Summary:
"The Washington Post" tonight is reporting that the January 6th investigation in Congress is looking at a number of different ways that Trump and his administration try to get him to use the emergency powers of the president, how he tried to use them to overthrow the election. The Michigan Republicans this weekend put two fire-breathing conspiracy theorists forward as Republican Party`s official nominees this year for Michigan attorney general and Michigan secretary of state.
Transcript:
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Helene Cooper, as always, great to have you on. Thank you very much.
That is "ALL IN" on this Wednesday night.
THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW starts right now.
Good evening Rachel.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Thank you, Chris. Much appreciated, my friend.
HAYES: You bet.
MADDOW: And thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. I`m happy to have you here.
I`m just going to jump right in here tonight. I do not think there is any way to ease into this. I don`t think there is any setup I can give you that would make this any more normal. No context I can provide you that would make this less weird. It is what it is and it stands on its own terms. Ready?
Here we go. Question: Mr. President, you said that if you see someone getting ready to throw a tomato, just knock the crap out of them. Would you? That was your statement? Answer, Trump: Oh yeah, it was very dangerous.
Question: What was dangerous? Answer, Trump: We were threatened.
Question: With what? Answer, Trump: They were going to throw through fruit. We were threatened. We had a threat.
Question: How did you become aware that there was a threat that people were going to throw fruit. Answer, Trump: We were told -- I thought the Secret Service was involved in that, actually. But we were told that if you get hit with fruit it is very violent stuff. We were on alert for that.
Question: A tomato is a fruit, after all, I guess? Answer, Trump: And you know what? Interjection from lawyer. Judicial notice, please.
Apparently that is agreed to, at which point Trump`s own lawyer jumps in and says, it has seeds, meaning a tomato has seeds. Therefore it is a fruit.
Trump then continues: It`s worse than tomato. It is other things also. But tomato, when they start doing that stuff, it`s very dangerous.
That is actually literally the transcript. But, tomato, when they start doing that stuff, it`s very dangerous.
Question: Who were you speaking to when you said -- Answer, Trump: the audience.
Question: So, you are speaking to the audience when they said, if they saw someone getting ready to throw a tomato, just knock the crap out of them, would you? Answer, Trump: That was to the audience. It was said sort of ingest. But maybe there was a little truth to it. It is very dangerous stuff. You can get killed with those things.
Question: So, we`re trying to incentivize people to engage of in violence? Trump`s lawyer, objection. Trump answers anyway, Trump: No, I want to do have people be ready. We wanted there to be people on alert that they were going to do fruit. And some is a lot worse than -- tomatoes are bad, by the way. But it`s very dangerous.
Question: Do you have any knowledge around whether someone was found have tomatoes in their possession that date? Answer, Trump: I don`t know, but it didn`t happen. It worked out that nothing happened. It was -- the speech was good.
Question: You said you are talking to the audience. But is the same through of your security? Do you expect your security to knock the crap out of someone if they seize out -- answer, Trump: I was talking to the audience.
Question: Mr. President, please let me finish the question. So that we can get the record clear. Is it your expectation that if your security guards see someone about to throw a tomato, that they should knock the crap out of that person? Answer, Trump: Well, a tomato, a pineapple, a lot of other things they throw. Yep! I think they have to be aggressive in stopping that from happening. Because of that happens, you can be killed if that happens.
Question: And getting aggressive, in your terms? That includes the use of physical fierce force? Answer, Trump: To stop someone from throwing pineapples, tomatoes, bananas, stuff like that? Yeah, it`s dangerous stuff.
I am not smart enough to make something like this up. I am not smart enough to make up something this perceptive about how a particular man`s brain works. If I was, I could write amazing textbooks for political science classes about what to look for when trying to identify a person who should not be trusted with a lot of power. You imagine a pineapple might be thrown. And so, yeah, you could be killed.
And this is a deposition that was just released late last night. It`s a deposition taken from former President Donald Trump six months ago, in an ongoing civil case in New York about some protesters beaten up outside of Trump Tower shortly after Trump started his run for the presidency.
These protesters were beaten up by Trump security guards. And the protesters have contended in court that Trump was liable for them being beaten up that day because, they contend, that Trump directed his security guards to beat up the protesters. And as part of that making their case, the protesters are trying to get at Trump`s, as they would put it, Trump`s established pattern of him asking people to physically attack others.
[21:05:12]
Him asking people, particularly, to physically attack other people who are protesting against him. That argument, that line of argument in this civil case, that Trump directed their security guards to attack and physically beat up those protesters, that is a pattern that Trump has established and has publicly displayed. That line of argument in the civil case, that is why this video was actually played in that position ahead of the question I just read you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: So, if you see somebody getting ready to play throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously, okay? Just knocked the hell -- I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: That was in 2016, February 2016, which is actually after these plaintiffs were beaten up by Trump security guards outside of Trump Tower. But these plaintiffs contained in court that Trump publicly imploring other people to knock the bleep out of people protesting, people posing the terrifying threat of potentially throwing a tomato, that that shows the pattern of Trump ordering violence against protesters. Perhaps even violence out of keeping with any perceived threat the protesters might pose.
Now, throwing a tomato is actually a legal threat, though, what wouldn`t be justified? With the release of this deposition in this past day, we now know a whole new thing we didn`t know before about former President Trump, which is that he is apparently desperately afraid of a front flying tomato. I don`t know. If I was in his position, I am not sure I would let the world know I am having that kind of phobia. It exposes your weakness to the world, right?
But his fear of a flying tomato is apparently so all consuming that when confronted verbally with a discussion about the possibility of somebody throwing a tomato, he immediately extrapolates that from the tomato to the threat of a flying banana, and then to the threat of a flying pineapple. There it is. A tomato, a pineapple, a lot of other things they throw. Yeah, I think that they have to be aggressive in stopping that from happening, because if that happens, you can be killed if that happens.
Question: And getting aggressive includes the use of physical force? Trump: To stop somebody from throwing pineapples, tomatoes, bananas, stuff like that, yeah, it`s dangerous stuff.
Okay, sir, and how about we give you the nuclear codes for the United States of America? I mean, we have to get real. If there is an incoming banana, somebody is going to have to make the hard call because we all might die.
How do we unravel this? Did somebody throw a pineapple at this man? Does that explain everything since?
In addition to the fruit apocalypse fear window, this newly-released deposition does also have one potentially very salient exchange, not about fruit. But potentially about the criminal case that the former presidents business, the Trump Organization, is facing as soon as this summer, possibly this fall when it goes to trial.
You will recall that the Trump organization`s longtime CFO and the company itself have been criminally charged for an alleged pattern of tax fraud, in which, among other things, they are accused of compensating a bunch of different employees at the Trump organization, effectively off of the books as a way of evading taxes.
One of the employees about home whom those concerns have been raised is somebody who has not been charged. But somebody at who -- unfortunately, for our storytelling purposes, this is a guy who has a food related name. His name is Mr. Matthew Calamari. If you need a little memory help here, it`s okay if you think of him as Mr. Squid. But his name is Matthew Calamari.
And so, it`s the same transcript. This is the other part of that same transcript in which Trump is no longer talking about the lethal threat of tomatoes. In this case, he is talking about Mr. Squid. He is talking about how proud he is effectively that nobody else had anything to do with Mr. Calamari`s combination. That it was Trump who decided that alone with no one else involved.
Question: Do any other employees of the Trump Organization have authority with respect to Mr. Calamari`s conversation? Answer, Trump: It would be me.
[21:10:02]
Question: Has there ever been a time, from the time that Mr. Calamari was hired, when any other employee of the Trump Organization had authority over Mr. Calamari`s compensation? Answer, Trump: It`s a specific question but no, generally, it would be me. Okay. Answer, Trump: I`m the owner. Okay.
Question: Other than your children and you, is there any other employee of the Trump Organization without authority with respect to Mr. Calamari`s conversation? Answer, Trump: No, compensation generally was handled by me. He is just insisting. It`s almost like the lawyer for the other side is trying to give him an out and he is like, no, no, no, it`s all me. Can`t you tell the man in charge?
Again, the problem here, the broader context here is that the computation of Mr. Squid`s, the compensation of Mr. Calamari appears by some accounts to follow the same pattern of other Trump employees, whose payment arrangements with Mr. Trump`s company have now been charged in New York`s felony tax fraud. Mr. Calamari has not been charged. But his commutation arrangements appear to dovetail with the computation arrangements have turned into felony charges in New York already.
Here`s Trump insisting, oh, I`m the owner, oh, yeah, that`s me. No one else gets any say except for me. The lawyer is giving him options to blame it on other people. You sure you don`t want to drag the kids in here? You can blame anyone.
No, no. It is like, no, I am the man. I am impervious to all but tomatoes and pineapples and occasional bananas. It is I who robbed the bank. Of course I would have been in charge of that. It`s just like, fricking bananas, tomatoes, flying pineapples, crazy. Welcome to the ex-presidency of this guy.
As I mentioned, the criminal case against the former president`s company and its CFO, that trial is expected in court later this year, at the end of the summer with the beginning of the fall. We do not know if any additional charges will be brought in that case at all, particularly with the release of the deposition, in which Trump claims full personal pant responsibility for the computation of another employee, who appears to have been paid in a similar manner to the man who is here in hands cuff.
We have suspected over the last few days -- and today it was reported by CNN -- that the special grand jury convened in New York to hear evidence in the criminal cases expiring. Its term is up as of this weekend. The New York district attorney`s office, now run by a man named Alvin Bragg. It`s possible they will go through with the Trump Organization criminal trial later this year and may not bring additional charges. If they do want to bring additional charges, they could use another grand jury to hear more evidence for bringing more indictments. We just don`t know.
Then, in Fulton County, Georgia, there is the criminal case there, too. In Fulton County, Georgia, tonight, the special grand jury considering potential criminal charges against Trump there, that`s resulted in announcement this evening for Atlanta commuters. The process of seating the special grand jury that is going to consider special criminal charges against Trump in Georgia for his efforts to interfere with the election in Georgia in 2020. The seating of that special grand jury starts on Monday. It is kind of amazing timing.
The New York criminal grand jury`s looking as Trump`s business practices and it expires Saturday. The Georgia special grand jury considering criminal charges against Trump on a totally different matter picks up two days later on Monday.
And tonight, in Georgia, the Fulton County sheriff`s office has made an announcement to Atlanta commuters, telling Atlantans that they are going to be closing down all the roads around the courthouse and the whole Fulton County Justice Center Complex, because of that grand jury proceeding getting underway.
The headline in "The Atlanta Journal Constitution" that you can see here tonight: Trump election meddling probe to cause downtown Atlanta road closures.
Quote: The Fulton County sheriff`s office announced today that the department will close some roads in downtown Atlanta next week ahead of major court proceedings. The agency plans to close for road starting Monday, which is when Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis and her office will begin to select members of a special grand jury, who will investigate whether former President Donald Trump tried to illegally overturn Georgia`s election in 2020. Expect blockades at the corners of the Fulton County Justice Center Complex. Transit buses will have access.
The sheriff`s department says, quote, the public is advised to avoid the area, unless they must conduct a business in the vicinity.
So, they are expecting this to be such a hullabaloo starting on Monday in Fulton County, Georgia, that they have actually, in addition to the road closures, have canceled most of the proceedings in the magistrate court, at that justice complex.
[21:15:03]
They have canceled almost all the proceedings that the magistrate court and are also advising anyone who needs access to the Fulton County court system to skip downtown Atlanta and go to any satellite facilities instead.
So, this is all kind of coming together. I mean, it`s all happening now. There is a grand jury hearing evidence for this potential criminal case involving the former President Trump in Georgia. That is the one that is shutting down roads around the courthouse starting on Monday.
And there is the criminal case in New York involving former President Trump. That is going to trial this summer. That grand jury is coming to an end. And that way we will not know if they are reconvening another jury for charges. But there does seem to be new information at least in the civil case deposition, new information that we the public are seeing for the first time about Trump potentially implicating himself personally in some of the related matters to what has already been charged as fellow tax -- felony alleged tax fraud against his company.
Beyond that criminal case involving Trump`s company in New York, there is also the civil case in New York brought by the New York attorney general. She is investigating the former president`s business and its financial practices. That one is hitting deadline soon as well.
We heard from court testimony from a lawyer in New York Attorney General Tish James`s office this week, that there is going to be action taken concerning Trump and his business, that if there is going to be action taken by the New York stony general, that we believe that that will be soon. Quite soon.
Today, the judge in that case ruled that the appraisers Trump to use for many of his business dealings, according to the judge, had odd inconsistencies and many of their business pronouncements related to Trump. In ruling that way, and ruling that there were odd inconsistencies that did not appear to be explicable at least on paper, the judge today effectively clear the attorney general and her office to start looking into those apparent discrepancies involving the financial appraisals of the value of Trump`s properties. That cannot be good.
There is also the other civil case in New York involving the former president, and when it resulted in the pineapple banana, tomato salad today. As well as him potentially implicating himself in a new way in the criminal case that already involves his businesses. All at once!
I mean, with all this going on, it is amazing that he is having so much time to work on his presidential library. Oh, wait, there is no Trump presidential library. But the real tension, I think, at the heart of all of this, for all of us, is -- well, a little introspection is probably an order. Why do we make the decision decisions that we make about whom you are going to give maximum power to? Why do we make those decisions?
But also, perhaps in more practical and forward-looking terms, how do we simultaneously manage the knowledge of how ridiculous his presidency and now he`s post-presidency are and have been? How do we manage the simultaneous knowledge of the ridiculous factor here being turned up to 11? How do we simultaneously understand that cuckoo for cocoa puffs factor? That bananas factor? That bizarre factor? And the buffoonish this that has surrounded him from the very beginning and continues to?
How do we reconcile that buffoonishness with the actual danger that both his presidency and his post presidency posed and continue to pose? I raise that tonight in particular reference to a stunning op-ed that has just been published by a conservative -- very conservative -- former U.S. appeals court judge named Michael Luttig.
Michael Luttig today has this scary opinion piece published at CNN. And you might remember Michael Luttig`s name as the very conservative celebrated appeals court judge who was reportedly considered by previous Republican presidents for a seat on a Supreme Court judge. He is a very conservative judge for whom Ted Cruz clerked, for whom Trump lawyer John Eastman clerked.
And it was Judge Luttig who Vice President Mike Pence cited overtly on January 6 last year, when Mike Pence wrote that letter saying he wasn`t going to go along with his cockamamie plan for him throughout the election results and declare Trump the winner, even though Biden had won.
Well, Judge Luttig today warns that, as a country, we are not fully appreciating the danger of what is happening here, what is still happening here.
I`m just going to give you the lead to what he argue today. He said, quote: Nearly a year and a half later surprisingly few understand what January 6th was all about.
[21:20:07]
If you are still understand why former President Donald Trump and Republicans persist in their long disproven claim that the 2020 presidential election was stolen. Much less -- excuse me, much less, why they are obsessed about making the 2024 race a referendum on the stolen election of 2020, which even they know was not stolen. January 6th was never about the stolen election or even about actual voting fraud. It was always and only about an election that Trump lost fair and square.
The Republicans mystifying claim to this day that Trump did or would have received more votes than Joe Biden in 2020, we`re now for actual voting fraud, is but the shiny object that Republicans have tauntingly and disingenuously dangled before the American public for almost a year and a half now, to distract attention from the far more ambitious objective. That objective is not, somehow, to rescind the 2020 election, as they would have us believe. That is constitutionally impossible.
Trumps and the Republicans` far more ambitious objective is to execute successfully in 2020 for the very same plan that they failed in executing in 2020. They seek to overturn the 2024 election of Trump and his anointed successor loses again in the next presidential election. In other words, the last presidential election was a dry run for the next.
Judge Luttig then goes on to warn that the Supreme Court, now with Amy Coney Barrett seated and voting on the court, he warns that the court, as it is currently constituted with three Trump appointees on it, it is actually poised, in his view, to give Republicans most of what they would need to pull off a reversal of any untoward election results in 2024. He argues that the court will likely go along with them, giving them the power that they need to through our election results and instead just have Republican control state legislatures declare Trump`s the winner.
He says the Supreme Court is going that direction and will likely move that way. He also says that Congress needs to change some laws right now to clarify that at least inside Congress, that they cannot pull off whatever they were trying to get Mike Pence to do on January 6th, which they will undoubtedly try to get somebody else to do one 2024.
And whether they could constrain Vice President Harris or whether they can do anything else with the electoral count to flip the results in their favor, Judge Luttig is basically sounding the alarm that this is not just some sort of right hearing, some rage wedge issue that Republicans are pursuing, because they like it as a culture war thing that upsets the liberals. He`s saying that this is the plan they`ve got for 2024, and there are not going to be too many more hurdles in the way toward that mission.
Now, to that end, "The Washington Post" tonight is reporting that among the things that January 6th investigation in Congress is looking at is a number of different ways that Trump and his administration people around him try to get him to use the emergency powers of the president, which technically, at least, are very limited thing. But how he tried to use them or considered easing him to overthrow the election.
"The Post" reporting tonight that, quote, three days before Biden`s inauguration, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene texted White House chief of staff and told him that some Republican members of Congress believe that the only path for President Trump to change the election and stay in power was for him to declare martial law. The text from Greene, which was revealed this week, brought to the for the course of the Republicans who are publicly and privately advocating for Trump to try to use the military and defense apparatus of the U.S. government to strong-arm his way past and electoral defeat.
Now discussions involving the Trump White House involving the use of emergency powers have become an important part little known part of the January 6th investigation of the attack on the Capitol. It says, quote, in subpoenas, document requests in court filings, the panel has demanded information about any Trump administration plans to use presidential emergency powers to invoke martial law or take other steps to overturn the election.
Interviews with committee members and a review of the panel information requests reveal a focus on emergency powers that were being considered by Trump and his allies in several categories. Invoking the Insurrection Act, declaring martial law, using presidential powers to justify seizing voting machines, and using the military to require a re-run of the election.
Again, "The Post" reporting that those efforts to use the presidential emergency powers to overthrow the election is a new and largely sort of overlooked, publicly overlooked part of what the January 6th investigation is looking at. What is this new reporting mean? And is this a whole new level of seriousness that we have not considered before?
Joining us now is Elizabeth Goitein. She is co-director of the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice. She is, in fact, one of the experts on presidential emergency powers.
[21:25:04]
She`s quoted in "The Post" reporting today. In "The Post" reporting, she argues that the emergency powers, quote, contain fundamental flaws that could lead to abuse and she has said that the emergency powers should be a focus of the January 6th investigation.
Ms. Goitein, it`s a real pleasure to have you with us tonight. Thank you.
ELIZABETH GOITEIN, BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE: Thanks so much for having me.
MADDOW: So, I have always sort of led to believe that emergency powers for the president or indeed the administration, and particularly around the elections, are quite limited. But it sounds like the January 6th investigators have got their teeth into a number of different ways that those powers were, at least, attempted to be tapped by Trump and his allies in 2020.
GOITEIN: I think the truth lies somewhere between what you thought about emergency powers and what, you know, Michael Flynn, and Sidney Powell and Marjorie Taylor Greene were urging President Trump to do.
Emergency powers do not give the president limitless ability to do whatever he wants, such as seizing the voting the machines and in overturning the results of the election. In fact, there are no emergency powers that would allow the president to overturn the results of an election after those results are in. However, there are emergency powers available to the president that are disturbingly broad, and that lack checks and balances that are necessary to ensure that they can`t be used in ways that could undermine our democracy in other ways.
So, I think it is absolutely a legitimate cause for concern, something the January 6 committee should be looking at very closely.
MADDOW: One of the key points of any congressional investigation, and this is a point that is one of the key aims, one of the key reasons to justify creating congressional investigations, is to recommend legislative changes, since that, after all, is the main purview of Congress. If the January 6th investigators are looking at that, obviously it is going to potentially real more to us about what the components were of the plot and who is trying to get away with what.
But is it conceivable to you as an expert in this field that they could also recommend practical changes that the Congress itself could fix ahead of the 2024 election to alleviate some of the concerns that we were just describing?
GOITEIN: Absolutely. Let`s take the National Emergencies Act, which allows the president to declare a national emergency pretty much within his discretion, just by signing an executive order. And then that declaration unlocks enhanced powers that are contained in more than 120 laws.
Some of those powers are what keep me awake at night, including laws that would allow the president to take over or shut down communications facilities, laws that would allow the president to freeze Americans assets and prevent anyone from doing any kind of financial transaction with them. Laws that would even allow the president to suspend the prohibition on government testing of chemical and biological agents. They are emergency powers that allow these things.
MADDOW: Wow.
GOITEIN: So, absolutely, I think Congress can be thinking about ways to bring in some of these emergency powers but also the very basic check that Congress should be able to shut down and abuse of emergency powers by the president. Right now, the only way Congress can do that is to pass a law by a veto-proof super majority. And there are better ways to do that, such as allowing an emergency declaration to stand in fact for 30 days, but to terminate at that point if Congress hasn`t approved the declaration. And that`s part of some legislation that`s being considered by Congress now.
One other law that I think is important to look at is the Insurrection Act. And this is a law that allows the president, again with the tremendous amount of discretion, to deploy federal troops to act as a domestic police force. That is something that, in general, our laws, our constitution really frowned on, because the founders knew that an army turned inward could become an instrument of tyranny.
But this law is really in exception that gives the president tremendous exceptional powers to address not only insurrections, as the name would suggest, but also to address domestic violence, which isn`t defined, to address unlawful combinations or conspiracies, again, not defined, to this very vague and frankly archaic language that the statute hasn`t been updated in 150 years, gives the president a dangerous amount of authority.
Again what it needs is more specific definitions and checks and balances. Some provision for Congress in the courts to step in if the president overreaches.
MADDOW: Elizabeth Goitein, co-director of the liberty and national security program at the Brennan Center for Justice, that was both terrifying and incredibly clear. Thank you very much for joining us. It`s a pleasure to have you here.
GOITEIN: Thank you. My pleasure.
MADDOW: All right. We`ve got much more to get to tonight. Stay with us.
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[21:34:35]
MADDOW: June last year, Republicans in the Wisconsin state legislators decided they needed to launch an investigation into the results of the presidential election in that state. Wisconsin is a state that President Biden won by a pretty good margin so obviously that needed to be investigated.
So, Wisconsin Republicans hired a pro-Trump stop the steal conspiracy theorists to conduct that investigation and they gave him $676,000 Wisconsin taxpayer dollars to do it.
[21:35:02]
The guy blew through multiple deadlines to finish his investigation before eventually released a 136-page report that did not prove any allegations of election fraud but it did darkly mention Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg more than 150 times. On average, more than once per page.
So without any proof of any fraud but, you know, saying Zuckerberg a lot, Wisconsin Republicans decided that would be enough for them to try to decertify the election results and say president Biden didn`t win there at all. That`s what they`ve tried it hasn`t worked out for them so far.
After about ten months of this, it will start to look like Wisconsin Republicans might be ready to start winding down that exercise, particularly given how much taxpayer money it was costing.
But then, the pro Trump guy who did put in part of the CNN against decided that he would take matters into his own hands. Because he wants to keep the job, he wants to keep the thing going. He started making regular appearances on the podcast, radio show thing of former president advisor Steve Bannon, urging Trump supporters that they needed to call Wisconsin Republican legislators to tell them that this important investigation must be kept going.
Then earlier this week, Trump himself weighed in with a statement saying that Wisconsin Republicans needed to keep that investigation going or he`d make sure they`d all face primary challenges. Well, that appears to have worked.
Yesterday, the Republican speaker of the state house in Wisconsin announced that the investigation into the 2020 election will continue even longer. Because Donald Trump willed it to be so and Steve Bannon insisted it must be so.
And we are seeing this thing play out in state after state. Over the weekend, Republicans in Michigan`s shows there are candidates for statewide office in November. These will be the Republican candidates in Michigan for secretary of state and attorney general.
One of those two candidates one on the left spoke at a QAnon conspiracy theorist conference late last year. She`s now the official Republican Party nominee to be secretary of state in Michigan, which means you`ll be in charge of overseeing elections for the whole state if she wins in November.
That prospect especially frightening a state like Michigan, you might remember that during the last presidential election, Michigan`s Republican Party came within centimeters of not certifying Biden`s election victory even though he clearly won in Michigan and by a lot. In the end, it came down to just one Republican member of a Michigan state canvassing board who resisted tons of pressure from his own party that he should agree to overturn the election results. He voted to certify Joe Biden`s victory. Michigan Republicans in the decided to retaliate against him, they refused to let him keep that job on that state canvassing board.
They replace him with a new Republican, a conservative activist named Tony Daunt. Well, today, Mr. Daunt that conservative activists who Michigan Republicans specifically chose for that key election posed today, he resigned from his position in the Michigan Republican Party. He wrote a letter to party leaders that was obtained by "The Detroit News".
In it, he wrote that, quote, cowardly party leaders have made the election here in Michigan a test of who is the most cravenly loyal to Donald Trump and to relitigating the results of the 2020 cycle. Incredibly, rather than distancing themselves from this undisciplined loser, far too many Republican leaders have decided that encouraging his delusional lies and even worse, cynically appeasing him despite knowing they are lies. Whether it`s misguided true belief, cynical cowardice or just plain old grift and avarice, it is a losing strategy and I cannot serve on the governing board of a party that`s too stupid to see that.
Trouble in turmoil in lots of Republican parties in lots of swing states -- got more on that ahead. Stay with us.
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[21:43:32]
MADDOW: Quote, rather than assembling the courage to do the right thing, at the right time, and guide the activists based towards the truth, they`ve really backed down and dissembled, hoping that just one more act of cowardice is what`s does the trick. All my best to you in the many other Republicans for doing their best to the right thing despite a leadership class that refuses to help you.
A high profile resignation in a Republican Party in Michigan today, following hot on the heels of the decision by Michigan Republicans this weekend to put two fire-breathing conspiracy theorists, election deniers forward as Republican Party`s official nominees this year for Michigan attorney general and Michigan secretary of state.
Joining us now is Craig Mauger. He`s reporter of "The Detroit News".
Mr. Mauger, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Appreciate it.
CRAIG MAUGER, REPORTER, THE DETROIT NEWS: Hey. Thank you so much for having me.
MADDOW: So you broke the story about this resignation in the Michigan Republican Party and published this sort of scorching resignation letter from the official who stepped down.
Let me just ask you for a little context, whether this was a surprise, whether this is the sort of person kind of expected this from, and how it`s landing in Michigan?
MAUGER: Yeah, I mean I sort of expected it having known Tony Daunts for quite awhile. But this is a guy that has spent his life trying to elect Republican to office in Michigan and he has become increasingly frustrated with what`s happening with the Republican Party in the state.
[21:45:01]
What`s happening with Donald Trump and relitigating the 2020 election and I think it essentially came to ahead with him over the weekend from what I can tell. And he finally said that he`s done with this position on state committee and he`s moving on.
MADDOW: This weekend was, of course, the Michigan Republican nominating convention, Michigan doesn`t choose its candidates for down-ballot state races through primaries. Instead, they did for the kind of convention that we saw this weekend. And it was remarkable choices by Michigan Republicans for those attorney general and secretary of state races, both because they`re both the most fire-breathing election deniers of anybody running for those positions.
But also in the case of the secretary of state candidate -- I mean, she is just, she has been a full blown QAnon promoter, which sort of sounds light and sounds funny but actually gets very dark very quickly.
Do you think that if Michigan had run a primary, and Michigan Republicans as a whole had cast votes to pick nominees for those positions, that they would`ve pick those same folks or is this something about the sort of poor activists in the party that`s different from how most people feel in the state?
MAUGER: It`s very difficult to tell. Of course, the people that participate in this convention are the most ardent Donald Trump supporters that you can find in Michigan. But I don`t think it`s necessarily a given that Kristina Karamo and Matt DePerno would not have won a primary election. These are two individuals who don`t Trump has done a lot to help. He`s come to Michigan for rally, he`s done telephone town halls, he sent on numerous statements to back them.
And really, the people who are challenging Kristina Karamo specifically within the party, did not really have a base of support, they didn`t have the financial ability to compete with her. Matt DePerno might have been a different story. But I think what is clear in Michigan after Saturday, is the base of the party, the people that go door to door. The people who volunteer at the time and election takes place, these people want to relitigate the 2020 election. They are not ready to move on. They want answers and they really want accountability from officeholders.
And you know, they are not going to give that up as much as many of the elected Republican leaders in the state want to move on. The base of the party is not going to move on.
MADDOW: It seems like it`s as we head towards general election, it`s going to be bumpy as they go through this or transition they are describing. We`ll stay on with the help of your reporting, Mr. Mauger, thank you for being here.
Craig Mauger, reporter for "The Detroit News" -- thanks for your time tonight, sir.
MAUGER: Thank you so much for having me.
MADDOW: All right. We`ll be right back. Stay with us.
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[21:52:24]
So Russia has huge supplies of oil and natural gas. I wrote a book about a called "Blowout" in case you everyone do some homework. But oil and gas constitute a huge, huge, huge proportion of Russia`s economic lifeblood. They don`t do much else besides oil and gas.
And today, the state-controlled Russian natural gas company, a company called Gazprom, today, they announced they are cutting off natural gas supplies to Bulgaria and Poland, in what`s seems pretty clearly like retaliation for European and support for Ukraine, as Russia continues to wage their war there. Now, Bulgaria gets about 90 percent of their natural gas from Russia. Russia just cut them off.
Despite that, the Bulgarians were pretty unflinching today, the prime minister responded today by saying, quote: We will not succumb to such a racket.
Poland the other country that got cut off today, they`ve been preparing for something like this from Russia for a long time. Among other things in recent years, Poland built itself a new liquefied natural gas terminal, shipping terminal, which means they can get shiploads of liquefied natural gas brought in from any other country in the world, instead of having to rely just on the pipeline from Russia.
So, yeah, Russia just couple and off but Poland was preparing for that anyway. Already trying to wean themselves off being dependent on Russia.
What Russia did today, it`s just defeated of a timeline that was already in place for many European countries to start getting themselves off Russian gas. Because how can you depend on Russia for anything?
Russia does have leverage in terms of cutting off petroleum products to countries that are dependent on them. So there`s also a problem here on Russia side, Russia itself can`t go very long without selling its oil and gas, in large part because it has nothing else to sell. A lot has been rain today about the fact that China or India maybe some other markets will step up and take Russian energy supplies if Russia stop selling it westward.
But that`s not practical from a purely logistics standpoint. As the "Associated Press" points out today, quote: The Russian pipeline network from the huge deposits in the northwestern Siberia to Europe don`t connect with the pipelines running to China. And Russia has only limited facilities to export super chilled liquefied gas by ship.
So they don`t have the pipelines to send anywhere but Europe. And they don`t have ships really to send it anywhere except into the pipelines. Russia`s ill-equipped to send gas to these other countries, right? There`s also just the most obvious point you`re dealing with a much lower volume when you`re moving a product by ship as opposed to putting into a pipeline.
In any case, by picking this fight with Bulgaria and Poland, Russia is more or less cutting off its nose to spite its face.
[21:55:03]
Now, regardless of whether or not Russia had made such a move, a European embargo on Russian oil and gas was already in the works that ban could be part of an upcoming sanctions package from the EU. To underscore that point today, the president of the EU said, quote, the era of Russian fossil fuel in Europe is coming to an end.
Europe is known for a long time that they need to get off of Russian oil. Europe knows they should have realized that becoming dependent on Russia for energy supplies was a bad idea. Russia during the Cold War, keeping up its supplies, despite all the vagary`s of the Cold War, that sort of gave Europe a good reason to play see no evil hear no evil pretend it would all be fine.
But those illusions are now over. What Russia did today, cutting off gas supplies to two countries, two NATO countries to try to force European countries to change your behavior, there`s just no way to hide from it anymore. He`s now proven the point indelibly. Russia is a mafia state don`t do business with them, don`t be dependent on them in any way, they will take any relationship they have with you and they will use it as power over you.
I mean, cutting through the chase here part of Putin turning Russia into a full blown authoritarian fascist state is that there are now a corporate estate, which means that business interests and political interest in Russia are merged. All economic power in Russia is harnessed to serve the state. So, you know, Putin will use what normal countries might think of as a business relationship to go to war with you instead. And nobody can avoid seeing it now.
So, yeah, Poland`s been prepping to get out from under Russian energy dependence. That will rush to completion now. The same thing will happen in Bulgaria. Same thing is even going to have it in places like Germany. The same thing is going to happen and all of Europe.
What Putin did today will force Europe to cut the spigot from Russia faster than they ever would before. In the long run, this means for Putin, honestly I believe it, the game is up.
Stay with us.
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MADDOW: All right. That`s going to do it for us for tonight. I will see you again tomorrow night.
Now it`s time for `THE LAST WORD" with the great Lawrence O`Donnell.
Good evening, Lawrence.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END