Summary
After addressing explosive new audio tapes, Rep. Kevin McCarthy received a standing ovation from House Republicans. Despite the public united front, sources tell NBC things got "heated" in the GOP huddle. Meantime, Russia releases a U.S. Marine veteran in a surprise prisoner exchange. And House Democrats say the Trump admin. awarded a $700 million pandemic loan to a trucking company over objections from Defense Department officials.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: THE 11TH HOUR with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.
[23:00:09]
STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, cracks in the Grand Old Party those recorded conversations now raising tensions between Trump loyalists and party leadership. So why did Kevin McCarthy get a standing ovation.
Then as the war in Ukraine enters week nine a surprise prisoner swap. And as Putin chokes off fuel to two European nations, the White House gets ready to ask Congress for a massive Ukraine aid package.
Plus, the fleecing of America how a trucking company with huge ties to the Trump administration ended up with a $700 million pandemic loan as THE 11TH HOUR gets underway on this Wednesday night.
Good evening once again, lovely to be with you, I`m Stephanie Ruhle. House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy is in survival mode again tonight trying to remain a viable candidate for Speaker of the House while facing the wrath of some of Trump`s most fiercest supporters in his own party.
The minority leader was face to face with Republican members this morning for the first time since the release of those revealing audio tapes, and the meeting was said to be heated at times. On the recordings McCarthy is heard saying Trump bears responsibility for January 6, and expressing fear that lawmakers in his own caucus could incite violence following the riot.
NBC News reports McCarthy did not shy away from the audio in today`s closed door meeting, but instead told members that the party quote needs to move forward and lead on issues Americans care about including border security and inflation.
Some lawmakers said McCarthy actually got a standing ovation and say he is still on track to become speaker if Republicans take control of the House. But, and there was always a but, that is not where it ended.
Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz now attacking both McCarthy and his deputy Steve Scalise about leaked audio concerning Gaetz`s criticism of Liz Cheney, here`s what the party leaders were saying.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
REP. STEVE SCALISE (R-LA): OK, what did Gaetz say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, yes, Gaetz said -- Gaetz brought up Liz specifically, I just saw that on Twitter.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): And someone just sent it, Gonzalez just sent it to me, so I`m calling Gaetz, I`m explaining to him. I don`t really have that much to say, but I`m going to have some other people call him too. But the nature of what -- if I`m getting a briefing, I`m going to get another one from the FBI tomorrow -- this is serious shit, to cut this out.
SCALISE: Yes, that`s -- I mean it`s potentially illegal what he`s doing.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
RUHLE: Potentially illegal. That right there is the part that Gaetz and his posse are fired up about NBC reports. Freshmen Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, also fired up. She`s calling for both McCarthy and Scalise to apologize.
Scalise, the congressman who was shot on a softball field back in 2017, did meet one on one with Gaetz after this morning`s GOP meeting. Then he tried to explain what he said in those recorded comments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCALISE: There were some things that were being told to a number of us that were in that call about threats that were being made. And there were members that were getting death threats at the time. And clearly I`m very alarmed. And, you know, a little bit extra concerned when you see members of Congress, Republican or Democrat getting death threats.
So I shared that with Matt, I`m sorry that those comments cause him problems because it was things that was conveyed to me from a number of places.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: And tonight, Gaetz is back on the attack telling his side of the story to Fox News.
REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): And at the time, I was protecting President Trump from impeachment, and Kevin McCarthy was protecting Liz Cheney from criticism. What I said to Steve Scalise, is that if you accuse someone of potentially breaking the law, and by the way, he wasn`t reacting to something, he raised the prospect of the illegality of my statement that Liz Cheney was anti-Trump. If you accuse someone of breaking the law, you have to say what law you think they broke and you have to present what evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: The January 6 committee`s chairman says members will consider, consider, possible subpoenas for McCarthy and other lawmakers before the week`s end.
With that let`s dig in and bring in our experts tonight. All MSNBC contributors Jackie Alemany, Congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post. Neal Katyal Department of Justice veteran and former acting Solicitor General during the Obama administration. He has argued dozens of cases before the U.S. Supreme Court, and former U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance, who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor,
Jackie, today Republicans gave Kevin McCarthy a standing ovation. But fast forward 8:00 tonight, Fox News, Matt Gaetz giving him yet another beat down. So where does McCarthy stand tonight?
JACKIE ALEMANY, THE WASHINGTON POST CONGRESIONAL INVESTIGATIONS REPORTER: yes, therein lies the rub Steph, you know, some sort of asymmetric imbalance here which is that most of the members in the House GOP conference including House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and House GOP leadership are really tired of the antics from the far right of their party.
[23:05:16]
But and that was evidence in that audio that leaked. And really over the course of the past year, as McCarthy has struggled to sort of keep the party together as these members have acted out time and time again, and he`s had to deal with some of the repercussions.
But you don`t see them really going all the way in reprimanding these members. Only two of them stood up in the House GOP conference meeting this morning that was Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene, according to our reporting as well. And they, you know, their comments were not really received very well by the rest of their members.
That being said, you don`t see McCarthy and Scalise speaking out publicly against them, because at the end of the day, they do hold the constituency that matters the most for a lot of these members, which is the attention of the Trump base and the former president himself.
RUHLE: All right, you know who else isn`t going all the way, the January 6 Committee. Joyce, if these tapes do not warrant a subpoena, what in the world will?
JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Will they do warrant a subpoena. The question is who from, Stephanie. And obviously Congress acts as a political body. There are political consequences for actions like becoming the first folks to issue subpoenas to other members.
The real issue here is whether there`s a criminal investigation, not into these people like McCarthy and Scalise, not with them as targets of the investigation but whether their testimony ultimately is deemed relevant to other ongoing investigations. We haven`t seen any subpoenas like that being issued by DOJ at this point.
But it`s really not hard to contemplate that they could reach a point where this testimony could become relevant and important. And DOJ doesn`t have the same political constraints that folks like the committee have.
RUHLE: We haven`t seen that from the Department of Justice, which is exactly why Michael Steele, on the show at this time last night asked this very question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL STEELE, FMR. RNC CHAIRMAN: Which smoke does this gun have to admit before there are consequences?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Neal, I feel that where`s the Department of Justice here?
NEAL KATYAL, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, Steph, I just have to say it`s always a privilege to be on with you, but never more so than after what you did last week. We`re all so grateful. So thank you.
RUHLE: Thank you.
KATYAL: There`s smoke, there`s fire. I mean, these audio calls, they`re like making crazy, crazy again. I mean, it`s unbelievable what is being said, and Joyce is absolutely right. There`s nothing indicating right now that McCarthy or Scalise or others are targets of a just permanent investigation.
But gosh, darn it, they are material witnesses at the very least. And, you know, I`m very respectful. And I`m proud of what the January 6 committee seems to have done so far. But not when it comes to members of Congress. I mean, they send them McCarthy a letter in January, saying it`d be nice if you could come in and tell us some things. McCarthy, of course, thumbed his nose at it.
And now we have 2,000 texts, and these audio calls showing that McCarthy was front and center in a lot of these events. And yet, the committee hasn`t subpoena. If it were you or me that had this information, we would have faced a congressional subpoena way earlier than, you know, we`ll move right away on day one. Here we are months.
RUHLE: But here`s the thing, Neal, you`re not unbelievable. It`s totally believable. Not -- none of us were, I mean, yes, you`re like, wow. Now we`ve actually seen it. We`ve heard it, but it`s not a surprise.
So given that, is anything that you`ve seen, actually illegal, and there will be consequences, because we`ve obviously seen none thus far, which is why Republicans don`t seem to care.
KATYAL: Absolutely. And indeed, a federal judge stuff in California has evaluated everything that`s happened. And the evidence of January 6 committees uncovered and said, it is more likely than not, that Donald Trump committed various felonies and very well respected judge going through the evidence and the like.
And what these texts do is they allow Congress, the Committee and Congress to have a basis for issuing that subpoena, because it`s one thing for you and I didn`t know and you know, in our hearts, what happened and we saw certain things, and we suspect certain things about Donald Trump and others. It`s a different thing when you have these texts in cold language saying, Here`s what I think, I think that Gaetz is putting people in jeopardy. I think it`s potentially illegal, what he`s doing. That`s what Representative Scalise said, and then you have all the stuff about Trump that`s in the texts.
RUHLE: And let`s get even more specific because Jackie, you`ve got reporting tonight that the committee is very interested in a specific text from Marjorie Taylor Greene about imposing martial law. You call it in part and part of the investigation why is that, besides her misspelling of Marshall?
[23:10:04]
ALEMANY: Yes. Marjorie Taylor grants Marshall plan was just one small part of the broader efforts that were taking place by these extreme GOP lawmakers and the former president`s fringe allies. People like Phil Waldron, Sidney Powell, Michael Flynn, Patrick Byrne, people who were actively visiting former President Trump in the Oval Office who were trying to get on his desk proposals to for the President to invoke extraordinary measures, using his presidential powers to really strong arm his way to overturn the results of the election that included trying to leverage government agencies to conduct investigations into quote unquote, foreign interference, all of this both bolstered by fraudulent claims.
So it wasn`t just Marjorie Taylor Greene. And as she indicates, in that text, some members, fellow Republicans agreed with this plan that that was being proposed and sent to Mark Meadows after the insurrection that already had killed six people and injured hundreds, some of which those police officers are still actively recovering from their injuries today.
And I think my last point is just I think what`s most shocking about all of this is that those members are still doubling down on those plans, even though they were again, bolstered by unsubstantiated claims.
Scott Perry told us today that there was nothing wrong with him asking the Department of Justice to look into the potential to seize these voting machines because of foreign interference.
RUHLE: And again, tonight, Marjorie Taylor Greene on Fox News asked about these texting. I do not recall.
Joyce, last week, she was on the stand under oath, really fighting for the ability to stay on the ballot to run again, she didn`t deny any of this, but she said she didn`t remember it. Does this new proof change anything in that case?
VANCE: So if we`re talking about whether or not Greene is susceptible of perjury charges in this Georgia State proceeding, that`s really not going to happen here. To successfully prosecute perjury, you have to have a precise matchup between the question and the answer. And that`s something that lawyers have to do very skillfully.
This wasn`t a hearing that was about perjury, it was about eliciting information to decide whether she can stay on the ballot.
And here again, if the hearing officer, the administrative law judge, and ultimately Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, if they are inclined to keep her on the ballot, I think it will be easy for them based on that hearing, to say that the plaintiffs in that case, Georgia voters didn`t meet their burden of proof of showing that she was involved in misconduct. And it`s because she used these very disingenuous, repeated answers saying that she didn`t remember anything.
So in terms of that proceeding, probably not a lot of movement towards taking her off the ballot. But again, and back to Neal`s point, what happens here is there becomes a basis for people to be subpoenaed. And you see in these texts and in her non-responsive answers, something that makes it legitimately possible for the January 6 Committee or DOJ to issue subpoenas and inquire further, who was in the room, who were you talking to?
There are a lot of lingering questions about participation by members of Congress, particularly this news that that was ongoing after January 6, when people saw the risks, when people saw the danger, and continued to try to perpetrate the big lie and interfere with the transfer of power. That`s a very ripe area for inquiry in a forum where she can be held to account for her faulty memory.
RUHLE: Neal, former Federal Judge Michael Luttig, he is a conservative icon. He`s written an op-ed titled The Republican blueprint to steal the 2024 election. He actually advised Mike Pence about the January 6 certification of Biden, in any scenario at any point in history, and op-ed like this should be a big, big deal. We saw similar letters, op-eds warnings from other icons and experts for the entire Trump presidency. And it didn`t change anything. So well, this?
KATYAL: I sure hope so. I can`t emphasize this enough. Judge Luttig is as conservative as it gets. I mean, Ted Cruz and John Eastman both were his former law clerks at the same time. Ted Cruz said Michael Luttig was quote, like a father to me. I mean, this is like Merrick Garland, writing an article saying that the Democrats in fact putting microchips in vaccines.
I mean, with the important distinction, of course, that what Judge Luttig said is actually true, unlike that, but that`s how seismic something like this is to have a really ribbed conservative say this and that what he said, is really quite astounding.
[23:15:00]
He said basically, that the Republican claims in 2020 were just a blueprint for 2024. It started in 2020 with this bogus independent state legislature idea that they tried to peddle to the Supreme Court, and they couldn`t get the Supreme Court to bite. And then Judge Luttig explains how they then pivoted to this whole alternative slate of electors idea, which is, of course, not a thing. There`s no alternate slate of electors. It`s like having alternate facts, or something like that.
And so I think Judge ludic is drawing a lot of attention to the problem. It`s really good that it`s coming from a conservative quarter, because I think all Americans should understand that there`s nothing more precious than our right to vote and to have it actually counted and not ripped away by some crazy legal theory that the, you know, that`s made up.
RUHLE: It shouldn`t be a big deal, that truth matters, but only if you hear it. And the question is, will those hardcore Republican base voters, are they going to read an op-ed from CNN, written by him? That I`m not so sure.
I want to thank you all for starting us off tonight. Jackie Alemany, Neal Katyal and Joyce Vance. Coming up, black mail. That is what the European Union is calling Russia`s decision to turn off the natural gas spigot to Poland and Bulgaria.
And later, according to at least one GOP member of Congress, no one cares about January 6. We`re going to dig into the growing political fallout from the latest reported revelations, THE 11TH HOUR just getting underway on Wednesday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:20:39]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: I would say today without giving whole numbers more than half of those houses are in Ukraine. We know they`re expending rounds every single day of all different types and calibers. And we`re doing everything we can the flow continues to make sure that they can stay in the fight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: And the administration is about to ask Congress for a lot more money to keep that military flow going. Sources say President Biden will propose another massive aid package tomorrow morning. And as we enter day 64 of the war, I want to bring in Cal Perry live in Kyiv.
Cal, we`ve seen reports of fires and explosions on the Russian side of the border. What do you know about that?
CAL PERRY, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so this is an interesting development in just the past 24 to 48 hours in at least three locations again, on the Russian side of that border major fires in industrial areas, one and an arms depot, two, at these oil facilities. These oil facilities are key for Russia to be able to resupply its own troops, one of those facilities with over 10,000 gallons of fuel another one with over 5,000. So these are vital infrastructure.
And then you have the Ukrainian government at least the senior adviser to the president, basically throwing shade at a time of war at the Russians. He tweets, quote, Belgrade, Moskva, Bryansk constant, quote, production issues, how can we not believe in karma for the murder of Ukrainian children. So not taking responsibility for these attacks.
And again, Russia is blaming the Ukrainian Armed Forces for these attacks. Some of the local governors in Russia saying they heard the sound of drones before the explosions and again, we know that this new military equipment is arriving here every day but the Ukrainian government not wanting to take responsibility for the attacks, part of that reason Stephanie may be the Russian president threatening the Capitol here of Kyiv saying that he will carry out airstrikes if attacks continue on the Russian side of the border. Stephanie.
RUHLE: Just as more and more Ukrainians are moving back to Kyiv. Cal Perry, thank you so much and stay safe where you are. Another big headline in the conflict today Russia`s decision to cut off fuel to Poland and Bulgaria. NBC`s Tom Costello has more on that part of the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
TOM COSTELLO, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Speaking to Russian lawmakers, Putin promised to respond quickly if outside countries interfere in Ukraine. Saying, our response to counter assaults will be lightning fast. We have all the tools for this. The kind that no one else can boast of right now and we won`t brag we will just use them if needed.
Today`s move represents the first time Russia has cut off oil and gas supplies since Putin warned on friendly countries would have to pay in Russia is struggling currency.
Europe relies heavily on Russian energy supplies. Nearly three quarters of Bulgaria`s natural gas comes from Russia. For Poland, it`s nearly half. Though, the country say they have enough reserve to last through the summer. Already natural gas prices are rising in Europe and the US.
DANIEL YERGIN, S&P GLOBAL VICE CHAIRMAN: Putin is going all out on this floor. And he`s sending the message that to the best of his ability. He`s going to use Russian energy exports as a weapon.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
RUHLE: Our thanks to Tom Costello. Let`s bring in retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. He`s the former director for European Affairs for the U.S. National Security Council with his expertise in Ukraine.
Colonel, I was under the impression that Ukraine has said over and over two European countries stop buying your oil and gas from Russia. So isn`t this what Ukraine wanted?
ALEXANDER VINDMAN, U.S. ARMY LT. COLONEL (RET.): It is and in fact, there was a dependency that many countries in Europe are reluctant to wean themselves off. The bottom line is in a lot of ways that Vladimir Putin continues to miscalculate. And by shutting off these gas flows, he`s making it easier for countries to make the decision to make the abrupt calls on shifting over to other suppliers.
He`s going after the smaller targets Bulgaria. Poland is not quite as small but he`s certainly holding off on trying to do the same thing with the big revenue flows coming in from Germany and from Western Europe. He`s testing the waters to see where you can develop seams and go after easier targets signaling that`s the direction he`s going in.
But that`s his nature. He`s going to continue to press where he sees vulnerabilities. In fact, Europe is no longer there`s -- no longer willing to accept this kind of pressure and it has pushed back it started doing that from the beginning of this war. So this is going to backfire on him just like all of his other activities since the beginning of this war.
[23:25:10]
RUHLE: But is that entirely the case, because there`s also reports that one Italian energy giant is trying to open up ruble accounts to specifically meet Putin demands that he only wants to trade in rubles, if we see that happen, not just with this one company, but with more could want that defeat the point of sanctions.
VINDMAN: To a certain extent, I think, frankly, Hungary already did that. Hungary agreed to pay in rubles and establish a ruble account. And the reason that, of course, the Russians want it is that the ruble is artificially inflated, and they could peg it at a place where they could get more revenues.
But that`s -- as long as the big economies don`t bend to Putin`s will, I think the fact is, he`s going to have -- he`s going to continue to struggle, and try to squeeze more part of that idea is also to artificially increase gas prices, and then reap some rewards from that.
So he`s looking at all the different means to continue to generate revenue, it`s not going to be sufficient to reduce the costs for all the impacts of sanctions. But he`s looking for different ways to do that.
RUHLE: How about some other news, we woke up to hear that prisoner swap between the U.S. and Russia, former American Marine, Trevor Reed, he was released in exchange for a Russian pilot. Were you surprised by that?
VINDMAN: So this is an issue. Trevor Reed is an issue that goes back to my time at the White House. He was detained during my tenure there. And it was a struggle to make any headway on that. The Russians use all of the detain us personnel as kind of hostages for hostage swap. So it`s an expectation that they`re going to do that with the remaining U.S. folks in detention.
It`s unclear to me, because I don`t see what`s going on now. Why Trevor Reed as opposed to some of the other detainees, but it`s good that we have Americans coming home.
RUHLE: But why would Putin play ball on anything in any -- on every other possible avenue over the last 60 days? He hasn`t suddenly this seems that a character?
VINDMAN: It`s not, I mean, these are really tactical -- small, little tactical maneuvers to see what he could what -- how he could open the door for other kinds of negotiations. I mean, this is -- what we see is a winding down of all the diplomatic activity across the board. So there`s an effort underway to keep a toehold in certain areas, see what kind of wheeling and dealing could be done very transactional, but to see what kind of opportunities are out there.
So, I wouldn`t read too much into it. I think this is just, you know, it`s unclear again, exactly why this particular transfer at this time, but he sought an opportunity to get one of his own people back. It`s actually my understanding is that it was a -- it`s a criminal cybercriminal that was transferred over, and that it was a deal long and coming in, managed to get across the finish line now.
RUHLE: Before we go, it is always important every year to acknowledge it. But this Holocaust Remembrance Day today has special significance, given everything that`s happening in Ukraine, especially with Putin is disinformation, this ridiculous false claim that the war is about denazification. Can Russia keep up this awful propaganda or Russians continuing to believe this?
VINDMAN: You know, it`s at moments, it`s about denazification. Other times it`s about NATO expansion, it kind of depends on which way the winds blow at the moment. The bottom line is almost none of this is really relevant. This is all rhetorical at this point. The Russians are not successful on the ground and Ukraine. They`re being stymied.
If you asked me if we could go, I had deeper concerns about the Russians making gains in the east, they have not managed to put together a significant offensive. They`re going to continue to feed troops in as cannon fodder.
And ultimately, with these weapons coming in from the U.S. side, these are important systems, we`re punishing Russia Ukrainian losses, these howitzers, and especially if they actually get these requests for drones, those are going to be the game changers and Russia is just not going to be able to hold on to this offensive for much longer.
RUHLE: All right, retired Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. Thank you for making us a little bit smarter tonight. Always good to see you.
Coming up, Republicans may be counting on voters` memory holding the horrors of January 6. Despite audio recordings, they`re hard to forget. Will it work when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:34:22]
RUHLE: House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy has been on the defense about leaked recordings of his comments following January 6, but not everyone in his caucus is too concerned.
Republican Congressman Glenn Grothman of Wisconsin told The Washington Post quote, I didn`t listen to it. And you know why? Because unless you`re a member of the press, nobody gives a damn about January 6. Nobody cares.
As many Republicans try to downplay the sixth, here`s a reminder of just some of what happened on that fateful day. And a warning, this video that you`re going to watch is disturbing.
[23:35:32]
RUHLE: With us tonight, Robert Gibbs, former Obama campaign senior advisor of White House press secretary under President Obama, and Geoff Bennett, Chief Washington correspondent for PBS NewsHour and an MSNBC political contributor.
Robert, it`s not just Republican saying it last night right here in this hour, Claire McCaskill said people don`t care about January 6, they care about inflation. Now, obviously, a lot of people do care about the sixth. And those people who do are already fired up, and they`re going to vote in the midterms.
But is there anything that this the January 6 committee could reveal that will bring in other voters and get them to the polls?
ROBERT GIBBS, FMR. OBAMA CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISOR: Absolutely. I think we don`t know the full extent of what the committee knows. We don`t know what text they have, that we haven`t been told about. We don`t know what other tape out there exists, what other reporters have. We don`t know if Kevin McCarthy will be asked to testify. We don`t know whether Mike Pence will. We don`t know whether Donald Trump will.
So I think there`s a lot of unknowns. We know the committee does want to do some primetime hearings, they`ll produce a final report. So I definitely think there`s a lot that still can be pieced together here.
And I can assure you this, despite the wishful thinking of that Republican about people not caring about January 6, a lot of Republicans are going to sleep every night in Washington, trying to remember what text they sent, what they said on phone calls that they now know are being taped. And I can assure you those tapes rattle a lot of Republicans in Washington that hope people forget, but it reminded because they`re now turning on the TV hearing their own voices.
RUHLE: But Geoff, what Kevin McCarthy said on those tapes was rational. And apparently today he was greeted by a standing ovation from his own caucus. Does that tell you that while people like Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene make a lot of noise and capture a lot of media attention. They`re not actually very influential. Marjorie Taylor Greene stripped over committee assignments last year, and she`s just a freshman.
GEOFF BENNETT, PBS NEWSHOUR CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, they`re not influential in Washington, DC. The reason why McCarthy got a standing ovation from his colleagues is because he recruited many of them to run for the House. He`s a prodigious fundraiser. He`s raised millions of dollars to keep them in their seats.
And we heard from so many Republican lawmakers of those who chose to speak to the press today. And they said things like, Oh, those conversations, that was a snapshot in time, 15 months ago, many of us had the same sort of private misgivings. McCarthy was boxed in.
And so now you have Republicans, they believe standing on the precipice of taking over the house come November, and they don`t want anything to get in the way. And they view this largely as a distraction. And when you have that Congressman saying that, Oh, nobody cares about January 6, you can argue that it is awful and appalling for any elected member of Congress to say that nobody cares about January 6. And that its history. That was the other part of the comment that he made its history. It`s old news, and in effect, he was saying.
But if that Congressman was talking about base Republican voters, I think he`s right. The Republican Party, I mean, that that is a commentary on the political forces driving the Republican Party right now.
And frankly, when I say forces, it shouldn`t be plural. It should be singular. The political force driving the Republican Party right now is Donald Trump. And Kevin McCarthy, just based on his behavior over the last three or four days, knows that to get crosswise with the former president puts himself in peril and puts the entire party in peril.
RUHLE: But of course, a reminder, Kevin McCarthy won his last election, Donald Trump lost his. Robert, President Biden expressed openness today to forgiving some student loan debt in a private meeting with some House Democrats, a hugely popular undertaking with younger voters.
In response, Mitt Romney, Republican obviously tweeted this, desperate polls call for desperate measures, Dems consider forgiving trillions in student loans, other bright suggestions, forgive auto loans? Forgive credit card debt? Forgive mortgages? And put a wealth tax on the super rich to pay for it all. What could possibly go wrong?
So what do you think who`s got the winning strategy here? Romney or Biden?
GIBBS: Well, I think President Biden does here and I think look, the White House is looking to give some certainty on this issue one way or another.
[23:40:00]
They`ve been doing monthly delays for quite some time as part of the pandemic. And making a decision now is important to give people that are having to pay those loans potentially back a little bit more certainty about what`s going to happen. But there`s no doubt that this is an animating issue.
And look, this is a good contrast. Let`s have a discussion about college affordability. Let`s get into a debate about who`s more concerned about making sure kids have the resources to go to college and fight against a multimillionaire doing it.
I think this is a fight. I think this is one fight. I think there are a lot of fights that this administration and the Democratic Party, you`re going to have to get into between now and November to draw some sort of contrast. If not, it`s going to be a referendum on Joe Biden
And with an approval rating in the low 40s, nobody`s going to like the outcome on the Democratic side of election night if we don`t start to set up a bit more of a contrast around what this election means for voters in November.
RUHLE: Or the Biden administration could remind voters of all the accomplishments they`ve had in the last few weeks. It`s a Supreme Court justice confirmed. When you look at Build Back Better, excuse me, the infrastructure bill now law, massive, massive win. And of course, we`re now in another phase of the Coronavirus.
Geoff, I know you`ve got more reporting on this doing something on student loans would certainly help get young voters out. But would it cost Biden votes with seniors and moderates?
BENNETT: That is something that I think this White House is willing to risk. There was a recent Quinnipiac poll that showed that Gen Z had sort of soured on President Biden that his approval rating with Gen Z people born after 1997, he was down 20 points from the time he took office.
And the reason for that is because younger voters don`t necessarily see themselves as being Democrats. They identify as being independents. And when President Biden loses party affiliation among younger voters, what that means is they`re not as inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and they`re not as inclined to see the urgency and going out to vote for a Democrat on the ballot.
And so doing something like erasing student loan debt would sort of cut through the noise. This is the view from political strategist Democrats that I`ve talked to would cut through the noise and remind young voters in particular, what`s at stake and why they should back this president.
RUHLE: All right, gentlemen, thank you for joining us this evening, Robert Gibbs and Geoff Bennett. Coming up. The fleecing of America is back. Why some are raising red flags over a pandemic loan for a company with surprise, surprise very close ties to the Trump administration when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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RUHLE: Over two years into this pandemic, we are still learning details about money from the first COVID relief package. Tonight as part of our series The fleecing of America, we`re looking at money specifically given to assist companies that were considered important to our national security.
Today, House Democrats released a report alleging Trump administration officials awarded a $700 million loan to a trucking company over clear objections of career defense officials.
The company YRC worldwide has since been rebranded as Yellow. The New York Times pointing out quote, Mark Meadows, the White House Chief of Staff was a key actor coordinating with Yellow`s lobbyists, according to correspondence that the committee obtained. The report also noted that the White House`s political operation was quote, almost giddy in its effort to assist with the loan application. The loan raised immediate question -- questions from watchdog groups because of the company`s close ties to the Trump administration. And because this company faced years of financial and legal turmoil.
The Washington Post reporting, in a letter to the committee responding to the report`s findings, which Yellow provided to The Post, the company`s lawyer, familiar name, Marc Kasowitz, said the committee had taken a partisan approach and was peddling baseless speculation and innuendo.
If you didn`t remember that name, Marc Kasowitz, he was previously Donald Trump`s personal lawyer.
With us tonight, Alan Rappeport, economic policy reporter for the New York Times. Break this down for us because this wasn`t just a PPP loan businesses could get money. This was a loan specifically for companies that help with our national security. And this company misrepresented how much business they do with our Department of Defense.
ALAN RAPPEPORT, THE NEW YORK TIMES ECONOMIC POLICY REPORTER: Exactly, and it was a $700 million loan which was by far the biggest loan of any of these companies got it actually was about 95 percent of all the National Security money that was given out. So it was very surprising to people when this came out back in 2020.
Investigations sort of started immediately once it became clear that there were a lot of ties between the company and the Trump administration. The company was financially backed by Apollo, the private equity group, which had close ties to the administration, its CEO was on President Trump`s COVID Economic Council.
And there had been an intense lobbying campaign as mentioned in the story, trying to get this company approved for this huge loan and the company had been almost on the verge of bankruptcy for years anyway. So this was really seize an opportunity to, you know, to give it a lifeline and a big bailout.
RUHLE: Apollo, the private equity giant that could have refinanced them, but why would you when the government will give even money.
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Why besides Oh, there homeboys with the Trump administration, why was the administration so jacked up to help them almost giddy? Why? What was in it for them?
RAPPEPORT: Well, the politics of it were really good in an election year. This is, you know, 30,000 truckers or so or employees or this company. It`s a union company. Jimmy Hoffa pitched President Trump on this directly in meetings.
And, you know, as we said, there was a lot of conversations between Mark Meadows, the political staff of the White House, trying to get this on board. Republicans and Democrats actually in Congress were also, you know, trying to lobby the Treasury Department to give this a close look. Because, you know, there were a lot of a lot of jobs at stake here.
RUHLE: Here`s where I wish this show had a gong, or like a walk wah soundbite, I know this loan is part of an investigation from the congressional oversight commission, that bipartisan commission meant to look at money that went to the wrong places, so investigation going on anything going to happen here?
RAPPEPORT: Well, you know, it`s really interesting. I don`t think that the money is going to be clack or anything like that. I think in terms of outcome, there`s going to be additional investigations, the Inspector General has been referred, the case has been referred to him. It`s possible that this could be referred to the DOJ if there are false claims that were made under the False Claims Act.
I think in the future, you know, we`re going to see additional restrictions on relief funds, the companies that have been accused of defrauding the government might have not have access to them, and additional sort of transparency requirements to make sure that there`s aren`t -- there are not conflicts of interest.
RUHLE: Are there any tangible things that we can point to that the government is doing right now to change the way we operate? I mean, things like this, voters don`t hear about them, right? This happens in closed door meetings in the dark of night. But voters on both sides of the aisle are disgraced by these types of stories. This is exactly why they hate government.
RAPPEPORT: Exactly. And there`s a lot of political sensitivity to this. I mean, there`s been, you know, $5 trillion dumped into the economy over the last few years and relief money, and lots of it has been misused and misspent and defrauded, just, you know, in part of the effort to get this money out there so quickly.
And this is a really ample, you know, of some of the questions surrounding that and a lot of the influence of lobbyists have had in Washington to make sure that money got into places and differently hands but not necessarily into the right hands.
RUHLE: When you think about a desperate time of economic crisis, you don`t think that lobbyists are there working the phones, but that`s exactly what happened. How many more yellows are out there? This is one story, one big story, but there are a lot more we`re going to hear about.
RAPPEPORT: I think so. I mean, there`s been, you know, a trillions of dollars of monies that have been spent since then the American Rescue Plan, you know, the Biden administration is the one that`s responsible for that, you know, we`re seeing lots of little cases of PPP fraud that are starting to trickle out from the Paycheck Protection Program, emergency rental insurance, as well as you know, the expanded unemployment insurance programs that, you know, people were getting money that they weren`t necessarily supposed to be getting.
So I think over the coming years, we`re going to see a lot of cases big and small of how some of this money was misused.
RUHLE: It`s not partisan, but it is awful. We`re going to keep covering it. Alan Rappeport, thank you for joining us tonight. Coming up why Boeing says they regret a deal with a former guy over the new Air Force One when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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DONALD TRUMP, FMR. U.S. PRESIDENT: Here`s your new Air Force One, and I`m doing that for other presidents not for me. We had different choices here. These are all slightly different.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABCN EWS: Is the frame still a 747.
TRUMP: It`s just 747. But you know, it`s a much bigger plane, bigger wingspan. It`s a much bigger wingspan. We added things. And I got 1.6 billion off the --
STEPHANOPOULOS: Everyone was --
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RUHLE: 1.6 billion off the price. The last thing before we go tonight Boeing`s bad deal. Boeing CEO today told investors they should not have agreed to Trump`s Air Force One deal back in 2018. In the first quarter of this year alone, the company has lost 660 million bucks related to that very contract.
As POLITICO explains, quote, instead of negotiating a contract that protected the company from changes in the supply costs and other factors, Boeing and Trump settled on a fixed price contract that forces the company to carry the risk and not charge the government. And as you may recall, Trump was very proud of that deal.
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TRUMP: I was going to say this is going to work for us well, which we ordered, which had been trying to order for a lot of years. When we got here, they were going to spend a lot more money than we spent. And I`m good at airplanes, OK. Been very good at airplanes. I said, So what`s the price? 5.7 billion. I said, You got to be kidding.
I said to Boeing, I`m not going to pay that price. And I said, I`m not paying. Cancel the contract. But then all of a sudden, it started dropping like a rock. And we agreed to 3.95. So that`s, that`s a long story on the beautiful Air Force One. So we have it coming in. And can you imagine after all, that, I better win this damn contest.
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RUHLE: Well, as we know, Trump didn`t win that damn contest in 2020. And in the end, neither did Boeing, the art of the deal. That is the danger of doing business with Donald Trump. Always has been, always will be.
And on that note, I wish you all a very good night from all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News. Thanks for staying up late with us. I`ll see you at the end of tomorrow.