Summary
Seven people dead and more than 30 inured in a mass shooting at a Highland Park, Illinois parade. Interview with Rep. Brad Schneider (D-IL). The city of Akron, Ohio, is under curfew tonight after multiple days of protests following the release of body cam videos on Sunday that showed eight Akron police officers shooting and killing 25-year-old Jayland Walker.
Transcript
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: All right. We are going to keep our eyes very closely on this because I think this is one of the most important things we have seen before the court.
Marc Elias, as always, pleasure to have you on. Thank you, sir.
MARC ELIAS, DEMOCRATIC VOTING RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Thank you.
HAYES: That is "ALL IN" on this Tuesday night.
MSNBC PRIME starts right now with Ali Velshi in Highland Park, Illinois.
Good evening, Ali.
ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST: Chris, good evening to you. Thank you. And we will see you tomorrow.
And thanks to you at home for joining us this hour.
As Chris said, I`m here in Highland Park, Illinois. It`s a suburb north of Chicago. The latest American city on a long list of cities, a growing list of cities. That have experienced a deadly mass shooting.
Around 10:15 a.m. yesterday morning, a gunman climbed up on the roof top, down the road, here behind me. And began firing towards the 4th of July parade down below him. The parade at Highland Park, by the way, was well attended by families, with young kids every year. That`s what a Fourth of July parade should.
The local high school marching band was performing when the shooting began. And as of tonight, seven people have died after being shot at the parade, 47 people were wounded.
The victims range in age from 88 years old to 8 years old. The alleged shooter is 21 years old. He is currently in custody. Authorities say they believe he`s been planning the attack for weeks.
Now, all in all, he fired more than 70 rounds from an AR-style weapon that he purchased legally in the state of Illinois. This could be a tape, by the, way that`s what I always say. That someone bought one of these AR- style weapons.
But the thing about this particular type of weapon is that while it was purchased legally in this state, it was technically illegal to carry that kind of semi-automatic weapon inside the city of Highland Park, where this massacre took place. Because in 2013, the city of Highland Park banned assault weapons from the city.
That have been just a few months after sandy hook, were 26 little kids and their teachers were gunned down at their elementary school in Connecticut. Democrats in Congress try to pass a federal assault weapons ban which was swiftly blocked by Republicans.
So members of the Highland Park City Council took it into their own hands. They wrote up a new city ordinance that designs -- designated assault weapons as a risk to public safety. They said that in no situation are military-style weapons are justified means of self-defense in Highland Park. And then they voted to ban all assault style weapons and high capacity magazines from their community.
But there`s one other interesting part of that particular city ordinance that I want to highlight tonight. Take a look at this. It`s towards the bottom. It says, quote, the city has previously incurred the governor and the Illinois general assembly to enact statewide legislation banning the sale and possession of assault weapons. To date, the state has failed to enact a statewide ban on the sale of or possession of assault weapons, end quote.
What`s the city council here was suddenly pointing to, is that this kind of citywide assault weapons ban doesn`t mean anything if there are weak gun laws and surrounding areas. No cop is checking you when you`re coming into Highland Park, even with that ban in place, there`s nothing standing in the way of someone who decides to legally purchased an assault weapon somewhere else in the state, or even a neighboring state and drive it into Highland Park to kill people, which is, of course, exactly what happened yesterday morning, just behind where I`m standing.
We are learning more today about the trauma injured by the survivors of this mass shooting. One woman told "The New York Times" that while she was fleeing the gunshots, she saw toddler trapped under a man who was bleeding, and unresponsive.
The boys injury was minor, just some scrapes and bruises, but he kept asking the woman where his mom and dad were. The child was taken to the hospital where he was reunited with his grandparents.
Today, authorities released the names of six of the seven victims of the shooting, which is how we learn tragically that both of those little boy`s parents were killed yesterday. His mother, Irina McCarthy was 35 years old, his father, Kevin McCarthy, 37 years old.
We learn more today about the alleged shooter. Police say that in 2019, someone who knew the shooter call the police because the shooter had attempted suicide. Just four months later, the police were called again, this time by the teenagers parents, who said their son has threatened to quote, kill everyone.
Police remove 16 knives as well as a dagger and a sword from the home. Authorities say the suspect has been willing to speak to investigators since he has been taken into custody. They say at this, time any kind of motive he may have had remains unclear.
The alleged shooter was charged late tonight with seven counts of murder. The states attorney general is right, here he brought up the chargers and said tonight he expects dozens of more charges will be right to account not just for the seven people were killed, but all of the victims.
[21:05:05]
Charges will be representative not just of the physical damage done by the shooter, but the emotional damage. If convicted, these charges come with the mandatory life sentence without the possibility of parole.
Now, just in the last hour, Vice President Kamala Harris was right here in Highland Park. She met with the mayor and the sheriff, and with first responders, and urged the rest of the country to have empathy, that`s the mayor on the left, by the way, to have empathy for the people of Highland Park. Because, she said, this could happen anywhere. And I know, because I`ve been covering them. They literally do happen everywhere in this country.
The sun is just darting to set here. It is actually set in Highland Park. This is the first full day after a man with a legally purchased gun fired into the crowd. The gravity of what happened here is beginning to settle it.
Joining me now in Highland Park is Joel Krause. He was at the parade.
Joel, thank you for being with us.
This is a hard day. For everyone else, things are settling down. For you, you are still processing this. You are here with your family, with your two little daughters.
JOEL KRAUSE, HIGHLAND PARK SHOOTING WITNESS: That`s correct.
VELSHI: Where were you? You are down the road?
KRAUSE: Just on the left side there, down about a block or so. Before joining the parade, we were there their neighbors there with their two children. There were four young children there together with us. And we were, unfortunately, right in front of the person who lost their life, Nicolas Toledo, who was the first person that we noticed had been shot.
So, we heard the shot. We thought it was kind of someone using firecrackers or something like that. And then we turned around and saw that he had actually received some pretty graphic. I`m trying not to get too graphic.
VELSHI: Seventy-eight years old.
KRAUSE: Yeah.
VELSHI: He was standing --
KRAUSE: He`s right behind us.
Unfortunately, their family probably took a lot of the damage for us. And maybe save our lives in one way or another. But we were lower to the ground. We immediately dropped, and just frantically trying to cover my children. And use my body to protect them.
VELSHI: Literally you and someone else who is next to you. You were both covering your children?
KRAUSE: I was trying to cover mine. And then my neighbor had his 15 month old and a stroller, which we put down. He had the front side, I was trying to cover the back as well. So, together, we try to keep them all together and keep the kids as calm as possible. Just wait for the shooting to stop.
The images I have, the memories there, the bullets going through the trees. And hearing it hit the leaves. Just the screams, the shouts, the panic.
VELSHI: Did you know? You said it sound like firecrackers. It`s July 4th, it might have been firecrackers.
And everybody tells me the same story. Then they realized it wasn`t. And in some cases, it was people were screaming, people were running. In your case, you saw a man get shot beside you, right behind you?
KRAUSE: Yes, we were feet away. And, unfortunately, my children saw everything. So, they saw everything. So, my seven-year-old is processing it. My four-year-old is working through it as well. It`s just tragic to think about them seeing that, having to live through that.
VELSHI: How do you give them answers? What can you even say?
KRAUSE: The best way to do it is just not sugarcoat it. Just answer the question. Make sure they know they are loved and supported. We are here for them to answer any questions.
Today, it was a lot of her wanting to put together, my seven-year-old, what happened, where was mom? I was also there with my mother, as well as my mother-in-law, both of their grandmas where there. So, the chances of them -- they could`ve lost so much family, all in one.
VELSHI: And that`s not an abstraction, because you saw what happened next you. So at this point, you and your neighbor, your covering your children. You know the people are getting shot. And so, you are thinking that bullet could be coming for your family. And you are hoping that if it can for your family a gift to you and it stops with you and doesn`t hit your children.
What a choice to have to make. What a thing to have to think about. Just, cover your children, so they don`t die. But you might.
KRAUSE: Right, it`s an experience I want anyone to have to live through, to ever have to.
VELSHI: But they will. But they will. And we will talk about this in another, what, maybe a week or ten days. And that is the worst part about it, right?
KRAUSE: It`s almost every day.
VELSHI: It is almost every day. In fact, numerically, it`s a little more than that.
What do you do about that? It`s come for you now? It`s not an abstraction.
KRAUSE: I am angry. I`m angry. And I don`t know what to do with that other than channel it is something. So what`s that my turn to be, I don`t know. It`s been 24 hours. I don`t know where I`m going to do with it.
There`s so many things that need to be fixed, and so many pieces. They all need to be fixed at once. We have a tendency don`t want to fix one thing at a time.
[21:10:01]
You can.
VELSHI: Yeah.
KRAUSE: We have to fix all of. It you have to put your energy. Everywhere you have the true gunman walk at the same time.
So, as a country, we need to start to work together. We need to talk about actual change. What`s going to prevent death, and prevent loss in so many ways.
I`m fortunate to have everyone in my family walk away completely fine. But we know that others didn`t and --
VELSHI: Has that sit in for you?
KRAUSE: Yeah.
VELSHI: That you could have easily not been here today? I could`ve been talking to someone else about you, or your children?
KRAUSE: Yeah. I feel very fortunate that we survived, but not fortunate to have been there and not fortunate about anything else. Nobody should have to live through that. We`re working on. And we`ll do our best to get through. It`s definitely going to be a long road.
VELSHI: It`s sad, but you have the hopes in wishes of the country that doesn`t want to have to see this again. But they will. I`m sorry for what you`ve had to face. Thank you for telling us about it.
KRAUSE: Thank you for your time.
VELSHI: It helps us to understand it. To just keep on hearing from people why this doesn`t have to happen again. Thank you.
I hope your kids are okay.
KRAUSE: Thank you so much for your time.
VELSHI: Joel Krause was at the Fourth of July parade in Highland Park when the deadly shooting happened, as were a lot of people I spoke to today.
As we learn more about what happened, we`re also learning about the seven people who were killed in the shooting. They are 64-year-old Katherine Goldstein, 63-year-old Jacquelyn Sundheim, 88-year-old Stephen Straus, 78- year-old Nicolas Toledo-Zaragoza, whom we just heard about. He was -- he was standing behind my last guest.
The couple we mentioned earlier, 35-year-old Irina McCarthy and 37-year-old Kevin McCarthy, as well as a yet identified person. Those are the seven who have passed away. We are going to have more information on these victims as we get it.
But joining me now is the Highland Park Mayor Nancy Rotering.
Nancy, thank you for being with us.
MAYOR NANCY ROTERING (D), HIGLAND PARK, ILLINOIS: Thank you, Ali.
VELSHI: We saw you just moments ago. We showed the video of you when the vice president was here. She had a scheduled trip to Chicago.
ROTERING: She did.
VELSHI: You had asked her to come?
ROTERING: I asked her to come up and speak for our first responders. They have had an unbelievable 36 hours. And I knew they would appreciate hearing words of comfort and support from the vice president.
More importantly, she said to them, they need to take care of themselves.
VELSHI: Tell us about the first responders. There were three reasons first responded here. One was some of them are in the parade. Secondly, it was a large event. So there was a larger police presence. And they were -- the police station is over there.
So, they did exactly what we`d hope first responders will do, to their own peril, they ran towards --
ROTERING: Straight towards the danger.
VELSHI: Everybody else tried to run away.
ROTERING: Absolutely.
VELSHI: And they were running forward.
ROTERING: They were. They were unbelievable.
We`ve had incredible partnership with the FBI, ATF, the state police. And so many local police departments came together, have worked together an unbelievable concert and they caught the guy. I mean, it was an afternoon of absolute fear and panic. People were hiding under the gas station, under that store, in houses. They caught him.
VELSHI: People understand that all politics is local. This particular place, the city did the right thing about assault weapons ban.
ROTERING: In 2013, we banned it.
VELSHI: Pardon me. And yet, this still happen.
ROTERING: Right. We need to talk about the fact that patchwork legislation is not going to work when you`re talking about weapons of war. It`s time for a national ban. We had one. It diminished a number of mass shooting for several years and then expired. And here we are.
And to your point, this is all too frequent. I heard from so many mayors who said to me, oh, yeah, let me give you the handbooks on what`s mayors supposed to do.
VELSHI: You guys think about this. Now, it`s not an abstract thought --
ROTERING: It`s not abstract. Exactly. The U.S. Conference of Mayors literally had a seminar, it was attended by hundreds of mayors. In the middle of that -- the mayor of Seattle had the call that her city was dealing with a mass shooting.
It`s a sickness. It needs to be addressed. We did what we could. We represented our cities values here and took the necessary action.
We took the risk of getting sued by the NRA and we were and we prevailed. But at the end of the day, we need to see leadership, whether it`s at the state level, I would prefer a national level, because we are surrounded by several states who were very lenient.
VELSHI: I didn`t tell the full story there, but you are surrounded by other communities who don`t have these laws with the state is surrounded by other states -- Illinois does have more strict gun laws in a lot of places do, but it doesn`t matter because --
(CROSSTALK)
ROTERING: They can just drive an hour there in Indiana. They can drive in another direction, and they`re in Missouri. This country has to get tighter with the -- at some point. The pictures, what happens to people`s bodies when someone uses a combat weapon.
It is making a statement. It`s a violent, evil act.
VELSHI: Is there some sense that this evolves in this changes? Because it`s hard. When you go into these communities where people say, I can`t believe this happened here.
[21:15:01]
ROTERING: Right.
VELSHI: But it does. It happens everywhere.
Is there some sense that -- do you get some sense, particularly seeing the vice president, we`ve obviously had some gun legislation, which was monumental to have anything happen. Do you think people are tired of it and they will support communities that take a strong stand?
ROTERING: It`s interesting. I`ve got several calls for municipalities who are wanting to take this action. Currently, they`re preempting by the state of Illinois. We`re working -- when he came here, there will hopefully be action in terms of removing state preemption or creating a statewide ban.
But, again it has to be a national movement. We are the only country that doesn`t address access to weapons of war. We know people have mental health issues and other countries -- video games, and post-nonsense on social media. But they do not have access to these guns.
And something has to be done. This isn`t freedom. We came together yesterday to celebrate as a community, multigenerational, Independence Day, our first parade in two years. It was a glorious day until it wasn`t, and it turns from parade to a mass evacuation. Enough.
VELSHI: So what`s the audience couldn`t see, as I was talking to Joel moments ago, you are standing right there. You heard the whole conversation.
You felt his emotion. He said. It he said, I`m angry. I`m trying to channel it into something. It`s only been 24 hours, I don`t know with that something is.
That`s something I`ve been hearing a lot. Not just miss community, but every community I go to after shooting. I want something to happen.
What should that something look like for everyday people who have not been killed in a mass shooting? What should that look like?
KRAUSE: It should look like in and an empathy for war victims, because at the end of the day, we are having the functional equivalency of a war breaking out in our streets, unprovoked.
Senator Duckworth was here last May. She says she hasn`t heard those since she was in combat and Iraq.
Enough is enough. There`s no reason to have these weapons on our streets. Not for hunting, not for self protection. It has to end.
VELSHI: Mayor, thank you. I`m sorry to make my first visit here under the circumstances. But we wish you the best.
KRAUSE: I appreciate everything. Thanks, Ali.
VELSHI: Thank you.
KRAUSE: Highland Park Mayor Nancy Rotering.
The congressman who represents Highland Park was actually at the parade yesterday when the shooting started. We`re going to speak to him about yesterday and how, as the mayor talked, about to change things going forward. That`s coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
[21:22:23]
VELSHI: A Philadelphia-based NBC News reporter was in the middle of interviewing a couple of teenagers, out celebrating the 4th of July last night, when gunfire rang out. This is an aerial look of how that Independence Day celebration evolved last, or devolved, last night. As fireworks went off in the center city of Philadelphia, and hundreds of people began sprinting down the Ben Franklin parkway, away from the gunshots.
There were no casualties, two police officers were injured in the shooting. Investigators are looking to identify a suspect, who remains at large. They`re also trying to determine where the shots came from, and how many rounds were fired.
There was supposed to be a celebration, in a city where the Declaration of Independence was signed. This is how the mayor of Philadelphia describes what happened instead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR JIM KENNEY, PHILADELPHIA, PA: A laidback chill day. Whether it was beautiful, everything was beautiful. We live in America though, and we have the second amendment, and we have the Supreme Court of the United States telling everybody you can carry a gun wherever they want. It`s like god city. I mean, so like, we have to come to grips with what this country is about right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: In addition to that incident in Philadelphia, more than a dozen mattress took place across the country during this holiday weekend alone, including the catastrophe in Highland Park yesterday, that left seven people dead. Even before that attack, at least 57 people were shot in the Chicago area this weekend, nine of them died. And when you take the six months and five days of the year that have gone by in 2022, Gun Violence Archive count 309 mass shootings so far in 2022. Those are incidents in which four or more people were shot or killed, more than one today, actually more than a day almost.
Just last week, President Biden signed by new law gun legislator into law, the most consequential and expensive bill of its kind in decades. During the signing ceremony, he said, the families of the victims of recent shootings told him, quote, for god sake, just do something!
The president said, quote, today we did. He said lives will be saved. That was on June 25th. The law he signed strengthened background checks for buyers, younger than 21. It`s tightened the boyfriend loophole. It set aside funds for mental health resources, in states where the laws. The law does not ban assault style weapons.
Now let me tell you, I have been covering the shootings on the ground from the scene, for years. And they all have assault style weapons.
Fast forward about a week by the way, after that signing, a mass shooter killed seven people on July 4th, right here, where the assault weapon leaving the Highland Park to be the latest community to gain national attention as a target of mass violence.
[21:25:11]
These are the two main newspapers in Chicago. These are today`s front covers. "The Chicago Tribune" says: Holiday Horror. "The Sun-Times" says: Horror on the Fourth.
Officials here are still not sure what motivated the Highland Park shooter, but it seems clear, that ready access for these weapons of war, allowed him to inflict as much damage as he did.
Joining me now is Congressman Brad Schneider. He`s a Democrat from Illinois, who represents Highland Park. He was at the parade when the shots were fired.
Congressman, good to see you. Thank you for being with us.
REP. BRAD SCHNEIDER (D-IL): Good to be here. Thank you.
VELSHI: This is the route along which the parade was going, where the shots were fired. You are moving your way between towns. You had four parades you were going to.
SCHNEIDER: Five parades.
VELSHI: Five parades.
SCHNEIDER: We were coming here and I was --
VELSHI: You are literally right over.
SCHNEIDER: Literally just arrived, it was talking to my team where we connected during the parade route. We had not yet joined the route when the shots rang out.
The woman I was talking to, Hari (ph), said there were shots and everyone is running to get away, and I moved away from the parade grounds. But this is a parade that thousands of people lined this route, they come together, families, generations, grandparents, parents, and grandchildren,
I talk to one family. They are 16 family members were killed sitting where the shooting took place, celebrating the nation`s birthday, our independence, our freedom.
VELSHI: Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: And only to have in a flash of a moment, upwards I heard so many rounds were fired in a matter of seconds because a individual was able to get a military style assault weapon, what they`re calling an AR-15 style weapon, killed, murder, seven people, wounded more than 30, and shattered the tranquility and the aspirations of this community on the day we celebrated our nation`s birthday.
VELSHI: Joe Krause who was standing there, and had a man next to him shot dead said that he heard the bullets whistling through the air. The Mayor who was just here a moment ago, was talking about the fact that it sounded, you know, more like a war zone.
The senator, Tammy Duckworth, had said the same thing, that this was -- she hadn`t heard this kind of thing, you don`t hear this kind of thing in small town America. You heard in a war zone.
On one hand, we actually have legislation for the first time in decades, gun legislation. On the other hand, everybody who does one of the things does it with an AR-style weapon, and lots of young men seem to be able to get them.
SCHNEIDER: And I don`t want to dismiss this legislation. House, Senate, Republicans, they came together.
VELSHI: It`s a big deal.
SCHNEIDER: It`s a big deal.
VELSHI: Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: But it`s a small step.
VELSHI: Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: It`s money for states to put in red flag laws, which need to be in the states. Yesterday`s experience demonstrates that. It`s money for mental health. It`s closing the boyfriend loophole. All of these things are critically important. But it`s not enough.
VELSHI: Yeah.
SCHNEIDER: We know that these military weapons, weapons of death and destruction design for one thing to, to kill as many people as efficiently and quickly as possible, have no business in our community, and on our streets. And as long as people have access to these weapons, to climb on a roof, and disrupt a holiday parade with families are celebrating our community, we`re going to have tragedies like this 309 that almost 12 a week, almost two every single day.
We are better than this. We can to gather, Republicans and Democrats, and address this problem.
VELSHI: So some of that will happen in Congress, or could happen in Congress. It does feel to some people that we squeezed all the juice that we could out of the fruit, to get this legislation that we have just had. In the end, you talk about red flag laws, this is an example of a person who has had the police called twice, possibly for suicide attempt, possibly for a threat to kill other people, and yet, was able to legally purchased a weapon in the state of Illinois, which is not known for having the most liberal gun laws in the nation.
How do you solve problems that seem so obvious to people who think about it, but seemed unsolvable in terms of getting weapons out of the hands of these young man?
SCHNEIDER: Absolutely. Look, we will get more information about how this guy got the gun. He bought illegally. There were visits to his home. A couple of years ago, in all that is going to be developed as we get more facts along the case. This is still a crime scene. They are collecting all that data.
But what we know that the assault weapons ban worked. We had an assault weapons ban through ten years, the number. --
VELSHI: And you did not have these stories on a daily basis.
SCHNEIDER: Exactly.
VELSHI: I use a weekly basis, it`s more than that.
SCHNEIDER: It is not just a weekly, it is every day. Two a day, we are seeing this and affecting communities all across the nation.
No community should experience what Highland Park is experiencing now. No community deserves to experience this. What our communities deserves as action from Congress, concrete action, to pass twice now in the House, universal background checks legislation, 90 percent plus of the population, left, right, hunters say we should do that. Let`s get that done.
It`s not a matter of trying to squeeze the juice out of Congress. It`s a matter of Congress stepping up and stepping forward and taking our responsibilities seriously to keep our communities safe.
[21:30:02]
Kids in their schools, people in church, synagogue, people going to stores or a movie should not have to worry that someone`s going to come in and fire off Sunday rounds in just a couple of minutes.
VELSHI: Congressman, thanks for your time.
SCHNEIDER: Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you for being here.
VELSHI: My pleasure.
Congressman Brad Schneider is Democrat from Illinois who represents Highland Park.
We`re going to speak with a surgeon who was at the parade. Congressman was talking about the damage that these weapons of war do. He`s a surgeon who was here with his family during the shooting. He jumped in to help treat the wounded, as soon as a shooting stop. He`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:35:13]
VELSHI: When the crowd started running, at first he thought a celebrity had been spotted. Howard Prager was playing the tuba with his Klezmer band, a Jewish instrumental group at the Highland Park Fourth of July parade yesterday when the horror began to unfold.
I spoke with Mr. Prager earlier this evening.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI: This was the scene of the shooting behind us. When you were performing what happened in that moment when the shooting started? You are playing, you are performing.
HOWARD PRAGER, WITNESS TO HIGHLAND PARK SHOOTING: Correct.
VELSHI: How did you know something happen?
PRAGER: You know, we didn`t at first. And then we started seeing people run on the street that we were on, which is the street right before getting into the main street for the parade.
VELSHI: So, this is the main street for the parade.
PRAGER: Correct.
VELSHI: The parade was here. And people were now running away from you?
PRAGER: Correct.
VELSHI: This way and you are over there.
PRAGER: Yes. Yes. We were over there playing. And we saw a few people running by and didn`t think much of it. We kept playing joyously. And then all of a sudden, we saw a larger crowd and said, something`s not right. We stop playing to try to find out what was going on.
But at first known was saying anything. And finally we heard shooter.
VELSHI: Wow.
PRAGER: And that scared us. We heard some of the pops. We stopped playing. We heard some of the pops from the shooting.
VELSHI: So you are performing in the Klezmer band.
PRAGER: Yes.
VELSHI: It`s literally joy`s music, it`s this fun thing. I am trying to understand, in the moment it`s your performing. I imagine you`re having a good time performing.
PRAGER: Yes.
VELSHI: And then it dawns on you there`s a shooter. And you see people running. They have panic in their eyes. Give me a sense of what happened. This is inside of a minute?
PRAGER: Yes. I think we are probably playing for two minutes and then it started. So we were playing a little bit longer, again, not for the first few people we didn`t think anything was up. But the more we saw people running, the more we realized. Both are piano player, Gayle (ph), and our violin player, Alex, realize there was a shooting going on.
VELSHI: How are you communicating this to each other? Because you are playing.
PRAGER: Right, right. It`s more -- Gayle is a piano player. She could talk. She said, I think something`s wrong. And I`m playing a long thinking, I don`t see anything, Gayle. Or, I don`t think so. And she was right.
VELSHI: Tell me what you`ve been thinking for the last 24 hours.
PRAGER: This is surreal. I can`t believe it happened here in this community. I can`t believe I was this close to it. And I am just so numb and in shock that this madness, this violence, this gun violence continues in this country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELSHI: This is surreal. I want to turn now to someone who not only witnessed yesterday`s brutal attack. But he stayed as the terror unfolded to help victims.
Joining us now is the man we always hope, a man or woman we always hope is here. He`s a doctor. Dr. Loren Schechter was at yesterday`s July 4th parade with his family, right here. He jumped in to help and treat victims after the gunfire rang out. His normal job is as a surgeon at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago.
Doctor, thank you for your service, first of all.
You should not have to be the guy who is around at a parade. But this happened. And I think the thing we have to get across to our viewers is this not the same as being shot with a handgun. These weapons, which all these mass shootings are undertaken with, they do damage to the bodies that even having a doctor on the scene cannot always help.
DR. LOREN SCHECHTER, SURGEON, RUSH UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: That`s absolutely correct. The injuries were devastating. I won`t describe them particularly but it was carnage. Several people that I saw who were obviously deceased were beyond help.
We turned our attention to other people. It was a triage situation. There was an older gentlemen. I believe he was unfortunately one of people who passed away to a gunshot to his abdomen. We started an IV, held pressure on his abdomen.
I went to some of the younger people who had multiple gunshots in their legs, open fractures, bones displaced. Apply tourniquet, started IVs, got them on the ground. A couple of other people who had not been shot, who were pretty bruised and beaten, try to comfort them as the best we could. A couple of the younger people who were literally eviscerated on the ground.
VELSHI: These weapons are of a power that -- some people say a handgun is also semiautomatic. You can just keep pulling the trigger, and each time you pull a trigger, a gun will fire.
[21:40:03]
So, why do people distinguish between those in these?
SCHECHTER: Yeah. I mean, I`ve seen, unfortunately, a number of handguns. These clearly weren`t handguns. The level of devastation and destruction of the body was well beyond the handgun. These individuals were mortally, mortally wounded.
VELSHI: And there were EMS people. Here and a surgeon, like you. This is beyond many cases what people on the scene can do. I`m not sure if some of these people if they were magically in an operating room within moments can be saved, given the damage that you and others have described to me, that those people who die faced.
SCHECHTER: They were clearly deceased on the scene. Getting them to an operating room would not have made one -- unfortunately, one bit of difference.
VELSHI: Wow. What is your take on it? As a doctor who sees these things, unfortunately, this is not what you see every day. What`s the message you let people take away from this?
SCHECHTER: I mean, I certainly don`t understand. I don`t own a gun. I don`t understand why someone would need a weapon of this power. The devastation that we saw was horrific.
I can`t imagine as a sports hunter that you would need a weapon of that nature. It was truly awful. It was horrific. I don`t have words to really describe. The community are grew up, and my wife grew up in, we raised our kids --
VELSHI: Which, by the way, doesn`t allow those weapons.
SCHECHTER: Which does not allow those weapons.
VELSHI: How are your kids?
SCHECHETER: The older wind was pretty shaken. He was about 100 yards away with my sister.
VELSHI: How old is he?
SCHECHTER: He`s 8, going to be 9. And I was literally on the street, underneath the shooter. And we called my sister, who had him, I said get out of here. We had my older parents. We were shuffling -- shuffling them off. I mean, we literally heard the bullets coming by. The trees were shaking. --
VELSHI: I heard from people they heard the bullet.
SCHECHTER: I`m not familiar with that level of gun noise. I mean, I thought my head, this is where I`m going to end. This is the end of it.
So, I got around the corner. My dad is a retired doctor. I said, I`m going to go back and help. And that`s what we try to do.
VELSHI: Thank you for which you did. Thank you, by the grace of God, you`re here. But may this not be something you ever see again.
SCHECHTER: Thank you.
VELSHI: Dr. Loren Schechter is a surgeon at Rush University Medical Center. He treated patients at the scene of yesterday`s horrific mass shooting.
All right. We`re going to continue our coverage here. We turn next to the other shooting that our nation is grappling with right now. It`s a heavy night and there`s a lot to get to.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:47:23]
VELSHI: About 350 miles east of where I am now in Highland Park, Illinois, the city of Akron, Ohio, is under curfew tonight. That comes after multiple days of protests following the release of body cam videos on Sunday that showed eight Akron police officers shooting and killing 25-year-old Jayland Walker.
Now, the police pursuing him for having fled from a routine traffic stop. But that pursuit ended with Jayland Walker suffering from more than 60 gunshot wounds.
Now, there are plenty of complicating factors to this case. We are getting a lot of coverage in the media.
Police say that when he emerged from the car, walker was wearing a ski mask. He also had a gun in his car that police say discharged prior to the pursuit on foot. He was unarmed at the time he pled the car, and was shot.
But all those complicating factors might be beside the larger point, when asked people in the streets of Akron, upset about, this particular police shooting is the amount of force used by the police.
Now we normally try to avoid showing video that is too upsetting, or too violent, but for the story, in order to understand how much deadly force was used against Walker, seeing the video is necessary.
So, now is your chance to turn away, if you don`t want to see the video, and I fully understand if you need to, because it is tough to watch. This is video from when Walker exits his car, to the point where he is shot.
Now, we are going to freeze the video, but then keep the audio going once Walker is on the ground. It`s important to hear just how long the officers continue to shoot after he is down.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
VELSHI: Non-stop shooting from multiple officers for nearly seven seconds.
Joining us now is Phillip Atiba Goff, the cofounder and CEO of the Center of Policing Equity and a professor of African American studies and psychology at Yale University.
Professor Goff, thanks for being with us tonight.
You have had a chance as you always do, to have a look at what the public gets, the information body cameras, the things that the mayor and the police chief and others have said. What do you make about of the situation in Akron?
PHILLIP ATIBA GOFF, CO-FOUNDER & CEO, CENTER FOR POLICING EQUITY: So, you are in Highland Park right now. Single shooter, discharged, something close to 70 rounds. It was a mass shooting, a catastrophe, a tragedy.
[21:50:03]
These eight officers discharged 90 rounds, 90. Sixty of which went into one body. We were talking earlier about how AR-15 style weapons shred the body. It`s not like a handheld pistol. But 60 rounds in an individual, there is no one who is that dangerous, there is no way you can justify it. It`s just grotesque.
And so, we will talk about him in the weeks and months to come, the failures of training. We will talk about the reasonable and standard of, well, they thought there was a gun, and that he was wearing a ski mask, and that led the officers to fear.
But what on earth are we going to be able to say that says 90 rounds, 60 which go into a single body, is the way in which anybody is kept safe? Our response to this is the same as most folks that I see in these communities, which is that, this is a way to keyless thing that we pay for to then have to watch somebody die that way.
VELSHI: So what is the response to the official line of police, at least for now, prior to there being a full investigation, that we should be considering the fear that the police officers may have had by virtue of the fact that they say, a weapon was discharged from the car, and he got out of the car with a ski mask.
GOFF: So I want to understand how fear of a potential shooter leads eight officers in Akron, Ohio, to shoot 90 rounds, 60 of which go into one body, and say, well that is reasonable, but one individual who shot 70 rounds, into a parade, said hey, could you do me a favor, and get on the ground.
So I understand fear. I have been in positions where I am afraid for my safety. It has never made me act like that, and we saw in the video, the officers were able to make tactical decisions. You see officers put down their gun, when someone crosses in front of them. These folks are supposed to have to justify each and every single bullet in a court of law.
You can`t justify 90. I don`t care what the heck the story is. But there`s not a justification for 90 bullets.
VELSHI: So if you were either in charge of, oh advising the Akron police force today, and you are tasked with repairing their relations with the community. Where do you start after something like this?
GOFF: I`m not sure that I do. So in most of the situations, when we get asked to do all the time, and what many politicians will ask to do, well, how do we do exactly that? How do we repair the relationship there? How do we fix what has been broken?
I got to say, in many places, across the country, folks are not are no longer asking, for better. They are asking for different. They are saying, I don`t want law enforcement to respond to a traffic violation.
For instance, in Berkeley, California, we found six and a half times more likely black folks get stopped than white votes, often for pretext. Berkeley just said, we are not going to do low-level traffic enforcement with arm responders anymore. And Berkeley has now been followed by places like Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Seattle, Lansing, Michigan, Brooklyn, Minnesota, and the entire state of Virginia.
VELSHI: Yeah.
GOFF: So I don`t know that the thing to do here is to focus on how much we trust the folks who are armed and have a bad. So much as it is trying to stop responding to things that could turn deadly, and shouldn`t, with non- deadly options.
VELSHI: Well, you and I both spend a lot time in Philadelphia, where the rights confine police were in favor of. This great, get as out of the business of pulling people over for a sticker that expired, or a light that`s not working in a car. It doesn`t end up well. We don`t want to be in this business of raising revenue by the city by pulling people over for petty traffickers.
GOFF: Yeah, that`s right. If you got a license plate reader, you can tell we`ll where the person lives, and just send them a ticket. In many cities, they have banned pursuits in cars, precisely because, most get hopped on a troubling, and then they end up getting crashes. It`s dangerous to the officers, and obviously can be deadly to the motorist.
But it`s not just traffic. I don`t need a gun or badge to do mental health well, or homeless this well, or child welfare, the right kind of way. We don`t need to respond to crises with potential for punishment and death. So much as we need to respond to crises with care.
It can be cheaper and it is almost always less deadly. That is about from an ideological position. That is from science. And law enforcement and activists are asking for the same thing right now.
VELSHI: Philip, good to see you again. Thank you for being with us. Phillip Atiba Goff is a cofounder and CEO of the center for Policing Equity. He`s a professor of African American studies and psychology at Yale University.
We always appreciate seeing you sir. Thank you for being with us.
GOFF: Thanks.
VELSHI: We`ve got two big updates in two of the investigations into Donald Trump`s attempts to overturn the election.
[21:55:01]
That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Okay, we got two important pieces of news before we go tonight, both involving the investigations into Donald Trump`s plot to overturn the 2020 election.
Today, we learned that the Fulton County, Georgia special grand jury, which is looking into potential criminal interference in Georgia`s 2020 presidential election, has subpoena key members of former President Donald Trump`s legal team, including his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani. In addition, that grand jury also subpoenaed South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham. So, that`s the first piece of news.
The second involves the January 6 investigation on Capitol Hill. Today, the January 6 committee announced it will hold another public hearing next Tuesday at 10:00 a.m. Eastern.
MSNBC will, of course, have live coverage of that hearing, as well as a primetime recap, that evening, at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. It will be hosted by Rachel Maddow. She is joined by a whole host of MSNBC colleagues, certainly going to be a busy few days and weeks ahead.
That does it for us here in Highland Park, Illinois. We`ll see you again tomorrow.
It`s time for "THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL".
Lawrence, I have to say, with everything that the January 6 public hearing has given us so far, it`s no surprise as they got more information, that they continue to want to make this public as soon as possible. When they said they were going to blow the roof off the house with these things that they were going to tell us, I was a little skeptical at first. But, boy, the things that we have learned from those hearings are earth-shattering.