Summary
Newly released audio reveals Rep. Kevin McCarthy said he would urge Trump to resign after the Jan. 6th riot, contradicting his denial hours before. It comes as Trump`s eldest son is expected to meet with the 1/6 committee in the coming days. Putin claims victory in Mariupol despite the hundreds of Ukrainians still holed up in a giant steel mill. President Biden unveils $800 million in new military aid for Ukraine.
Transcript
CHRIS JANSING, MSNBC HOST: Tonight there are tapes. Brand new bombshell audio of GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy saying the very thing he denied today about then President Trump after January 6.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, MINORITY LEADER: The only discussion I would have with him is that I think this will pass, and it would be my recommendation you should resign.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
JANSING: The fallout from this is just beginning. Then, another military aid package to support the Ukrainians. What`s different about these weapons and when will they get there?
Plus, a familiar voice sounds a warning and offer solutions in the battle against disinformation and its threat to democracy as THE 11TH HOUR gets underway on this Thursday night.
Good evening. Once again, I`m Chris Jansing in for Stephanie Ruhle. We begin tonight with that explosive new audio of House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy, recorded in the days after January 6, and the promise of even more audio to come.
This all has to do with how the two top Republicans in Congress privately pushed to punish Trump for the capital insurrection, but then eventually backed off. The revelations are in a new book called "This Will Not Pass: Trump Biden and the Battle for America`s Future" by New York Times reporters Alexander Burns and Jonathan Martin.
NBC News has obtained a copy of that book, which says that after the riot on January 10th 2021, House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy held a phone call with other Republican members including Liz Cheney, and disgust asking Trump to step down, quote, he envisioned telling Trump of an impeachment resolution. I think that will pass and it would be my recommendation, you should resign. I`ve had it with this guy, McCarthy said near the end of the call.
Today, McCarthy was quick to deny it all posting on Twitter, quote, The New York Times reporting on me is totally false and wrong. NBC News asked McCarthy`s office if Leader McCarthy said he would push Trump to resign, a spokesman said quote, no, he did not. But tonight, there are tapes. The book`s authors have just shared this recording of that January 10 phone call with Kevin McCarthy, which directly contradicts that denial.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MCCARTHY: Liz, you`re on the phone?
REP LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): yes, I`m here. Thanks, Kevin. I guess there`s a question when we were talking about the 25th Amendment resolution.
MCCARTHY: Yes.
CHENEY: And you asked it, you know, what happens if it gets there after he`s gone? Is there any chance? Are you hearing that he might resign? Is there any reason to think that might happen?
MCCARTHY: I`ve had some few discussions. My gut tells me no. I`m seriously thinking we`re having that conversation with him tonight. I haven`t talked to him a couple days. From what I know of them, I mean, you guys all know him to do thank you never back away. But when I think I`m going to do is I`m going to call him.
This is what I think, we know it`ll pass the House. I think there`s a chance to pass the Senate even when he`s gone. And I think there`s a lot of different ramifications for that.
Now, I haven`t had a discussion with the Dems that if the good design would not happen? Now, this is one personal fear I have. I do not want to get in in any conversation about party discussion I would have with him is that I think this will pass and it would be my recommendation you should resign. I mean, that would be my take, but I don`t think he would take it. But I don`t know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
JANSING: And the reporters who wrote the book told Rachel Maddow, there is a lot more audio out there. The book also describes Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell`s plans regarding a Trump impeachment. McConnell reportedly met with two longtime advisors on January 11, and quote, during that launch, McConnell told his advisers there would be at least 17 Senate Republicans ready to affirm Trump`s impeachment supplying the two-thirds vote needed to convict. Trump`s role on January 6, McConnell said was clearly impeachable. He suggested that he would be among the Republicans who would vote for conviction. If this isn`t impeachable, I don`t know what is, he said.
Senator McConnell`s office declined to comment on this report.
Meanwhile, NBC News reports Donald Trump Jr. eldest son of former President Trump is expected to meet with the January 6 committee in the coming days.
[23:05:06]
The panel did not issue a subpoena for the president`s son. And the source tells NBC the final date has not been scheduled, but it will not be this week.
With that, let`s bring in our experts Jackie Alemany, Congressional investigations reporter for The Washington Post and MSNBC contributor, Neal Katyal, Department of Justice veteran and former acting Solicitor General during the Obama administration who has argued dozens of cases before the U.S. Supreme Court. And A.B. Stoddard, veteran Washington journalist and associate editor and columnist for Real Clear Politics. A lot to get to.
A.B., during an interview with our own Rachel Maddow tonight, one of the Times reporters, Jonathan Martin said, there are indeed more revelations to come.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN MARTIN, AUTHOR, "THIS WILL NOT PASS": We have a lot more on tape from this period, which is at the highest levels of American politics. It is it is sensitive, it`s delicate, and it`s high stakes, and we have it all on tape. And it`s going to, I think, tell a very different story about this period than the story that many people are trying to tell right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: So A.B., if you`re Republican at the highest levels, who`s been critical of Donald Trump, how are you sleeping tonight?
A.B. STODDARD, REAL CLEAR POLITICS ASSOC. EDITOR AND COLUMNIST: Well, it that`s -- it`s incredible reporting. And it`s incredible that Jonathan is telling us that there`s so much more not only in bulk, but reported.
And it`s one thing to play the Republican narrative that the media is wrong and bias and make things up. It`s another thing to then be busted with the tape hours later. So this is not only a warning to Republicans all over town, at the highest levels. But it`s also an indication that the January 6 committee has known about this information all along, and the conversations that were had all along.
And that`s important for people who are going to be coming in front of the committee like Donald Trump, Jr. to know that there could be recordings of these phone calls. And it`s an amazing breathtaking failure on the part of Kevin McCarthy, simply because he has tried to ascend to the speakership for so long. And he`s made mistakes along the way that have proven that he is just simply too stupid to have this job, the idea that he put out an emphatic denial just hours ago, to be up like this with tapes, just hours later, is truly just an epic embarrassment to the Republicans and to the man who`s been trying to be Speaker for all these years now.
JANSING: So again, that was McCarthy on January 10. Jackie, we also have sound of him in the days after that, take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCARTHY: The President bears responsibility for Wednesday`s attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. These facts require immediate action for President Trump, except to share responsibility, quell the brewing unrest.
If you listen to what President said, at the rally, he said, demonstrate peacefully. And then I got a question later about whether did he incite them? I also think everybody across this country has some responsibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: So he went from what we heard on that tape, which I think is I`m going to ask him to resign to everybody else bears responsibility. And then a few days after that McCarthy was at Mar-a-Lago trying to make nice with Trump, what happened?
JACKIE ALEMANY, THE WASHINGTON POST CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATIOSN REPORTER: That`s a good question. And I know it`s something that the January 6 committee has been searching for an answer for throughout the course of their investigation that well as well, what, you know, other than the political expedient, the obvious political expedience of getting behind Trump, was there anything specific tangible that happened in those days that caused McCarthy to so radically turn.
But I have to add on to what A.B. said about sort of the political malpractice here. It`s pretty astonishing. There was already sort of a general consensus that McCarthy really tactically made a big misstep by pulling his members off of the January 6 Select Committee. It was sort of been viewed, especially as we`re getting ready tort for these June public hearings. The conversations have -- in -- with Republicans, at least my private conversations have really questioned why he would have given Democrats the opportunity to hold unfettered hearings without allowing any Republicans to at least provide some interruptions throughout this.
And now you have this, you know, perhaps the McCarthy team could have just ignored the story put out a no comment.
[23:10:03]
But they now have really just made the case for that many more questions about the issue and why he had the change of heart for him to come in and explain the evolution of his positions. We know the committee has already requested that he voluntarily come in and provide a deposition or an interview before them.
The red line so far has been that the committee is not going to subpoena those -- their fellow members, but we`ll see if this tape may be changes that in some way. So
JANSING: So Neal, talked about the January 6 committee what all this means and to A.B.`s point, if you`re going to go before the January 6 committee, you don`t know what tapes are out there. Every time somebody gets caught on tape, whether it`s a videotape, it`s an audio tape, and supposedly a closed door meeting or a phone call, we say don`t people know this is 2022 and anything can be recorded. Now, there`s a direct message out there to anybody before the January 6 committee, right? You don`t know if something you`re going to be asked about is on tape.
NEAL KATYAL, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR: Absolutely, Chris, this is like Lordy Gate (ph) times three. I mean, you know, McCarthy turns out to be as incompetent as getting a story out as he is governing. And you know, as they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely. But I guess in a pinch, the chance to be Speaker of the House will do the trick. And McCarthy was for condemnation and resignation before he was against it.
And to me, we`ve like been talking about what question but the why question is really important. Why does happen? Why does someone like McCarthy go from saying all this stuff privately, to be to basically trying to whitewash it later.
And I think one part of the story has been coming out, which is that the Republican Party was far more complicit in the January 6 plotting.
Take Mike Lee, someone whom I used to have a lot of respect for, turns out just over the last week revelation showing this guy was acting in many ways, like a secret coup plotter. And that`s why to pick up on Jackie`s point, we need a full accounting. We need -- right now like the Republican Party stands for three things pro-life, pro-guns, and pro-Trump trying to steal the 2020 election. And we need a full accounting. And that`s why the January sixth committee`s work is so important. Why discussions like the one we`re having tonight is so important.
And I think the January 6 committee needs to go further. Members of Congress look implicated in this and I want their testimony. And it`s true that the committee voluntarily asked McCarthy for his testimony. He said No, along with other members of Congress, and the story like tonight underscores why subpoenas have to be made to the members of Congress.
Now, you know, it`s absolutely fine --
JANSING: Who would be at the top of our list, Neal?
KATYAL: McCarthy. I mean, you know, I would start with him. You know, go serve, you know, the others who`ve been implicated in this, but I think they have to go before the Congress and tell the truth. They`re not above the law. If other people like you and me can be subpoenaed, why not them?
JANSING: You know, that January 10 phone call, obviously was with Liz Cheney. A.B., here`s what Charlie Sykes said earlier today about Cheney`s push for Trump to be punished.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE SYKES, EDITOR-AT-LARGE THE BULWARK: Kevin McCarthy knows he knew then. And he knows now that Liz Cheney was absolutely right. He led the lynch mob to take away her position. He is leading the campaign to excommunicate her from the Republican Party.
We also want to recognize that Kevin McCarthy is never going to tell the truth about this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: If he`s never going to tell the truth about this, and he clearly was caught not telling the truth, A.B., doesn`t matter. He has his eye on the speaker`s gavel. Is this going to throw up any kind of roadblocks for him?
STODDARD: Oh, yes, I do think it, it may. Because the last time he wanted to be speaker, he basically went on Fox and said, Yes, you know, we had these hearings into Benghazi, and we did it to take down Hillary Clinton and ruin her approval numbers. And his own members said, you know, you`re not really up to that, like you can`t go on TV and talk. So he lost it then.
And then as Jackie points out, taking his members, the remaining ones who are not quasi connected to January 6 off of that panel after Pelosi rejected Jim Banks and Jim Jordan, taking them all away. Infuriated, many people in the conference who said we know what --we don`t have an inside man. We have no visibility into this.
And to Neal`s point, Kevin McCarthy has a lot more visibility into the complicity of the rank and file Republicans involved with January stick than Mitch McConnell does. He probably didn`t know that Mike Lee was involved texting with the White House. He probably knew only that Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz are running for president and wanting to get out there and vote to decertify and lead the effort to Congress.
[23:15:02]
But he probably didn`t know which other members running around getting involved in this mess. But I think Kevin McCarthy has much more visibility into how many members in the House are really complicit in January 6, either in their knowledge before or, or text during the day, all sorts of details, he must go before the committee, and they should subpoena him if he lies under oath that says.
JANSING: Jackie, with more to come more tapes, more revelations, what are you looking for from Trump?
ALEMANY: Certainly looking forward to his reaction. You know, I`m not sure what form we`ll be getting that and I`ve been refreshing my e-mail to see if we`ve gotten any e-mails, e-mail blasts from the Safe America pack.
But I do think that reaction will be telling, especially as McCarthy is in a little bit of a precarious situation here trying to build some support from an unruly conference that has been reluctant to give him that full support when it comes to potentially being speaker if Republicans take back the majority in November.
And, you know, as we`ve all been along on this ride over the past year and a half, he has struggled with this insurrectionists caucus, these fringe your far right members to kind of keep them in the big tent in his -- on his team.
And I think that that challenge just got that much harder for him going forward, how McCarthy is going to explain this, how he`s going to show up on Monday before reporters who are going to be, you know, on him in the hallways asking for really the bottom line about his view on January 6, and you know, his view on Trumpism going forward.
JANSING: And to the other revelation today, Neal, NBC confirming about Donald Trump Jr. going before the committee. What information do you suspect they`re going to try to get from Donald Trump Jr? and what are the chances they actually get it?
KATYAL: So I mean, Don, Jr. of course his fiance, Kim Guilfoyle already testified before the Committee on Monday. So when faced with a choice between voluntary cooperation and a subpoena, Don Jr. chose the more noble path, making his fiance do it first. And the whole thing, there`s going to be like an episode of succession where the whole family turns into cousin Greg, and so I`m not, you know, optimistic that we were going to actually get much truth out of this. I`ll believe it when I see it.
You know, I suspect the Junior will assert privileges just like lots of other people. They`ve always been thrown out by the courts time and again, including executive privilege. But I think what the committee is going to want to know is things like, look, two days after election day, you sent a memo -- you sent a message to Mark Meadows that said, quote, we have multiple paths to control the election.
Well, can we control them all? What does that mean? And well, how does that plot you what else was going on in terms of the communication between the Trump family Trump and, you know, the levers of power, like the Chief of Staff, one of the most important people in the entire country?
JANSING: So many serious questions, but also the all important cousin Greg mentioned, and I think we could do an entire podcast on who is the cousin Greg in this scenario, that`s for another day. Neal Katyal, Jackie Alemany, A.B. Stoddard. What a great panel to start us off. Thank you.
Coming up, we`re going to ask General Barry McCaffrey about the $800 million in new weaponry headed to Ukraine. Can these newly built tactical ghost drones make a big difference in this fight?
Then later, President Obama`s powerful message on fighting disinformation why he says every American is facing a critical choice for the future of democracy. THE 11TH HOUR just getting underway on a Thursday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:23:25]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: In the past two months, we move weapons and equipment to Ukraine at record speed. We won`t always be able to advertise everything we -- that our partners are doing to support Ukraine`s fight for freedom but to modernize Teddy Roosevelt`s famous advice. Sometimes he will speak softly and carry a large Javelin because we`re sending a lot of those in as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: The Pentagon says the newest military aid package is tailored to meet Ukraine`s needs for the next phase of the war in the east. It includes $800 million in weapons, including 72 howitzers, 144,000 rounds of ammunition, and 121 tactical drones known as Ghost drones. They were specifically designed by the Air Force to meet Ukraine`s needs.
Senior White House officials believe this next phase of the war will be pivotal. NBC`s Erin McLaughlin has the latest from Kyiv.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tonight, Russian President Vladimir Putin declaring victory over the besieged port city of Mariupol, telling Russia`s defense minister congratulations. Russia controls nearly all of what`s left in the city, but not this massive steel mill, where the last Ukrainian troops are still holed up.
Putin ordering Russian forces to seal it off. So quote, not even a fly can pass through until those Ukrainian troops run out of food and surrender.
But inside the plant a Ukrainian fighter sent us this video insisting Putin`s victory declaration is alive. Meanwhile, authorities only managing to evacuate dozens of civilians since yesterday taking them to nearby Zaporizhia.
[23:25:03]
Tonight, NBC`s Matt Bradley speaking to this child, who was crying, saying he can`t understand why Putin destroyed his home.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
JANSING: Let`s bring in Ashley Parker, Pulitzer Prize winning White House bureau chief with the Washington Post and retired four star US Army General Barry McCaffrey, a decorated combat veteran of Vietnam and former battlefield commander in the Persian Gulf. Thanks to both of you for being here.
I mean, General, there`s no good answer to the question that little boy asked. But the Pentagon says this new military package could provide a powerful answer to Ukraine`s military requests. How well suited is it to the kind of fighting you expect the Ukrainians to be seeing in the Donbas region? And what can you tell us about these weapons?
GEN. BARRY MCCAFFREY, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, I think there`s a huge amount of momentum now being built up by the Biden team, we now have essentially five battalions of 155 artillery, the most modern version, the triple seven headed to fight in Ukraine. The thing could range 25 miles and we`ll hit within 30 feet of a target. So it`ll be crucial fighting a Russian army that basically is heavy on artillery force.
They also got a lot of loitering munitions going and both Switchblade 300. And I hope soon 600, and now the new Air Force munition 121 of them, which has largely classified capabilities, but these things are man portable vehicle portable, capable of knocking out armor, capable of loitering over the battlefield for 30-40 minutes identifying a target. I think it`s a game changer if we if the Ukrainians can absorb it rapidly enough.
And finally, Chris, I think one of the most important things White House has done now. They just appointed a special assistant to the president, retired three star General Terry Wolf, superbly qualified to do this. He`s been in and out of the National Security Council, the JCS. He`s got 10 years in Europe. He knows the situation. So he`ll work with the U.S. defense industry, with our allied partners, with Ukrainians. And I think we`ll get more coherent control over trying to get this into the hands of the fighters.
JANSING: So we have seen this escalation, Ashley. And in fact, next week, President Biden, we`re told is going to ask Congress for yet another wave of funding to make sure those weapons and ammunition continue to flow without interruption. How confident is the administration that they`re going to get what they need from Congress?
MCCAFFREY: Well, it certainly. Excuse me.
ASHLEY PARKER, THE WASHINGTON POST WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF: Sorry, go ahead.
JANSING: Sorry, Ashley.
MCCAFFREY: No, go ahead.
PARKER: It`s a good question. And in part, I think some of the context is relevant that this administration are ready, in his entire time in office has given $4 billion in aid to Ukraine, over 3 billion of that come in the past year.
And so, on the one hand, Congress has shown itself pretty ineffectual, generally, and even in the run up to the invasion when they couldn`t kind of agree on a sanctions package. But you see from lawmakers in both parties, they all in different ways, and in different levels of sort of aggressiveness want to help Ukraine. And this feels like an issue that should not be particularly controversial. This is one of the powers of the first that Congress has.
And one of the ways that all these lawmakers who are calling for more artillery, more weapons to Ukraine, some pushing to go even further than the administration wants to go could offer the president to get that aid to Ukraine as soon as possible.
JANSING: Give me your assessment, General, of where things stand in Mariupol. I mean, obviously, Putin has claimed victory, Ukrainian say it`s a lie. The Pentagon says it`s still contested. What do you see?
MCCAFFREY: Well, it`s a remarkable heroic defense of a built up area, it`s thrown the Russian attack plan from the south off for the better part of 50 some odd days now. It`s been simply astonishing. The tactical effectiveness encouraged these handful of fighters allegedly 1,000 to 2,000 left fighting in Mariupol. A lot of civilians are still trapped in there.
The Russians, you would think would have surrounded it and bypassed that instead they`ve expended masses of casualties in an effort to take it down.
Eventually, they`ll get it but they`re going to get a destroyed facility, a huge burden to them. There`ll be a couple of 100,000 people they`re going to have to try and do something with.
It`s a demonstration of the general officer incompetence of the Russians in this campaign so far, but the big battles coming 85 battalion tactical group, the Russians have now amassed in the east. The world .
[23:30:04]
JANSING: But how organized they, General, and what`s their morale like? Do we know?
MCCAFFREY: Well, I think we believe they`re pretty disorganized. They lost 25 percent of the force they put in there, they may have had as many as these numbers are pretty soft, 35,000 killed and wounded. They`re emptying out their officer training schools and putting new kids into battle. They`re conscripting well over 100,000 young Russian men. I bet they get stuck in that battle largely untrained. They`ve lost a lot of their general officers trying to lead from upfront, and they`re scared of Putin.
So, if not a very effective for us. The leadership in the Ukrainian side is immensely better as the quality and motivation of the troops, but weapon technology may well be the crucial factor. So we`ve got to get packages delivered training and maintenance in the coming weeks.
JANSING: And Ashley, in our final minute, I want to ask you beyond the military help the President also today made official, that accelerated program to allow 100,000 Ukrainian refugees into the U.S. 500 million indirect economic aid to the Ukrainian government. There has been criticism that the Biden administration hasn`t kept up with its promises to help refugees. What are you hearing from the White House about this?
PARKER: Well, this was a pledge he had made on his foreign trip that I accompanied him on, even at that moment, there was still some frustration that that number of refugees that 100,000 should be higher. You have to keep in mind there`s about 5 million refugees, total countries like Poland and Russia`s neighbors are really bearing the brunt of them.
But this is certainly when you look what immigration advocates have talked about people who are foreign policy experts. They say that, laying out the specifics how these refugees will come, what programs they will be able to get into the United States with, what is required, who can sponsor them if they are not up for a legal pathway to citizenship, which is not all of the pathways in is a feared tangible step for 100,000, which is a large number, but still a small percentage of the overall refugees fleeing that crisis in Ukraine.
JANSING: Ashley Parker, General Barry McCaffrey, thank you both. And coming up, President Obama lays out the high stakes in fighting disinformation. His dire warning when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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[23:27:32]
JANSING: Tonight former President Obama sounding the alarm on the dangers of disinformation. In his lengthy speech today at Stanford, the backyard of Silicon Valley, he warned that tech platforms have been central to dividing us spreading lies and endangering democracy as we know it.
With us tonight, Clint Watts, West Point graduate, Army veteran and former FBI special agent. He`s also a distinguished Research Fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute with a focus on terrorism, counterterrorism, social media influence and Russian disinformation.
Always good to see you, Clint. Help us get this into context. Is the situation as dire as the former president put it?
CLINT WATTS, FMR. FBI SPECIAL AGENT: I think it is. I think one of the things we learned over the last six to seven years is that people are too often choosing the information that suits what they want to hear from people that look like them and talk like them and sort of digital tribes.
And this has led to things like the erosion of trust and vaccines or public health officials. We`ve seen it with our election infrastructure and the integrity of the vote. We`ve also seen in terms of our foreign adversaries essentially use information to manipulate us to try and convince us things that aren`t true.
So across the board, I think the situation is quite dire, and is the phenomenon of disinformation, misinformation continues, becomes very difficult to hold together the institutions of democracy, essentially the govern whenever no one has trust.
And I think there were some -- there`s some polling out even today that I saw this showed that all-time lows for trust in terms of governance, and in terms of the media, and that is due in large part to social media in itself.
JANSING: Well, I mean, President Obama mentioned regulation as a possible solution for some online platforms. And he also criticized their profit motive here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FMR. U.S. PRESIDENT: These companies need to have some other North Star other than just making money and increasing market share. Fix the problem that in part they helped create, but also to stand for something bigger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: If these platforms incentivize misinformation for engagement for profit, what kind of regulation prevents that?
WATTS: Yes, I think that`s what`s interesting, Chris, is none of the solutions are particularly good on the regulatory side because the two sides ends of the political aisle don`t agree on what the problem is. You have certain party largely a Democratic party that wants to take down certain pieces of content.
[23:40:09]
You have the Republican Party saying that they`re being censored while also burning books in some states.
So it`s hard to get consensus around what the rules are, because they don`t agree with the problem is. They just all sort of point to the social media companies. So to some degree, I have sympathy for the social media companies in the sense that they`re not sure what to police because no one can tell them what the rules are, what the boundaries are.
However, social media companies have for far too long focus very heavily on increasing the number of users and user engagement. And what we found with user engagement is things that are sensational taken out of context, things that aren`t exactly true, tend to proliferate and spread very, very quickly. They`re emotional. They engage in some ways that we don`t entirely understand.
And a lot of the algorithms which the social media companies use, don`t really have a test drive. They`re launched out onto the public without us really knowing what happens to us as users and consumers of social media.
This is all a large problem. And I think the last thing is, the idea of global tech companies has come to a very quick end. The internet has already really broken up into three pieces. There`s China`s internet, there`s the Western free internet, and there`s distorted internet`s between Russia being one of those.
Companies will have to pick a side. You`re either a tech company works with authoritarians, or you`re a tech company that supports democracy. You`re going to have to pick. You won`t be able to do both in the future.
JANSING: Let me ask you quickly about one more thing the former President referenced, there was a recent study that paid Fox viewers to watch CNN and it led to measurable changes in their understanding of current events. So maybe with effort, there`s still hope.
WATTS: It`s true. There`s two parts to this. It`s one part algorithm, it`s one part us. The algorithm plays to confirmation bias, implicit bias, and availability, bias, whatever -- whoever makes the most content, it`s most likely to be seen, and oftentimes, that`s disinformation pedalers.
But there`s a human component to it too, which is what we tend to believe that which we see first that which we see, the most that which comes from a trusted source, and that which has no rebuttal. This shows you that if you are watching Fox News, all the time, and you just hear the same thing over and over. Or if you`re in Russia today, and you`re listening to Russian state media over and over, you will tend to believe it, especially when there`s no alternative.
I think that`s what that switch to CNN sort of study is showing when there`s an alternative people are open minded, but they have to be able to see it.
JANSING: Clint Watts, always good to see my friend. Thank you.
Coming up, Georgia`s most controversial member of Congress takes the stand tomorrow as she struggles to keep her place on the ballot, a preview when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:47:30]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RON FEIN, FREE SPEECH FOR PEOPLE LEGAL DIRECTOR: She called for Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden to be executed for treason. She told her followers that they couldn`t allow a peaceful transfer of power. She worked with the planners of some of the events of January 6 and then the day before the attack. She signaled to her followers a code word that meant to storm federal buildings and supposedly overthrow tyrants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: Tomorrow, Marjorie Taylor Greene will become the first member of Congress to testify under oath about January 6. And as that lawyer just spelled out, there could be plenty of tough questions. He represents a group of Georgia voters suing to have Greene kicked off the ballot under Section 3 of the 14th amendment which reads in part, no person shall be a senator or representative in Congress who shall have engaged in insurrection against the United States.
Let`s bring in Greg Bluestein, a political reporter for the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Also, author of "Flipped: How Georgia Turns Purple and Broke the Monopoly on Republican Power."
Always good to see you. So, Greene has argued that January 6 was not an insurrection, but also that the 14th Amendment doesn`t apply to her because she`s not a former Confederate. What should we look for tomorrow?
GREG BLUESTEIN, POLITICA REPORTER ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION: Yes, I`ll be in that courtroom. And we expect her to also say that challenge is nothing more than a publicity stunt by political enemies who want her out of office. And she`s framing this overall as part of this broader anti- democratic effort to block her for running for another term, and depriving voters of the chance to elect candidates of their own choice.
So this is part of basically a sort of a mantra of grievances from Marjorie Taylor Greene, saying that she is the victim here, that she is the one being having the table`s turned on her.
JANSING: Of course, there`s a difference between a political argument and a legal argument. But let me ask you what happens in the 14th district if she is disqualified?
BLUESTEIN: Yes, I mean, her name would be off the ballot. And if it`s too late to take her name off the ballot, then voters would be advised that she is disqualified and any voters for -- any votes for her would be discarded. That would give an open pathway to one of the several Republican rivals running in that race. And of course, there`s multiple Democrats running in that district as well. But this is a very conservative northwest Georgia territory.
Even though Republican lawmakers in Georgia who are no fans of Marjorie Taylor Greene drew it to be slightly more democratic is still heavily favors Marjorie Taylor Greene or whatever Republican is on the ballot.
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JANSING: I mean, she at least was incredibly popular, right? I mean, in 2020, she won nearly 75 percent of the vote in her district. Is there any sense that her actions impacted her popularity there? I mean, how closely are voters in Georgia`s 14 from watching this case?
BLUESTEIN: You know, many of rally to her defense. She`s held multiple town halls and pro-gun rallies and other events that I`ve attended up in northwest Georgia that have attracted huge crowds. And when I interview voters there, many of them say that they either -- this either, you know, bolsters their support for her, or that they ignore the national media. They ignore the media narrative, and that they back her.
But, of course, there`s also Republicans who are embarrassed by her antics. There`s of course, some Democrats embarrassed by her antics too. But whether they can cobble together a coalition to defeat her remains to be seen, it`s going to be really, really tough in a district that read, that conservative leaning to see an incumbent Republican like Marjorie Taylor Green ousted.
JANSING: Yes. Which brings me to the question of how far money can get you, Greg. I mean, your reporting shows that Greene`s Democratic challenger has outraised her in the first quarter, what, 2.4 million to her 1.1 million. But I mean, is that a good indication of her relative standing? Does it just represent how much people are willing to invest against Marjorie Taylor Greene?
BLUESTEIN: Yes, I think it represents just what a polarizing figure she is because trust me, she`s using this trial to run, to raise even more money from conservatives. As we speak, there`s probably a raft of fundraising e- mails ready to go out tomorrow to raise more money, but so are Democrats and so are her Republican challengers. And Democrat Marcus Flowers as the candidate you mentioned, he`s one of several Democrats running. He`s raised overall, about $7 million.
She`s raised overall about $8.4 million. So we`re talking huge money in a congressional district like this, but again, it`s going to be real hard for Marcus Flowers or any other Democrat to topple her.
JANSING: Greg Bluestein, you`re going to have an interesting day in court tomorrow. That`s for sure. Thanks so much for being with us tonight.
Coming up the five people who are said to embody what President Kennedy admired most in others political courage, this year`s profile and Courage Award winners when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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JANSING: The last thing before we go tonight, "Profiles in Courage" the name of a book by John F. Kennedy and since 1989, the name of a prestigious award given by the JFK Library Foundation.
And at a time when we so often see democracy under attack, it is worth noting what the foundation said today in honoring a record five people. These honorees have placed their careers and their lives on the line to protect democratic principles and free and fair elections. They embody what President Kennedy admired most in others, political courage.
The kind of staggering courage we`ve seen from Ukrainian President Zelenskyy. For the past 57 days, he`s refused to leave Ukraine bravely fighting for the right to remain free from Russia`s rule inspiring the world.
Then there`s Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, a Democrat who faced threats for defending the certification of her state`s election results. Here`s what she told Rachel Maddow earlier this year.
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JOCELYN BENSON, MICHIGAN SECRETARY OF STATE: It`s so important for us to not just ensure truth continues to emerge as to just how far folks were willing to go to overturn a free and fair election just because they didn`t like the results. Because we not only need to see justice and accountability in this matter for those who broke the law. But we need to work to put protections in place to ensure we do not see a repeat of these nefarious tactics in future elections.
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JANSING: There`s also the bravery of Wandrea "Shaye" Moss of Georgia falsely accused by Trump and his supporters of processing fake ballots for Joe Biden threats followed. She had to change her appearance and go into hiding, yet she continues to work as a voter registration officer.
The final two recipients are also public servants who put country before party, Republican Arizona House Speaker Russell "Rusty" Bowers faced enormous pressure to change the results of the 2020 election in his state. But on December 4, 2020, he said in a statement, I voted for President Trump and worked hard to reelect him. But I cannot and will not entertain a suggestion that we violate current law to change the outcome of a certified election.
And finally Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming, one of just two Republicans on the January 6 House Select Committee, her vocal opposition to Trump`s Big Lie has led to threats to motions from her own party and a primary challenge.
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CHENEY: Former President Trump continues to make the same claims that he knows caused violence on January 6, unfortunately, too many in my own party are embracing that former President or looking the other way or minimizing the danger. That`s how democracies die.
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JANSING: In a statement today, using a quote from Kennedy`s 1961 inaugural address, Cheney turned the attention back to the war on Ukraine. In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom and its hour of maximum danger. Today, we stand at another hour of maximum danger in the cause of freedom.
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President Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian people are teaching a new generation of Americans what our founding fathers learned firsthand, absolute and uncompromising courage in the face of tyranny.
To those award recipients who have been at the forefront of the fight for democracy, we thank you for your courage and determination.
And on that note, I wish you a good night from all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News. Thanks for staying up late. See what the end of tomorrow.