Summary
Republicans in Kentucky passed a bill to make it harder for women to get abortions in that state. Russian battleship sinks in Black Sea. Senator Feinstein told the "San Francisco Chronicle" that she will serve her term.
Transcript
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: That is "ALL IN" on this Thursday night.
THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW starts right now.
Good, evening Rachel.
Good evening, Chris. Thank you, my friend. Much appreciate it.
And thanks to you at home for joining us at this hour.
It is a landmark decision today by the National Republican Party. This is something Chris was just covering.
I think it`s a landmark decision that the Republican Party has said that they will no longer participate in presidential debates. It will go down as a landmark decision I think in political history, but I think it was probably inevitable.
I mean, the modern presidential debate structure that the Republicans are now opting out of that they`re deciding to kill off with this decision today, is a process that puts journalists formally into the electoral process. Journalist served as moderators of the presidential debates. And that`s what the Republicans have decided that they can no longer abide.
It really is just an amazing thing for the Republican Party to have decided this today with this unanimous vote at the Republican National Committee, but honestly, you really could see it coming if you are looking in the right direction. I mean, once the president of that party, the leader of that party declared that the free press of the United States was at his words the enemy of the people, once the Republican Party decided that American free press is bad, that journalism something they can do only without, that they`re against as a party.
Well, this is where that ends, right? They`re not going to allow some formal role for the protests in the electoral process. They`re not going to do debates with journalist asking questions, not when they`ve decided that as a party, they`re against journalism. They`re against the press, the press is the enemy.
I mean, we`ve seen all of these other sort of norms around this, traditions around this fall by the wayside without must commentary. The leader of their last president wouldn`t even do the White House correspondents dinner which is a comedy show.
Under the previous president, they had the White House spokesperson stopped doing briefings for the process. They invited rally-goers to scream and curse at reporters and camera crews who were on site covering the president`s rallies. This is -- it`s been clear where they have where they`ve been going with this.
But, yeah, Republican set formal day there will be no more presidential debates. Not with their candidates. This is a landmark thing, but it was I think it was a quick and direct trip to that landmark, once Republicans under Trump declared that journalism is the enemy and as far as they`re concerned it must be stopped.
So, I don`t know that there`s much more to said about that. What`s done is now done. But let the record show that`s exactly why it happened.
There`s a lot of interesting things, I think some other landmark things in the news today. Today, former President Trump`s domestic advisor Stephen Miller, he had fought a subpoena from the January 6th investigation for months. He had even sued them to try to avoid testifying, but today, he testified to the January 6 commission. We`ll have more on that later, January 6 investigation, forgive me.
"The San Francisco Chronicle" today published a brutal, very long piece today quoting lots, and lots of across -- Democratic sources in California and the United States Senate. All claiming to various degrees that Senator Dianne Feinstein of California is mentally no longer up to the job of being senator. The claims are basically that presumably because of age, she is too out of it too frequently to continue to hold the job.
Now, again, these are unnamed sources and Senator Feinstein`s office is vociferously denying these claims. She`s also being defended very aggressively by fellow senators and by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Fellow Californian, fellow San Franciscan.
But this is the second article along these lines about Senator Feinstein. The first was a little over a year ago from Jane Mayer in "The New Yorker Magazine". After this "Chronicle" piece today, there has not been widespread reaction to these allegations yet in Washington. Presumably that`s because the Senate isn`t in session right now, I`m assuming that there is no senator who wants to stick their head over the parapet on this one.
But this is a really sensitive subject, not just for Senator Feinstein, but for a bunch of other senators. I mean, yeah, she`s 88 but there are six other U.S. senators who are in their 80s right now. So, like I said not much reaction yet on Capitol Hill to this very difficult reporting on Senator Feinstein in "The San Francisco Chronicle" about her mental state, particularly about our short term memory.
But this is a pretty real depth charge by an institution that does not really like contending with this issue at all, and for which this issue looms large if we are honest about it.
[21:05:02]
So, we shall see how that emerges. It`s worth keeping an eye on. It`s worth reading that piece if you haven`t yet.
And one other note, it was -- it was just about this time last night here on the show when we started to get more credible but still unconfirmed reports about this ship, reports that the Russians most important naval vessel in the war against Ukraine had been hit or damage somehow, or might be out of commission.
Well, today, that ship, the Moskva, which is the Russian for Moscow, that ship sank. Over the course of the last few days while this has been covered, you`ve probably heard the Moskva described as the flagship as Russia`s fleet in the Black Sea. Being flagship means that it`s the most important, usually the most capable, highest profile ship in any fleet.
In this case, the Moskva was gigantic. I mean, if the Ukrainians claim that they sank it with a line to see missile are correct, the Moskva might be the largest ship ever sunk by a missile. It certainly the largest warship of any kind some since World War II.
This is a guided missile cruiser, it has a crew of 500, it`s more than 600 feet long, and it`s now gone. The Russian ministry of defense is now confirming that it has sunk.
We`re going to have some expert help here in a minute just to get to the practical significance of that development, as well as the new news today that new Europe might pull out, perhaps, the biggest weapon that they have against Russia. This is absolutely unthinkable, even just earlier in the course of the war, but Europe today started to consider an embargo, an outright ban on Russian oil.
This is the -- this is as big as it gets in terms of punishing Russia. Russia is a petrol state, they assume they can have their way in the world because nobody what they did, no matter what`s violence or nefarious ends they pursued anywhere in the world, other countries would have to let it slide because nobody can forgo Russian oil.
Well, after 50 days of Russia bombarding Ukraine, and Ukraine begging the world, begging Europe in particular to cut Russia off, to stop funding the Russian state by buying their oil, today, Europe finally started to draft an embargo that would cut off the Russian state, by stopping buying their oil. They said it couldn`t be done.
But, Europe has started that process today. There is no larger economic measure that could be taken against Russia, oil and gas is the existential lifeblood of their sclerotic, backward economy. If it is cut off, Russia as we know it will cease to exist. We will have expert help on that, and much more coming up tonight.
But I want to start us off tonight, here at home, with a headline that is maybe not a surprise but it has come sooner than any of us have expected. Here it is tonight from "The Associated Press". Quote: Abortions stop in Kentucky as groups seek to block new law. Just read that one more time, abortions stop in Kentucky.
At the end of last month, Republicans in Kentucky passed a bill to make it harder for women to get abortions in that state. Previously, Kentucky had a law in the books that you couldn`t get enough abortion there if your pregnancy was more than 20 weeks along. This new law passed last week ruled it back even farther, said that you can longer get an abortion in the state if you`re pregnancy is 15 weeks along or further. They will get back from 20 to 15 weeks.
Kentucky Republicans, of course, are not the first to pass that kind of legislation. They will not be the last. But unlike in most of the other states with Republican-controlled legislators, Kentucky has a governor who was a Democrat. And after the Kentucky Republicans passed that 15-week abortion ban to the legislature last month, the state`s Democratic governor, Andy Beshear, he vetoed it.
But last night, the Republican-led legislator in Kentucky voted to override the governor`s veto. And the practical consequence of that is very important for our country, because it means that that new abortion ban in Kentucky is now in effect. There is no grace period, there is no planned implementation date for the future for, it the law takes effect immediately. It`s operational today, right now.
And it turns out, it`s much more than just a 15-week ban. There is already only two clinics that provide abortions in the state of Kentucky, they`re both located in Louisville. Tonight, both of those clinics say that because of the way that the law is written, not just because of the 15-week ban, but because of the other restrictions and the bill that are designed to make it basically impossible for anyone to perform any legal abortion in the state, those two last clinics in the state tell us tonight that there is no way for them to comply with this new law, which again, went into effect today with the veto override.
So the last two clinics in Kentucky are announcing that, as of now, they had to close their doors. They are no longer able to provide abortions because of this new law as of today. Which means, if we are talking about landmarks, today is the landmark because today, for the first time since Roe v. Wade, Supreme Court decision in 1973, today, the first American state has gone dark. To outright block all legal access to abortions in the state, full stop.
Kentucky is the first one. It`s the first state with no legal access to abortion since Roe versus Wade in 1973.
Now, as you know, as we`ve been covering for months here, Kentucky is just one on a long list of Republican-controlled states that have passed radical new restrictions that make it close or outright impossible for women to get abortions. The one that got us the most attention is the bounty-style law in Texas, the Texas law sets up a bounty system, a vigilante system, that tells anybody in the general public, you don`t even have to be in Texas, literally, any random person, anywhere, can bring a lawsuit to anyone who is believed to have violated the new restrictions Texas set up around abortions.
That includes not just bringing a lawsuit against a doctor who provides an abortion, but anybody who helps a woman obtain an abortion even a person who just drives you to the clinic, or loans you money to get the procedure done. The Texas law, the vigilante law in Texas have been in the books since September, it remains in effect today.
Since the passage of the Texas law, we`ve seen several states try to pass copycat laws, mimicking the one in Texas. Idaho became the first day to get one signed into law in March. It`s set to get into effect later this month. Just this week, Oklahoma became the latest state to pass a ban on all abortions. It`s not a 20-week ban, it`s not a 15-week ban, it`s not even a six-week ban like in Texas.
This is no abortions, at all, with no exceptions even if the pregnancy came about as a result of incest, or as a result of rape. A woman who was raped and became pregnant as a result of the rape would be forced, by the state, of Oklahoma, to carry that pregnancy to term and give birth to the rapist`s child against her will.
That Oklahoma ban is scheduled to go into effect this summer. Other states have tried to pass these kinds of outright bans in the past, but of course, they have been blocked by the courts because the Supreme Court previously affirmed that the Constitution affords women the right to get an abortion. That was the Roe v. Wade decision.
I mean, theoretically, at least for now, Roe versus Wade protects the right to get an abortion in this country in all 50 states. But with this court, the spring court is currently considering a case in the law of Mississippi that bans on a Russian after 15 weeks. That violates the protection established by Roe versus Wade.
The Supreme Court is considering that now, if they allow that Mississippi law to stand, which is what they`re expected to do, that will effectively knock Roe out, and with it, any constitutional protections nationwide for abortion access. Just today, the Republican governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, signed a new 15-week ban on abortion just like the one that`s being challenged in the Supreme Court in Mississippi. The Florida ban is scheduled to go into effect in July, which is around the time are going to get a decision from the Supreme Court on potentially overturning Roe.
I mean, that`s this whole flurry of Republican anti-abortion laws has been around the country. Prepare for the day they are expecting soon, when Roe versus Wade will fall because of the Supreme Court, when they want to get the bans on the books now so that everything is ready to go once Roe is thrown out. And in the meantime, they`re making it as hard as humanly possible to get women abortions under any circumstances. Threaten their Uber drivers if you have to, threaten anyone who loans the money, certainly threaten the doctors, threaten the women.
But now, put that Kentucky headline back up there. As of today, abortions have stopped in Kentucky. There are two clinics that provided a abortions in Kentucky before today. Neither of those clinics can provide abortions anymore under the new law just passed in that state. Which means not in a few months, not if and when the Supreme Court knocks down Roe, today, right now, abortion access is gone in Kentucky.
At first glance, the Kentucky law looks very similar to the one that`s currently being considered in the Supreme Court, the Mississippi law, it`s a 15-week ban on all abortions, no exceptions for rape, no exception for incest. When you open it -- sort of open the hood on this, that`s where you see all the other restrictions that have actually resulted in ending abortion access in the state.
[21:15:08]
It`s just this Olympic level obstacle course, medically unnecessary hoops that abortion providers are theoretically required to jump through if they are to provide any abortions at. This new law that went into effect today in Kentucky requires that all abortion providers file paperwork about the steps they take after they perform an abortion. This is a new requirement on its face, doesn`t seem so bad, right? No one likes paperwork, but that`s an easy box to check, right?
It turns out, no, it`s not, because in this case, this paperwork they have to fill out doesn`t exist yet. They rushed this thing under the books, this law literally went into effect was zero notice. Republicans and give anyone time to create these new forms, they`ve suddenly said are required by law to be filled out if you want a provide an abortion legally in the state.
So, as of today, to perform illegal abortion in the state of Kentucky, you`re required by law to fill out a form that literally doesn`t exist. So, no, the existing abortion providers in the state of Kentucky cannot do that in the corners of the law.
Here`s another, one for a doctor to legally perform an abortion in Kentucky, as of today, you have to report to the state of Kentucky the full name, age, race, ethnicity, health information, and hometown of the woman`s sexual partner, right, so, the father to the child in consideration, right? They consider this -- that`s how -- that`s how they are approaching this.
They are saying that we need all this information about the sexual partner of this woman who wants this abortion. Again, this bill provides no exception for rape. So if you are wrapped in Kentucky and need to know the home, town, race, ethnicity, health status of your rapist, you have to check that with him in order to be able to get an abortion legally in the state. And if you don`t provide that information, can`t get the abortion.
Here`s another one, because of this new law, in order to provide a patient with medication abortion, not even a surgical abortion, but a medication abortion, all Kentucky doctors have to register with the state before they are allowed to legally do so. The hitch here is that the state has not set up a system by which doctors are supposed to register. That system doesn`t exist. The state has not come up with a plan to build that system.
Planned Parenthood operates one of the two remaining operation clinics in Kentucky. A spokesperson for the organization in Kentucky today said, quote, there`s nothing appears for providers to be able to comply with this law`s new regulations. That`s why we are stopping providing care. We literally cannot meet the demands this bill would require.
So, yes, just a 15-week ban is extreme. They are using a 15-week ban to break Roe versus Wade. A 15-week ban violates the protections established by Roe versus Wade. That`s what they`re going to use at the Supreme Court to get rid of Roe.
But in the state of Kentucky, is not just a 15-week ban which is why all abortion stopped in the state today, it`s because of all of these other restrictions. These literally impossible to comply with medically unnecessary obstacles that Kentucky Republicans have put these doctors in the place of having to comply with.
That`s made it impossible for them to continue providing this care to Kentucky women. That`s why Kentucky, today, has been the first stage since Roe v. Wade to stop being able to provide abortions to women in that case under many circumstances.
The Kentucky law has already been challenged in court, both Planned Parenthood and the other clinic which is being represented by the ACLU have filed court challenges to the law. Both clinics are asking the court to issue a restraining order to put the law on ice until it`s mitigated in court, but that`s of little use in Kentucky right up where there is a zero access to legal abortion as of right now. It is the first state to go dark in 49 years.
Joining us now is Brigitte Amiri. She is the deputy director of the ACLU Reproductive Freedom Project. She is one of the attorneys on the ACLU`s lawsuit challenging this law that has turned Kentucky into first state to stop providing abortions.
Ms. Amiri, thanks very much for being here, I know this is -- this is a pretty intense, important day.
BRIGITTE AMIRI, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, ACLU REPRODUCTIVE FREEDOM PROJECT: Thanks for having me.
MADDOW: Let me just ask if I explained any of that wrong, or that`s basically what we should understand about what is happened in Kentucky and how far -- how much further down the road Kentucky is toward an effective abortion ban than other states.
AMIRI: No, you got a right. I also want to assure patients that we are doing everything we can to block the law as quickly as possible. So I really hope that we have the court order, maybe tomorrow event that restores access to abortion in Kentucky, and if you need an abortion in Kentucky, I urge you to call it a clinic, the situation is changing rapidly.
But you`re right that this is part of a larger context. There is an abortion access crisis in the United States right now, and it`s going to get exponentially worse.
[21:20:02]
In six weeks, when the Supreme Court decides the Mississippi case you mentioned before. Roe versus Wade may be overturned in a hole, or it might be dismantled and it will be wrecking havoc across the country.
MADDOW: In terms of the mechanism here in Kentucky, obviously, we`ve have this new 15-week ban which is why that -- same type of ban that`s before the court right now, that Mississippi case you just described. We`ve got another one of those bans just passed in Florida. We have lots of states pursuing those.
But it`s those other restrictions that make it, literally, impossible for health care providers to comply with arcane new laws that require specific things from them that can`t be done because for example the forms don`t exist or the system doesn`t exist for them to register with and all these other things.
It`s these obstacles, these unbeatable obstacles that have shut down care in Kentucky right now. Presumably, that`s something that the other states have not only been pursuing in the past but might ramp up as we head towards the Supreme Court decision as well.
AMIRI: Sure, we`ve long seen attempts by states to push abortion out of reach by an unnecessary restrictions. One makes Kentucky unique is that last night around 7:30, as you mentioned, when the legislature overrode the governor`s veto, the law took effect immediately.
It`s a 72-page labyrinth of a ton of restrictions, none of which can be complied with because it`s, as you said, the state has and created the infrastructure to comply with the law. It`s a classic catch-22, it`s a gotcha moment, there is no time to comply, and that`s why we had to stop today.
But we filed a lawsuit as of this morning, as did Planned Parenthood, and we`re hoping that we get the abortion access restored.
MADDOW: What sort of timing are you hoping to move this lawsuit on? Obviously, you`re asking for essentially the law to be enjoined, the log from stop from being gone into effect. What`s the best case scenario if things go your way?
AMIRI: We could get a decision anyone from the judge. We asked for a restraining order from the court so we can get it tonight, we could get it first thing tomorrow, that`s why I`m urging people in Kentucky, if you need an abortion, contact the abortion clinic, contact the abortion fund, and we don`t want people to be confused because chaos and confusion is part of the design.
These antiabortion legislatures that want to push abortion out of reach, want to ban abortion, they also want to confuse people, scare people, stigmatize abortion, so we want to be very clear that we want people who need abortion and need to get it are fighting for it, always be in touch with folks on the ground who can tell you theirr status.
MADDOW: Brigitte Amiri, deputy director of the ACLU Reproductive Freedom Project, thank you for your time tonight. As I said, I know this is a landmark day for all the wrong reasons. It`s an intense time. Thank you, good luck.
AMIRI: Thank you for having me.
MADDOW: All right. We`ve got much more ahead tonight. Stay with us.
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[21:27:47]
MADDOW: This is one of those segments that has a lot of visuals. So, if you`re washing the dishes are doing some other things this is one that`s worth seeing. Because they have access to his house now, and the house you can tell from the outside is designed to look like a palace. Kind of looks like a cross between a palace and a bank may be, I don`t know.
The building is clearly being remodeled, it`s being renovated, but all this stuff is there, including all of his art stuff. There`s a huge rack of gigantic paintings, look at the size of them, we are all size paintings and gold frames. There`s also a whole other rack of paintings that appear to all be just portraits of the same woman? You think that`s all portraits of the wife?
There`s also a closet full of designer clothes for her. There`s also a weird room full of boxed jewelry, and boxed trinkets and things are not totally sure what those things are. There`s a roomful of antiques including certificates of authenticity for various antiques.
So, that`s what`s inside but then you go outside on the grounds and this is weird. It`s like this -- it`s kind of waggling around a little bit in the breeze. What`s that? It`s covered in military camouflage netting it really isn`t easy to see what that is. Presumably that makes it not easy to see from above, but honestly it`s even kind of hard to figure out what it is from the ground as you could see here.
Well, if you pop inside as that guy does, you can see what is in their. What`s in there? Oh my God, look, it`s a fake train station. Now to be clear this isn`t a real train station. There are no railroad tracks. That lead into or out of this thing that looks like a little station. It`s -- you see the benches and everything, and little lamps, it`s a replica. A train station replica.
But sitting on the fake tracks at the fake train station in this guy`s yard is a fake train car, a personal fake train car, and look these guys, they put on plastic to cover so they won`t mess up the carpet when they go in. But then they go in and look, this train car is like the oriental express, it`s all red velvet, hand carved, hardwood and gold -- everything that looks golden actually is gold.
[21:30:08]
And this isn`t some kind of restored antique this guy just loves the classical era of train travel, and, you know, some rich guy rescued and restored this whole train cart, this is apparently a newly built thing. It`s a fake train car inside a fake train station. Stuffed with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gold fittings, expensive silver, the coffee machine is gold plated, the crystal tumblers have the seal of the Russian Federation on them.
And you know this is coming, you know this is coming yes, there is a gold toilet. With a gold holder for the toilet brush and there`s a gold hose on the big day, which is like a little rinsey thing for your business end. Does the hose for that really have to be gold given its function? Really? Yes, yes, everything must be gold including the thing you squirt.
This is just astonishing. I mean this astonishment, this thing with a gold everything and the stained glass ceiling inside the fake rail card, the gold crests everywhere, that real gold, this belongs to this gentleman. His name is Viktor Medvedchuk.
He`s now under arrest in the Ukraine having been previously charged with treason. This train car parked in his yard in the fake train station and parked in his yard was reportedly a gift from his wife sometime last year, a birthday present, a little special thing for him to play with. Viktor Medvedchuk.
Do you by any chance remember that when candidate Donald Trump hired a campaign chairman in 2016, for whatever reason he chose this guy Paul Manafort, a guy with whom he had no prior relationship? Paul Manafort for years have been working overseas getting paid by Putin-connected corrupt oligarchs to install Putin connected corrupt politicians in positions of power in the nation of Ukraine.
That book I wrote called "Blowout" is about how Putin weaponize oil and gas and corruption to try and keep Ukraine and other neighboring countries we can depended on Russia and under Putin`s thumb. Well, when Donald Trump inexplicably hired Manafort to write his campaign in 2016, that is what Paul Manafort specialized in -- weakening other countries by installing popular lies corrupt Russian profits who would do Putin`s bidding in the political leadership of other countries.
That`s what he was doing for a living. And then Trump hired. Him weird, why would we want that in America. What a weird skill set to bring to an American campaign.
Anyway, in Ukraine, in his work in Ukraine, Manafort`s most famous client was Ukrainian prime minister he got elected there, a pro-Putin puppet name Yanukovych. Yanukovych you might remember fled to Moscow when Ukrainians rose up and threw him out of office.
And you might remember from segments here on this show that after Yanukovych fled, the Ukrainian people started going in his various houses and palaces that he had all over Ukraine. And that`s how they learn that him do had gold toilets. What is it with these guys, at least Yanukovych had a toilet with weird gold lizard-y feet, and a gold flusher and yes a gold big day for the squirting.
Yanukovych also had a private zoo, in his case he didn`t have a fake gold plated personal train car like Medvedchuk, Yanukovych instead had a fake gold plated personal Spanish galleon that he floated on his private lake and used as his own private restaurant. Classy these guys.
When Yanukovych is gone, fled back to Moscow and now it`s Viktor Medvedchuk, the man with the gold plated fake train car, who`s as of this week is under arrest in Ukraine for treason. He was also one of Paul Manafort`s guys in Ukraine.
Medvedchuk is one of the richest men in Ukraine. He`s linked obviously to the Russian government he`s worked for Putin`s interest in Ukraine. He was part of the whole operation that Manafort ran to install Putin-connected puppets in position of power in Ukraine, Putin`s godfather to one of Medvedchuk`s daughters.
It is a was therefore unsettling when we learned that Medvedchuk had been one of the Trump campaign`s contacts in 2016 when Russia was intervening in our election in Trump into the White House. But now, the Ukrainians have arrested Viktor Medvedchuk. They have taken his assets, including the train car. They`ve taken his assets of the oligarchs that were working for the Russian federation inside Ukraine.
[21:35:01]
Ukrainian announced today that just for Medvedchuk alone, they have to seize 30 plots of land, 23 houses, 32 apartments, 26 cars and a one yacht. And presumably that one fake train car with bedazzled golden hose for squirting water of the caboose.
Just as Russian oligarchs the world over are having the yachts seized and their assets frozen, Ukraine to its trying to free itself of what Russia has been doing to them, by weaponizing corruption to create these powerful, rich, pro-Putin power centers inside their country, to keep their country corrupt, weak, destabilized, dependent on Russia.
But today, a big new step. Today, Europe, the European Union, finally took the first step toward actually pulling the plug on Russia`s power, toward actually dismantling Russia as a state. At least, as the kind of state it is now.
Because the European Union today began drafting a measure that would ban the purchase of Russian oil and gas. If there is one thing that could end Putin`s Russia as we know it, it would be that. Will they really do it?
More ahead, stay with us.
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[21:40:57]
MADDOW: In 2008, Vladimir Putin invaded Georgia, the former Soviet Republic of Georgia. During that invasion, Russia sent its flagship missile cruiser, the Moskva, to the Black Sea, to support that invasion of Georgia.
Six years later, Putin invaded Ukraine, invaded and took Crimea, part of Ukraine, in 2014. Again, that same ship, the Moskva, was deployed, played a critical role in blocking Ukrainian ships from leaving an important naval base to try to confront the Russians.
Then, one year later, in 2015, the Moskva was once again deployed this time to support Russia`s brutal military campaign in Syria in support of a dictator Bashar al-Assad.
So the Moskva is really the go-to warship. It has an extensive recent history in playing a key military role every time Putin try keeps trying to redraw the maps of the former Soviet Union.
Well, now, this flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet has apparently been sunk. The Ukrainian government is claiming that the ships sunk after was hit by Ukrainian made Neptune anti-ship missile.
The Russian version of the story is that this is and why the ships sunk, it`s sunk due to a fire. Due to, quote, haul damage received during a fire from the detonation of ammunition.
The United States has reportedly not confirmed either version of events. But it`s already had a practical event on the state of playing in the Black Sea. One senior defense official told reporters that about half a dozen Russian ships in the Black Sea move themselves farther out to sea, farther off the Ukrainian coast after the Moscow was hit.
If you think about it, it`s not the sort of thing you would do if the Moskva went down because somebody was like smoking in the ammunition room, right? Why would that`s catastrophe on board your flagship vessel cause you to move all of the other ships further offshore? That would solve the problem if you guys just started a fire on board your own ship.
And the Russians are obviously trying to save face by saying it was justified by denying that the Ukrainians sunk it. But either way, the damage is done the ship is gone, and if you think about it for a second of how they`re trying to make it all sound, it`s not even really a good argument.
As U.S. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan put it today, quote, one story is that it was just incompetence, meaning, we set fire on our own ship. The other stories that they came under attack. Neither is a particularly good outcome for them.
My next guest agrees with us. Joining us now is Mason Clark. He`s the lead Russia analyst of the Institute for the Study of War.
Mr. Clark, I appreciate you taking time to be with us tonight. Thank you.
MASON CLARK, LEAD RUSSIA ANALYST, INSTITUTE FOR THE STUDY OF WAR: Thank you for having me. My pleasure.
MADDOW: We have had a lot of discussion already, even before we knew that the Moskva was lost when we just heard that it might have been hit, or that it was somehow damage for some reason. We heard a lot about how it would have a morale impact. That that would boost the morale of the Ukrainians, it would hurt the morale of the Russians.
I know morale is a practical thing in wartime, but beyond just the morale factor, how important is this loss in terms of practical for the Russians?
CLARK: Sure. So, it`s certainly important in terms for the morale swing. Of course, the Moskva was infamous, as that warship was involved in the Snake Island incident in the beginning of the war. But in terms of practical abilities, it has supported the Russia companion guided missile strikes, in particularly on Ukrainian areas. But those have been a very small proportion of air and missile strikes that Russians have carried out throughout the war.
So, while it`s certainly a blow, it`s not going to change the course of the campaign, I`d say by depriving the Russians of any capability.
Now, of course, with the Russian warships backing off from the Black Sea coast, as you noted, not something that you would do if you had a fire in your ammunition area, it`s likely going to deprive some of those Russian forces along the coast of air defenses against the Ukrainian air force that some of these warships have been providing.
[21:45:03]
So, that may be a more immediate technical impact.
But in terms of Russian offensive capabilities, frankly, these warships have not been that essential to begin with.
MADDOW: In terms of the Ukrainian offensive capabilities, if Ukraine is borne out, if they are correct that they will be able to sink this warship, effectively, with a missile strike, I`m no expert in naval warfare, but as far as I know, that`s a pretty rare way, if not a unique way, to sink a warship, particularly one of this size. And it wouldn`t indicate that Ukraine has more capacity of this type -- they have weapons that have been previously been used in wartime, that might be more effective than had been previously conceived, is that fair?
CLARK: Yeah, exactly, this is actually likely the first time that the Neptune has been used in combat. It was only introduced to Ukrainian arsenal in 2019, quite recently. And with its domestic Ukrainian missile, but even in addition to this, Ukraine is increasingly receiving similar systems from the UK and various other Western partners that will allow them to push back on Russian dominance in the Black Sea.
We`ve already assessed for sometime that there is very little chance that the Russians will be able to mount and amphibious invasion of the southern coast of Ukraine, which was a worry early in the war, but particularly Ukraine has certainly demonstrated that it can threaten such a landing, it has to be off the table. It`s definitely going to be a huge boon to the Ukrainian military and lessening that threaten enabling them probably to carry out their own operations on the Black Sea, whereas the Ukrainian navy has been bottled up in ports since the early base of the war, at least until now.
MADDOW: Mr. Clark, can also just ask you, there`s a lot of discussion now, including discussions led by the U.S. government, sort of advising the U.S. public want to think about what is going to come next, we are told to expect that Russia is regrouping, repositioning, and that they are planning for a major ground operation in Eastern Ukraine, and perhaps also in southern Ukraine.
Are we seeing the kind of movement of forces, are we seeing the kind of massing of forces, that would indicate that something like that is imminent? Is it possible that Russia isn`t about to mount an operation that large or that it might be further off in the future, that we`ve been let`s believe? It doesn`t seem like they have the manpower the material in place to do something on the scale that we have been led to expect.
CLARK: Well, you should`ve hit the nail on the head right there. They`re trying to, but we don`t think that it`s going to be very effective. We are seeing a lot of signs on the ground, both from reports from Ukraine intelligence as well as just videos, both from Russian and Ukrainian civilians, huge Russian columns moving down into Rostov and other key Russian cities supporting those operations in eastern Ukraine.
The issue, though, is that a lot of those units are badly chewed up infighting around Kyiv, in Chernihiv and, Sumy, those areas in northeastern Ukraine that Russian forces had to abandon the last couple of weeks. They have not really have the time to reform, replace lost equipment, restore morale, these troops are very demoralized. And they`re unlikely to contribute much to Russian combat power in their damaged state.
I don`t want to overstate that. Unfortunately, just a sheer weight of numbers and resources of the Russian military may be able to push through Ukrainian defense in some areas when they do launch a wider offensive likely in the next week or two. But I certainly don`t think that the Russian military has the capability to conduct the large breakthrough that they would like to at this point in the war due to how badly their initial operations went and how sparse the remaining reserves are.
MADDOW: Mason Clark, the lead Russia analyst at the institute for the study of war. Mister clerk, if that`s clarifying and interesting to talk to you about this. Thanks for making time with us to talk tonight.
CLARK: Of course, thanks for having me.
MADDOW: All right. We`ll be right back. Stay with us.
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MADDOW: Just yesterday we learned that two top lawyers for the Trump White House, Pat Cipollone, who was White House counsel, and Patrick Philbin, his deputy, had spoke with the investigators from the January 6th investigation. According to reporting from "The New York Times," Donald Trump apparently believes he authorized these White House lawyers speak to the panel. No one knows what that would mean. Apparently, that`s what "The Times" reported. He authorized.
Today, we learned that yet another Trump White House official has spoken with the January 6 investigation. His name is Stephen Miller, Trump`s former senior adviser. He met virtually with investigators today for about eight hours.
One source familiar with the testimony tells CNN that Mr. Miller was at times a difficult witness, saying that things got quote, a little chippy. It got a little chippy the source said. The source added that Stephen Miller tried to make claims of executive privilege from the witness chair, which is probably something that`s not going to fly in the long run.
Mr. Miller was subpoenaed by the committee back in November for his records of testimony. Last month, he actually sued the committee to block that subpoena in an effort to prevent the investigation from obtaining his phone records. He claims specifically that his parents would get caught up in a search of his phone records because he still on his family`s phone plan.
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Yes, the architect of the Trump administration`s policy to take young kids away from their moms and dads and not give them back, he`s a grown man and a White House adviser who still on his mom and dad`s phone plan. Just in case you made it through the day without having the bile race up the back of your throat, that`s been taking care of now.
We don`t yet know what was said and Mr. Miller`s testimony, but eight hours quite a bit of talking if he was a little chippy. Again, public hearings in the investigation are due to start as soon as late next month.
Watch this space.
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MADDOW: Before we go, one quick update on a story that we covered at the top of the show tonight. As I reported at the top of the show, "The San Francisco Chronicle" published a long piece including lots of anonymous interviews with Democratic sources both in California and the U.S. Senate, all claiming that longtime U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein is no longer mentally fit for the job.
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Mentally, particular in terms of her memory, she`s two out of it too often to hold the job any longer. Very tough piece for Senator Feinstein.
Her office has vociferously denied those claims today, some fellow senators and House Speaker Pelosi have come to her defense.
Originally, though, Senator Feinstein personally denied the chance to comment for the story, but now, since we`ve been on the air, she apparently has spoken with the paper. The senator has spoken to the editorial board, "The Chronicle", over the phone. She told them, quote: I meet regularly with leaders, I`m not isolated, I see people, my attendance is good, I put in the hours. We represent a huge state, so I`m rather puzzled by all of this.
She also told the editorial board that as far as the concerns raised in that piece, that she`s not up to the job anymore, she says no one has raised those concerns to her directly. She`s told the paper, no, that conversation has not happened. Senator taking on this criticism directly and personally is a big step. Watch the space.
That`s going to do it for us tonight. Mehdi will be here tomorrow night. I will see you on Monday.
Now, it`s time for "THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL."
Good evening, Lawrence.