Summary
MSNBC`s continuing live coverage of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Transcript
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: That is "ALL IN" on this Wednesday night. THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW starts right now with Ali Velshi, again, live from the Ukrainian border. Good evening, Ali.
ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST: Chris, thank you for that. Good evening. We`ll talk to you tomorrow.
And thanks to you at home for joining this hour.
I`m outside a train station in Zahony, Hungary, where Ukrainian refugees have been lining up in droves all day, in hopes of catching one of these trains to Budapest, or essentially anyway farther away from the violence that they escaped at home.
I should mention, it`s bitterly cold here. Refugees subjected to brutal conditions, as they try to flee to safety.
We`ve got a big show tonight. Our guest is going to be the former United States ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch. Ambassador Yovanovitch was, of course, ousted from her post in Ukraine by former President Donald Trump. So the president could further his scheme to try to get Ukraine to manufacture dirt on Joe Biden.
She gave a brave and stunning testimony at Donald Trump`s impeachment hearings, but he`s been largely silent since. She`s out with a new book. She`s going to be our guest in a few minutes for her first cable interview.
But first tonight, I want to start with a satellite image of the Ukrainian town of Mariupol. This is a set of family homes in Mariupol, a city of about 400,000 people. Now, if you squint, you can make out a church.
This photo was taken last year. Here is the exact same area today. This photo was taken this morning, the neighborhood just blown to smithereens by Russian artillery.
Here`s another satellite image from across town, a supermarket and a shopping center photographed last summer. Here is the same shopping center today. It`s been completely wiped off the map. And, of course, the pictures are even more grim up close.
I should warn you, these images are disturbing. This is outside of a children and maternity hospital in Mariupol that was directly hit by a Russian strike today.
Pregnant women were carried out of the building on stretchers. Other women had to evacuate themselves out of the building. Ukrainian authorities said the attack injured women in active labor, and left children buried under the rubble.
You can see people walking around in the massive crater, that was left by the Russian bomb the targeted the hospital. Mariupol has been a nonstop target for days now. The city is out heat and running water. People were struggling to find food. Authorities say the shelling has been non-stop, which is hampering evacuation efforts. There is a mortuary worker in Mariupol today lining up stretchers to transport the dead.
"The Associated Press" reports today that the city has suspended individual burials, and is instead burying scores of soldiers and civilians in a mass grave, because morgues are overflowing. As has been the case since this war began, it`s hard to know exactly where to focus our attention on day 14 of Russia`s unprovoked attack on Ukraine. Because Mariupol is just one city on a long list of places where the conflict is worsening day by day.
U.S. officials said today that Russian officials inched closer to Kharkiv, Ukraine`s second largest city, where heavy fire has been reported. Evacuation quarters all around the country remain stalled, with Ukraine accusing Russian troops of ignoring cease-fire agreements in those areas.
In a small town outside the capital Kyiv, authorities say they have abandoned evacuation efforts, after Russian forces blocked a convoy of civilians who are attempting to leave the city. The U.N. said today that they believe that at least 500 civilians have been killed since the conflict began, and nearly 1000 more have been injured.
NBC`s Richard Engel reported today from in and around the capital of Kyiv, speaking to Ukrainians who have been unable to get out of that city.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD ENGEL, NBC NEWS CHIEF FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: At an urgent care hospital in Kyiv, medical officials accused Russia of deliberately targeting civilians across the country. In every room, we saw civilians. This man, having a bullet removed from his leg, in an adjacent room, a man with a brain injury, he had been under his bombed home for two days before being dug out.
How are you as a medical community handling this war?
UNIDENTIFIEDM MALE: Well, you know, there is a kind of duty. We have to because we are doctors.
ENGEL: This family was escaping a suburb north of Kyiv, after Russian troops bomb their house. The family hit the road, and were quickly stopped by Russian soldiers, who waved them on. As soon as their car started moving, another group of Russian troops sprayed the car with bullets.
Sixteen-year-old Katerina (ph) was shot in the back. She collapsed unconscious on top of her eight-year-old brother, saving him.
KATERINA: The first thing I saw was my knee, it was shot right to the bone. After that, I think I fainted.
ENGEL: Her mother, Tatiana (ph), was hit by 12 bullets down her legs, while she was pleading with the Russians to stop shooting.
[21:05:08]
TATIANA: He started shouting, stop, there are children here, stop. But they didn`t stop and kept shooting. Three or four people were shooting, just as close as you are sitting right now.
ENGEL: Her husband feels guilt for not having left sooner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: It`s hard to imagine that the situation in Ukraine could get worse. And yet, today, the White House said it is concerned that Russia could be planning a chemical or biological weapons attack in Ukraine, and could be planning a false flag operation to justify that attack.
Vice President Kamala Harris moved to Europe today, with planned stops in Romania and Poland to talk strategy in Ukraine. It`s an awkward time for this trip to Poland, after the Defense Department scuttled Poland`s proposal for the U.S. to essentially act as middlemen to transfer a fleet of fighter jets to Ukraine.
The U.K. did announce today that it will supply Ukraine with a new shipment of anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles. Congress is also an in the process of finalizing a $14 billion aid package for Ukraine. It`s double with the White House had originally requested.
But if you ask Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, none of it is enough. He spoke to Alex Crawford at Sky News, and expressed his frustration with Western countries for not doing more to shield Ukraine from Russia`s relentless bombardment, and for refusing to enforce a no-fly zone over the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: You can feel it only when you are here, the people from Europe and the U.S., it`s far from Ukraine, it`s far from the heart of this tragedy. You guys, you can`t understand the details, because you are not fighting here.
We are speaking about closing the sky, you can`t decide to close or not to close, you can`t decide. If you are united against this Nazism (ph) and this terror, you have to close it. Not me -- don`t wait me asking you several times, 1 million times, close the sky. No, you have to phone us, to our people, who lost their children and say, sorry, we didn`t do it yesterday, one week ago.
We didn`t push Putin, we didn`t speak with him a lot, we didn`t find a dialogue with him, we did nothing, and it`s true. Yesterday, the world did nothing.
Believe me, believe me, if it`s prolonged this way, yes, you will see, they will close the sky. But we will lose millions of people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Starting to hear the war talked about in those kind of long term - - long run terms, because 14 days into this conflict, it already feels like an eternity.
Joining us now is NBC news correspondent Cal Perry. He is live in Lviv, Ukraine, for us tonight.
Cal, what is a situation inside the country?
CAL PERRY, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think you`ve done a tremendous job laying it out. The scenes in Mariupol are emblematic of what we are seeing, not just in the cities along the Black Sea, though, we are seeing them in a variety of cities along the Black Sea, and even the president today saying he worries that Odessa is next.
We`re also seeing in the north part of the country, in Kharkiv, where we understand the deputy mayor announcing their bodies in the streets, we have talks of mass graves in multiple cities. We have these cities under siege, and they all follow the same pattern.
The Russians surround the cities. They cut off the power. They cut off the water. They cut off the heat. And they either indiscriminately shelled the city with both tanks, with artillery, with airstrikes. But then we have these confirmed reports, now, that they are targeting civilians, as they try to leave the cities, some of which are happening in these so carloads humanitarian corridors.
There was a bit of good news today. One of those corners did function from the city of Sumy, 35,000 people were able to get out. The bad news on that though where that a lot of people just end up in Kyiv where as Richard Engel is reporting people in the suburbs are now moving into the interior of the city, because they do not trust, for all the reasons you saw in his reporting that the roads are safe. Civilians just don`t believe that they will be better off in their car sometimes, they are in a basement.
Now, add to that, you have more and more reporting from these nuclear sites. Chernobyl has been taken off the grid, that the IAEA can monitor. The IAEA saying they don`t believe that there is a danger there. But we`re also seeing that at that second power plant, the Zaporizhzhia power plant where we had that fierce fighting last week. It has also been taken away in off the grid that the IAEA can read. And so, there is growing concern amongst the civilian, across this country, hundreds of thousands of whom are internally displaced, more than 2 million have already left, you have these growing concerns, as we hear more and more about possible false flag attacks, being chemical or nuclear.
[21:10:09]
I think what we`re going to see, and I know that you`re seeing on your end, is an influx of refugees trying to get to this country, and the conditions, as you are saying, are getting worse. It is bitterly cold, bitterly cold here at the Polish border, where you are, and more and more people every night or sleeping outside.
VELSHI: Cal, it`s hard to imagine, over here at the train station I have a full train station of people waiting to get on a train a 10:00 p.m. Eastern tonight`s go to Budapest, and try to get out of here.
Cal, thanks. Stay safe. Keep your teams safe. We appreciate you`re being with us tonight. Cal Perry live in Lviv.
It was yesterday that Poland offered to send all of its MiG-29 jets, Russian made jets to Ukraine, via a U.S. airbase in Germany. One top official called the announcement a quote surprise move.
Well, today, the Pentagon spokesman made it clear, the idea was a nonstarter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Secretary Austin thanked him, the minister, for Poland`s willingness to continue to look for ways to assist Ukraine. But he stressed that we do not support the transfer of additional fighter aircrafts to the Ukrainian air force at this time, and therefore have no desire to see them in our custody either.
But this time, we believe the provision of additional fighter aircraft provides little increased capabilities, at high risk. We also believe that there are alternative options that are much better suited to support the Ukrainian military in their fight against Russia, and we will continue to pursue those options.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: All right. So the U.S. says it won`t give Ukrainian -- Ukraine the planes that they originally asked for, and that there are alternative options. But the world is asking, what are those options?
Here is one that`s been proposed, in an open letter signed by 27 foreign policy experts. Quote, we urge the Biden administration, together with NATO allies, to impose a limited no fly zone over Ukraine, starting with protection for humanitarian corridors that were agreed upon in talks between Russian and Ukrainian officials.
What we seek is the deployment of American and NATO aircraft, not in search of confrontation with Russia, but to avert ended her Russian bombardment, that would result in massive loss of Ukrainian lies, end quote.
Joining us now is one of the experts who signed that letter, John Herbst, former United States ambassador to Ukraine. He`s currently director of the Eurasia center at the Atlantic Council.
Ambassador, good evening. Thank you for making time to be with us tonight.
Let us talk about this. The world is looking at this, and they don`t really understand a disagreement between America and Poland about these particular planes. They are watching a humanitarian disaster unfold, and they want to know what can actually be done.
You and 26 others have proposed something very specific. Please tell us about it.
JOHN HERBST, ATLANTIC COUNCIL`S EURASIA CENTER SENIOR DIRECTOR: Correct. Look, it`s very simple. Moscow`s two-week-old offensive again Ukraine has largely bogged down. Putin is frustrated.
When his campaign in Syria, which he began in the fall of 2015, did not produce results, after several months he went to massive bombardment. There`s a risk he`ll do that now. He`s already bombarded residential areas in Kharkiv. If he does that, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians civilians will die.
The idea that we`re proposing is to establish, not necessarily a no-fly zone, but an area where Russian planes will not be able to bomb civilians. That is the basic idea. It`s unfortunate that this idea was rejected by the United States and NATO.
Yes? You have a question, or may I continue?
VELSHI: Yeah. No, I meant to ask you, what does -- you continue actually, I really want to ask you, when you said a-limited or contain no-fly zone, or would that look like over the country. Who determines to what it is limited?
HERBST: Well, we would make a determination, we, the U.S. government and our NATO allies, we make a determination. We look at areas where civilians are trying to get out of war zones, where we know the Russians have blocked the establishment of real humanitarian corridors. We`re certainly operating west and around Kyiv. We might operate further east where again civilians are subject to daily bombardment, and Russians aren`t letting them leave.
And we will not, unlike a irregular fly zone, initiate any action against Russian air forces. We will be there to make sure action is not taken against innocent civilians. Again, the rejection of --
VELSHI: Do you have any --
(CROSSTALK)
HERBST: Please, I`m sorry, go ahead.
VELSHI: Go ahead, I think you are going to go exactly to what was going to ask, is that the seems to have been rejected fairly quickly out of hand, you regret that that`s the case.
[21:15:01]
You think there is more creative thinking to be had between the United States and NATO?
HERBST: The rejection of this out of hand, just like the unfortunate decision by the Biden administration on the more planes to Ukraine, suggests timidity, suggests that the United States thinks that somehow we have to avoid provoking Putin.
Putin who`s just been escalating massively in Ukraine, for us to simply send those weapons to Ukraine so they could defend themselves, is a normal decision, to suggest we can`t do because escalatory suggest fear. Putin has a fine nose for detecting fear, and that just emboldens him to be more aggressive.
So we`ve seen a very sad week in American statesmanship, with regard to rejection out of hand to this limited no-fly zone, and rejection of these warplanes to a country that is defending itself against a much stronger neighbor.
VELSHI: Ambassador, the things that are starting to look like war crimes, the potential deliberate targeting, the attacks on hospitals, does that change the way the United States and the world should be looking at this, if this is becoming a humanitarian catastrophe that we need to get involved in to solve, and we need to maybe make the idea of getting into a conflict with Russia of secondary importance.
HERBST: Of course, you are right. And that is what makes those decisions so shortsighted. The American public overwhelmingly supports Ukraine facing this massive aggression from Moscow. If in fact, Moscow moves this massive bombardment, the public is going to be calling for us to do more.
And, you know, we saw the president, President Biden last week reject stopping oil purchases from Russia. Then under congressional and public pressure, he changed his mind. And this may well happen again.
Once Moscow begins a campaign that murderous tens of thousands of civilians, we may be forced to act precisely along the lines that my 26 colleagues suggested. We should not be saying no to a proposal which would save those lives.
VELSHI: Ambassador, thank you for your time tonight, I apologize for interrupting you, we have a delay because of the way things go when we are out in the field. And I apologize. Thank you for your wisdom and your analysis, for joining us tonight -- John Herbst --
(CROSSTALK)
HERBST: I can?
VELSHI: Sorry, yes, go ahead.
HERBST: OK, look, if -- again, what we`ve done by taking these two off the table only temporarily, we`re conveying to Moscow that we could be intimidated. That`s a dangerous thing for a man like Putin. We are far more powerful than Russia. We need to remember that we`re a superpower. And that Putin has to worry about us at least as much if not more than we have to worry about him.
And that should undergird our diplomacy and our national security policy in this crisis. Thank you.
VELSHI: Ambassador, we appreciate your time.
John Herbst is the former United States ambassador to Ukraine, the current director of the Eurasia Center at the Atlantic Council.
We`ve got more to get to tonight, including our live interview with the former United States ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch. She joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:22:28]
VELSHI: Russia`s invasion of the whole of Ukraine began two weeks ago. But Russia first invaded Ukraine eight years ago. In 2014, Russia invaded not just Crimea, but also the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine. And while Russia took full control of Crimea, in the Donbas, in southeastern Ukraine, Ukrainian and Russian militaries have been fighting, essentially, a trench war ever since.
It`s been brutal. Thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians have died over the last eight years. And so, when Marie Yovanovitch became the new United States ambassador to Ukraine in 2016, one of her very first stops when she arrived in Kyiv was the wall of remembrance, a memorial wall honoring Ukrainian soldiers killed by Russia in the Donbas.
She also visited the front lines of the conflict in Donbas. That`s her on the, left by the, way with U.S. Senators Klobuchar, McCain, and Graham, visiting Ukrainian troops on New Year`s Eve in 2016.
She would visit the frontlines ten times as ambassador. She said it was to, quote, show the American flag and hear what was going on, sometimes literally as we heard the impact of artillery. When Marie Yovanovitch arrived in Ukraine in 2016, she was a veteran foreign services officer. In the previous decade, she had been the ambassador to Kyrgyzstan and the ambassador to Armenia.
She had experience in Ukraine, by the way. In the early 2000, she was the deputy chief of mission at the U.S. embassy in Kyiv. That`s her on the right performing election monitoring in Ukraine`s 2002 parliamentary elections.
When she returned to Ukraine in 2016, in addition to showing American support for Ukraine in its war with Russia, the other major pillar of Marie Yovanovitch`s job as ambassador was to promote anti-corruption efforts. Just a couple of years earlier, Ukrainians had kicked out there fantastically corrupt pro-Russian president and what was called the Revolution of Dignity.
It was Ambassador Yovanovitch`s job, and the policy of the United States government, to push the new Ukrainian government to fulfill its promises to end corruption and to practice good governance. Now, of course, a lot of powerful people in Ukraine were not interested in reform. Marie Yovanovitch expected to make enemies in Ukraine for carrying out her work.
What she did not expect was for those animals to have help from Washington and, in particular, from the president of the United States.
[21:25:01]
Because, of course, Marie Yovanovitch would go on to be ousted from her post by President Donald Trump. And when he was impeached for trying to extort the Ukrainian government for his own personal gain, the former ambassador would become a central witness in that impeachment.
One thing that comes through in Marie Yovanovitch`s book, recounting of all of this, it`s called "Lessons from the Edge", is her absolute disbelief at the path that her life was taking as all this unfolded. We now know that President Trump was involved in a multi-pronged effort to pressure the Iranian government to manufacture dirt on Joe Biden and that he ultimately withheld vital -- vital money and weapons and a coveted White House meeting from Ukraine as part of that pressure campaign.
We now know that Ambassador Yovanovitch was perceived as the impediment to their plans, because she was a stalwart opponent of the corrupt figures in Ukraine who were helping Trump and his allies manufacture this dirt on Biden. We now know all that.
But at the time, it seemed literally unbelievable. At one point, Ukraine`s deputy foreign minister came to Ambassador Yovanovitch`s residents to warn her that a corrupt prosecutor that she butted heads with was working with Rudy Giuliani to spread lies about them. Yovanovitch could not believe that her job would be in real danger.
Quote, I knew that this Ukrainian prosecutor was going to try to make life uncomfortable for me in Ukraine. I understood that he had joined forces with Giuliani and that they both wanted me fired. But I still couldn`t imagine that they were going to be successful. The notion that an unscrupulous, disgruntled foreign official, or even a president`s personal dirt digger could actually manipulate the U.S. government to act against the sitting U.S. ambassador was inconceivable to me, end quote.
The very next month, Yovanovitch was suddenly recalled to Washington in the middle of the night and summarily dismissed as ambassador. That happened just three days after the election of a new Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy. He was about to get sucked right into the middle of Donald Trump`s extortion scheme. And Marie Yovanovitch, the veteran ambassador, who was such a staunch ally of Ukraine and its fight against both Russia and corruption would not be there to back him up.
A few months later, Yovanovitch was called to testify at Donald Trump`s impeachment hearings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIE YOVANOVITCH, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: How could our system fail like this? How is it that foreign, corrupt interests can manipulate our government? Which country`s interests are served when the very corrupt behavior we are criticizing is allowed to prevail?
Such conduct undermines the U.S., exposes our friends and widens the playing field for autocrats like President Putin. Our leadership depends on the power of our example and the consistency of our purpose. Both have now been open to question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Such conduct exposes our friends and why didn`t the playing field for autocrats like president Putin, end quote. Well, now that we are, here two weeks into Putin`s brutal, all out war on Ukraine, it is hard not to wonder just how much that shameful chapter led us to where we are today. How clearly can we trace the line from Donald Trump`s undermining of Ukraine to the current catastrophe?
Joining me now is the former United States ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch. Her new book, "Lessons from the Edge", comes out next week, and we have never needed her insights more than we do right now.
Ambassador, thank you so much for joining us. And I have to tell you, it is very noisy here because they have just announced -- we are at the train station -- they have just announced a special trained to Budapest, which will be leading here probably within the next half an hour or so. You can see people loading up.
These are people who came in from all parts of Ukraine. They are escaping. It is mostly women and children, as we have described. That train that you are looking at right now is going to be heading to Budapest. From there, people will try to find a new life, I met people who know where they are going and I met others who do not.
So, I apologize for the noise. I apologize to our audience, but this is an active train station.
Ambassador, I want to get to those questions about your experience under the Trump administration and the Ukraine scheme for which he was impeached. But first I want to talk to you about what is happening right now in this country of Ukraine that you love so much. You were ambassador for several years, until 2019, when you were -- you seem to be as surprised as most people that this invasion actually happened.
Tell me what you thought was going to happen and what the last two weeks have looked like to you?
YOVANOVITCH: Well, as we all know, the U.S. government was sharing intelligence with the world. So, as we could see the troops gathering around Ukraine and encircling Ukraine, it became clearer and clearer to me and I think too many people that there was going to be an invasion.
[21:30:09]
You know, I had hoped that it would be a limited invasion, but it appears that that is not the case. And it is hard to believe, i, think certainly for me and I think for probably many people in our audience, that it has only been two weeks. I mean, it feels like there`s a very sharp break before the invasion and today.
And it is tragic, as you see in Putin`s brutal invasion of Ukraine.
VELSHI: You know a lot of people in Ukraine. What are you hearing from? What are they telling you?
YOVANOVITCH: Well, it`s across the board. I mean, it is disbelief and anguish and its cries for help. But I am also hearing the resilient nature of Ukrainian people. What you are seeing, you know, in living rooms and online every -- every day. The Ukrainian people do not give up.
I`ve been in touch with some in the Ukrainian government, someone who is quite high up, and he`s working seven floors down in a bunker. He says there is no light, there is no air, there our only government people and security people. And he talks about the difference between life and their life on the surface, but he says we are motivated and are going to fight for Ukraine.
On the surface, as he calls it, you can see all of the people in Ukraine, ordinary citizens, like you and myself, who are setting about for the country for this brutal invasion.
VELSHI: What do you think Vladimir Putin`s and goal is here. At first it was to extend the umbrella of protection to Russians speakers in Ukraine, we knew that wasn`t true, then it was to replace the government with one that was, once again, friendlier to Russia than to the West. But now this just looks like a campaign of destruction.
YOVANOVITCH: It does. It looks like a campaign of vengeance, because it was not the cakewalk that he was anticipating. I do think that Putin has had an obsession with Ukraine for many years. He`s made that clear in his writings, and in his actions.
And he invaded Georgia in 2008. He invaded Ukraine in 2014, as he recounted. And he got away with both of those actions. I think he thought he was going to get away with it again, that Ukraine would not be able to put up the kind of resistance that we are seeing, both on the part of the military, as well as the government and the citizens of Ukraine.
I think he badly underestimated the reaction of the international community, that we would be united in the face of what can only be called depravity.
VELSHI: Is there a world in which the Ukrainian people win this fight? We`ve been thinking that members of parliament who are saying they`ve got the drive in them to do it, but they can not do it with more assistance from the globe. Do you think there`s any chance of Ukraine prevailing?
YOVANOVITCH: I think -- here`s what I know. Russia is not going to prevail. Russia may, overtime, if it really doubles down, they may win the war, but they are never going to win the peace. Because the Ukrainian people will resist, as you are seeing them do every day, right now.
They will resist through a guerrilla movement, they will resist through acts of civil disobedience. They will make the price so high for a Russian occupation, that it will not be sustainable. Russia`s miscalculation in invading Ukraine is, you know, a tragedy for the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian nation.
But it`s also a tragedy for the Russian people, whose future is now been mortgage by the blood and treasure that the Russians extended in Ukraine.
VELSHI: I want to ask you about this no-fly zone, whether it`s the full one with the Ukrainian president is looking for, or a narrower one as I spoke to Ambassador Herbst about, a narrower one. What is -- what do you believe the likelihood of something like that happening is, and what do you think the U.S. administration to should be doing?
YOVANOVITCH: Yeah, I think it`s a very important question to ask. I think we need to ask ourselves, as the international community, how do we help the Ukraine, how do we support Ukraine, how do we save Ukraine without expanding the war in ways that nobody wants to see?
And, you know, on the one hand, I think that nobody wants to push Putin over the edge, but on the other hand, what does it say about us and our values, we have -- if we don`t provide greater military assistance. We have the means to stop, or at least mitigate the worst carnage.
[21:35:04]
And you know, as your previous guest said, will we at some later point have to intervene at a time that is perhaps more difficult?
I think this question of risk is very important one. We need to mitigate the risk, but it`s also true that not taking greater action comes with a risk as well, because Putin is a bully, and he only understands strength.
VELSHI: Ambassador, I want to ask you, if we just take a quick break, we`ve got a lot more of that we want to discuss with you if you don`t mind sticking around for us.
Our guest is the former ambassador to the Ukraine, Maria Yovanovitch. Her brand new book is "Lessons from the Edge". We`ll have more from the ambassador when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:40:31]
VELSHI: You`re taking a look at the train here that has been loaded up with people who are on their way to Budapest. The train is supposed to leave at 10:05 Eastern, in about 25 minutes. We are watching people come out and fill that train up.
I`m joined once again by the former ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch.
Ambassador, thank you for waiting and for being with us.
Colonel Alexander Vindman was on the show earlier this week. He essentially told me that he believes there`s essentially a direct line between what happened on that July 2019 phone call between Donald Trump and President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and what we`re seeing now. He believes that Donald Trump weakened Zelenskyy by withholding a White House meeting, and military aid, at the exact time that Zelenskyy, who was a new and untried president needed it the most.
Two and a half years later, how damaging was that whole incident, in which you also became involved to the standing and potential success of President Zelenskyy in Ukraine right now?
YOVANOVITCH: Well, there is no question that that whole series of events really damaged the trust between two countries. Zelenskyy had been, a non- politician, he`d been a comedian. And this is one of his first experiences in international relations, and, you know, he said that after that, he didn`t really trust any other countries.
So, it was quite damaging. But even more so I think when the transcripts were released, others like President Putin could see the contempt with which President Trump was dealing with President Zelenskyy. I think that in itself was very damaging.
And more broadly, the whole world could see that the president of the United States was ready to trade our national security interests for his own personal political gain. Hugely, hugely damaging, because you have everybody who is so inclined wanting to jump on to the gravy train. So, yeah, I would say it was a very damaging incident.
But fast forward to today, Zelenskyy, President Zelenskyy has made the transition from comedian to president of a developing democracy, to a war hero, a man who is inspiring not only his own country, but the world.
VEL.SHI: Let me ask you about that, because you say, and you write so eloquently in your book, about how your efforts were there to help Ukraine evolve, and come out of this sort of corruption it had been involved in. It definitely was a country that faced a lot of corruption. You are there to kind of backstop, and help those anti-corruption people in Ukraine.
Let me just see what`s going on here, it seems like this train is on its way to leaving.
And that`s what happened, Donald Trump and his people sort of came in the way of that sort of thing. Tell me what would have happened if they hadn`t. Would there have been -- would Zelenskyy have been in a stronger position - - I`m going to ask you for a moment to hang on and answer to that. I`m going to ask Jim to just pull out.
This is a train that is leaving Zahony station on the Hungarian border. The passengers of this train are coming from Ukraine. They are now headed to Budapest. This train will actually stop in Budapest. On Thursday night, you saw I was in the Budapest station. They will from there be greeted by more relief workers, who will provide them with transportation, and accommodation in Budapest, or to the airport, or to the embassies where they can get their visas and they can move on to points west.
Some will stay in Budapest. Others will go on. We just spoke to a woman who is heading to Prague. She is here with their friend, and their little children. That`s the last train we`re going to see probably for a couple of hours.
Ambassador, I`m sorry for the interruption. Tell me about this effort that you are involved in to fight corruption in Ukraine and try and get it to a place where it could join the European Union, and ultimately NATO.
YOVANOVITCH: Well, that was U.S. policy. It was also Ukrainian policy, following the Revolution of Dignity in 2014, and with that term means, it`s kind of an obscure term for Americans. What it means is, rule of law.
Ukrainians were tired of having one set of rules for the oligarchs and leaders of the country, where they can do everything they wanted, and ordinary people had to follow the laws, and were often the victims of corrupt efforts to shake them down, and so forth.
[21:45:05]
People were sick of it. And they mounted the street demonstrations, because they wanted to join the E.U., when the previous pro-Russian president had turned his back on that, and it turned into the Revolution of Dignity.
And so, there was a -- President Poroshenko came in. And there is a very clear policy on the part of the Ukrainian government, and pro-reform activists, and politicians, that they wanted to turn the country around, get a hold of corruption, move forward on their democratic efforts, and create the rule of law in Ukraine.
And we wanted to support that. We thought that would be terrific for Ukraine, a country after all, 44 million people in the heart of Europe. And, we thought it would be good for us as well, to have a strong democratic country as a partner, in that part of Europe.
So, we all were working quite hard to support the efforts of the Ukrainians in that direction. I think Zelenskyy, first in his first pro-reform government was working in that direction. To say that reforms in any country, whether it`s the U.S., Ukraine, or third country, it goes in fits and starts, it`s never a straight line.
So, the Ukrainians have made progress since 2014, they have made progress since Zelenskyy came to power. But it`s not a straight line, and I think the Ukrainian people are still hoping for more progress, in that area.
But right now, the entire country, the entire political spectrum is united behind President Zelenskyy to fight the common foe, which is Russia.
VELSHI: Yeah, it`s important to remember that no country is a monolith, and Ukraine has its own politics inside of it. But right now they are united around this. A final comment from you, a final thought from you.
You knew of Volodymyr Zelenskyy when he first became president. Most Americans haven`t heard the name. They have -- he`s a young man. He`s 44 years old right now, as recently as a month ago, there were Western leaders saying this guy is not up to the challenge of going against the master manipulator, Vladimir Putin.
What has Volodymyr Zelenskyy done that has impressed you in the past several weeks?
YOVANOVITCH: Well, I`ve been very impressed by how he has used his communication skills, as an actor, as comedian, and his executive skills, as the head of a large media empire, and now the president of a large country in the heart of Europe.
He has combined those two talents to communicate with his people in a time of great stress in peril. Unite the Ukrainian people behind him, and inspire the world. He has -- the man has met the moment, he is a true Ukrainian hero right now.
VELSHI: Ambassador, thank you for your time tonight. We really appreciate it. Former ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, she`s the author of a new memoir called "Lessons from the Edge". We really appreciate you being with us this evening.
We`ll continue with more ahead. Stay with us.
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VELSHI: Here in Zahony, Hungary, this is a way station where people have made it out of Ukraine and are waiting for their next train which is that train to take them further down the line.
Just before I got on air, I met two women who whose young children were fast asleep, not realizing that they were out of harm`s way.
Here`s a little bit of the conversation I had.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HELEN ULIASHINSKA, UKRAINIAN REFUGEE: Mine is a boy, his name is Andre. Yes, he is -- girl, Lisa, name.
VELSHI: How old are they?
ULIASHINSKA: Almost seven.
VELSHI: Both of them?
ULIASHINSKA: Yes, yes.
VELSHI: Where you`re coming from you?
ULIASHINSKA: We are from Ukraine --
VELSHI: Where is that?
ULIASHINSKA: Near Kyiv.
VELSHI: Who have you brought, and who is behind, who has been left behind?
ULIASHINSKA: I`m with my friend you --
VELSHI: And you are Eliana?
ULIASHINSKA: Yes, that`s my friend.
(INAUDIBLE)
VELSHI: Are your kids scared, they know what`s happening?
ULIASHINSKA: They know, I think they don`t understand always. It`s very scary.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we cannot get over the shock.
ULIASHNSKA: It`s very scared. I can`t sleep at night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: The final stop for those two women and their 27 year old children will be in Prague in the Czech Republic, they will go first to Budapest and then they will go on to Prague.
We`ll have more from Hungary when we come back.
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[21:59:25]
VELSHI: We are in Zahony, Hungary, on the border with Ukraine. We`ve seen two trains now leave for Budapest.
The reason they are not very full is because there are border procedures on the other side, they really can`t just flow in here, there`s a very long line up on the other side. The town on the other side of this border is called Chop (ph), and another of these border crossings have lineups of people both in cars and on foot waiting to get in. We were told, yesterday, that the lineups are stretching from what we`re sort of six hours early in the week, to 12 hours and, those may increase.
So there are a lot more people are willing to come through, but they trickle through as they get stopped on the border.
We`ll, of course, continue to cover the story for you, and all these people are trying to make their way from danger into a better life somewhere else in Europe.
That does it for us tonight. We`re going to see you again tomorrow.
It`s time now for "THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL".
Lawrence, good evening.