Summary
New evidence emerges on the pressure campaign to overturn the 2020 election. Another big primary night once again puts Trump GOP endorsements to the test. Plus, outrage over out of control COVID relief spending and the amount that may have been awarded to fraudsters.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Stephanie Ruhle starts now.
[23:00:04]
STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, new details on the pressure campaign to overturn the 2020 election as the possible future criminal case against the former guy comes into view.
Then, another big primary night, the Trump endorsement once again put to the test as more than 100 Republican primary winners embrace the Big Lie. Is this the future of the GOP?
Plus, the fleecing of America, outrage over out of control COVID relief spending the stunning amount of money that may have been awarded to fraudsters as THE 11TH HOUR gets underway on this Tuesday night.
Good evening. Once again, I`m Stephanie Ruhle live from Washington DC.
Tonight, the January 6 Committee made up for delaying its originally scheduled hearing tomorrow by releasing damning new testimony from an attorney in Trump`s White House in a tease of sorts for next week`s hearing. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): In our next hearing on Thursday, the select committee will examine President Trump`s relentless effort on January 6, and in the days beforehand to pressure Vice President Pence to refuse to count lawful electoral votes. As a federal judge has indicated, this likely violated two federal criminal statutes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Two, and that teed up the comment the committee`s newest bombshell, a portion of the video deposition from former Trump White House lawyer, Eric Herschmann, who describes a colorful conversation he had the day after the insurrection with John Eastman, the lawyer who wrote memos arguing the vice president could in fact overturn the election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC HERSCHMANN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: He started to ask me about something dealing with Georgia and preserving something potentially for appeal. And I said to him, Are you out of your effing mind? I said, I only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth for now on, orderly transition. That is, when was that I don`t want to hear any other effing words coming out of your mouth no matter what, other than orderly transition. Repeat those words to me. And I told him that he said, eventually he said orderly transition.
He said, good, John. Now I`m going to give you the best free legal advice you`re ever getting in your life. Get a great F in criminal defense lawyer, you`re going to need it. And then I hung up on him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Now that was a tease, as mentioned, the committee today postponed tomorrow`s hearing. It was supposed to detail Trump`s attempt to use the Justice Department to deny Biden`s victory. The Washington Post has new reporting on that very effort concerning an epic confrontation in the Oval Office just three days before the insurrection.
According to the post former DOJ official Jeffrey Clark was their lobbying to get Trump to sign off on a plan to reverse the election results and appoint him the Attorney General. Well, then Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen and his deputy heard about Clark`s mission. They reportedly raced to the Oval Office, Clark`s bosses, then managed to convince Trump not to go along with that plan, which they had already rejected, warning Trump that mass resignations might be the result. But it is no surprise. Some people in the administration were trying to help him overturn a legitimate election.
Trump`s former Attorney General Bill Barr testified about Trump`s detachment, not just from reality, but in many, many cases the truth. So I want to hold on here, Bill Barr making this argument that Trump was detached from the truth. And that`s why he had to make a stand. It doesn`t make very much sense, because the truth is, Trump has been detached from the truth and pushing falsehoods since the beginning.
I want to remind you, Trump repeatedly claimed he won a Man of the Year award in Michigan years ago, guess what that award never existed. Then year after year, he overstated his personal wealth so he could get on to the Forbes 400 list. And we should never forget Sharpie gate where Trump pointed to an incorrect map to try to prove his own incorrect hurricane forecast. Those are just three little examples.
The Washington Post has over 30,000. So while Bill Barr is standing up for the truth under oath now, neither he or the rest of the administration did it thousands of times before. There`s a lot we`ll get to cover tonight.
So let`s get smarter with the help of our lead off panel. Luke Broadwater, Pulitzer Prize winning congressional reporter for the New York Times, Neal Katyal, Department of Justice veteran and former acting Solicitor General during the Obama administration, who has argued dozens of cases before the Supreme Court, and Frank Figliuzzi, former FBI Assistant Director for Counterintelligence.
I got a lot to cover guys. Luke to you first, how significant is that tease clip that the committee released tonight about John Eastman Smith, a lot of F bombs?
[23:05:05]
LUKE BROADWATER, THE NEW YORK TIMES CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: I think it`s extremely significant here you have one of the White House attorneys saying he believes there was a crime committed, or certainly he believes that there`s criminal exposure here for John Eastman. And we all know what John Eastman was doing. He was plotting along with Donald Trump to overturn the election.
And I do think it showed a certain amount of gall on the part of John Eastman to call the next day after the January 6 violence, or so many people were injured and blood was shadow on the Capitol grounds, and to still be trying to push a legal strategy to overturn the election the next day. I think that`s quite galling.
And I do think it sets up this meeting or this hearing on Thursday, where I`m told we`re going to see very explosive new evidence. We`ve reported some of that in the New York Times, some of the other fine journalists have reported what we should expect as well. But some of the revenue revelations coming out of Mark Shorts` testimony out of Greg Jacob`s testimony, some of the things John Eastman was doing and saying, I think those will all be on display. And some of the things Trump himself was saying. Those will all be on display Thursday afternoon.
RUHLE: Luke, earlier tonight, Chris Hayes as committee members, Zoe Lofgren, about delaying tomorrow`s hearing. And whether there`s something more going on, like witnesses backing out, or fact gathering, and I want to share what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Well, you know, we`re constantly learning new things. But this is primarily logistical.
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Primarily.
LOFGREN: I`ll just leave it at that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Primarily, what do you think about that, Luke, you`re the reporter on hand?
BROADWATER: Well, so what I`ve been told repeatedly by the committee is that this is merely an issue on the staff side about getting the hearing ramped up, the presentations ready, going through this voluminous transcripts and video evidence they have. Some of the DOJ lawyers sat for several sessions that were hours upon hours long and giving the best clips of those.
I`ve heard some other rumors about, you know, maybe there`s going to be a big Supreme Court ruling tomorrow and the committee wanted to stay clear of that. I don`t know how they would know that that`s just a rumor that`s going around Capitol Hill, probably speculation more than anything.
But, you know, from what I`ve heard from actual reporting, it`s that there were issues on the staff side, getting the presentation ready, and they`re going to postpone it probably till next week to have the DOJ officials come in and testify.
RUHLE: Neal, you`ve got an editorial out tonight in the New York Times the future criminal case against Donald Trump. Now, different committee members are saying different things about a criminal referral. And I want to share with Jamie Raskin said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): There`s not a general catch all federal statute that allows for Congress to make criminal referrals to the Department of Justice. We have the power and the authority. And I think the duty to publish all the information we have about crimes that have taken place, we have even already committed ourselves to the proposition that crimes have taken place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: How would you go about making a case against Trump?
NEAL KATYAL, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR: Well, I wrote this piece to basically outline exactly what that would be. And you know, I don`t know that I`m a great effing criminal defense lawyer, but I am a criminal defense lawyer. And the criminal case against Trump is incredibly strong, close observers knew that before the hearings, and the question has always been why has the Justice Department done? Why haven`t they done anything, at least outwardly?
And the idea in this piece is to say Merrick Garland looks like he may have decided on the strategy. And the strategy is rooted in the fact that this, Stephanie, is not a normal investigation, under normal investigation that just sperm it goes first.
But here, we always knew, everyone knew, Garland knew that Congress will be investigating this because after all, that seed of government was attacked, that branch of government was attacked, those police officers were attacked.
And so in a world in which Garland knows Congress is already going to investigate. And with a bipartisan committee, it makes sense to have them generate the evidence, put it before the American public, and then acclimate the public to what close observers know, which is that the facts here look incredibly damning for Trump, both on obstruction of an official proceeding and on conspiracy with respect to both of those, the case looks, you know, really quite strong against Donald Trump.
And, you know, we as Americans can`t have a world in which that kind of high I level wrong --wrongdoing goes unanswered.
[23:10:02]
I mean, you and me Steph, if we go commit a minor crime, we get sent to the slammer. The idea that Merrick Garland wouldn`t prosecute this, I think is unthinkable. And what we now what I think Congress has to do is get that evidence before the people so more and more people see it and get socialized to the fact that this indictment which no attorney general`s ever done, no attorney general`s ever indicted a former president in our history, but we`ve never had a president like Donald Trump in our history.
RUHLE: And that`s kind of the thing, Neal. Isn`t it hard to prove intent, we`ve seen time and again, Trump rolls, mobster style. He doesn`t write texts. He doesn`t write emails, isn`t it very hard to -- he knows how to say, Well, I didn`t actually know. Remember Michael Cohen, remember he said like Trump took a note and actually tore it up and ate it. Michael Cohen went to jail. Trump didn`t. He never signs his name.
KATYAL: Big difference Steph between all the other stuff against Trump in this which is this is a criminal prosecution. This could be a criminal prosecution. Criminal prosecutors know very well. I put my people in jail when they decide that`s what they want to do when they have the fortitude to do it. And I think here the evidence which the hearings unfolding, like, you know, Bill Barr saying that Trump`s claims were BS, and that he told Trump that over and over again.
You know, if you`re an idiot, if you, you know, are willfully blind to the facts on the ground, that is not a defense to a criminal charge. And that`s all Trump`s defense at the bottom looks like, which is why all of this evidence is being generated by the hearings. I know some of it seems tedious to the American people, but it`s all incredibly useful in a criminal prosecution. And we`ve never seen that against Trump, because frankly, these prosecutors in the past including well respected people like Mueller pledged.
RUHLE: Speaking of the American people, we often hear people don`t care about these hearings. But they do. Frank, 20 million people. They watched the first Primetime hearing at about 10 million people reportedly watched the second one that took place in daytime. Those are huge audiences. Do you think this investigation is breaking through?
FRANK FIGLIUZZI, FMR. FBI ASST. DIRECTOR FOR COUNTERINTELLIGENCE: I think it is, look what we`re talking about. Look with the other networks, maybe save one network, Stephanie, are talking about what people are talking about around the country is what? Whether or not there might be a criminal charge, or two or three against the former president of the United States. Lots being written about this in the last 48 hours, 72 hours. That`s penetration.
And you know, the other side that this is penetrating, pressing the right buttons having an impact is what a measurement I used to use in my old FBI days to kind of measure whether indictments trials were actually on the right path, doing the right thing was the extent to which a defendant feels it necessary to start ranting and raving on the courthouse steps or in the media.
And what are we seeing from people like Steve Bannon, Roger Stone, the former president who responds with a 12-page rambling diatribe where he actually starts confessing. He says in a tweet, if I wasn`t responsible for the violence on January 6, it was the rigged election that was responsible. Well, he`s done it again. He`s wetted himself to a falsehood.
So, what we used to say back in the FBI study was, keep doing it. Please keep talking. Please keep ranting and raving. It helps to in the public`s perception of you. And it helps prosecutors get their job done.
RUHLE: How about all the people that he convinced it was a rigged election? We learned yesterday, Neal, that Trump raised 250 million bucks for the stop the steal defense fund, a fund that didn`t even exist. So are we going to start to see civil suits, class action suits against this fund for people who want their money back?
KATYAL: I think we could. I mean, Steph, somewhere, Steve Bannon, who is delighted that someone in the administration finally took his advice, because remember Bannon was indicted for exactly this kind of scheme, and pardoned by Trump for this stuff. You can`t take money for one thing and use it for another. That`s both wire fraud in the criminal context. And Steph as you say, it`s a civil lawsuit as well.
And the facts look like from the evidence yesterday by the committee, that`s what happened. I mean, Trump said he would deliver, he then misspent the money and then absconded with the rest of the money. And the only reason -- the only thing I can tell that makes this any different from the Trump Organization is that the Trump kids haven`t yet come around to consult -- to collect their consulting fees, but you know, it is the Trump MO once again, take the money and run.
RUHLE: It`s the Trump MO once again, but they`ve never been in trouble for, Neal. Remember, for months and months, we talked about all that inauguration money they`re going to get in trouble for it was spent, they would get in trouble.
KATYAL: Yes, so I do think, Steph. The difference is that these are criminal prosecutions and investigations by the Justice Department for the last four years we`ve had a smattering of different attorneys general Bill Barr, Whitaker, Jeff Sessions who protected the president at every turn, you know, Barr going so far as to shut down essentially the Mueller investigation and say, You can`t indict a sitting president.
[23:15:18]
Now we`ve had a year into the Garland administration, Garland Justice Department. I do think you know, he is methodical careful. The fact that he hasn`t indicted yet doesn`t tell me that he wouldn`t indict in the future. And again, things like these hearings are a way to try and acclimate the public first, to just how bad the evidence is against Trump and those around him, and then have the criminal prosecution come later. That`s at least, you know, that`s obviously the most optimistic scenario for those of us who care about the rule of law.
But it`s one that I think we should be putting on the table, because the hearings are providing such compelling evidence, Stephanie, of wrongdoing by the President, and it is really unthinkable in this country, that we would let that go unanswered.
RUHLE: Frank, January 6 is not just a thing of the past. I know you`re focused on clear and present danger. You`re focused on extremist groups and their risks. Now, over this past weekend, 31 members of Patriot front, they were arrested in Boise for allegedly targeting a Pride event. I know we`re trying to get to the bottom of January 6, but it still seems like a lot of them offshoots of that group are still plotting. How concerned are you?
FIGLIUZZI: Yes, I`m concerned DHS more importantly is concerned enough to have issued a statement a week ago that we`re in a heightened threat environment for the next few months. That`s their quote. And we`re halfway through Pride Month, Stephanie, and we seen something fortunately taken down in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho.
But I`m concerned that it took thankfully a citizen spotting these guys loading up into a U-Haul to call 911 and that it wasn`t an intelligence operation, undercovers, informants monitoring social media people came from 11 states to do this to Idaho, yet it took a citizen thankfully to call 911.
What does that tell us? The challenges that law enforcement are facing now are unprecedented in terms of the threat environment, and the cultivation of this anti-trans anti-gender non-conforming sentiment is turning violent and it`s the new -- is the new champ. The new mantra that I`m seeing in private chat rooms of violent extremist.
RUHLE: Tells you that that private citizen is a great American hero. Gentlemen, thank you so much for getting us smarter and starting our evening off. Luke Broadwater, Neal Katyal and Frank Figliuzzi.
This is also primary Night in America, there were races in four different states today, Nevada, North Dakota, Maine and South Carolina. And yet again, Donald Trump`s endorsement power is being put to the big test. Lucky for us, Steve Kornacki is back at the Big Board. Steve, where things stand right now.
STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, here was the biggest one for Donald Trump, I think that he wanted the most tonight and we can say he got it. He got his candidate Russell Fry to victory in the seventh district of South Carolina. This the Republican primary here, trouncing Republican incumbent Tom Rice. Rice, one of the few House Republicans who voted to impeach Donald Trump following the events of January 6.
This was the first time in fact during this lengthy primary season that we`ve seen a Republican come before Republican primary voters after voting to impeach Trump and face a Trump backed challenger.
Here`s the verdict from the voters of the seventh district of South Carolina. More than two to one Russell Fry a state legislator crushing Tom Rice, again, this is a 50 percent rule here. The only suspense tonight was would Fry clear 50 percent win this thing outright and avoid a runoff. He has. Russell Fry wins in South Carolina seven.
NBC also now projecting that Nancy Mace also targeted by Donald Trump, Republican incumbent Nancy Mace will survive her primary challenge. Trump had been backing Katie Arrington the challenger in this race. Mace looks like she`s going to fend off Arrington. Mace did not go as far as Tom Rice did in speaking out against Donald Trump. She did not vote for impeachment. She did not vote for the formation of the bipartisan January 6 Commission.
She did though in the initial wake of the January 6 attacks, make critical comments about Trump about his role in that. She spent the rest of her first term here in Congress, though, in many ways trying to make peace with Trump voters politically that may be just enough to help her survive. She is going to win tonight, NBC News now projecting that.
One other notable House result to tell you about it`s in Texas, it`s in a special election in Texas. It`s in a district that`s only going to exist for a few more months, but it`s significant because of this conversation we`ve been having about Hispanic voters potentially shifting toward the Republican Party in the last couple of years.
Look at this the 34th district in Texas. This is as current -- as it`s currently constituted one of the most Hispanic districts in the country.
[23:20:04]
And in this special election tonight, the Republican Mayra Flores, as you can see is leading with most of the votes in. She`s leading her closest democratic competitor. Again, this district is going to be reconfigured. She`ll be running in a different looking district this November.
But this district right now is one that voted for Barack Obama was more than 60 percent of the vote, voted for Hillary Clinton by more than 20 points. This is part of that story we`ve been telling since the 2020 election, especially along the border in South Texas, the Rio Grande Valley, massive, massive shifts towards the Republicans among Hispanic voters.
And it`s a story that`s extended outside of Texas to South Florida to other areas of the country. And it`s a big one to keep an eye on this fall in the midterm elections. The Hispanic vote perhaps up for grabs in ways we haven`t seen in recent elections. This result in Texas tonight underscoring that, Stephanie.
RUHLE: Underscoring, Steve, that all politics are local this district that is actually at the border, turning red. And the Trump test, one win, one loss. Steve Kornacki, thank you.
Coming up, all of those people who are out there voting today, we`re going to get into what has been the most fired up. Spoiler alert, it`s the economy, ahead of a major decision from the Fed tomorrow.
And later, after so much anxiety over COVID comes accountability. A fleecing of America update on the hundreds of millions of dollars in COVID funds gone for good. The 11th Hour just getting underway on a very busy Tuesday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:26:08]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: Jobs are back for prices are still too high. COVID is down. But gas prices are up. Our work isn`t done. But here`s the deal. America still has a choice to make, a choice between a government by the few for the few or government for all of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: President Biden reassured Americans he is prioritizing his inflation. His message, Republicans in Congress are doing everything they can to stop his plans to bring costs of families down. But POLITICO is pointing this out quote, with the midterms rapidly approaching, voters` patience appears to be running out. And Biden and Democrats are poised to pay the political price.
So let`s discuss. With us tonight two experts from states have in primaries tonight, former Senator Heidi Heitkamp as North Dakota`s first elected female senator. She served on the Senate Banking Committee, and she`s also the founder of the One Country Project, a group that helps rural communities. And let`s also welcome MSNBC political analyst John Ralston. He`s the CEO of the Nevada Independent covering politics in that state for more than 30 years.
Heidi, we`ve got to start with inflation, it is a huge issue. And the truth is, the president can`t do that much. The only tool we really have is the Federal Reserve. They`re going to announce the rate hike tomorrow. But here`s the thing, a big fast rate hike is going to help us recover sooner. But if you have a really big hike that causes immediate pain, what`s worse for the Biden administration?
FMR. SEN. HEIDI HEITKAMP. (D-ND): Well, Stephanie, you`re not old enough to remember the Volcker time, the recessions coming, the recessions coming. This is exactly the situation that Jimmy Carter was in basically wanting to make the corrections that needed to be made to curtail inflation. But you risk the recession, and you risk basically pouring a lot of cold water on a on an economy.
And so, you know, this is a tough deal for the President. Unfortunately, if there is a mistake, denying that inflation was going to be a problem over six months ago, is probably something that the administration wishes wasn`t on their record. And you know, and I know a lot of what`s driving all of these costs are high energy costs. And those are so difficult when you`re looking at whether it is electrical rates, which are going up dramatically, especially when they -- when the heats at 100, whether it is in fact gas prices or natural gas prices. We`re in a very high energy economy cost economy right now. And that`s going to make it very, very difficult to curtail inflation.
RUHLE: OK. But then Heidi, President Biden is planning to go to Saudi Arabia to address oil and gas next month, and there are a lot of Democrats angry with him, because it`s Saudi Arabia, who has committed all sorts of atrocities. Is it the right practical move for Biden to go there? Yes, we wish we were completely independent, but it`s not like we can turn the spigot on here and produce, produce, produce, and we need these prices to go down tomorrow. Is he making the right move talking to Saudi Arabia next month?
HEITKAMP: I don`t know that he`s making the right move, making it such a public discussion. I remember when President --
RUHLE: Well, he`s not going in secret.
HEITKAMP: Well, I know but I remember when President Trump went hat in hand to try and get the Saudis to basically curtail production because oil prices had collapsed and the oil industry was suffering as a result of it.
And so, you know, we cannot ignore the huge impact that OPEC has on energy prices. But by the same token, the message about to the American domestic producers needs to be more consistent and I think it`s very difficult when you have a very progressive wing that does not want to deal with domestic production wants curtail domestic production investment in infrastructure and domestic production and then turns around and says but we don`t want you dealing with a dictator.
[23:30:11]
We`ve got to have an energy policy that is pro climate. But it doesn`t necessarily have to be anti-natural gas and anti-oil.
RUHLE: John, COVID devastated Nevada`s economy. I mean, your unemployment number was bigger than the national average, the economic recovery has been slower there than the rest of the country. So when you look at voters going out in your state, is the economy their number one issue?
JOHN RALSTON, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: I think it is Stephanie. And it`s very difficult, because as you mentioned, we were so far down, that we have come back a long way. And that is what the Democrats, including the governor who is up this year as a Democrat, Steve Sisolak, had been trying to tell people but you know, you talk about all politics being local, people feel it in their local pocketbook, right. And so they not -- they don`t necessarily buy that argument.
So Biden`s numbers are terrible here. He is being blamed for a lot of this. And so the Republicans here are tying the governor and every other Democrat to the problems in the Nevada economy, which of course, as you alluded to Stephanie, they`re worse than most places because we`re still a one trick pony with everything reliant on that few miles called Las Vegas Boulevard south or the Las Vegas Strip.
RUHLE: But are those Republicans offering a different economic solution? I get it. Things are really painful right now and Biden`s the guy in the White House. But come November, the issues that plague our economy supply chain issues in China, the war in Ukraine, they`re not going away. So what are Republicans offering other than don`t vote for Biden? He`s a stinker.
RALSTON: Oh, you want substance now in a political campaign cycle, Stephanie. Listen, of course, they have no answers. And they`re experts in 2020 hindsight, and they see an opportunity here, the so called red wave is coming. And so they`re going to use whatever shibboleths they can think of to try to pound the Democrats for being responsible for this and they have no ideas of their own, mostly at the top of the ticket to by the way, when you talk about the gubernatorial race, you talk about the U.S. Senate race here, which you know, is pivotal, Stephanie.
Catherine Cortez-Masto is considered one of the more vulnerable senators, and they are tying her to Biden, but of course, they are not presenting any kind of alternatives to fix the economy because, you know, that would entail them actually presenting a substantive debate. I don`t see that happening, although those of us in the media here are trying.
RUHLE: Well, they always say it`s the economy stupid, what would be smart would be to offer an actual economic solution. Heidi talked to us about North Carolina, excuse me, North Dakota, what am I saying. Trump won your state by 35 points, more than 35 points. It`s not a question of will the state go red? Does North Dakota need to go Trump red? These hearings aren`t good for him are people in North Dakota watching?
HEITKAMP: You know, I think people make the mistake and think that people in North Dakota like Donald Trump, a lot of them didn`t like Donald Trump. They didn`t like how we behaved. They didn`t like the lies, but they did pretty well in the Trump years. And so they said, Look, I don`t like him. But I like his policies. And that`s really kind of the hill that Biden has to climb.
You know, they like him personally, or liked him a lot more before, but they don`t like his policies. And they blame him because they looked at their 401(k), when Donald Trump was president, they look pretty good. They looked at the gas prices when Donald Trump was President looks pretty good. And you know, it`s lot of complicated than that.
RUHLE: You can say that when Barack Obama was president, and they didn`t feel good about him.
HEITKAMP: Right. But, you know, Stephanie, I want to point something out that doesn`t get enough national coverage. The races that I`m watching right now in North Dakota are races for the school board. We`ve had a couple of attempts at recall elections, people wanting to ban books, people wanting to bring a whole different dynamic to schools, really curtail teachers, and we`re not seeing those people getting reelected or getting elected to school board positions. We aren`t seeing the city elections going completely rad in pro Trump.
So, I think we need to be a little more nuanced and how we look at a lot of our states like mine and look at where the victories are. And I think tonight, there`s a school board election up in Grand Forks, North Dakota, that`s really a victory for common sense and a victory for what I think are North Dakota values, not Trump values.
RUHLE: Heidi, my mom was my school board president for years and years. I`ve always got time to talk about those elections. Heidi Heitkamp John Ralston, thank you for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it.
[23:35:00]
Coming up a disturbing trend in elections so far this year dozens and dozens of primary candidates running and winning and guess what? The Big Lie. When THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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RUHLE: Trump`s big lie is now playing a key role in the Republican Party. The Washington Post`s reporting 108 Republican primary winners have embraced Trump`s false claims of election fraud.
[23:40:02]
So let`s discuss and bring in Michael Steele, former chairman of the Republican National Committee, and former Lieutenant Governor of the great state of Maryland. And Democratic strategist, my dear friend Lis Smith is back. We have not seen her in a while. She has been busy writing her new book, "Any Given Tuesday: A Political Love Story" is coming out July 19.
Mr. Steele, at this point, everyone inside and outside the Trump administration full well knew he was lying. He knew he lost the election, yet 147 House Republicans still voted against certifying the election. At this point, all those lawmakers have egg on their face. They knew they were lying.
MICHAEL STEELE, FMR. RNC CHAIRMAN: Oh, no, they don`t. That`s what their base wants. It`s what their base wants. It`s where it`s where the money is, is where the votes are. That`s the bottom line. And as the hearings are showing us, there`s a lot of grip that took place and continues to take place. And it`s how these candidates are aligning themselves in primaries.
The test, though, at the end of the day, Stephanie, is going to be how do they win a general election. And what do democratic and independent voters think of them, along with other Republicans who didn`t necessarily participate in the primary. Because you know, those tend to be much more the extremes right and left. How does that resonate in a general election? That`s where the Mitch McConnell`s and the party who are counting the sort of, you know, eggs and hoping that chickens inside recognize some of those chickens may be stillborn. So, there it is.
RUHLE: But Lis, don`t these hearings, change any of it? You`ve got all sorts of people running right now who are election deniers. You`re Democratic strategist, would you not just run Bill Barr going? It`s bullshit. It`s bullshit. It`s bullshit on loop from now until November?
LIZ SMITH: Well, first, these candidates have to get through primaries and being an election denier in a Republican primary is not going to hurt you at all. In fact --
RUHLE: Even after the hearings?
SMITH: Yes, even after the hearings.
STEELE: Yes.
SMITH: Look, Stephanie, let me give you a couple examples. You know, not only is it not a liability, I would say that having been at January 6, having actually been there physically and having stormed the Capitol is one of the biggest status symbols that you can have in a Republican primary today.
You know, the hottest club in the GOP is being a part of that mob that stormed the Capitol on January 6. And we see that in two key examples. One is in the Michigan governor`s race. Last week, Ryan Kelly, who`s one of the front runners to be Michigan gubernatorial -- GOP gubernatorial nominee was arrested, charged with four federal counts for storming the Capitol. And, you now, was he liability? Did it disqualify him? No, he is doubling down on it and running on it. He is raising money off of it. He went to Steve Bannon`s radio show and bragged about it.
In Pennsylvania, you have Doug Mastriano, who is doing the same thing and is bragging about how as governor, he will use his pen to decertify election results. And these guys are running for governor. They`re not running to be members of Congress. They have say over the elections in their states and Michigan, Pennsylvania that can determine good (INAUDIBLE) in this.
RUHLE: Stop. Stop. Are they not going to get crushed by independence from the general election? 20 million people watch the first day of the hearing. And the club doesn`t have a velvet rope. It`s going to be a prison cell.
SMITH: Well, yes. So I mean, I would hope so I you would hope so. But we`ve seen extreme candidates, in bad years, overcome, you know, go along with the wave and be carried by the wave. And I think that should be a fear of every Democrats.
But yes, Democrats are going to run very hard against this. But we do have to reckon with the fact that the number one issue for voters is not necessarily electoral integrity, or what happens in 2024. It`s inflation.
So Democrats have to put forward a compelling argument for why we are the party that`s, you now, best equipped to handle the economic pain that people are feeling, while making sure that we do not let Republicans off the hook for the fact that they want to hijack a tooth 2024 election.
RUHLE: Then Michael, given all that we just laid out, is all of this a big win for Mitch McConnell, because the hearings are bad for Trump and McConnell doesn`t like Trump and inflation is terrible for Biden.
STEELE: Yes, I mean, in that sense, you`re right. But it goes back to the point that both Lis and I are making about what happens in a general election. You ask the question, what about those independent voters? What, you know, where do they -- where do they go?
The question is, do they look at this hearing? Do they look at what Republicans are offering as their solution to inflation into the economy and go where we want that, or do they sit back and go yes, I don`t like where we are in inflation, I don`t like where we are in gas prices.
[23:45:08]
But the bigger question is our democracy, it is whether or not I want to give power back to the party that fomented insurrection.
RUHLE: But Michael, doesn`t --
SMITH: Republicans aren`t offering anything on inflation. So they`re just saying we`re not Democrats.
RUHLE: And on that good point.
STEELE: That`s a good point. But you know what, that`s enough of a point. I could win an election on that.
RUHLE: All right, you too. We have a lot more I want to cover in this. Unfortunately, I`m out of time. But I`ve always got time to talk to both of you. Michael Steele, Lis Smith, great having you here.
SMITH: Thanks for having me.
RUHLE: Coming up, the fleecing of America one most important series we have at NBC. Why lawmakers and I`m going to tell you everyday citizens are outraged over the lack of enforcement and COVID relief funds. They say one single company pocketed hundreds, hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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[23:50:37]
RUHLE: As part of our series, the Fleecing of America, we have been keeping a close eye on what happened to the billions of dollars in emergency aid the U.S. government shelled out during the early days of the pandemic.
Well, it`s no surprise that was so much money available. It was an opportunity for super fraudsters. Well, a few months ago, I spoke with the Inspector General of the Small Business Administration, as well as State`s Attorneys tasked with uncovering pandemic loan rackets. And they told me back then, that at least $87 billion of potential fraud had been identified. And my colleague Gabe Gutierrez has an update. And I`ll give you a teaser. It`s really bad.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
GABE GUTIERREZ, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (on camera): The Department of Justice has been looking into pandemic relief funds and alleged fraud on a massive scale. Now congressional investigators are also looking into some of the companies hired to help distribute that money.
(voice-over): This nondescript office building in Virginia how`s the company the Feds hired to help distribute billions of dollars in loans to help struggling small businesses during the pandemic. The firm RER Solutions got a no bid $750 million contract, the company netted $340 million in windfall profits, despite assigning the work to just six of its employees according to a U.S. House subcommittee report released today.
(on camera): Why do you think the COVID spending at that time was so out of control?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Because we did not have effective enforcement of the oversight procedures that Congress put in place.
GUTIERREZ (voice-over): The economic injury disaster loan program known as EIDL has previously been under scrutiny, as the Justice Department`s inspector general told Lester.
MICHAEL HOROWITZ, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE INSPECTOR GENERAL: The Small Business Administration in sending that money out largely relied on an honor system.
GUTIERREZ: Prosecutors had already accused some borrowers of using the money to buy luxury homes cryptocurrency and tenseless. Now investigators are looking closer at companies that distributed the money amid revelations that as much as 20% of the funds may have been awarded to fraudsters.
KEVIN CHAMBERS, DEPT. OF JUSTICE COVID-19 FRAUD ENFORCEMENT DIRECTOR: Each dollar stolen was $1 taken from a small restaurant owner who wanted nothing more than to keep her staff on the payroll.
GUTIERREZ: RER Solutions told congressional investigators it`s subcontracted part of the work out to two other companies. The firm which has not been charged with any crime or misconduct did not respond to NBC News`s repeated requests for comment.
CLYBURN: The (INAUDIBLE) taking advantage of the law that existed.
GUTIERREZ: This could be just the tip of the iceberg. There are more than 1,100 ongoing investigations into pandemic related small business loans. Back to you.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
RUHLE: Could be the tip. I`d say iceberg dead ahead. Thank you, Gabe Gutierrez. Coming up, a leader like Trump, how Herschel Walker is taking a page out of the former guys playbook when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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[23:57:36]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Herschel has been one of the greatest athletes in America and I know he will go down also as one of the greatest senators in America.
HERSCHEL WALKER, GOP SENATE CANDIDATE: We`ve been together for a long time. And I said it a long time ago a great man, great leader. I want to be a leader like him when I get to that Senate seat to show everyone I love America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: The last thing before we go tonight, Herschel Walker`s lies. Republican Georgia Senate candidate Herschel Walker said there that he wants to be a leader like Trump. Well, with his climbing number of lies, he`s getting a lot closer to that goal.
The latest is that he said on at least three separate occasions that he worked in law enforcement. Well, for facts sake, let`s clear things up.
According to the Atlanta Journal Constitution in 2017 speech, Walker said this, I work with the Cobb County Police Department and I have been in criminal justice all my life. Then two years later while giving a speech to soldiers, he said I spent time at Quantico at the FBI Training School. Y`all didn`t know I was an agent. They didn`t know because he wasn`t.
And according to the Atlanta Journal Constitution, the Cobb County Police Department said they have no record of any involvement with Walker. His campaign said in a statement to Newsweek the following, Herschel studied Criminal Justice at the University of Georgia and is supported and worked with law enforcement for years, including speaking to police about mental health, leading women`s self-defense training, participating in the FBI Academy at Quantico and being awarded honorary deputy status in Cobb along with three other Georgia counties.
All of that explanation to say you`re right. He didn`t work in law enforcement. And as we said, that is just the latest of Walker`s lies that have recently come to light. He also claimed that he owned companies, companies that don`t actually exist. He lied about his college achievements. And in 2020, he falsely claims that he knew a mist, he knew of a mist that prevented COVID. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALKER: Do you right now I have something that can bring you into a building that will clean you from COVID as you walk through this, this drop mints. As you walk through the door, it will cure any color on your body. EPA FDA approved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: A mist that will clean you from COVID, that reminded us of something.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or, or almost a cleaning
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: And that is the leader who Herschel Walker wants to model himself after. And on that very note, I wish you all a very good, a very safe and healthy mist free night. From all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News, thanks for staying up late with us. I`ll see you at the end of tomorrow.