Summary
Russian troops move to encircle Ukrainian capital. Russian forces try to regain momentum after encountering stiffer-than-expected resistance. U.N. says 2.5 million have fled Ukraine. Russian forces reported abduct civilian mayor.
Transcript
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00]
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, everyone. We begin THE REIDOUT tonight as Putin's army advances towards Kyiv, doubling down on taking the capital by opening up new fronts overnight. Per a senior U.S. defense official, Russian troops could be just ten miles from the city's center. Much of what we're seeing on the ground indicates that the Russian are indeed circling in.
On Thursday, a stunning firefight between Russian and Ukraine forces.
With the region shattered by constant shelling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: There is a constant sound of artillery and shelling going on and you can see the devastation that some of the attacks have already had. We know, according to the locals here, that the Russians are only a few kilometers down the road and this is the constant backdrop.
We're just waiting for victory, for everything to be good again, she says, and trying not to cry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Putin may have miscalculated the Ukrainian resistance but that seems to have only intensified his resolve. Two weeks on, Ukraine is unrecognizable, pummeled by a barrage of shelling, rocket assault and airstrikes.
This is a town east of Kyiv demolished after a missile strike. In the northwest explosions in the city of Lutsk, this is unusual because they had not been striking in western Ukraine. Russia is also attack Dnipro and central Ukraine for the first time. But the homeland reduce to rubble, Ukrainians are running for lives. The U.N. says more than 2.5 million refugees have left the country, making the dangerous journey in freezing temperatures. Many of them forced to separate from love ones who stay behind to fight.
Their faith, even their immediate one, is unknown. Here is refugee in Lviv whose parents remain in the capital.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: And I know this is all uncertain times, but do you have any sort of plan for the next days, weeks, months.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't have plans. I don't know how to make plans because only today we don't have tomorrow now. We don't know what will happened tomorrow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REID: In a video late today, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy said the Russian have abducted the mayor of Melitopol. That is a city in southeastern of Ukraine. Zelenskyy called the mayor's capture a crime against the person as well a crime against Ukraine and democracy itself.
As these crimes escalate, world leaders are desperate to crack the puzzle of Putin's endgame. Meanwhile, Russian disinformation more continues on American shores. Today, Russia accused the U.S. at the United Nations of supporting a nonexistent biological weapons program in Ukraine. According to U.S. ambassador flatly denies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VASILY NEBENZYA, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: On territory of Ukraine, there was a network consisting of least 30 biological laboratories.
The goal is to study is to study the possibility of spreading particularly danger in infections using migratory birds.
LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: I will say this once, Ukraine does not have a biological weapons program.
We're not going to let Russia get away with lying to the world or staining the integrity of the Security Council by using this forum as a venue for legitimizing Putin's violence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: To be clear this claim was - rejected by the majority of U.N. state who warned that Moscow maybe pushing disinformation as a prelude to its own used of such weapon.
And joining me now is former CIA Director John Brennan, Dmytro Gurin, a Ukrainian Parliament Member, and Jack Crosbie a Rolling Stone Correspondent, who has just returned from reporting in Ukraine. I don't even know where to go from here.
I am going to start with you John Brennan, because the misuse and abuse of the United Nation Security Council, to put forward a preposterous claim that the United States is using migratory birds to spread chemical ammunition somehow, this is -- it is at once farcical and stupid and incredibly frightening.
At this point, I am not sure why Russia is allowed to present in the United Nation Security Council. What do you make of this, of all of these, this insane presentation at the U.N. today?
JOHN BRENNAN FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Well, Joy, there's no explanation or rationale for Putin's war against Ukraine. And therefore I think the Russians will continue to make these ludicrous claims that Ukraine had posed a threat to Russia, that Ukraine and the United States are planning to carry out such biological and chemical attacks.
[19:05:06]
And that because they really are defenseless in terms of the explanations about what's going on.
It is very difficult right now to estimate how many Ukrainians and Russians have been killed as a result of Putin's war but I'm sure it's well in excess of 10,000. And so therefore it appears as though Putin is going to continue to double down and he's going to make countercharges against Ukraine, to the west, NATO, the United States again as a way to pass this submission to his people as well as to the world. But I think everybody can see through these Russian lies.
REID: Mr. Gurin, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us tonight. I want to -- and I'm almost apologized for making you have to listen to this, but I want you to hear. This is Russia's ambassador to the United Nations. This is a back and forth between himself and our ambassador to the United States ambassador over something we all can see. We are not fools and idiots. We can see what they're doing. But here he is attempting to have a repartee with the U.N. ambassador over whether or not they're killing civilians. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEBENZYA: We are dismayed by the dirty campaign to blame us for intentional shelling civilian infrastructure. You are accusing us of propaganda, fake, once ignoring a huge number of fakes which are being turned out in Ukraine and in the west.
THOMAS-GREENFIELD: I know you expect me to respond but we're not going to give anymore air time to the lies that you're her hearing today. It's beneath this council and there is only one aggressor here, and that is Russia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
Mr. Gurin, you're an M.P. in Ukraine. I am -- I just need to allow you to respond to the Russian ambassador attempting to claim that the images of horror that we're seeing, the killing of children and shelling of hospitals, the shelling of schools, the crying children, the hungry children and women running for their lives that they are all fakes. Your thoughts?
DMYTRO GURIN, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: I'm from Mariupol. I live there 15 years. My parents are 67, my mother, and my father is 69. Every weekend, I talked with them around an hour but not tomorrow. I haven't heard from them for five days. The only thing I know two days ago they were alive.
There is no 20 degrees at night, there is no electricity, heating, water, gas and mobile network. It's not possible to restore communications because shelling never stops. My school, my university and nursery hospital, building where I grew up, and all and every building around, all of these, this 15 years of my life, are destroyed.
All of this is not a military infrastructure. Day and night, twice per hour, airplane drops a bomb on residential districts of Mariupol and bodies really lay on the street and there are mass graves in the city. My heart is breaking every minute when I think that I'm warm and I have breakfast and my parents live in a basement (INAUDIBLE) an awful water, cut trees, I cleaned as a child and prepare food on an open fire.
All the exits for Mariupol now hardly mined and those who try to escape the city gets killed. Russians say it's not true. But if it's not true, my parents would be with me now. 350,000 people in Mariupol sit in a mouse trap inside minefields and rods, and these people doesn't have food anymore.
This war started two weeks ago, like an ordinary war, army against army and all of the world saw how Ukrainians fought and resisted. And you helped us with weapons sanctions, money, and you can't imagine how grateful we are. But the situation completely change it. Putin decided to, I can beat you on the battle field if you all resist or we'll kill you all.
And last week it's not a war anymore. It's mass murdering. There are more killed civilians last week than soldiers during all the war. Russian prisoners say they have permission to kill civilians from their commands. Refugees from the (INAUDIBLE) Bucha said yesterday, they testified that Russian soldiers kill people for fun.
I just -- I am sending you right now to a channel video published by our colleagues where fighting vehicles shoots at a car of people with disabilities close range. All the humanitarian corridors to Mariupol are blocked, no food, no water, no medicine. And we see clearly that Putin's goal in Mariupol is hunger.
Today, I talk with people -- I addressed people of America, I talked to people of America, the people of strongest country in the world, it's not possible that we all allow one mad maniac to starve 350,000 people because he just wants to. You can't say we didn't know because you know now. And these deaths will be on our hands, and on your hands and with Mr. Biden's hands.
[19:10:02]
All the world are united around the Ukraine now and if we all cannot do it together, what do we can, at all?
And I address people of America, please call your senator, call your congressman, ask them if the blood of Ukrainian people is a threat enough. Ask them why all the strongest nations all together cannot stop the hunger in the middle of Europe. How can we evacuate people from Mariupol if really we cannot, we pray and we will beat rations on the battle field. Please help us save our children and our parents and pray for mine with me.
REID: We are praying with you and it is heartbreaking. And, you know, Jack Crosbie, do we know -- you are a journalist who has been back and forth to Ukraine and seen this firsthand. You are the independent observer that we expect and pray for journalists to be. Number one, do you know any news of this kidnapped mayor, number one? Number two, tell us what you've seen.
JACK CROSBIE, CORRESPONDENT, ROLLING STONE: I don't have any news or information on the kidnapped mayor. I think there are many parts of Ukraine right know that, as described, are communications blackouts where people haven't heard from family members, where people can -- I myself can't reach sources, a driver that I have in Kharkiv hasn't responded to me in a couple days. You know, I just go by. I hope somehow that he sees the messages on WhatsApp but it's impossible to really grapple with that, that there are parts of the country that are completely closed off.
So, I don't have anything new on the mayor. As far as what I've seen, yes, I just want to reiterate what was said. These attacks are not on military infrastructure. In the early days of the war, any kind of violence taking place near urban areas is going to bleed into civilian populations. You know, there are always going to be casualties in war that were not intended. That's not what we're seeing here. That's not what the Russian campaign is now. And that's not what it's been for many days.
And I think the images we've seen out of Mariupol, our of Kharkiv, out of outskirts of Kyiv, out of cities like Volnovakha,out of cities like Irpin, you know, all of these make that extremely clear. And I think the only people in the world that aren't seeing these images are people in Russia, who are being prevented from seeing them by mass censorship by the government there.
REID: John Brennan, I have to say this, you know, my father was -- he's passed away now but he was from the Congo. The United States when they decided Patrice Lumumba wasn't good enough to be the George Washington of the Congo made sure he was quite gone. You look at Iran, when we decided we didn't like Mosaddegh, that was the end of him. The United States decided we didn't want Saddam Hussein. That was the end of him. I think for Americans to look helplessly while we watch these people slaughtered, it feels like we shouldn't be helpless.
You, as somebody who was the head of an agency that has incredible power, incredible reach into the entire world, isn't there something we can do? Because when we wanted to do it and when there were people we thought were not fit to run a country, we did it. And so I think it's hard for Americans to accept that we can't do anything. Your thoughts?
BRENNAN: It's very difficult to accept that thought. We can do some things but President Biden said today, if we were engage military, it would be World War III.
But I must say listening to the Ukrainian parliamentarian, who my heartbreaks for him, his family and all Ukrainians, surely, we're going to be able to put a stop to this at some point. But as he pointed out, there are just too many innocent who are dying at the hands of the mass murderer that Putin is.
And so I think we can really need to work together to try to find some way to stop this Russian war machine from destroying a beautiful country and the people in it. But like you, Joy, I feel helpless but at the same time, I think the Biden administration is trying to thread a needle here to do what they can for Ukraine but without leading to a larger war that could engulf many more countries and lead to much greater devastation.
But until we can stop this, I think the entire world is looking upon Ukraine with great sadness.
[19:15:05]
And so, again, I just hope that we can able to turn this around soon but there is no way that I think Putin is going to change course unless he has force to, by some overriding power.
REID: You know, I think for people in Ukraine, people like Dmytro Gurin, it already is World War III. That's the problem. It's already World War III for them. That's the problem. John Brennan.
GURIN: It's already World War III for you. You just don't understand where is your line? Is it previews upcoming stories and leads to a break. people in Mariupol or is it bomb drops on nursery house in Warsaw. That's your question, or tactical view. And we will see next week all of this so decide where is your line.
REID: Amen. I cannot argue with a thing that you have said, sir. John Brennan, Dmytro Gurin, praying for you and your family and for your country, Jack Crosbie, thank you very much, sir.
Still ahead, on THE REIDOUT, more economic fallout for Russia as the U.S. and its allies announce new sanctions and move to suspend normal trade relations. How will Putin respond?
Plus, as Republicans backpedal like mad to try to shift the blame, a quick reminder of how do Trump and his allies helped to set the stage for this tragic violence that we're seeing today. Ambassador Marie Yovanovich, who found herself in the middle of Trump's scheme to extort a foreign ally, joins me later.
And Chef Jose Andres will tell us how he and his colleagues are managing to serve 150,000 meals to Ukrainian refugees ever day.
THE REIDOUT continues after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:18]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Putin is an aggressor. He is the aggressor. And Putin must pay the price.
He cannot pursue a war that threatens the very foundations, which he's doing, the very foundations of international peace and stability, and then ask for financial help from the international community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: That was President Biden after he called for the U.S. to revoke Russia's most favored nation status, which would downgrade Russia as a trading partner and open the door to damaging new tariffs on Moscow.
Hours later, the Treasury Department unveiled yet another round of sanctions targeting the wife and two children of Putin spokesperson, Dmitry Peskov, as well as another Putin ally and oligarch, 11 members of the Duma, and 10 members of Russia's second largest bank, VTB.
On Thursday, a cornered Putin endorsed a plan to nationalized foreign-owned businesses in the wake of their mass exodus. Since the start of the invasion, the Russian ruble has lost roughly 40 percent of its value. And experts warn that Russia will eventually run short of imported food, clothing and other goods.
The cracks are starting to show. The Daily Beast is reporting that two well-known pro Putin TV pundits appeared on an unquestionably propagandistic show and acknowledged the impact of the sanctions. They called for a stop to military action.
In incredibly blunt terms, one of them said the invasion "threatens the change of public opinion in Russia, the destabilization of our power structures, with the possibility of a full destabilization of the country, and a civil war."
Joining me now is Russian opposition politician Vladimir Kara-Murza.
Thank you so much for being here.
It has been many, many years that we have been having conversations about - - about Russia and about the ways in which the United States has tried to deal with Russia, multiple U.S. administrations going back to George W. Bush to President Obama. George W. Bush looked into Putin's eyes and said he saw his soul. President Obama tried the reset button. And then Trump obviously tried best friends, right, that strategy.
None of it's worked. Does it -- what do you make of the current administration's attempts to try to push Putin back? Because it seems that friendship, nothing helps, nothing has changed him.
VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA, RUSSIAN OPPOSITION POLITICIAN: And we did talk about it for years.
And what's really enraging is that people have warned about this.
REID: Yes.
KARA-MURZA: Russians have warned about this.
Boris Nemtsov, who was a Russian opposition leader who was murdered on Putin's order seven years ago, was so outspoken and so vocal about it. And the thing is, we know from history how the appeasement of dictators ends. It always ends the same way. It's happened so many times.
And Putin started initially with going after Russian civil society and Russian independent media and his political opponents. Then he turned to aggression outwards. I mean, this is, of course, not his first war of aggression, right? There was Georgia. There was Syria. There was the initial attack on Ukraine back in 2014.
And, every time, the West swallowed it. And, every time, the leaders of the world's democracies continued to shake his hand and invite him to international summits, and, as you just quoted, look into his eyes, and declare resets and so on. And this is where we are today, with a large- scale land war in the middle of Europe, with war crimes committed in the middle of Europe.
You saw the bombing of maternity ward, for God's sake, a couple of days ago. This is heartbreaking. And what's even more heartbreaking is the fact that this was avoidable.
And I have to say that, if one-tenth of those sanctions that were imposed over the past two weeks had been imposed a decade ago, as we were calling for those high-level, personal, targeted sanctions, not against the Russian people, but against those oligarchs and kleptocrats that oil the wheels of the Putin machine, and that have all their holdings in Western banks and Western financial system, had those sanctions been put in place a decade ago, we would not be here today.
REID: And the thing is, I mean, we don't have to speculate about what Putin is capable of. He did it to Aleppo, leveled Aleppo. He did it in Chechnya, just brutal, brutality.
KARA-MURZA: That's how he came to power.
REID: Exactly.
And the idea that -- I don't know. I do wonder if the ability of -- including Western media, let's be honest, and Western governments to look away at those conflicts made him feel, OK, I can get away with brutality.
I am still surprised that he thought in his mind that he could get away with doing this to Ukraine. It seemed insane to think that he would do it, but he's done it.
KARA-MURZA: But, on the other hand, if you get away with everything else, if you can imprison opponents, you can murder opponents, you can rig elections, you can muzzle independent media, and nobody cares, you can then go attacking other countries, and nobody really cares, I mean, beyond some lip service, right, you feel as if you can do anything.
And this is where he led us. But, as they say, better late than never.
REID: Sure.
KARA-MURZA: And, finally, we are seeing some firm action against the oligarchs, against those high-ranking abusers, some of them you just listed, the new sanctions announced just today.
[19:25:07]
We are also, very importantly, finally seeing Western leaders calling a spade a spade.
REID: Yes.
KARA-MURZA: And for such a long time, the West pretended that Vladimir Putin was a legitimate and democratically elected leader. Obviously, he isn't. He's never been.
(CROSSTALK)
KARA-MURZA: But for so many years, the West pretended he was.
And it's important to see that change as well. There's a really important congressional initiative here in Washington. It's called House Resolution 806, a bipartisan initiative introduced by Republicans and Democrats together, which essentially provides for de-recognition of Vladimir Putin by the United States, in the same way as the U.S., for example, refuses to recognize Maduro in Venezuela or Lukashenko in Belarus.
And Putin is just as illegitimate...
REID: Absolutely.
KARA-MURZA: ... is just as authoritarian as they are.
And so it's important that people are finally beginning to say that two plus two equals four.
REID: Will bankrupting Russia -- because we were just talking about this in the break before we started on -- I mean, he has destroyed two countries. He is destroying Ukraine, but he is destroying Russia.
The fact that you do have people that are on a really pro-Putin sort of network saying, oh, this is a terrible idea, that ordinary Russians can't - - I mean, it isn't the biggest deal in the world -- can't go to McDonald's, can't get Netflix, but that they're going to feel it economically, does this wind up ultimately destabilizing him and taking him potentially out of power?
Is that possible?
KARA-MURZA: There's no question about it. Of course.
And if you look at the history of Russia over the past 200 years, you will see that it's very often failed wars of aggression that lead to political change at home. This is how it was after the Crimean War, after the Russo- Japanese War, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and so on. This has happened time and time again.
And you're absolutely right. In the last two weeks, the Putin regime undid 30 years of economic progress, since the end of the Soviet Union.
REID: That's right.
KARA-MURZA: The last time I saw empty food shelves in Moscow, until last week, was when I was a child in a Soviet Union. I saw that again a few days ago.
And we are seeing all those leading companies leave. We are seeing the -- sort of the banks ceasing operations, people no longer able us to use their credit cards. People are losing their jobs. There will be economic calamity as a result of this. And there's nobody to blame for this except Vladimir Putin.
And, yes, there is actually growing understanding among many people in Russia that this is going to be Putin's last war. This is yet another one in a long list of military adventures that he's engaged in.
REID: Yes.
KARA-MURZA: But you know what? He's really overstepped this time.
Even for those Western appeasers and Western enablers, who have been willing to turn a blind eye for such a long time, this is too much. This is a step too far. And so, yes, I do believe that this will be the last war the Putin regime conducts.
The question, of course, is the price. And I don't mean monetarily. I mean in terms of human lives, and the time.
REID: Yes.
KARA-MURZA: It doesn't mean it's going to happen tomorrow.
REID: That's right.
KARA-MURZA: But you know what? I think, today, we're seeing the end of the Putin regime much more clearly than we did even a month ago.
REID: You know what? I will take it.
At this point, it's so depressing and so awful, that, if this is the end of him, and people like yourself can go back to a free Russia -- a free Russia and a free Ukraine, that's a pretty damn good deal. I will take it.
KARA-MURZA: And that's going to happen.
REID: And, hopefully, it'll be sooner, rather than later, before too many more people die or wind up ex -- as refugees.
KARA-MURZA: Absolutely.
REID: Thank you so much, my friend.
KARA-MURZA: Thank you.
REID: Thank you.
KARA-MURZA: Thank you. Always...
(CROSSTALK)
REID: And we haven't been able to see one another and shake hands for a long time, so it is just good to see you.
KARA-MURZA: Good to see you too.
REID: Cheers.
KARA-MURZA: Thank you.
REID: All right, Vladimir Kara-Murza, thank you.
Up next: Trump and his Republican allies would like you to forget the role that they played in setting the stage for Putin's war, but we are not going to let them.
Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch, who was fired by and then testified against Donald Trump, joins me next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:33:12]
REID: There are two things that we have learned about Donald Trump from his campaign and his administration.
First is his strange and solicitous admiration for Vladimir Putin, which is well documented. And second is his apparent obsession with weakening Ukraine. Starting back in 2016, we saw the Trump campaign strip the Republican platform of a provision supporting military aid for Ukraine. Trump's cronies then pushed for a so-called peace plan that would have dismembered Ukraine's territory and lifted sanctions on Russia.
Then, Trump spread the laughable conspiracy theory that it was Ukraine, and not Russia, that interfered in the 2016 election. And last, but certainly not least, Trump used his office to extort Ukraine's government, withholding congressionally approved military assistance in exchange for a hit job on his political opponent, Joe Biden.
Put simply, Trump held Ukraine's security hostage for his own personal gain. He treated President Zelenskyy not as an ally, but as a pawn in his bid for reelection. And it got him impeached for the first time back in 2019.
Now a key witness in that impeachment, who was herself a victim of Trump's scheme, is speaking out. In her timely new memoir, "Lessons from the Edge," former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch details her 33 years in the Foreign Service, including the grueling smear campaign that prompted her firing at the hands of Donald Trump.
That episode was one of the many indignities that Trump brought upon the United States, which no doubt weakened Ukraine and emboldened Russia.
And, Ambassador Yovanovitch said at the time, Ukraine deserved our unwavering support.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIE YOVANOVITCH, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Supporting Ukraine is the right thing to do. It's also the smart thing to do.
If Russia prevails, and Ukraine falls to Russian dominion, we can expect to see other attempts by Russia to expand its territory and its influence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:35:01]
REID: Former Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch joins me now.
Thank you so much for being here.
YOVANOVITCH: It's such a pleasure.
REID: So, and I wonder, as you look at particularly the way things that are -- the things that are happening now to Ukraine, were you ever able to wrap your mind around why Donald Trump himself and his administration were so against Ukraine, why they seemed to have it in for Ukraine?
Were you able to ever to sort of get your mind around why that was?
YOVANOVITCH: Not really, to tell you the truth, because it was -- it was all so bizarre.
I think that he, frankly, didn't really think that much about Ukraine, but he thought a lot about Russia as a great power. And he sort of accepted, I think, Putin's view of Ukraine is not really being a real country. And if it was a country, it was sort of a weaker country, and, therefore, not worthy of his of his attention.
REID: Yes.
And as people will remember your name as the person who was associated with the phrase "She's going to go through some things," because they wanted to fire you and essentially give your portfolio to Rudy Giuliani, and, like, sort of make him in charge of policy, at the time, did you see what he was doing as part of sort of a bigger picture of a big pro-Russia move on the part of the United States?
Did you anticipate things like the idea that he wanted to get out of NATO? Was any of that in your mind at that time?
YOVANOVITCH: So, what was happening to me was, it was all around me, and I could feel that something was going on, but -- because people were telling me, especially Ukrainians, senior level Ukrainians: You better watch out, because there are people here and there are people in the United States that are working together to get you removed.
And then I would call back to the State Department say: What's going on? Is there a problem with what I'm doing?
No, no, everything's fine.
And so I figured it's just that low level kind of rumor that is always kind of circling any capital, right? So I wasn't completely aware of all of the things going on around me.
But some of the other things that you said, President Trump's well-known and outspoken feelings about NATO, I mean, it was quite clear that he felt that NATO was not a good institution, that the other allies were taking the U.S. for a ride, and that we were supporting them in ways that we shouldn't be.
And I think -- I have heard people close to the president from his administration saying that, if he had had a second term, he would no doubt have pulled the U.S. out of NATO.
REID: Yes.
And I wonder about that too, because you have a lot of sort of the meme -- and I know that you were on with Nicolle, with Nicolle Wallace. I love her. And, of course, I watch the show. I watch her show every day.
And you -- and she did ask you this question that everyone is sort of asking and sort of throwing out there: Would this have happened if Donald Trump had been president?
And my kind of thought on it is that, well, we wouldn't have had to, right? I mean, he would have -- or that Putin wouldn't have had to.
YOVANOVITCH: Yes.
REID: Because Trump would have given him Ukraine.
Is that your sense of it as well?
YOVANOVITCH: Well, I think he was -- I think that President Putin was getting what he needed out of the Trump administration.
So, we were, I think, I think, on a path to leaving NATO. So, that -- the - - NATO without the United States is probably not a security alliance that is going to last very long.
REID: Yes.
YOVANOVITCH: And so I think that would have addressed many of Putin's alleged concerns.
REID: Right.
YOVANOVITCH: I think that what we're seeing now is about -- in a certain sense, it's about Russia's security, but it is about many other things, including Putin's obsession with Ukraine, his belief that it's not a real country, his desire to recreate the Russian empire, the Soviet Union, his need to sort of establish himself in a positive way before the 2024 presidential elections.
It's about a lot of things.
REID: Yes.
YOVANOVITCH: And it's also about, in my opinion, tearing down the international order that has served us so well since World War II.
REID: Absolutely, which seemed -- for some reason, Trump seemed to want to do as well.
Take the measure -- I know that you did not crisscross with the Zelenskyy administration, I don't believe. I think maybe just before -- after you left is when Zelenskyy came in.
But take the measure for us of this man.
YOVANOVITCH: Yes.
REID: Because this -- I am quite sure this is not what he expected when he went from being a comedian playing a sort of pretend president on -- in a comedy show to being president.
And then the first thing that happens to him is he -- an attempted bribery by the United States president. There are these great pictures of him sort of sitting there looking like, my God, I'm sitting next to this moron, and what am I supposed to do about it?
(LAUGHTER)
REID: And now this.
Take the measure for us of this man.
YOVANOVITCH: Yes.
So, I did meet Zelenskyy a number of times when he was running for president, but, by the time he became president, I was no longer in Ukraine. And, obviously, he's a really funny guy. He's very talented. And he also is the architect of a huge media empire. And he's very proud of the fact that his talent created that, and the executive skills that produced that empire.
[19:40:00]
I think that Zelenskyy, as president, ran into many of the same challenges that some of his predecessors ran into. But I think he was trying, and he was making some progress, not as much progress, perhaps, as others may have wanted.
But with this -- with the invasion of Russia -- or Russia's invasion of Ukraine, I think that he has grown into the moment. I think you are seeing somebody whose masterful communication skills have really come to the fore.
REID: Yes.
YOVANOVITCH: And he has inspired his countrymen, and he's inspired the world.
REID: Yes.
YOVANOVITCH: It is remarkable.
And so I think he has really met the moment in a way that I wouldn't necessarily have expected, but that I really admire.
REID: Yes.
It's the difference between someone who is sort of naturally funny and interesting and can do comedy, and somebody like Trump, who people wrote his lines for him, and it's not natural.
Let's go to just my final question to you, which is this. When you're a diplomat and you deal with a country, you sort of -- you obviously develop an affinity for it.
YOVANOVITCH: Yes.
REID: I wonder what your thoughts are for Ukraine this evening.
YOVANOVITCH: It is -- it is just horrifying to think that everybody I know and a country of 44 million people has been brought to this by the evildoing -- I mean, there's no other word for it -- of one man, that not only are they being targeted mercilessly, women, children, men, not only that, but perhaps there might be a chem-bio attack...
REID: Yes.
YOVANOVITCH: ... or -- and people are even talking about nuclear strikes, because President Putin is using the status of Russia as a nuclear power so loosely.
It is really horrifying. And I think that it's important that we not allow Putin to set the conditions for this war. We need to think about how we can continue to support Ukraine and how we can do it in the smartest way possible, but also the strongest way possible, so that we deter Putin.
REID: Marie Yovanovitch, thank you so much for your service to the United States. Thank you for being here and being my guest.
And I wish you well. And I cannot wait to read your book.
YOVANOVITCH: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
(CROSSTALK)
REID: Cheers.
YOVANOVITCH: Yes, likewise.
REID: Cheers. Thank you.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:46:23]
REID: The U.N. now says that more than 2.5 million Ukrainians have fled their country. The majority have crossed into Poland.
And the influx of vulnerable women and children brings with it concerns about keeping them safe in their new environment.
With me now as NBC News correspondent Ellison Barber in Krakow, Poland -- Ellison.
ELLISON BARBER, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Joy, as more and more people are forced to flee their homes in Ukraine, children are having to sleep on the ground at train stations in bigger cities in Poland, because they're struggling to keep up with the demand.
What we are hearing from local officials and volunteer groups is that there needs to be more organization from the top down, the federal government down. They need more help to make sure people are getting the resources necessary to survive this difficult time in their lives.
They say, right now, most of the efforts, it's a volunteer, ad hoc effort when it comes to aid. They say that's not sustainable. Plus, when it comes to such vulnerable people, women and children, they say shelter options, they have to be vetted. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBER: From border crossings to city centers like Krakow, we have seen a lot of volunteer organizations stepping up, trying to help refugees.
How much coordination has there been between groups like yours and the Polish government?
KAROL WILCZYNSKI, FOUNDER, SALAM LAB: Unfortunately, I would say the Polish government stepped back, so they are doing a lot of P.R. job. They are going to the border and showing that they are doing some stuff. But they are not visible here in Krakow.
Right now, I can manage -- I don't know -- like, I can give safe aid to 1,000 people per day. But we have like 120,000 people in Krakow right now, yes? So I cannot create the system. I'm not a prime minister of -- or president of European Union. I'm just a small NGO here in Krakow.
We need money. We need people who will organize this relocation process. If you know any politicians from your own hometown or your state, talk with them. If you can accept like one plane, we can organize it from Krakow to your state.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Wow. Ellison Barber, thank you.
Coming up next, Jose Andres joins us from Ukraine with an update on his inspiring efforts to help feed refugees.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:52:57]
REID: As Ukraine's humanitarian crisis grows, world-renowned chef and humanitarian Jose Andres is once again heeding the call for help, providing food and comfort to those in need.
His nonprofit, World Central Kitchen, was on the ground within hours of Putin's invasion, setting up mobile kitchens at border crossings to feed weary refugees. And now, inside Ukraine, he's partnering with local restaurants and caterers to get food and supplies to cities under siege. They have served hundreds of thousands of meals so far, averaging as many as 150,000 a day.
And chef Jose Andres joins me now.
It is such a privilege to be able to talk with you.
And I just want to hear you talk. I have got here on my notes that you -- World Central Kitchen has set up kitchens in Poland and Romania, Moldova, Hungary, Slovakia.
What have you seen? What are people telling you? Tell me what you have seen.
JOSE ANDRES, FOUNDER, WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN: Well, we have seen the images of people, Ukrainians and many other nationalities, use -- taking on a car, getting on a bus, getting on a train, trying to escape the mayhem created by this war that doesn't make any sense.
So, the stories -- let's put it this way. Every person, every woman, every children, every one of them have a story. When you see a child, that, as you're giving him a plate of hot food, the only thing he's telling you is: "My dad stayed behind."
When you see on that same border that people are escaping war and mayhem, you see young Ukrainians and other nationalities, including Americans, that they're crossing into Ukraine to join this defense of the country.
And the stories keep multiplying themselves. I have seen people giving the best of them. Like when I arrived in Poland, I will say that every single Polish in the border, firefighters, retired military, students, teachers, they all did whatever had to happen to provide relief to these Ukrainians coming into their country.
[19:55:20]
Inside Ukraine, where I am right now, more of the same. It's like, in the worst of moments, the best of humanity show up. Everyone here that I see, they want only one thing, to take care of those women, of those children that are suffering the horrors of a war that doesn't make sense in the 21st century.
REID: Yes, and thank you for pointing out.
I mean, this is a giant, enormous movement of women and children from their homes, and sometimes with just one little bag or one little backpack. And the idea of children not knowing where they're going to sleep, what they're going to eat is so heartbreaking.
When you think about the fact that you have done this all over the world, you have done this in wartime situations, but, in this case, is it different that it is really kids, you're feeding kids for the most part, and their moms?
ANDRES: Obviously, I don't have the exact data, but, at one moment, it seems that there's one child for each adult.
It's a massive, a massive movement of children. We have seen images of children alone with a phone number written in the back of their hand, so if somebody finds them, to call their family to tell them he is fine. Imagine what their families have to go through to put sometimes children alone into those buses or those trains.
And this is what is really heartbreaking. We saw the bombing of a hospital in the south, if I'm right, in Mariupol, where many children die. Again, I hope everybody's going to be speaking up, not only the citizens of Europe, but the citizens of the world, saying...
REID: Yes.
ANDRES: ... there is no way that we can go through this war without speaking very loudly, that we cannot allow Putin to get away with what is a massacre of biblical proportions.
So, really, an organization like ours, I wish I didn't have to activate. We're not the only people feeding here.
REID: Yes.
ANDRES: As I'm telling you, it's churches, everybody that can do something is doing something.
But World Central Kitchen is just trying to bring some organization through these four or five countries that we are right now feeding, while welcoming Ukrainians into to the safety of those countries, or while feeling, as we are doing right now, inside Ukraine in multiple cities.
REID: Yes.
And can I ask you, just logistically -- you don't tell us every bit of it. But is it getting more difficult to actually get the food to be able to cook, given the fact that Russia is indiscriminately bombarding everything, everything, civilian infrastructure? Is it getting harder and harder to actually physically get the food to the people?
ANDRES: Well, obviously, here in Lviv, we are, what I would say, far away from the front lines.
But we are probably 400, 450 kilometers away, which seems far. But it's right there. These last 24 hours, we saw during the evening and into the day that you will hear the sirens because it seems a missile or an attack was happening somewhere.
At the end, we had during the day today two attacks, I would not say very close to Lviv, but this is the attacks that they have been closer to the west, closer to the Polish border. And with that means the door is touching in almost every city, this keeps going like this.
So, food obviously is an issue. We're trying to preposition food in places like Odessa. We're trying to preposition, allow food in places like Lviv, trying to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. And, obviously, we have partners in places in Kyiv, restaurants that, from the very beginning, they have been feeding women and children and elderly.
But they are scared and they are waiting in shelters or in tunnels or in basements, when this shelling never stopped. Obviously, in places like Kyiv, even still, it's -- food keeps coming with, I guess, the help of military and others.
In those cities that they are surrounded by the Russians, food is getting very difficult. We see what's happening in Mariupol. We see other cities that they have been for days already, for weeks, surrounded by the Russian troops, and where, at the end, who suffers is always the same, the men and women, very often the voiceless, very often the poor.
REID: Yes.
ANDRES: And we cannot allow this.
Let's hope that food not one of the problems people are going to be going through.
REID: Yes.
ANDRES: And, at the very least, people, as they're leaving, we're trying to make sure that we go along the way until they get to safety to make sure that, in every stop, in every moment, food and water and all the things will be available to them without any effort.
REID: God bless you, sir. There -- people aspire to be a great man. Even better is to be a good man. You, sir, are both.
Jose Andres, thank you. Thank you.
And that is tonight's REIDOUT.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.