Show: THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER Date: December 21, 2018 Guest: Garrett Haake; Jason Johnson; Howard Fineman; Maya Wiley; Wesley Clark; Corie Whalen; Chuck Nice, Barbara McQuade, Jesselyn Radack, Steve Stoute, Ryan Costello
CHUCK TODD, MSNBC: That`s all we have for MTP DAILY tonight. Remember, if it`s Sunday, it`s "MEET THE PRESS" on NBC. I`ll be speaking exclusively to Senators Dick Durbin and Pat Toomey.
Breaking news though coverage continues right now. "THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER". All right, Ari. I got the announcement of an announcement of a deal to have a deal to create the process to create a process for the deal. So maybe you can figure out another version of this.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: I don`t know if I could figure it out but I think you`re on the right path of the narration of it which is a lot of complication for what still looks like are you keeping it open or not? We`ve got a lot tonight. And what do you -- what is your tip for how to understand what`s real as the night goes on and the shutdown looms?
TODD: I guess the question is, how does the president cave without looking like he`s caving?
MELBER: Right. That`s a fair question.
TODD: Apparently, that`s what they are trying to -- no, that`s the deal they`re trying to design. Can you create a deal to make them feel like he didn`t look like he caved to Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh?
MELBER: Yes. Chuck Todd, we`ll be watching. Thank you as always.
TODD: Thank you.
MELBER: Right now, as I mentioned, the continuing coverage on THE BEAT. We have the Senate floor live. The talks are underway. The idea is to avert a government shutdown that whatever you think of this president, this is now real as we are within six hours of a shutdown tonight that affects Americans and the world. The government will, if nothing else happens, this is one way to say it, shut down at midnight.
Now, earlier today, President Trump said this would now be, guess what, "he argues a Democratic shutdown". That contradicts not only a lot of what independent experts says, it also happens to contradict the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will be the one to shut it down. I`m not going to blame you for it. The last time you shut it down, it didn`t work. I will take the mantle of shutting it down.
It`s totally up to the Democrats as to whether or not we have a shutdown. It`s up to the Democrats. So it`s really the Democrat shutdown.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That`s the contrast. The earlier comments only just last week. It`s haunting not only President Trump. It`s haunting the entire Republican party which could own this so-called Trump shutdown, his words.
Now, here`s the latest. Moments ago we had leaders of both parties trying to cut this deal and speaking on the Senate floor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Democrats have offered three proposals to keep the government open, including a proposal offered by Leader McConnell that passed the Senate unanimously only a few days ago. We are willing to continue discussions on those proposals with the leader, the president, the speaker of the house, and the leader of the house. All five are necessary to get something done.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-WA), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: I move to concur the House amendment to the Senate amendment to the House Amendment to the Senate Amendment to HR695.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: If you heard of stacks on stacks on stacks, those are amendments on amendments on amendments. And you`re looking at a panel of truly qualified experts to deal with what`s going on in America tonight. It`s a big night. And I`m going to go to this panel in one moment.
But first, I grant 60 seconds of the latest live reporting to a man who has been very busy, my colleague and friend, NBC`s Garrett Haake live on the Hill. Garrett, the latest?
GARRETT HAAKE, CORRESPONDENT, NBC NEWS: Here`s what we know, Ari. What we know right now is that there are not 50 votes in the United States Senate for the president`s wall or for the deal that was struck in the House to get $5 billion and kick things back over to the other side. What we saw here was a tied vote on this parliamentary vote, this procedural vote here. The tie broken by the vice president.
And what you now know is we`ve got a situation where there`s a deal to make a deal. We`re back where we started a week ago. But the decks are cleared in the Senate. There won`t be another test vote. There won`t be another procedural vote. There won`t be judges brought up. There will be nothing else discussed or debated in the U.S. Senate except how to keep the government open.
All of that said, we are also back where we started this morning which is Republican leaders do not have a plan. The Republicans who control both Houses of Congress, at least until January and the White House knew that this vote was probably going to fail but there`s no agreement on what the next steps could or should be.
We may go back to where we were even two weeks ago talking about bills that would include $1.6 billion for border security but not a wall. Maybe that is the way out for the president on this. But right now, we`re six hours from a shutdown and there`s no one plan that can get through both Houses and get signed by the president.
MELBER: Garrett, this is not goodbye but more like good luck because I trust, we at MSNBC, are checking with you throughout the hour and tonight. Thank you for that. That is the very latest.
So now we know the score, I want to bring in Jason Johnson of "Theroot.com", Attorney Maya Wiley, Howard Fineman, a Washington expert and NBC analyst, and General Wesley Clark, a former NATO Supreme Allied commander who knows Washington and also understands a lot of the foreign policy crises that are a backdrop for a White House in chaos.
Jason, there`s plenty of blame to go around Washington. But I ask you for your considered judgment as we begin the hour tonight. Are we witnessing the failure of the Congress or the failure of the president tonight?
JASON JOHNSON, POLITICS EDITOR, THEROOT.COM: We`re witnessing the failure of both, Ari. I mean one, the president does not know how to negotiate in good faith. He stabbed Mitch McConnell in the back. He stabbed his own party in the back.
But this is an example of the sort of consistent failed leadership of Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan. This is a perfect way for Paul Ryan to end his career in Congress. Despite running both Houses in the White House, they couldn`t get the most basic promise that they made to their constituents done which is get money for the wall. Forget get money from Mexico for the wall, they couldn`t even get the wall paid for themselves.
And now they face a situation where Democrats can objectively say to themselves they were never really going to vote for this outside of DACA. But now, we just had a midterm election where Republicans tried to scare people into wanting the wall by talking about a caravan for six weeks and still lost Congressional seats in border states. Democrats have no reason to negotiate and the Republicans don`t seem to have any plan on how to deal with not having power in six weeks.
MELBER: And then put that context, Howard against what this is doing to the American economy. The stock market is complex. It`s never moved by one thing. But look at this, this would be the top story otherwise. This is the worst week, this Trump chaos week since the financial crisis 10 years ago. And you have the federal government heading towards more chaos and instability tonight which cannot help.
HOWARD FINEMAN, ANALYST, NBC NEWS: Well, I think probably if you want to look at it through the lens of the markets and investors, there are of two minds. For a long time, they ignored, shall we say the idiosyncrasies of Donald Trump because they like tax cuts and they like deregulation, et cetera, et cetera. But now they`re coming up against the fact that Donald Trump may be uniquely unsuited as a character, as a negotiator to be president of the United States.
I mean he brings his experience, such as it was in The Art of the Deal. And if you read The Art of the Deal, what you`re supposed to do if you`re Donald Trump is get up and walk away. Threaten to blow everything up every minute. So what that`s done is taken an all already messed up situation in Washington. We have had shutdowns now for years and turbocharged it with a guy who doesn`t know how to negotiate politically. He doesn`t know how to negotiate with his own party. He does not negotiate with the other party. He`s all for getting up and leaving the table.
The problem is when you`re president of the United States, you can`t get up and leave the table. You`ve got to help run the government. And that`s what he`s not doing now.
MELBER: Maya, I turn to you for a wider ambit here. We`ve covered a lot of aspects of this particular historical moment. This is a week where we saw Mike Flynn in court get chewed out and asked if he was treasonous. Roger Stone`s testimony in the Congress handed over to Mueller which obviously has the looks of being a target if not about to be indicted. Tremendous pressure on Donald Trump as he shakes up the DOJ and tries to have a new attorney general who we learned just last night was privately advising him, not how to run the DOJ but how to run Mueller out of town legally.
And that comes with all of this pressure. And so how much of this do you think is also Donald Trump dealing with a government that for all of his attempts at control and what some critics have called authoritarian style, potentially illegal control, is more out of his control than ever and the Democrats haven`t even taken charge which they will next month.
MAYA WILEY, FORMER COUNSEL TO THE MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: Well, it is interesting timing because there`s so much chaos on so many fronts, as you`ve pointed out, Ari. And remember that Donald Trump seemed to be favorable to the deal that Mitch McConnell was crafting that did not have money for the border wall. And then when all the things had happened that you`ve described happened, he also then suddenly said, "$5 billion for my wall or bust and I`m willing to shut down the government and I`ll blame you, Democrats."
So it`s a nice distraction. I think that what we really have to focus on here, and I just want people to understand, 75 percent of the government will still be functioning. If there`s a shutdown, it`s about 25 percent. And the Mueller probe is actually permanently funded. So this does not impact the Mueller probe itself. In fact, even though DOJ will be impacted if there`s a shutdown, it will not impact many of the functions of the Department of Justice.
So there is a lot that still will be happening which also makes it harder for folks to come to the table and debate. But I think it is a very handy distraction.
MELBER: Right. And so -- and that goes to something we often cover here which is not being pulled aside by some of these issues. I mentioned General Wesley Clark is here. And I want to ask him for his views next. But let`s take a moment now that we`ve done the breaking news from the Hill and look at the larger picture on what has been a truly historic and in many ways difficult week for the country.
This could feel to many people like the cliffhanger finale of Season 2 of this Trump presidency but the stakes are, of course, higher than any narrative. So let`s go through it.
Lawmakers trying to avoid this Trump inflicted shutdown. America`s military reeling after the resignation of defense secretary who laid out in public his concerns about China and Russia. Thousands of U.S. troops now ordered by tweet effectively to leave the battlefield which concerns many military leaders and our allies. Adversaries like Vladimir Putin look gleeful at what is obviously a military power vacuum in places where he`s projected force like Syria.
And back home, new reports Trump already turning on his brand new chief of staff. Stocks on track as I just mentioned for the worse December since 1931. That was the great depression. The Mueller probe has all the controversy now that we know Trump`s acting attorney general has, according to "Washington Post" disregarded the ethics advise that he should recuse himself. And the Supreme Court ruling against Trump on immigrants seeking asylum while Justice Ginsburg got surgery today. And then privately, amidst all of this, Donald Trump reportedly in a "tailspin".
That is where we are on what is, yes, literally the shortest, perhaps darkest day of the year. With all of that as a backdrop, General Clark, your job for much of your time in public service was to be that kind of individual to presidents regardless of the party and regardless of the ideology where you would be an honest broker and you would also carry out their orders to the best of your ability within your law and ethical duties. How do you view this week, obviously, including the foreign policy issues that are now at the fore?
WESLEY CLARK, FORMER NATO SUPRE ALLIED COMMANDER: Well, I think we should all be sorry to see Jim Mattis leave as the secretary of defense. He`s an honorable man. He did the right thing. There`s so much difference between his views and the president`s views and the president does listen to his views apparently. And the president has undercut him so he can`t deal with allies.
So Secretary Mattis did the right thing, he left. He`s exactly right. The president, he deserves to have someone who shares his views. The problem is what are his views and why. There`s no strategic logic to this business of pulling troops out, to undercutting our allies and cozying up to our adversaries. No strategic logic to it.
MELBER: Well, let`s build on that. Let me give you a follow-up question because you just put your finger on it, General. What are his views and what is the foundation, the factual, military strategic predicate tor those views? Because there are a lot of people who, by the way, are in the so- called resistance. They don`t like Trump who also are fairly receptive to responsible ways to drawing down troops from certain fields of battle. You`ve talked about that.
It seems where you and Mattis may be concerned about the president is now whether he leans in that direction or not but the fact that he seems to be leaning back and forth and making policy by Twitter without the underlying facts.
CLARK: Well, not only facts but there`s no logic to it. So for 70 years, America`s security has been maintained by having strong alliances. We know that that`s what Mattis might call a force multiplier. It`s what lets our economic, and diplomatic, and legal, and military efforts have an impact around the world that help us win the Cold War, kept us mostly safe afterwards. It`s what makes America a great powerful country. It`s not the 330 million Americans. It`s not even the men and women in uniform. It`s American values and our relationships.
Why is the president so against this? I got it. In a bar in Queens, you can always have a couple of drinks and find somebody says, "Yes, they`re taking advantage of us." And you say, yes, we ought to pull out, screw them. But that`s not what a president should do. What`s the strategic logic of this? And there isn`t any. That`s why --
MELBER: What do you have against Queens, General?
FINEMAN: He`s right.
MELBER: Howard, go ahead. General, I want to get your response. In the good name of the people of Queens, I want to get your response.
CLARK: I love Queens. My wife is from Brooklyn. And so -- and President Trump is from Queens. I was trying to put it in terms he might get. Maybe that`s what helps him learn his foreign policy. This is the way people talk and people get their feelings out. But it`s not the way great nations make decisions. That`s the difference.
MELBER: And Howard, I want to bring you in on that point. This is where the serious meets with the absurd. And I want you to speak to both. The serious is where everything the general just said about the logical process. The absurd is, Howard, we all cover it as reporters the fact that Mick Mulvaney, we might remember from the time when we did our homework and checked it, I`m going to put it up on the screen that he called Trump a terrible human being.
Now, Trump turns on him with that information that was readily available and says, "Did you know he called me a terrible human being during the campaign?" Howard, his approach to his own chief of staff appears to echo his approach to pulling troops out which is do it first and watch TV after.
FINEMAN: Well, first of all, it shows that he really doesn`t care who his chief of staff is because he didn`t bother to check the guy out before he said, hey, you go ahead and be acting chief of staff. But I think what`s Clark --
MELBER: Or you be acting wild, either way. Go ahead.
FINEMAN: Yes. All right. Wes Clark has put his finger on something here because you described me very generously as a Washington expert. But in order to understand Donald Trump and his approach to the world, I rely on my time as a student in New York and living in New York. And what I will say is I think Donald Trump views the world as an array of mob families where he`s the kingpin of one mob.
And he`s got to get to know for self-defense if for no other reason or to approach and get inside the bubble of the other mob leaders around the world. And those would be Putin and Erdogan and Xi and all the other dictators that he seems to feel simpatico with because it`s one mob boss talking to another.
Forget the government, forget the United Nations, forget the law, forget everything else. It`s an extremely crude and jungle-like view of the world as seen through the eyes of mob families. That`s how Donald Trump operates and that is his worldview. If there is a Trump doctrine, it comes from Queens and Brooklyn and from New York and from the mob families that control that city.
MELBER: Yes. And I think it`s an important point you contribute. I would only echo it by saying it comes from the movie depiction of how those things work --
FINEMAN: Yes.
MELBER: -- and not always the reality.
FINEMAN: Well, he dealt -- I think he dealt with -- look, if you`re going to be in real estate in New York, if you`re going to be in business in New York, if the regular banks are going to shut you out and not have anything to do with you, you have to get your money from somewhere and that can be Russia. That can be somewhere in Istanbul. That can be from somewhere in Queens.
MELBER: I feel you on that. Jason, then you have the other side of this story which is Trump could do what he wants but we are witnessing the beginning of a Pelosi Washington. And it is running differently than the way it was under Paul Ryan. Here is Nancy Pelosi standing up to Donald Trump, setting the predicate for what we see tonight which is obviously a bigger problem politically, as well for the country, but a problem for Trump and the Republicans. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), MINORITY LEADER: The president is doing everything that he can to shut the government down. Have to ask the question, why? Does he not believe in governance? Does he not care about the American people? Doesn`t he know that the economy is uncertain? Hasn`t he followed the stock market that he likes to brag about?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Jason.
JOHNSON: Look, that was a surgical takedown, right. I mean Nancy Pelosi has been waiting to do this from a position of power for years. But here is the other thing that is really problematic about Trump. The supposed brilliant negotiate even though no one in their right mind really believes that. I mean he`s like a bad supervillain who tells bond what the plan is beforehand.
When you do a press conference, last week with Chuck and Nancy, and you say I`m going to tear everything down, I want a government shutdown, everybody knows what your plan is. Everybody knows where the secret files are. So his negotiating is so poor, whether it`s public and whether it`s international.
And I`ll also say this, as much as he may consider himself to be a mobster or a gangster, he`s basically a halfway crook because he doesn`t know what he`s doing. And he told us we were going to go to Syria and all of our soldiers will bring our oil back. I don`t see where that oil is. So even if you believe that it was a good idea to go in initially because it was going to lower gas prices, he`s failed in that as well.
MELBER: I got to fit in a break because we have so much breaking news going on in the Hill. I just want to give some serious credit here to Jason Johnson with the mob deep, Howard Fineman with the Godfather, General Clark with Queens be coming to America, and Maya Wiley just for being Maya Wiley. We`re going to fit in a break. Thanks to each of you on a busy Friday.
Democrats up ahead. They are now demanding recusal as they take power over the acting A.G., ignoring those calls to step aside from overseeing Mueller.
Also, Trump shutdown. Well, you all know it came from "Fox News" and Rush Limbaugh. What`s the latest on that if they`re going to run the government?
And later tonight, I have a BEAT special report on Trump`s hypocrisy on undocumented immigrants and this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RYAN COSTELLO (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I`ve never seen somebody more scared of their base than the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That`s Congressman Ryan Costello and music mogul Steve Stoute tonight for a special Fallback Friday. I`m telling you we`ve got a lot more.
I`m Ari Melber. You`re watching THE BEAT on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: It is a busy day in Washington and we are now under six hours away from what will be a government shutdown unless there`s intervention. How did we get here? Well, a key part of this story that we want you to understand, we want America to understand, is that Donald Trump got scared. He got shook because of the right-wing media talking to him and his base. And now, it`s happening again but on Syria.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN KILMEADE, CO-HOST, FOX & FRIENDS: He said President Obama is the founder of ISIS. He just re-founded ISIS because we got 30,000 men there and they`re already striking back with our would-be evacuation. The president`s got to -- he`s really on the griddle with this.
SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Bryan, I have to respectfully disagree with you. The idea that the president has had anything to do with helping ISIS re-emerge is absolutely outrageous.
KILMEADE: Leaving is helping. Leaving is helping.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: You`re not watching democracy now there. You`re watching a "Fox News" host that the president obviously watches telling the president you re-founded ISIS. It was this fear though from the right-wing media base that we saw force Trump into this whole mess that is now just under six hours away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE DOOCY, CO-HOST, FOX & FRIENDS: He loses and the Democrats will win everything they wanted.
AINSLEY EARHARDT, CO-HOST, FOX & FRIENDS: So some are wondering, is this is a win for Nancy Pelosi --
DOOCY: Yes.
EARHARDT: -- and Chuck Schumer.
ANN COULTER, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Trump will -- it will just have been a joke presidency that scammed the American people.
RUSH LIMBAUGH, HOST, THE RUSH LIMBAUGH SHOW: Trump gets nothing and the Democrats get everything, including control of the House.
LAURA INGRAHAM, HOST, THE INGRAHAM ANGLE: I think the not funding the wall is going to go down as one of the worst, worst things to have happened to this administration. Forget Mueller. The wall, the wall, the wall has to be built.
KILMEADE: I just don`t know where the president`s leverage is on this.
LIMBAUGH: Looks like a lot of people`s worst fears may be realized and that the president is getting ready to cave on getting any money from a wall in the current budget.
KILMEADE: And if there`s not a shutdown, he`s going to look like a loser.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: I`m joined now by Corie Whalen, former communications director for Republican Congressman Justin Amash. He recently resigned expressing some discontent with the Republican Party. She writes that to see wholesale political tribalism Trump any semblance of principle, decency, and sanity is disturbing. Also with me, a friend of THE BEAT, comic and social critic.
CHUCK NICE, COMEDIAN: Yes.
MELBER: Chuck Nice.
NICE: That happened yesterday.
MELBER: Corie, if we hit a shutdown tonight, will it be because of those people I just showed on the screen because they hurt Donald Trump`s feelings?
CORIE WHALEN, FORMER CAPITOL HILL COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: That`s quite possible. I remember an era when Republicans used to threaten to shut down the government because the government was spending too much money. And now we have them fighting over funding more money for a wall when we have $21 trillion in the national debt. And so I kind of miss that old iteration of the Republican Party which is sort of what I was getting at in my recent writing.
MELBER: I mean it`s interesting. And you`re one of the people that`s speaking out in the Trump era which is scrambling all kinds of alliances. We showed Rush Limbaugh who asserted that he was told this was a response to him by people around Trump. Here was Rush Limbaugh saying that if there is a shutdown here in the next five hours, it should be a cause for celebration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIMBAUGH: And here we have somebody elected to shake it all up and shake it all up is exactly what`s going on. This is exactly what it looks like. This is what pushing back against the Washington establishment looks like. It was never going to be pretty. It was never going to be clean. They ought to be celebrating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Do you agree with that? Is that what a conservative shakeup looks like?
WHALEN: Not to me. This is why it`s been increasingly difficult for me to really identify with this version of the Conservative movement. And that`s why I wrote that. Perhaps I was naive thinking that I had allies in, for example, fiscal discipline, constitutional restraint. We have actually seen very little of that.
And now to see all of the right-wing talking heads talking about this wall which quite frankly I don`t even think solves immigration problems. It`s just a different universe and I think Trump has corroded much of the progress the Conservative movement made prior to him.
MELBER: Chuck, what do you think of that and of Corie`s view that having seen the evidence and the facts, what everyone`s debate is overspending, Trump`s not, in her view, being even a conservative, let alone a responsible president?
NICE: I don`t think Trump has ever been a Conservative and we know he`s never been responsible for anything. But I think what you`re looking at right now is Trump as the low-level manager at the Gap, basically. Yes. He`s got his like area manager above him, that`s "Fox News", right? Then he`s got his regional manager, that`s Rush Limbaugh, right. And then he`s got the executive vice president in charge of retail operations and that`s Vladimir Putin.
And they all want different things. And he`s like, "What do I do? I don`t know what to do. What do I do?" And that`s what you`re seeing here. and "Fox News" is more of an agitator than they are if anything else. They are instigators. It`s not even about whether or not they`re not even Conservative. It`s about them putting forward their power and their agenda.
MELBER: All right. So if that`s your analogy, I`m going to roll with you.
NICE: Go ahead.
MELBER: And I`m going to say that the guests on "Fox" worked down the hall at the Orange Julius at the mall and they have even crazier ideas. So on the 15-minute break, they`re like, "Wait though, what about this though? Have you tried this?" And for that, let`s look at a recent clip of an alternative proposal from a "Fox" guest to fund the wall.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KILMEADE: Is there a private way to do this?
MICHAEL GOODWIN, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK POST: There is. You can create a go fund me operation. A lot of people are willing to chip in. One reader writes to me and says if the 63 million people who voted for Donald Trump each contributed $80, that would get you near the $5 billion mark. The public could fund the wall.
KILMEADE: Right. Like minor league baseball, buy some ads on it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NICE: Right he says. Yes, exactly. Hey, let`s have a red party, guys. Why won`t we have a red party? Like we could all get together. I`ll bring the chips. Everybody pays like eight million bucks a piece and we can fund the wall. How about that?
What is wrong with these people? Like this is -- here`s the problem. These are people who despise government who are now running the government.
MELBER: Right. Corie, we`re out of time. But real quick, do you know, can they use a go fund me to fund the wall?
WHALEN: I`m pretty sure that`s not feasible. And even if it were, talk about being duped. This is a bigger scam than Trump University. I mean wasn`t Mexico going to pay for the wall. It`s just silly.
MELBER: Well, that`s one of the questions. Corie Whalen, Chuck Nice, thank you both.
Trump`s acting A.G., meanwhile, another important story that we`re not going to be distracted from, ignoring the ethics advice. Democrats are now acting on it. I have a former DOJ ethics official on this story which could be the key to the Mueller probe exclusive when we`re back in 30 seconds.
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ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: New in the Mueller probe tonight. Democrats now saying they will take action on the threats to his independence promising to escalate -- escalate, I should say oversight when they come into the House. That`s of course next month. Acting A.G. Matt Whitaker, the man who is overseeing the Russia probe has now according to the post ignored the advice of ethics officials and cleared himself with his aides to supervise the Mueller probe.
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REP. JERRY NADLER (D), NEW YORK: Anybody that the President will appoint at this point I assume will be appointed for the purpose of shutting down or prejudicing that investigation.
SEN. MARK WARNER (D), VIRGINIA: This is a White House that feels like it`s under siege. This is a White House that is paranoid about the Mueller investigation.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: I think the country ought to know what the ethics lawyers have to say about this. But more than that, it underscores just how essential it`s going to be that every action that he takes that has any bearing on the Russia investigation is going to be exposed to the public.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: In a moment I`ll be joined exclusively by a former legal ethics adviser to the DOJ who worked exactly on these types of cases. Now, here`s the context. Whitaker refusing to recuse himself comes as Trumps new pick to be a permanent attorney general actually was revealed to have written a private memo basically disagreeing with Mueller`s approach to obstruction saying it was fatally misconceived.
Now, Democrats are basically saying, OK, if that`s your view. But then both of you may have to recuse themselves ethically from the entire oversight of Mueller. As mentioned, here is a former Federal Prosecutor and University Michigan Law School Professor Barbara McQuade and as promised Jesselyn Radack former DOJ ethics attorney. First of all, thanks to both of you for joining me on a busy Friday night.
BARBARA MCQUADE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Thank you.
JESSELYN RADACK, FORMER DOJ LEGAL ETHICS ADVISOR: Glad to be here, Ari.
MELBER: Great. Jesselyn, what does it mean when the DOJ reportedly did advise Whitaker to step aside and what happens now if he doesn`t?
RADACK: That would be extraordinary that he would not heed the advice of the ethics attorneys. To his credit he sought guidance which you should do when you`re the office is set up to give that guidance, but he really disregards that guidance at his own peril. Should he later face a judicial sanction or bar discipline or anything of the sort, the Justice Department will not defend him and will not help him out if he did not follow their guidance and especially if he floated their guidance.
MELBER: Right. And that`s interesting that view coming from you having done this work. Barbara, it`s perfectly fine for former law -- government officials, government lawyers to take public views and advocate for them. We recently have Ken Starr on and he took the argument that Dershowitz and others have said which is maybe you can fire all kinds of officials and it`s not obstruction. First, take a look at that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: What about firing an FBI director to interfere with a probe? Could that be an element of obstruction?
KEN STARR, FORMER SOLICITOR GENERAL, UNITED STATES: I don`t think so because he`s exercising his power.
MELBER: So that`s a no. What about -- I just want to get you on this. What about ordering the criminal prosecution of an FBI of a former FBI director.
STARR: I think that`s coming closer by still would say no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Fascinating that that would also be OK to Ken Starr, but Barbara I suppose the question for you is then at what point does someone validate or endorse enough things that are under investigation in the probe that they can`t any longer credibly run the probe?
MCQUADE: The rules of ethics and recusal at the Justice Department fall into two categories. One is what is called an actual conflict of interest and that means you`ve got a financial interest or a family relationship and you just can`t be objective in that situation and it`s an automatic recusal. There`s another area that`s more discretionary. And the standard there is whether a reasonable person would question your objectivity based on things that you`ve done or things that you have said. And that`s the category that Matt Whitaker finds himself in.
And although the ethics advisors have suggested no, you should recuse yourself in this situation, not be involved, he`s gone ahead and stayed in it. And the question there is, is the government interest in having you work on this greater than the conflict that you have here? And it doesn`t seem like anyone is really advocating on behalf of the government interest here when we`ve got Rod Rosenstein, a perfectly good person to step in and oversee this investigation who is already there.
The idea that you would then put in someone over him who has this apparent conflict really I think flies in the face of those regulations. MELBER: And Jesselyn, the big issue that`s coming down the road that we don`t know what Mueller is going to do, but we do know the rules which is there`s a report and whoever his boss is actually decides where that report goes which is generally a good thing because it means the prosecutor is not the only one involved in that decision and there`s layers of oversight.
The Democrats are now saying if all of this is Trump`s little ruse to try to get someone in there who`ll pocket the report, they have ways around it. Here was some interesting news broken on Rachel Maddow`s show last night. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NADLER: If Mueller should issue report and give it to the Attorney General, the Attorney General said he have give it to Congress or making a public decides to pocket it. We can subpoena it or we can simply invite Mueller and to come testify and ask in front of the committee what was the new report.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Do you see that as a -- as a fine alternative?
RADACK: Yes. I think there are a number of different alternatives on this. You know, I would say that at this point especially with this administration, everyone whether it`s Congress or the Department of Justice, everyone needs to try to go overboard in being ethically appropriate. And that means not just impartiality, that`s only part of it but avoiding the appearance of impropriety. So I think it`s in everyone`s interest in an abundance of caution in an administration that has been ethically challenged to try to turn square corners.
MELBER: Right. Well, both of you have so much experience in this. It`s fascinating here in the analysis. It also goes to yes, there`s a shutdown looming five hours away. But if that`s part of an effort to distract attorneys like yourself or the rest of the public from shutting down the Mueller probe, we`re going to stay on those stories as well. Barbara and Jesselyn, thanks to both of you.
MCQUADE: Thanks, Ari.
RADACK: Thank you.
MELBER: Up ahead, a special report on Donald Trump`s hypocrite -- hypocritical history heater. He`s threatening a shutdown over issues that he actually contributed to with undocumented hirings. And later, yes, it`s a long and packed news week. I have a very special "FALLBACK FRIDAY" with Republican Congressman Costello and Steve Stoute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Right now, tonight, America is on edge because the federal government may shut down because President Trump says he needs to be "stronger on immigration." But when you actually look at his own history throughout his entire career, there`s huge hypocrisy and that is our special report to dig it deeper as this may be what everyone`s talking about this weekend.
There`s actually new reporting that reveals Trump has a decade`s long history of hiring undocumented and foreign workers, that`s in opposition to his public rhetoric.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will build a great wall and we will put and end to illegal immigration.
We will buy American and we will hire American.
When American workers win, America as a country wins.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That`s Trump in recent years as a politician right through tonight. But his own business practices show something very different. You need to know this. Whatever you think about immigration, it goes all the way back to the 1980s with Trump Tower itself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We purchased a site with an old department store on -- at the old (INAUDIBLE) store on Fifth Avenue and 57th Street next to Tiffany and we had to really take the building down.
We`ve employed 5,000 construction workers. There`ll be many people employed and running the building. I think it`s a vital step for New York.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: OK. But who were those people with Trump never mentioned was the construction crew included 200 undocumented Polish immigrants which helped clear the whole lot for Trump Tower where he continues to live with his family today. Trump reportedly sought the undocumented crew out paying them half the Union wage. And one of the workers said "we worked in horrid terrible conditions, frightened illegal immigrants didn`t know enough about our rights."
And things got ugly over unpaid wages. Trump dragged into court over this even though he would testify that he said he didn`t know the workers were undocumented but he had to settle the case for over a million. Recent reports show that wasn`t Trump`s only run end with the undocumented immigrants that he now claims are worth shutting down the government over.
Two undocumented workers coming forward about their experience recently working at his Golf Club in New Jersey. NBC`s Kate Snow talked to one of them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE SNOW, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: How did you get the job without any documentation?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I told them that I don`t have papers, I don`t speak English, and that I was an immigrant. They said no, it doesn`t matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: It doesn`t matter. Another saying there are many people without papers. Now, when prompted about what made them want to come forward, risking deportation, they said it was really the way Donald Trump talks and governs and the harsh language he uses against all kinds of immigrants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: They`re bringing drugs, they`re bringing crime, they`re rapists.
These aren`t people, these are animals.
When you prosecute the parents for coming in illegally which should happen, you have to take the children away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: This is about tonight`s wall but it`s much broader. Consider the other contradiction with Trump always saying he`ll get jobs back to American workers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We will follow two simple rules, buy American and hire American.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: But businesses owned by Trump or bearing his name have actually hired over 500 foreign workers that says he launched his political campaign and they use visas for foreign workers which allow employers to hire them when they cannot find American ones. Now, some people think that`s a fine policy. Trump`s Mar-a-Lago requested permission to do it for 78 people in July. And just two weeks ago, Eric Trump`s own winery wanted another six. That`s the same winery where Trump held a campaign event saying Americans need to take back their jobs from guess who, foreigners.
Now, not only of Trump`s properties rely on this kind of visa program, they`ve actually expanded it. It was this March -- again, we`re about to have a government shutdown over this kind of thing but Congress included this in a spending bill that Trump`s homeland security secretary now gets the right to issue more of these kinds of visas and she did 15,000 more. And within three days of that announcement, guess what, we`ve got the reporting for you tonight. Donald Trump properties requesting another 76 foreign workers.
That may be good or bad. That`s debatable. But this is hypocrisy if you`re going to shut the government down over and it. And seems to be obviously different from what Trump promised after winning the election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: One of my first executive orders will be to ask the Department of Labor to investigate all visa abuses that undermine jobs and wages for the American worker. This is about our country now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That was before he was actually president. Tonight, he is President. Donald Trump demanding more money to build a wall that he claimed we`d never have to have paid for by the U.S. The history here suggests, if that wall was a Trump branded property, even if you got the money from Mexico, well I just showed you the evidence he`d probably still be using foreign workers to build it. We wanted you to know that as we head towards a shutdown in potentially five hours.
Now, that`s not all. We have something fun for you next. Who needs to fall back after this week? "FALLBACK Friday" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: It`s Friday on THE BEAT and you know what that means. It`s time to fall back. I am thrilled to tell you I`m joined by CEO Steve Stoute, a former record executive from several label to work with Will Smith, with Nas, with Mary J Blige. He`s also the author of a very interesting book. The Tanning of America: How Hip-Hop Created a Culture that Rewrote the Rules of the New Economy.
And I`m also joined by GOP Congressman Ryan Costello of Pennsylvania. You may know him as a critic sometimes of Trumps presidency. The New Yorker recently profiled him as that rare moderate left in Republican politics but he`s leaving Congress. Thanks to both of you for being here. Steve, who do you think needs to fall back.
STEVE STOUTE, FORMER RECORD LABEL EXECUTIVE: I think the record companies, traditional record companies to fall back. I think the days are over where record companies take advantage of artists by owning the names, their likeness, owning their I.P., it think their time model needs to fall back.
MELBER: Well, and you`ve been working on that. I mean. a lot of folks watching will be familiar with Chance the Rapper who`s involved in Chicago politics, whose father was involved in the Obama administration, who also - -
STOUTE: His is a great man.
MELBER: -- is a huge independent artists.
STOUTE: He`s a great man. His dad is great man. But I think what Chance did was he really was part of paving the way for artists to realize you don`t need to go to a record company anymore. And I started a company UnitedMasters just for that. To help independent artists, own their rights, and be able to prosper without going through a record company. And we announced recently a partnership with the NBA. And David Stern early on was very conservative about having rap music and be a part of -- being a part of what the NBA was all about. And a new Commissioner Adam Silva has been very welcome into allowing culture within the organization.
MELBER: But you know why that is, Congressman?
REP. RYAN COSTELLO (R), PENNSYLVANIA: No, why is that?
MELBER: People are scared of changed and they`re scared of rappers, and they make assumptions that don`t always turn out to be true at all.
COSTELLO: I think our generation though, and those younger than us, we -- I grew up with hip-hop culture, right? So I mean, I love this just as everyone else loves it and I you know, I see the world your way in terms of people have talent. The last thing you want is a barrier to that talent and people grabbing money and not allowing talent to prevail.
STOUTE: Prince. Prince, wrote slave on his face and that he change his name because of record companies.
COSTELLO: I like Prince and J. Prince. I got confused what --
MELBER: Jay-Z -- to your point, Jay-Z famously said on the new album about Prince. You think he wanted his masters owning his masters.
STOUTE: That`s -- indeed. And you should listen to Jay-Z`s new verse on Philly`s own Meek Mill someone called What`s Free because he explains he goes much deeper into it. Like you know, freedom is all about like being - - if you`re an artist, you should own your right. How does Prince not own Purple Rain? How does -- how does him not owning Illmatic? I mean --
MELBER: Which is we have George Clinton --
STOUTE: It doesn`t make any sense.
MELBER: We have George Clinton and Carole King on the show and George was talking about --
STOUTE: She has her own tapestry?
MELBER: She does, but he doesn`t because the things were very shady. You`re talking about Jay`s new verse on the -- on the Meek Mill. It is Pennsylvania, that`s up to your alley.
STOUTE: I tossed it to you.
COSTELLO: But that Illmatic album is so --
MELBER: You -- he hasn`t -- congressman, you don`t want to talk new rap. You want to talk old rap.
COSTELLO: I could but I love that old rap --
MELBER: Because to Steve`s point, in that verse Jay-Z uses a Constitutional History, the Three-Fifths Compromise to talk about ownership and then talk about the percentage stakes he has in his own companies.
STOUTE: When I first said it, you had look on your faces like I hadn`t hit a verse yet, you know the whole entire verse.
MELBER: Well it`s -- right. And it`s fascinating because he`s talking about what you do and you`ve work with Jay which is how do you own a piece of things? How do you build power in these communities? How do you build financial --
STOUTE: How do you own something. I mean, you get -- you pass something on your family. Like you can`t make the art and then like find out that it`s not yours. Congressman, honestly, in the back, you better hit him with a verse. Honestly, you just got too much lyrics. You got to hit him with something.
COSTELLO: I mean, there`s so much -- there`s so many places I could go but I`m just going to do a little Ice Cube. As we all move forward in life, you always got a number one, make sure you check yourself before you wreck yourself.
STOUTE: Before you wreck yourself.
MELBER: Before you wreck yourself. Yes. Was today a good day?
COSTELLO: Because that could be bad for your health.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: You got a Republican in blue.
STOUTE: Yes.
MELBER: We got you in the MAGA red. But I`m not going to assume what that means.
STOUTE: No, this is the holidays.
MELBER: Steve Stoute, Congressman Costello, thanks to both of you for a very special "FALLBACK FRIDAY" and we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: You can keep it locked on MSNBC as we continue to count down whether there will be a shutdown. I also want to tell you, you can check out some of our latest interview on that new series "MAVERICKS" with Ari Melber where we talked to Chloe Grace Moretz -- Chloe I should say -- SNL`s Chris Redd, and Transparent Creator Jill Soloway. We discussed how their work is changing potentially our culture.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHLOE GRACE MORETZ, ACTRESS: -- and identify within your insecurity, identify within your strangeness and wear that has a badge of honor, because that`s what makes you unique.
JILL SOLOWAY, CREATOR, TRANSPARENT: You have to be writing and creating, something that matches with our interior voice. That`s what art is I think.
CHRIS REDD, ACTOR: When you are going for your dream, the whole time, you`re like, am I -- am I dumb for this because it`s not working? It`s like, man, I was right this whole time. Everybody thought I was stupid wasting my time. I`m right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: He was right. You can catch all these interviews at msnbc.com/mavericks. That`s msnbc.com/mavericks and we`d love to hear what you think. One more note, earlier tonight when I was introducing the Congressman Justin Amash`s former aide, I said he resigned when I should have said she resigned. I regret the error. And that does it for our coverage. I`ll be back here 6:00 p.m. Eastern Monday. But don`t go anywhere, because if you`re following Washington, America, "HARDBALL" has got you covered on this shutdown showdown, and that`s next.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END