Summary
Liz Cheney loses her primary election in Wyoming. Rudy Giuliani goes under oath in Atlanta. Donald Trump is reportedly having trouble finding top-notch legal representation, with a decision coming soon on whether to unseal the Mar-a-Lago search warrant affidavit. After Florida state attorney Andrew Warren was suspended by Ron DeSantis for speaking his mind about abortion, he fights back.
Transcript
TIFFANY CROSS, MSNBC HOST: All right tonight on THE REIDOUT:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Our nation is barreling once again towards crisis, lawlessness and violence. No American should support election deniers for any position of genuine responsibility, where their refusal to follow the rule of law will corrupt our future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: All right, the Cheney defeat and what it tells us about the Republican Party. I will tell you what it says, that election deniers and conspiracy theories -- theorists are no longer the party crashers. It is clearly their party now.
Also tonight, Rudy Giuliani under oath in Atlanta, as his legal situation looks increasingly precarious. Same could be said for Donald Trump, who is reportedly having trouble finding top-notch legal representation, with a decision coming soon on whether to unseal that Mar-a-Lago search warrant affidavit.
And Florida state attorney Andrew Warren joins me tonight. Governor Ron DeSantis suspended him for speaking his mind about abortion. And now Warren is fighting back, filing a lawsuit against DeSantis.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Tiffany Cross, in for Joy Reid.
And we begin THE REIDOUT tonight with the downfall of Liz Cheney. Now, of course, you guys remember last night. The heir of one of America`s most powerful and feared Republican families was resoundingly defeated in the Wyoming congressional primary by her former ally and friend Harriet Hageman.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIET HAGEMAN (R), WYOMING CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: Wyoming has drawn a line in the sand that, if we put you in power, you will be accountable to us, you will answer to us and you will do what is in our best interests. And if you don`t, we will fire you.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: OK, so, when Liz Cheney, the daughter of the two-term Republican Vice President Dick Cheney, last ran in 2020, she won the party primary by a resounding 73 percent.
Her loss yesterday was a stinging rebuke for Cheney, whose family has deep roots in the state and was a Republican far longer than Donald Trump. Now, what is more jarring is what her loss represents, which is the affirmation that Donald Trump remains the alpha and omega of the modern Republican Party.
A few short years ago, Cheney was a rising Republican star, becoming one of Kevin McCarthy`s chief deputies, in fact. She was so popular that, back in 2014, she was urged to run for Senate by, guess who, the woman who defeated her last night.
Now, just last year, McCarthy, standing shoulder to shoulder with Cheney, waxed poetic about the diversity of views in his caucus.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): This Republican Party is a very big tent. Everyone`s invited in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: Apparently not. Earlier this week, McCarthy flew to Wyoming to campaign against Cheney, a member of his big tent caucus. And if that wasn`t enough, he then went on national television and with a straight face had the severity to attack her for being obsessed with Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCARTHY: I think her whole focus has been different. Her whole focus has been against one individual, whether she has information or not, instead of focusing on her district itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: Cheney is one of 10 House Republicans who voted to impeach Trump over his role instigating the Capitol insurrection. She now joins three other Republicans who lost their primaries after they were vengefully targeted by the former president.
One of them, Michigan`s Peter Meijer, he told "The New York Times" -- quote -- "I can tell you the number of times somebody said, you don`t have to believe the election is stolen. The important thing isn`t believing it. It`s saying it. That is what a Republican is supposed to do right now."
And that is exactly what Liz Cheney refused to do. And, for that, she paid the price.
Now, Cheney is no Democrat. She voted with the former president 92 percent of the time, but she was booted because she dared to say out loud what all her colleagues, including Kevin McCarthy, were saying behind closed doors.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MCCARTHY: I have had it with this guy. What he did is unacceptable. Nobody can defend that and nobody should defend it.
Let me be very clear to all of you. And I have been very clear to the president. He bears responsibilities for his words and actions, no ifs, ands or buts.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CROSS: Receipts are something.
This morning, Cheney was unapologetic about her outspoken defense of the country over party.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: I won my primary by 73 percentage points two years ago. The path to that same victory would have been very easy. It was clear how that path would go. But that path would have required that I accept, that I embrace, that I perpetuate the big lie.
[19:05:01]
And I have been very clear at every moment since January 6 that there are some things that have got to be above politics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: Her loss is also a reminder that the only fundamental principles that seem to guide the modern Republican Party aren`t principles after all.
It`s the delusional rantings of a wispy-haired man roaming on a golf course who lost to Joe Biden by seven million votes. And if Cheney`s lost didn`t make that crystal clear, then please allow me to introduce you to the person Republican voters in Wyoming picked to run their election.
Chuck Gray, ladies and gentlemen, he is the nominee for secretary of state, the Republican nominee. His platform, election integrity. -- I say that in quotes -- and repeating false claims that Joe Biden became president because of significant ballot stuffing.
He will join more than a half-dozen other Republicans nominated for secretaries of state across the country who actively claim that the 2020 election was fraudulent. Scary times.
Joining me now is Charlie Sykes. He`s editor at large of The Bulwark and an MSNBC contributor. And my old pal Cristobal Alex. I think this is our first time sharing the screen together, former Biden White House deputy Cabinet secretary and also an MSNBC political analyst.
Very happy to have you both here.
Charlie, I got to kick this off with you, because 10 House Republicans voted to impeach Trump for his role in inciting the mob, Capitol Hill, as you know.
CHARLIE SYKES, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Right.
CROSS: Only two have survived their primaries. Honestly, I don`t understand why these voters are so loyal. It`s almost as if they think he`s Jesus.
And who said it better than I could? Adam Kinzinger. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): You have people today that literally, I think, in their heart, they may not say it, but they equate Donald Trump with the person of Jesus Christ.
And, to them, if you even come out against this amazing man Donald Trump, which, I mean, obviously quite flawed, you are coming out against Jesus, against their Christian values. And when you go after their religion, that violates the depth of who they are. And I have been kicked out of my tribe. And that`s OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: Charlie, the Republicans have turned a demon into a deity. Why do you think they are so blindly loyal to this man? What is the one central theme that he was able to unite so many people to follow this MAGA cult?
SYKES: Well, as you mentioned, this is not a party about ideas or a party about policies. It has become a cult of personality.
And, right now, the party line is that the election was stolen. He has turned the big lie into the absolute litmus test. And that`s what the whole story of Liz Cheney is about.
And, to that larger point, there`s no longer any doubt what the Republican Party is. Whatever vestiges the party had of resisting Trump have been wiped out. With the exception of Georgia, Trump-backed candidates, election deniers have essentially run the table, and not just Trump loyalists, but, in many cases, the most extreme versions of that.
And that`s what makes what happened with Liz Cheney so epic, that she not only lost yesterday. She lost by nearly 40 points, and it was actually worse than it looks, because she clearly got a number of Democratic voters who crossed over. So, among Republicans, it was even -- it was even uglier.
So, as a never Trumper, I think there`s no other -- there`s no other thing to say, other than Trump resistors in the Republican Party have been beaten, they have been routed, they have been pummeled. And you`re seeing that. Otherwise, Liz Cheney would have -- would have done better.
So the question is, what does she do now? And I think that that`s going to be an interesting story, but -- and the idea that somehow the Republican Party can be resurrected from this or has some rational core, some quiet core that is still resisting of Donald Trump, no, it has become a full-on totalitarian, authoritarian cult of personality.
And I think that`s going to become even more dramatically apparent in the next two years.
CROSS: I wonder, Charlie, if this will encourage more Republicans who maybe have not spoken affirmatively of Donald Trump, but have stayed quiet, I wonder if it will push them further into the MAGA cult, because you have candidates running across the country.
And not everyone has said they`re a pro-Trump Republican. But seeing the writing on the wall, I wonder if they will sink deeper into it. What`s your take there?
SYKES: Well, and again, I`m getting that quote that you had from Peter Meijer from Michigan, that you understand that you don`t have to believe it, you just have to say the words.
CROSS: Yes.
SYKES: You have to bow the knee.
But, also, I think it will drive more Republicans, normal Republicans, college-educated Republicans, out of the party, any of them. There are still Republicans who I think have held out some hope that there was a spark of rationality. And that`s gone.
[19:10:05]
And, so, many of them are going to leave. They`re going to become independents. They will vote for Democrats. Or they will just simply drop out of politics.
CROSS: And that`s where I want to bring you in, Cristobal, because that`s the concerning thing, right?
Like, I was very frustrated in 2016, and beyond, really, when you heard so many Democrats saying, I can win those Trump voters, I can win those swing voters. And you kind of want to look at the base of the Democratic Party and understand how disrespected that must have made them feel.
So I do wonder where these political -- politically homeless folks will go, and will we see the Democratic Party shift and try to make them feel welcome and roll out the red carpet? Because most of these folks were not anti-Trump policy. They were anti-Trump the tweeter. They were anti-Trump saying the quiet part out loud, like we saw Liz Cheney. She voted with him a majority of the time.
What do you think about that when it comes to Democrats?
CRISTOBAL ALEX, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, well, I think your analysis is right.
What we saw last night in Wyoming is a conservative leader in Cheney who is principled and finally stood up to impeach the defeated ex-president who was solely responsible or directly responsible for the insurrection. And she paid for it. She lost her race. She put her country over her party. And that`s very rare among Republicans nowadays.
Obviously, I don`t agree with her politics. Like you said, she voted some 94 percent of the time with Trump, but she stood up to him, and she lost.
And I think what that tells us about the Republican Party is, it`s really turning in to this ultra MAGA party or this extreme MAGA party. These are the election deniers, the conspiracy theorists. This woman who beat Cheney actually said and believes that Joe Biden is a human trafficker.
I mean, these are some wild people, some crazy stuff. This is the insane in the membrane caucus of the Republican Party, right?
CROSS: Yes.
ALEX: And they`re also -- they`re extreme when it comes to abortion. They`re extreme when it comes to voting rights. And you have got this split-screen moment.
To your question, I think what you`re seeing is this infighting over the future of the Republican Party on one hand, but then, if you look at the Democratic Party, they are really getting into array. They are passing meaningful legislation, major wins. Just yesterday, the president signed the Inflation Reduction Act.
This is the largest climate change legislation in world history. It`s one win after another from the president and Democrats.
CROSS: Yes.
ALEX: And the last point I will make about this is, I`m here in Pittsburgh right now for the start of the Netroots Conference, which is the big conference that brings together thousands of activists around the country.
CROSS: Yes.
ALEX: And you feel a sea change. You feel all of this energy and momentum building on the Democratic side, whereas, on the Republican side, you have got this infighting. They don`t know where the future of the party is going.
And you have got Trump lurking in the background, the same way he lurked on that debate stage when he was up against Hillary Clinton.
CROSS: Yes, I think the baffling thing about all this for me, Charlie, is watching this play out in real time.
I want to revisit Kevin McCarthy when he -- soon after the January 6, riot happened, and he engaged in his back and forth with Donald Trump. And I think that was the last time we saw Kevin McCarthy`s spine. If you have seen Kevin McCarthy`s spine, please let me know.
But take a listen to this exchange. And then we will talk about it on the other side.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MCCARTHY: When they started breaking into my office, myself and the staff got removed from the office.
In doing so, I made a phone call to the president, telling him what was going on, asking him to tell these people to stop, to make a video, and go out.
And I was very intense and very loud about it.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CROSS: I mean, they go on -- Kevin McCarthy went on to say, when he and Trump got in that back and forth, who the F. do you think you`re talking to?
But, Charlie, you and I have talked about this before.
SYKES: Yes.
CROSS: And so I do want to bring this up again about Liz Cheney
I have to say, yes, she is doing the right thing. That does not make her a hero, because I remember the Liz Cheney who was silent on birtherism, who echoed quietly the birtherism claims, who called Eric Holder`s department the department of jihad, instead of the Department of Justice.
She really did align herself with Trump. And so I do wonder -- I feel like she bears some responsibility. We`re seeing the Republican Party cannibalize. So I just wonder, when we look ahead to her future plans, maybe 2024, what would she say to Democrats who remember, who have the receipts from who she was pre-Trump?
SYKES: Well, I mean, she`s going to have to explain that and talk about that, as many of us do.
But the fact is that, when it came down to this moment where democracy was at risk, she was heroic. And she understood that it was an existential threat. And you saw the contrast with her and Kevin McCarthy, because she was willing to say the truth, when Kevin McCarthy chose to lie, because the lie was how he would keep power.
And maybe the bar is low. But in the Republican Party today, willingness to speak truth is heroic, and -- because you are willing to give up power, you are willing to give up the prestige, you are willing to be alienated from your friends, your constituents, your donors, your allies.
[19:15:06]
She paid a tremendous price about that. But I`m really glad you`re playing some of these sounds bites from the Ted Cruzes, the Lindsey Grahams, and the Kevin McCarthy, because -- and Kevin McCarthy, because they all know. They know who Donald Trump is. They know what Donald Trump has done. They know the threat he poses to the country.
But when it came right down to it, and they had to choose between power and their party and the country, they threw the country under the bus.
CROSS: I would say...
(CROSSTALK)
SYKES: Liz Cheney was unwilling to do that.
CROSS: Well, I take your point. I think a lot of people out there agree with you.
I would just say, while folks like Liz Cheney and others are losing their donors and their positions, there are Republican policies that caused people to lose their lives. And so it`s hard to look at her as a hero for finally doing the right thing.
But Twitter always agrees with you, Charlie, every time we have this conversation, so I will leave it at that.
Thank you so much here -- for being here, Charlie Sykes.
And, Cristobal, so great to see you. Looking forward to seeing you soon.
And coming up next on THE REIDOUT, it was -- was that that guy Rudy? Rudy Giuliani sneaking out. It looks like he`s avoiding the cameras after six hours of testimony before a special grand jury looking into election interference in my neck of the woods down there in Georgia. When has Rudy ever avoided the cameras?
We`re going to talk about that on the other side.
THE REIDOUT continues right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:21:03]
CROSS: All right, all eyes were on the Fulton County courthouse in Atlanta today, where Rudy Giuliani spent more than six hours testifying before a special grand jury in Georgia`s investigation of efforts by Donald Trump and others to overturn his 2020 election defeat there.
Now, "USA Today" is reporting that Giuliani`s attorney, Robert Costello, declined to say whether Trump`s personal lawyer invoked his right against self-incrimination. But he did add that it was -- quote -- "cordial," whatever that means.
It was just a few days ago that prosecutors informed Giuliani that he was now a target in the investigation, making him the closest person to Trump to reach that status.
Now, while we don`t know what Giuliani was saying or not saying inside the courtroom -- grand juries are, of course, closed -- he`s been talking to friendly media this week about the Georgia case. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I was his lawyer of record in that case. The statements that I made are either attorney-client privileged, because they were between me and him, or they were being made on his behalf in order to defend him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: Joining me now is Tamar Hallerman. She`s a senior reporter for "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution." And Frederick Lawrence, he`s a former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York and a distinguished lecturer at Georgetown Law Center.
Very happy to have you both here.
Frederick, I want to start off with you get the legal perspective here.
Can Giuliani actually invoke attorney-client privilege here? Is that even allowed?
FREDERICK LAWRENCE, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: It is allowed for certain kinds of communication.
Ordinarily, if you represent a client what you say in furtherance of that client`s representation is privileged, and you can invoke attorney-client privilege. The big exception here is that that does not cover criminal behavior by the attorney himself.
Think of it this way. A client comes into your office and says, I just stole a car. You are allowed to talk to that client about how you`re going to defend him for that charge of theft. You cannot say to the client, here`s how you hot-wire a car, so you can go out and steal one. That`s not privileged. That`s not confidential.
CROSS: Do you think that Giuliani is willing to go to jail to protect Trump?
LAWRENCE: He wouldn`t be the first. There are a lot of people who are prepared to take the risk to in order to defend him.
So I would imagine, before it comes to that, that he would invoke the Fifth Amendment, which is a different privilege. He does have the right not to incriminate himself.
Now, I heard in your opening that they said it was cordial. If Bob Costello says it was cordial, that doesn`t sound like the Fifth Amendment. But it`s very hard to know. Nobody knows what went on inside that room, except for the grand jurors, the prosecutor and Mr. Giuliani himself.
CROSS: Well, let`s talk about the grand jurors tomorrow, because I want to shift a bit to Lindsey Graham. We will get back to Giuliani, but focusing on Graham just for a second, something I find very interesting,I grew up in Atlanta, and Fulton County is one of the most reliably Democratic counties in the entire nation.
It`s also a county that`s a majority people of color. Is there some irony in the fact that Lindsey Graham tried to have black votes thrown out, basically, and now faces the consequences of his actions by grand jurors that likely look like some of the people whose votes he was trying to get thrown out? And how perilous of a situation do you think Lindsey Graham is in down there?
TAMAR HALLERMAN, "THE ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION": Well, right now, a lot of the maneuvering we have seen with Senator Graham has been in federal court.
Just this week, a federal U.S. district court judge told him that she would not be quashing his subpoena. She directed him to come testify before the special grand jury next week. He`s asking for a pause in that, so he can appeal this ruling up to the conservative 11th Circuit Court of Appeals.
And his lawyers are insisting that he was told that he was not a target of this investigation, that he was merely being -- asking to give testimony as a witness to all of this. And we will see where all of this leads.
So far, judges have not been willing to kill subpoenas for anyone, including members of Congress, members of the legislature. And now our own governor has been moving to quash his subpoena as well. But, so far, judges are saying, no, you have got to go before the special grand jury.
[19:25:13]
There may be guardrails about what may or may not be asked because of things like legislative privilege, but they still have had to go in and testify.
CROSS: I want to stick with that. Well, you brought up by the Republican governor there, Brian Kemp. You have new reporting out today around that situation of him trying to get out.
But Brian Kemp was not -- he was not necessarily Trump`s favorite. I mean, Trump endorsed his opponent. And Brian Kemp, of course, remained blindly loyal, as they`re known to do in the MAGA cult.
Why do you think he is so resistant and hesitant to testify?
HALLERMAN: It seems like there`s been a real communication breakdown between the governor`s office and the Fulton DA`s office about kind of the questions, the types of questions that could be asked, the circumstances, kind of what is under oath, what`s on the record, what is and is not allowed to be asked.
And, remember, the governor is up for reelection this year. He faces Democrat Stacey Abrams in a rematch of their 2018 match against each other. And, I mean, certainly there are political points to be scored here. He`s arguing that the Fulton DA is playing politics with a lot of this. I`m sure she will be arguing the same in her response to the governor as well.
And this is a moment where you see many Republicans here in Georgia who are arguing that this investigation is a partisan witch-hunt, and they`re trying to use it on the campaign trail.
CROSS: Well, I`d argue that Brian Kemp has engaged in voter suppression for decades, as evidenced by so many incidents down there that I could recount. But we haven`t even the time. That`s how much it`s been.
Frederick, I want to come back to you on the Giuliani situation.
Take a listen, because in this battle that we`re seeing happen between Trump and the legal system, there`s also sometimes battles between he and his allies. Now, he and Rudy Giuliani had been BFFs so far, but Giuliani seems to keep a card in his back pocket. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: I mean, I have seen -- I have seen things written like, he`s going to throw me under the bus.
QUESTION: Right.
GIULIANI: When they say that, I say, he isn`t, but I have insurance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: He has insurance.
What insurance might he have, do you think? And can that comment come back, I mean, legally? I know, this isn`t an episode of "Law & Order" that gets wrapped up in one hour.
LAWRENCE: Right.
CROSS: But legally, can someone asked him, you mentioned that you had insurance on him; expound, please?
LAWRENCE: I don`t think somebody would say that in front of a grand jury.
But I will tell you, a prosecutor might say that to his lawyer off the record and say, look, he said he had insurance. This would be the time to come forward with that, because, right now, we`re this far from indicting him. If he wants not to be indicted, then this is the time to talk.
So I would read that as a signal that he was sending not only to the Trump Organization, but also to the prosecutors, that, if this thing reaches all the way to the water`s edge, that he does have evidence he`s prepared to provide.
CROSS: This is -- that`s interesting just hearing you talk about that, Frederick. It feels like this is language used to describe a crime syndicate.
This feels very much "The Sopranos," and not a political system or organization.
I want to play one last thing. This is from Giuliani`s former press secretary Ken Frydman describing Giuliani as nervous. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN FRYDMAN, FORMER GIULIANI PRESS SECRETARY: He knows he lied to legislators. He knows that he concocted this false electors scheme.
He knows he lied for his client. And he knows. We all know. It`s clear. Rudy flew too close to the sun. He got too close to Trump. He got burned. At this point in his life, his goal is to die of free man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: Tamar, how do you think that the people of the grand jury, if they`re allowed to see that or if they have seen that, how might they receive that and respond to that when hearing his testimony?
HALLERMAN: I have no idea. This grand jury has been pretty leak-proof at this point. We don`t know who these folks are. As you mentioned, Fulton County is a pretty darn blue county. Joe Biden won with something like 72 percent of the vote.
And still there are folks who voted for Trump. And as I have spoken to some witnesses who have come to testify before the grand jury, including in the secretary of state`s office, they have mentioned that they -- they have had grand jurors ask them about whether there was widespread fraud in the election.
So I`m not going to pretend to know what`s in their heads. But you mentioned kind of comparing all this to a potential crime syndicate. And something that the Fulton DA, Fani Willis, has mentioned repeatedly is that she`s looking at racketeering charges, potentially, for this case.
That`s something that, of course, Giuliani helped pioneer in the `80s and `90s in New York.
CROSS: Wow. It all comes full circle.
Well, thank you so much, Tamar Hallerman, for being here and Frederick Lawrence. Thanks to you both for giving important context.
[19:30:02]
And still ahead for you folks to home: Trump struggles to find a respectable defense attorney willing to actually defend him. This is all happening as we await tomorrow`s hearing on unsealing that contentious Mar- a-Lago search affidavit.
We`re going to dig into that after this break. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:35:02]
CROSS: All right, a hearing tomorrow in Florida could determine if we see another key document relating to the FBI search at Mar-a-Lago.
The federal judge who approved the search warrant will hear arguments on whether to unseal that affidavit that the federal investigators used to justify the search of Trump`s Florida compound.
Now, the former president says he wants the document released -- quote -- "immediately," while the Justice Department actually opposes the move. They cite an ongoing investigation and argue that it contains highly sensitive information about what witnesses and other information required by law to be kept under seal.
Meanwhile, as the former president`s legal problems grow, "The Washington Post" reports Trump and close aides have spent eight days since the FBI searched his home rushing to assemble a team of respected defense lawyers. But the answer they keep hearing is no.
Joining me now is David Henderson. He`s a civil rights attorney and former prosecutor. And Barbara McQuade, she`s a former U.S. attorney, MSNBC legal analyst, and professor at the University of Michigan School of Law.
Barbara, I want to start with you, because affidavits are advocacy documents. Although everything needs to be true, there isn`t exactly any exculpatory information.
Why would Trump want this unsealed? I mean, do you think this is his way of trying to figure out who informants are? And, again, this feels like we`re talking about a crime syndicate, and not a former president.
BARBARA MCQUADE, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: You`re absolutely right, Tiffany.
I think part of this is his public relations bid. He wants to try to frame himself as somehow being a victim and targeted and being treated very unfairly. And so this is something that he can argue about.
But I think there`s really zero percent chance that this judge will release the search warrant affidavit at this time, because, as you said, the Justice Department has said it would compromise the identities of witnesses, as well as reveal grand jury material, which, by law, cannot be released.
And so I think there`s no chance. But imagine what, not Trump, but his followers might do to a witness who gets identified and outed by this affidavit. We saw that attack of the Cincinnati FBI field office last week. One could just imagine what would happen to this person, whoever it may be, who is identified in this affidavit.
CROSS: Yes, we saw that in the attack on the field office on -- last week on Friday. This week, on Monday, we have seen the social media sites like TRUTH Social dox FBI agents. They released the name of an agent, his -- the school where his child attends, his wife.
So, very good point, Barbara, to make about what could potentially happen if they unseal that document.
I want to go to you, David, because why do you think this has become such a political flash point, this affidavit itself? I feel like, for those of us who get paid to consume the minutiae, we are focused on it. I think people outside the Beltway probably want to know, what is going to be the consequence of this president`s actions?
DAVID HENDERSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Tiffany, I think the reason it`s become such a flash point is because of the other cases that normally force us into these types of discussions.
We`re used to seeing processes where prosecutors are doing things behind closed doors, and, often, it`s protect bad actors. We saw that in Breonna Taylor`s case, for example. We have grown so accustomed to that, it`s difficult for us to contemplate when prosecutors need to keep something secret for the purpose of protecting the integrity of an investigation.
What this is, is the scene from every detective show where they go over to a judge`s house. Normally, it`s at night or, for some reason, during brunch. And they say, we need to kick in someone`s door, Judge. This is why . And then all that information, in real life, you write it down, and the other side, the defendants, never get to know about it.
And here`s the reason why. If Trump knows you`re coming to Mar-a-Lago to pick up boxes, the boxes probably aren`t going to be there when you get there. If Trump finds out who witnesses are, you will probably see pressure put on those people to not talk directly or indirectly.
And so it`s good for him to not know what DOJ is up to until they make their next move.
CROSS: Yes, really good point.
Barbara, I want you to take a listen to Trump`s lawyer Alina Habba, who wants to argue to uncover everything. Take a listen, and I will talk about it on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALINA HABBA, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: The president`s position, the same as what I would advise him, is to ask them to uncover everything, so that we can see what is going on.
I understand the witness protection issue. But, at the same time, these witnesses are truly not going to be concealed for very long. That`s just not the nature of the DOJ and the FBI.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: So, this kind of runs contrary to what you said.
And here`s the thing about all of this. Trump has raked in millions off of this search. He`s fund-raising off of this search. And you have to wonder, when so many people are watching a propaganda network, hearing misinformation and disinformation, these are hardworking people, I imagine, who are flooding his coffers on a lie.
Your thoughts on what the lawyer said and the fact that he`s making money off of this?
MCQUADE: Well, the best defense for Donald Trump is always a good offense. Whenever he can go on the offensive, portraying himself as the victim, it`s what he does.
[19:40:05]
And so, absolutely, he`s going to fund-raise about this. And now he can pretend be outraged about not seeing the affidavit, which never gets turned over at this stage. Charges have not been filed yet in this case. Typically, that affidavit gets unsealed shortly after charges are filed, and the defendant is arraigned in discovery.
And that`s the point at which they can challenge it in court if they want to do that. And so this point by the lawyer that, well, it`s going to be known anyway at some point, we might as well know now, I think, is not a good point, because the time at which that gets turned over, if there`s a witness protection issue, might be not until after the witness testifies at trial.
That`s the point at which the defendant gets to see all of the prior statements, so that they can do an effective cross-examination. But if there`s a witness safety issue, it doesn`t come out until after the testimony. And that is to avoid the kind of witness tampering that David just talked about.
CROSS: Wow.
David, another thing that happened this week, Vice -- former Vice President Mike Pence flirted with the idea of going before the January 6, committee. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If there was an invitation to participate, I would consider it.
If there was ever any formal invitation rendered to us, we`d give it due consideration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: So this is my question, David, because Mike Pence has tweeted out criticism of this FBI search.
And Donald Trump really stood aside while people were outside saying, "Hang Mike Pence."
The fact that he`s saying he`s willing to give it consideration, but also still somewhat defending this president, and still falling in line with the extremist right-wing Republican GOP party that we have now, is baffling to me. Why do you think that is?
HENDERSON: Tiffany, the law is a game of nerves.
I tell my clients that all the time, and I have had to say it in many different contexts as a lawyer. Normally, the longer something goes on, the more pressure builds, the more people have to contemplate whether or not they want to be on the right side of history. And the January 6 proceedings have done a remarkable job of putting pressure on people to do the right thing.
If you look back at a lot of that testimony, I think Pence comes out looking like a bigger hero than he actually is. And, mind you,I`m a trial lawyer. So it`s in my nature to think through how things really went down. They went to him and said, hey, just say we won the election. And he didn`t just say, no, that`s unethical, I can`t do that.
He said, it`s hard for me to imagine that`s legal. Let me have my guy check it out. And Greg Jacob comes back and says, of course that`s not legal. Are you thinking that no one just thought of that before?
And so, ultimately, he comes around to eventually doing the right thing, which is what I think we`re seeing him flirt with here. But, again, it`s because the pressure is mounting, and he has to think through, how do I want to look when my kids or grandkids are reading about this in a textbook one day?
CROSS: Too late for that.
I wanted to ask you both what this might mean for a potential 2024 Donald Trump run, but, sadly, we are out of time. And we will have to save that question for another time.
So, thank you, David Henderson and Barbara McQuade.
HENDERSON: Thank you.
CROSS: And coming up for you guys at home, Florida state attorney Andrew Warren is officially challenging his recent suspicion by Governor -- or suspension by Governor Ron DeSantis.
He joins me next to tell us why it`s more than just his job that`s at stake.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:47:56]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): The state of Florida is the state, is the place where woke goes to die.
We are not going to let this state...
(APPLAUSE)
DESANTIS: We`re not going to let this state descend into some type of woke dumpster fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: When he starts saying look, it`s time for everyone else to stop.
Ron DeSantis really wants to be president, doesn`t he? I mean, you can just see it in his eyes as he unleashes his vision for America, a place where books are burned and history is unlearned. You can even call it Orwellian, down to the ousting of those who threaten his vision.
This is something DeSantis did two weeks ago when he, without warning, suspended Andrew Warren, a twice-elected Florida state attorney. Now, the removal occurred because of statements Warren had signed pledging not to prosecute cases related to abortion or gender-affirming care, meaning a Florida state attorney was really banished from office, literally forced out of office, by an armed deputy, and not for anything he did, but for what he said and for what he thinks.
Now Warren is suing DeSantis in federal court, citing free speech rights and prosecutorial discretion.
Joining me now is that man himself, Andrew Warren.
Mr. Warren, thank you so much for being here. And this is such a bizarre story. And it feels baffling to watch it play out in real time.
Now, you were suspended for something they believed you would do, not for something you actually did. I`m no lawyer, but that does not sound legal. It certainly doesn`t sound ethical. Is it?
ANDREW WARREN, HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, FLORIDA, STATE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s not.
I mean, Tiffany, the governor has broken two laws here. I mean, first, he`s violated my free speech rights by retaliating against me because I spoke out on two of his favorite culture war issues, abortion and transgender rights.
And, secondly, he`s violated the Florida Constitution by abusing his power to suspend me without any legal justification. So, we filed this lawsuit because we want to make sure that, even though Ron DeSantis is still the governor of Florida, the First Amendment has meaning and the Florida Constitution has meaning and, most importantly, elections have meaning.
[19:50:03]
CROSS: Elections do have meaning.
And I think it`s cast a dark shadow across the rest of the country in 2016, when Donald Trump was elected, because you`re seeing folks like Ron DeSantis. Trump may die. Trumpism is here to stay. And Ron DeSantis appears to be the heir apparent to Donald Trump. And this is a certain play right out of his playbook, firing someone because he doesn`t like them, essentially.
The polling in Florida shows that Ron DeSantis` approval rating is at 50 percent. That may seem low. It`s still a lot of people who like and support this man. What do you anticipate happening in this lawsuit, given the support that Ron DeSantis has?
WARREN: Well, we anticipate winning.
I mean, the governor exists in a political world now. So, whether he`s running for president or trying to out-Trump Trump, or both, the fact is that facts still matter, and truth still matters, and the law, most importantly, still matters.
So we do expect to win this. I mean, this is not about me. This is not about one elected official being suspended. This is about our defense of democracy. Everybody, whether you`re Republican, Democrat, independent, should be outraged by this, because your vote matters.
And for the -- for a governor to be able to throw out your vote violates the most sacred trust of our democracy.
CROSS: It certainly does.
And he`s doing a rally for J.D. Vance there in Florida. As a member of the press, I find some things very concerning about this. He -- they have very bizarre media restrictions. Journalists must agree to give access to their footage to the event organizer, which is the pro-Trump GOP...
WARREN: I can hear you.
CROSS: ... youth group Turning Point Action.
And explain how they intend to use it. This also seems to violate the First Amendment right of this Constitution. What say you?
Andrew?
All right, unfortunately, we lost Andrew Warren. But, as you just heard, he is suing Governor Ron DeSantis.
WARREN: I can.
CROSS: And we will see what happens there. We will keep our eye on it.
Thank you, Andrew Warren, for being here.
We will pick this discussion up on the other side of the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:56:23]
CROSS: All right, back with me as Andrew Warren, Florida state attorney.
Glad we got you back, Mr. Warren, because I did want you to weigh in on this campaign event that Governor DeSantis is doing with J.D. Vance. And they have very strange rules for the press, where the press has to turn over their footage to the pro-Trump group Turning Points, who`s hosting Turning Point Action, and they have to explain how they plan on using the footage.
I was just asking you that that also seems like it`s in violation of the First Amendment, and wanted to get your thoughts there.
WARREN: Yes, I mean, we`re seeing violations of people`s constitutional rights left and right here.
I mean, let`s go back. We saw that so many people tried to overthrow an election on January 6. Ron DeSantis did it on August 4. He threw out the results of the state attorney`s election in Hillsborough County. But that`s why we`re fighting back.
I mean, and we want people to come join us in that fight at AndrewWarrenFL.com, because this isn`t about me. This is about defending our democracy.
CROSS: Absolutely.
Well, Andrew, we will definitely keep our eye on this lawsuit, as we keep our eye on a lot of things that Florida man does down there.
So, thank you so much for being here. We appreciate having you.
And...
WARREN: Thanks for having me.
CROSS: Thank you.
And one last thing before we go.
This week, President Biden signed the largest climate bill in U.S. history, and it could not have come soon enough. This has been a summer of climate extremes for the entire world. China is currently experiencing its worst heat wave in 60 years.
Europe has been hit with nonstop record heat waves, leading to raging wildfires and droughts throughout the continent. The United States has had its own share of extreme weather, with thousands of wildfires -- 50 are currently burning right now -- plus, once-in-a-lifetime events like the devastating floods in Kentucky last month.
We have had extreme heat as well, with 48 million Americans experiencing dangerous levels of heat today, just today. And a terrifying new study predicts that by, 2053, 107 million people living in an extreme heat belt reaching as far north as Chicago could experience heat index temperatures above 125 degrees.
But even more pressing is a 23-year-old megadrought that the American West is currently facing, leading the Bureau of Reclamation to announce unprecedented water cuts yesterday. In January, Arizona will lose 21 percent of its yearly allocation, with Nevada losing 8 percent.
The Colorado River provides water to 40 million people living in seven states in the West and cities like Las Vegas, Los Angeles and Phoenix. But 80 percent of the water is actually used for agriculture, things like growing produce, that feeds the entire country. The river feeds into Lake Mead and Lake Powell, which are currently at their lowest level in decades.
Take a listen. This is NBC`s Steve Patterson at Lake Powell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE PATTERSON, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Just to give you a sense of the scope of this crisis, you go back before the drought, and where I`m standing right now, I`d be about 40 feet underwater.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSS: It`s a great visualization of just how dire the problem is.
President Biden`s bill is a great first step, but we certainly have a lot more work to do.
All right, that`s tonight`s THE REIDOUT.
But don`t go anywhere, because "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on ALL IN:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, CO-HOST, "THE TODAY SHOW": House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said she fears for our very democracy if Republicans win in November. Do you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The fate of democracy and the Republican Party in the wake of Liz Cheney`s loss.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I think we have to make sure that we are fighting against every single election denier. The election deniers right now are Republicans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:00:06]
HAYES: Then: What did Rudy Giuliani tell a Fulton County grand jury?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Do you believe President Trump is the ultimate target of this investigation?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: And are we on the verge of seeing a road map to the government`s ongoing