BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST: The breaking news tonight, we`ve heard from the Mueller team once again, and while a lot of it is blacked out, it`s clear that the first big Trump aide to flip Mike Flynn told them a lot, and they`re asking a judge for lenience as the Russian drama continues. Speaking of which, the President`s friend of three decades, Roger Stone, wants to take the Fifth before a Senate Committee. He says he is not talking but is he trying to send a message?
And against all of that, Donald Trump will be just one of five presidents as Washington comes together to bid farewell to 41, who even in passing, has brought a rare moment of peace to our politics. As THE 11TH HOUR gets underway on this Tuesday night.
Well, good evening from the nation`s Capitol tonight. That`s a live picture, under guard the casket of George H.W. Bush inside the Capitol Rotunda as ordinary Americans continue filing past, thousands of them yet in line on a bitter, cold night. The state funeral for the former President will be tomorrow morning.
To the business of this presidency, now day 684 of the Trump administration, and Special Counsel Robert Mueller is, tonight, recommending little or no prison time for former Trump National Security Adviser, Michael Flynn, who pleaded guilty one year ago to lying to the FBI to cover up his discussions with Russia`s ambassador to the U.S.
Just a few hours ago, the cryptic Mueller team filed a sentencing memo for Flynn in federal court here in Washington. The documents note that, "Given the defendant`s substantial assistance and other considerations, a sentence at the low end of the guideline range, including a sentence that does not impose a term of incarceration, is appropriate and warranted."
An additional memo lays out how Flynn helped Mueller`s investigation, but as you can see, a lot of it is blacked out, and that in itself is telling, as we`ll discuss in a moment. It does show that Flynn, "has assisted with several ongoing investigations," telling again, including an "investigation concerning any links or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Trump." And that he, "participated in 19 interviews with the Feds and provided documents and communications."
This filing notes that Flynn started working with the government not long after it first sought his cooperation. We quote again, "His early cooperation was particularly valuable because he was one of the few people with long-term and firsthand insight regarding events and issues under investigation by the SCO," the Special Counsel`s office.
The Mueller team also notes, "the defendant`s military and public service are exemplary. He served in the military for over 33 years, including five years of combat duty, led the defense intelligence agency and retired as a Three-Star Lieutenant General. The defendant`s record of military and public service distinguish him from every other person who has been charged. However, senior government leaders should be held to the highest standards."
You may recall Flynn was an adviser to Trump`s campaign, and along with the candidate back then, helped to lead the attack on Hillary Clinton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL FLYNN, FMR. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR TO PRES. TRUMP: Lock her up, lock her up!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lock her up! Lock her up! Lock her up!
FLYNN: You guys are good. And damn right. You`re exactly right. There is nothing wrong with that!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: After Donald Trump won the election, President Obama reportedly warned him not to hire Flynn. Flynn was, in fact, tapped, however, as National Security Adviser on November 17.
On December 1, Flynn and Jared Kushner met with the Russian ambassador who later told Moscow that Kushner asked about setting up back channel for communications between the Trump team and the Kremlin. Later that month, Flynn spoke with Kislyak, the ambassador more than once, including after Obama imposed sanctions on Russia for election meddling.
Flynn was sworn in as National Security Adviser January 22nd of 2017. By that time, news of his conversations about the Russian ambassador had emerged, and Vice President Mike Pence had been asking about them. Two days after his swearing in, Flynn was interviewed by the FBI.
January 26, then, acting Attorney General Sally Yates told the White House about Flynn lying and potentially being vulnerable to blackmail.
February 9, the "Washington Post" reveals Flynn talked with Ambassador Kislyak about sanctions. And on February 13, Flynn stepped down. The White House said Flynn was fired for misleading Pence and other senior officials about his discussions with Kislyak.
The next day at a private Oval Office meeting, Trump brought up Flynn with then FBI Director James Comey who later made immediate and contemporaneous notes of their conversation. Comey was asked about that during a Senate hearing in June 2017.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM RISCJ, (R) IDAHO SENATOR: You wrote down the words so we can all have the words in front of us now. There`s 28 words and it says, in quotes, and it says, "I hope "-- this is the President speaking -- "I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go. He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go."
Now, those are his exact words, is that correct?
JAMES COMEY, FMR. FBI DIRECTOR: Correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Let`s bring in our lead-off panel on this Tuesday night. Cynthia Alksne is here with us, a former Federal Prosecutor and a Veteran of the Justice Department who has worked in the past with one, Robert Mueller. Former Federal Prosecutor Glen Kirschner is with us, happens to have also worked with Robert Mueller. And Matthew Miller, former Chief Spokesman for the Department of Justice.
Good evening and welcome to you all.
Cynthia, I`d like to begin with you. What did you learn from this document and what stands out?
CYNTHIA ALKSNE, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, I wish I learned more.
WILLIAMS: Yes, there`s a lot of blacking out.
ALKSNE: There is a lot of blacking out. Like, there`s no more ink in my printer anymore.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
ALKSNE: And I`m a little bitter about it. But aside from that, and the obvious things, the one thing that`s standing out to me now is the White House has got to be pretty nervous. Because, you know, there is no joint defense agreement with Flynn, nor should there be because he`s cooperating. But the White House has broken rules with Manafort. But there is no defense agreement, so they realize he`s given substantial assistance and they don`t know what it is.
And one person that comes up with Flynn time and time again is Kushner. It`s -- the way you mention in -- there`s the discussion of the sanctions, they are setting up that backchannel, the U.N. agreement, the U.N. motion on Israel`s settlements. all of that happened with Flynn and with Kushner.
And now we know that Robert Mueller believes Flynn, and he`s been helpful. He`s brought other people in to cooperate. He`s brought documents. He has e-mails and he shared it all. Were I Kushner, I would be on the phone to my friend Abby Lowell right now saying, "uh-oh."
WILLIAMS: Glen, I heard it said on this network tonight two things. That number one, this is like a reverse groundhog day. His document tonight means we`ve got at least six months more of this because there`s tangents and trenches that they have yet to go down, Corsi and Stone among them.
Number two, that this document shows job security on the part of Robert Mueller. He`s not -- because of all this black ink we`re talking about, this is not Mueller saying, "OK, everybody, this is what we have so far," this is Mueller saying "we have a lot, we`re retaining a lot and we`re moving on." Do you concur?
GLENN KIRSCHNER, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I do. I think those are both fair inferences, Brian, from what we see here. I really think one of the stories is the redaction`s. We`ve all been surmising that, you know, we must be close. Mueller is probably preparing to drop a big conspiracy indictment any day now.
I think when we see that there was so much redacted out of this sentencing memo that Mueller feels like there is a lot. He is not yet prepared to share with the American people or with the court in this memo. I think he has a lot of work to do, so perhaps we do have six more weeks of winter.
And I do think all of these redaction`s tend to show he has no sense of urgency at this moment. He does not feel the need to all of a sudden get in front of an acting Attorney General Whitaker who might be looking to reign him in or tamp him down. He is content to do things on his own timetable, in his own way, and he didn`t feel the need to put a whole bunch of information into the public square in this memo. So I think both of those inferences are fairly drawn from these documents.
WILLIAMS: Matt, my first question for you is procedural. I just heard myself again using that word "backchannel to Russia." That`s inaccurate.
What they were trying to set up, I believe, was a work around. Backchannel we have. It`s the red phone. It was put in at the height of bad relations to keep things from boiling over.
This was not that. And this was not a thing. This would have been something extraordinary that Kushner was talking about. That`s point one.
Point two, in your view, why should, to Cynthia`s point, the Trump administration be so worried about this guy, General?
MATTHEW MILLER, FMR. JUSTICE DEPT. CHIEF SPOKESMAN: So, I think on point one, the best way to think of what they were doing is, they were trying to establish a secret channel with Russia.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: That`s right. That no one in the U.S. government could overhear. And they were trying to do it using, remember, Russian communications equipment. I think Jared Kushner proposed maybe h could come over to Russian --
WILLIAMS: Go to your place, yes.
MILLER: -- and use Russian equipment to try to communicate with people in the Kremlin. It`s hard to imagine what it was they needed to have, that they were so worried about the sitting U.S. government monitoring at the time. So I think that is the important point.
Second, with respect to -- what was the second question?
WILLIAMS: Why is he so dangerous to the Trump administration?
MILLER: Yes, is he so -- I think the thing that I found most interesting in this filing is, it`s not just that Mike Flynn is cooperating with respect to the Russia investigation. If you read the filing, it`s clear he`s cooperating with at least two. It`s hard to tell because the redaction`s, I think, are more likely readings that he`s cooperating with three investigations. We don`t know what all those are but it`s clear in the memo that he`s cooperating with other offices outside the Special Counsel`s offices, he knows that he met with offices. Those could relate to this other thing.
We know Mueller has been looked at that relate to do this very complicated meeting between the UAE and couple of lobbyist, Elliott Broidy and George Nader. We know that Mike Flynn sat in a meeting with Jared Kushner and the crown prince of the UAE during the transition that`s been under scrutiny. That could be one of the matters.
It could be something completely different. We don`t know. And the point is, the President and no one else in the White House of administration knows either. That must be terrifying to them.
WILLIAMS: So, Cynthia, at once they`re telling us how much the tonnage of his cooperation, which was a lot.
ALKSNE: Right.
WILLIAMS: And at the same time they`re saying, by filing this, we`re done, thank you very much.
ALKSNE: Well, I`m not convinced they`re saying that. They may still call on him.
But let`s talk about the tonnage of his cooperation. He met with him 19 times.
WILLIAMS: It`s a lot.
ALKSNE: It`s a lot. But here -- just let me give you some context.
WILLIAMS: OK.
ALSKNE: I tried 50 cases. I never met with one witness 19 times in my whole life. I mean, Glenn has probably tried 200, 500 cases, I don`t know. I bet you never met with the same witness 19 times.
WILLIAMS: I`m guessing it`s not because you were shoddy lawyers.
ALKSNE: No. Yes.
KIRSCHNER: You know, we were talking about that outside. I mean, tried one murder case four times, and I was preparing to try it a fifth because apparently I couldn`t get it right the first four. Over the span of those almost five trials, I don`t think I met with a witness 19 times. And for all of his assistance, how much jail time is being recommended? Zero. You can`t get more lenient than zero.
ALKSNE: You can`t. So that means, first of all, there was a lot to get out of him. I mean, you can only ask like so many questions about, on Tuesday, what did you do, so many times, right?
WILLIAMS: Yes.
ALKSNE: So there has to be a bunch of different things that he`s talking about in order to meet with him 19 times, a. And b, it has to be of such value that Mueller would be willing to give him no jail time.
WILLIAMS: Yes. Well, when you put it that way, it sounds convincing.
Now let`s pretend I`m a federal judge, because only in the world of pretend will I be a federal judge. Am I swayed by your recommendation of little or no incarceration?
ALKSNE: Sure. Absolutely.
WILLIAMS: OK.
ALKSNE: Absolutely. Especially when you -- I mean, like everything in life, reputation matters.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
ALKSNE: And the federal judge knows Mueller`s reputation and the reputation of these lawyers that he`s coming in with. And he also knows what he`s doing on other cases. So, yes, absolutely you`re swayed.
WILLIAMS: And Matt, on the tonnage, this is our friend Shannon Pettipiece from Bloomberg put this out on Twitter tonight, "Mueller spends an impressive amount of time with his witnesses. Nineteen interviews with Flynn, 70 hours with Cohen, that`s so far, up to 30 hours with McGahn." That`s some impressive mathematics.
MILLER: Yes. And we don`t know how much time with Rick Gates, one of the other cooperators, but you assume it would be a lot. I think one of the take away you can get from here, when someone comes in and cooperates with Bob Mueller as Mike Flynn did. You know Mike Flynn made a mistake. He lied to the FBI about a couple of different things early on, actually before Mueller was appointed. But he got right with the Special Counsel pretty early. He came and he cooperated quite extensively.
Rick gates, eventually caught cooperated quite extensively. We don`t know, you know, what he`s sentence will ultimately look like. But Mike Flynn is going to walk away, you know, probably with no jail time here.
Contrast that with Paul Manafort, someone who took the opposite approach with the Special Counsel, who refused to cooperate, who after he was indicted continued to obstruct justice and tamper with witnesses, according to the Special Counsel. After he cut a cooperation agreement, then continued to lie, and look what he`s going to get on the other side. He`s going to get probably the rest of his life in jail.
I think the Special Counsel has sent a signal. If you cooperate with me, I`m going to have a lot of questions for you, you`re going to spend a lot of time with me, but at the end of the day, if you cooperate and you answer my questions truthfully, I`m going to treat you fairly.
WILLIAMS: I can`t thank you guys enough for coming on tonight and explaining what we have been looking at.
ALKSNE: Somebody, sent me an ink for my printer.
WILLIAMS: Yes. The black stuff especially is very hard to read intentionally.
To Glenn Kirschner, to Matt Miller, to Cynthia Alksne, our thanks.
And coming up, more on the political implications for the President after tonight`s developments.
And later, these live pictures that continue to come in from the Capitol Rotunda where ordinary Americans have lined up in the cold all night last night, all day today, all night tonight to say farewell to our 41st President on the eve of his state funeral service in that majestic structure. More when we come back from Washington on a Tuesday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: General Flynn is a wonderful man. I think he`s been treated very, very unfairly by the media.
I feel badly for General Flynn. He lost his house, he lost his life, and some people say he lied and some people say he didn`t lie. I mean, really, it turned out maybe he didn`t lie.
Well, I feel badly for General Flynn. I feel very badly. He`s led a very strong life and I feel very badly, John. I will say this, Hillary Clinton lied many times to the FBI. Nothing happened to her. Flynn lied and they destroyed his life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Interesting to see the progression of comments. President Bush, however, has long defended his former National Security Adviser and ally.
Tonight we learn more about the extent to which Michael Flynn has been cooperating with team Mueller. We now know, as we were saying in the first segment, he has participated in 19 interviews with the Special Counsel and DOJ. He has been assisting in several ongoing investigations. And we know he has done enough for the feds to recommend leniency in sentencing. Perhaps no jail time at all. Much of exactly what that entails, however, remains a mystery.
Here to talk about it with us tonight, two of our returning favorites, Phil Rucker, Pulitzer Prize-Winning White House Bureau Chief the "Washington Post," and Robert Costa, National Political Reporter also of with the "Washington Post," also moderator of Washington Week on PBS.
Mr. Costa, the Flynn you came to know barnstorming around the country covering the early days of the campaign, when Rudy Giuliani says this tonight isn`t a very big deal after all, should we assume the opposite?
ROBERT COSTA, THE WASHINGTON POST NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: I was just thinking back to when Phil and I were at the Republican Nation Convention trailing General Flynn around. He was part of that Trump inner circle. We were looking for quotes from him. He was someone who was close to the candidate. He was even considered a vice presidential candidate by Mr. Trump at the time in the summer of 2016.
He was a confidante when a lot of people in the military and political establishment wouldn`t give then candidate Trump the time of day. He was there at Trump tower briefing the candidate, helping him feel like he was familiar with foreign affairs and military policy.
This is a significant blow to see this kind of cooperation detailed out for a White House that`s under siege. You see a pattern building from Robert Mueller. All these different instances whether it`s Michael Cohen, Kislyak, and Flynn, Paul Manafort, all these different instances. We don`t know the intent yet, whether there was a criminal conspiracy. What we know there`s a pattern of behavior here that could raise questions.
WILLIAMS: And again, Phil, it is hard to know what`s behind the black lines.
PHILIP RUCKER, WASHINGTON POST WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF: Yes.
WILLIAMS: But part of what we are allowed to read tonight, Mueller`s team seems to be saying, because he was a big fish and because he came over to team USA early that he might have inspired others to cooperate.
RUCKER: Yes, that seems to be the signal, and they`re also signaling that Flynn was not only a campaign confidante of the President, and the National Security Adviser in the White House but was intimately involved in that transition period, those two months between the election in November of 2016 and when President Trump took office, making choices about who would be filling key jobs inside the administration, making choices about which foreign leaders President Trump would speak to and about what topics and so forth. There`s a lot of information there.
Nineteen different sessions with the Special Counsel team. That is a lot. That`s not five meetings, that`s not six or seven, that`s 19. And I think if you`re President Trump at this hour, you`re a little bit concerned and wondering what exactly Flynn was talking about.
WILLIAMS: And Robert, if this were an episode of "Sesame Street," it would also be brought to you by the number 18. That`s the number of days since between Sally Yates` warning, you got to get this guy out of your midst. And Flynn`s actual departure from the White House, for all of you writing books about this period, what an 18-day period that will go down as, because Yates is sitting at her office at Justice wondering what damage is being done.
COSTA: Phil was so right to point out the transition, because it`s not just those 18 days, it`s the transition period that leads into the first month of the administration. Remember, they kicked out Governor Christie`s playbook --
WILLIAMS: Chris Christie was there until he wasn`t.
COSTA: -- to the transition. And then Steve Bannon takes over, Vice President Pence takes a role of source (ph) in the transition. And you know, all of these different power centers within Trump Tower, different people coming up for meetings. Flynn on his own really is an island working with President-elect Trump. And that`s where the problem started. That`s where a lot of the chaos started in 2017. It started in the winter of 2016 because there was no one really in charge, and someone like Flynn based on our report, he was freelancing.
WILLIAMS: Let me take you back, Phil, to a simpler time. Yesterday, the lead story was, is the President engaging in obstruction or witness tampering in realtime?
RUCKER: Or both.
WILLIAMS: In plain sight or both.
RUCKER: Yes.
WILLIAMS: So that is part of the expanse of his head as he walks into that cathedral tomorrow, one of five U.S. Presidents with all of this going on subterranean. What do you think we`ll see and experience?
RUCKER: You know, it`s a good question. I`m not sure what we`ll see. But I`ve been so struck the last few days, how remarkably well behaved President Trump has been. I was with him covering the trip in Argentina over the weekend. And we`re used to these summits where he has an explosion, or there is a feud with another leader, or he gets on the plane to fly home and starts tweet-attacking the prime minister of Canada as he did the last time those leaders got together for global summit.
WILLIAMS: All real things, yes.
RUCKER: And he didn`t do any of that. He was pretty restrained and he continues to be restrained in these couple of days while the country is mourning the loss of George H.W. Bush and thinking about the differences between the 41st President and the 45th President. That has to be getting under Trump`s skin just based on what we know about him and have seen in the past and yet he has not reacted in a public way yet.
We`ll see if he does tomorrow. I suspect he`s going to try to be -- to keep it together, but he has so much pressure amounting with the Russia probe, and then so many other anxiety given the commentary in the country right now.
COSTA: Talking to Trump confidence, I asked about this, and I said, "What is this -- what explains the behavior?" And they said, "Well, his New York military catering (ph)." Remember his father venerates the military. He venerates the military, even though he didn`t serve. He`s the one who`s always admired military culture.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: And part of him the word strong when he discusses them as he just did there with Flynn.
COSTA: Exactly right. The sense with President Trump, the military is something to be admired. He knows a lot about the war stories for President George H.W. Bush. His friends, at least, tell me that has -- have a place in his head.
WILLIAMS: I want to show you one more thing. It`s kind of Joe Pescione (ph) dialogue, but this is Donald Trump on the notion of invoking your Fifth Amendment rights.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The people who destroyed the e-mails are all pleading the Fifth Amendment in front of Congress today.
You see mob tics takes of it. If you`re innocent, why are you taking in the Fifth Amendment?
(INAUDIBLE) took the Fifth Amendment, and her ring ladies were given immunity.
And if you`re not guilty of a crime, what do you need immunity for?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: So Robert, a couple points. Mr. Stone is in the news for invoking the Fifth, but as Senator Klobuchar pointed out tonight on "Hardball," this was an old request and not a subpoena from one committee in the Senate. It`s been theorized that maybe this made for a better message than actual legal statement of fact. And by the way documents can`t take the Fifth. He has said, "No documents, no testimony." What do you make of that?
COSTA: You see right now the Senate Intelligence Committee is continuing to move forward with its investigation. They`re going to continue to seek documents.
But on the President side, the element of a party made hangs over everything here. If you`re Roger Stone, if you`re Jerome Corsi, any kind of Trump confident who has dealt with the President, you`re looking to signal your loyalty to him. And Stone -- we covered Stone, they fought and fought throughout 2016, 2017, but now it`s like they`re brothers again because of the context of a situation.
WILLIAMS: Phil, you were going to say about brothers?
RUCKER: I mean, this is like classic Trump world, right? Where people come in, that they fall out and they come back in again. And it`s all based on what they`re doing in saying vis-a-vi Donald D. Trump.
WILLIAMS: Their numbers always remain in this advice.
RUCKER: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Always close by.
Our thanks to Phil Rucker, to Robert Costa, we greatly appreciate you both coming by tonight.
And coming up, select senators finally get that CIA briefing on the death of Khashoggi. Then one prominent Republican comes out and says, "There wasn`t so much of a smoking gun as there was a smoking saw." The story when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: I have zero question in my mind that the Crown Prince MBS ordered the killing, monitored the killing, knew exactly what was happening, planned it in advance. If he were in front of a jury, he would be convicted in 30 minutes.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: There`s not a smoking gun, there`s a smoking saw. You would have to be willfully blind not to come to the conclusion that this was orchestrated and organized by people under the command of MBS.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Frustrated Republican senators` moments after today`s briefing by the CIA Director Gina Haspel. The small bipartisan group was allowed to review classified evidence from the murder case of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
As they left the senator said today`s briefing makes them even more convinced that, as you heard, MBS, the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman`s involvement in this case. This puts them at odds with the Trump`s secretary of state, with Trump`s secretary of defense and with President Trump.
With us tonight to talk about all of it, A.B. Stoddard, veteran journalist, columnist and social editor at Real Clear Politics, Bill Kristol a veteran of the Reagan and Bush administration and Editor at Large of the weekly standard. Welcome both to you both.
A.B., does this equal an awakening of certain Republicans and if so, to what end?
A.B. STODDARD, ASSOCIATED EDITOR COLUMNIST, REAL CLEAR POLITICS: This is the question, Brian. They have never confronted President Trump the entire time he has been in office in this manner.
Yes, they passed Russia sanctions with Democrats last year, but they didn`t want to talk about it. This confrontational stance, this aggressive, angry stance coming particularly from Senator Lindsey Graham, of course, that he feels he`s been used and that President Trump needs to be someone special.
He needs to lead on this, that we need to protect our values as a nation, that he can`t be transactional when the President has made it perfectly clear that he looks to this through the president of transaction is really extraordinary.
I don`t know how convincing Senator Graham will be with the President. I know Senator Corker is retiring in a few weeks. It`ll be up to Senator Graham to lead this charge, to try to change the minds of President Trump, his son-in-law and those around him. But it`s really hard to see that influence actually changing the way President Trump sees these relationships.
WILLIAMS: Bill, this, of course, is the way. We hasten to add Republicans used to react to such things. They used to take high confidence from the CIA as gospel truth. But now if Trump`s lost Graham, what is the consequence of that?
BILL KRISTOL, EDITOR AT LARGE, THE WEEKLY STANDARD: Yes, and I think Corker as Senate Foreign Relation Chair that he`s retiring, but he`s bent over backwards to be helpful to the President, not to challenge him, I would say. I do think this is just in the last month since the election that we`ve discussing this before, when it keep waiting for two years for the Republicans on the hill to be less of a servant with Trump, to begin questioning Trump, to be less observant to Trump.
I do think we`ve seen it happening two or three different areas actually over the last month, a little bit.
WILLIAMS: Tim Scott, stop the federal judicial nomination.
KRISTOL: Right. And then another issue there`s been sort of more questions, more expressions of disappointment to the acting Attorney General Whitaker, I think more of a sense of gee, just Senate used to have the right to confirm people who are going to be attorney general of the United States, what`s going on there.
So we`ll where it goes. I mean, may be it just unique to this one case, the murder of Mr. Khashoggi, but I think it could be a broader sense beginning in January where they come back, of being one of the question, a bunch of policies in the Trump administration.
WILLIAMS: I want to show you both a clip, and that`s all this is, a clip of a longer speech given by Pompeo in Europe today. European audience talking about our place in the world and this President. We`ll talk about it on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Bad actors have exploited our lack of leadership for their own game. This is the poisoned fruit of American retreat. President Trump is determined to reverse that. Even our European friends sometimes say we`re not acting in the world`s interest. This is just plain wrong.
Our mission is to reassert our sovereignty reform to liberal national order, and we want our friends to help us and to exert their sovereignty as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Either of you want to hazard a guess as to what`s going on there?
KRISTOL: What was that, it seemed to be a combination of Trumpian words or phrases with some attempt and then reassure the Europeans that we do believe the international of both order.
I do think Pompeo particularly, you got where Trump crew (ph) to trust him. He didn`t know well. He made him the CIA Director on the recommendation, I think of a couple of other people. He was a congressman. And well regarded. First in his class from west point and so forth.
I know Mike Pompeo pretty well and think (INAUDIBLE), and Trump got to really like him when he came to do the briefings at the White House, I think Pompeo figure out a way to try to convey the intelligence. In an honest way but in the way the Trump liked digesting it.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
KRISTOL: So he makes him the secretary of state, when Tillerson gets fired. And Pompeo I think has spent an awful a lot of time not always to his advantage in the way he comes across. He tries to be fairly responsible secretary of state while catering to Trump.
And that is a very tough, secretary of state in particular has these demand on that job or not are really, would not push you to Trumpy direction. But he`s very attentive to keeping close to President Trump and not letting happened to him, what happen to Tillerson, what may have happened to Jim Mattis at defense.
The Trumpian being told by people in the White has gone native (ph). He`s part of the establishment. He`s not a Trump loyalist.
STODDARD: It was very pained, both the sort of Trumpian use of just -- basically just saying things that isn`t true. The sky is black, so he says, we`re not in retreat, we`re going to protect the liberal order. And bad actors fill the vacuum when Trump say, I`m really competing with the Russian and the Chinese for arms deal contracts.
And that`s why I`m going to stay friends with the Saudi`s. And so, he`s basically saying things that isn`t true to sort of wish it to be true. I think it is an effort as Mattis has done more quietly to reassure people around the world not only of our conviction and our intent but of their own credibility.
And so, it was very strange to see Mike Pompeo sort of -- I mean, I think Bill is right. He just conflicted and he has to do both things at once. But trying to sort of say things that the opposite of Trump`s foreign policy.
WILLIAMS: A lot that going on around here these days. I`m a happy visitor to you fair city, however, with thanks to both. Our returning veteran A.B. Stoddard and Bill Kristol as always.
Coming up, as this country prepares to say it`s final farewell. Look that, to our 41st President. A look the last impact of George H.W. Bush and his lengthy career of public service, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WILLIAMS: Here in Washington preparations are underway for tomorrow`s state funeral for late President George H.W. Bush. In the Capitol rotunda, it was another day of tribute where the public paid their last respects to the 41st President.
There was a surprising and lovely moment tonight, however, not surprising for those who know the Bush`s. When the whole family entered the rotunda led by the former President George W. Bush, then they just greeted the Americans who had come to pay their respects.
It was casual, it was personal. They saw some old friends in the crowd. The former President met at least one baby. Mostly they wanted to thank all the people in the rotunda who had been in line all day for coming to pay tribute to their dad.
Earlier today current and former CIA Directors visited their predecessor as Bush, of course, served as CIA Director himself in the mid-`70s. Colin Powell saluted the casket flanked by his Desert Storm military commanders, including our friend, the retired General Barry McCaffery among them.
And Sully, the service dog, arrived on Capitol Hill along with people who have benefited from The Americans with Disabilities Act that Bush signed back in 1990.
With me in Washington tonight, Susan Page, Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today, also happens to be the author of "The Matriarch: Barbara Bush and the Making of an American Dynasty".
And Michael Beschloss NBC News Presidential Historian who`s book include, this one, about the Bush 41 presidency, "At the Highest Levels: The Inside Story of the End of the Cold War." And the most recently his new book "Presidents of War" 41 is in both of your works.
Susan, you were the last journalist non-historian but working grinding out journalist to interview. It turns out both Barbara and George. What was that experience like? Of course, not knowing there wouldn`t be any more interviews?
SUSAN PAGE, AUTHOR "THE MATRIARCH ": It was a great privilege. It`s one of the privileges of being a reporter that you get to see big events like the ones we`re seeing unfolding in the Capitol this week, and you get to interview interesting people who play an important role in our lives.
And it was -- for Mrs. Bush, when I talked to her for the final time in February, it was clear that she was ready to go. She was -- her quality of life had deteriorated, she wasn`t afraid of death, she was ready to let go.
But when I interviewed President Bush for the final time, which was about a year ago in November of 2017, he was not ready to go. He wanted to go out and have dinner. He wanted to see his friends, he wanted -- even after Mrs. Bush died, he wanted to spend one more summer in Kennebunkport --
WILLIAMS: Which he got to do.
PAGE: -- which he did.
WILLIAMS: And he brought along his new friend of six months, Sully, his service dog. It`s just been part of the gripping imagery when that dog arrived today.
Michael, you said, "This is week as proven how history is supposed to work." What do you mean by that?
MICHAEL BESCHLOSS, NBC NEWS PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, the idea of history is that you have one view of a president at the time he leaves, and hopefully if history is operating the right way, 25 or 30 years later, you see him differently because you get access to documents like diaries.
George H.W. Bush kept wonderful diaries, for instance but more than that you have hindsight because 25 or 30 years, it siphons away the unimportant from the important. You see how the story turned out. In George H.W. Bush`s case, you hear people talking about his modesty and his decency, his ability to reach across the aisle.
Those are not things you heard when he was going out in 1993 in defeat. And you hear people say that he was absolutely indispensable in our winning the Cold War in the way we did. 1993, the three of us remember what people were saying more was, this is a loser, this is someone who was out of touch, couldn`t manage the economy.
And so history has really caused him to be seen as a very different figure.
WILLIAMS: We`re going to take a quick break. Both of our guests have agreed to stay with us.
And coming up more on 41`s legacy as his son prepares to eulogize his father. That`s coming up really just hours from now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WILLIAMS: Former President George W. Bush will eulogize his father during tomorrow`s state funeral at the National Cathedral.
And earlier today Savannah Guthrie had a chance to speak with both Bush daughters about his preparations for tomorrow`s remarks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, NBC NEWS: He`s writing the eulogy.
BARBARA BUSH, GRANDDAUGHTER OF GEORGE H.W. BUSH: Giving the eulogy.
JENNA BUSH HAGER, GRANDDAUGHTER OF GEORGE H.W. BUSH: Of course, Barbara and I, we never hold our opinions. We`re like, that`s great, but could you add a line like this? Take this out.
GUTHRIE: You`re a tough critic.
J. BUSH: How can you tell a man as giant as our grandpa was how much you love him? At the tall order. And I think it`s going to be difficult. I think there`s a lot of pressure for him to get it just right.
B. BUSH: And I think he also wants to make sure that he can get through it himself without -- he loss his father and he`s also devastated. So, to be able to get through the eulogy without breaking down is something else he`s working on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Susan Page and Michael Beschloss remain with us. Until Barbara made that point right there, I think it was lost on me. Yes, he`s a very emotional guy preparing to give a eulogy. It`s for his father.
It`s not just an address that is in effect on national television.
BESCHLOSS: Right.
WILLIAMS: It`s for, it`s because of the death of his father and the North Star. How on earth does he prepare for something like that?
BESCHLOSS: Really hard. And this famously closed family. Something that`s always brought me George H.W. Bush was asked decades ago, what was he proudest of? And he said the fact that my children still want to come home to be with us.
WILLIAMS: Yes. That`s pretty amazing. And Susan, unmistakably tomorrow in that National Cathedral is the first time since inauguration Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump have been in the same space. Add to that, Barack Obama, at all, five presidents in all and spouses. Care to predict what kind of environment that will be like?
PAGE: I think there`s an understanding among all of the parties, of course, President Trump will not be speaking and that the eulogist for President Bush will not be making point to seem directed at President Trump.
But in a way they don`t need to say a word. Because the contrast between the 45th President and the 41st, let say in particular is pretty stark. You just think about last week, the President Trump Tweeted a picture that showed two of those former presidents behind bars.
So not a point lost, I assume on any of them.
WILLIAMS: Sometimes we get beyond the North Star for what is normal and we forget a little bit that that is not yet normal in American history.
So Michael, do you think it was the last official act of 41 to invite 45, by way of saying this is how we do it?
BESCHLOSS: No. I think that`s exactly what he was doing. As you know, Brian, these funeral preparations, they begin when a President is still president. They keep on revising. You can be sure that the last revisions were made by President Bush 41 probably within the last couple of weeks. And isn`t that exactly the message he would have wanted to be sending?
WILLIAMS: And Susan, his family, most presidents object to this ghoulish process that results in a thick binder of minute-by-minute plans. As they get older and they realize this is their one shot to how they like to be remembered, some of them start to participate in the planning.
PAGE: Yes, they started to plan it like months after assume the presidency. And that`s a shock I think to president who expect to live forever.
But I think that the invitation that President Bush approved to President Trump reflected his respect for the office, his feeling that there`s a respect for the office that transcends whatever your point of view is about the individual who occupies it, at that moment.
WILLIAMS: And we`ll be talking about him tomorrow, but President Carter who appears to be well on his way to living forever will be among the five with his wife Rosalynn in the National Cathedral tomorrow.
Our great thanks to our friend Susan Page and Michael Beschloss. And we wanted to let you all know we will be here live for all of it tomorrow morning. I`ll will join by Nicolle Wallace and Chris Matthews and a number of other guests that experts who knew the former president well.
Our coverage begins at the ripe hour of 9:00 a.m., not far from here in the northwest corner of the city, at the National Cathedral, that last hosted the service for Senator John McCain. Tomorrow again, five U.S. presidents will be there for the farewell to our 41st. 9:00 eastern time, on this very network.
We look at the live picture of the military guard around the casket.
When we come back tonight, the moment that stopped everyone in this city today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WILLIAMS: Last thing before we go here tonight, is a tale of two very different men with some critical things in common. One of them was raised in depression era Kansas. The other was chauffeured to and from Greenwich Country day school as a child.
Both men served their country with distinction and great bravery in World War II. Both were very lucky to come home alive as decorated veterans and both men then pursued a career in politics.
Today, Bob Dole came to say good-bye to his friend, George Bush. They ran hard against each other more than once. They were competitors but both Republicans. Both patriots, who knew when to put politics aside.
Dole became a force in the Senate, eventually as majority leader. Bush got the brass ring, though, of the presidency. Bob Dole is now 95. A German shell robbed him of the use of his right arm after the war.
So, today, after some help standing up, he saluted his friend and fellow warrior with his left hand.
And make no mistake, it was because of guys named Bob from Kansas and guys named George from Connecticut that we prevailed in World War II. They all came home and built a better life for all of us. Now, their ranks are thinning and the time has come to say their farewells.
That is our broadcast for tonight. Thank you so very much for being here with us. And good night from our NBC News Washington bureau. We`ll be back on the air from this city for our funeral coverage in the morning.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END
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