Summary
The brutal attack on Ukraine intensifies after Ukraine accuses Russia of bombing a maternity and children`s hospital in Mariupol. It comes as the U.S. warns Russia could use chemical weapons in a false-flag operation. Russia could be planning a chemical or biological weapon attack in Ukraine. The close Putin ally modernized Russia`s forces, but those troops have run into ferocious Ukrainian resistance.
Transcript
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [08:00:13] NICOLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: Thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. We are so grateful. THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER starts right now. Hi, Ari. ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Hi, Nicole, thank you very much. Welcome to THE BEAT. We begin right now tracking a dire moment out of the entire set of Russian attacks on Ukraine thus far. The bombing of this maternity ward in Mariupol. The images are disturbing. They`re also significant for the world to see exactly what we`re learning and what these war correspondents and videographers are finding about the Russian invasion, we can show you inside the hospital. This is what it looks like after Russia`s bombing, the windows shattered, the rooms destroyed, virtually nothing salvageable. Outside you can see sheer devastation. The entire campus area best we can tell according to local reports and ongoing fires there is uninhabitable, the charred trees, the rubble the fires. Ukrainian military, and emergency workers sprung right into action. They tried to help the injured and evacuate survivors. You can see what a troubled scene it is here. At least 17 people injured the death toll is not something that`s been confirmable to report at this juncture. You can see a massive crater from the impact of the bomb. The reference point here that`s an adult man as he goes into the bottom there of that ditch to crater there. And it appears to be a completely indiscriminate attack on civilians. And because as mentioned, it`s a maternity ward that includes people in danger and hurt like this pregnant woman who had to be carried out on a stretcher you see here after the attack and moved to another hospital, which unfortunately like this maternity ward may also be in danger of Russian attacks. There was also a pregnant woman who suffered an injury to the head and she still was there persevering and trying to make it safely down the stairs. In another gruesome image you can see the bloodied mattresses of those hurt, who had fled. The WHO says Russia has attacked 18 different health facilities in Ukraine. We have discussed with experts and our reporting how this type of attack if it is all avoidable, or let alone targeted, it becomes a potential war crime. Here`s one local police officer speaking out. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (FOREIGN LANGUAGE) (END VIDEO CLIP) MELBER: As the war grinds on Mariupol is a place that is subjected to this type of Russian siege. It`s a humanitarian crisis. That reports we have state that the city has no water anymore and no electricity for most residents. People are melting snow and burning wood for heat and communications have been cut down by the Russians. Over 1,200 people reported dead in the city, according to Ukrainian officials since the Russian invasion began. Ukrainian President Zelenskyy speaking out again and saying Russia has lost its humanity. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT, UKRAINE: They want us to feel like animals, because they blocked our cities, the biggest cities in Ukraine and they blocked and because they don`t want our people to get some food, water. (END VIDEO CLIP) MELBER: I`m joined now by NBC`s Cal Perry in Lviv, that`s in the western area near Poland. Cal, when you look at this attack, which has shocked so many today, how does it compare to other things you are learning and have seen as this Russian invasion grinds on? CAL PERRY, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: So we`d been hearing the reporting that these cities were being shelled that they were being shelled into rubble, and then the rubble was being shelled. This video is giving us obviously the visual evidence of the reporting we`d heard on the ground. The mayor there, deputy mayor as well saying that Mariupol had dug its first mass grave yesterday, some 50 people needing to be buried, because as you said, about 1,200 civilians and they think that`s a low estimate have already died in that city. And it`s becoming a matter of actually needing to bury people because residents are trapped in these basements. There was a little bit of good news today in the northern part of the country in the city of Sumy, 20,000 people got out. That seems to be the only successful quote unquote, humanitarian corridor. All the other ones and there was a dozen or so that were supposed to be in effect for the last 48 hours. All of the other ones seem to have failed and not just failed. But again, we seem to be -- seeing Russian forces targeting civilians as they try to leave these areas. [08:04:58] The other thing that`s developed in the last sort of six to eight hours is discussion about these nuclear sites Chernobyl and the Zaporizhzhia power plant Our viewers will remember the Zaporizhzhia power plant because there was heavy fighting there at the end of last week. Well, we understand now that both of those sites have been taken off the grid. In addition to that, you have the White House talking once again, about a false flag possible attack that Russia could carry out by using quote unquote, chemical weapons that coming out of the White House. All of this Ai is a long way of saying the humanitarian crisis is going to get worse. While these reports may be true, they may not be true, you have this disinformation out there, you have all of this stuff being talked about, and you have more than 2 million people now already have left the country, millions of folks are on the move internally. And again, with the sort of videos we`re seeing from Mariupol, with the civilians being trapped, people trying to make that desperate decision. Even folks here in the West, when we start talking about this conflict widening when you start talking about nuclear sites, many, many more people are going to be on the move and the conditions are only going to get worse for those people are. MELBER: Cal Perry reporting. Stay safe and thank you. For context, we turn to Four Star Army General Barry McCaffrey. What do you see in these gruesome images in this siege style tactics? And what if anything, does it reveal about the state of Russia`s invasion? GEN. BARRY MCCAFFREY, RET. FOUR STAR GENERAL: Like Ari, they used this in Syria, they use this kind of terror attack just in groves. This is part of their doctrine. I think it`s enhanced now by Putin desperation for a stalled military invasion. Additionally, they`re probably running out of precision, so-called precision munitions that are they`re using to target Ukrainian command and control that sort of thing. So they`re now using -- that look to me, like as a bomb crater expert, it looked like a aerial bomb with a delayed action fuse. Normally, those are used to bring down large structures, and they`re dumping them in the middle of an occupied city. So whether they targeted that maternity hospital or not, it was bound to be a weapon that aimed at terrorizing the population and destabilizing the country. MELBER: What is the difference in your training in your view between a military that is trying to win its military objectives, which also involves horror and hell and pain and suffering that those of us who haven`t been there, I`ve only observed at a distance. What`s the difference between that and crossing the line into deliberately targeting a civilian population and being subject to the international order in potential war crimes? MCCAFFREY: Well, of course, a war crimes prosecution, which is a good tool to bring out and remind the Russian generals and Putin himself for that matter that potentially a decade from now, they`ll be arrested if they try and leave the country. That`s not a bad tool. But in the short run, it`s not kind of may impact on Russian military actions. I think Putin again, he`s been in and out of his military command headquarters railing at his senior officers to get going, they simply have to capture teeth in some of these major urban areas. They`re stalled time is going to destroy their credibility, the military force. Ukrainians are doing extremely well with smart munitions provided by the West. So I think we`re going to see a continuation of starvation, lack of water, lack of power, lack of the electrical grid, and mass munitions attack on civilian populations or defenses against this sort of thing. MELBER: General McCaffrey, I have a member of Ukrainian parliament standing by. So you`ve kicked off our coverage here. I`m going to come back to you in a moment so viewers know what we`re doing. But right now we then turn to Alona Shkrum, a member of the Ukrainian parliament who joins us. What can you tell us about what you`re seeing the nature of what seems to be an unfolding humanitarian crisis? And can you tell whether to you it looks like deliberate targeting by the Russian military. ALONA SHKRUM, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Hello. Well, first of all, I would like to say that I`m in Kyiv right now so Kyiv it was relatively calm this night although we do hear alerts and we need to go down to the basement or to Metro train stations, et cetera, et cetera. But the north of Kyiv just wrote 30 kilometers from where I am now about 30 minutes drive we also see the humanitarian catastrophe that we`ve seen in Mariupol. And you know, I saw that I`ve seen a lot during the past few weeks. But those things from Mariupol targeting of the maternity wings (ph) hospital is something completely barbaric, inhumane. And I will say that everybody is so shocked about it. And yes, it is deliberate. Hospitals have been targeted deliberately throughout the country. First of all they targeted kindergartens even shelters in kindergartens where children were hiding, now they`re targeting the hospitals not just maternity wings, they are also cutting out from the cities that they, you know, circulated. They`ve cut out water, electricity supply, internet connections, they try to turn on the Russian radios, and they are committing all kinds of work primes that I don`t think Europe has ever seen, you know, for the past 70 years. We have seen it with Hitler. And now Putin is the new Hitler for everybody and for those territories in particular. [08:10:32] And I think that, you know, what we see in Kyiv, so his strategy of taking care of in the fast way, in one or two days has completely broken down. And now he`s doing this strategy of Chechnya, war of scorched (INAUDIBLE), leaving nothing behind and just, you know, everybody who doesn`t like him, have to be terminated, have to be killed. And of course, it`s a humanitarian, catastrophic. And of course, you know, what, what can we do about it, Ukrainians will keep on fighting, and we will protect our cities and our land and our people. But we do need U.S. to help us to close the sky, or at least to provide us the jets. And this is something that is very painful to hear also, when the Pentagon, for example, says it`s the transfer of the jets, even to Poland, for us to get from Poland to help is denied. This is something that the people of Ukraine during those times in Mariupol do not understand. MELBER: Yes. You just said, you`re calling for the foreign policy of having more Western support in the U.S. to close the sky. As you know, that is not a step that the United States has gone near yet. President Zelenskyy as, you know, I`m just reading to make sure I have it exactly right said that, there has not been any dialogue with Putin clearly, and quote, the world did nothing. I`m sorry, but it`s true. We`ve asked you a million times to close the sky. So do you echo Zelenskyy in that? And is your message essentially, that it`s not enough that what NATO and the U.S. are doing at this juncture is not enough to save this country? SHKRUM: I will say that the world has done a lot. And the sanctions are unprecedented. And believe me, we know the support and we feel the support and the amount of letters we get from actually American citizens is completely impressive. And, you know, from all of my friends, and people have never heard a new I knows the support and the humanitarian aid, they said, and the money`s they send. But yes, this is not enough. This is not enough, not just to save Ukraine. But this is not enough to save any kind of international law order in the world because Putin is not going to stop. He`s committed so many war crimes already. He lives in this kind of, you know, bubble of illusion of a crazy cartoon, cartoon he`s created that he needs an empire, he needs an empire of some kind of Slavic countries who don`t even want to know him, and he will not stop. So we`ve seen it already. We`ve seen it 70 years ago, during the Second World War. We`ve seen this strategy -- is a tragedy. It did already and it has to be stopped right now. So here, yes, as a member of parliament, and I think that U.S. and NATO countries can do much better in actually at least creating because they`re close the sky on humanitarian corridors for the civilians to get away. This is something that, you know, we can discuss or closing the sky from a country neutral to NATO, who is not member of the NATO, again, just for people to get away from the humanitarian catastrophe areas. And this will be also a step for us that Ukrainians believe me will feel very strongly. MELBER: Understood. Alona Shkrum joining us from Kyiv. Thank you. We wish you safety. We bring back into -- SHKRUM: Thank you. MELBER: -- our coverage -- thank you. General McCaffrey and former Senator Claire McCaskill who served on the Foreign Relations Committee. Senator, your response to what we just heard. CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D-MO) FMR SENATOR: Well, first of all, today, there was an agreement for $14 billion worth of aid to Ukraine, including military assistance, humanitarian assistance, refugee assistance, and that will happen before the end of the week. Clearly, our military is advising and helping getting munitions in there, along with all the NATO military leaders, and very Barry know this very, very well, that there are lot of people in America`s military and our allies, militaries, that are strategizing ways to protect Ukraine without escalation, its isolation without escalation, and its aid without escalation, it`s air defense weapons, it`s anti-armor, weapons. There are ways that we can help without escalating and that`s the danger here. And I think everyone needs to understand that closing the skies and I know the General can speak to this with a much more authority than I can. Closing the skies means combat air combat with Russian soldiers. That is escalated. That puts many, many more millions of people into danger. [08:15:05] And so, this is tough stuff but at least we have a commander in chief that reveres our allies and respects the wisdom of our wonderful military leaders. MELBER: General McCaffrey, I`m curious as well, your response there, you`ve dealt, of course with the all these aspects of foreign policy. And it`s heartbreaking when you hear people who are out here in danger, I don`t need to underscore it. I think everyone understands, when we have these reports from these cities in Ukraine, the type of danger that people were speaking with are in. And if there`s anything more you want to say about the siege tactics, what is the outlook if Russia continues these tactics, you referred to the president and other countries? Does that mean that in a matter of weeks, they are able to strangle off these cities by basically going house to house this way? MCCAFFREY: Well, Senator McCaskill pretty well stated, what needs to be behind the thinking of the Biden administration, Secretary Blinken, Secretary Austin, they`re enormously concerned about not widening the war, about not having U.S. military in direct combat the Russian elements. And by the way, we could intervene unilaterally give the U.S. Air Force, you know, 30 days, and they will hammer, the Russian. They as 400 elements inside Russia will be struck ground air defense units, will get down low level and try and stop the helicopter flights, which are extremely tough to do. But that`s not really what`s at stake here. You know, what the Ukrainians want is to smash the armor columns that are now encircling the cities and in the south amphibious forces. We could do it politically, NATO will not be with us. And I think President Biden rightfully says we`re going to take these other measures that Senator McCaskill talked about, we`re going to reinforce NATO to make it a strategic deterrent threat to Russia, we`re going to try and provide them with smart munitions across the Polish and Romanian border, but not getting involved in direct combat. This is really horrific, it`s going to get worse. I can`t see a good outcome to this because Putin cannot back out. His standing inside Russia as a dictator is at stake on all this. MELBER: Yes. There`s so much going on. We`ve been spending the first chunk of the broadcast here, hearing from a member of parliament who talked about among other things, the efficacy of the sanctions, will also covering this horrific attack that viewers have been seeing at the maternity ward. Senator, you mentioned the President, he has to be president do more than one thing. The White House released a new executive order today that have been in the works on cryptocurrency, which is a whole big global issue. Biden signing executive order to come up with a plan to regulate crypto, and study the creation of a digital dollar. That alone is a reminder, we`re living in a kind of a new future era here. But on the Russia point, the Biden officials say that facing concerns Moscow would use cryptocurrency to evade these punishing sanctions, it will not be a viable way for Russia to circumvent sanctions, a Biden official telling the New York Times in covering that. I`m curious, Senator, your response to what this President is up to in more than one area. And their view that they do have, they say holding now a long term impenetrable sanctions regime on more than one lever and the oligarchs and now the oil? MCCASKILL: Well, crypto is scary because most Americans don`t understand it. And there`s very little regulation. So, I was glad to see the executive order. Because when most people don`t understand something, and money is involved, or in this case, cryptocurrency is involved, and no regulation. Bad guys do bad things. And Russia is full of people who have the capability of doing bad things. So this is a good step forward for the Biden administration. If you wouldn`t mind me a question to my friend General McCaffrey? MELBER: Please. MCCASKILL: Ari, I have a question. What would be the efficacy at this point General of us doing war exercises in the Baltic? Would that pull some of the Russian forces away from the center of the universe right now in the Ukraine? And is that a wise thing for NATO to begin robust war exercises in the Baltic? MCCAFFREY: Well, it`s not just the Baltics I think you go right to a strategic threat to Putin does. He`s got 60% of the ground combat forces now in Ukraine, 44 million people mired down in effectually, taking thousands of killed and wounded. We`ve got thousands of Norwegian and U.S. Marines up north on a, you know, in an area of the Russian frontier. We`ve put tens of thousands of forces into Romania and Poland. We put one Parachute Infantry Battalion into the Baltics. Putin knows we crossed the frontier. Our one we`re fighting U.S. soldiers. [08:20:24] So, he should feel strategically vulnerable. He is. Russia is a third tier power, economically, and militarily except nuclear weapons, and oil and natural gas, though He`s way out over his skis. His generals must be saying this is looking worse and worse for us. Every day we can continue this. MELBER: Yes, it`s really striking, as you say, and other experts have echoed you General, how this proactive war has completely recast where Russia sits in the global order, both geopolitically and economically and the long term implications of that we`re still grappling with, he doesn`t help humanitarian crisis, as the Senator said, those sanctions will take time. But it is really striking. I want to thank both General McCaffrey and Senator McCaskill for kicking us off here, our first guests in our coverage. And I thank you both. Coming up - MCCASKILL: Thank you. MELBER: -- we look at how the Ukrainian military is fighting back we have the former general overseeing NATO forces. And something special a first on "The Beat," a former top diplomat from Russia, on what Putin is getting wrong, and why he disagrees. That`s a special perspective from an insider. And later, we have more from the interview that President Zelenskyy did and a live report on this unfolding refugee crisis. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [08:25:30] MELBER: Vladimir Putin is continuing this Russian invasion of Ukraine. And there`s all sorts of devastation, we`ve covered it. But there is also the bare fact that Ukraine is holding off a much larger military for much longer than many expected. And that means the Russian military itself has taken quite a hit. It`s putting pressure on military leaders there who had promised a quick victory but are faced with questions about poor logistics, flawed strategy, ill prepared troops. And now what is becoming an immensely costly fight for Russia. And the idea that the occupation itself this is an old, old saw across foreign policy may actually be quote, hard to sustain as The Wall Street Journal reports. It`s a setback for the Kremlin, and the Soviet era. There were many, many public displays of military made including right there, infamously on Red Square. The current Russian military has been grasping perhaps for the glory of that bygone era that might be Putin`s vision, but the new images are showing old Soviet flags flown on Russian vehicles. That`s the image, that`s the kind of attempted some sort of jingoistic cultural nostalgia for Putin`s Russia. But what`s the reality? You have a military that is really struggling over time, as mentioned to face what is a smaller and at times very ad hoc civilian military hybrid Ukrainian resistance. There are reports that Ukraine has now taken the lives of over 3,000 Russian troops. For comparison, that`s more than all the Americans killed in Afghanistan over two decades. And that the Ukrainians are also shooting down planes downing helicopters, attacking Russian convoys and Putin had promised that professional soldiers were the only ones involves pledging no conscripts. Today the Russian Defense Ministry is basically breaking with that and acknowledging conscripts are involved admitting some have even been captured in Ukraine, which means that may have been a harder thing to pretend otherwise. Morale also an apparent problem. We`re seeing reports of some Russian troops abandoning vehicles without a fight, lacking fuel and even food. There were also reports that some may have sabotage their own vehicles to compromise their own ability to join into this conflict. There are pictures and video that show abandoned Russian military vehicles. Analysts say Russian forces also look ill prepared to deal with real time decisions and standoffs. Some civilians here trying to overwhelm a smaller number of armed forces to intimidate to push back. You can even see the crowd there. This was in a Ukrainian village. Another video that went viral shows a woman giving Russian soldiers sunflower seeds, telling them to put them in their pockets so that flowers will grow when they die on the Ukrainian soil. This is more than just a pocket of stories here. There are viral videos. This is about Russia`s standing. Putin doesn`t just want to take Ukraine he also wants to take it in a powerful way to restore as he`s put it, a mightier sort of Soviet era Russian footprint. So if other countries are seeing an actual weakness again, Ukraine is not, I say this respectfully, but it`s not known to be the mightiest military in that region. Well, leaders in Eastern Europe are also noticing. They see gaps in Russia`s military strategy that could be exploited in future battles as the Times reports. We have our show to Sprague right now and when we return, the former NATO Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, in 60 seconds. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:30:17] MELBER: We`re joined now by retired four star general Philip Breedlove, former Supreme Allied Commander of Europe for NATO and a Distinguished Chair at the Frontier Europe Initiative. Welcome back. We just walked through the problems facing the Russian military, which is experts and veterans have emphasized in no way diminishes the fact that it`s a giant military attached to a nuclear power that may ultimately have the run of Ukraine. But is it going worse? And specifically, what does that do to Russia`s standing, and its deterrence in the region? GEN. PHILIP BREEDLOVE (RET.), FMR. SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER EUROPE: Well, thanks for having me on again, tonight. I think there`s a couple of things to think about here that our army is not performing the way that it was expected. But there`s a host of reasons for that. And some of that may not be the problem of the troops in the field. And I suspect a big part of that is. It`s often said that, you know, people having fun talk about fighting and tactics, but serious people talk about logistics. And it sure looks like to me that at the very highest level, this army was sent in the field with inappropriate expectations. And they made some assumptions about how fast they would make this work. And now you have an army in the field that may be better than it`s showing. But it was not properly provisioned or planned for when it went there. And so it`s hamstring. And then the flip side, I think gets right to what you were talking about. And that is similar to the fall of the wall. We used to talk about the Russians being 10 foot tall. And back in the late 80s, early 90s. When the Wall came down, we all decided they were really maybe 5 11 or six foot O, because of what we saw. And maybe that`s a little bit of what we`re seeing now. I think it`s dangerous to start making big changes in our thinking as of yet, but we`re certainly seeing some cracks in the armor. MELBER: And so not changing our thinking too much would mean what? BREEDLVOE: Well, you your lead in sort of asked the question, you know, a lot of people learning and what are they seeing. And is there`s going to be less deterrence based on the production and the performance of this fielded force. And I think there`ll be appropriate time much later to look at that. But in the short term, if we start making assumptions based on that, we could find ourselves in real trouble. And right now there are men and women`s lives on the line. And so we need to remain careful about not passing big judgments based on this performance. MELBER: The intelligence leaders testified and talked about Putin not changing gears no matter what, basically, take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) WILLIAM BURNS, CIA DIRECTOR: I think Putin is angry and frustrated right now. He`s likely to double down and try to grind down the Ukrainian military with no regard for civilian casualties. AVRIL HAINES, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Our analysts assess that Putin is unlikely to be deterred by such setbacks and instead may escalate essentially doubling down to achieve Ukrainian disarmament neutrality to prevent it from further integrating with the U.S. and NATO. (END VIDEO CLIP) MELBER: Do you share that assessment? And is that fundamentally psychological that this is an individual? Who does not course correct? BREEDLOVE: So let me answer the first part, and then we`ll see if I can answer the second part. I do agree. In fact, I have spoken today a couple of times about increased risk. We see an agitated individual. It`s pretty clear. And people have said that Mr. Putin is agitated about the performance so far. And you saw him redresses Intel officer publicly, a couple of days ago, and this is worrisome. What will he do next if this army doesn`t get the momentum back and continue on to the result that he desires? And I think that raises risks. And I think that`s what the director and actually what they both said a few minutes ago, and I think we need to respect that. MELBER: Understood, General Breedlove, thank you. As always, we appreciate your insights. Later tonight, we have a live report from the Ukrainian border. But first, a former top Russian official, who was inside the Kremlin, but is a fierce critic of Putin now based in the U.S., my special guest, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:39:22] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MARIE YOVANOVITCH, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Everything we`ve seen is that Putin is not yet on a path to an off ramp and that he will double down. And the Ukrainian people are the ones that are going to pay the price. But so are the Russian people. And I think that`s important to remember. (END VIDEO CLIP) MELBER: Today we may remember a Marie Yovanovitch, the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine or to the Trump administration discussing why Putin would double down. U.S. intelligence sees Putin as frustrated that Russia`s failed to even seize Ukraine`s capitals, we`ve been reporting tonight. That`s an estimation you can only take so far, but it certainly speaks to the mindset. There`s also that Russian military con way that`s been stalled. [18:40:00] The Times reporting on Putin`s isolation, he did provide a tape statement where he addresses the Russian military deaths in Ukraine. They`re also of course, the photos many have seen where you have the small group of people in Putin`s inner circle at a very large table. Putin has reversed decades of progress that was considered at least from Western standpoint of a more open Russia to questioning Russian society limiting outside information. That crackdown has only intensified in the last two weeks. Right before the invasion, Putin also was berating Cabinet members in public. Now Putin may feel that he`s been lied to by his own advisers. One Russian insider identified to the New York Times a weakness in the Russian military that resonates at a time like this, noting that while the Kremlin spent the last 20 years trying to modernize its military, much of the budget was stolen or misspent. But, quote, as a military adviser, you cannot report that to the President. So they reported lies to him instead. It`s a devastating statement from someone who knows exactly how these things work. And tonight, that Russian insider is our special guest, Andrei Kozyrev was Russian foreign minister from 1991 to 1996, under President Yeltsin, the first person to serve in that role in that post-Soviet era. He`s also been credited with developing Russia`s foreign policy. In that period, as we were just discussing tonight, after the fall of the Soviet Union and the wall, we should also note the current foreign minister, a name you`ve probably heard Sergey Lavrov served as his deputy. Kozyrev have left the Russian government in 2000. That was the year Putin became president for the first time. And he has emerged as something of a critic of Putin in some of these measures. Mr. Minister, thanks for being here. ANDREI KOZYREV, FMR. RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Thank you. MELBER: That statement you made first reported by the New York Times seems to combine the evidence that Russia`s military is hitting problems with your insight or observation that those are exactly the kind of problems that may have been under reported internally to Putin. Can you expound on that a bit more and explain to us how you came to that view? KOZYREV: Well, it`s any dictator or any authoritarian, they suffer from the same problem that they surround themselves with boot licker, so to say our, Yes, men. And those Yes, men, they are afraid just to report. And I met with those circumstances when I was foreign minister, for instance, in Iraq, Saddam Hussein or in many other places, and in the Soviet Union, it was like that. I served in the Soviet Foreign Ministry, I`m career diplomat. And that was exactly like that. Nobody reported the truth. So, he probably believed that there is no Ukrainian nation that he has overwhelming power, you know, overwhelming army, which cannot be because a look at the situation in Russia and the Russian economy. The Russian economy is has been stagnated for the last 10 years, if not declining, and corruption is overwhelming inside Russia. So how could the military be totally separate from that there could not be a military, like United States, you know, in a corrupt state, so it`s just nothing. You know, not rocket science to know that. MELBER: Yes, you put it like that, that it`s, you say not rocket science, a common phrase that if everything else is in decline, why would the military be an exception? And if the crony capitalism and oligarchs and cronyism is how part of the economy and the society runs why would the military be except exempt from that. I want to play a little bit of Putin. This was in an older interview. This is before the invasion, but goes to the mindset that you may understand. This was with our own NBC colleague, Keir Simmons, where he tries to make the argument that really he has to respond to NATO, that Russia is constantly on a defense, as he puts it, take a look. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): What`s the point of expanding NATO to the East and bringing this infrastructure to our borders, and all of this before saying that we are the ones who have been acting aggressively. Why? On what basis? Did Russia after the USSR collapsed present any threat to the United States or European countries? We voluntarily withdrew our troops from Eastern Europe and what did we get in response? We got an response infrastructure next to our borders, and now you`re saying that we`re threatening to somebody. (END VIDEO CLIP) MELBER: You`re an expert at getting to the root of things, not taking it all at face value. Can you share with us your view from your time there? Does he in any way believe some of this stuff because he`s closed off as you described? Or when you get to these international issues? Is it still his version of propaganda, baiting what in America, they sometimes call trolling, and constantly making it out as if he must respond because of what the West is doing? KOZYREV: It`s both. It`s not or, but it`s one and the other. It`s his conviction. But it`s conviction of convenience, because he needs a foreign enemy to justify it, in some way, this disastrous economy in Russia which is one of the richest countries. If you look at the mineral resources, oil, gas, and gold, everything, and the population, population is educated and able to do complex jobs. So this disastrous results in Russian under development. And that`s something which needs an excuse. And that excuse they find in NATO, NATO never threatened a new Russia. NATO countries are eligible for Russian oligarchs, and for Russian successful people and people who have some means to go, that`s where they go. They don`t go to Iran. They don`t go to China even to American or to NATO country. So it`s all a wrong conviction of convenience. And that`s, of course, propaganda. And that makes a vicious circle, you know, propaganda comes to him back in reports of his acolytes, and then they reproduce it behind his propaganda. And he is in a echo chamber. But what I want to say also that I don`t know why everybody is so fixated on a Putin. I mean, it`s like a spoiled child or today he`s in good mood, tomorrow he`s in bad mode, and what is his next Caprice is. Forget it. It`s just politics. It`s just intergovernmental politics. MELBER: Yes. KOZYREV: If NATO shows more strength, it`s OK that there is a response, but don`t hesitate to make more responses. He does not hesitate to punch Ukraine or to attack NATO, verbally or whatever. MELBER: Right. KOZYREV: So, the same news on the other side, it`s just ridiculous that everybody is looking Oh, what, if he will be offended? Or what if he -- MELBER: Right. Well, you`re speaking -- yes. You`re speaking to the impact he has. And you mentioned the propaganda, I`ve got a little bit of time left. But, you know, you say the propaganda can be a vicious loop for them, you know, was it not Buchanan (ph)? Was it not Buchanan (ph) who said don`t get high on your own supply? Or maybe somebody else but that`s what we`ve put it in the United States. My question to you before I lose you at 30 seconds is, is there anyone inside the Russian government who can even give him the bad news? I`m not going to overthrowing him, but give him bad news to course correct or that`s in your view? How to lie, not going to happen. KOZYREV: That is less possible than overthrow him. That`s Russian tradition. They swear to tell the boss the truth, but one day they might come with a weapon and it`s got him either to the grave or to retirement to like happen even in the Soviet Union. It`s rather table, escort him out, then tell him the truth. That`s a tradition. MELBER: Well, thank you for enlightening us on some of the traditions. The former Russian foreign minister and recent Putin critic, Andrei Kozyrev. Thank you, sir. KOZYREV: Thank you. MELBER: Absolutely. We`re also keeping an eye on the humanitarian flows at the border. We`ll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) [18:54:08] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OLGA HUSKOVA, UKRAINIAN REFUGEE IN POLAND (through translator): I was scared of my child for his life, because it makes me or any longer, we would live for shock. They were shooting very close to us. I saw many times, many soldiers, it was very scary. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your children had to see that. HUSKOVA (through translator): Yes, I do. I saw it. And we see these corps. They`re used to it. (END VIDEO CLIP) MELBER: Civilian speaking in Poland to NBC`s Ellison Barber. She is live at the border with Ukraine covering this refugee crisis. Ellison. ELLISON BARBER, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Ari, we have been to six different border crossings in the last 12 days or so. And we have heard countless stories like the one you just heard from that mother there most of the refugees we see fleeing Ukraine. It is women, it is children. Because men who are considered fighting age between the ages of 18 and 60 they cannot leave Ukraine. [18:55:05] I think one of the most important things to remember that we keep hearing with this situation or any situation involving refugees is that no one wants to be a refugee. Every single person we have met they desperately want to go home. They want to be with their families in their community, but they have bravely left behind everything they know, because they want to make sure their children have the chance to grow up. We keep hearing stories from refugees about civilians being targeted. Every time we talk to people more and more we are meeting people crossing into Poland who have come here not because they have family or friends to stay with. They know no one here but this was the only safe option for them and their family and they are just trying to figure out minute by minute where they go from here and desperately hoping this war ensued so that they can go back home. Ari. MELBER: Ellison Barber reporting on this. Thank you and stay safe. We will be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) MELBER: Thanks for spending time with us here on THE BEAT as we cover all of these stories around the world. "THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID" starts right now.