Summary
24 hours after the unprecedented FBI search of Donald Trump`s Florida home, one of his coup-plotting allies in Congress, Republican Scott Perry of Pennsylvania says he was stopped by three federal agents while traveling with his family. House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy even issued a direct threat to Attorney General Merrick Garland and the DOJ over its raid of Trump`s home in Mar-a-Lago.
Transcript
JASON JOHNSON, MSNBC HOST: And that`s tonight`s REIDOUT. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALICIA MENENDEZ, MSNBC HOST (voiceover): Tonight on ALL IN.
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER LAWYER OF DONALD TRUMP: Knock, knock. Who`s there? The (BLEEP) FBI. That`s who`s there.
MENENDEZ: New details on Donald Trump`s visit from the FBI.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They also said that they were looking for classified documents, evidence of a crime as far as classified documents go.
MENENDEZ: Tonight, what we`re learning about what the FBI was looking for, the investigators who perform the search, and late reporting that a Republican member of Congress had his phone seized by the FBI.
Then, Congressman Eric Swalwell on whether Justice is closing in on Donald Trump. Plus, unpacking the Republican response one day later.
JESSE WATTERS, HOST, FOX NEWS: I`m angry. I feel violated.
RONNA MCDANIEL, CHAIRWOMAN, RNC: President Trump is right when he compared this to Watergate.
LAURA INGRAHAM, HOST, FOX NEWS: The real target of this investigation isn`t Trump. The real target of this investigation is you.
MENENDEZ: And alarming new reporting from NBC News on right-wing threats of violence in defense of Donald Trump, when ALL IN starts right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ (on camera): Good evening from New York. I`m Alicia Menendez in for Chris Hayes. 24 hours after the unprecedented FBI search of Donald Trump`s Florida home, one of his coup-plotting allies in Congress, Republican Scott Perry of Pennsylvania says he was stopped by three federal agents while traveling with his family. According to Perry, the agents presented a search warrant to confiscate his cell phone, which they then did.
In a statement the congressman said, "My phone contains info about my legislative and political activities and personal/private discussions with my wife, family, constituents and friends. None of this is the government`s business." Perry is the head of the far-right House Freedom Caucus and he has been a major proponent of Trump`s big lie.
Following the 2020 election, Perry tried to sell the White House in a number of baseless conspiracy theories including the China hacked voting machines that the British government collaborated with the CIA to rig the election and that Italian satellites had manipulated the vote tallies. He also worked with the White House to plan strategies to throw out the results in states Trump lost.
Congressman Perry was a key player in the failed scheme to appoint a Department of Justice official in Jeffrey Clark as Acting Attorney General. So, Clark could weaponize the department to help spread Trump`s false claims of fraud. In fact, Perry introduced Trump to Clark. It`s not every day that a sitting congressman`s cell phone is seized by the feds especially one day after, as Trump put it, the FBI raided his home, although a more accurate term might be, "lawfully executed a search warrant."
We are learning that federal agents in plainclothes gave advance notice to the Secret Service present at Mar-a-Lago and provided them with a copy of the warrant for spending most of yesterday`s searching Trump`s offices on the premises, including as the ex-president told us, breaking into his safe. We now know that the search warrant was related to the federal investigation into missing classified documents that Trump took from the White House. The National Archives well, they want them back.
At the beginning of this year, the Washington Post reported that representatives from the archives retrieved 15 boxes of documents Trump improperly took. But that was apparently not everything. Because according to a new report from The Washington Post, DOJ officials, including a counterterrorism head named Jay Bratt, went down to Mar-a-Lago in June to inquire about more documents.
"Trump stopped by the meeting as it began to greet the investigators but was not interviewed. The lawyer showed the federal officials the boxes, and Bratt and the others spent some time looking through the material. A lawyer for Trump said the Justice Department officials commented that they did not believe the storage unit was properly secured, so Trump Officials added a lock to the facility."
When FBI agents searched the property Monday, they broke through the lock that had been added to the door. According to Trump`s lawyer, the FBI removed about a dozen boxes that had been stored in the basement storage area. While the search warrant left by agents was not shared, Trump`s lawyer said that it "indicated agents were investigating possible violations of laws dealing with the handling of classified material and the Presidential Records Act."
Worth noting just how remarkable it is that there was a warrant at all. In order to obtain a federal search warrant investigators need to successfully argue that there is probable cause a crime was committed and that evidence of the crime can be found in the location they want to search. It requires the sign-off from two branches of government the executive branch, by way the DOJ, and FBI, and the judicial branch with a judge needing to approve the warrant. And with a case this unprecedented, it likely involved top- level officials at the DOJ including potentially the Attorney General himself.
[20:05:07]
Christina Bobb, the Trump lawyer who spoke to the Washington Post confirm the FBI did seize documents from Mar-a-Lago, even as she now tries to argue that the FBI is simply lying about the alleged crime and potentially fabricating evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTINA BOBB, LAWYER FOR DONALD TRUMP: I don`t think that there was actually anything there that`s worthwhile. We`ll see what they come up with. You know, if they did, it will be interesting especially since they precluded me from actually watching what they did. But at this point, I don`t necessarily think that they would even go to the extent of trying to plant information. I think they just make stuff up, and you know, come up with whatever they want. And that`s the way that they will have to proceed in order to actually try to indict the president because they don`t have anything. There`s just nothing there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: Neither Trump nor his attorneys provided any evidence to support that outlandish claim. And there`s absolutely no reason to believe is more than just spin. But given what we are learning, it appears that the troubles do not end there for the twice-impeached ex-President.
Ashley Parker is the White House Bureau Chief for The Washington Post. She has been covering the investigation into these missing documents since its inception and she joins me now. Ashley, your colleagues have reported that the FBI took about a dozen boxes from Mar-a-Lago yesterday. What more do we know?
ASHLEY PARKER, THE WASHINGTON POST, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF: Well, that`s -- there`s a ton we don`t know and I think it`s important to start there. But we at the Washington Post have been covering this for months really. So, we know now that there have been over two dozen boxes taken from Mar-a- Lago. There were the initial 15 we reported on when the National Archives, after former President Trump left office, was sort of going through their normal process and realized, wait a minute, we don`t have everything we think we should have. And they started reaching out to Trump and his team and they retrieved 15 boxes.
And it`s also worth noting that some of the stuff that they got back then willingly was stuff that had been shredded and ripped and taped back together, which was a pension of Trump`s. And that now, despite Trump and his team, saying that they had sort of turned over everything, including during this visit in June where they went down there -- officials went down there again and said, wait a minute, we think there`s some more stuff that you owe us, you owe back to the government and to the National Archives, that today they found a dozen more boxes.
So, that does tell you there is a pretty yawning discrepancy between what Trump and his team handed over and felt they needed to hand over and what the FBI felt they still had that did not rightfully belong at Trump`s private compound.
MENENDEZ: Back in February, Ashley, you reported on what Trump`s advisors were saying about some of the documents in question. "Trump advisors denied any nefarious intent and said the boxes contained momentos, gifts, letters from world leaders and other correspondence. The items included correspondence with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un which Trump wants described as love letters, as well as a letter leaped for Trump by President Barack Obama.
I mean, Ashley, understanding that we don`t know what we don`t know, can we assume it was more than just momentos, gifts, sweet nothings from Kim Jong- un then?
PARKER: We cannot absolutely assume that because we know that. I think it`s important to the broad picture say that the Trump team has often used sort of incompetence and chaos as a defense. This is what they claimed back when he was president. They said, you know, we couldn`t have possibly colluded with the Russians. We were too stupid during the campaign to collude with the Russians. That was sort of what they were saying at this time early on that it was a willy-nilly chaotic packing process. Trump and his team probably just threw some extra things in the boxes. They didn`t really understand what they were taking. It was just these light-hearted harmless mementos.
But again, as we have reported previously, yes, there were all of those things. There was a model, for instance of Air Force One. But there were also classified documents. Some of those classified documents were marked Top Secret. And some of those top secret documents were so sensitive and are so sensitive that they can`t even be described publicly in the broadest of terms.
So, yes, are there some mementos? Absolutely, but it`s far more serious. And this is sort of what as we started our reporting really aroused the initial concern.
MENENDEZ: Right. We were talking about classified top secret documents. You`re also inherently talking about national security. I want to get you in on this other story today. Congressman Scott Perry, deeply involved with Trump`s attempts to overturn the 2020 election, even separate from the context of yesterday`s Mar-a-Lago search.
This seizure of his cell phone would be a big deal. We would be talking about it tonight. How might Perry fit into this larger investigation?
[20:10:02]
PARKER: Well, one thing that this underscores, actually you mentioned this larger investigation, is just how many investigations there are --
MENENDEZ: Fair enough.
PARKER: -- that`s going on right now of the former president and his allies. So, that`s something that they want to, you know -- so, there`s the January 6 Committee investigation. There`s investigations in Georgia. There`s investigations in New York. And there`s this particular investigation involving the National Archives. It seems like the Perry seizing of his cell phone likely has to do with January 6, because again, as you mentioned in a very comprehensive intro, the congressman was one of the first people who -- the first person who introduced the former president to Jeffrey Clark, was deeply enmeshed in the plans to try to overturn the results of a free and fair election.
And so again, recognizing that we don`t know what we don`t know and this is a rapidly developing and unfolding story, his cellphone records are much more likely it seems to be related to all of his involvement in January 6 in the efforts to overturn the election than some of the classified documents that the President took down to Mar-a-Lago.
MENENDEZ: Ashley Parker, as always, thank you.
Glenn Kirschner is a former federal prosecutor who spent 30 years in the Washington D.C. U.S. Attorney`s Office and Asha Rangappa is an attorney and former FBI special agent. They both join me now. Asha, I want to get you in on sort of the latest news here. We have learned that Republican Congressman Scott Perry had his cell phone seized by the FBI. Could these be tied to the FBI search of Trump`s home?
ASHA RANGAPPA, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: In my opinion, these are completely separate investigations. The classified documents would pertain to national security interests, and I think that the entire January 6 investigation is really separate and encompasses a large and wide ranging conspiracy to -- that they are investigating.
Where Scott Perry fits into this, as Ashley mentioned, he was instrumental in introducing Trump to Jeffrey Clark. Jeffrey Clark, in turn, was you know, instrumental in trying to get a letter sent to Georgia to get them to investigate fake allegations of voter fraud. And so, I think what you see here is this investigation into Jeffrey Clark which originated in the Office of the Inspector General at the Department of Justice because he was an employee there, is slowly creeping like Birnam Wood towards members of Congress and I think potentially towards Trump because Jeffrey Clark was -- or sorry -- Scott Perry was also connected to Mark Meadows.
Reportedly Mark Meadows burn documents after meeting with Scott Perry. So, this is -- you know, I think the January 6 thing is very complex, involves a lot of different moving parts. I think the classified documents piece is much more discreet and straightforward and separate from the January 6 investigation.
MENENDEZ: Setting fire to documents, ripping them up, taping them backup. You really, really can`t make it up, Glenn.
RANGAPPA: Yes.
MENENDEZ: I mean, what is the burden of proof necessary to obtain a warrant to search Mar-a-Lago? Glenn, it`s more than just like a hunch from investigators, right?
GLENN KIRSCHNER, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: It is more than a hunch. It`s a really rigorous process to obtain a federal search warrant. I know because I did it hundreds of times. So, after the FBI conducts the investigation, and collects up enough evidence where they believe they have probable cause to apply for a search warrant, that`s not the end of the equation.
What they do is they put all of that information about their investigation and the facts that lead them to conclude they have enough for a search warrant, they swear to it. It`s a sworn affidavit under the penalties of perjury. And they bring it to a federal prosecutor who`s working the case.
I reviewed hundreds of these applications for search warrants. I have to go through it. I have to assess the evidence, meet with the agent, and then I have to sign off on it, putting my own reputation on the line. And I have to certify that I believe that has enough evidence to make out the probable cause standard. Then, we shift over to a co-equal branch of government, the judiciary. And a judge makes his or her independent determination that yes, there`s enough evidence in the sworn affidavit to support the issuance of a search warrant.
And when -- this is a search warrant involving the home, perhaps the summer or winter home of a former president. I can promise you that the leadership of the Department of Justice made sure that there was probable cause plus, plus, plus supporting this application for a search warrant.
MENENDEZ: You know, it strikes me that there has been for very good reason, a lot of talk about the possibility of criminal charges here. But you argue that this warrant is potentially instead about neutralizing a national security threat. Tell me why.
RANGAPPA: Yes, I think things get more complicated when you have national security interests involved. You know, the Department of Justice has two different divisions, they have the National Security Division, they have the criminal division. And sometimes these divisions have different goals and sometimes they are even working at cross purposes.
[20:15:13]
What I think couldn`t be happening here -- this is just one possibility, and I say this to manage expectations -- is that the primary goal here was simply to retrieve these documents which present a grave national security threat. For example, if some of these documents included information about new defense technology, say, that the United States is developing. Maybe Trump just thought they were cool. And he`s -- he just has them. He was not doing anything with them. But we know that say China, which has technology collection is one of his priorities, is trying to get access to them. It would be in the interest of the United States government to get those away, to get those secure in such a way that they won`t be able to be accessed by adversaries who, you know, may intend harm to the United States.
If that`s the primary goal, then executing the search warrant is a way to obtain these documents, get them secure, and then the goal is met. The secondary interest would be to punish Trump. That would involve, you know, bringing charges, prosecuting them. And I defer to Glenn on this. I just think that that`s a whole different ballgame. And it involves a completely different calculation on Merrick Garland`s part on whether he wants to do that especially given the number of things on DOJ`s plate right now.
MENENDEZ: Glenn, I do want to bring you in on that, but I also want to bring in this element which is the New York Times quoting attorney Norm Eisen who serves as counsel for the House Judiciary Committee in Trump`s first impeachment is saying, "Whatever is found there, meaning that, you know, at Trump`s home, as long as agents comply with the warrant, could be used in other cases." Your thoughts.
KIRSCHNER: Oh, absolutely. And here, there`s also another doctrine called the Plain View Doctrine. And what that stands for is that when officers or agents or detectives are lawfully in a place and they were lawfully at Mar- a-Lago executing a judicially approved search warrant, if they see any other evidence of any other crime, they don`t have to stop and get a new search warrant.
They are lawfully entitled under the Plain View Doctrine, to seize it and to use it to further its investigation to move toward an indictment and they can use it in a prosecution, which is why I think the Scott Perry search warrant for his cell phone is really interesting given the timing that yesterday a warrant was executed at Mar-a-Lago. And today, the federal authorities went after and secured a search warrant for Scott Perry`s phone. It leads to a reasonable inference that they may have learned something in their search of Mar-a-Lago that gave them probable cause to then seize Scott Perry`s phone, though we don`t know that for sure.
MENENDEZ: Asha, we`ve got about a minute, but before I let you go, I do have to ask this. You are an FBI special agent. What do you make of this charge from Trump`s layers that the FBI may be fabricating evidence?
RANGAPPA: You know, I don`t even understand this because the evidence is the presence of unauthorized classified information at Mar-a-Lago. I don`t think that that`s in dispute. If you possess classified information and you are not authorized to possess it, or you are storing it insecurely, that can be a crime. So, I`m not sure exactly what they would fabricate because it sounds like when DOJ officials came to Mar-a-Lago in June, his lawyers actually showed them all the classified documents that were hanging around there and in fact, had to put a padlock on it because they weren`t secure.
So, I don`t know exactly what is being suggested that has been fabricated. I think here it`s a distraction because it`s very hard to defend the underlying conduct, especially given that this is the same conduct which many of these people wanted Hillary Clinton to be locked up for just four years ago.
MENENDEZ: Right, distractions are all they have left. Glenn Kirschner, Asha Rangappa, thank you both so much.
Still to come, after the FBI searches Donald Trump`s home, Trump`s far- right supporters, they are not handling it well. The wildest Republican reactions next.
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MENENDEZ: Almost immediately after we learned about the FBI search of Donald Trump`s home in Mar-a-Lago, the right-wing backlash began just minutes after the former President confirmed the search was taking place. Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee led by Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio fired off an impassioned tweet. "This is what happens in third world countries, not the United States. Doesn`t the FBI have better things to do than harass the former president?"
And Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia posted this rallying cry that reverberated around for right Twitter. "Defund the FBI." House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy even issued a direct threat to Attorney General Merrick Garland and the DOJ. "I`ve seen enough. The Department of Justice has reached an intolerable state of weaponized politicization. When Republicans take back the House, we will conduct immediate oversight of this department, follow the facts and leave no stone unturned. Attorney General Garland, preserve your documents and clear your calendar."
And on Fox News, the pro-Trump propaganda machine, well, it kicked into full gear.
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SEAN HANNITY, HOST, FOX NEWS: A dark day for our Republic, the Department of Justice, the rule of law.
[20:25:04]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the worst attack on this republic in modern history.
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: They say Banana Republic, I think it`s an understatement because it really feels like we are there.
DAN BONGINO, CONTRIBUTOR, FOX NEWS: This is some third-world bull right here.
WATTERS: I think there`s going to be some more action you`re going to see out on the streets from the base after they see this.
INGRAHAM: When we get power back, it`s time to hold everyone accountable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: Trump supporters went even further online, making dangerous comments, many of them even suggesting that it is time for a civil war. And violent rhetoric appear all over far-right message boards like on the Donald where the top comment was "lock and load."
Joining me now is NBC News Justice Reporter Ryan Reilly and former RNC Chairman Michael Steele. Ryan, what do we know about this dangerous right- wing chattering? Where is it coming from? Who is leading it? How widespread is it really?
RYAN REILLY, NBC NEWS JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes, it`s pretty widespread. And what`s especially interesting about that particular post on the Donald website, as my colleague Ben Collins and I reported, is that one of the top comments there that mention is a cold Civil War is actually from a current January 6 defendant who is awaiting sentence hearing.
You got to really feel bad for his lawyer here almost because he made this comment a few months away from sentencing, which is coming up in November, and it`s really not going to help his case. It`s not the type of thing that you want to put out there when you`re trying to convince a judge that you`re not a future threat, that this was a one off, that there`s no threat from you in the future. That`s not what you want to put out there.
And not only that, he also clarified that he was being careful with his rhetoric because he was a January 6, defendant. He also makes clear in these public comments that oh, I was withholding. I wasn`t saying how I really feel because I`m just worried about this future sentencing, even though making the comments that he did in the first place wasn`t the brightest move necessarily for his case.
But, I mean, it is a real issue that I think is in addition to everything else they`re doing that the FBI has to look at. Remember, the FBI is like only like maybe a third of the way through all of the criminal cases they can bring against defendants going forward. There were more than 2500 people who went inside the Capitol. There are more than 350 people who assaulted officers who still haven`t been arrested.
So, this is just a massive investigation. Throw on top of that the Trump, the Trump search as we saw. Throw on top of that all of these threats. So, there`s going to be some stuff that slipped through the cracks, frankly. It`s like they`re -- I mean, there`s no way that they can handle all that coming at the same time. So, if something happens in the future, I mean, I think that that`s something that we just have to really be aware of. They`re just really stretched.
MENENDEZ: Michael, that`s the online chatter, but then you also have elected Republicans going after DOJ basically cutting and pasting their favorite lines from Trump`s statement into their own Twitter feeds. My question is, are they as loyal as their public statements would lead us to believe?
MICHAEL STEELE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Where else are they going to go? Whenever they`ve shown a loyalty to anything other than Donald Trump, not to the party itself, not to the country, not to it`s all members of the caucus. I give you Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger. So, that loyalty is only -- it`s a one way street. Kevin McCarthy will find that out soon enough. And the reality of it is, there is a price to be paid for that. And that price is what we see right now.
The absence of leadership, Alicia, is damning. Liz Cheney, you know, hearken to that point at the beginning of the January 6 Committee where the stain of all of this will linger beyond Trump. In fact, this is less than less about Trump now because the infection has so fully moved inside the bloodstream of the party. Trump is not the animating character any longer. And so, to the, to the point --
MENENDEZ: Well, I got to -- I got to -- go ahead, Michael.
STEELE: Go ahead. No, I was going to say, just to the point, assume they`re all -- that it`s all dangerous, that they`re all dangerous until proven otherwise because what else do you have to go on?
MENENDEZ: Well, that`s why I thought it was particularly interesting that you had DeSantis getting on board this train, right? That the person who is seen as the most likely 2024 contender, whether Trump runs or not, felt that he had to come to Trump`s defense on this, Michael.
STEELE: Yes, because he had nowhere else to go. The last thing he needs is all those Florida Republicans yipping at his ankles over Donald Trump. And so, he placates in this goes again to the base problem. They placate instead of being the leaders and saying, no, this is not what we do here. We are a party about the rule of law, you know. So, right now, it`s just all a lie. It`s hypocrisy.
But they will play to that point because they don`t want to be on the wrong side of Trump. It is going to be a study in culture and political science for quite some time to come to understand exactly what it is this man has on these people to make them act so damn stupid.
[20:30:25]
MENENDEZ: Well, perhaps to that point, Ryan, I wonder what you have heard from your sources about this breaking news about Congressman Scott Perry`s cell phone being seized by the FBI today.
REILLY: I mean, it`s significant. And you got to remember the role that he played, you know, in terms of -- in terms of this back channel to try to put in these fake electors in the people that he put in to touch with. So, he is kind of at the center of this investigation. But just real quickly, broadly, on the broader FBI point. I do feel like, you know, there`s that - - there`s that line in Zoolander from Will Ferrell. I feel like I`m taking crazy pills.
And whenever we have this portrayal of the FBI as some sort of liberal bastion, that`s the only thing I can sort of think of because the FBI is a conservative-leaning law enforcement organization and we`ve sort of like lost the thread on that in the past six years. It`s like, who think who goes into the FBI? It`s like, just like flashback to this idea of like, OK, go back to 2015. Are we calling the FBI this like, band of liberals then? No. It`s just -- it`s so outlandish. And I think that we`ve really lost it from where the facts actually are.
It`s a law enforcement organization. Not only that, it`s a -- it`s a more - - it`s a white, it`s an overwhelmingly white and largely male organization. Just demographics alone sort of give you the indicators in addition to all of the factors about the backgrounds of people who typically go into the FBI. It`s a conservative-leaning organization, full stop. That`s what we should sort of remember about this. So, these attacks on the FBI are just very sort of out there and outlandish.
MENENDEZ: Ryan Reilly, Michael Steele, thank you both so much.
Still to come, the FBI does its job and the right calls for a civil war. Congressman Eric Swalwell on that and what he thinks about one of his colleagues having a cell phone seized by the FBI. That`s next.
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MENENDEZ: In the 24 hours since the FBI arrived at Mar-a-Lago, we have seen an angry, sometimes even violent reaction from the right. Our next guest, member of Congress and former impeachment manager, has taken the time to respond to some of his colleagues like House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy who threatened Attorney General Merrick Garland in a statement last night.
Congressman Eric Swalwell of California called out McCarthy on Twitter, "Says current member refusing to cooperate with the January 6 Committee investigation." And Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California joins me now. Congressman, what do you think largely about the right-wing reaction as a whole to the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago?
REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): Good evening, Alicia. It`s very clear that Republicans have recognized that they can no longer win elections with votes. And so, they`re leaning in hard to try and win elections with violence. And they`re fomenting that violence right now with the threats they`re making against the Attorney General with the online chatter that you continue to see with the failure to even condemn it on their side. And I see it my own social media channels where the threats have escalated since Donald Trump`s residence was searched.
And this is who they are now. They are a chaos party. Chaos is arming to the teeth most Americans with AR-15 and letting our children live in fear. Chaos is January 6. Chaos is government-mandated pregnancies. Chaos is forcing Americans to spend $14,000 a year on insulin to just own the libs. And chaos is the leaders of the party arguing that we need to defund the FBI. They don`t want community. They want chaos. And that`s what the fallout is going to be from the search.
MENENDEZ: I have to ask you, as a former manager for Donald Trump`s second impeachment, how vulnerable Do you think he is here?
SWALWELL: Incredibly vulnerable, because this was a Donald Trump-appointed FBI director, an independent judge that looked at the evidence. And by the way, Alicia, this crowd for years said lock her up with respect to Hillary Clinton for what they thought were the mishandling of classified information. They wanted her to go to prison. All that happened here, if we`re talking about classified information, is it looked like it was just taken out of his residence. Who knows what`s going to happen in the future?
But if that`s the worst thing that happens to Donald Trump, it seems like they`re getting all worked up for a lot of things. But what`s really concerning and I think sad when you take a beat and step back, is that when we saw that Donald Trump`s residence was searched, no one said, oh my God, that`s the last thing I ever thought would happen. Instead, most Americans speculated over which crimes the President`s resident was being searched for, which just kind of level sets you for what he has brought to America.
And what we`re seeing now with this surge in the crescendo of accountability and justice is finally the rule of law seems to be prevailing, and the rule of cronyism which we saw under Donald Trump is in the rearview mirror.
MENENDEZ: Speaking of, Congressman, your reaction to the news tonight that the FBI has seized a cell phone belonging to your colleague, Republican Congressman Scott Perry.
SWALWELL: It looks like this may have been the result of the work that the January 6 Committee, you know, a bipartisan committee that has been informed by almost entirely Republican witnesses is doing. And Perry, from the evidence that we`ve seen, you know, was part of an effort that Donald Trump was also a part of to try and overturn an election back in 2020 and that they were plotting a coup, that there was a plan to send fake electors to try and, you know, trick, you know, state legislatures or to even have the Congress send back, you know, the certified electors so that the states could resend new electors.
[20:40:31]
And so, you know, again, I trust this Attorney General. I trust Donald Trump`s appointed FBI director. They know that Scott Perry and Donald Trump should be treated no worse than any other criminal defendant, but certainly know better.
But this new take that we`ve seen from Elise Stefanik, and Donald Trump, and even Scott Perry in his statement today, how could they possibly have searched a member of Congress`s phone or how could they have you ever gone to a former presidents home? Or if they could do this to a former president, they could do this to anyone. They`re kind of missing the point that they should do this to anyone if they have broken the law and there`s probable cause. You`re not above the law. You`re not an elite. You`re not untouchable. And so, it`s nice to see that the rule of law has returned.
MENENDEZ: Not only are they missing the point, you have the RNC actively trying to fundraise off of what happened yesterday. I do have to ask you, sir, to this cornucopia of potential crimes. Today, a federal appeals court ruled that the House could get access to Donald Trump`s tax returns. I understand there`s going to be some legal back and forth there, but more broadly, your reaction to that decision?
SWALWELL: Well, first and foremost, a consciousness of guilt from Donald Trump that he wouldn`t turn them over, right? Why would he after every president before him would turn him over wouldn`t do so? But again, this shows that Congress, the first -- let you know, the first branch of government, article one, is able to assert its subpoena power, and that subpoena power must mean something.
So, justice is coming, you know, for the corrupt. And I am confident that when all is said and done, that the rule of law is going to prevail, and that community is going to trump over chaos, which is where this MAGA Republican Party wants to take the country.
MENENDEZ: Congressman Eric Swalwell, as always, thank you so much.
Coming up, as the DOJ closes in on Donald Trump, the January 6 Committee plows forward with its own investigation. The Trump cabinet officials testified today. That`s next.
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MENENDEZ: Today, 24 hours after the FBI executed a search warrant at the Florida home of the ex-president, the FBI agents seize the cell phone of Republican Congressman Scott Perry of Pennsylvania who aided Trump and his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Congressman Perry is the guy who introduced Trump to Jeffrey Clark, the DOJ official who drafted letters to advance the coup and tried to replace his own boss, the acting Attorney General.
Meanwhile, even though the January 6 Committee has no hearing scheduled until September, that`s a few weeks out, they heard from two witnesses today, Trump`s Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Pennsylvania Republican gubernatorial candidate Doug Mastriano. While we do not yet have any details on the Pompeo interview, NBC News learned that Mastriano who was subpoenaed to testify and did his interview after just 15 minutes, refusing to answer any questions.
The DOJ has also called several high-ranking Trump administration officials to testify. Last week, Trump White House Counsel Pat Cipollone and his deputy Patrick Philbin were both subpoenaed to appear before a DOJ grand jury. In July, both Marc Short, Mike Pence as Chief of Staff, and Greg Jacob, Pence`s legal counsel, also testified for a grand jury.
Then there is former aide to Trump Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, Cassidy Hutchinson, who was cooperating with the DOJ as well. In Fulton County, Georgia, Rudy Giuliani, Trump`s personal lawyer was ordered to appear before a grand jury investigating election interference next week, though, now he is trying to delay his testimony for health reasons.
And we already knew that Trump`s current legal team is in talks with the DOJ. But then last night, we got the enormous news of the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago which of course, puts the investigation in a whole new light. We`re going to discuss the ramifications of that search, what Congress can possibly do to disqualify Trump from ever running for office again next.
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MENENDEZ: In many ways, it feels like the walls are closing in on Donald Trump from the January 6 Committee`s investigation, which continues to interview high-profile witnesses and obtain documents, to today`s unanimous ruling by a federal appeals court the House Ways and Means Committee can obtain Trump`s tax returns from the IRS. To this latest action by the Department of Justice or just executed a search warrant on Trump`s Mar-a- Lago residents.
Rick Hasen is a professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Law. He`s the director of UCLA`s Safeguarding Democracy Project, and the founder of Election Law Blog where he recently wrote about the chances of Trump being disqualified from running in 2024 if he illegally kept classified documents.
Rick, thank you so much for being with us tonight. Can you explain to us this federal statute that Trump could have violated here if he withheld classified documents? There has been a lot of buzz about this idea that could prevent him from a second presidential bid. I know that you have thrown some cold water on that.
RICK HASEN, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, LOS ANGELES SCHOOL OF LAW: Sure. And I`m not the only one who`s thrown cold water. So, there`s a federal statute. It`s 18 USC 2071 and it basically says, if you do certain things to classify documents, like conceal them or destroy them, you could face a fine or up to three years in jail. And then there`s another part that says, you`re disqualified from running for federal office or serving in federal office.
And so, some have pointed to that and said, well, wouldn`t that disqualify Trump for running for president. But the problem is, the qualifications for running for president appear in the United States Constitution. You have to be 35 years old, born in the United States, and you can`t really, according to the Supreme Court, add to those qualifications.
So, even if Trump were convicted of this crime, he wouldn`t legally be barred from running for president or serving as president again.
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MENENDEZ: Isn`t there also -- and you`ll correct me if I`m wrong because you`re a law professor and I`m just someone who took the LSAT and decided not to go to law school, that even -- before you even get there, you would have to have a Republican who was running against him who wanted to challenge whether or not he was eligible to run, right?
So, first, there would have to be that piece. And it seems like we`re living in a moment where even that seems questionable.
HASEN: Well, you know, someone could be a Republican and they could decide to -- Liz Cheney could decide to run for president and raise a challenge. So, if there`s a standing issue, I think that standing issue could be solved. But there is a path to getting a Donald Trump disqualified from running for president and it doesn`t relate to him, allegedly taking classified documents, but instead for fomenting insurrection.
Part of the 14th Amendment section three says you could be disqualified from serving as president if you participated in insurrection. It wouldn`t be easy but Congress could pass the statute now. It could lead to a court determination that Trump is ineligible to serve as president. And so, there`s a path but it doesn`t run through Mar-a-Lago.
MENENDEZ: According to The Washington Post, "On Tuesday, a lawyer for Trump said the agents who brought the court approved Warren to Mar-a-Lago a day earlier took about 12 more boxes after conducting their search." I wonder if the volume just the sheer volume of these documents surprises you, particularly after Trump handed over what we know was 15 boxes earlier this year.
HASEN: Well, it makes me wonder what`s in those boxes if he knew that he was in potential legal jeopardy and decided it was worth holding on to them. And so, it`s worth making this point that even if taking classified documents and potentially being convicted for doing that wouldn`t be a legal impediment to run for president, it could certainly be a political impediment.
And while Trump has the support of his base, running as a convicted felon would not be, you know, the path that most people would choose if they wanted to run for president.
MENENDEZ: Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Scott Perry`s phone was seized today by the FBI. Your sense of the significance of that.
HASEN: So, that seems much more related to the January 6 events. Perry allegedly was one of the people working -- in Congress working closest with Trump on this scheme to try to subvert the 2020 election to try to find these fake electors or, or have the vice president stop the counting of electoral college votes. And so, it`s hard to see why they would be seizing this phone unless they were looking very closely at Trump and those around him to see if potential crimes like obstructing the official proceeding of counting Electoral College votes were not on the table by DOJ.
The fact that they`re doing these high-profile things altogether shows that DOJ is focused on this. They know they`re going to face political heat. This is I think a major escalation of what DOJ is planning on doing.
MENENDEZ: Do you think these latest developments, the Mar-a-Lago search warrant, high profile Trump administration officials going before the DOJ, do you think it all makes it more likely the Trump loyalists will testify that there`s some type of momentum shift that is happening in this moment?
HASEN: Well, you know, what you see right now is a circling of the wagons on the Trump side. I think people recognize that Merrick Garland probably has, you know, a lot more willingness to go forward on this. And so, I think you`re going to see a hardening of positions on both sides. But the legal process is going to take what -- path that it takes. And probably after the Midterms, we`ll have a good sense of whether or not they`re going to be criminal charges filed against Donald Trump.
MENENDEZ: I recognize I`m about to ask you a question that is pretty impossible to answer. But given that this is your area of interest, I do wonder what you think the past 48 hours means for American democracy?
HASEN: Well, to me, it`s a somewhat of a hopeful sign, because one of the things that I`ve worried about is that Donald Trump tried to steal an election in 2020. And so far, not only is he not paid consequences, he`s still the kingmaker among Republicans when it comes to the primaries, and he could run again. So, I think anything that holds them accountable for potential violations of the law is a step forward in terms of protecting American democracy.
MENENDEZ: I do want to ask you quickly. There`s the legal piece of this, there`s also just the political ether piece of this. If he is in fact charged with crime, do you think it makes it harder for him to run and for people to continue to support him?
HASEN: Well, there are diehard Trump supporters who will, you know -- what did he say, that someone -- he could be shooting someone on Fifth Avenue and people would follow him? But that`s not everybody. I think it would be a much harder path for him should he face an actual indictment or even conviction.
MENENDEZ: Someone said yesterday only two dozen people showing up outside of his residence to protest, more of a get-together than a rally. Rick Hasen, as always, thank you so much.
That is it for ALL IN on this Tuesday night. "MSNBC PRIME" starts right now with my friend Ali Velshi. Hi, Ali!