Summary
Nancy Pelosi visits Taiwan, angering China. Five states around the country hold primaries. Kansas votes on reproductive rights. Trevor Reed, a former Marine who spent three years behind bars in Russia, speaks out for the release of Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan.
Transcript
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: This is the seventh and final season of Samantha Bee`s great show "Full Frontal." So, a lot of you reached out to say you enjoyed hearing from her directly. And you still can. It`s a half-an-hour interview available online now.
Now, it is election night, so keep it locked.
THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID starts now.
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on THE REIDOUT:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARI LAKE (R), ARIZONA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Anybody who was involved in that corrupt, shady, shoddy election of 2020, lock them up.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: It is primary night in five states, highlighting lives like that one from Kari Lake and other candidates who are trying to get their hands on the key offices overseeing voting. And make no mistake, democracy itself is on the ballot.
Also on the ballot today, reproductive rights in Kansas. A referendum there would strip women have their right to choose unless enough people vote no.
And we all know Speaker Nancy Pelosi is a badass. Well, she arrived in Taiwan today, even though China is furious about the trip.
Plus, Trevor Reed, the former Marine who spent three years behind bars in Russia and is now speaking out for the release of Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan, joins me right here tonight.
But we begin with a huge amount of primaries in some key battleground states. Voters in five states are casting their ballots, setting up critical showdowns for this November, and the stakes could not be higher. The choices voters make could very well determine whether or not this country remains a democracy.
And that claim is not made hyperbolically. We all saw how our democracy was pushed to the brink in 2020, with the twice-impeached former president continuing to push the big lie that the election he lost was rigged -- of course, it wasn`t -- and how he unleashed a violent mob on the Capitol in a Hail Mary attempt to remain in power after systematically going state by state to pressure lawmakers to bend to his will and change the election outcomes.
Now, fortunately for the country, there were enough elected leaders in most states unwilling to bend the knee to Trump, including a handful of Republicans. But in the next presidential election, we might not be so lucky. That is because a group of MAGA fanatics spouting the big lie and willing to overturn their own state`s election results are making a run for the very positions that kept our country intact.
In fact, many have already won the Republican Party nominations to run for governor and secretary of state in states across this country, with more possibly on the way, including tonight.
Arizona, which has a full slate of Trump-endorsed election deniers in position to see some wins when the polls close, including the leading Republican candidate for governor, Kari Lake, who`s gone all in on the big lie, even calling for the imprisonment of Arizona`s top election official for her handling of the 2020 race and for the jailing of journalists over what she calls -- or what she claims are election lies.
Now Lake is taking a page out of Trump`s playbook, claiming even before Election Day that there`s fraud in the voting, without providing any proof, because of course.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VAUGHN HILLYARD, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: What fraud is there, Kari? What fraud is there? This is serious.
LAKE: Do you want to make this about you or do you want to make this about...
(CROSSTALK)
HILLYARD: No, this is about Arizona voters and their faith in this election.
LAKE: The last person on the planet Earth that I would tell about what we discovered is you and MSDNC.
HILLYARD: So, you know about a crime and yet you`re not reporting it to authorities?
LAKE: And I`m not telling you about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Because what she discovered is nothing, ma`am.
OK, well, there is also state Rep. Mark Finchem vying for Arizona secretary of state. Now, this is a person who wants identified himself as a member of the Oath Keepers and was present outside the Capitol on January 6.
To this day, he is still pushing the state legislature to overturn the state certification of the 2020 presidential election. And Finchem is credited by January 6 rally organizer Ali Alexander as the singular force behind the Stop the Steal movement in Arizona.
This is the person who wants to be put in charge of overseeing the state`s elections. Of course, these are only a few examples of the extreme candidates who already are or will likely be on the ballot in November, and who could actually find themselves in positions of power in 2024.
Joining me now, national political correspondent Steve Kornacki at the Big Board, as always on election nights, and Alex Wagner, host of the upcoming "ALEX WAGNER TONIGHT," which premieres two weeks from this very night, August 16, at 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC.
Thank you both for being here.
But I am going to start with you, Steve. Give us the state of play as we know it now.
STEVE KORNACKI, NBC NEWS NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, Arizona, it`ll be late tonight. It will be about 11:00 Eastern when we start getting numbers there.
Just, by the way, the way things work in Arizona, it`ll probably be within the first 10, 15 minutes of those polls closing we get more than half the vote statewide. You get all one big batch there in Arizona. So we won`t know anything until late.
[19:05:07]
But, when we start to get some numbers, we might know a lot quick. So what are we seeing here in Arizona? Well, you mentioned there`s the Senate race here. This is for the Republican nomination to take on Mark Kelly, the Democrat seeking reelection in Arizona this November.
Blake Masters has led in the polls. Blake Masters is running with Donald Trump`s endorsement. So then, again, that gets to the question of, will the complete Trump slate of Republican primary candidates in Arizona get through? Blake Masters is Trump`s candidate for the United States Senate. As you mentioned, Kari Lake is Trump`s candidate for the Republican nomination for governor.
She too has led in the polling, although there was a final Emerson poll in the last 72 hours that did suggest maybe a closer race here, so perhaps a bit of suspense at the end of this race here. Kari Lake, though, the Trump- backed candidate for governor. Also, you just mentioned Mark Finchem, secretary of state.
The possibility here is, of all the swing states in the country, if these Trump-aligned, Trump-backed candidates win their primaries tonight and Arizona, Arizona will be fielding a slate of Republican candidates that is more in tune with Trump on the 2020 question than any other Republican Party in any other swing state in the country.
And I think that raises an important question for November. And, again, it has to do with Mark Kelly, the incumbent Democrat seeking reelection. Democrats need Kelly to win to hold on the United States Senate. To really have a chance to hold on the United States Senate, this is a crucial race for Democrats to win.
Remember, it was a Biden state in 2020, Arizona, but the margin was three- tenths of one point. And given where Biden stands in the polls right now, given how midterm elections usually play out, they usually favor the opposition party, work against the White House party, Kelly on paper is an extremely vulnerable incumbent.
The question is, though, if Republicans nominate this Trump-aligned slate top to bottom in Arizona, does that give the swing voters who might otherwise turn on an incumbent like Kelly in a year like 2022, does that give them pause? And does that keep them from voting for Republicans? And does that give Kelly a chance in Arizona, a better chance in Arizona?
And does that give Democrats a better chance of hanging onto the United States Senate? So it`ll be really interesting to watch these Republican primaries play out in Arizona tonight to see if that full Trump slate is indeed successful.
REID: Really quickly, Steve, just a quick follow-up, because Donald Trump is -- has been selecting candidates in these Republican primaries who I think most objective observers would say are probably the weaker choice for Republicans in places like Georgia and Pennsylvania, et cetera.
In the state of Arizona, is there a sense of how Trumpy the electorate is? Because, in some of these other swing states, the chances of the Democrat prevailing are actually being increased by Donald Trump`s picks becoming the nominees.
KORNACKI: Yes.
Well, like I said, Arizona, the margin was three-tenths of one point for Joe Biden in 2020. So, yes, it was a blue state in 2020. Yes, Biden was able to carry it. But three-tenths of one point, that`s about 9,500 votes. It was under 10,000 votes.
So it was comparable, I would say, in terms of just how close it was, to Georgia. So you`re not looking at a huge sort of surplus of Republican votes, where it is not a deeply, deeply red state here. So this is a state that went Democratic by a whisker in 2020. Republicans certainly, under a normal -- as I say, normal midterm conditions, sort of a generic Republican candidate, I think, might even be favored in Arizona.
But there is a question by Biden`s victory of, can you push that electorate too far? And I think that we might be set up to have that test in November.
REID: Steve Kornacki, you`re the best. Thank you very much. Really appreciate you.
And Steve will be at the Big Board throughout the evening with results from today`s primaries. We will definitely be keeping up with that.
Alex, I also want to bring you in here, because I think about Arizona. This is a state, up until -- this was a Barry Goldwater state. That`s how Republican that state was. This was John McCain`s state. It had two Republican senators pretty much my whole lifetime. And I`m not that old, but I`m not that young.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: And now it has two Democratic senators, two, not one, but two. This is a state that swung from all the way from the Goldwater Republican all the way to being a blue state right now, in terms of its representation in the United States Senate.
So what do you make of this idea that the Republicans are still taking the knee and essentially nominating people who are so far on the Trump wing that they could actually make it bluer?
ALEX WAGNER, HOST, "ALEX WAGNER TONIGHT": I think that the term is schadenfreude, Joy, which is Democratic delight, right?
(LAUGHTER)
[19:10:00]
WAGNER: But, at the same time, I think we -- it`s important to step back for a second and look at this in the context of America, right?
We`re a two-party system. And if one of those parties is hopelessly broken, populated by people who are for -- I`m not even kidding when I say this -- people who are running for the governorship in Michigan, who were former stars of Vampire web TV series, played characters who were eaten by zombies, and are now front-runners.
Tudor Dixon is the person I`m speaking of in Michigan for the Republican Party. That`s a problem for democracy, right? If you have a two-party system, and one party doesn`t work, that makes it very hard to get the business done.
And when you look at the landscape of some of these people, I mean, the qualifications that they are promoting should be disqualifications. Kari Lake, the woman that you`re talking about in Arizona, this is a woman who for 22 years, is a broadcaster at the local FOX News affiliate. I will say that again, the FOX News affiliate.
She`s seen as kind of a middle-of-the-road broadcaster. Sometimes, she donates to campaigns like Obama. And then in 2018, 2019, 2020, it all turns and she becomes a QAnon conspiracist. Last year, she disavows the fourth estate. She walks away from the newsroom. And she turns what could have been a liability among Republican voters, which is to say her work as a journalist, into an asset by virtue of the condemnation.
It is a testament to the anti-democratic norms of the GOP that you can`t get to the top of the ticket if you`re a journalist unless you disavow the fourth estate. And I won`t get into all the other candidates. But, I mean, we`re talking about people that would never have had careers in politics are now the front-runners for the Republican Party in important and key races in key states.
Now, that could be good news for Democrats, but is it good news for democracy?
REID: I mean, get to that very point -- and, look, I used to work at FOX affiliate. My first job in news business was at a FOX affiliate. The FOX affiliates are not FOX News.
And so, yes, she was a pretty normcore journalist. As a matter of fact, let me play a little bit of it, just to tee up -- you teed it up for me perfectly. She wasn`t in a vampire thing. But here is Kari Lake interviewing President Obama. This is in 2016. That`s not that long ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAKE: Good to be here. Thank you so much for having us.
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Great to have you.
LAKE: I know you want to talk about your Supreme Court nominee.
OBAMA: Yes.
LAKE: And a lot of Arizonans, believe it or not, support the Senate Republicans.
OBAMA: Yes.
LAKE: They say they should hold off on this and it`s a smart thing to do. How do you convince them otherwise?
OBAMA: Well, what I`d say to the people of Arizona is, our democracy only works when people play by the rules.
LAKE: Thank you so much for your time.
OBAMA: Thank you.
LAKE: We appreciate it.
OBAMA: Great to see to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: To what extent, Alex, is some of his theater?
I mean, you have gone out. You have interviewed, like, real Oath Keepers, people are real 3 Percenters...
WAGNER: Yes.
REID: People who are really in the life.
Somebody like Kari Lake appears to be doing a theatrical pose that she thinks will get her into office. How much of this is theater and how much of it is real, do you think, among some of these Republican candidates?
WAGNER: I need, Joy, Kari Lake has said as recently, I think, as last week that she`s already seen some stealing going on in this election.
If that`s not theater, then what is? Tudor Dixon in Michigan, this is someone who`s a media personality on America`s Voice News who was starring in zombie and vampire films, who wants to replace diversity and inclusion counselors with armed guards in schools.
I mean, again, are these serious candidates? And that makes Kris Kobach in Kansas, who wants to be the attorney general, someone who was tasked with finding election fraud in 2020 and came up with goose egg, it makes him look almost qualified, setting aside the fact that a federal judge ordered Kris Kobach to go to remedial law classes because his grasp of the law was so faint.
That guy now wants to be the attorney general of the state of Kansas.
REID: Yes.
WAGNER: I mean, the -- yes, to answer your question, I think a lot of this is theater, but it is theater that is convincing a certain section of the American public.
And it makes one wonder, how, how, how has this poison coursed so effectively through the Grand Old Party?
REID: No, indeed.
I mean, Rusty Bowers, who, until we heard his torment during the January 6 Committee hearings, initially said he would still vote for Donald Trump. He`s now changed his mind and told Jonathan Karl that he wouldn`t.
But right -- even after all that he discussed in the hearings, he said he`d still vote for him. So there is a certain level of belief there that I just want to point out to the audience there is one of these in Maryland who is now the nominee for governor in the state of Maryland. States like Maryland could go in this direction. The guy`s name is Cox.
You now have in Arizona -- I just want to get your comment on this, Alex. Arizona officials were warned -- this is from "The New York Times." Kelli Ward, who`s the chairwoman of the Arizona Republican Party, the one who kicked Rusty Bowers out and said he`s persona non grata in the party now, and Katie -- Kelly Townsend, a state senator, were both said to have expressed concerns to Trump`s lawyers in December 2020 about participating in a plan to sign on to this fake electors scheme.
They feared that the actions could be seen as treason. They knew it was illegal. So you have people who in their rational minds understand that the things that they`re doing are probably going to get them in legal trouble, but they`re still doing them.
[19:15:05]
I cannot understand that motivation.
WAGNER: Well, it`s like high school when someone`s like, let`s jump off the roof of the house into the swimming pool, and someone`s like, couldn`t we break our necks doing that, and then does it anyway, right?
I mean, you kind of know that attitude, because it`s that of juveniles and people who don`t think seriously about the consequences, I mean, truly don`t think seriously or are willing to risk at all.
And it sort of makes you wonder, what are the motivations here? I mean, the notion of civil service is a fallacy within the Republican Party. It seems like nothing more than a naked grasp for power.
REID: Yes.
WAGNER: And their comfort with that should be disturbing to everybody.
REID: Absolutely.
This is so much fun, I could do this for an hour. But, unfortunately, I cannot. I have to let you go. I have to do a commercial break.
But, Alex Wagner, I`m so excited about your show. And two weeks from this very night, August 16, we`re going to be watching you, the premiere of "ALEX WAGNER TONIGHT" at 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC.
Girlfriend, I`m so excited to have you back.
WAGNER: Thank you.
REID: Welcome back.
WAGNER: Thank you.
REID: Yes.
WAGNER: I`m so excited to be back.
REID: Thank you very much. Cheers. Have a great evening. OK.
And while you are waiting for tonight`s results, do not miss my piece on MSNBC.com on why the 2022 midterms might be the most important elections of our lifetime. That is not hyperbole.
Up next on THE REIDOUT: the first test of abortion rights at the polls since the end of Roe.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:58]
REID: There was a doctor by the name of George Tiller in Wichita, Kansas.
He provided abortions there for more than three decades, one of the few doctors in the nation who performed abortions late in pregnancy for women with serious health conditions and those carrying fetuses with severe or lethal anomalies.
Those who opposed abortions, including violent extremists, fixated on this doctor, protesting outside his house, his church and his clinic. In 1986, that clinic was bombed. Anti-abortion violence is a current domestic terrorism threat that began in the early 1970s.
We`re talking vandalism, arson, bombing, along with threats of harassment and intimidation, targeting doctors like Dr. Tiller. In 1993, an abortion opponent shot him in both arms. Tiller survived. But, in 2009, Tiller was shot dead during worship services at his church in Wichita, where he was serving as an usher.
Then years after that horrific assassination, the Kansas Supreme Court ruled that the state Constitution protects the right to an abortion. And in this very state, fraught with a history of anti-abortion extremism and terrorism, voters today are deciding whether to remove that protection, providing the first electoral test in America since the fall of Roe.
The results of that referendum are expected in just a few hours.
And joining me now is NBC News correspondent Dasha Burns in Overland Park, Kansas, and Mini Timmaraju, president of NARAL Pro-choice America.
Thank you both for being here.
And, Dasha, I do want to start with you because I know that you have been talking with canvassers. And I just want to play a little bit of sound of that before I hit you with a question.
Go ahead. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This particular vote is bothersome to me because of the way that the church has been used to sway people and mislead people. And I don`t want the church to be used in that manner.
I think all of my parishioners deserve to make the choices that are best for them, which means I`m ultimately a pro-choice person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: And Laura Phillips (ph) is a reverend. She`s a pastor.
DASHA BURNS, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
REID: And, to her point, in terms of "The Kansas City Star" reports that Kansas abortion ballot question -- the Kansas abortion ballot question, $10 million, the fund-raising has been about $10 million as this vote nears, and the Susan B. Anthony Pro-Life America organization spent $1.3 million, a lot of that money coming from the churches.
What are you seeing on the ground? What are you hearing from women as you talk with them?
BURNS: Well, Joy, we have been talking to canvassers. We have been talking to voters. We have been talking to providers.
And you played some of that video of Dr. Tiller. Well, we have actually visited that clinic where he used to work. And I will tell you, the fear, the anxiety is very much real for abortion providers in the state about what comes next and about those types of threats.
A lot of providers don`t want to work in Kansas because of the history that you just mentioned there. And, right now, Kansas really is the epicenter of the battle on abortion rights in the nation. And in just a couple of hours here, opponents of the Value Them Both amendment are going to be gathering here in this room to watch and to wait to learn the fate of abortion rights in this state.
And, Joy, the stakes could not be higher, because since the fall of Roe, many of the surrounding states have enacted all-out bans or significantly restricted abortion. So, Kansas has had women coming from Missouri, from Texas, from Arkansas, Oklahoma seeking care here.
The phones have been ringing nonstop at clinics, mostly from women outside of the state seeking this procedure here. So people are very much aware of that. And this Value Them Both amendment, just again, to be clear about what this does, because there has been some confusion about the wording and about what a yes vote means, what a no vote means.
This amendment would strip the protection for abortion rights from the Kansas state Constitution. It would then put the power to make those decisions into the hands of the Republican supermajority in the state legislature here, which would then open the door to possible restrictions and potentially, as many abortion rights advocates fear, a ban on abortion.
[19:25:07]
And I`m telling you, this has been the conversation in the state. It`s impossible to avoid signs, rallies, even concerts held here. People are aware that the nation is watching, because what happens here doing, Joy, not just how Kansans vote, but how many vote, right, is going to be a major bellwether for the midterms in November.
And I will tell you, just anecdotally, today, we were at a polling location earlier in Gardner, Kansas, where they told me last time, in 2018, in the primary, they had about 300 voters show up. They have already doubled that as of a couple of hours ago. So the engagement is real.
What happens tonight, though, still -- still to be seen, Joy.
REID: And I should note -- thank you for that information.
We should note that the Catholic Church -- the Susan B. Anthony Pro-life American spent $1.3 million. The Catholic Church has spent $2.5 million. So, there is a lot, as that previous reverend was saying that Dasha interviewed, a lot of church funding going into this.
And to that point about the confusion, Mini Timmaraju, there`s been a misinformation campaign that`s been taking place in the state. Misleading Kansas abortion texts have been linked to a Republican-aligned firm. The messages were sent using numbers least from Alliance Forge, a Nevada-based firm, that created and crafted by a PAC led by former Congressman Tim Huelskamp of Kansas.
The text message says: "Women in Kansas are losing their choice on reproductive rights. Voting yes on the amendment will give women a choice. Vote yes to protect women`s health."
The truth is, it`s vote no. Voting no is what will -- so It`s a confusing wording, which is done a lot of times to trick people into voting for the opposite of what they want.
What do you make of the fact that this Republican firm led by a former Republican congressman from Kansas is literally lying to people sending out text messages to try to trick them into voting to throw their rights away?
MINI TIMMARAJU, PRESIDENT, NARAL PRO-CHOICE AMERICA: I think they`re terrified. I think we have to -- the last-minute surge of Catholic Church money into the state, they`re looking at the same numbers that we`re looking at. This is unprecedented enthusiasm for a Republican primary, really, frankly, just a Republican primary ballot in a midterm year.
They put this initiative on this ballot, expecting very little interest, very little turnout in Kansas. And now we`re seeing a surge in enthusiasm, as Dasha was talking about, on the ground. You can`t escape it.
And we`re seeing Republican women coming out and voting no, much like the woman you just interviewed, the minister. We have got volunteers on the ground right now knocking doors, and they`re telling us stories about Republican households they are going to who are furious that this is on the ballot, furious that it`s being sort of trying to sneak it under -- through this ballot initiative in an August primary ballot.
So I think what you`re seeing is indication of how incredibly close this is in a situation where it, frankly, shouldn`t have been close, right? Kansas is, by all means, like by all analysis, a moderate state. But I think we`re going to see a big repudiation tonight.
I also want to mention, we`re seeing volunteers from other states. You mentioned patients coming from other states. We`re seeing volunteers from places like Arkansas coming into Kansas to tell their story at the doors about how bad abortion bans are in their states.
REID: And can I just show this map? Because here`s the issue.
And Dasha did mention this, but I want to -- I have a question for you, Mr. Timmaraju. This is the state of play, the free states vs. essentially states where women are state property.
All those red states that you`re seeing have the most restrictive abortions, meaning, if you live in one of those states, this is how far you have to go to get to a free state, that where there are either less restrictions, like Florida or Nebraska, or where you are -- where it`s a fully free state, places like Colorado, or -- look how far you have to go.
So that`s one of the other issues, right, is that if this then becomes another essentially unfree state, it becomes a one state property state, women will then have to jump states and have to go further and further away, right?
TIMMARAJU: Exactly.
This map is critical to understanding why Kansas is so important to access of abortion for people throughout the Midwest and the South. I`m from Texas, where, obviously, access has been decimated. And you saw Oklahoma quickly follow. Kansas is really not just a political battleground right now because of this ballot initiative, but a fight for access.
And that`s why we`re seeing volunteers and folks coming from neighboring states like Texas, like Oklahoma, like Arkansas, into Kansas to talk to voters this weekend.
REID: Let me play Attorney General Merrick Garland. Today, he did announce that the Department of Justice is going to file a lawsuit challenging Idaho`s abortion law, arguing it violates federal law, which requires medical providers to offer emergency care that can include abortions. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: It does not matter what state a hospital subject to EMTALA operates in.
[19:30:00]
If a patient can comes into the emergency room with a medical emergency jeopardizing the patient`s life or health, the hospital must provide the treatment necessary to stabilize that patient. This includes abortion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Dasha, I`m wondering, as you speak with women, not just canvassers, but actually voters, are people expressing concerns that a ban on abortion in the state of Kansas could mean that people with ectopic pregnancies, with other health concerns could lose their lives?
Or are you hearing concerns about a national ban? Because that has been talked about fairly openly by the forced birth movement.
BURNS: Yes, Joy, I mean, I`m hearing all of those concerns across the board.
And, by the way, it`s true, not just from Democrats, but from Republican women, from people of all religious backgrounds. This is not as red or white or -- red or blue or black or white an issue as it`s often painted, especially in Washington.
There is a lot of concern is, even from fairly conservative women, that ban could encompass no exceptions for rape or incest or for the life of the mother. Those ectopic pregnancies, a lot of people have stories like that. And so I`m hearing that concern across the board.
And what happens is, people have been watching the surrounding states go dark and worry that more and more of the country will head in that direction, Joy.
REID: Yes, indeed.
Whether -- whatever your politics are, red, blue, whatever, most women want to actually have ownership of their own bodies. Most women do not want to have Republican men sneak in bills under the radar to take ownership of your physical body. Most women do want to be free.
Dasha Burns and NARAL Pro-Choice America president Mini Timmaraju, thank you both.
Still ahead: Speaker Nancy Pelosi defies Chinese threats to lead a congressional delegation to Taiwan. Some are calling it courageous. Others say it is reckless.
We will get into that and more next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:36:57]
REID: Fresh off the big announcement that a United States drone strike killed al Qaeda`s leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, over the weekend, there was another major development on the foreign policy front today, as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi arrived in Taiwan, defying warnings from China, which claims the self-governed island is its territory.
Taiwan`s tallest building was lit up to welcome the speaker, but China immediately condemned the visit. Moments after she landed, Chinese state- run media reported that China`s military would conduct military training exercises and drills in areas surrounding Taiwan later this week.
And the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs called the speaker`s visit a serious violation of the One China principle, threatening -- quote -- "Those who play with fire will perish by it."
The speaker, a longtime critic of China, is the highest-ranking American official to visit Taiwan in 25 years.
Shortly after touching down, "The Washington Post" published an op-ed by Speaker Pelosi explaining her decision to visit the island. She wrote: "We cannot stand by as the Chinese Communist Party proceeds to threaten Taiwan and democracy itself."
Joining me now is David Rothkopf, columnist for The Daily Beast and "USA Today" and host of the "Deep State Radio" podcast.
Mr. Rothkopf, it`s always great to see you.
So I want to show you a video. This is the video of Speaker Pelosi`s 1991 trip to Tiananmen Square, which was tweeted out by her in 2019. And it shows her and two other lawmakers unfurling a banner honoring dissidents.
So she`s a longtime critic of the policies of the Chinese government. But you have been critical of this trip. Explain why, because it does feel like it is a representation of standing up for democracy.
DAVID ROTHKOPF, CEO, THE ROTHKOPF GROUP: Well, I think it is a representation of that.
And I think the speaker has a long track record of standing up for human rights in China of 30 years, as you note. And she deserves a lot of credit for that. And, of course, I don`t think the United States should be intimidated by the threats or the over-the-top rhetoric of the Chinese.
The question is, why do this trip right now? There are a number of issues that are extremely sensitive involving the Chinese that the administration is trying to handle. For example, the administration is trying to work with the Chinese behind the scenes to keep them from providing weapons to the Russians in Ukraine.
The administration is putting pressure on China in a number of areas with regard to human rights. The administration has, in fact, really doubled down on security in the region, having the first summit of the quad, which involves Japan and India and Australia, creating AUKUS, an agreement between the Australians, the U.K. and the U.S., creating an economic agreement in the region.
And the administration suggested that Speaker Pelosi not go right now. So I don`t think it`s a question of, is she doing the wrong thing or sending the wrong message? She`s sending a good message. The question is whether she achieves anything and the United States benefits from her doing the trip right now.
And I think there`s a lot of risk to it.
REID: Well, let me just note that the NSC spokesman John Kirby said that: "President Biden respects the speaker`s decision to travel to Taiwan."
I`m going to leave it there. I`m going to just throw that in there, so that we know that.
You did mention Ukraine. So, I do want to talk just a little bit about this, because China v. Taiwan definitely gives me some Russia v. Ukraine vibes, in the sense that you have a big powerful nuclear power that covets a country or a land that wants to be independent of it and, in the case of Ukraine, is independent of it. It`s its own country.
[19:40:16]
In the case of Taiwan, is there a real threat that China would do what Russia is doing to Ukraine to Taiwan?
ROTHKOPF: I think there`s a threat that China would do it, not right away, not in the next couple of years perhaps.
But I think the threat has grown that, at some point in the next three, four or five years, the Chinese might move in and try to reclaim control over Taiwan.
Having said that, I think that the big question is how the U.S. and how the U.S.` allies would respond to that. And I think their response might well look like Ukraine. I think your analogy is a good one, because I think the United States is committed, as since the beginning of the One China policy, to the idea of defending Taiwan, providing weapons to Taiwan, and helping to ensure that they can defend themselves, without actually getting us into a superpower confrontation with the Chinese.
REID: Right.
ROTHKOPF: The Chinese, by the way, are worried about this in another way.
They`re worrying we`re going to start providing new kinds of weapons to the Taiwanese that will make them more secure. And I think that`s one of the big issues we`re going to have to deal with in the months ahead.
REID: Yes.
And speaking of new weapons, so the -- I want to switch over and talk about Afghanistan, since I have got you here. We`re just going to use -- take my full advantage of having you here.
There`s been a lot of sort of Sturm und Drang on the Republican side, particularly from the war caucus, people who`ve never seen a war they didn`t like, people like Lindsey Graham, tweeting and mad that we left Afghanistan, that we took troops out of Afghanistan. And I know that you and I in the past on the show have agreed that it was a good idea after 20 years. It was about time.
You have had some people on the other side, like Adam Kinzinger, who`s also served in the military, as well as these two men did, who said, no, it`s a good thing that we were able to take out Zawahiri without having a bunch of troops on the ground.
Where do you fall along that line? Because there is -- the argument, to me, that Zawahiri`s death somehow proves that we shouldn`t have left Afghanistan because al Qaeda -- I mean, because they`re still al Qaeda there, I don`t see that they ever left.
ROTHKOPF: Well, they didn`t. The Haqqani Network didn`t leave. They were the ones were who were hosting Zawahiri.
But I think that this attack and getting Zawahiri is actually a vindication of the Biden administration`s policy. A year ago, President Biden said, we are going to end this 20-year war, we`re going to withdraw our troops. But we have got the capability, using intelligence, using over-the-horizon weapons technologies, using the full set of resources we have got, to identify terror leaders, and to eliminate them when we need to do it.
And not only did they do that in this case, successfully, they did it without any civilian casualties. It was a remarkable precision strike. It was a remarkable triumph on the part of the U.S. intelligence community. But as somebody in the administration pointed out to me today, it also means that Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri both were taken out by discrete strikes, and not by massive land wars.
REID: Yes.
ROTHKOPF: And $3 trillion into those 20-year wars, thousands of U.S. dead, hundreds of thousands of dead elsewhere in the region, I think maybe one of the messages we should take away from this is, this is what we should have been doing all along.
REID: Amen.
Trita Parsi yesterday and Peter Beinart both said the age of the old land wars, it should be over at this point, at least led by the United States. I think this definitely indicates that notion.
David Rothkopf, thank you very much. Always appreciate the chance to talk with you.
And coming up next, the latest on American detainees Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan. Former U.S. Marine Trevor Reed, who was recently released from a Russian prison as part of a prisoner swap, joins me.
Don`t go anywhere. Back in a sec.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:48:48]
REID: Brittney Griner made her seventh appearance in a Moscow courtroom this morning.
Lawyers for the wrongfully detained WNBA star reportedly called in an expert who testified that the state`s examination of her vape cartridges was illegal. Griner will return to court on Thursday for closing arguments. One of her lawyers told Reuters the trial should be over -- quote -- "very soon."
It all comes as ongoing talks between the White House and the Kremlin continue on a potential prisoner swap. Last week, the U.S. offered to release imprisoned Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout in exchange for Griner, as well as Paul Whelan, who`s currently serving a 16-year sentence on alleged espionage charges.
In response, the Russians said they also want the release of another Russian national, a convicted murderer, though the administration dismissed that counteroffer as -- quote -- "bad faith."
One person has been actively calling on the government to negotiate this swap for months is Trevor Reed, who knows a thing or two about being a Russian hostage. He was held prisoner by the Kremlin for three years, before being freed this past April.
And joining me now is former U.S. Marine Trevor Reed.
It is a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much for doing this. I have been looking forward to talking with you.
And I want to just get right to one of the things that you said. You said. This was a quote from you: "There is no justice in Russia. Brittney and Paul will not receive justice in Russia. They`re not going to receive a fair trial. They`re not -- they will not receive a fair investigation. They will be there as hostages until the United States gets them out.
[19:50:13]
You know that from experience. What do you make of the fact that this trial is being -- is ongoing, with arguments being made, and that they`re proceeding as if it`s a real trial?
TREVOR REED, FORMER U.S. MARINE: Yes, so that that`s all a facade.
So Russia tries very hard to have the appearance of having a legitimate legal system, while also trying extremely hard to make sure that there is absolutely no reality of that legal system actually working.
So, everything that happens inside of a courtroom in Russia is largely just theater. It doesn`t matter what kind of evidence you have. It doesn`t matter what laws or procedures the government has violated there. They`re not going to materialize into any type of actual justice.
REID: And, obviously, the Kremlin saw you, having a Marine as a hostage, as pretty -- is for them a pretty big deal. Now they have a WNBA star.
What kind of conditions were you held in? What kind of conditions would you assume that Brittney Griner is being held in?
REED: Across the board in Russia, conditions are obviously terrible, especially for Americans.
You`re kind of caught off guard by those -- by those types of conditions. So, I mean, I was in certain cells, certain prisons where the cell looked like something that you would see out of a movie about a prison in the Middle Ages.
So, if you have ever seen the movie "Braveheart," there`s a scene in there where he`s in a dungeon in the Middle Ages in England. And I lived in cells that looked exactly like that. It`s pretty shocking for anyone from the West or from a modern civilized country to see and especially to be forced to live in those conditions.
REID: And I know that you became very ill, that your situation remained very precarious until you were negotiated out by the Biden administration, with your family really pushing them to do that.
And I`m going to play this. I would have normally not make you have to listen to this.
I`m sorry to my audience as well.
I want to listen -- have you listen to the former president of the United States talking about Brittney Griner and her detention. Take a look.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She knew you don`t go in there loaded up with drugs. And she admitted it. I assume she admitted it without too much force, because it is what it is.
And it certainly doesn`t seem like a very good trade, does it? He`s an absolute one of the worst in the world. And he`s going to be given his freedom because a potentially spoiled person goes into Russia loaded up with drugs.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
REID: It took a president to get you out. It`s going to take a president, to your -- what you have said, it`s going to take a president to get Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan out.
In your view, what might it do to Brittney Griner situation to have the former president of the United States attack her publicly?
REED: I`m obviously not qualified to really answer that. I`m not an expert.
But my opinion that is that this deal is not just a swap for Brittney Griner and Viktor Bout. This also involves Paul Whelan, who is a United States Marine Corps veteran. He`s a combat veteran. He`s been in prison for 3.5 years, and he is sitting there in prison with charges that are completely fabricated. And he is innocent.
So I think that that should also be considered whenever you`re talking about these types of deals.
REID: And we know that there is a third American there. His name is Marc Fogel. He`s been in a Russian prison for more than a year now. He`s 61 years old, a teacher who lived and worked in Russia for nearly a decade.
When you were there, was it ever communicated to you that your jailers saw you as a bargaining chip of some kind? Or did they communicate with you at all and -- at all?
REED: I mean, I did have communication with guards and prison officials there. Usually, that was involving disciplinary action.
I was resisting there actively the government, their laws there. I was refusing to work. So I was constantly involved in conversations with the prison administration there. But those were not involving larger geopolitical issues. They were more concerned with trying to force me to work.
[19:55:03]
And I told them that that wasn`t going to happen.
REID: Yes, indeed. Well, that is that Marine training.
Trevor Reed, thank you very much. Really appreciate your time this evening. Thank you for being here.
And we will be right back.
REED: Thank you.
REID: Cheers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
REID: We are just seconds away from the first polls closing on this primary night.
We will be closely watching Kansas, which has that referendum on the ballot regarding reproductive rights. Steve Kornacki will be at the Big Board throughout the night to break down the results in Kansas, as well as primary results in Missouri, Arizona, Michigan, and Washington state.
Do not go anywhere. You do not want to miss Steve. The khakis are on. He`s ready to party.
That is tonight`s REIDOUT.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.