollone, a key player who saw the signs of extreme and possibly unconstitutional moves, and tried to stop some of them, according to the evidence.
You may recall Bill Barr when attorney general shut down Trump`s last ditch voter fraud claims as baseless, as basically lies. Cipollone then had to push back on a plot to try overrule or outmaneuver Barr by naming some new special prosecutor who might then disagree with what DOJ had found, back lies about voter fraud and that might somehow fit into all of the January 6th shenanigans.
There is evidence he threatened to resign as well, a pattern that his predecessor used to try to thwart other illegal or possibly illegal plans by Donald Trump, and if that rings a bell it`s because Bob Mueller uncovered that very feature during his investigation. That was the prior White House counsel, Don McGahn, who became something of a star witness in the Mueller probe. So this committee is making progress, reaching witnesses, gathering evidence and that continues, an important accountability process that is going however slowly sometimes, alongside the DOJ`s criminal investigation and prosecutions.
And those started slowly, too, as we`ve reported. But they may also be intensifying. That`s why with a lot of stories you have to kind of see how they develop. What was true last year may evolve into something a little different in the portrait of the story this year or right now. Because there`s this damning accusations against Trump surfacing in some of these criminal trials. And some of these accusations are coming from Trump`s own insurrectionist foot soldiers as a defendant now accusing Trump of authorizing the attack in a new court statement.
That`s from Dustin Thompson, his lawyer, says any action that he took was because the defendant, quote, "believed the lies." The defendant testified that he viewed all of his actions on the 6th as, quote, "following presidential orders," adding, I felt obligated to do what Trump demanded. I felt obligated to do that.
Now, let`s keep it real. That defense has a kind of a logic. I mean everyone does know that Trump told the people to march on the Capitol and Trump told Pence to help steal the election and Trump lied about all that voter fraud as a pretense to try to stay in power and Trump had people around him planning a coup. They`ve admitted parts of it. So the fans who marched on the Capitol can argue they took that next logical step of storming it like they knew Trump wanted, like a lot of people think Trump wanted, like Trump seemed to demand.
So that`s the logic part, I`m using that word very carefully because that type of defense may not have much legal stamina. Private citizens don`t usually get to just do crime because they think or feel that a politician requested it. Indeed, these so-called following orders defense has a very bad history even for people in government when it is linked to blatant violence or worse. Then there is another court filing that`s new that`s shedding light on how premeditated this attack was.
The FBI has new evidence taken out of the phone of one of those Proud Boys leaders and it has a discussion of revolution, a plan to occupy government buildings on the 6th. The Proud Boys leader writes, quote, "You want to storm the Capitol."
[18:05:05]
That`s pretty specific and that`s in advance. And that`s where things are really heating up. If you`re watching and going, OK, Ari, it kind of sounds like you`ve got a couple of things coming together here that you`re telling me about. Yes. It`s one thing for a random trespasser to say they responded to Trump`s demands and the debate I just mentioned about the logic in the orders. It`s sounds bad but it may not be bulletproof evidence of a secret operational plan to have violence support a coup.
Let me tell you something. It`s a whole another thing when these militia leaders start turning on each other and secret evidence starts coming out to show what may be, and again we`re going to follow the evidence but has the outlines of operational planning in advance. You`ve heard about following the money. Well, here the DOJ is following the blueprint. Who wrote it. Who shared it. And did it ultimately reach Trump aides or Trump himself?
And then you have that big time story new this week. An aide to Trump`s longest serving adviser Roger Stone who of course has also had legal troubles and been convicted of different crimes, well, this individual who works with Stone caught on tape making a plea to Trump supporters to descend on the Capitol in a secret call, and that was a full week before January 6th. That is bad. That is pretty damning evidence.
That is why Congress also right now is literally debating through this committee whether to refer Donald Trump for potential criminal prosecution. A process where Mr. Trump is legally presumed innocent but where in a referral the DOJ must, as a legal matter, treat him like any other person to determine if, if there is sufficient legal evidence to indict him, to seek his trial and if convicted, and if warranted, to seek his incarceration.
This is serious stuff. That is no small question.
I want to bring in our experts. Former civil prosecutor Maya Wiley, who we should note is the incoming president and CEO of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, and former Watergate prosecutor Nick Akerman.
I put the question to you, Nick.
NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT WATERGATE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: -- where we are with all of this. I think we`re in a really serious position at this point because we`ve got evidence now of both the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, we`ve got people who are cooperating in those trials, so we`ve got this whole business going on with DOJ and then we`ve got what`s going on with the January 6th Committee, which is very significant, which is uncovering all kinds of evidence.
And what I think ought to happen here is they ought to follow the model kind of in reverse, as to what we did in the Watergate prosecution, where we put together all of the evidence on Nixon and sent it to Congress so that Congress could decide what direction they would go with impeachment.
Here, I think with the January 6th Committee ought to do is put together all of the evidence they have on Trump. They don`t have to make a recommendation. But they simply ought to put that evidence together in a chronological order, just like we did with Nixon, and give that to the Department of Justice. That`s how I think this ought to work because much of this investigation at least into the Trump people and the people at the top has come from the January 6th Committee.
MELBER: And Nick, your view, though, is that that should be a criminal referral or just a book report?
AKERMAN: I don`t think it has to necessarily be a criminal referral. When we referred our evidence to the Congress on Richard Nixon, we didn`t say, it`s a referral. It was simply an outline of the evidence showing Richard Nixon`s involvement in the Watergate cover-up. Again, here I think what the committee has to do is put together the evidence that they have gathered and put it together with the testimony, put it together with the documents, and refer that to the Department of Justice so they can make up their mind as to whether and what to present to a federal grand jury.
MELBER: Yes.
AKERMAN: That`s how it ought to be done. That way they get away from the whole political problem of having to recommend and put the onus on --
MELBER: Well, I don`t know -- respectfully, Counselor, I don`t know that in 2022 you will ever get away from accusations of political problems. I don`t know that legally, I mean, I`m going to say this the most respectful way I can, Nick, you sound a little bit like Bob Mueller which is both a compliment and a -- in that you`re saying, well, gosh, if we`re really careful, then we can`t possibly be accused of whatever.
And it`s like, look at how people talk, look at the politics, in the world now. Now having said that, I`ll let Nick respond but I want to bring Naya in on the tapes. Are there tapes? Yes. We`re getting more and more of this. And this is just what`s leaking on public. Here with some of that Roger Stone aide`s tape.
[18:10:08]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JASON SULLIVAN, FORMER ROGER STONE AIDE: He is going to do something and it`s going to be to where people are actually going to be arrested. He very well may call it an Insurrection Act, but there may be -- I foresee a limited form of martial law and I don`t see any other way around it. Biden will never be in that White House. That`s my promise to each and every one of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Maya?
MAYA WILEY, INCOMING PRESIDENT AND CEO, THE LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE ON CIVIL AND HUMAN RIGHTS: Well, Joe Biden is in the White House. So that`s the good news is it didn`t work. What`s more dangerous here is Roger Stone, and you said it earlier, Ari, alluded to it, Roger Stone has always been the linchpin in the apparent criming of Donald Trump. Right. This was in Ukraine, remember, it was Roger Stone with some of the exchanges about the Ukraine and Zelenskyy, and getting them involved in going after Hunter Biden in order to help the president -- former President Donald Trump win.
And you know, we`re hearing the same thing. Remember that we saw Roger Stone also with white supremacists frankly and extremists as his bodyguards, taking photos with them. The same folks that are getting prosecuted and he is actually the one who is active in organizing and helping to organize both in the war room and the day of January 6th. So I think the question becomes to what extent is there more direct communication between them and say Roger Stone who is also having direct conversations with Donald Trump.
Because, you know, I think what prosecutors are going to have to do if they want to charge the president directly, at least if we`re talking about the insurrection, sedition as opposed to corruptly interfering with Congress, right. Two different criminal charges that Donald Trump could face. Then they are going to need to find evidence that we have not yet heard that directly tie conversations between the president and his henchmen with these folks that are being prosecuted now.
MELBER: Nick?
AKERMAN: Yes, I totally agree with Maya. It`s absolutely critical and Roger Stone is a central figure here. Roger Stone basically was kind of involved in the same kind of work back in the Bush versus Gore campaign where he was kind of organizing that Brooks Brothers riot to keep the vote being counted in Miami-Dade. This is right up Roger Stone`s alley. He was there acting as a surrogate for Donald Trump, reporting back to Donald Trump I`m sure, which is why we don`t see any phone calls during that seven-hour period during the riot. Roger Stone of course was very careful to keep himself out of the mix by leaving town before the riots started.
But he has been in the center of everything. Most notably with respect to the Russian interference in the 2016 election. He was the only person in America that was corresponding and talking directly to Guccifer 2.0 who was the Russian operative that was in charge of all the documents that were stolen from the Democratic National Committee. And he was the only person in America that was communicating with WikiLeaks and relaying this information to Donald Trump.
And he`s also the person that was convicted of covering up for Donald Trump as the judge famously said in his case. So I think Maya is right.
MELBER: Yes.
AKERMAN: I mean, if you follow the trail here, from Donald Trump down to these other people, or up to Donald Trump from these other people, most notably Roger Stone, I think that is where you`re really going to find the connection. Now whether you can prove that beyond a reasonable doubt and whether they could come up with the proof, that is the big question.
Maya is right. We haven`t seen that evidence that connected Donald Trump directly to the violence. You know, he`s destroyed some of it with respect to those phone calls. Some people I`m sure are not talking. You`ve got Peter Navarro who has set up this whacko defense, where basically they were just trying to follow the Constitution and the statute, and they didn`t really like the violence because it was contrary to their entire plan, which is really nothing more than an alibi in a defense that he`s setting up for Donald Trump and others that were around him that were involved in the plot.
MELBER: Right. And they`re trying to sort of hand it off, different pieces of it, in their mind. I`m out of time, but, Maya, I think I saw your pet cat. Is that correct? Does she have anything to add?
WILEY: She thinks Donald Trump is guilty.
MELBER: OK. And, look, as I mentioned, well, let`s see her again. What`s her name?
[18:15:01]
WILEY: This is Basta (PH). Say hi.
MELBER: There we go. The Zoom era. We love it. I`ll tell you. As I mentioned earlier, wherever the case goes, people are legally presumed innocent. I mentioned that with great care. But your cat can have her own view of things and I would trust that you as the whisperer would know it better than anyone else.
A little dash of something different here amidst the rest of it. Maya, Nick, always good to see you.
WILEY: Good to see you.
AKERMAN: Thank you.
MELBER: Absolutely.
We have another piece of good news for so many in New York. That gunman caught, apprehended as jaw-dropping new details about how the police got on the case. Joyce Vance is here. And big news on American Humvees and helicopters headed to Ukraine. We have the Pentagon spokesman who knows exactly what President Biden is trying to do over there. John Kirby joins me live tonight.
And Barack Obama wades into politics. He doesn`t do that very often but he has ideas for of course Biden and the Democrats. We have Obama`s former campaign manager David Plouffe, my special guest tonight, as you can see. We think it`s a big show. We got a lot coming up. So stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:20:29]
MELBER: That New York City subway shooter is now in custody. It was 30 hours at large but Frank James was then arrested right in the center of Lower Manhattan. That`s a very busy area. He`s facing federal charges for a dangerous weapon, intent to cause death or bodily injury on a mass transit system, facing up to 20 years if convicted, of shooting 10 in a terrifying attack yesterday morning that could have killed, although no one was killed.
Police sources tell NBC they think James called the Crime-Stoppers tip line on himself, reportedly saying this is Frank, you guys are looking for me. My phone is about to die. The tip led to his arrest. James questioned today at the Ninth Precinct and then walked out of the Manhattan precinct. He will be officially charged in a federal court tomorrow in Brooklyn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR ERIC ADAMS (D), NEW YORK CITY: To my fellow New Yorkers, we got him. We got him.
KEECHANT SEWELL, NYPD COMMISSIONER: Frank Robert James was stopped on the street and arrested by members of the New York City Police Department. Officers in response to a Crime-Stoppers tip stopped Mr. James. He was taken into custody without incident. We were able to shrink his world quickly. There was nowhere left for him to run.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The police speaking about the way they were able to do a lot of surveillance and footwork, and they felt that he had nowhere to go. You heard there. Detectives say there is a lot of evidence that connects him to the crime, including the gun, ammunition at the scene traced back to James already. He bought that gun over 10 years ago in Ohio. There also are surveillance videos, there`s one we`re going to show you of James entering a subway station, that`s moments before opening fire.
Police say he fled the scene, got on a train across the platform and then departed at another stop in Brooklyn. The rest comes after some very disturbing YouTube videos of the suspect have surfaced showing long rants about death, a desire to kill, a, quote, "race war," and talk of even targeting the mayor you just saw announcing his apprehension, the new mayor of New York City, Eric Adams.
Law enforcement officials say the investigation is ongoing. They do not know an exact motive. They`re asking people who might know anything to still contact the police because they have him. But they want to gather as much information as possible about what was motivating him and what else they might learn about keeping these streets safe.
I`m joined now by former U.S. attorney Joyce Vance. Among other work, she assisted in that national manhunt for a domestic terrorist, Eric Rudolph, back in 1998.
Your view of the police work here that went down in such a big city?
JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: You know, it can be difficult to find someone in a place like New York City. But law enforcement folks -- and this is state and federal folks working together -- did a great job here. Your immediate concern in the aftermath of an incident like this is making sure the public is safe. So you want to identify the people who are involved in committing the crime. You want to take them into custody as safely as possible and make sure that any threat they may have left behind has been dealt with so that you can reassure citizens that they are safe in the city that they live in.
MELBER: I want to play a little bit of some of the reporting we`ve seen, New York is a place that is sometimes perceived from afar as perhaps more dangerous or kind of unexpected like anything could happen than I think people feel if they spend time there and yet this was a harrowing incident to be sure.
I want to play just a little bit of Chris Jansing`s reporting on how people are feeling. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I live upstairs on 36th and (INAUDIBLE), and I always felt that the government were working, that that`s the protection for the customers and that you could work and something happened, they would help you. But now I come down today, and I`m working and that bothers me a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s scary to be on the subway right now. Obviously I don`t really know what the answer is. But something has to be done. I don`t know if it is the police presence or if we`re just focusing on the wrong sort of things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Your reaction to that and any context you want to share as a prosecutor. You`ve worked hand in glove with federal agents, FBI, others where you obviously deal with any crimes that occur and you also try to do things to aid in prevention, to aid in public safety. That`s the whole point, and I think everyone could identify with that the sheer terror here when we -- the subway, you have kids on there, you have people on there. It`s how people get around.
What context do you see here in folks like we just heard who are reacting to this or feeling really scared and shook up?
[18:25:07]
VANCE: Well, we`ll see their reactions reflected in the charges that will be filed in federal court. These -- this is a relatively rarely used charge, Ari, that involves a terroristic act or a violent act perpetrated against mass transportation, and the testimony of the people who were on the subway car, people who were impacted by this incident will help to establish that that`s precisely the sort of serious treatment that this incident deserves.
I`m glad to see it being dealt with as a federal crime, not as a state crime, although there are likely going to be charges in both different venues. You know, one of the problems that law enforcement has early on in a setting like this is that you want to make the arrest, you want to go ahead and find someone and bring them into custody. Simultaneously, you need to preserve the admissibility of the evidence that you`re going after.
So when you`re identifying, for instance, your perpetrator, you have to be careful that you don`t violate their rights and that can involve some technical things like making sure that you`re showing witnesses multiple photos, not just showing on one photo and saying, is this the guy. So you have to go fast but you`ve got to do it right at the same time because ultimately you want to make the community safe and you want to hold the people responsible accountable.
MELBER: Yes. And then there is the video part of this. People in big cities are quite familiar with all the video cameras indeed. There is plenty of valid concerns about what sometimes seems like excessive videos between private and corporate use which might not be for our safety, it`s just for other reasons, as well as government surveillance, right? We have this whole idea of a surveillance state. Then -- Joyce, you see where I`m going with this -- the time where a lot of people would want it in a public zone that doesn`t get into privacy issues as much.
I`m reading here New York officials have been warning about the security camera problem years before this. A pair of inspections showed warnings that the subway system security cameras were at the risk of malfunction. They found the MTA failed to ensure preventative maintenance, timely repairs on thousands of the cameras.
This is I guess the easy question, Joyce, but it`s important for people to understand it and in whatever cities they are, that`s kind of the dry, ordinary maybe not in the headlines stuff that apparently would have mattered a lot.
What`s your view of that? The new mayor might want to have to look into that as well if this has been something that they were on notice about.
VANCE: Well, I`ll stay out of the surveillance state question for now. It`s complicated and probably a discussion for another day.
MELBER: Sure.
VANCE: But if you`re a law enforcement agency that decides to use these sorts of techniques to enhance public safety, then certainly you`ve got an obligation to maintain them. But let me take the side of law enforcement here and just say our budgets, our federal and state budgets, they are moral documents, they tell us where our values live. And if we do not choose to fund this sort of equipment, you know, it can be everything from cameras that police officers wear on their bodies, to this sort of surveillance when we make decisions about what gets funded and what doesn`t, then ultimately we see downstream implications.
We don`t know here whether this was some flaw in the police department itself and its upkeep on its equipment, or whether the blame lies someplace else but that is something that New York City`s new mayor will have to confront in the next few days I suspect.
MELBER: Yes. Well put and yes, I appreciate the wider other debate is not part of this breaking story per se. But we have you on a lot for good reason, Joyce. So maybe we`ll get into that another day. Thanks for joining us.
VANCE: Thanks, Ari.
MELBER: Absolutely. Appreciate it.
Later tonight, we turn to Obama`s new advice to Democrats but next we go inside the Biden administration. Admiral Kirby joins me from the Pentagon in just 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:03]
MELBER: Turning to the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine, President Biden spoke with President Zelenskyy today. That`s ahead of a new wave of U.S. Military support, the United States said it will be a matter of massive help because there will be $800 million worth of military hardware going to Ukraine, that includes new armored Humvees, helicopters, howitzer cannons, and drones.
Meanwhile there is a European report today detailing new evidence of Russian war crimes citing the bombing of that maternity hospital in Mariupol and a theater that was clearly marked as a bomb shelter for civilians, not a military target. The report also has documentation of those disturbing allegations and evidence of rape and torture committed by Russian soldiers.
You may recall when President Biden for the first time had suggested Russia`s actions were war crimes, now he says it could be genocide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I called it genocide because it has become clearer and clearer that Putin is just trying to wipe out the idea of even being a Ukrainian. Horrible things that the Russians have done in Ukraine and we`re only going to learn more and more about the devastation, and we`ll let the lawyers decide internationally whether or not it qualifies but it sure seems that way to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: We turn now to a veteran of several administrations, retired admiral and Pentagon press secretary John Kirby.
Thanks for joining me.
JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Yes, sir. I`m glad to be with you.
MELBER: First, what can you tell us about this U.S. Military support going to Ukraine?
KIRBY: Well, it`s another $800 million that the president has now authorized. This on top of a previous $800 million that he did just in the middle of March. And that material is -- should be finishing getting to Ukraine here in next couple of days. So this is a new $800. It has new capabilities and some not-so-new capabilities. Things that we know they have been using quite effectively like Javelins, but the new capabilities were really designed to help them in the fight that they`re in now and will be in coming days and weeks in the Donbas, in that eastern part of the Ukraine where we know the Russians are now redoubling their efforts.
So things like howitzers and 40,000 artillery rounds to go along with it. Things like counter artillery radar and mobile air defense radar systems, as well as more UAV`s and even some unmanned surface vessels that will help them with coastal defense in the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov. So again we`re really focusing this package much more closely on the fight today given what the Russians have now done in terms of reprioritizing their efforts in the east.
MELBER: Yes, you mentioned the Donbas, the east, the reporting as well as public references to U.S. intelligence about that being the focus. Does the Pentagon now view that as Putin`s goal for an off-ramp, to take part of the country and stop?
KIRBY: It is very unclear right now. We don`t know whether it is exactly that. Try to get the Donbas, get that land bridge to Crimea, and then stop and say -- and declare a victory? Or is it to get some more negotiating leverage at the table? They haven`t negotiated in good faith. So that`s not clear. Or is it to grab that kind of territory and then to pause and then try to assault more in the rest of Ukraine and make another move on Kyiv?
It`s not clear. What is clear is we want the Ukrainians to be able to defend every inch of their territory and they already have. These new capabilities that the president authorized will help them in that fight in the east.
MELBER: At the intersection of your job at the Pentagon and diplomacy, which people may recall you have experience with as well, we see these reports about Finland and Sweden considering joining NATO. That could be a setback for Russia. We see the reporting as the "Times" put it, instead of crushing Ukrainian nationalism, Putin has perhaps enhanced it. Instead of weakening this Trans-Atlantic alliance, he solidifies, instead of dividing NATO, quote, and blocking its growth, he has unified it.
Does the Biden administration view this as a positive way to push Putin back or as a NATO issue that you don`t necessarily want on the front burner right now?
KIRBY: I think, you know, look, the one thing that Mr. Putin said he didn`t want, he`s getting. He`s getting a strong united resolve NATO right on his western flank. And that is what he said he didn`t want. He`s creating this resolution among NATO allies to stand up for one another. We have added 20,000 more American troops to the European continent to bolster the NATO eastern flank. Now you have countries like Sweden and Finland which are more openly now discussing the possibility of joining NATO.
I think this is exactly what Mr. Putin didn`t want. And I can tell you that what we want, for the alliance and what we want for our capabilities inside of the alliances is to make sure that Mr. Putin knows as President Biden has said, we will defend every inch of NATO territory and we`re making good on that promise. As I said, 20,000 more troops, dozens more aircraft, we now have a carrier strike group in the Mediterranean.
We haven`t one, you know, stationed in the Mediterranean at least temporarily for a long, long time. So again we`re taking those commitments very seriously.
[18:35:03]
MELBER: And Admiral, we showed the new comments from the president about a genocide, accusing Putin of genocide. He`s previously labelled him a war criminal. But as you know, there is no way to hold a foreign official or leader on trial for those war crimes or genocides without an international criminal court. There is no other venue that currently exists. Under this administration and previous ones, the U.S. isn`t a part of that.
Why does the Pentagon continue to oppose the United States joining the International Criminal Court which would advance potentially that kind of trial?
KIRBY: I think I would just speak to the concerns we`ve had in the past about the court and the possibility of -- possible prosecutions of American troops in war and in Iraq and Afghanistan and that`s been a long-standing concern of the United States Department of Defense. But look, in terms of Ukraine, we in DOD, we across the interagency and in the administration are doing what we can to document and collect the evidence of these war crimes.
We`ve said very clearly in just the last couple of weeks that Russian forces are in fact committing war crimes. You don`t have to look any further than your network to see the evidence and the proof of that. And we`re going to help collect that evidence. We`re going to make sure it`s available to investigators, international investigators as we go forward.
MELBER: But to be clear, I just want to make sure we understand, though, when the president says war criminal, that has not changed the Pentagon`s position that war criminal or not, there won`t be U.S. support for the ICC to told that trial, to deal with the evidence you just referenced?
KIRBY: Well, I won`t speak for the entire U.S. government but here in the Pentagon, we`ve been clear about our concerns about the ICC and some of their activities and the potential ramifications for American service men and women who are serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think we`ve been very clear about that. But again, there are clear war crimes going on in Ukraine. We`re going to help contribute to the administration`s effort to document that, to collect that evidence so that it can be used by appropriate international tribunals going forward.
MELBER: Understood. I know those are complex international issues. We did want to get you on the record on all these items and we do understand how busy a time it is for you and your colleagues so I appreciate you joining us, Admiral John Kirby.
KIRBY: Yes, sir. Glad to be with you.
MELBER: Thank you, sir.
We`re going to fit in a break. When we come back, we`re going a whole different direction. Why Barack Obama is telling Democrats he`s got advice, tout the wins, and the guy who gives him advice, David Plouffe, the architect of Obama`s White House wins, is here on all of it, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:41:58]
MELBER: There is a lot going on, but it`s always a big deal when a former president dips into politics. Indeed Presidents Bush and Obama largely avoid that. President Trump does his own thing, but every so often Obama will, prodded by questions or for other reasons just kind of talk politics, and that`s what did he with our colleague NBC`s Al Roker in this new interview that touched on the upcoming midterm elections.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL ROKER, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: What do you think is going to happen in this midterm election?
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT: Well, it`s too early to say. I think the Biden administration has overcome some extraordinary circumstances. COVID, the economy, and now most recently Ukraine, and they have handled the policy right. But, look, understandably, people feel exhausted by COVID. And that`s going to dampen the mood of a country.
Inflation is a real issue. A lot of it is having to do with -- COVID and supply chains and now Putin`s gas tax essentially by virtue of his invasion of Ukraine. But the underlying economy, there is a good story to tell. The Democrats have to go out there and tell the story, but ultimately the voters decide on this thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And now we turn to former Obama campaign manager David Plouffe, often called the architect of Obama`s two White House wins.
Welcome back, sir.
DAVID PLOUFFE, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Good to see you, Ari.
MELBER: It`s borderline silly to ask you if he`s right, but I will. Is he right? Do you share that view? He does sound in all realness a little concerned.
PLOUFFE: Well, I think you have -- listen, in any competitive enterprise, you have to be honest about where you are. Your strengths and your weaknesses, and there`s no doubt that the political climate right now is challenging.
MELBER: Yes.
PLOUFFE: He`s right. A lot of the country is exhausted. I do think the Biden administration has done, we should all be very grateful, that they`re in place but the politics of this are challenging because even though the unemployment rate is low, you know, over 60 percent of Americans live paycheck to paycheck, and their paycheck is not going as far.
MELBER: No.
PLOUFFE: So that`s going to cause political head winds. People don`t vote on stats. I mean, listen, in 2012, you might remember, Barack Obama won re- election with unemployment almost at 8 percent. For two reasons. The trend was positive and that inflation begins to recede over time that trend is going to be important, and disqualified at least in the minds of enough voters Mitt Romney as an acceptable alternative. So that`s the other point --
MELBER: But let me --
PLOUFFE: -- Barack Obama was right. You got to tell the public --
MELBER: David, I`m going to jump in to --
PLOUFFE: Yes.
MELBER: I`m going to jump in to push back, though, because you make an interesting comparison. But wasn`t some of your success in that period that you didn`t own the origin event that the crash was during the campaign, you came in to fix it and then said, hey, look, we`re fixing it? With regard to -- it is complicated. But with regard to inflation and some of these current economic macro problems, they have really begun under Biden and isn`t there the risk of more voters fairly or not hit him for that in a way that`s different than the example you say?
[18:45:02]
PLOUFFE: Well, I don`t think so. Well, first of all, listen, I saw in our research in 2012, yes, Barack Obama inherited a financial crisis. But they put it squarely on him to fix it. So you don`t really get to blame, you know, the origin. I`d say this. COVID, you know, predated the Obama administration. The economic -- or the Biden administration.
MELBER: Biden.
PLOUFFE: The economic collapse. And so, no, I think they can tell a very powerful story, Democrats, of the firefighting that they`ve done. But then you have to say, but let`s compare the alternative. If the Republicans get control, you think they`re going to make lives better for you and your family? So I think Barack Obama is right. The first side of the story is putting into context what you`ve done, how it`s improved things in America, but this is a competitive exercise. Particularly when you have challenging head winds. You have to turn this election into a choice, or you`re going to not like the outcome very much.
MELBER: Yes. Then there`s Mitch McConnell eyeing the same upcoming midterms. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): It`s a perfect storm of problems for the Democrats because it`s an entirely Democratic government which leads you to ask the question, how could you screw this up? It`s actually possible. You can`t nominate somebody who is just sort of unacceptable to a broader group of people and win. We that had experience in 2010 and 2012.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: It`s Mitch McConnell, so as you know he has a kind of way of speaking. It`s dry, it has deniability, but do you think he`s talking about the QAnons and the Sarah Palins, because, boy, a generic R would seem to do better than some of these that are currently running -- we counted up yesterday -- 26 states?
PLOUFFE: No question, Ari. I mean, he has seen that nightmare of a movie twice before where Republicans certainly would have won control with some margin. But they nominated people out of the extreme. So you ask, what could change between now and when people start voting in October in many states? One is the macro environment gets better. Inflation begins to recede, Covid really is in the rearview mirror.
Secondly, the Republicans nominate a bunch of people in House and Senate races that aren`t acceptable. Third is an event, you know, if the Supreme Court does outlaw abortion in this country, I don`t even think we can begin to understand the politics of that, but I think it creates something quite powerful in the country politically.
So there are some big things that could happen here. But yes, he`s absolutely right. And the Senate is going to be close. So if they end up nominating just a couple of people, that are unacceptable compared to traditional Republicans, it could cost them the Senate. So he`s seen that. You know, 2010, 2012, which is rape apologists, basically people out of the nutcase farm, and they`re at risk of having a bunch of those people nominated again this year.
MELBER: So I`m out of time. But that witch ad not a good idea.
PLOUFFE: Never a good idea to compare yourself to a witch in American politics, or I guess any politics.
MELBER: Yes. It`s a deep cut but memorable. David Plouffe, always good to see.
We`re going to fit in a break, when we come back, why Donald Trump`s top aide is in the soup for actual voter fraud problems and facing accountability.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:52:32]
MELBER: In other news, top Trump aide Mark Meadows booted from the voter rolls in North Carolina. The state -- in North Carolina. The state is investigating these allegations that he, yes, committed voter fraud. This represents possible accountability for the former chief of staff. He has been pushing a big lie and championing all kinds of false claims about other people doing what he is now credibly in the soup for, committing voter fraud.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK MEADOWS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Do you realize how inaccurate the voter rolls are which just people just moving around? But when you look at North Carolina and ballot harvesting like happen there and it was fraudulent. Well, we`ve got states that actually are doing things that you would qualify as a scam.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Hey, Mark, why do you know so much about it? You may be telling on yourself? Now that`s his view or his projection. When you go on a broader level there has not been documented evidence of wide spread voter fraud in this past or other recent elections. It`s generally been quite isolated and has not been anything like the amount that could tip a race.
The North Carolina Board of Elections, though, did find records that Meadows lived and voted in Virginia in `21 which is why he`s booted off North Carolina`s rolls. He`s trying to potentially vote in more places than he can. Officials are also investigating over reports that he registered in 2020 using the address of a residence that he did not live in, ever, and did not own which is a stretch.
You can sometimes use a part-time domicile but you can`t just put down an address that you have no link to. It`s a lot of heat on Meadow, meanwhile, it`s not his biggest legal problem. He was held in contempt for stonewalling the January 6th Committee. The DOJ is considering whether to criminally indict him for that. So there is a lot of signs of accountability for Mark Meadows tonight on more than one topic.
Now when we come back, I have one more political story for you. And it`s the intersection of law and politics. We`ll explain, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:58:49]
MELBER: One of the rising stars in Democratic politics in one of the biggest bluest states in America is crashing down tonight. It`s a scandal bringing down basically the number two Democrat in New York state.
Former Lieutenant Governor Brian Benjamin now resigning just hours after federal prosecutors charged him with bribery, fraud and falsification of records for his conduct while serving as a state senator. The accusations are that he funneled illegal donations to past political campaigns, covered up the activity and tried to orchestrate schemes to basically have people move the money around and change for favors.
He was a rising star because he was just pulled up as the number two after all the changes with Cuomo who was replaced by Governor Kathy Hochul. She accepted his resignation effective immediately. And as a reminder, that the Democratic Party in New York state has had its share of problems.
Now before I go, I want to tell you about one more thing we`re very excited about and it is involving Clive Davis who just marked his 90th birthday. You may remember I interviewed him on THE BEAT. He is going to join me at the 92Y in New York next Thursday. If you are in or near New York I invite you to come on in and go online to get tickets. You see on your screen, 92y.org/events/clive-davis. You can see that link.
There are a few tickets left. Not many. So I wanted to tell everyone who`s nearby you can join us.
[19:00:04]
There`ll also be a way to watch it streaming online and if you don`t remember the link on THE BEAT Twitter account, which is just @thebeatwithari, we will leave that link pinned up there for a few days if you want to join me and Clive. And a happy birthday to him as well.
"THE REIDOUT" with Joy Reid starts now.