Summary
U.N. says, at least 3 million have fled Ukraine. Three E.U. leaders meet with Zelenskyy in Kyiv. President Biden to travel to Europe next week. Ukrainian leader speaks to Canadian lawmakers.
Transcript
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: President Obama also tested positive for COVID about two days ago. He`s mentioned a scratchy throat but says, overall, he is feeling fine.
Those are your updates out of Washington. THE REIDOUT with Joy Reid is up next with special Samantha Power, one of President Biden`s top human rights officials.
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, everyone. We begin THE REIDOUT tonight with Russia`s assault against Ukrainian civilians. As the number of refugees tops 3 million in a matter of weeks, many are facing food and medicine shortages along with the constant threat of deadly shelling and air attacks. According to the telegram channel of a Ukrainian official, about 20,000 people left Mariupol today in private cars through a humanitarian corridor while Kyiv, the capital, under increasing fire, has imposed a new curfew as its mayor braces the city for a difficult and dangerous moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VITALI KLITSCHKO, MAYOR OF KYIV: The spirit right now, everyone is angry. I talk to the people. They don`t want to leave.
This is international criminal case, what Russians do it with civilian people in our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: The increasing assault comes as three European Union leaders travel by train to Kyiv in a show of solidarity. Here is video posted on Ukraine`s telegram channel of Zelenskyy meeting with the prime ministers of the Czech Republic, Poland and Slovenia, while President Biden, in a display of unity with NATO leaders, will head to Brussels next week.
President Volodymyr Zelenskyy continues to drum up support from leaders abroad. Here he is today in a virtual address to Canadian lawmakers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: They already killed 97 Ukrainian children. We`re not asking for much. We`re asking for justice, for real support, which will help us to prevail, to defend, to save life, to save life all over the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: The Ukrainian president is set to make that pitch to the U.S. Congress tomorrow morning as cities and towns are reduced to rubble.
And as casualties mount, including the deaths of two journalists working for Fox News, we`re reminded that the invasion has and will continue to be a war against civilians.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Now, for those who couldn`t catch all the subtitles, some of what this Ukrainian woman is saying is, we are bombed during the day and during night. We are peaceful civilians and it is a nightmare what Russia is doing.
Of course, Russia has done the same to Syrians when Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, with Russian support, used many of the brutal tactics now seen in Ukraine.
In a powerful rebuke that went viral in 2016, Samantha Power, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations at that time, accused Assad and his Russian and Iranian allies of putting a noose around civilians.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMANTHA POWER, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Your barrel bombs and mortars and airstrikes have allowed the militia in Aleppo to encircle tens of thousands of civilians in your ever tightening noose. It is your noose, three member states of the U.N. contributing to a noose around civilians.
It should shame you. Instead, by all appearances, it is emboldening you. You are plotting your next assault. Are you truly incapable of shame? Is there literally nothing that can shame you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Joining me now is Samantha Power, who is the administrator of the United States Agency for International Development. Administrator Power, thank you so much for being here. I am pleased to get the chance to talk with you.
I will note for our audience that you began your career as a journalist and you have covered the sort of wars and horrors and that have taken in places like Bosnia, in East Timor, Rwanda, Sudan, Zimbabwe. When you look at what`s happening in Ukraine right now, do you see the same kinds of, let`s be blunt, war crimes?
POWER: Well, when you intentionally strike civilians, it`s a war crime. It`s fairly straightforward. And it is very clear and you see in city after city the tactics that the Russian Federation are employing are consistent. They are denying food, medicine, water into civilian areas and they are shelling residential buildings, maternity hospitals, more than 31 medical facilities that had been verified, probably more once there is more access granted.
[19:05:05]
So, it is historic as anything I`ve seen in my life and my career.
REID: Do you think that the impunity with which Russia has been allowed to operate in places like Syria, the fact that their mercenaries have operated in places Zimbabwe, and there`s been no repercussions for Putin, there`s been no repercussions for Bashar al-Assad in the complete laying waste to Aleppo with the help of Russian forces, do you think that that impunity communicated in some way to Putin that he could get away with this and that that might be the problem, that he needs to be personally sanctioned for what is happening?
POWER: Well, as you know, he has been personally sanctioned, as has the Russian economy, and so many sources of wealth and income for the oligarchs who have surrounded and enabled and abetted Putin. You know, our focus is on keeping this unprecedented coalition together.
In the Syria crisis, notwithstanding the gas attacks and the attacks on Aleppo, there was a lot more division than there is now. You could not have mobilized the kind of U.N. General Assembly rebuke that Ambassador Thomas- Greenfield mobilized along with her Ukrainian colleagues just a week ago.
So, this unity, this squeeze on the Russian economy is in position of costs. The strategic failure that we are witnessing, even as Russia, again, may secure a tactical success here or there and may wreak terror on civilians, but, fundamentally, Vladimir Putin has not able to achieve his objectives in Ukraine. That is clear. REID: Do you think -- and, ultimately, you`re correct, he`s been personally sanctioned, but will he ultimately go the way of Slobodan Milosevic? Could he be, in theory, tried for the war crimes, ultimately, for what he`s done?
POWER: You know, life is long and I can`t speculate. I wish I knew what was coming tomorrow, never mind the distant future. But I think what is important is we in the U.S. government and our European friends are funding the partners we have been funding for years as they moved in a democratic direction, as they sought to integrate their economy with Europe, as they sought to build the rule of law and end the kind of impunity that we see officials in the Russian government enjoy.
Those same groups that we`ve been funding for years for those purposes, many of them have now turned their sights to gathering evidence knowing that the International Criminal Court has announced that it plans to open an investigation, knowing that the Human Rights Counsel last week created a commission of inquiry where a lot of that evidence will ultimately be funneled.
So, there is personal accountability for individuals who have had assets frozen, who won`t be able to travel. We`ve seen their rubles depreciate. We`ve seen access to the kind of perks that being friends with Putin had -- that they enjoyed before, that`s personal accountability. This other form of accountability lies in the future but we need to build the evidentiary record now.
REID: We have a piece of video of yourself in Bosnia back in the day in your diplomatic career. And, you know, just to compare the amount of devastation and the number of refugees and displaced persons that are being created now, there you are. The wars in Yugoslavia from 1991 to 2001 created 2.4 million refugees, 2 million internally displaced people, and 100,000 people were killed. Moving to Syria, 6.6 million refugees, 6.7 million internally displaced, 350,000 people killed. And that was from 2011 to today.
We already have 3 million refugees in several weeks, not a year. This is an unprecedented number of displaced people. How does Europe absorb, number one, poorer countries, like Moldova, who don`t have huge economies? Is it even possible, because if you do the math, three weeks from now, it could be 6 million people? How do these surrounding countries even physically absorb these many refugees?
POWER: You`re right. I mean, this is a country of 44 million people that Putin has sought to invade and appears intent on trying to destroy. And the pace of displacement we`re seeing right now, I have never seen in my career. It`s not only the 3 million that you mentioned that have crossed further field into Europe and across the border that so many journalists are gathered, it`s the 2 to 3 million internally displaced. So, already, well over 10 percent of the population of Ukraine displaced.
[19:10:02]
And as you note, we`re just a little two weeks into this war.
So, this is something where we have to look ahead. We need to prepare for much larger influxes if some of the bigger towns, for example, like Odessa, in the south, were to be attacked, that could mean another million people coming further into Europe if you started to see larger scale evacuations being allowed. Because, remember, the Russian Federation isn`t even allowing wholesale evacuations from major civilian centers in the east in the way that international law demands that they do.
But you`re right. You could see the numbers that we`re seeing now pale in comparison to what we see a few weeks from now. And what that means is that it is possible for those frontline states, especially Moldova, a country of just 3 million people that`s not a member of the European Union, that has never fielded a refugee flow like this before, and is now at capacity with 130,000, 140,000 people with Ukraine living in Moldova, but several hundred thousand more have passed through Moldova and moved on to Romania and further into Europe.
You will see more and more people entering Poland and then going to Germany, going to Spain, going to a country of origins, to Ireland, which has been incredibly welcoming on a per capita basis. And I`m sure there will be questions beyond that if this refugee flow continues. But that is why, again, our focus is on changing Putin`s calculus in the here and now, just as the Ukrainian president`s focus is in sitting down for diplomatic talks in the hopes that de-escalation can be achieved and that peace can be brought to this country before you start to see the doubling, the triple, even the quadrupling of population flow from what we have now.
REID: We saw due to the violence that took place in Syria, again, violence that was, in part, fueled by Putin and his military, you saw an exodus of people coming from Syria into Europe. That literally destabilized governments because people didn`t want all of those people who were largely Muslim to come in. Brexit, in large part, happened out of a resistance to immigration and to migration.
Do you foresee this migration, at some point, becoming destabilizing politically in Europe and should the United States and Great Britain take more refugees from Ukraine?
POWER: Well, as you know, we have, of course, it goes without saying, extended the visas of Ukrainians who are present here under TPS. And I think, so far, we`re not hearing from those Ukrainians who were crossing the border other than those with select family members in select cases who were in the United States but we`re not hearing an outpouring of a desire to go further afield. Because, remember, these families have left their husbands, their sons and their fathers behind and they want to stay close. And above all, they want to go home. They expect to win the war and they expect to return to their homes and get about the business of rebuilding.
And I know that feels a long way off looking at some of the ghastly images from today but that is the conviction of the people who are there. If we start to see the kinds of population flow that we were referring to earlier, absolutely, I think every country is going to have to consider, you know, what its share of the responsibility is to welcome individuals who are part of that flow. But, for now, again, Europe is managing this with great generosity and, you know, in a spirit of unity that you`re right, we didn`t see with regard to prior flows.
In terms of the American domestic political welcome, usually and historically, the question of whether to welcome large numbers of refugees has been polarizing. It was polarizing crazily during World War II when Jews were fleeing Hitler. It was polarizing in 1956 when Hungarians were fleeing Soviet tanks. It was polarizing when Cambodians and Vietnamese people came to this country after the Vietnam War.
So far, again, in Europe it has not been polarizing and I really hope that the unity that we have seen up on Capitol Hill, the bipartisanship, all of the congressional delegations who are going to the border, hearing these stories firsthand, could allow us to maintain to be in that solidarity over time.
REID: Indeed. And I neglected to mention, of course, Afghanistan, which also became a question of how many people would be welcomed there. We`ve spent more than 20 years fighting a war there and, again, there was this question of how many we would welcome.
Samantha Power, I didn`t have time to ask you about being sanctioned with Putin. You`re on a list with Hillary Clinton, who had a great -- she had a great line about it about whether or not people were -- you`re not going to be able spend all of your rubles.
[19:15:00]
They worth so much. But, apparently, you`re on quite a long list of people who have been sanctioned as well, but I won`t even ask you about it. I`m going to leave it there. Administrator Samantha Power, thank you so much for some of your time.
Up next on THE REIDOUT, the courageous efforts to undermine the Russian propaganda machine and the harsh measures being used to stifle dissent.
Also, a Republican congressman called them tourists. Now, a document revealed in the indictment of a former Proud Boys leader, Enrique Tarrio, reveals a detailed plan to storm government buildings on January 6th.
Plus, Putin may have unleashed his secret of paramilitary group on Ukraine, but the reemergence of the Wagner Group tells us a lot how badly things are going for the Russian military.
And as we go to break, take a look at the stirring performance of the Ukrainian national anthem at last night`s benefit concert for Ukraine at the Metropolitan Opera in New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:22]
REID: As the war in Ukraine heads into a third week, the Kremlin has been working overtime to stifle dissent and bolster its propaganda machine.
Since the start of the invasion, some two dozen independent Russian media organizations have been forced to shut down or have chosen to halt operations, according to "The Wall Street Journal." That`s not surprising after the Kremlin passed a law making it a crime punishable by up to 15 years in prison for reporting anything that the Russian government considers -- quote -- "fake news about its military."
It could be the fate of an editor at Russia`s state-run television network who protested the war. During the live news broadcast yesterday. Marina Ovsyannikova was in court today and fined 30,000 rubles, or about 300 American dollars, for a video message she recorded before her on-air protest. There is no word yet on what charges she will face for the actual protest.
And The Daily Beast reports that there are others who have dared to veer away from the government`s talking points on Russian TV, some even pleading with Putin to stop the war before sanctions bring down the country.
Joining me now is Julia Davis, columnist for The Daily Beast.
Give us some more details, Julia, about this, because it`s incredibly brave. I thought that what Ms. Ovsyannikova did was incredible. She walks out and does this physical protest. But she was smart enough to record a video beforehand and send it to a human rights group, so that we could understand what she was doing and why. But she still faces incredible peril.
How prevalent are those kinds of protests? Or are they increasing in number?
JULIA DAVIS, COLUMNIST, THE DAILY BEAST: I have been watching Russian state media for years and monitoring what happens there. I have never seen anything like it.
I was incredibly stunned by her bravery. But there are cracks in the facade of the Russian state media, even though it is extremely tightly controlled by the Kremlin, where even pro-Kremlin pundits are starting to question the wisdom of invading Ukraine, and calling for the bloodshed to stop.
REID: And do you think that these protests -- I don`t know if you`re able to sort of tell how much they break through, and how much of the Russian population, because, as reporters have been telling us, if you go out into sort of the rural parts of the country, people are much more reliant on state media.
So, this obviously would have broken through there. But if you`re in the more urban centers, if you`re in Moscow, people are more knowledgeable. Do you think that this -- that the truth about the war is getting out in a large way?
DAVIS: I think it is.
And what she did definitely brought it to millions of people that would at least make them question what is going on. What is so severe and serious that this woman would essentially throw away her future in order to expose it and speak out against it?
REID: In your Daily Beast article, you talk about some of the really absurd things that are being said on Russian state TV.
This is from your article: "We should be thinking" -- and this is a Russian Parliament member known as the Kremlin`s spin doctor, went on state television with these wild demands.
"We should be thinking about reparations from the damage that was caused by the sanctions and the war itself, because that too costs money. We should get it back, the return of all Russian properties, those of the Russian empire, the Soviet Union and current Russia, which has been seized by the United States and so on."
The host then chimes in, says: "Are you including Alaska and Fort Ross."
And this man named Matveychev says: "Yes, that was my next point, as well as the Antarctic. We discovered it. It belongs to us."
That sounds so absurd that it`s hard for me to believe anyone, even if they are aficionados of state TV, would believe it.
DAVIS: They obviously don`t think too much of their audiences. It`s desperation speaking. It`s the same kind of desperation that caused them to impose so-called sanctions against the -- Joe Biden and Blinken and Hillary Clinton. It`s ridiculous posturing.
But at the end of it, they know there`s not a thing they can do to us economically. And all they could do is tell their people they are panicking about what`s coming for their economy, that this won`t last long, that, as soon as they have their so-called victory over Ukraine, the West will get over it, move on and not only lift the sanctions, but compensate them for the damages, which is, of course, ridiculous.
But there again, so is the rest of it.
REID: Do you think that the sense of financial isolation, economic isolation that is setting in, in Russia, where people can use their ATM cards, the SWIFT codes don`t work, where people can`t even -- do you think that that actually breaks through?
[19:25:08]
Or is that just something that urban Russians are dealing with, and those who are dealing with it are leaving or trying to get out of the country, but that, broadly, people don`t feel it?
DAVIS: I think people are feeling it quite broadly.
And that was one of the things that even pro-Kremlin pundits were complaining about. And they were so brazen to even say that the Russian government is impotent against these sanctions, and shouldn`t have even started what they started in Ukraine, unless they prepared economically for the fallout.
They are complaining that they won`t be able to fix their cars without the parts, that their phones will be unusable. And it very much will impact average Russians as well.
REID: Yes, welcome to Cuba. They`re going to have to start driving current cars for the next 30 years, if they keep it up like this.
I wonder about whether or not -- we have got some nitwits on U.S. television, one network in particular, even though their own brave journalists are out there taking risks with everyone else reporting on the war, and they`re being refuted by people on places like their morning show, where a lady from "The Real World" said, well, we should have just done what Putin said and everything would be fine, or Tucker Carlson, who`s essentially kind of become this the American spokesman for Putin and Putinism.
Does that break through in Russia? Do they -- I mean, we have gotten a report from "Mother Jones" that the Kremlin is actually advising state TV to use Tucker Carlson. Do these broader us pro-Kremlin voices break through as well? And what impact do you think they have?
DAVIS: Oh, we were just talking about that very topic, actually, when they were talking about the impact of the sanctions, and there was such a doom and gloom in the studio, that the host said, we might as well just lay down and die, it`s all bad.
And then he said, well, to lighten up the mood, let`s watch a clip of Tucker Carlson. And that was something that is so common lately. No matter which channel I monitor on Russian state television, inevitably, there will be Tucker Carlson and one of his friends telling them how smart Putin is, how he`s outfoxing Biden on every step, how Russia is supposedly not going to be affected by the sanctions, and how quickly they can break Ukraine`s will to resist.
So he is one of those voices that is constantly being featured there. And, as you know and have covered before, I have written about it for years, because it has been so obvious and so overt. Even Russian pundits had wondered out loud on state television, how long before Tucker Carlson gets arrested for being a Russian agent?
It`s a little too much even for them.
REID: Yes, indeed.
It`s why we have gone from calling him Tuckums to calling him Putin`s little helper, because he definitely seems to be trying to help.
Julia Davis, thank you so much. Really appreciate you.
And before we go to break, a quick shout-out to our very own REIDOUT writer and producer Kai Ma for her stirring, insightful essay on the plight of Ukrainian refugees, and how their struggles echo those of her own family members when they fled North Korea more than 70 years ago.
You can read it, along with other powerful essays, fresh opinions and sharp analysis online at NBC News THINK. You should definitely, definitely read it.
And up next on THE REIDOUT: A judge orders the former leader of the Proud Boys to be detained, and new information about a document detailing plans to storm government buildings on January 6.
That is straight ahead. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:33:19]
REID: A Miami judge ruled today that the indicted former leader of the Proud Boys, Henry "Enrique" Tarrio, will remain in jail pending trial.
Tarrio, who recently stepped down as chairman of the right-wing militia group, was indicted last week on seven counts related to the insurrection of January 6, including obstruction of an official proceeding.
Now, of course, Tarrio was physically -- was not physically at the Capitol that day. He was ordered by a judge to leave Washington one day earlier following his arrest for burning a Black Lives Matter flag and possessing two magazines of ammunition.
But prosecutors say he`s still led the advanced planning and remained in contact with other members of the Proud Boys during the siege. "The New York Times" is also reporting on a document found in Tarrio`s possession, which contained a detailed plan to surveil and storm government buildings around the Capitol on January 6. That`s according to people familiar with the document, which was titled "1776 Returns."
And while they said it describes the goal of occupying six House and Senate office buildings, as well as the Supreme Court, the plan itself is eerily similar to what actually transpired at the U.S. Capitol. "The Times" is careful to note that it`s still unclear who drafted the plan and whether it guided the actions of the Proud Boys on the day of the siege.
But the document could help explain why prosecutors chose to charge Tarrio with conspiracy, even though he was not at the Capitol during the attack.
With me now it`s Harry Litman, former deputy assistant attorney general and host of the "Talking Feds" podcast.
This is scary, because this is now beyond what we saw, the horrors we unfold -- saw unfold at the Capitol, taking it to other buildings.
And I want to read just a little bit of this. "Broken into five parts" -- this is how "The Times" describes this document.
[19:35:02]
It says it`s broken into these five parts, "infiltrate, execution, distract, occupy and sit in. The nine-page document recommends recruiting at least 50 people to enter each of the seven government buildings and advises protesters to appear unsuspecting and to try not to look tactical."
Well, that`s not what they did at the Capitol. They went absolutely lynch mob on the Capitol. But what do you make of this broader apparent conspiracy?
HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Yes, so it certainly gives the possibility that Tarrio had planned a much broader operation that would essentially have shut down government.
And, remember, we already know that, in an encrypted message that very day, when his -- the folks that he was leading from -- away from the scene said, what do we do now, he said, do it again.
Now, this document, it`s got this kind of militaristic style. It`s nine pages. It`s a blueprint. It`s true we don`t know who wrote it yet, et cetera. But the -- when we have these detention hearings, Joy, the U.S. has war rooms worth of evidence, and they show us slivers, and what we know now is a fraction of what they know.
So, you can bet their hard work. Right now, this wouldn`t be good for trial. But, if they find, say, the girlfriend who did give it to him, and she says, yes, I did that, and explains it all, now it is good for trial.
And, by the way, it could actually augment the conspiracy charges, because conspiracies don`t have to be successful. They can be attempted. So there`s the possibility of actually using this not just to show his intent for the actual storming of the Capitol, but to show even a broader conspiracy and criminal penalties for it.
REID: There`s also the -- sort of the word that he was saying: We`re not going to wear our traditional stuff. We`re not going to wear our black and yellow. We`re going to try to look nondescript and sort of blend in.
LITMAN: Yes.
REID: But there doesn`t seem to me to be any reason to occupy particularly government buildings related to the House and Senate, meaning the Senate office and Senate -- and House office buildings and the Supreme Court, if your goal is not to stop the counting of electoral votes and to pressure potentially the Supreme Court, the way the people at the Capitol were trying to pressure the Congress.
I`m not a lawyer or a prosecutor, but it sure does sound like that fits in with the overall conspiracy that the January 6 Committee is investigating.
LITMAN: Even more, not just to pressure, to terrorize, because you`re right. They stormed the place to stop the actual vote.
But if they`re occupying simultaneously and, as you say, they sort of sneak in, that`s the whole plan, distract and then, boom, they`re there, now there are justices whose lives are in danger, senators, anyone in Congress. They`re essentially a rebel army occupying all the essential, not just buildings, but personnel of Capitol, every -- of the Capitol, everything but the White House, and saying, do what we say, or else.
You can fill in the or else, but you can bet that would have actually brought the government to a halt and given them much more leverage. I don`t know if they thought through to the next stage.
REID: Right.
LITMAN: But this is a true terrorist widespread plot to do many things at once, kind of like 9/11, right, four different venues.
They want to terrorize and shut down the government and terrorize the nation.
REID: And it sounds like essentially a hostage situation, saying that, essentially, we`re going to...
LITMAN: Yes.
REID: As you said, we`re going to stand in this room, some of us may be armed, and you`re going to make Donald Trump president, or else. And they had a noose with them at the Capitol.
I want to play for you Madison Cawthorn. I don`t like playing him that much, because he`s not the brightest bulb in the fixture, but he was active on January 6, and he had some interesting things to say on Charlie Kirk, the little angry orange guy.
LITMAN: Yes.
REID: He looks like the angry orange -- anyway, here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MADISON CAWTHORN (R-NC): We are armed. We`re in a safe location. We can`t disclose where.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys are armed now, right? That`s a new thing. So...
CAWTHORN: Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. So, obviously, having a wheelchair, I`m able to carry many -- multiple weapons at one time. So everyone around me is armed. And I think an armed society is a polite society. So I feel very safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: I have been corrected by my producers. That is the annoying orange. I don`t want to make any angry oranges feel badly about being compared to Charlie Kirk.
My question there is, first of all, you`re not supposed to be armed inside the Capitol, but he`s claiming he was on January 6.
And based on sort of all the things that he said in his brief political career, I`m not sure who he`d be aiming those guns at. Which side would he be using those guns for? Do you think that this is something that should be investigated?
LITMAN: Oh, absolutely.
Look, this is a kind of blood of tyrants sort of Second Amendment view. And we have got Tarrio and others. Tarrio now said, oh, I have -- he doesn`t have a job. He does T-shirts.
This is an elected member of the House of Representatives trying to show -- say that we can use guns to make this happen. That`s why, by the way, Joy, he`s been sued in North Carolina to be taken off the ballot under this constitutional provision that says, you swear an oath, and then you engage in insurrection, you can`t be in Congress anymore.
[19:40:22]
But just take a step back, law or otherwise. This is a guy, a congressman aiming to do this very thing.
REID: Yes, indeed. There`s nothing more dangerous than a dangerous, stupid, armed -- more dangerous than a stupid and armed person, but we will just leave it there.
Harry Litman, thank you very much.
Up next: What is the Wagner Group? Officially, this shadowy Russian mercenary organization doesn`t exist, but Ukraine`s Defense Ministry says that they are operating in Ukraine right now.
Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
REID: By now, Vladimir Putin has made no secret his insatiable appetite for destruction.
[19:45:02]
What he has kept secret is the shadowy constellation of mercenaries that his country uses as his forces of destruction. And there are credible reports of their presence in Ukraine.
Now, you have probably never heard of them. And I can`t show you images of them, but that is sort of the point. That group is commonly referred to as the Wagner Group. According to "Foreign Policy" magazine, there is no single registered business called Wagner. Rather, the name has come to describe a network of businesses and groups of mercenaries that have been linked by overlaps in ownership and logistics networks.
Entities making up the network had been described in sanctions designations by the U.S. Treasury Department as being involved in a wide range of activities, including working to suppress pro-democracy protests, spreading disinformation, mining for gold and diamonds, and engaging in paramilitary activity.
The man in charge of that paramilitary group, Dmitry Utkin, just so happens to be a close friend of Putin. He`s so elusive that few images of him even exist. Fontanka, an authoritative Russian-language Web site, has published what it says is the only known photo of Utkin. NBC could not verify the image.
According to various reports, Utkin is an aficionado of the aesthetics and ideology of the Nazi German Third Reich, and his nom de guerre, Wagner, which also is the shorthand for Putin`s mercenaries, is allegedly a tribute to Hitler`s favorite composer, which is ironic, given that Putin false reason for invading Ukraine is to denazify the country.
Private militaries are technically banned in Russia, but that just happens to provide Putin with a convenient claim of plausible deniability, and grants him the freedom to control these forces with zero accountability. They first emerged in 2014, when they were deployed by Russia to help fight the Ukrainian army in East Ukraine.
They were there to help Russia annex Crimea. They have been active in Syria, Libya, Madagascar, and, more recently, they have been seen in the Central African Republic and Mali. Putin`s personal killers have been accused of sickening atrocities around the globe, including torturing and beheading a Syrian soldier and raping women in the Central African Republic.
They have also played a key role in carrying out Russian strategic goals abroad by influencing various elections. It will not come as a surprise to you that the man funding this group also has close ties to Putin.
Stay tuned. After the break, you will find out who he is and what he has done to the United States.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:52:08]
REID: Vladimir Putin`s campaign of violence would not be possible if it weren`t for this person, Russian oligarch Yevgeny Prigozhin, who is believed to be financing the Wagner Group.
The man most commonly known for being the sausage king of Saint Petersburg and Putin`s chef has extensive ties to the Russian Ministry of Defense, which made him a natural choice for managing Putin`s covert forces.
Now, you might recognize the name because he was sanctioned multiple times by the U.S. Treasury for financing the Internet Research Agency, better known as the Internet troll factory, which is -- which interfered in U.S. elections in 2016 and 2018.
Naturally, he has denied any connection to the Wagner Group.
Joining me now is Amy Mackinnon, national security and intelligence reporter for "Foreign Policy," and Malcolm Nance, MSNBC counterterrorism and intelligence analyst and author of the upcoming book "They Want to Kill Americans: The Militias, Terrorists, and Deranged Ideology of the Trump Insurgency."
Thank you for being here.
Ms. Mackinnon, welcome to the show.
Tell us more about this group, because I think people who`ve paid attention, and very -- not all Americans have, unfortunately -- to the things that are going on in places like Libya and Madagascar and Mali and Mozambique know who they are.
But they actually got their start basically in Ukraine. Can you just talk about that?
AMY MACKINNON, "FOREIGN POLICY": Sure.
So, the Wagner Group, as we know, first popped up in Ukraine in 2014, where we know from statements from Western governments, from reporting by journalists and from the soldiers themselves that took selfies while they were there, that the Russian military was operating in Ukraine.
But, of course, the Kremlin tried to maintain this veneer of plausible deniability to constantly deny that there were Russian troops there. And so the Wagner Group was a very convenient way to bolster their forces there, but to claim no knowledge, to claim that these were -- quote -- "little green men" that had no insignia on them, that they had nothing to do with them.
But what we do know about the Wagner Group is that they are very closely enmeshed with Russian Ministry of Defense, with Russian intelligence. And the U.S. government has even called them a proxy for the for the Russian military. So there`s a very strong relationship there.
And they have been known, as you say, to pop up in Syria and across Africa now to advance the Kremlin`s strategic objectives in these countries, but whilst maintaining this plausible deniability, so that, when things go wrong, which they sometimes do for this group, that they can wash their hands and say, well, this was nothing to do with us.
REID: Well, let me ask you, where do they come from? Because the thing is, if they`re operating in all of these different countries -- sort of one of the theories has been that it`s easier for Russians to use proxy forces who don`t have familial connections in Ukraine, because they will kill at will.
They have no chill when it comes to killing people, whereas Russian forces might be hesitant, because they might in some cases literally be killing their cousins. Is that the idea? And where -- where do they come from?
MACKINNON: Well, the vast majority of the Wagner forces, as far as we know, are also Russian themselves.
They tend to be a little bit older than your average conscript. They`re kind of in their late 30s and 40s. They come from small other cities across Russia, where times are hard, where times are tough, and people are looking for money. And Wagner pays pretty handsomely.
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This -- the fighters earn anywhere between $2,000 and $3,000, which is big money, each month in Russia. And so a lot of them are just guys that are ex-military that have these skills that are looking to -- looking to make money.
REID: They sound like some of the mercenaries, Malcolm, that we have seen. There are groups in the United States that, I guess, have the same kind of background.
How could they theoretically be used? Because it does seem that the Russian sort of force is kind of spent, in the sense that they can get around the country, wreak a lot of havoc, but they can`t seem to take and hold especially the capital, or hold a lot of territory.
How might they use these forces?
MALCOLM NANCE, NBC COUNTERTERRORISM AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, you have to understand, the Russians thought up this concept or Yevgeny Prigozhin thought up this concept to give Russia their version of Blackwater, right?
That`s the Erik Prince-led mercenary group that was operating out of North Carolina, then moved to China, United Arab Emirates, where I was living near Erik Prince for some time. And I had seen some of these people, the precursors to Wagner.
Full disclosure, I worked in Iraq at one point in the late 2010s. And we provided support to Lukoil. And there was this militia-styled group that was providing deeper security for Lukoil than the regular security guards, very tactical, very heavy.
And they kept popping up in other places, Libya, for example, which happened after 2014. These are deniability forces. And what they really are -- and proxy is a good word. But what they really are is, they are subcontractors to the Russian military intelligence agency, the GRU.
This allows them to also cross-connect with the SVR, the Russian intelligence agency, their clandestine service, and to just operate out in public. For example, one interesting thing. They not only modeled themselves after Blackwater. They also modeled themselves after one of the more famous mercenary groups that I actually had to do operations against what`s called Executive Outcomes in Sierra Leone.
And this was a group that the movie "Blood Diamond" sort of mimics, where they were literally holding sections of the country hostage and mining for diamonds. And they`re doing that now in the Democratic Republic of Congo. They somehow have enchanted the government of Mali to get rid of the French army and shift over to PMC Wagner.
This is money, guns, and a lot of strategic influence by Russia. However, didn`t work out so well for them in Syria, when they tried to take on 12 special forces soldiers and lost 250 Russians dead, because we know how to play this game, and they`re just amateurs.
REID: Let me ask you, then, what is the sort of worst-case scenario, Amy? I mean, if they`re operating there, and they don`t have rules that they have to work -- live by, as most militaries do -- we don`t know about the Russian military?
What`s the worst-case scenario of what they could do?
MACKINNON: Well, we have seen this most starkly in the Central African Republic, where they have been accused by U.N. monitoring groups of just the most gross atrocities, of assaults, of murderers, of kidnapping.
And so, yes, I mean, they operate without regard for human rights or for the laws of war. And so it`s deeply concerning. I mean, the Russian military itself, the Russian proper military, is at the moment bombing civilian sites, and -- as we know, in Russia.
But I think the concerning thing about the Wagner Group is, they`re -- they`re extrajudicial.They don`t formally exist. There`s no accountability for them. And so that raises serious questions about what they may do. And if they do, how do you hold a group like this accountable when the state that they come from claims no knowledge of them?
REID: And what can be done about them, then, Malcolm?
NANCE: Hey, Joy, could I make a quick point?
REID: Please do.
NANCE: Yes, well, I just want to point out that, right now, the city of Kyiv is in a 36-hour lockdown.
And that`s because it`s not Russian Spetsnaz, the special forces, that are trying to infiltrate these cities. It`s guys who are -- came in, deep cover, as civilians, could have been there months ago, who are being called saboteurs that are out marking places, dropping these little cell phone- styled marking devices for Ukraine -- for the Russian artillery.
And the city of Kyiv is on a manhunt for them. And they found the last few groups that had been doing this. These guys are acting like those Hollywood characters in the Jason Bourne movies that are chasing Jason Bourne. And they all view them -- they view themselves as these what we call guns- forward type mercenaries, right?
They`re in it for the big game. They are not actually very good. I saw their operations in Libya. I was in Libya. And then they were funded by the United Arab Emirates and other forces to come and take -- do these operations. And the Libyans handed it to them.
REID: Yes, it is frightening.
I really appreciate you both being here, because we need to understand what`s happening full scale in this region.
Amy Mackinnon, Malcolm Nance, thank you both very much.
That is tonight`s REIDOUT. Thanks for being with us.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.