Summary
The Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade. Interview with Rep. Barbara Lee (D-CA).
Transcripts
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris.
It has been -- I mean, this week has been pretty amazing, in terms of just the intensity of the news. You and I have just been communicating off line about what`s been happening, but today, I mean, fantastic hour. There`s only so much of the can be said, you know?
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST, "ALL IN": Yeah. You know, I just had a weird out of body experience where I was reading the intro, where I heard myself from like a dystopian movie, saying, you know, like you would play in a film real, right? Roe is overturned, and if there is something that is still chillingly surreal about it.
MADDOW: I remember in 2016 after those a shocking result of the 2016 election, people projecting into a dystopian future, with what would headlines look like, given that the election went that way. And this is one of them, and it didn`t happen while president Trump was in office, but it happened because he was in office, and it just took us long to get there.
I remember saying on our air, in 2018, when Justice Kennedy retired, that one of the consequences of that would be that abortion would be illegal in half the country within two years. And I was wrong, it was four years. But the fact that this is foretold doesn`t make it any less shocking.
HAYES: Well, I`m going to go watch your show now.
MADDOW: Thanks, Chris. Good to see you, my friend. Thank you.
And thanks to you at home for being with us this hour. It`s a big day. When the Supreme Court first handed to overturn the decision in Roe, just shy of 50 years ago, it`s not that it was not controversial when it happened. There were definitely people who are opposed to the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, in particular the Catholic Church, would always been staunchly anti abortion.
But it wasn`t as controversial in 1973 yesterday`s politics about what it might make you think. For example, it was not a particularly controversial decision among American evangelicals.
The Southern Baptist Convention, Americas largest brought distant denomination, they adopted pro-abortion rights resolutions, regularly, during the 1970s, including after the Roe decision in 1973, the Southern Baptist`s.
When Roe was handed down and `73, the former president of the Southern Baptist convention welcomed it, and explained why. He said, quote: I have always felt that it was only after a child was born, and had a life separate from its mother, that it became an individual person. And it has always, there for, seems to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed. Southern Baptist Convention.
Reactions to Roe v. Wade were also really heterogeneous for a long time between the two political parties. There were plenty of antiabortion Democrats, and there were lots of pro-choice Republicans. Republican governors wrote the forefront of the criminalizing abortion in the states in the 1960s, including the governor of California, a man named Ronald Reagan. In 1967, Ronald Reagan signed into law the most liberal abortion rights bill in the country in California.
So, it`s not that there was not disagreement over abortion, or that there weren`t strong feelings from various quarters about Roe versus Wade. But it was different. And specifically, it wasn`t really a politics issue. It wasn`t an issue that suede election, or that was a key part of the two parties political platforms. Contrary to popular belief, Roe versus Wade in 1973 did not spark some kind of immediate big backlash among conservatives, and evangelicals and Republicans. It evolved differently, and it`s important to know that today.
The anti-abortion movement as an explicitly political project, a movement married to the Republican Party, that had to be deliberately created. It did not organically emerge. And it actually did not happen until years after Roe was decided.
I mean, the influential right-wing pro segregation religious leader, Jerry Falwell, his first antiabortion segment was not until 1978, more than five years after Roe. Even as late as 1980, when Ronald Reagan by then was no longer governor of California, he was running for president. In august 1980, Reagan gave a speech to 10,000 cheering evangelicals in a Dallas arena, and he talked about creationism, and the bible.
He talked about how evangelical institutions ought to be able to remain racially segregated, if they wanted. That`s nice. But even then, he did not mention abortion.
The plan to use abortion as a right-wing political organizing tool, to try, for example, to move Catholics to the Republican Party, to give a focal point, a policy focus, to right-wing, Republican organizing against women`s rights. It was a choice for them. It was a project that did not emerge organically. It was something they didn`t really start working on in earnest until the 1980s.
Ronald Reagan, for example, he personally had to do a U-turn. He had to repudiate the abortion rights bill that he had signed as a California governor, when he became the first president to make opposition to abortion a central part of his political identity.
[21:05:06]
His personal transformation on this issue shows the political transformation that was happening in the Republican Party on this issue, too.
Pretty soon, opposition to abortion would become effectively an entry requirement for elected officials and the Republican Party. And then, pretty soon after that, anywhere Republicans have political power, they would use it to attack abortion rights.
The states became laboratories for these policies. They became almost mechanized overtime, but as soon as one Republican-controlled state would innovate and come up with some new way to restrict abortion rights, all the other Republican controlled states would then follow. The most restrictive laws allowed to stand by the federal courts, would and become the template for all the other Republican controlled states, to try to enact those most restrictive rules too.
Wanting to ban worsen became much as the litmus test. Questions for Republican would be elected officials, at overtime, they made sure it was the litmus test for judges to be nominated by Republican presidents.
And at first, it was kind of tacit, like everybody knew it, but nobody would admit to it, a wink a nod between Republican White Houses and conservative activists. By 2016, though, Republican President Donald Trump just made it official. He was known, obviously, for saying the quiet part out loud, by 2016, he was flat out saying that I would only nominate justices who will overturn Roe.
And he did. And sure today, we have the results, often not just these justices ascending to the court, we have the result of a concerted political project that is attached to the Republican Party that started 40 years ago for political reasons. And I know there`s a lot to say about the court, and the reasoning of today`s ruling, and the individual justices who did this. And indeed, the individual states, there are new laws, and how fast the curtain is coming down, and we`re going to do something about that over the course of this hour.
But I think to know where we are and to know what`s coming next here, we have to get real about who did this, and how they did it, because this is part of a political project. This is a 40 years in the making project. For big, well staffed, well funded, very radical project of the American political right and the Republican Party.
And I say it`s very radical, on purpose. I mean that both in terms of its aims, we`re seeing that today, but also, in terms of its tactics. It`s and polite to say this I know, but the antiabortion wing of the conservative movement and Republican Party has long had an armed wing, a terrorist wing, this killed a lot of Americans in the past few decades, and set off a lot of bombs, for terroristic purposes.
And that is terrible. And criminal, but it is undeniable that that is part of how the extreme right approached their role in this issue, and how to get what they want on this issue over these past 40 years. That has existed alongside the well staffed, well funded, well organized advocacy groups, and think tanks, and campus groups.
The antiabortion political project off the Republican Party and the political right has been the central organizing principle for the rights entire effort around the judiciary. One for wishing there still no match or mirror on the left. It`s a big deal. It`s a big multi generational, again, well-funded, tightly organized, and extremely, extremely militant American political project.
And I think what`s important to see today is that for them, this is not a movement that just got what it wanted, and now will go away. This is a movement that they have been building for 40 years, that is just now hitting its stride. That is just coming into maturity.
I mean, this is a movement that can claim six of the nine members of the Supreme Court. We think of Chief Justice Roberts as the moderate justice among them, but you know what? When he was nominated part of his bio was he was the spouse of the leader of an anti abortion organization.
I mean, the antiabortion political project of the American right is a way of life for people on the American right. It is an industry. It`s an employer. It`s a big movement that has succeeded now as of today, at the first top of the list thing they wanted to. Why would you think they would stop now?
Now, when they are really feeling and starting to show what they can do. I mean, Justice Amy Coney Barrett is 50 years old. She could be on the court another 40 years. Justice Gorsuch is 54 years old.
Vice President Pence`s immediate reaction to today`s ruling came down was to crow about how we now need a nationwide abortion ban. Don`t leave it to the states, ban it nationwide.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi today pointed right at that, as what to expect next from them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: In the Congress, be aware of this -- the Republicans are plotting a nationwide abortion ban.
[21:10:08]
They cannot be allowed to have a majority in the Congress to do that. But that`s their goal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: That`s their goal.
This is where we are. Of course, as long as a Democrat is president, any Democratic president would veto a nationwide abortion ban, a ban passed by Republican-controlled Congress. But there`s a presidential election around the corner. Any Republican president would sign a nationwide abortion ban without hesitation.
That said, if we are being real about this, that question might be moot by the time we have a next Republican president. Because there is nothing in the reasoning of today`s opinion from the six justices that would stop them from accepting something like a fetal personhood case. Fetal personhood is a concept that the right has been building in this political movement, that they`ve built around the abortion issue -- a fetal person could case, get into this court, would give the court a path to not just let individual states ban abortion, which is what they did today.
If they took a fetal personhood case, that could be their vehicle to impose a nationwide ban on abortion, on the order of the United States Supreme Court. When that would apply, yes, even in California, even in New York, even in anywhere. And yes, that would be a radical thing for the Supreme Court to do.
But wouldn`t be that much more radical them but they have done today? I mean, they`ve kind of broken the seal here, haven`t they? Roe was a 50- year-old precedent that had been reaffirmed by the Supreme Court, by itself, multiple times. That did not matter to them at all today.
Yesterday, they took a 111-year-old law on concealed weapons in New York -- a 111 year old law -- and threw that out as well. I mean, what`s the principle at work there? States cannot be trusted with the power to regulate concealed handguns but they can force you to give birth to a child against your will.
A 111-year-old precedent, one 50-year-old precedent, what`s the consistent principle between these two different rulings? Only consistent principle between these two rulings in two days is that conservatives have power on this court. And they will now wielded however they want, to achieve whatever outcomes they want, to change the country however they want without restriction. And you must do what they say.
But again, I think it is helpful to not try to find some evolution in conservative jurisprudence here. This isn`t that kind of ruling. This is a political project. This is the culminating work of a concerted political project. That to find this as a goal for the American political right and that put in place the people who would enacted.
This is a very well-organized, well-staffed, well-funded, very committed, very radical -- in its prime -- movement. That still sees it as a problem that the blue states are still going to have abortion rights. I mean, overturning Roe today immediately effectuate outright bans on abortion in many states. So, we are going to talk about this that over the course of this hour.
But it also really does foreshadow a future case, perhaps quickly, a future ruling, in which the Supreme Court will outright ban abortion themselves in every state. And it is worth getting real about that.
Justice Thomas today in his concurrence spelled out the rights that he wants thrown out next beyond abortion, now that they`ve taken care of Roe. He wants Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell, in his words, reconsidered, which means he wants them overthrown. Those three cases are about contraception, consensual sex between adults and same-sex marriage, which means next on Clarence Thomas`s list are to get rid of all those things.
If you are in the same sex marriage, this may be the time to start thinking about duplicative legal arrangements to protect you and your spouse, your family, your kids, your property, your finances. If this court moves quickly on Justice Thomas`s list of what rights they are going to abolish next, being in a same-sex marriage now means there is a target on you from this court, and this court has proven themselves to be absolutely unconstrained, and only by precedent, not only by consistency of previous reasoning, but from any concern for public opinion. Take that seriously.
Tactically, that notice from Justice Thomas today, lining up those righties ready to get rid of next, I believe that will have a practical effect on this political movement from which he and his colleagues have emerged. He has put out that list now of what they are going to go after next. He put it in writing, in his concurrence today, watch for action in response to that, watch for people involved in the political movement to start teeing up cases to get them to Justice Thomas, to get the job done.
On marriage rights, watch for county clerk somewhere to refuse a license to a couple trying to get married, in order to start court proceedings that would put marriage back in front of this court. Watch for somebody who works at a health facility somewhere to refuse to process a prescription or an order for contraception, for an IUD, for the pale. Again, to start litigation, to start legal proceedings, which will eventually put access to contraception before this court.
They have asked for it, and the movement they come from will give them that. Watch for Texas or another controlled state to bring back its sodomy law, to control with whom you are allowed to have sex and how. They will try to bring back that law. It will start legal proceedings that will eventually be designed to put sodomy laws back in front of this court. They have asked for, the movement they come from will give them that opportunity.
They are unconstrained in seeking to change the country in these ways. I mean, for them, the dam has burst. What do you see in their behavior that would give you any reason to believe that they see any reason to stop?
In the short run, we do now have abortion bans in effect in multiple states as of right now, because of today`s ruling already. We are going to be talking about that in more detail over the course of the hour. One of the short run consequences of that is not just the number of states but the actual number of buildings, the actual number of facilities, in which an abortion can legally be provided in America, has just shrunk radically. The number of legal abortion providers in America has today radically contracted.
And that means the existing extant still working abortion providers in this country now stand out more, to the people who have been targeting them for decades. It means that the people from the terroristic side of the anti abortion movement will now have a smaller number of higher profile targets the target.
We should take that seriously, at a time when violence against abortion providers is already spiking, the providers who are now left in the states where it is not banned yet -- those providers are facing a lot of changes. They are going to have to operate now with a higher volume of patients, people coming from further away, people therefore coming in later in their pregnancies, which means potentially more complicated procedures because of that.
But they also are going to have to cope, on top of all that, they are going to have to cope with a higher threat environment than they are used to, because the anti-abortion movement, feeling its oats, really does have an armed terrorist wing that shoots people. And that`s been true for decades. It has never been more crucial to protect abortion providers.
The Department of Homeland Security today released a notification to law enforcement officials around the country of potential domestic violence extremist activity following the courts act ruling.
Also in the short term, aka, now -- the underground plants for gray market and black market abortions, those also now go into effect. It`s go time. Nobody ever plans to have an unplanned pregnancy.
But that means other people who support women have to plan for women who will suddenly find themselves in desperate circumstances. Those networks have long been nascent. Those networks have long been in the works. Those networks have long been training.
They now are coming online. So, women can still get help, so they don`t have to try to face their crisis alone, whether or not it`s legal.
But I will close with this point. Not just for pregnant women but for all Americans. Today starts a new era of very, very, very, very, very big government, very intrusive government.
Do you want to start a family or have your first child? Or maybe you have a child or children already, you would like to have one more. Mazel tov, congratulations, it`s a beautiful thing. Everybody with a heart wishes you all the best.
In this country, though, now, the decision tree for you is now much more complex than it was before. Now, obviously, most wanted pregnancies are safe and straightforward and they end with the happiest possible news. But sadly, many don`t. Because of what the court did today, if, god forbid, you have a miscarriage in your pregnancy, now in some states, that will be more than a personal tragedy. That will be a matter of public record and potentially public investigation.
Your miscarriage will be viewed as a potential crime. Are you suspected of having induced that miscarriage? Did the police want to talk to you about some questions they have about whether somebody else might have been boosted for you? I mean, how do you plan to prove that it happened on its own in an actual course? How can you prove it? These officers are going to need to speak with you.
Think about how that gets enforced. Think about the relationship between American women and the government in this environment. How do authorities know if you`ve miscarried in the first place?
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Would somebody heard you are pregnant or they thought you might be pregnant and now it seems like you are not. How is an investigation conducted? How is the state government in your state -- how are your police locally going to check to see if maybe you had been pregnant and now you are not, and did you just committed felony?
If you seek care at a hospital in the event of a miscarriage, the drug you are most often given is treatment for a miscarriage is the same drug that Republican lawmakers are now trying to treat as an illegal instrument of abortion in their states. Even if you have just had a miscarriage naturally, in the natural course of events, you will likely be treated for that miscarriage with medication they are targeting with their abortion bans. Your use of that drug may make you a criminal suspect. And make the exact scene and circumstance of your miscarriage a crime scene, even if it was in the hospital.
In some states, even if the complication in your pregnancy is a risk to your health, if continuing the to carry the pregnancy could injure, doctors in some states would be forced to stand by and deliberately inflict that risk on you, by forcing you to keep the pregnancy going against your will, because otherwise they will face jail. What does that do to the relationship between you and your doctor? What does that do, again, to the relationship between you as an American woman in your government?
If you have the kind of complication in your pregnancy where the pregnancy is not viable, where the baby cannot live, in some states you now may be forced by the state government, under threat of criminal prosecution, to nevertheless carry the non viable pregnancy to term.
Think about how that gets enforced. Think about what that means about the relationship between you, as an American citizen, and your government, that is forcing that out of you.
Today starts an era of very, very, very big government, where it`s the government that decides if you are going to have a baby or not. Or it`s the government that is in charge of your pregnancy. For women who have an unwanted, unwanted planted planned pregnancy, the nightmare is here. In many ways, though, it is also no here for any woman who wants a child, who wants to have a baby and now -- I mean, until today, this was an area of life in which we had some privacy, to make our own decisions.
Now, at least for now, in Republican-controlled states, it`s the police. It`s the state, knock, knock.
Joining us now is Amy Hagstrom Miller. She`s founder and CEO Whole Woman`s Health, an independent abortion provider with locations in five states, including the great state of Texas.
Ms. Hagstrom Miller, thank you for being here today. I know this has been an ordeal already today.
AMY HAGSTROM MILLER, FOUNDER AND CEO, WHOLE WOMAN`S HEALTH: Thank you for having me, Rachel, and I so appreciate your expertise on this issue.
MADDOW: I don`t know if I have expertise as much as today I have feelings I`m trying not to let them show.
I want to show our viewers what is on the website for your organization right now. I think we have the screenshot right now. It says, the Supreme Court just turned its back on abortion rights. We never will.
They just turn their back on millions of people across the country who need abortion care. We will never do that. We are here. We are not going away ever.
And then you list your clinics that are still open and still offering what services they can. Amy, can you just talk a little bit about what it was like at your clinics today? What it was like today for your staff and for the patients who are being seen at your clinics today?
HAGSTROM MILLER: You know, Rachel, today has been a very difficult day, even the most planning and the most anticipation can`t prepare us for a day when this kind of announcement happens. We really lived into different Americas today, even more than we have in the past, where we had to stop all abortion care in the state of Texas, while at the same time, focus on opening our doors and expanding our welcoming of people in Virginia, Maryland and Minnesota.
That split is super difficult to navigate. We have been helping people leave Texas now, for almost ten months, since SB8 was passed in Texas. We started a program, called the Way Finder program, but literally helps people find their way, when they are denied abortion in one state, to a place where they can receive that abortion, or care.
And we have help people with flights. We have helped people learn how to fly for the first time. We have never left their home states, who didn`t have ID, who didn`t even know how to check into a hotel. And this was just with Texas`s abortion ban.
What we`re facing right now in this country`s devastating, and it denies so many people access to safe abortion care that we have come to count on for 50 years. And it has allowed us to plan our families. It has allowed women to dream of future for themselves with quality and autonomy that is equal to men.
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Whether you ever had an abortion or not, you were allowed to know that you would be able to have one, if you need one. And it has allowed us to build a future for ourselves. It is fundamentally equal, and that has been taken from us today.
Now, we have people forced to carry pregnancies against their well, and my staff in Texas had to say that to people, to their faces today. My staff in Texas had to bear the burden of the spam, saying to people that they would be denied the care that they needed, when we are fully trained, and capable and ready to provide it. We changed the course of peoples` lives today with this ban, both in good ways, in haven states, where we can be proud that it is still relevant, and in lawful ways in places like Texas, where we had deny people the care they deserve from us.
MADDOW: When you talked about the organization, what it has already done, terms of helping women in Texas, where a de facto ban has been in place for almost ten months now, helping woman in Texas get to other states already, that experience that your organization has been through is really important for the Texas woman you served. It may also serve as a template and as a sort of lessons learned opportunity for lots of people, lots of places around the country that are now going to be trying to open up, essentially, and underground railroad, paths for women to, as you say, find their way.
Are there lessons learned? Are there things that you thought about the way those efforts would go that didn`t earn out that way? Are there things and that -- is their advice that you would give, to doing that kind of work now, all over the country, given that you have been doing it in Texas for ten months?
HAGSTROM MILLER: Yes, absolutely. And we have independent abortion providers like Whole Woman`s Health collaborating with abortion funds all over the country, and collaborating with clinics in places where abortions have been banned, and trying to partner with our clinics in places where abortion is safe. And we will protect it.
And the Way Finder program we developed at Whole Woman`s Health alliance is a program that we, you know, we had to develop, because of this terrible ban in Texas. We have learned so much from what goes on with our patients when they`re trying to navigate, not only the unplanned pregnancy had been denied the abortion, but like I said, flying for the first time. Most of our patients are parenting already, almost 70 percent. Almost 70 percent are navigating work and childcare during the pandemic.
We`ve had people drive from McAllen, Texas all the way to Alexandria, Virginia. That`s a three-day drive, with their children, in the car, because they didn`t have childcare. They come all the way to us and Alexandria, Virginia, have an abortion, given their car, and drive all the way home, like overnight, so that they can get to work on time, and not lose their job.
This is the reality. We have people who don`t have an idea how to fly. We have folks who can`t afford hotels, so even if our abortion fund covers the hotel, or any other organization funds it, governs that hotel, in Alexandria, or in Charlottesville or in Baltimore, you can`t even check into hotel because the hotel requires a credit card to check in.
These are folks who don`t have credit cards. They`ve never used Uber. They`ve never used Lyft. They deserve our compassion. They deserve those of us who are determined to build a network of support and compassion to help people navigate this abortion ban, and navigate the travel, if they`re able to travel. In order for them to get the abortion that they need.
MADDOW: Amy Hagstrom Miller, the founder and CEO of Whole Woman`s Health - - Amy, appreciate you being here tonight. I know it`s been a long day. You don`t have to be talking to us about this, thank you. And good luck to you and your staff.
MILLER: Thank you so much, Rachel. I appreciate it.
MADDOW: All right, we`ve a lot to get to. We`ve been showing live images of protests that are underway in a number of places around the country, including outside the United States Supreme Court, as we speak.
Coming up next, the very real thing that activists are doing, that Amy was just describing, they`re trying to help women get abortions and states that are outlawing it, talking about some of the practical nuts and bolts.
Much more ahead. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): If you live in a stat abortion is legal, and accessible, now is the time to give to abortion care providers, abortion groups. Now is the time to open your home to people who are crossing state lines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:34:15]
MADDOW: Just moments ago, we were talking about how Texas got their first, and what can now be seen as a test case, a sort of pilot for the whole country, Texas has been living with the de facto abortion ban for ten months now. When the Supreme Court first let that Texas ban go into effect in September, we spoke with an organization called Funds Texas Choice, a group you just heard mentioned. They are one of several organizations that has been doing practical, nuts and bolts logistical work to get Texas women moved out of state, so they can get an abortion somewhere else where it was still illegal.
That means money for travel expenses, hotel accommodations, child care is very granular, very personal sometimes, very heart wrenching, practical work.
I want to show you, here`s how the Fund Texas Choice website looked yesterday.
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This is it yesterday. In all caps, We Fund Texans Travel to Abortion Clinics. Abortion is still legal and we are here to help. That was yesterday.
Today, that page is now gone for the website. You can see they now have this stark update listed there. It says, Fund Texas Choices taking some time to evaluate its operations in light of the reason recent decision in Jackson Women`s Health versus Dobbs. We are undertaking substantial consideration to ensure the organization is in compliance with the law in the new landscape for abortion rights.
Joining us now is Anna Rupani. She is co-executive director of Fund Texas Choice.
Ms. Rupani, thank you for taking the time to talk to us tonight again. I know you have the choice to do it and I really appreciate you deciding to be here with us.
ANNA RUPANI, CO-EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, FUND TEXAS CHOICE: Thanks for having me.
MADDOW: Tell us about what happened at your organization today.
RUPANI: It`s a tough day. I -- most of our routine was pretty defeated. We`ve been preparing for this moment for months. And Texas has been living in a post-Roe future for ten plus months.
And so, you know, it feels like, oh, if it`s here, we know what to do. But honestly, it`s like a grieving parent, right? You know or you are grieving a loss a parent that you know is coming. But when it happens, it hits you harder. And that`s what today was like.
Everyone was crying. We were working long hours, weeks, all the weeks leading up to this, even yesterday. I was working with a team member, playing interpreter for a client, just to make sure we could get them to their abortion, if Dobbs were to come today.
And here we are today, we`re working with our attorneys to figure out what we can and can`t do. Because the opinion is -- it`s complicated. And so we are trying to figure out what is and isn`t allowed at the moment.
MADDOW: That was part of other wanted to talk to you about, the complexity, because, obviously, Texas has multiple anti abortion laws on the books. Some of them conflict with one another. There`s also the issue of timing and the attorney general making a Twitter announcement today that all abortion is illegal, all of which is hard to parse in terms of the weight actually manifests on the ground.
But is it clear to you yet whether or now this is still okay in Texas to fund and arrange and help a woman leave the state for the purposes of getting an abortion in another state? Do you have clarity on that?
RUPANI: Not at the moment.
MADDOW: Wow.
RUPANI: And that`s really what we are trying to get figured out. We are trying to have understanding on if Fund Texas Choice were to continue the way it were yesterday, what would that look like? So, we need to know what we can and can`t do in the bounds of the law.
That`s hard to know, in a state like Texas, because we know that, although Roe was before, it was really hard and inaccessible for Texans to get to their abortions anyway, right? We already spent tens of thousands of dollars to send Texans out of the state before SB8.
And now, we were struggling to figure out what more complications are there for Texans. And not just Texans, rights? Americans as a whole. Anyone who lives in the United States.
It`s not just Texas that has these bans. It`s multiple states that have these bans. And we saw an increase in mileage, of mileage traveled by folks when Oklahoma closed its doors. So, imagine now, no nearby states have access, what is going to happen.
And so, we just don`t know and we want to get clarity, so we can make sure we are following the law and we`re not doing anything to risk our team. We`re not doing anything to risk the pregnant people that are traveling. And so we can stay in existence long term, so we can continue to try to do this fight the right way.
MADDOW: Anna Rupani is co-executive director of Fund Texas Choice, which remains in operations despite this pause, to figure how to operate in the new legal landscape here.
Anna, thank you for joining us. Good luck to you and your staff. Stay in touch with us in the days ahead. We will be interested to see what you learn and how you decide to proceed.
RUPANI: Thank you.
MADDOW: All right. We`ve got much more ahead tonight. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was 18 when Roe v. Wade went into effect. And it was like it was a gift. I felt like my government understood that I was a human being that could make up my own mind. How do they have the right to tell me or any woman what she can do with her body?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:44:19]
MADDOW: California Congresswoman Barbara Lee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BARBARA LEE (D-CA): So, I got pregnant as a teenager. I was -- I had just turned 16. And quite frankly, I really didn`t know what had happened to me.
My mother took me into the doctor. And God bless my mother, she had a friend who is still a good friend. And she is in her 90s, who she knew, very well, in El Paso -- one of her best friends in El Paso, Texas.
She called her friend and she told her friend what was going on with me. And her friend said, send her to me.
My first airplane ride, from California to El Paso, Texas. And my mother`s friend said, look, I know a really good doctor.
[21:45:02]
But he`s in a back alley clinic in Mexico.
I was terrified. I didn`t know what was taking place. And in fact, I survived.
And why it is so important now for me to tell the story is, I don`t want any woman to ever have to go through that. I think it`s my duty now, as hard as this is, to talk about it, because I know it`s going to happen again if we don`t stop what`s taking place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: California Congresswoman Barbara Lee is speaking with NBC reporter Ali Vitali several months ago, talking about the threat that those days would come back, those days before Roe, including which he experienced as a teenage girl.
Here we are. Joining us now is Democratic Congresswoman Barbara Lee.
Congresswoman Lee, it`s really great to have you with us tonight. Thank you.
LEE: Rachel, I`m really happy to be with you. I want to thank you for taking such a deep dive on this issue, which could be very deadly.
We knew this was coming. But it is still gut-wrenching. This is the first time that a constitutional right has been taken away.
What`s next? It`s going to be voting rights? Is it going to be marriage equality? Is it going to be civil rights? Is it going to be a ban on interracial marriages?
What the heck? This is a fundamental right, a democratic right that`s being taken away. This is the beginning of the erosion of our democracy.
MADDOW: What do you say to people who are despondent over this? To people who despair?
Obviously, we are seeing some anger in the streets tonight. Peaceful protests happening outside the Supreme Court and another state capitals around the city and the country. There`s anger there. But I think we have to pick a word for the large, pro-choice majority in this country, there`s despondency and there is the spare. What do you say to people who are feeling that way?
LEE: I say to people, I understand, I feel it also. But do you know what? The only way we are going to beat this is to fight back.
We have to galvanize. We have to organize. We have to -- first of all, that Mitch McConnell doesn`t establish a national abortion ban. That means we have to vote in November and we have to vote to keep the House, and we have to vote to keep the Senate.
Democrats, we have the largest pro-choice Democratic caucus now. And we have to keep that. We have to be that resistance movement. And people -- most people don`t know the world now, Rachel, without Roe.
So, I think this has really galvanized people around the country, who may or may not have been involved in politics. But we have to make sure that people know that their voice will count and that they must vote and help us organize because despair and despondency is not going to stop Mitch McConnell from establishing a national ban.
And also, let me just say, they are things we can do right now. I am personally raising money for people who cannot travel. We have so many Black and Brown young people, people who are low wage workers and in red states and states where these trigger laws are in place.
They need help. They need to be able to travel when they decide to exercise their freedom in terms of reproductive freedom and travel. We have to be able to help them move and lead the state, so they can get their abortion.
I mean, so, that`s what we need to do right now. I`m working to help raise money for that effort.
MADDOW: Life has always been a little different. And life prospects have always been a little different in right states versus blue states. That`s always been true over the course of my lifetime. For women, life opportunities, life choices and bodily autonomy is about to be radically different between red states and blue states, broadly speaking, places where abortion is banned, and places where it`s legal.
I wonder, I was thinking about your experience as a 16-year-old girl, from California, getting on an airplane for the first time, leaving California, going to Texas. I was thinking about this experience of Texas.
Ten percent of all the women of reproductive age of America live in Texas. They`ve been operating under a de facto ban already for the past ten months.
Are we becoming a retrievably divided between blue governed states and right govern states in this country in a way that is getting dangerous? This feels like a profound break.
LEE: It`s very dangerous, Rachel. But I`ll tell you one thing -- the public supports abortion access and the right for a person to make their own personal health care decisions, whether one agrees with abortion or not. And I think it`s up to us to ensure that the 75 percent of the public who gets eaten who supports this really helps to work to make sure that we elect local and state officials who are going to respect a person`s health care decisions.
And let me tell you the other thing. Now, just as I was afraid, just because it was illegal, now abortions will be criminalized in many of these states.
[21:50:03]
I was fearful when I left California. I knew it was illegal in California. It was illegal in Texas, it was illegal in Mexico. And I was terrified. I mean, terrified.
And so now we are going to have to make sure that we let people know that we are going to have the resources. We are going to circle the wagons and we are going to make sure that we let people know that we are going to have the resources. We are going to circle the wagons and we are going to make sure that they are not arrested and criminalized.
But this is a political struggle. It`s a generational struggle now. And so yes, the divide is great. And it`s very dangerous. But it gives us a moment now to galvanize and work with a 75 percent who may or may not, as I said, I`ve been political or have been voted and make sure that we engage people at the voting booth, because the ballot box is where it`s at.
And so we will see these elected officials in November. And I`m hoping that people wake up and understand that we`ve got to elect state, local and federal officials who want to protect reproductive freedom and personal liberties.
MADDOW: Congresswoman Barbara Lee, Democrat of California -- Congresswoman, it`s always a pleasure to have you. Difficult circumstances tonight. Thank you for your time.
LEE: Thank you, Rachel. Thank you for being such a voice for us in doing this deep dive. It`s very important.
MADDOW: Barely keep -- barely keeping it together tonight, ma`am. I have to tell you.
All right, we`ve got more ahead tonight. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL; BREAK)
[21:55:30]
MADDOW: Watching dominoes falling, one by one, over the course of the day today. Kentucky`s trigger law bans abortion immediately, with Roe reversal.
And then it was Louisiana. Abortion Louisiana is illegal immediately after Supreme Court ruling.
Then, it was South Dakota. Abortion is now illegal in South Dakota.
Then it was Missouri that drop next. Abortion banned in Missouri. Its trigger law takes effect, following a Supreme Court ruling.
Then it was Arkansas. Abortions in Arkansas are illegal. The Arkansas Department of Health sent the Planned Parenthood letter today. They said, please be advised, purposely performing or attempting to perform in abortion is a felony punishable by up to ten years imprisonment.
And that`s Arkansas. Next is Oklahoma. End of Roe makes abortion a crime, as state abortion trigger law takes effect. And now, actually, just in the last hour, abortion banned in Utah, now that Roe v. Wade is overturned.
This is not a drill. This is happening, this is today.
Joining us now is Dahlia Lithwick, senior editor and legal correspondent for Slate.com.
Dahlia, I appreciate your time to be here. Thank you.
DAHLIA LITHWICK, SENIOR EDITOR AND LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, SLATE.COM: Thanks, Rachel.
MADDOW: I wanted to ask you about its other rights too argument that I made at the top of the show, and that was made by the dissenting level justices today when they said that no one should be confident that this majority is done with its work, the right that Roe and Casey recognized does not stand-alone.
What do you think about those fears?
LITHWICK: I mean, we are in a tricky position, right? We can either take Justices Alito and Kavanaugh at their word when they say, oh, this stops at Roe and there`s a principle difference between Roe and Obergefell, which protect same-sex marriage, and Lawrence, which protects intimate conduct. And Loving versus Virginia, which protects interracial marriage, and Griswold, which protects contraception.
And we can take them at their word when they say it stops here. I`ve analogize this throughout to pulling a Jenga piece out and saying, this one, this one, it`s different. But it all comes under the same bucket of rights, these sort of unenumerated, you know, substantive due process rights. And to say that this is different because life is involved, particularly from people like Alito and Kavanaugh, who told us during the hearings that they believed in stare decisis rings kind of hollow.
So, in some sense, I prefer Clarence Thomas` take, Rachel, where he just straight-up says, I`m coming after Obergefell, I`m coming after Lawrence, on coming after Griswold, because at least it`s principled. He saying all of them should fall together, the whole Jenga house should come down. And at least I don`t have to sit around and wait for the justices to tell us when stare decisis applies and when it doesn`t.
So, I`m finding a very hard, when Justice Alito says, trust me, I`m not coming after those other rights.
MADDOW: Dahlia, while we`ve been talking, we`ve been showing some of the images around the country, including people drop blocking traffic in Los Angeles. There is a lot of people around the court. There`s a lot of people on a lot of cities, a lot of American streets filled up with protesters right now.
What do you think about the court defying public opinion in this case? Obviously, they are not governed by public opinion and they don`t have to care. But the American people, by a 2 to 1 margin, thought that Roe should be upheld. And there`s a lot of anger in response to this. It`s going to have a lot of effects on peoples lives, and the most intimate things on their lives.
What do we look for in terms of the court being sustained as an institution in the wake of this?
LITHWICK: It`s so telling, Rachel, that everything that Amy said and that Anna said and that Congresswoman Lee said about life experience in this kind of reign of terror, what it`s like to be miscarrying right now and not know that you are safe, what it`s like to have an appointment tomorrow that you can no longer go to -- nothing about that is in Justice Alito. Women, the lives they`ve lived, the anxiety, how triggering it is for all of us who have miscarried, to be thinking again, holy cow, this could have been me a few years ago.
It is horrifying and it is invisible, in the majority opinion. I think the court not only got out of step, deeply out of step, with public opinion -- by the way, not just on this, but on the gun`s case yesterday, whereby similar margins, Americans hate this outcome.
But I think that the utter lack of solicitude for the reality of the trauma that is being imposed, both by mass shootings yesterday and by unbelievable terror of prosecution, of being spied, on a vigilantism, that rebounds from today -- the fact that the court didn`t even think beyond saying, yeah, I guess there`s going to be some outcomes, not on us to worry about it -- I think that`s what`s at the heart of what is so, so maddening today.
MADDOW: Dahlia Lithwick, senior editor and legal correspondent for slate.com -- Dahlia, it`s a really important day. Thanks for being with us.
LITHWICK: Thanks, Rachel.
MADDOW: All right. That is going to do it for us for now. I will see you again on Monday. It will be back here for THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW Monday night.
Now, it`s time for "THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL".
Good evening, Lawrence.