Show: HARDBALL Date: October 30, 2017 Guest: Michael Schmidt, Jennifer Rodgers, Renato Mariott; Frank Figliuzzi, Nan Hayworth
CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Russian interests.
Let`s play HARDBALL.
Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews up in New York on a day of historic developments in the Russian investigation.
First there was today`s indictment of Donald Trump`s presidential campaign manager, Paul Manafort, and Manafort`s long-time associate, Rick Gates. The 12 counts against them include conspiracy against the United States, money laundering and failure to report foreign bank accounts. This afternoon, both men stood in a Washington courtroom and pled not guilty to all counts.
According to the indictment from special counsel Robert Mueller, quote, "in order to hide Ukraine payments from the United States authorities over the period of 10 years, Manafort and Gates laundered the money through scores of United States and foreign corporations, partnerships and bank accounts."
The charges don`t mention the Trump campaign or Russian meddling in the election, something his lawyer emphasized this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN DOWNING, MANAFORT ATTORNEY: Well, I think you all saw today that President Donald Trump was correct. There is no evidence that Mr. Manafort or the Trump campaign colluded with the Russian government. Mr. Manafort represented pro-European Union campaigns for the Ukrainian, and in that, he was seeking to further democracy and to help the Ukraine come closer to the United States and the EU. Those activities ended in 2014, over two years before Mr. Manafort served in the Trump campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Meanwhile, in what might be a far more significant development today, news broke that a former Trump adviser pled guilty three weeks ago to lying to federal officials about his contacts with individuals linked to the Kremlin. George Papadopoulos was arrested back in July. His guilty plea indicates he is cooperating with the Mueller probe.
The court documents unsealed today lay out contacts between Papadopoulos and two individuals with connections to Russian government officials. In the spring of 2016, one of them, described as a professor, told Papadopoulos that the Russians possessed dirt on Hillary Clinton in the form of thousands of e-mails. The document also lays out communications between Papadopoulos and unnamed Trump campaign officials who encouraged him on.
In August of last year, there was a discussion of potential off-the-record meeting with Russian officials. According to the document, a campaign supervisor told Papadopoulos, I would encourage you and another foreign policy adviser to the campaign to, quote, "make the trip, if it is feasible." Well, Yahoo News is reporting that that supervisor is Sam Clovis, the co-chair of the campaign.
For more on everything that we learned today, I`m joined by MSNBC News justice correspondent Pete Williams. Pete, in order of importance, the two actions that we learned about today, is it about Manafort or about Papadopoulos?
PETE WILLIAMS, NBC JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Papadopoulos by far, for two reasons. Number one, it`s more directly connected to the campaign. And secondly, we know -- as you suggested, we know that Papadopoulos is cooperating with Robert Mueller`s prosecutors because the court documents explicitly say that after he was arrested in July, he has been repeatedly questioned by them and has been answering their questions.
And we also know it because it seems like they`re willing to cut him a deal in return for his guilty plea. He`s charged with lying to federal agents, and the government says they would recommend a sentence, basically, of zero to six months which means basically that they`d be willing to let him out on probation.
But I think it`s important to point out that the only criminal allegation, the only thing he`s pleaded guilty to that`s illegal was lying to the FBI when he said when he had all these contacts with the Russians, he was not working for the campaign. That turns out not to be true. The other things that the guilty plea talks about, these meetings with the Russians trying to set up a meeting, that`s of course not illegal.
MATTHEWS: When you look at the pattern, what do you see in terms of the dynamic here? Are they using the charges against Paul Manafort and his associate Rick Gates to pressure him with huge penalties in terms of prison time? Are they using George Papadopoulos to try to provide information? Because it seems to me the supervisor that`s referenced here may well be Manafort, and that this is all about responding to a Russian overture where the Russians offer information on Hillary Clinton. And there`s some kind of response by the Trump team. And we`re going to have to find out what that response was to see if there was collusion.
WILLIAMS: Well, it`s clearly his role in the campaign that interests them. You would certainly think that the prosecutors are going to use these charges against Manafort and Gates that are very serious and could carry sentences of many years in prison to try to get their cooperation.
You`d also assume, Chris, that the prosecutors have already tried to get their cooperation, just like the deal they cut with Papadopoulos. Whether that`s going to happen or whether they`re going tough it out, we just don`t know yet.
MATTHEWS: So one guy is facing huge numbers of years and one guy is facing zero to six months. One guy is cooperating.
WILLIAMS: Exactly.
MATTHEWS: Thank you so much. You see through these things so well.
WILLIAMS: You bet.
MATTHEWS: NBC News justice correspondent Pete Williams.
I`m joined right now by "The New York Times`s" Michael Schmidt, former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti and former Assistant U.S. attorney for the southern district of New York, Jennifer Rodgers.
In order, Michael first. What do you see here because I -- when you read through the tea leaves -- not the tea leaves, through the evidence, you`re getting a sense that the Russians through Papadopoulos, a guy who`s not even in the picture for many of us for a while here at all -- you get the sense they were sending the word that they`ve got some stuff on Hillary Clinton, some e-mails, or they want somebody to come over to Russia and pick them up. They want an overture from the Trump campaign as they were doing very well in May of last year. They looked like the nominees, of course then, pretty clearly.
They wanted them to show some sort of back and forth. We`re willing to play ball with you. And it`s not clear how or if they did play ball. Your notion of it now as a reporter. Michael?
MICHAEL SCHMIDT, "NEW YORK TIMES": Well, this is now the third time that we`ve seen the Trump campaign going after so-called Russian "dirt" about Hillary Clinton. It shows sort of a determined effort. And in the case of Papadopoulos, as you were pointing out, it shows that campaign officials above him knew what he was doing. He was not a rogue element here. They were abreast of these communications, and that`s significant.
And today would have been a bad day for Donald Trump if it had just been Manafort and Gates. But this really sort of takes the story to the next level and raises these questions about why were there so many contacts and why were they trying so hard to get this "dirt" from the Russians.
MATTHEWS: As a news man, a news person, let me ask you about this story. For days now, Huckabee Sanders has been putting out the word this thing`s about to be snuffed. This is reaching its last legs. How`s that look today, that claim?
SCHMIDT: Well, it doesn`t appear to be that accurate. If anything, I think we`re maybe in the third or the fourth inning.
Look, there is -- it looks like Mueller is building a case here. He`s trying to put pressure on folks. He`s trying to do these -- you know, to move forward with his own investigation. I think she may be thinking that the interviews of White House officials may be wrapping up and that Mueller wants to get them done by Thanksgiving. But the idea that we`re coming to the end of this I think is wrong. And I think the facts continue to bear that out.
MATTHEWS: Renato, give you a sense -- give your sense as a prosecutor of how it looks like Mueller is proceeding. Now, I noticed here he`s going with Papadopoulos, who`s the first example back in May of last year, May of 2016 -- the first evidence we have of an overture from the Russians that they want to provide some dirt on Hillary Clinton, and the first evidence that perhaps, and more than perhaps, the Russia team -- the Trump team is responding. They want to go back and meet. They`re suggesting who should go pick up the documents. It does have sort of a crime scene atmosphere to it, a dealing that`s taking place here.
Renato, give us a sense of what you think the prosecutors are up to.
RENATO MARIOTTI, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, sure. What I think, Chris, is that they -- you know, it`s clear that they flipped Papadopoulos. He`s a cooperator. And I agree that this is only the beginning.
What I would be concerned about if I was in the Trump camp is who has Papadopoulos been talking to, who has he communicated with. You know, we have seen reporting -- I believe that you had mentioned earlier, Chris, about how Sam Clovis, who was also, I think, co-chair of the campaign, is one of those individuals that Papadopoulos was communicating with. He`s just been appointed -- or excuse me, nominated to be undersecretary of agriculture. So you know, he is somebody who potentially Papadopoulos could be testifying against and providing information against.
So you know, those e-mails raise some very serious questions. There`s one passage in there that I talked about on Twitter about how there`s a footnote that says, We should not -- let`s not send somebody high level. Let`s send a low level person to deal with the Russians.
And that suggests to me a consciousness that this is a very problematic activity. And you know, the fact that there`s a suggestion from the White House that this is going to wrap up quickly is either willful, you know, misdirection or it`s hopeful thinking.
MATTHEWS: Well, Jennifer, this isn`t the only attempt by the Russians to sell dirt on Hillary and try to establish a relationship with the Trump team. I mean, this was in May, we`re talking about, of last year.
In June, they had the infamous meeting at Trump Tower where they did the same thing. The lawyer came in -- the woman lawyer came in with, "I`ve got some stuff." Turns out she didn`t have anything in hand, but she was offering something.
And I watched -- you know, like a lot of us have watched "The Americans" for years, trying to figure out what the Russians -- how KGB people operate, and Putin is the ultimate KGB person. And it looks like they`re trying to entrap, if you will, engage, if you want to put it more positively, the Trump team in some sort of Russian plan to proceed with their interests.
JENNIFER RODGERS, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, that`s right. And of course, when the news started coming out about that June meeting of last year, the immediate response was, Oh, yes, we had that meeting, but they didn`t give us anything. Nothing happened. In fact, all we talked about was adoptions, et cetera.
So you know, now we know kind of yet again that that narrative isn`t really the right one, that in fact, they were actively engaged and interested in getting dirt from the Russians and were pursuing that as an active strategy for the campaign.
MATTHEWS: Well, what would you think if you thought -- oh, here`s a guy, Donald Trump, president of the United States. First of all, he has consistently said there was no effort by the Russians to interfere with our elections last year. And then he said there was absolutely no response by our team to anything to do with them. I mean, the walls keep crumbling on his notion of the alternative truth.
RODGERS: That`s true...
MATTHEWS: Is he a credible witness? Would Trump be a credible witness in court on this case based on what he said?
RODGERS: Well, I mean -- look, when he -- when he first started doing it, he said -- he said, with Jim Comey -- I and tons of other people said if it`s really a credibility contest between the two of them, you know, Comey wins that hands-down. I mean, Trump has again and again proven to be someone who speaks inaccurately, to say the very least. So I think he is not a credible witness.
I think his view is just deny, deny, deny and you know, hope that ultimately, the case doesn`t get up to as high as he is.
MATTHEWS: Let me go back to Mike on this because I`ve been following your reporting so well. And I have to tell you -- you and have I watched movies about prosecutors. And they usually have a wall somewhere, and on the wall, they have all these faces and they`re trying to put them together. And you got Papadopoulos, a smaller face in the story so far, but yet it turns out he may have been the first one to receive the Russian overture. And then you`ve got Manafort, who was sort of a Russian-oriented guy to begin with. You`ve got all these Russian connections, Carter Page, all of them. They all seem to -- you know, Michael Flynn. Everybody`s got a Russian deal.
I`ve never seen anything like it. I`ve been following American politics since I was 5 or 6, and I never heard of Russian connections in any regard in any campaign in any party by anybody, by any candidate. All of a sudden, you have a candidate comes along, Donald Trump has got Russia all over the place. I do think of Jackie Mason saying he walks through the blood, he walks around the blood, with O.J. Why so much Russian?
How do you put it together on a chart on a wall. Papadopoulos today getting indicted for what, a couple of months in Allenwood, maybe to play tennis up there, and the other guy facing what, 30, 40 years or whatever. How do you put it together in terms of filling out that chart and tracing, if there was, a conspiracy?
SCHMIDT: Well, you don`t. And what you try and do is you try and take every piece of information like the piece that we have today and contextualize it and see if there is anything larger there.
This is a significant thing. You know, we`ve had different incremental developments along the way here, some bigger than others, you know, the Trump Tower meeting being one of them. And this is another one that sort of elevates the story again. And it doesn`t provide all the answers we want, and we won`t have that for some time.
But we do today have a better understanding of what the campaign knew and what their efforts were. And that`s significant. And that`s what`s different. That`s what`s different about this story.
MATTHEWS: Back to you, Renato. How do you see the dynamic of the prosecution now? Mueller`s starting from the very beginning. He`s starting with the first sign of a Russian attempt to hook up, if you will, with the Trump people. And then you see -- you have a guy who they may be able to squeeze for more because he was a big shot in the campaign last May. He was the kind of guy that Papadopoulos would have to deal with at the top in terms of agreeing to a trip back to Russia to pick up the stuff, to agree to accept the stuff, more generally to agree to play ball with Putin. This is a serious business, that somebody at the top has to make that decision, I would think.
MARIOTTI: Well, no question about that, Chris. And what I think will happen is Mueller is going to be putting pressure. You know, he`s already put pressure on Papadopoulos. So what they`ve already been doing -- you know, one thing we learned today, Chris, is that Papadopoulos was arrested back in July. This deal was consummated on October 5th. So you know, Mueller`s running a pretty tight ship, and he has been putting the screws on Papadopoulos for -- for, you know, months now, getting Papadopoulos to cooperate against others.
I would imagine now the next target is going to be, whether it`s Clovis or someone else who was directly dealing with Papadopoulos. And in the meantime, just to be clear, you know, if you`re Manafort`s attorney, I know he made sort of a bold statement that you played earlier. But he`s facing some serious charges. And there could be more to come.
MATTHEWS: Why is he defending Trump? Why is that lawyer out there sounding like he`s Trump`s lawyer instead of Manafort`s lawyer? Our producers were saying this guy doesn`t make sense as an attorney.
MARIOTTI: I`ll tell you how. The only way it makes sense, Chris, is one word, pardon because, otherwise, that statement was foolish. It was actually -- it was unprofessional and it was doing a disservice to his client. Blasting the prosecutor when your client is facing, you know, 10 years or more in prison on very serious charges that are going to be difficult to defend -- it`s literally -- it`s malpractice.
And I think at this point, if there is not a pardon that is forthcoming for Paul Manafort, he should be considering cooperation. And so I assume that`s what his attorney is trying to get.
MATTHEWS: Counselor, I just heard the word "bingo" in my mind -- bingo, the pardon. Thank you so much, Michael Schmidt. Thank you, Renato Mariotti and Jennifer Rodgers.
Much more to get on this big day of breaking news, including what do we now know about George Papadopoulos, the Trump campaign foreign policy adviser whose guilty plea was announced today? But boy, he got off easy, zero to six months at a nice place. What other Trump officials could be implicated by Papadopoulos himself? We`ll get the latest, next.
Plus, the White House spin machine. The Trump team is ramping up its response, but you`ve heard it all before. Trump says there was no collusion, and then attacked, of course, his usual suspect, Hillary Rodham Clinton.
And as special prosecutor Robert Mueller makes his first move, what happens if Trump decides to fire him? Tonight, Democrats are warning Trump against doing just that. But will he be able to stop himself?
Finally, let me finish tonight with the arrival tomorrow of "Bobby Kennedy: A Raging Spirit."
And this is HARDBALL, where the action is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
A programing note now about the nationwide tour for my new book, "Bobby Kennedy: A Raging Spirit," whose official publication date is tomorrow. Well, today at 9:00 PM Eastern, I will be a guest on "The Rachel Maddow Show" right here on MSNBC. Then I`ll be back up in the morning, thing tomorrow to discuss the book on "Morning Joe." That`s the kickoff, the big day for this book. "Bobby Kennedy: A Raging Spirit" arrives in book stores tomorrow, October 31st.
And we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Well, the news that two Trump associates have been indicted and another already pleaded guilty to charges in connection with the Russian probe is an indication that Mueller, Bob Mueller, is getting closer to showing collusion. Most significant is the news that former Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos is cooperating with investigators. So how does this little known adviser connect to Trump and others inside the campaign?
Well, in an interview with "The Washington Post" back in March of last year, Trump names Papadopoulos, along with Carter Page, as members of his foreign policy advisory team. Trump even vouched for Papadopoulos, calling him an excellent guy.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
QUESTION: We heard you might be announcing your foreign policy advisory team soon.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you want, I could give you some of the names.
QUESTION: Be delighted.
TRUMP: I wouldn`t mind.
Carter Page, Ph.D. George Papadopoulos, he`s an oil and energy consultant, excellent guy.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, now documents in connection with his plea show that, at a meeting late last March -- or late March with then candidate Trump and then Senator Jeff Sessions, Papadopoulos said he had connections that could arrange a meeting between Trump and Vladimir Putin himself.
The filings also showed that, by late April, Papadopoulos and perhaps others in the campaign were aware that -- quote -- "The Russians had e- mails of Clinton, in fact, thousands of e-mails, and that they have dirt on her."
Wow. Well, that information was given to Papadopoulos almost two months before news even arrived here of Russia`s hacking, which was made public then.
We also now know that Papadopoulos regularly updated members of the Trump campaign team about his Russian contacts.
I`m joined by Ken Dilanian, investigative report with NBC News, and Frank Figliuzzi, who is a former assistant director for counterintelligence at the FBI.
Gentlemen, thank you.
Ken, how it could be that a character -- and these have become almost a play of characters -- like George Papadopoulos be so unknown to us and all of the sudden come about to be the first person really to receive the Russian overture of information of dirt on Hillary?
KEN DILANIAN, NBC NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, one possible explanation for that is this was not the only Russian overture. This is just the one we`re finding out about right now, because you`re absolutely right.
No one can claim that George Papadopoulos was a well-known figure, even within the Trump campaign. Senior Trump officials were telling reporters today they had never heard of this guy.
And that`s actually believable. He is 30 years old. He was not a major player. But, in point of fact, he was clearly in contact with people who many experts -- and you have got Frank Figliuzzi here, who is one of the foremost experts on how the Russians operate.
They say this was a classic Russian intelligence operation to recruit this guy. That`s what this looks like. The FBI didn`t quite spell that out in their documents that they released today. But that`s exactly what most experts are saying.
They were offering dirt on the Russians and e-mails one month after John Podesta -- we know now after John Podesta`s computer was hacked at the DNC. Here was this professor with links to the Kremlin offering this low-level guy thousands of Russian e-mails. That is hugely significant, Chris.
MATTHEWS: Well, let me go to Frank on that to follow up that reputation of greatness.
I want to hear from you now.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Let me -- you know, I watch "The Americans." I was a little late, but I have watched every one of the shows they have produced so far. And there`s a pattern.
People tell me it`s an authoritative pattern how they do business, how they seduce people, how they find people with weaknesses or sexual problems or financial problems or health problems, family problems, and they use them.
And here they find young people who just perhaps are -- perhaps not very sophisticated. They`re naive. You see, they went after Jared Kushner. They went after this young guy, Papadopoulos.
Tell me how you see the pattern here, how it fits their normal pattern, the Russians.
FRANK FIGLIUZZI, FORMER ASSISTANT FBI DIRECTOR: Sure, Chris.
If you look at all of the developments today through the lens of a counterintelligence professional -- and here is what I`m doing. I`m looking through that lens, and I`m seeing Russian fingerprints all over this.
So we have got a young man who is meeting with a professor who has links to the Kremlin. He gets introduced to a Ministry of Foreign Affairs official, which we know MFA is often a cover for Russian intelligence officers. He gets introduced to a woman who claims she is a relative of Vladimir Putin, but we find out today that she is not.
This is a classic cut-out, recruitment type operation. And let`s not forget the whole Manafort-Gates issue, where they had represented for $17 million a pro-Russian Kremlin connected candidate for president of Ukraine.
And where did that $17 million consulting money go? Cyprus. And who else uses Cyprus to launder money? The Russian intelligence services. So are we looking at a primer being handed to Manafort and Gates on how the Russians can manipulate a campaign and Manafort saying, I wonder if they could do that for us?
And the classic small guy, the Papadopoulos guy, who is the cut-out, he is expendable. Make him go to the meeting, not D.T., as we see referred to in the documents today, Donald Trump.
MATTHEWS: What do they want from us, the Russians? Why do they want to get involved in our elections?
FIGLIUZZI: U.S. sanctions are killing the Russians right now.
They need to be able to get that -- get their oil and gas out. They need to be able to do business with American businesses, and they`re not able to do that.
And you have got all of the oligarchs who are friends of Putin, their assets have been frozen around the world. They can`t move their cash. They are not happy campers. So, all of that is the target of change. And they`re trying to see a candidate like Trump who might be able accomplish that mission for them.
MATTHEWS: Well, NBC News is also reporting that Manafort is one of the unnamed high-ranking campaign officials described in that Papadopoulos plea deal, revealing that Manafort was aware of the effort to send Trump to Moscow.
In fact, Manafort didn`t want Trump to go, writing in an e-mail -- quote -- "Donald Trump is not doing these trips. It should be someone low-level in the campaign, so as not to send any signal" -- close quote.
Well, the plea further shows that, in August, Papadopoulos and another adviser were -- quote -- "encouraged by someone identified as the campaign supervisor to make the trip themselves." The supervisor has been identified by Yahoo News as campaign co-chair and policy adviser Sam Clovis.
I`m going to go back to my friend Ken.
Ken, if you look at this thing unwrapping, Trump`s current redoubt or the wall he puts up lately is, there was no Russian attempt to influence our election, not at all. And that`s Huckabee Sanders` job to keep saying that. And then there was no collusion on our part.
Now, wait a minute here. Well, if there is no collusion, why was this young guy Papadopoulos, why was Jared Kushner, your son-in-law, why were all so ready to meet any time the Russians wanted to meet? They were there. They were ready to show up and collude.
DILANIAN: That`s right.
MATTHEWS: I don`t know how far this is going to go. But the idea that they were totally innocent of any idea to collude is indefensible already, already.
DILANIAN: Absolutely, Chris.
And here -- what is interesting about what you just said about Papadopoulos coordinating with senior campaign officials is that Sarah Huckabee Sanders tried to say from the White House podium today that this was a low-level campaign aide operating on his own, he had nothing to do with the campaign.
That`s manifestly untrue, as exposed in these documents. And, you know, did the Trump campaign call the FBI and report an attempt by Russian intelligence to infiltrate them? No, they did not.
And did this guy Papadopoulos tell these senior officials in the Trump campaign that the Russians had offered him Hillary`s e-mails? Well, these documents are silent on that question, but you can bet that Robert Mueller knows the answer to that question, because he`s got Papadopoulos` e-mails, and he`s got a lot of other information about who he was talking to in the campaign.
MATTHEWS: Anyway, Frank, it`s great having you on. Frank Figliuzzi, it`s great having you on.
And, Ken, you`re my guy. Thanks so much, Ken Dilanian.
DILANIAN: Thanks, Chris.
MATTHEWS: More breaking news tonight. It just came out.
NBC News is now reporting this evening that Facebook estimates that, catch this, 126 million Americans, roughly one-third of all of us, received content from fake Russian-backed pages during the 2016 campaign, according to a prepared testimony given in the Senate Judiciary Committee.
I`m joined right now by the reporter of that. That`s NBC News` Carol Lee.
Explain the significance of the fact of the sheer numbers involved here.
CAROL LEE, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it`s a very high number; 126 million is, I think, more than people would have expected.
What this is, specifically, Chris, is, this is content that was generated by pages, fake pages by Russia -- that were backed by Russia. So it was things like videos or fake news or, you know, pictures, things like that, and that they were posted.
And then, you know, the way they got to 126 million is that, initially, 29 million people saw that content directly. But then they reposted it, shared it, liked it, and it got spread. And so it grew and grew and grew to this 129 million number, which, as you mention, is a significant number, if, potentially, about half of eligible voters in the U.S. would have seen this content.
Now, Facebook is really -- in this prepared testimony that we received is really downplaying this. They`re saying this was an extremely insignificant number when you put it in the context of the whole scheme of what Facebook users typically see on their news feeds.
But this is obviously going to be something of huge interest to the congressional investigators during the testimony of the next two days.
MATTHEWS: I bet it will. Thank you so much with great breaking news from Carol Lee of NBC.
LEE: Thank you.
MATTHEWS: Up next: The Trump spin machine is firing on all cylinders. The president is trying to, of course, deflect attention from the big indictments today. But, once again, they`re going after, as they call it, crooked Hillary, the same old suspect. They always blame her.
This is HARDBALL, where the action is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RICHARD LUI, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Hi. I`m Richard Lui in the MSNBC newsroom.
Netflix pulling the plug on its hit show "House of Cards" after its sixth season ends next year. The online streaming service saying in a statement it is deeply troubled over allegations of unwanted sexual advances in 1986 by Kevin Spacey against then 14-year-old Anthony Rapp. Spacey saying he does not remember the incident.
President Trump and the first lady handed out candy to trick-or-treaters at the White House tonight for Halloween -- now back to HARDBALL.
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
President Trump, in an effort to distract from the Russian probe, has fired up the spin machine, accusing Hillary Clinton and Democrats of campaign crimes and questionable deals.
Shortly after news of Manafort`s indictment was released today, the president tweeted: "Sorry, but this is years ago, before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign. But why aren`t crooked Hillary and the Dems the focus? Also, there is no collusion."
Over the weekend the president tweeted: "All this Russia talk right when the Republicans are making their historic splash for historic tax cuts and reform. Is this coincidental? Not."
Does President Trump really think that blaming Hillary and the Democrats is his best defense tonight?
For more, I`m joined by Bret Stephens, columnist with "The New York Times," an MSNBC contributor as well, and former U.S. Congresswoman Nan Hayworth, who is now on the board of directors at the Independent Women`s Forum.
Congresswoman, thank you for joining us.
NAN HAYWORTH (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSWOMAN: Thanks, Chris.
Bret, I want to start with you about strategy. Does deflection to Hillary have any value here, because -- well, doesn`t it -- open question.
BRET STEPHENS, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, well, look, it`s a terrific strategy, because Donald Trump I think learned long ago that truth is what you can get away with.
And I guess the corollary to that is truth is what people will let you get away with. Trump saw an opening in the fact that the Clinton campaign seems to have either lied or at least not told the truth about its role in paying for some of the research that went to Fusion GPS, some of the opposition research.
This, to me, strikes me as irrelevant. The only relevant issue is whether the research in that dossier is true. But they have been able, as you said, to wave enough terrible towels in the face of the media that people are buying it.
And don`t be surprised if the next thing that Trump does is simply issue a blanket pardon to everyone, including Manafort, Page, and so on, perhaps including himself, to simply put this behind him. These things work.
MATTHEWS: Let me go to the congresswoman.
Do you believe Donald Trump at his word?
HAYWORTH: I had no evidence to think otherwise in terms of any of these dealings that we have been talking about, Chris.
MATTHEWS: OK.
Donald Trump spent a year saying that Barack Obama was an illegal immigrant who snuck in the country, assumed a false identity, really didn`t go to the schools he went to, nobody knew him, and somehow became president. He stuck to that line until some Friday afternoon, he dumped it and said, oh, I didn`t really believe that.
Did you believe it all those months? Did you believe Donald Trump with his birther theory? Did you?
HAYWORTH: I believed that President Obama was born in Hawaii.
But, Chris, that`s not the point here.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Well, why do you now believe Trump is telling the truth? Is he a truth-teller?
HAYWORTH: But, Chris, that`s -- that`s -- that`s -- that`s not the point here.
MATTHEWS: It isn`t?
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: I asked you, do you take him at his word? I`m just asking that simple question.
HAYWORTH: The point is -- I`m absolutely taking the president at his word about this Russian collusion question.
MATTHEWS: So, when he says that his people never -- that there was no Russian involvement in the campaign, that the Russians never tried to pursue an overture to his campaign to offer them dirt on Hillary, even as we`re getting this testimony, under oath, we`re getting this -- and you`re denying the truth of that and believing Trump when he says there was no Russian attempt to influence our campaign, no Russian influence in the campaign, nobody in my campaign had anything to do with flirting with them and to receive that information.
You stick to that line?
HAYWORTH: Chris, what the president has said substantively is that the Russians did not assist, he did not have assistance from the Russians in winning the 2016 election, which he did not.
And it`s very clear, Chris. It`s clear to every American with any common sense that the Russians have tried to manipulate on both sides of the aisle in the 2016 election. But, in fact, where they succeeded...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Carol Lee just reported 126 million people were given Facebook advertisements from the Russians to influence the campaign. Isn`t that significant, a little?
HAYWORTH: Chris, Chris, listen to me.
Number one, we all have to be discerning consumers of information. That`s eminently clear, no matter what our political persuasion is.
But there has been an avalanche of information. As you know, the FBI has just released a major informant from his NDA regarding the millions and millions of dollars that flowed into the Clinton Foundation, the Clinton Global Initiative, the half-million dollars that went to President Bill Clinton to speak with a Russian bank, all the while Secretary Clinton was one of nine Cabinet members on CFIUS, the board approving effectively the sale of 20 percent of our uranium supply to Russia.
That is huge and important.
MATTHEWS: Well, that was all done by -- that was all done -- that was not illegal. That was done -- you can argue that.
By the way, the uranium cannot reach any other country but the United States without the approval of the United States. So, this idea that they`re the Rosenbergs and they should be executed is insane.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Let me go back to this thing.
Have you any evidence that Hillary Clinton got any help by the Russians in the 2016 election?
HAYWORTH: I think there is plenty of evidence coming that Hillary Clinton effectively got help.
MATTHEWS: Where? Where?
HAYWORTH: And, by the way, where are her 33,000 e-mails?
MATTHEWS: Give me some.
HAYWORTH: Connect the dots, Chris.
MATTHEWS: Give me some evidence.
HAYWORTH: OK, Frank Giustra, right, whose company was Uranium One, collaborating with Rosatom, gave, under the cover of being Canadian, so being a foreign citizen, so it didn`t have to show up immediately on their disclosures. What a clever idea.
MATTHEWS: What did that have to do with the campaign?
HAYWORTH: Millions and millions of dollars to the Clinton Foundation and the Clinton Global Initiative?
MATTHEWS: In exchange for what?
HAYWORTH: And Hillary Clinton is either so clueless or ignorant that she has no idea of it?
Chris, that just defies common sense.
MATTHEWS: OK.
HAYWORTH: There is real Russian collusion and intervention and cooperation there.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: But I want to go back -- Congresswoman, you know this. You know that that uranium cannot be transported outside the United States. So, why are you...
HAYWORTH: Well, here is something I do know.
MATTHEWS: Why are you talking about it being some sort of a Rosenberg case kind of situation? It cannot be sent outside the United States under federal law. Why do you keep suggesting there was some intrigue here?
(CROSSTALK)
HAYWORTH: OK, let me give you name.
Vadim Mikerin, OK, Mikerin, he is the only figure, he is one figure who was finally indicted after years and convicted after years of investigation of the collusion and the connections between the Russians and the Russian nuclear industry and the Americans.
And what he was doing was effectively bribing and overcharging for the transport of commercial uranium by Russian sellers to United States nuclear plants, OK, nuclear fuel.
MATTHEWS: Right. How does that provide strategic materials to Russia?
Anyway...
HAYWORTH: They were overcharging.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: ... what does this got to do with the problem -- what`s this got to do with Donald Trump`s problem right now?
HAYWORTH: It has to do...
MATTHEWS: His campaign manager has just been indicted on huge numbers of counts that could put him away for 30 or 40 years.
He is getting squeezed by the special prosecutor.
HAYWORTH: OK.
MATTHEWS: You have got Papadopoulos -- Papadopoulos, who has just come out. It turns out that he was getting overtures from the Russians, just like Jared Kushner was getting them a month later.
There is all evidence here that there was collusion or certainly close to collusion. And you`re laughing because I know that technique.
HAYWORTH: I`m only laughing because --
MATTHEWS: But that doesn`t exonerate Trump laughing about it.
HAYWORTH: Chris, I`m not -- I`m laughing because the collusion is all very evidently on the Clinton side, OK? So the Russians were overcharging us for our own uranium, for heaven`s sakes. They were reselling it to us.
MATTHEWS: They`re not allowed to get the uranium under our laws, and you know that.
HAYWORTH: They were selling commercial uranium to the United States nuclear plants --
MATTHEWS: OK.
HAYWORTH: -- at an inflated profit with the apparent benign oversight by the United States government.
MATTHEWS: Is what you`re saying now going to in any substantive way protect Trump`s operation from prosecution? Because it`s moving forward, the prosecution.
You have a guy pleading a case today, pleading himself out so he can talk. Obviously, Papadopoulos. You`ve got another fellow who was chairman of your campaign last year, chairman of the president`s campaign who now faces multi-years of imprison.
How can you say all we have to do is wave this little distraction and everybody is going to think about somebody else? It doesn`t matter what right wingers think about something else. What matters is the prosecution and the evidence they`re developing. And all your talk about distraction isn`t going to help your side.
HAYWORTH: But, Chris, only you can consider it a distraction. Folks from the left consider it a distraction. Robert Mueller when he was FBI director was examining this entire relationship for years, all the Russian overcharging.
MATTHEWS: Congresswoman, thank you.
HAYWORTH: And bribery.
MATTHEWS: I think you`re doing your best. I understand. I`ve seen this before in politics. I get it. But it`s not going to change reality.
HAYWORTH: But it`s the truth, Chris.
MATTHEWS: Bret Stephens, I`ve got to give you the last word, Brett. You know, I watched Watergate in real-time like a lot of people did. After all the arguments and distractions and get off his back and Rabbi Korf and the hard hats on his side, in the end, it was the evidence. In the end, it was the evidence that he was part of the cover-up, the 23rd tape.
Will this case end on the evidence, do you think?
BRET STEPHENS, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, look, it`s hard to claim collusion between Clinton and the Russians when she was the one who suffered from the Russian disclosures of her e-mails.
And I would say to the congresswoman, look, I`m on the political right. I voted for Republicans in every election up until the last one.
It`s conservatives who should be most concerned about the fact that so many members, senior members of the Trump campaign were so interested in changing the tone with Russia to the point that they were willing to change the Republican party platform in order to appease Russian interests. That was the same kind of policy you and other Republicans were criticizing when it was the reset under the Obama administration with Russia. It should be Republicans who are most concerned that there was so much collusion between or cooperation or commonality of interest between the person who is now the president of the United States and the government of the Soviet Union, Russia.
MATTHEWS: By the way, Congresswoman, with all due respect, and I don`t mean that sarcastically, a lot of our viewers are chuckling, even hooting at the idea that Hillary is part of the American left. They don`t believe that.
Thank you, Bret Stephens, and thank you, Nan Hayworth.
HAYWORTH: Congratulations on your book.
MATTHEWS: Thank you very much.
Up next, the special counsel Bob Mueller closing in? Maybe. How will the president respond? He`s been warned against it, but will he try and fire Mueller? You don`t think it`s that outlandish if you know Trump. He did fire Comey.
You`re watching HARDBALL, where the action is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
As Robert Mueller makes his first criminal charges today, Democrats are already stepping up efforts to protect the special counsel. Minority leader in the Senate, Chuck Schumer, issued a warning in fact on the Senate floor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: The president must not under any circumstances in any way interfere with the special counsel`s work. If he does, Congress must respond swiftly, unequivocally, and in a bipartisan way to ensure that the investigation continues and the truth, the whole truth comes out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said there is no plan to fire the special counsel. But in some conservative quarters, people are openly calling for his removal.
Let`s bring in the HARDBALL roundtable. Heidi Przybyla, White House reporter for "USA Today", Jonathan Allen, national political reporter for NBC News Digital, and Jason Johnson is politics editor for theroot.com.
Heidi, you start. Just kick the ball around tonight. What are the chances that Trump will see the end coming and try to stop it by destroying Mueller, getting rid of him?
HEIDI PRZYBYLA, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, USA TODAY: Well, you could see that the Democrats are really concerned because they`re looking at the president`s own past statements, which is that if Mueller crosses a red line, which is looking into his finances, that that would be cause for firing him. And today, we learned that`s exactly what he is doing with these Paul Manafort charges.
But at the same time, Chris, I think right now, there is just too much political potential downside to doing this. And the president is not going to do it. At least until it seems that this is going to be more focused on Trump himself. And that Paul Manafort isn`t the top of the fish head.
I think that it would take a Archibald Cox type Saturday night massacre for president to get there, because he has to go through the framework of the Justice Department. He`d have to pressure Christopher Wray or he`d had to fire Christopher Wray. So, the logistics are difficult.
And two, it would be devastating for his presidency at this point. He would lose all political capital. And I think the impeachment bell that has been really kind of subterranean. You only have a few Democrats actually going in that direction, would start to ring a lot louder.
JONATHAN ALLEN, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, NBC NEWS DIGITAL: And, Chris, Heidi is absolutely right about that Saturday night massacre reference. We all know how that turned out for President Richard Nixon. Not very well.
I think that was a moment when a lot of Republicans decided that he was basically violating the law and left his side. You know, I also think that there is a possibility, remote as it may seem right now, if the president fired the special prosecutor looking into him, Robert Mueller, that you would start to have some talk in the cabinet about whether to move on him from there.
There is a 25th Amendment scenario in which the cabinet can certify that the president isn`t fit for office. I think we`re a long way from that. But I also think we`re a long way from the president firing Mueller. I think that would be a tremendously bad move politically for him.
JASON JOHNSON, POLITICS EDITOR, THEROOT.COM: Chris, it really depends on how close they think the dagger is. How close they think this is to getting to Trump, because on the one hand, you have some lawyers saying see, this proves it`s all about Manafort. It doesn`t have anything to do with Trump.
And I think there`s a real calculation here, that not just Trump, but his closest advisers have to be thinking about it. You notice we`ve had fewer leaks since the Mueller investigation? If you get rid of Mueller, then all the leaks come back. All the people who have problems with this administration, the deep state as they claim will go back to saying, look, this is the only way we can stop this guy.
So, there may be a real sense let`s just wait this out. Let`s see if other people get turned before Trump does something that drastic.
MATTHEWS: Let`s see if Mueller announce she`s going after Trump`s tax returns, how long his job exist?
Anyway, thank you. Because I don`t think Trump wants anybody near, anybody near his tax returns.
Anyway, the roundtable is sticking with us. We`ll be back with them. HARDBALL, where the action is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Up next, the HARDBALL roundtable is going to give me three scoops about the Russia investigation you`ll be talking about forever. Back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: We`re back with the HARDBALL round table.
Heidi, tell me something I don`t know.
PRZYBYLA: Chris, in the coming days, you`re going to see a concerted effort from this administration to distance itself from Paul Manafort. But we unearthed a quote from Newt Gingrich, who is very close to the administration from August of last year that I think we should all keep in mind.
Quote, nobody should underestimate how much Paul Manafort did to really help get this campaign to where it is right now. Paul Manafort was right in the middle of everything at that time when the Russia collusion -- or the potential Russia collusion was at its height.
MATTHEWS: Good for the Newtster. Anyway, thank you.
Jonathan?
ALLEN: Manafort gives very few political contributions. One person he has given money to is Congressman Dana Rohrabacher, his former colleague in the Reagan White House, who also happens to be the most pro-Russia lawmaker on Capitol Hill.
MATTHEWS: The surfing congressman.
Anyway, Jason?
JOHNSON: Chris, we all know part of these charges are a FARA violation on Manafort`s part. The Foreign Agent Registration Act where you have to admit that you`re lobbying on the part of a foreign country. The Department of Justice did their own investigation on FARA enforcement in 2016. They have only prosecuted seven people in the last 50 years for violating FARA. Manafort is now the eighth.
MATTHEWS: Number eight.
Anyway, thank you, Heidi, Heidi Przybyla, Jonathan Allen and Jason Johnson.
When we return, let me finish tonight with the arrival tomorrow of "Bobby Kennedy: A Raging Spirit". You`re watching HARDBALL.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Let me finish with the arrival tomorrow of "Bobby Kennedy: A Raging Spirit."
The book offers a revival of the American spirit, a reminder that what we`re seeing today is not the way it has to be. That instead of racial division between blacks and white, between police and community, we can actually have leaders who unite us, who believe law and justice must work hand in hand. But instead of cynical manipulation of public emotions, we can actually have leaders with true moral authority, as Robert Kennedy showed when he walked before a crowd of African Americans to plead for peace and understanding just after the death of Dr. Martin Luther King, who had white working class Americans standing in fervent salute to him as his body was taken by train from New York to join his brother at Arlington cemetery, who believed and said so that cops and waitresses and firefighters were his people.
"Bobby Kennedy: A Raging Spirit" revives the life of someone who believes minorities and working class whites could be united in political purpose.
And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.
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