Summary
Civilian tragedy continues to unfold as Vladimir Putin`s war in Ukraine enters its third week. The European Union and United Kingdom condemned the attack as a war crime. Rep. Madison Cawthorn calling President Zelenskyy a "thug." About 44,000 people have crossed the Russian border into Finland it seems people are figuring it out, by protesting or just leaving.
Transcript
ARI MELBER, MSNBC THE BEAT HOST: table. One of our analysts referred to that earlier tonight in our reporting. There you see it directly under oath and it is part of what the U.S. and, of course, those in Ukraine may be bracing for. Thanks for sticking with our coverage. THE READOUT with Joy Reid continues our MSNBC coverage of the war in Ukraine right now.
JOY REID, MSNBC THE REIDOUT HOST: Good evening, everyone. We begin the readout tonight with the civilian tragedy that continues to unfold as Vladimir Putin`s war in Ukraine enters its third week today. Well the situation`s still dire in the port city of Mariupol. Emergency workers continue to rescue civilians there today as Russian forces launch a fresh assault and residents remain trapped, encircled by Russia troops.
Ukrainians - the Ukrainian Armed Forces released a video showing devastation in residential areas. The city is now blocked from evacuations and humanitarian aid.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): I have nine kids. Pray for Mariupol. We are being bombed from all directions. Pray for mothers with children, please. It`s very hard here. We have no water, no food, no electricity. It`s so scary getting through this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: It comes a day after Russia`s horrific attack on a maternity hospital and its aftermath as reported by Sky News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no ceremony for those who`ve lost their lives in Mariupol. Just a long trench where they`re placed next to those who`ve suffered the same fate, many of them civilians. Three people, including a child, died in yesterday`s attack on the city`s maternity and children`s hospital. 17 were injured. Anger is mounting with the growing civilian casualties, but it`s set against Russia denial. The bombing here is fake news says the Kremlin, that there were no women or children at the hospital. Just radicals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Well as you can clearly see with your very own two eyes that Russian claim is a lie. Even as today Russia`s Foreign Minister claimed that it was a legitimate target. The European Union and United Kingdom condemned the attack as a war crime while today in Poland Vice President Kamala Harris stopped just short of directly accusing Russia of war crimes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Absolutely there should be an investigation, and we should all be watching, and I have no question the eyes of the world are on this war and what Russia has done in terms of this aggression and these atrocities. No doubt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: And while the world watches, the extent of Russia`s atrocities are already clear. Ukraine`s Foreign Minister shared a video of the reality of war, and I should warn you the following image is graphic.
Now we don`t know the child`s condition or where in Ukraine it was filmed, but this is how life for Ukraine civilians in the face of Russia`s lies and aggression is playing out.
The humanitarian crisis continues to grow by the hour. The U.N. now says that more than 2.3 million people have fled Ukraine. Another estimated two million are displaced within the country. In Europe (ph), a steady stream of civilians continue to flee on foot with assistance from Ukrainian Forces now moving into the city.
And families fled towns and villages north of Kyiv during a brief ceasefire as Russian forces pressed their advance towards the capital on Thursday. In Odessa, Ukrainian Forces prepared for the worst, shielding the city in preparation for shelling there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every war is a disaster, and it is a disaster for our country. And we hope it is going to end in the closest future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Today top diplomats from Ukraine and Russia continued peace talks, making no progress. While Ukrainian soldiers continue to fight on the outskirts of Kyiv, Sky News`s Alex Crawford visited a hospital dealing with its new normal, and some of these images I should warn you are graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEX CRAWFORD, SKY NEWS SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: They arrived stuffed into car boots, and on the backseats they`re taking some terrible hits trying to stop the Russian troops entering the Ukrainian capital, laid out on already blood-soaked stretchers. The soldiers have just been shelled on a frontline which is creeping ever closer to Kyiv. And it`s the nearest hospital now entirely turned over to dealing with the war wounded.
These aren`t army medics. They`re the towns doctors and nurses who two weeks ago were dealing with births and bone breaks. Now they`re plunged into a new world, spent trying to save the lives of soldiers and civilians torn apart by bombs and bullets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s World War III.
CRAWFORD: It`s World War III.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:05:00]
REID: Joining me now from Lviv, Ukraine is NBC News Correspondent Cal Perry. You know, it is hard to believe that I even have to say this, Cal, because we can see. We are watching this unfold, horrific, you know, atrocities being committed by Russia troops, by Russian war planes, and we can see what a hospital is. We can see what a civilian target is. It`s hard to believe that they are trying to deny it, but tell me what you`re seeing, what you`re experiencing where you are.
CAL PERRY, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: And harder to believe that we`re sometimes seeing this stuff on like a two or three day delay because that`s how long it`s taking cameras to get to these places. Mariupol continues to be under a siege. We`re starting to see some numbers from the Deputy Mayor. At least 1,200 civilians there dead, though he says the number is more likely going to be three or four times that.
He reports that there are 400,000 civilians remaining in that city. He calls them Russian hostages. He says there have been six attempts to get people out, and in each of those cases the Russian military has targeted civilians as they`ve fled. So the north in Kharkiv, again, to your point we`re finally starting to see that city. It is blacked out 24 hours a day, and the reporting that we have received yesterday, we can now confirm which is there are bodies in the streets. Not just civilians but Russia soldiers who appear to be taking heavy losses in that city.
Diplomatically failed peace talks today in Turkey but the IAEA arriving on the scene because they`re concerned about two nuclear sites in particular - Zaporizhzhia Power Plant, which was under fire last week, and the site in Chernobyl. It looks as though Ukrainian engineers are going to get to that site in Chernobyl. At lease the Russians say they will allow Ukrainian engineers onto that site to reconnect the power at Chernobyl. It is complete surreal that we`re getting Chernobyl updates, but that`s where we are on that.
And then finally the most I think alarming news for civilians across this country today, we heard from the Ukrainian President who is now addressing this Russian narrative that the Americans and the Ukrainians have secret biological sites here in Ukraine, and we`ve heard very, very frightening things from the White House saying that people should prepare themselves for a possible chemical weapons attack that is a false flag attack. We`re finally starting to hear that from Ukrainian officials as well, Joy.
REID: Horrific. Cal Perry, thank you very much. Stay safe. I want to bring in Maksym Borodin, a City Council Member in Mariupol, Ukraine; and Evelyn Farkas, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Russia, Ukraine, and Eurasia.
Let me start with you, Mr. Borodin. These absolute lies are shocking when we can actually see the truth, and we just heard our reporter, Cal Perry, describe the cities in which Russian troops are operating as essentially hostage situation. Tell me what is happening in Mariupol right now.
MAKSYM BORODIN, MARIUPOL CITY COUNCIL MEMBER: Mariupol today situation is catastrophic because in our reality, Putin`s men, Putin`s soldiers are taking hostages all of my city, my home city. People don`t have electricity, don`t have heat, and it`s frost (ph) on the streets don`t have enough food and no water.
And all these promises of green corridors is standard tactics for Putin. They say for green corridors, but they start to shoot people. So - and to the yesterday situation and today when they directly bombing the center of the city where there is no some objects we - no army at all, they directly bombing the hospitals. It`s near my home.
And from the fort (ph) I have from Mariupol, my city is totally destructed, I mean, helated (ph), and it`s not human. And a problem not only with Putin. Problem his propaganda TV, he makes people of Russia believe that all we show reality from Mariupol and other cities is what they call it fake. They don`t believe their own videos (ph). They believe their own TV, and it`s horrible.
REID: The words - the word out of the Kremlin is that the only way that they plan to stop this horror is a set of demands, Mr. Borodin, that include that Ukraine stop fighting essentially, that Ukraine change its constitution to enshrine neutrality and meaning they will never want to join NATO, acknowledge Crimea as Russian territory, and recognize these two sort of separatist republics as independent. Is that something that you can ever imagine your leaders, your governed doing?
[19:10:00]
BORODIN: It`s unbelievable, and our leaders - any presidents of Ukraine or for Ukraine can`t get this scenes because they want Mariupol to be the part of how they call it DPR (ph). And Crimea is be always Ukrainian. So as I understand it, we can`t take this proposition from them. And they try - they killed not soldiers - soldiers. They killed civilians, and they use brutally un-human methods for this.
And if our American partners and European partners don`t get help - real help with anti-plane systems and not get Ukraine jet planes, all the world continue to see how Putin totally destroyed Ukraine. And he don`t stop on Ukraine. Believe me. He only understands the power like in Syria when he gets his group of men, special training, gets shots from American Army. He do nothing because -
REID: Yes.
BORODIN: -- he afraid. He only understands the power. Nothing else.
REID: Let me bring you in, Evelyn. Let me play the Director of National Intelligence, Avril Haines, and she`s made it very clear that whatever it is, whatever brutality Putin unleashes, he`s never going to be able to subdue Ukraine. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AVRIL HAINES, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: If they pursue the maximalist approach we judge it will be especially challenging for the Russians to hold and control Ukrainian territory and install a sustainable pro-Russian regime to Kyiv in the face of what we assess is likely to be a persistent and significant insurgency.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: That seems obvious. I`m not a military expert. Why then continue this destruction and these lies to try to say that a town like Mariupol when you`ve bombed a hospital where women are supposed to be able to give birth and made that hospital unusable and you`re killing children, why continue? They are never going to subdue Ukraine.
EVELYN FARKAS, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR RUSSIA, UKRAINE, AND EURASIA: Well Joy, they`ve taken the wrong lessons from other theaters if you will where they`ve used these methods. So in 1999 when Putin came to power he did the same thing in Grozny, in Chechnya which is part of the Russian Federation, and they leveled the Chechnya and then he had his strong arm - you know, his strong man in there paid a lot of money to rebuild it, and it`s working for him.
In Syria, same thing. For Bashar al-Assad Russia was the bad guy raining down bombs on civilians, on hospitals in 2015 on a U.N. convoy, and look who`s in charge in Syria. It`s Assad, and all the refugees the Russians managed to basically squeeze them out of town and towns and cities all the way up north. Now they`re in a pocket in Idlib. So Putin thinks he`s going to eventually have his way here. It`s sick.
REID: But I guess the answer then - I will go back to you then, Mr. Borodin, and give you the last word here. Let`s - I mean, even if there have been images of at least one city in Ukraine where you now see the sort of Russian secret police or his sort of specialized police force patrolling and the city`s otherwise empty. People are terrified to even protest. Even if he were to do that to Mariupol is there some point at which the people in your town and in your country will ever submit to being a part of the Russian`s fear of influence?
BORODIN: We never submit this situation because our country is Ukraine, and we don`t want any Russia or any other country in Ukraine.
REID: I think that has been made very, very clear. Please stay safe. Thank you, Maksym Borodin. Thank you for your time. Evelyn Farkas, thank you so much. Really appreciate you both. Still ahead on THE REIDOUT, a new iron curtain descends on Russia as Putin`s Kremlin ramps up its antagonistic rhetoric while stifling internal dissent. Plus the British Prime Minister raises questions about Putin using chemical weapons in Ukraine. And later pay attention to the anti-Ukraine rhetoric coming out of some of the right. Take this, Jim (ph).
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MADISON CAWTHORN (R), NORTH CAROLINA: Remember that Zelenskyy is a thug. Remember that the Ukrainian government is incredibly corrupt and it is incredibly evil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Well Madison must be watching a different war than the rest of us are or maybe just watching too much Tuckams (ph). THE REIDOUT continues after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:18:43]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BURNS, CIA DIRECTOR: President Putin has worked methodically over the last two decades to turn Russian society into a kind of propaganda bubble. I don`t believe he can wall off indefinitely Russians from the truth, especially as realities begin to puncture that bubble.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: It isn`t just Ukrainians fleeing. Russians are leaving their own homeland before the iron curtain fully descends on Russia due to Putin`s war. Here`s a shopping mall in Moscow. Stores shuddered due to historic sanctions, but it isn`t only about the economic hit. The Kremlin is escalating its crackdown on dissent. More than 13,000 anti-war protestors have been arrested and spreading quote, "fake news" - sound familiar? Or even describing the Ukraine invasion as a war is now a crime punishable by 15 years in prison.
Joining me now is Julia Ioffe, Founding Partner and Washington Correspondent for Puck News. Thank you very much for being here, Julia. You know, you`ve written a piece, which I have here, which is called "Inside Russia`s Media Black Hole". How are they sort of manufacturing consent for this war?
JULIA IOFFE, PUCK NEWS WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well they`re basically shutting their population off completely form the reality of this war. You know, now that anything other than the official line on what`s happening in the war is branded fake news and is punishable by up to 15 years in jail most publications are scared to publish anything.
[19:20:13]
And what was left of the independent media has been shut down. And, basically, hundreds of journalists have fled Russia. So, what Russians are seeing of this war is not what we`re seeing.
They think -- or they`re being told that the war is just in the Donbass, that there are very minimal casualties on the Russian side, that the Russian side is being incredibly generous and careful with the civilians, that Ukrainian civilians are greeting them as liberators, that this is not a war against the Ukrainian people, but against the Nazis who have seized control over them, with pressure from the U.S.
Of course, none of this is true, but that`s what Russians are being told.
REID: Yes.
IOFFE: And there`s no outs -- no other narrative.
REID: Yes.
IOFFE: So, most Russians support the war.
REID: And yet -- but more than 13,000 have protested and gotten arrested. So people are getting real information.
And you`re -- you have reported, you were tweeting out a back in the USSR sort of tweet today, saying that you have heard sent from several friends there are now limits in Moscow grocery stores on how many items a person can buy at a time. You texted "back in the USSR."
People allegedly are fleeing to Finland. About 44,000 people crossed the Russian border into Finland in February, up from 27,000 the same month last year. It seems to me that some people are figuring it out and either protesting or actually leaving.
IOFFE: Well, the thing is, this has not been a totalitarian country this whole time. It was an authoritarian country. And it was very plugged into the world.
And there was a very educated class of people, especially in the big cities, who traveled a lot, who spoke other languages. There was an independent media. It was small and marginalized and eking out an existence, but it existed. And people were able to access other news sources from abroad.
Now that`s all gone, unless you go through the extra effort of using a VPN to mask your location in Russia, so that you can access these foreign sources of information. But, again, these groups are -- these are people who -- it`s kind of like in the U.S., the people, let`s say with Trump, people who are going to like Trump no matter what, and people who are going to dislike Trump no matter what.
And then if there`s -- let`s say there`s a war, people are going to have kind of preset ideas about it and attitudes toward it.
REID: Yes.
IOFFE: So, these two groups, people have -- were in existence before this.
Now there`s just -- really just a crack -- a really hardcore crackdown that we haven`t seen the likes of before.
REID: You know, what`s interesting is that I -- it feels like what you`re going to start happening -- see happening is an economic drain that is sort of plunging Russia kind of into almost sort of an Afghanistan state, where there`s just nothing there.
Economically, they`re being stripped. Even Goldman Sachs has gotten out. And now you have Russia, the Kremlin, threatening to seize the assets of companies that are leaving, seize their airline jets, seize $10 billion worth of assets.
OK, seize it and do what with it? The ruble is in shambles. Their economy is cratering. Seize it and so what?
IOFFE: That`s the question.
I saw some Russian friends joking today that, what are you going to do? You`re going to take over an Apple store, and the iPhones are going to magically start appearing there?
REID: That`s right.
IOFFE: And how are -- and how are people going to pay for it, now that they`re cut off from the Western financial system?
I -- Russia still has an economy. And it has been an extractive economy. It has always had oil, gas, other natural resources, gold, diamonds, potash, all kinds of precious meddles, aluminum.
So it will still be able to sell these things on the world market. There will always be a buyer for them, for example, China or India, who are not lining up with the U.S. and Europe on this. The question is, to what extent can it prop up the economy, and what happens to all these people that you`re seeing on the streets right now who are used to a different lifestyle and a different level of comfort?
Russia, St. Petersburg, were fantastic cities before this. They -- I think they were -- Moscow was a nicer city to live in than New York City, I would say. What happens now? What happens to the young people who are used to traveling, who are used to having Apple Pay for everything, including the metro and their local bodega?
REID: Yes.
IOFFE: What happens when they can`t watch any of these movies or access Spotify?
Do they flee? Do they protest? Or do they just shut up and wear Soviet-made jeans? I don`t know if you saw the Bolshevichka factory, which means Bolshevik woman is dusting off, apparently, its Soviet era manufacturing equipment to make Russian-made jeans, because Levi`s has left, H&M, all these other companies.
[19:25:06]
REID: You know, Havana was a beautiful city too.
IOFFE: Yes, exactly.
REID: You can have a closed economy, and there will be some people who will trade with you. They -- ask folks in Cuba how that`s working out for them.
And the brain drain will come, because, eventually, you`re going to lose your educated classes, because they`re going to get the hell out of there. He`s broken two countries, Vladimir Putin has.
IOFFE: Absolutely.
REID: A pure thug.
Thank you very much, Julia Ioffe. Appreciate you.
Up next: World leaders raise concerns about the potential use of chemical weapons in Ukraine. Putin has already shown that he`s not above using them. So what`s stopping him from doing so now?
We will ask that sobering question when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:30:32]
REID: Western nations are warning that Vladimir Putin appears ready to commit new and even more horrific atrocities in Ukraine.
Yesterday, the White House raised the possibility that Russia could soon use chemical or biological weapons, in violation of international law. And the threat appears dire enough that British Prime Minister Boris Johnson brought it up in an interview with Sky News today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I will make you one other prediction, by the way, which is that the stuff that you`re hearing about chemical weapons, this is straight out of their playbook.
They start saying that there are chemical weapons that have been stored by their opponents or by the Americans, and so, when they themselves deploy chemical weapons, as I fear they may, they have a -- sort of a maskirovka, a fake story ready to go.
QUESTION: This is what you expect next, then?
JOHNSON: Look, I -- you know, it`s -- I just note that that is what they`re already doing. It is a cynical, barbaric government, I`m afraid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: The prime minister was alluding to the false accusation that the Kremlin leveled against the West yesterday, basically accusing Ukraine and the United States of running an illicit biological weapons lab inside Ukraine.
However, their fabrication was immediately and unequivocally condemned as an outright lie by the U.S. State Department, which pointed out that Russia has a track record of accusing the West of the very crimes that Russia itself is perpetrating.
As CIA Director William Burns said today, it is straight out of the Kremlin`s playbook.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BURNS, CIA DIRECTOR: It underscores the concern that all of us need to focus on those kinds of issues.
Whether it`s the potential for a use of chemical weapons, either as a false flag operation or against Ukrainians, this is something, as all of you know very well, is very much a part of Russia`s playbook. They have used those weapons against their own citizens. They have at least encouraged the use in Syria and elsewhere.
So it`s something we take very seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Russia, however, has doubled down on their false claim and is seeking to discuss them before the U.N. Security Council on Friday, according to the Associated Press.
With me now, Naveed Jamali, editor at large for "Newsweek," former FBI double agent, an author of "How to Catch A Russian Spy."
Here, let me listen -- let you listen to -- good evening, my friend.
Let me let you listen to Volodymyr Zelenskyy doing an interview on VICE News tonight, very forcefully denying these absurd allegations from Russia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I am the president of a reasonable country and a reasonable people and the father of two children.
No chemical or any other weapon of mass destruction were developed on my land. The whole world knows this. And if Russia does something similar against us, it will receive the most severe sanctions response.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Let me just correct. That was a Telegram -- a video he posted on Telegram, not an interview with VICE.
This sounds to me like a pretext by the Kremlin to do what it`s claiming, what it`s accusing Ukraine of. What do you think?
NAVEED JAMALI, EDITOR AT LARGE, "NEWSWEEK": I think that the Russians have completely lost the information operations game.
The Zelenskyy administration, the Ukrainians have been -- they have just been cleaning their clock, Joy. I mean, it is almost embarrassing how well the Ukrainians have been doing, considering the Russians invented disinformation.
So, that being said, though, where are we in terms of let`s just call it WMDs, right, nuclear, biological, chemical? Is there a risk tonight that the Russians are going to use those types of weapons?
And, look Joy, the minute the Russians went into Ukraine, the chance was no longer zero. It escalated. And it stays escalated tonight. But I want to point out the language that`s being used here. In the past, when U.S. intelligence has assessed that something is going to happen, they have thwarted Russian attempts by making it very clear that there was an assessment that this was going to happen.
We`re hearing language that says they could use this. And, clearly, it`s out of -- everyone has said it`s out of the Russian playbook. I think it`s probably unlikely that the Russians are going to escalate by using chemical or nuclear weapons in Ukraine.
I think that there is a chance, however, that, in this scenario, if the Ukrainians pushed the Russians back and entered Russian territory, I think absolutely, Joy, that the Russians would use weapons of mass destruction on their territory.
REID: Yes.
JAMALI: I`m very skeptical that they would use it in Ukraine.
[19:35:00]
I think that, look -- and to this whole B.S. about the Ukrainians having any -- and, I mean, the Ukrainians are fighting for their lives. If they had some -- I think, if they had some device, candidly, that could turn the tide, they would probably use it.
They don`t have it. They never developed it. It`s, of course, an absurd claim. These are labs that were used for health concerns, not nuclear weapons creation. It`s, of course, an absurd thing to -- for the Russians to do.
But that`s -- that`s just Putin, man. That`s just how he rolls. That`s what he does.
REID: And it`s actually something that, even pre-Putin, I mean, in the 1980s, Russian intelligence was spreading conspiracies that the United States created HIV in a lab.
JAMALI: Right.
REID: This new conspiracy that is being picked up by Chinese state media and, of course, by far right MAGA-ish groups inside of the United States.
The scary thing about them is that there are people here in this country who will pick up this garbage and recycle it here.
JAMALI: I think you`re absolutely right.
And, look, the Russian seized an American. I think that the purse that they chose and why they chose that person was, in large part, potentially signaling what they think are their supporters here. I mean, I -- we have talked about this before, Joy.
I think that there is clearly this weird obsession by the far right here in the United States. And, look, the Russians are cultivating that. Why would they want to turn that away? They have got nothing to lose at this point. They`re not doing well in Ukraine. They really, of course, want to sow chaos.
So, yes, I think that these conspiracy theories are things that they put out there knowing that there`s no validity, that no one`s going to really take them seriously...
REID: Yes.
JAMALI: ... except for one group of people.
REID: Yes.
JAMALI: And it seems to be all these right-wingers here in the United States. So that seems to be their audience, perhaps.
REID: And the QAnoners.
Really quickly, since you`re a military man, I do want to throw this question to you. The U.S. has been very clever in the past, when they have wanted to give war planes to a nation and not get directly involved. I mean, they were sneaking -- we have some video here. Before we even got into World War II, President Roosevelt gave warplanes to Great Britain while we were staying out of the war himself.
But to maintain the appearance of neutrality, he had the planes delivered to the U.S. border with Canada, and Great Britain had to like tow them across the Canadian -- to the Canadian side.
JAMALI: Right.
REID: Like, why -- why didn`t the U.S. maybe do something secretive and sly, rather than sort of announce out loud that it`s a no-go to give them the planes?
JAMALI: Yes.
So, candidly, I think that the U.S. is doing exactly this, but I don`t think it`s going to be with Polish MiGs. I think that, look, we know that Ukrainians have Turkish drones. Who`s to say who`s flying them? And when you talk about that lend-lease and the fact that the U.S. in World War II was supplying weapons, before we got into World War II, it`s important to remember, we didn`t just supply weapons.
We supplied people too to fly those planes. So there`s a long history of this type of operation that is meant to be plausible deniability, that is meant to be covert action. And, frankly, I would be surprised to learn that we weren`t doing something in there.
REID: Yes.
JAMALI: But, of course, again, the name of the game is not to get caught and not to publicize it.
REID: And, very quickly, you have dealt with the Russians before. What do you think is in the mind of Putin as an endgame here? Because he`s not going to subdue this country.
He`s not going to subdue Ukraine.
JAMALI: Yes, you`re -- you`re absolutely right.
He -- there`s no way, Joy, that he`s going to win strategically by dominating Ukraine. He seeks to -- literally, I believe, to humiliate and devastate Ukraine. That`s what he wants. It`s this, like, personal thing. It`s his personal legacy. It`s a vanity project. He`s not going to get that.
But I do think that, unfortunately, he is going to continue to inflict just horror on innocent people who do not deserve this. And I, sadly, think, when the dust settles, the losses of Ukrainian civilians will be, like -- just it`s going to be too hard to conceptualize right now.
REID: Yes.
JAMALI: But it`s awful.
REID: It is awful.
He will go down in history the same way, direction that Hitler before him did. There`s no doubt about that.
Naveed Jamali, thank you very much.
Still ahead: Remember that time a certain orange-tinted president got caught trying to blackmail Ukraine into making up dirt against his political opponent, and then his toadies were all like, but Ukraine is evil?
Yes, well, I remember that too.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:43:02]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: What would be your message to President Vladimir Putin right now?
ZELENSKYY: Right now? Right now, stop the war. Begin to speak. That`s it.
QUESTION: And what if he doesn`t?
ZELENSKYY: I think he will. I think he will. I think he sees that we`re strong. He will. We need some time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: President Zelenskyy continues to stand resiliently against Putin`s aggression.
This morning, he delivered a message to Russian leaders and their supporters who are spreading lies about the war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENSKYY (through translator): War crimes are impossible without the propagandists who cover them up.
I want to tell them one thing. You will bear responsibility, just as all those who give the orders to bomb civilians.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: And late tonight in a new video, he accused Russia of blocking necessary information from the people of Mariupol, asking anyone who can reach residents of that besieged city to spread the truth and remind them that Ukraine is with them.
I`m joined Alexander Bilkun, former translator for former Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, and Charlie Sykes, editor at large at The Bulwark.
I want to talk about these outright lies, Mr. Bilkun, that are being now perpetrated by the Kremlin accusing Ukraine of having some sort of secret chemical facilities and accusing Ukraine of essentially being the aggressor. All of these lies are starting to filter into beyond them. It`s may not be working on Ukrainians, but it sure is working on some folks in the West.
Do you fear that these kinds of lies are a pretext to a chemical weapons- style attack on Ukraine?
ALEXANDER BILKUN, FORMER TRANSLATOR FOR UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VIKTOR YUSHCHENKO: Hi, Joy. And thanks for having me.
I really don`t know what can we expect now, to be honest, because this -- I don`t want to call him a man, honestly. He has surpassed all the boldest expectations that we might have about his insanity.
[19:45:08]
I very much hope he doesn`t resort to this chemical weapon. But I really am not in a position to analyze him.
REID: Yes.
BILKUN: Sorry.
REID: No, that`s OK.
I mean, you served a former Ukrainian president, and you know the volatility of being the neighbor of Russia. The demands that they`re making on Ukraine right now are essentially that Ukrainians stop fighting, that they promised to never join NATO, that they recognize these separatists republics.
Can you envision Ukrainians ever submitting to that, whatever propaganda he`s used to try to...
(CROSSTALK)
BILKUN: Absolutely not.
REID: Never?
BILKUN: Absolutely not.
We have come a long way to realize that any new demand will then be followed by another demand. So -- and suffice it to make one concession. It will be immediately followed by a new ultimatum. No, we`re fed up with that.
And all -- the only answer to all the demands and to all the ultimatums is no.
REID: Yes.
Let`s talk about the propaganda, Charlie, because the thing that is so distressing -- and I have said this before -- I think the only thing that Donald Trump ever really accomplished as president was to move the Republican Party, which already had some Putinite leanings during the Obama administration, move parts of it fully into the Putinist camp.
You have Madison Cawthorn, who is -- he`s more ironic, OK? Let`s just be clear about that. But here he was over the weekend calling the Ukrainian president corrupt and basically, essentially, saying he`s the villain. He`s evil, he said.
You have people like Thomas Massie of Kentucky literally parroting Kremlin propaganda, just repeating it, using it. And, of course, you have Tucker Carlson, who has the most popular program on the right-wing FOX News network, just repeating and pushing out as -- if it is coming straight from the Kremlin.
I wonder, number one, what effect do you think this will ultimately have on Republicans` ultimate support to do what we need to do as a country to support Ukraine? Because I feel like that the political incentives ultimately are driven by the far right and by people like Tucker.
CHARLIE SYKES, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Right.
REID: Do you think that this starts to crack Republican support for Ukraine and for doing things governmentally to support them?
SYKES: Unfortunately, I do.
Look, Liz Cheney described Madison Cawthorn as a member of the pro-Putin wing of the GOP. And she`s right about that. There is a pro-Putin wing of the GOP right now. And it has large megaphones.
Now, you`re going to hear a lot of Republicans, including Lindsey Graham, no, no, no, Madison Cawthorn is an outlier, he doesn`t speak for the party.
But the reality is that Madison Cawthorn is a creation of this new Trumpist Republican Party. They have made him a rock star. And the real problem is, the head of the pro-Putin wing of the Republican Party is Donald Trump.
And I have to say that, you listen to this stuff, and it sounds crazy, talking about how evil and corrupt...
REID: I think we have lost Charlie`s -- yes, we have lost Charlie`s audio.
I`m going to go back to you, Mr. Bilkun, because I guess the concern is, Mr. Bilkun, that the United States will not remain united in supporting Ukraine and giving it all that we can. I mean, I realize that the U.S. is reluctant to get involved directly in any hostilities.
But are you concerned that the support from the United States will not remain solid, if we do have a faction within one of our two major parties that is essentially anti-Ukraine and pro-Kremlin?
BILKUN: No, I wouldn`t say I am concerned about the consistency of the support that we are receiving, and for which we thank you very much.
And even to a lesser extent, I might be -- I might fear that this support would be undermined by statements like the one you`re discussing.
REID: Yes.
BILKUN: Frankly, I`m really surprised that this narrative receives so much attention in the U.S. media, because things like that were said about the world`s leaders many times.
Suffice it to recall Winston Churchill was called alcoholic, snake in the grass, and you name it. Charles de Gaulle, the French president, was called a traitor on numerous occasions. But the history dotted all the I`s and crossed all the T`s.
So, I think that the senator who is -- now can boast making a new friend like President Putin, because I don`t think that any respectable politician will ever want to shake his hand, other than Putin, Lukashenko, Assad, and other in this warm company.
[19:50:17]
But I think he`s just using every possibility for his publicity. We don`t take them seriously, honestly, most importantly that President Zelenskyy enjoys the phenomenally high support in the country. The nation is unanimously supporting him, standing with him shoulder to shoulder as long as he is standing shoulder to shoulder with his nation.
REID: Yes, indeed.
And I think -- I wish -- and I think Charlie is back -- that, Charlie, we didn`t have a political party that was essentially controlled by its media wing. If we had a serious Republican Party, we wouldn`t even have to talk about this. And we shouldn`t have to.
But Russia is -- one of the Kremlin`s biggest exports is propaganda. And they have been very effective at breaking our political system in this country. And what I personally worry about -- I don`t really care about Madison Cawthorn or any of these other fools.
What I worry about is that they and that thinking ultimately winds up creeping into the actions of proper Republicans, of serious Republicans...
SYKES: Right.
REID: ... who are too afraid to oppose that wing, and that they start to withdraw from Ukraine as well.
SYKES: Right.
REID: And I`m glad that Mr. -- that our -- that Mr. Bilkun isn`t worried about it.
And you say you are a bit more?
SYKES: Well, I am.
But, I mean, it is important to note that it`s not happening right now, that, really right now, the pro-Putin wing is very, very isolated, and it is isolated to the entertainment wing of the Republican Party.
But, as you point out, the entertainment wing of the Republican Party dominates that party. And the head of the pro-Putin wing of the Republican Party is Donald Trump, the former president of the United States and the dominant figure in that party.
And don`t underestimate how deeply ingrained this anti-Ukraine narrative is in right-wing politics. Remember that Donald Trump and Republicans were obsessed about accusing Ukraine of interference in the 2016 election. They were obsessed with their entire narrative about Hunter Biden and Joe Biden and Burisma.
So, Madison Cawthorn may look like an outlier right now, but, again, he is reflecting what was a very standard talking point in Trump world up until very, very recently.
REID: Yes.
SYKES: So, right now, emotions are running high. Republicans are standing firm.
REID: Yes.
SYKES: But my prediction is that Donald Trump will not be able to resist taking the bait.
And once he gets in...
REID: Yes.
SYKES: ... you start to see...
REID: We have lost Charlie`s -- we`re going to go ahead and go.
(CROSSTALK)
REID: But -- and God forbid he ever get back in the White House again, because you would essentially have him giving Ukraine away.
Alexander Bilkun, Charlie Sykes, thank you both very much.
We will be back up after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:57:41]
REID: As the Russian invasion enters its third week, the humanitarian crisis continues to grow more dire. The U.N. says more than 2.3 million Ukrainians have become refugees. More than 1.4 million have crossed into Poland alone.
Joining me now from Krakow, Poland, is NBC News correspondent Ellison Barber -- Ellison.
ELLISON BARBER, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Joy.
We have spent the last 12 or so days stopping, visiting border crossings all along the Polish-Ukrainian border. And we wanted to follow the journey that so many people are taking, because, oftentimes, they`re not staying in these border cities.
They`re boarding trains, and then they`re headed to bigger cities like this, Krakow, and then lining up, waiting, trying to figure out if there`s a place for them to sleep. We were in a train station today on platform number four, where there were countless refugees standing, waiting in line hours at times to try and talk to someone to see if there was a place where they might have shelter for the night.
In that line, we met one woman. She`s in her 70s. She`s fled her hometown, Kharkiv. We asked her a question we have asked every refugee we have met in the last two weeks: What do you want Americans to understand about what Ukrainians are going through?
This is what she told us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NATALIA TSYRKOVNIUK, REFUGEE FROM KHARKIV (through translator): I think that people have to know that Ukraine is a peaceful country, and we didn`t want to attack anyone. We had no such plans.
And it`s we who were attacked, actually. We couldn`t imagine that Putin -- Putin would make such a decision. And I want everybody to live in peace. And I also want other countries not to ever experience what we are experiencing right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BARBER: She`d been waiting in line for an hour to try and see if there was some place for her to stay the night, the next few days, until the fighting stops.
She told us, if she didn`t get a room after waiting in that line, she had no idea where she was going to sleep, Joy. People are trying to get beds, but there simply are not enough for the number of refugees here.
So, people are sleeping on train platforms or at makeshift shelters -- Joy.
REID: Ellison Barber, thank you.
And a reminder, you can see the masks there. This is all happening during an ongoing pandemic, double and triple tragedy.
Thank you very much. Really appreciate you, Ellison.
That is tonight`s REIDOUT.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.