Summary
After promising to scale back troops, Russia continues strikes in Ukraine. It comes as declassified U.S. intelligence suggests Putin is being misinformed by his advisers about the war. President Biden pushes for more COVID funding in anticipation of another surge. And as democracies are threatened around the world, there`s a new focus on the people behind the founding of democracy in America like Benjamin Franklin.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Tonight`s "LAST WORD" is booster. THE 11TH HOUR with Stephanie rule starts now.
[23:00:22]
STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, Russia`s doodle attacks do not end despite a promise to pull back. Putin`s advisors now lying to him about how badly his forces are doing.
Then, new reporting about the Justice Department expanding its investigation into January 6. The clues the former president`s missing call logs might provide.
An acclaimed filmmaker and historian Ken Burns is here with a reality check on the state of our democracy as the 11th Hour gets underway on this Wednesday night.
Good evening. Once again, I`m Stephanie Ruhle. Vladimir Putin`s war on Ukraine is entering day 36 and Russian forces are bombarding areas around Kiev. Just hours after pledging to scale back its attacks near the city. The Pentagon now calling the Kremlin`s latest moves, a repositioning rather than withdraw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: We`ve seen them begin to reposition less than 20 percent. Our assessment on today, and we think some of them not all, but some of them have already moved into Belarus.
It`s our assessment that they that -- their intention is to reposition these units so that they can refit them for future operations. The airstrikes have not stopped, not at all. So Kyiv as I said yesterday is still very much under threat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: And now declassified U.S. intelligence suggests Putin is being misinformed by his own advisers about the war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE BEDINGFIELD, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATION DIRECTOR: We have information that Putin felt misled by the Russian military which has resulted in persistent tension between Putin and his military leadership. We believe that Putin is being misinformed by his advisors about how badly the Russian military is performing and how the Russian economy has been crippled by sanctions because his senior advisors are too afraid to tell him the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Meanwhile, survivors in liberated cities are starting to emerge from their shelters. Richard Engel brings us the latest from Eastern Ukraine tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
RICHARD ENGEL, NBC NEWS CHIEF FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Leaving the city of Kharkiv today, it doesn`t take long to reach the front line. Russian troops destroyed these cars while trying to invade the city. But in the fields overlooking the highway, we followed Ukrainian troops to see what U.S. officials tell NBC News Russian generals are afraid to show their president that the Russian military is losing ground and suffering too many losses to hide.
Russia never expected its invasion to be stopped in its tracks. Knocking out this position also allowed Ukrainian troops to recapture today, the nearby village of Molarohan (ph) from Russian soldiers.
The Bubcal (ph) family was enjoying their new freedom. The bombings were horrible. The airstrikes were the worst says Nadia. They showed me where they`ve been hiding all this time without power. I have a flashlight on my phone. Let`s see if we can do it. They stay down in this cold crab cellar for the last 27 days.
(on camera): The worst is over.
(voice-over): I hope our soldiers tame this beast. The Russian president is deranged say Leonid (ph). I wish his kids would have to go through this. Maybe then it would be different.
His granddaughter Elisa spent her time drawing on the walls, images of happier days. It was my therapy to keep calm she says. 88-year-old Praskovia was sitting by herself disoriented and frightened. I`m so afraid my whole body is shaking. At night I cover myself in a blanket and I shake she says this. Mostly, she wanted comfort. Praskovia says she lived through World War II and doesn`t have the strength to go through it all again.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
RUHLE: Our thanks to Richard angle for that report. Earlier today on a call, President Biden told Ukrainian President Zelenskyy that the United States will send an additional $500 million in aid to the Ukrainian people.
While the White House is also keeping a close eye here on the pandemic, President Biden pressuring Congress for more funding to fight COVID. He then received his fourth shot after the CDC and FDA signed off on a second booster for adults ages 50 and older.
But let`s get back to the war in Ukraine and bring in my good friend, partner and colleague Ali Velshi joining us from Lviv. Ali, I know earlier today you were speaking to the city`s deputy mayor. And during that conversation, air sirens went off how concerned is he?
[23:05:02]
ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST: You know it was supposed to be a very rainy day. It`s been raining a lot here and so we thought we do it in his office and it was sunny so we thought we just take a walk. Lviv is a beautiful, beautiful city.
And as we started talking, the air raid sirens went on and when you look at this, this is a place that`s got coffee shops, it`s cold weather out here, but people sit outdoors and have their coffee. And then these air raid sirens go off. We only had two today. And we were you can see sort of around the edges. People are moving away. Some of them are going into shelters, but it`s become normal. They`ve been trying to have some semblance of life in Lviv.
Here`s the interesting thing. Lviv is a city of a million people, lots have left now. They`ve gone west to other parts of Ukraine or to Poland or Hungary or other countries and lots of people from the east where Richard was just reporting from have come to Levine so it`s almost like a waypoint.
I will say it`s even after the sirens go off. You run into people who are still sitting outside, they`re still having their coffee. But after the airstrikes this weekend on Lviv right around behind where I am now, people are starting to take it a little more seriously. They`re starting to get a little more concerned, Steph.
RUHLE: Ali, I saw you earlier tonight reporting on a different style of fighting happening in Ukraine, the digital front, can you explain this?
VELSHI: Yes, this is the country has actually been pretty advanced on the digital front. So we all have this app. It`s a government app. Everybody`s got it on their phone, and it tells you, right now you see the blue checkmark, it means everything is safe, it`ll go red if there`s an air raid siren, which in a city like this doesn`t make any difference, because you can hear the air raid sirens, but a lot of Ukraine is rural. So you can`t hear the sirens. Everybody`s got this on their phone.
But actually, there`s a lot more you can do. There`s a chat bot that everybody can get meaning it`s a computerized bot, you can report the location of Russian troops. And they`ll geo locate your phone to make sure that you are, who you are. And they say who you are. In Ukraine they`ve got a system that authenticates every user of the government app. So they know that it`s actually you. And they`ll dispatch that information to the military.
So that`s just one piece of what they`re doing. That`s a chatbot you`re looking at on TV, then they`ve also got a system where they`re recruiting IT people again, this is a big it country, there`s -- this is a back office for a lot of IT companies around the world. They`re recruiting these people into the military to help with the offensive.
As you know, we`ve worried for a long time that Russia`s response to this will be a massive cyberattack not just on Ukraine, but any allies. Russia has threatened this. It hasn`t fully materialized and one of the people I spoke to from the government says it`s not they`re not trying. It`s that actually this is a place where Russia has got a lot of strength in the cyber world. So, the Russian Ministry of sort of the digital technology here calls it World Cyber War number one, Steph.
RUHLE: Cyber war number one Ali Velshi, thank you so much. I`m going to let you rest. It`s what, 5:00, 6:00 in the morning there. You need a break and I am going to bring in our experts, two of our own national security analysts, Juan Zarate. He was the former deputy national security adviser to President George W. Bush, and Jeremy Bash, former chief of staff at the CIA and the Pentagon.
Jeremy, we`ve seen this before. Trump advisors often shielded him from the truth, but in that case, it was protecting him. It was about his ego. If Putin`s advisors are doing the same thing, should we be a lot more worried you`re talking about a war not just an ego?
JEREMY BASH, FMR. CIA CHIEF OF STAFF: Yes, fascinating, Stephanie, on two levels. First of all, the fact that Putin`s advisors would not tell him the ground truth of what`s happening in Ukraine showcases just how broken his apparatus is, just how damaged the trust is between him and his defense ministry, with his defense minister Shoigu previously in the inner circle. Now on the outs. It showcases the fact that Putin does not tolerate or countenance any bad news, he shoots the messenger. It`s the exact opposite of our system, as you referenced in our system emblazoned on the wall at the CIA wire used to work.
It was a quote from the New Testament it said you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. And that aphorism, that ideal that you got to tell leaders the truth, even if it`s painful for them to hear it, you know, that`s an article of faith for the our intelligence community. And it goes against, you know, everything that we stand for, to not tell leaders the truth.
It`s also fascinating that the U.S. quickly declassified this information. Kate Bedingfield, articulating it from the White House podium showcases another one of the strategic reclassifications at this Biden team has been so great at lately.
RUHLE: It harkens back to a term Kellyanne Conway once coined alternative facts. There`s no such thing. Juan, I want to share a bit of what Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIRBY: When she does learn the truth, when he actually begins to realize how badly his military is doing in Ukraine, you don`t know what kind of reaction that`s going to cause in him. If Mr. Putin is being not informed about what going on on the ground it could affect the way they`re negotiating certainly and lead to worse outcomes for Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[23:10:05]
RUHLE: Do you agree with that?
JUAN ZARATE, FMR. DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT BUSH: Well, I think Putin has a wildcard and I think the danger here is that if Putin feels cornered, feels that he doesn`t have the ground truth that he needs, if he feels like he`s weaker, in the eyes of his enemies, or even in reality, he will lash out with even greater force.
I think the danger here is we know that Putin knows he has to win this war. You know, he has staked his power, his regime, his prestige, on completing whatever this mission is to invade Ukraine, to occupy it, to control the government. He hasn`t succeeded yet.
And if he`s now being told, or is being made aware that his farming is not as effective as it can be, or was intended to be, if he thinks that, you know, he`s being isolated on the international stage, and he knows that the Russian economy in the long term will be crippled, and the potential is he will be weaker in the long term, tdanger then is that he will lash out. He will use cruder means. He will use the Grozny and the Aleppo playbook of continuing to decimate and bombard and deceive cities in Ukraine. And that`s the real danger here that he regroups takes a step back and then lashes back out from a position of weakness to regain strength.
RUHLE: Then let me ask you about that crippled Russian economy because we and our European allies have been passing more and more what we think are crippling economic sanctions. But when you look at the Russian ruble, it`s bouncing back. What does that tell you, Juan?
ZARATE: Well, I think it`s dangerous to look at the ruble day-to-day and use that as a measuring stick for the effectiveness of sanctions for a couple of reasons. One, the Russian Central Bank is propping up the ruble, they`re buying rubles, they have capital controls on so you can`t exchange dollars and euros the way that you would normally. They`ve raised interest rates to 20 percent. That`s not sustainable long term.
And so the ruble is weaker there`s no question and the Russian economy is going to be shrinking.
The reality though, is the sanctions regime is not complete. There`s a gaping hole in it. And that`s Russian oil and gas. Putin has known for a very long time that he can use the oil and gas sector as a sword and a shield for sanctions. And that`s exactly what`s happening here. Over 40 percent of Russian revenue comes from oil and gas, oil and gas is still being sold to Europe, to China, to India. That`s not part of the sanctions regime, despite the fact that the U.S. has banned imports of Russian oil, Canada has done the same, the UK will do the same by the end of the year.
But that is really the bottom line in terms of the Russian economy. They have revenue from oil and gas. And despite the fact that the sanctions are crippling and you`re going to see the tail of -- tail effects of that the coming weeks and months. He has a backstop, and that`s called oil and gas.
RUHLE: Jeremy, let`s go back to Putin`s mission, because earlier today, President Zelenskyy said that his military is now preparing for much worse attacks from Russia, in the eastern part of the country. I want to pull the map back up. When you look at it and look at where Russia might be going next. Does this tell you that the game plan now is to divide and conquer and take the eastern and southern region parts of the country?
BASH: That may in fact be part of the strategy, Stephanie. I think it`s a little too soon to tell. I certainly agree with the Pentagon assessment that the Russian forces don`t appear to be withdrawing if anything, they`re just retrenching, they`re going to retro fit, they`re going to replenish their supply lines. They`re going to probably swap out some of their soldiers who have taken a major beating on the battlefield.
And undoubtedly part of Putin`s strategy is going to be to fortify his forces in the east where he`s strongest, where he feels like he`s got the most support for the indigenous population where I think his bet that the international community might abide a Russian presence.
However, you know, I think at the end of this, given the fact that Putin has used his presence in the east and his presence on the border to stage a massive assault all the way to Kyiv, I don`t think the international community is going to go for it. I don`t think the Ukrainians are going to go for it. And I think it`s going to be very hard for Putin argue at the end of the day, that he should be able to retain or keep part of the eastern part of the country.
I wouldn`t trust Vladimir Putin if I were the president of Ukraine. And I don`t think the President if you can`t refrain is going to put that faith in Vladimir Putin.
RUHLE: Juan, I want to stay on oil and gas with you this time at home. We`re reporting that the White House is now weighing a plan to release about a million barrels of oil a day from our own reserves for about the next six months, that would total about 180 million barrels. This is another move we are seeing by President Biden to address rising prices. How much could this help and how sustainable is it?
ZARATE: Well, I think he can help we obviously are an oil and gas giant ourselves.
[23:15:03]
I think that`s one of the great sort of revolutions of the last decade in the United States. And so we can replenish that reserve. And the President doing this certainly is a release valve for the oil markets. It`s not going to be sufficient to displace, let`s say, Russian oil and gas is sanctioned completely. But it does help at least for the short term in terms of prices.
Stephanie, I think it`s important to note here and Jeremy mentioned this in the context of what is coming out of the White House, the declassifications, whether or not we`re actually fighting on the battlefield in Ukraine, we are a part of this conflict, the information warfare conflict, the cyber defense and security issues that we`ve talked about. And now oil and gas and the prices and the inflation that come along with it.
Putin has banked on the fact that we are dependent. We the West are dependent on Russian oil and gas being a part of the oil markets. What you see the President doing is trying to not only deal with this from a domestic political perspective, but from a market perspective, how do we maintain prices so that we`re not overwhelmed by the disruptions that Russia is is you know, pressing on the world as a result of their invasion of Ukraine?
RUHLE: It is a really tricky balance. Thank you both for starting us off tonight. Juan Zarate and Jeremy bash. Coming up, new reporting on why the Justice Department is expanding its investigation into January 6. Claire McCaskill and Daniel Goldman on what it could mean for those close to the former president.
And later, award winning filmmaker Ken Burns is here to talk about the founding of our democracy and where it stands tonight. THE 11TH HOUR just getting underway on this Wednesday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:20:58]
RUHLE: There are significant developments tonight in the January 6 investigations. The Washington Post was the first report the Justice Department is expanding its own investigation writing in the past two months a federal grand jury in Washington has issued subpoena requests to some officials in former President Donald Trump`s orbit who assisted in planning funding and executing the January 6 rally.
And the New York Times reporting one subpoena saw information about people classified as VIP attendees at Trump`s January 6 rally and information about members of the executive and legislative branches who might have had a role in planning that very rally or trying to delay certification of the 2020 election. That is a lot.
So let`s dig in and bring in former Missouri senator and MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill and Daniel Goldman, former Assistant United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York. He also served as general counsel for the House Intelligence Committee during the first Trump impeachment.
Daniel, there`s been a ton of complaining that the Department of Justice has not been doing enough as it relates to January six. Does today`s reporting tell you they have been doing a lot? Maybe we just didn`t know about it?
DANIEL GOLDMAN, FMR. ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, it`s certainly an indication that they are beginning to move on the huge elephant in the room, which was Donald Trump and his associates efforts to try to overturn the election that culminated on January 6, with the effort to obstruct the congressional accounting of the electoral boats.
But there was a month long lead up to it. And what today`s news and why it`s such a big deal indicates is that really for the first time over the past couple of months, according to the reporting, the Department of Justice is widening the aperture of their investigations. They have over 770 cases arising out of the January 6 riots and insurrection. But those really just focused on the events of that day.
Now, these subpoenas seem to indicate that they`re broadening out not just to who invaded the Capitol and who, you know, organize the violence, but who was funding the January 6th rally, who was coordinating it, who was organizing it, and they`re now subpoenaing individuals who were much more involved with the effort to overturn the election. And I think it`s a clear indication that they are beginning to look at the broader coup attempt.
RUHLE: Claire, you`re a former prosecutor and a former senator, how do you read tonight`s new reporting?
FMR. SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Listen, Daniel, and I`ve had these discussions before. I`m very cynical about federal law enforcement and how slowly they go. They don`t have to answer 911 calls. So they don`t have to go fast. So they are so methodical and so slow, and this is an example of where it really hurts. Because I mean, hallelujah, at least we know there`s a grand jury.
What`s really disgusting about where we are right now, Stephanie, is hundreds of people, rabid followers of Donald Trump, that were brought to Washington promised it was going to be wild, told to come and stop the steal. They have lawyers. They`re going to jail. They`re in courtrooms for the first time in their life.
And then the people at the Willard Hotel, the people who made sure there was a seven hour gap in the phone log. Those people have had no accountability, and Americans are angry about it. And you can count me among them.
RUHLE: Then to that very point, Daniel, you know, all the stuff we learned today sounds really big. But are we any closer to actual charges?
[23:25:00]
GOLDMAN: Well, it`s going to take a long time. I mean, Claire is right. This is a really, really complex, wide ranging investigation that is not, you know, a 911 call where you have an individual crime and you pursue that crime. It is you have to follow the money, you have to speak to witnesses, you have to gather texts and emails and other communications. And you`ve got to put together a really, really large puzzle with many, many puzzle pieces.
So what I was have been, and Claire, as pointed out, we`ve talked about this a number of times over the past several months, there were no indications that the Department of Justice was even beginning to look at the broader effort to subvert our democracy and overturn the election.
And finally, finally, today, through the witnesses, not through the Department of Justice, the Department of Justice clearly did not release this information as they are supposed to do. But we are now learning that they are beginning the process of looking beyond January 6, it`s not going to happen tomorrow. It`s not going to happen next month, it`s going to take quite some time, people are going to have to be patient to put these cases together, takes a lot of time and work.
I just hope they begin to really move aggressively now that it`s out in the open in particular, and people know that they`re being investigated.
RUHLE: Claire, I got two quick ones for you. I want to ask you about Clarence Thomas, his wife the pressure Democrats are putting on him to recuse himself. I want to get real because you know, Clarence Thomas, and you know, Republicans, you know, how they operate. Is Clarence Thomas, feeling an ounce of pressure? He doesn`t legally have to go anywhere.
MCCASKILL: No, he`s not feeling any pressure. Now, John Roberts is having some sleepless nights. Their poll numbers are dipping. Americans faith in the court is slipping. And, you know, keep in mind there is a law on the books, Stephanie. It says very clearly and let me read the exact language. If impartiality can be reasonably questioned a justice is supposed to recuse himself.
Well, I would, you know, put any 12 people in a jury box and see if they think his impartiality can be reasonably questioned under the facts right now. But we have to change the rules so that somebody judges whether or not someone is properly or improperly hearing the case, based on a conflict of interest.
RUHLE: Well, Claire, there`s a huge gap between supposed to do and what you have to do. I have to ask before we go about Madison Cawthorn after Kevin McCarthy, House Minority Leader gave him a talking to about the claims Cawthorn made about his colleagues doing cocaine, having orgies. Minority Leader McCarthy reportedly said Well, it sounds like Cawthorn exaggerated that put all of that aside.
Why was this meanies red line? Why was this so outrageous? He didn`t drop the hammer when members of Congress were speaking at White Nationalist conferences or tweeting videos threatening violence to their colleagues. Why were sex parties and cocaine? Why was this his big deal?
MCCASKILL: Because Cawthorn was saying it about his colleagues. And you know, it`s so funny to me. I mean, I spent 12 years there, right. And I used to have a line in my speeches, Stephanie, that always got a big laugh, and the line went as follows. People asked me while I wanted to go to the United States Senate, the only reason I willing to go is because the only place in America I could be considered a hot young chick.
I mean, these are a lot of old dudes. There are no more orgies. I can assure you there are no orgies in Washington with members of Congress.
RUHLE: Claire, I`m just really happy that your funny line wasn`t that the only reason you came to Congress was for orgies and cocaine. I`m just breathing a sigh of relief that that wasn`t the line. It is official, Claire McCaskill, there are no orgies in Congress. We`re going to leave it there. Claire. Daniel, thank you both so much.
When we come back, we are heading back to Ukraine. We`ll be speaking with one of our Ukrainian friends who is tracking the utter devastation left behind in civilian neighborhoods when the 11th Hour continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:34:02]
RUHLE: To the surprise of very few in the West, Russia is still hammering cities in Ukraine despite its talk of de-escalation. The UN says this war has now forced more than 4 million civilians from their homes.
We welcome back Asami Terajima, who`s covering the conflict for the Kyiv Independent. She joins us from Western Ukraine.
There have been some really disturbing reports that some Russian soldiers are now raping Ukrainian women, in some cases with their children just feet away. What can you tell us?
ASAMI TERAJIMA, KYIV INDEPENDENT: It`s really heartbreaking. There are many accounts from rape and sexual violence. There have been from the beginning of the war. But now every single day it`s increasing. We hear more stories of, you know, we hear more of these stories from the victims themselves. Or we also hear from for example today -- yesterday we heard from Ukraine`s defense ministry when he told a story about A woman who, you know, who was raped by -- so whose husband was killed earlier and she was raped in front of her six-year-old son.
[23:35:09]
And this has been so -- so the Russian soldiers were raping her for several days taking turns. And then after that she died a couple of days later, because of her wads. So it`s very heartbreaking. And, you know, it`s already difficult seeing our cities, you know, destroyed and people killed and rushed. Russian soldiers are making no -- taking no hesitation, to, you know, rape women as well.
RUHLE: You wrote about the horrific siege of Mariupol. Just a few weeks ago, that city is basically cut off, we`re getting very little information. What can you tell us about the state of things there?
TERAJIMA: Yes, there are still about 150,000 people who are still stuck there. And it`s very difficult for people from -- in Mariupol to get out because Russia continues to shell the city. And people are still cut off from the water, food, the electricity and gas and medical equipment as well and including medicine, because humanitarian convoys can`t get there. And many people are, you know, shouting in the shelter because it`s really dangerous to get out.
If you go out even to for example, get water you`re risking your life. And it`s very difficult because, you know, you`re stuck. You have -- many of them are hiding in the basement. And it`s it -- this has been going on since the beginning of March. But the city has been encircled by Russians since March 2.
So it`s -- the civilians are living a very difficult life. And we know that people are starving to death, and we hope that we can evacuate them as soon as possible. And today, there supposed to be a one day ceasefire, which was announced by Russian Defense Ministry earlier, but we don`t know if it`s going to work out because Russia has continuously attacked open fire on civilians who were trying to evacuate the city.
RUHLE: There was some cautious optimism around the peace talks that took place in Turkey this week. Are people there feeling hopeful at all?
TERAJIMA: We see -- Ukrainian officials have said that it`s moving in a positive direction. But at the same time they`re very skeptical about this because the concessions that Ukraine is making great, it`s not clear yet and how it`s going to work out and some -- many of us in Ukraine have felt you know, uncomfortable but concessions that we`ve been told that you know, Ukraine could make and also there`s we can never trust the Russians because if you remember before February 24.
RUHLE: Asami thank you for all the reporting --
TERAJIMA: Yes. Thank you so much.
RUHLE: Thanks for everything you`re doing. And please stay safe where you are. Coming up, Benjamin Franklin once warned us that the U.S. democracy is in our hands conversions is here on where it stands tonight when the 11th Hour continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:42:13]
RUHLE: While democracies face threats around the world, and here at home, there`s new focus on the people behind the founding of America`s democracy. Benjamin Franklin is the subject of the latest Ken Burns documentary, the two part series explores how this powerful revolutionary two centuries ago is a key to understanding our country and the turmoil we`re seeing today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Franklin was approached by one of the city`s most prominent citizens, Elizabeth Willing Powel, whose own rights had not been considered. She asked him Well, Doctor, what have we got? A republic? Or a monarchy? A republic he answered. If you can keep it.
Republic, if you can keep it, which turns out to be maybe the most prophetic sentence of all. Everyone who cares about this country has to ask that question every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: We are so pleased to welcome award winning filmmaker Ken Burns. His two part documentary "Benjamin Franklin" premieres Monday and Tuesday on PBS.
Ken, I like everyone watching, love your work. You have done projects on everything from baseball, to the Civil War. Why Ben Franklin?
KEN BURNS, AWARD WINNING FILMMAKER: I think he`s the most interesting of our founding fathers. He`s the one that offers us a portal to the moment of our founding, warts and all, it permits us to see all of the challenges that are part of that founding, as well as all of the mythological. These are really extraordinary human beings. But all of them deeply flawed. No one more so than Benjamin Franklin.
But he`s also among the founding fathers, the one who`s not static. George Washington doesn`t change. Thomas Jefferson doesn`t change. But Franklin goes from a little kid in impurity in Boston, to a rich man to the world`s greatest scientists, to the world`s greatest diplomat to an editor of the declaration, and a forger of the compromises some of them tragic of the Constitution. The guy who gets to propose the Constitution, and then becomes the head of an abolitionist society and offers the first resolution to Congress, abolishing slavery, which is of course, ignored by the Senate and dismissed by the House, but nonetheless, sets in motion and America that is going to finally have to deal with the unfinished business of our founding.
And so he`s mega interesting. He`s also funny, right? He`s our best writer of the 18th century. He`s the Mark Twain a century before Mark Twain. He`s very, very funny and he has a relationship to us and when you have somebody as I was fortunate enough to have, we were fortunate enough to have Mandy Patinkin reading The Voice.
[23:45:04]
RUHLE: The greatest.
BURNS: The greatest. It comes alive and you feel this presence. And so, you know, Faulkner is famous for saying history is not was but is and history doesn`t repeat itself. But if you delve in honorably to the past, everything that you excavate has been true of every film I`ve worked on, speaks directly to the present moment.
Or Mohammed Ali film of last fall, spoke to the issues of Black Lives Matter. And all of the things that are going on in this the new 21st century has he was capturing the imaginations before that Hemingway, almost every film we`ve done has that moment and Franklin speaks to the urgency that we find ourselves in right now.
RUHLE: I want to know what he would say today, because his signatures, right, we`re unity and compromise.
BURNS: Yes, this is it.
RUHLE: This founded the postal system, right? That`s what linked our countries together.
BURNS: He is the first person who understands what it means to be an American because as a postmaster, he`s traveling. And so he doesn`t just see this, if you want to mail a letter, right, from Charleston, South Carolina to Boston, it goes through London.
RUHLE: That`s crazy.
BURNS: But not anymore. Right. And so he`s beginning to see any proposals decades before the revolution, this Albany plan of action, which ironically, he borrowed from the Haudenosaunee, the Iroquois Confederation, the idea that we can band together and solve our problems collectively without warfare.
So he suggests this and he draws a picture of a snake all cut up representing the stakes and his slogan joiner die. Everybody says too radical. But 20 years later, when the revolution happens, what is the thing that they pick up and use the segment and stake and join or die, and it is an amazing thing. He understood that there was going to be an American as much as he was trying to keep Britain in the colonies together. He was a reluctant revolutionary, but he got it. And so he stitched us together.
RUHLE: Then what would he think of today`s democracy? I`m guessing he loves social media. He loved the internet.
BURNS: He was social media. Come on. I mean, he`s, look, he`s a printer. He`s a publisher. He`s a newspaper man. He`s got books. He`s the postmaster. He`s printing the money. I mean, he`s Google. He`s Apple. He`s Facebook. He`s Twitter all at once. And he`s right. And what are the what`s in the almanac? These little tweets, you know, early to bed early to rise, you know, a day three can keep us secret, if two of them are dead.
RUHLE: Do we hold our four -- we do hold our forefathers on this pedestal is what they`ve created together. But are we forgetting that they were for the most part, similar aged white male landowners, it is a lot easier for that small group to agree on a set of ideas than the a giant, massive, diverse group of stakeholders we have today, a group of white guys that are all 35 --
BURNS: They had a hard time doing that. I mean, Franklin was way older. His son was older than Jefferson and Adams and Madison. So, he`s that much wiser. He`s the most famous American on earth because of his scientific discoveries, mainly with regard to electricity. And he`s the greatest diplomat because he`s gotten the French to come in on our side and we only win because he`s there, but he has a hard time corralling all of these landowners because the southerners want something in the northerners wants something else. And there`s beginning to be little whispers, including from Franklin about abolition.
So it`s a dicey thing. But he designed, he helped to design a machine, which is still going. He started a club as a young tradesman called the junto club. It`s Latin for sort of making a joint and he`d say, you know, you shave a little bit off here. Walter Isaacson says in her film, you shave a little off here, and you make a joint that will last for centuries. Well, this joint has lasted for centuries, but it is frayed because of the diversity of all of these things.
And the question is, can this government comprehend the whole and right now he come and say, Ah, you`re having the problems that we thought we`d have? He says when he proposes the ratification of the Constitution.
You know, our enemies expect us to be cutting our own throats like we`re from the Tower of Babel, but we`re not. We all brought our own wisdom, but we all borrowed on prejudices. And we`ve given up a little bit, and one of the things they compromised on was the uncompromisable.
RUHLE: It is a lot harder to compromise today, given how diverse we are, but we were divided back then. He was estranged from his own son over politics. So shouldn`t be that shocked that we`re divided today.
BURNS: No, I mean, I think we should be concerned and very worried. But all of these things, you know, the Bible says it Ecclesiastes, that`s the Old Testament. It says, what has been will be again, what has been done will be done again. There`s nothing new under the sun. It`s not that history repeats itself is that human life, all the antecedents of everything that were experienced today have happened at some point.
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And let`s remember our Civil War, which we got through and over killed 750,000 of us. And that was us at our own throats. So, you know, we`re not there yet.
RUHLE: OK. Don`t tell me that`s where we are.
BURNS: No. No, we`re not there yet. And so there`s -- there can be caused. The problem is, is that the things that we have seen bubble up to the surface, that bubble up continually in American history, like white supremacy and the ugliness of the Klan and of lynching and thank God for yesterday`s law. They`ve been trying to do this for decades and decades and decades and couldn`t get it done.
Why couldn`t we get it done? In any case, we didn`t have it from the highest occupant highest office in the land as we had for four years. Somebody spouting some of these things, gave a larger and wider voice to these, you know, the ills of Pandora`s box.
RUHLE: Then as a person who has deeply studied almost all parts of American history and culture. What do you think about where we are and where we`re headed?
BURNS: Well, you know, I`ve been quite worried and quite disturbed about it. And I see what`s going on now the combination of the racial reckoning from George Floyd`s brutal murder, and from the pandemic and from the divisions of the politics is something that was instrumental.
But then something like Ukraine happens, a horrible, horrible event for the Ukrainians that vicious attack by the Russians, and these wobbly, unstable, fragile Western democracies that are about to go the way of the, you know, whatever anachronistic thing you can think of have suddenly kind of congealed under the leadership of Joe Biden, who everyone is absolutely sure can`t do anything, and has magnificently sort of an all of a sudden you realize, oh, yes, sometimes it just flips like that. Sometimes it`s a diff -- it takes the unintended consequences from something else over there to change the dynamics of stuff.
RUHLE: I`m constantly on the shirt -- on the search for something optimistic. So the fact that you`re ending this conversation on such a positive note, I have to end it there before it turns. Ken Burns, thank you so much.
BURNS: Thank you so much.
RUHLE: Again, Benjamin Franklin premieres next Monday and Tuesday on PBS. Coming up, a very Jersey welcome for a 12-year-old student who was forced to flee Ukraine when the 11th Hour continues.
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RUHLE: The last thing before we go tonight, a new start in the Garden State. We know by now the war has had an unthinkable impact on children. According to UNICEF, more than 4 million kids have now been forced to leave their homes and families are traveling thousands of miles to just seek safety. That includes a very sweet 12-year-old girl named Elizabeth.
After weeks of hiding from Russian bombs, she escaped the war zone and made it all the way to the US of A. And this week, she was welcomed into a classroom nearly 5,000 miles away had a school down on the Jersey Shore. WNBC`s Brian Thompson brings us her very special story.
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BRIAN THOMPSON, WNBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The welcome this week was heartfelt for 12-year-old Elizabeth Curlbuco (ph), a refugee from our war torn Ukraine arriving just last week Monday her first day of school.
Mother Jenna arranged for her to get out meeting her on the border with Romania.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Till the moment I came in and she started to travel towards me to meet me. They had like bomb threats like attack like five to eight times a day.
THOMPSON: It was a harrowing escape from her city of Alexandria and South Central Ukraine. Starting at the railroad station where a family friend tried to get her on an already packed train.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All friends she started knocking all the doors on the train trying to make someone open the door and he was knocking so hard he got blood on his hands. And finally, one of the conductors had mercy on them and opened the door and she let Elizabeth and another girl to come in and he closed the door and nobody else got on the train.
THOMPSON: The journey took her to relative safety in the Lviv near the Polish border and then finally to Bucharest in Romania, before flying here last week.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was sad. She was scared and she also had a thought in her mind that she might not see her friends anymore.
THOMPSON: So now this sixth grader at the Monmouth Beach Elementary School is trying to fit in. She wasn`t quite ready to play indoor soccer today. So she sat with newfound friends on the bleachers watching.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She made new friends already even though it`s her second day at school. Yes, she`s happy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then that way you`ll see the unpiloted ones --
THOMPSON: And didn`t make it back earliest classroom because Elizabeth understand some English but doesn`t speak it. She`s getting extra help. And plenty of donations to this mom and daughter and one more thing slime. Yes. Weeks ago students here started selling blue and yellow slime raising $3,000. Now, it`s all going to Elizabeth and her mother is a wait up the end of the war.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She likes it here but she misses home.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RUHLE: Well to Ms. Elizabeth, if you can get a little taste for some Taylor ham, egg and cheese, you`re going to feel right at home. As they always say, New Jersey in you perfect together.
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And on that very good note, I wish you at home a very good night. From all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News, thanks for staying up late with us. I`ll see you at the end of tomorrow.