Summary
Fox News tries to negatively spin the strong jobs report. Sen. Kyrsten Sinema agrees to deal on Inflation Reduction Act. FBI Director Christopher Wray warns of crazy rise in political violence. The Justice Department is cranking its way through the hundreds of January 6th rioters arrested and charged in the wake of the attack. When Donald Trump staged a coup, Liz Cheney became one of his most vocal critics, and now she`s trailing her election denying opponent by double digits in this month`s Republican primary in Wyoming.
Transcript
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: The celebration, we`re going to play a little bit of that celebration, after Kansas voters -- and not just Democrats, Democrats, Republicans, and Independents got together to take down this law.
Sorry, Alito, you had a bad week because they had a good one. Joe Walsh, David Korn, thank you both very much. That is tonight`s "REIDOUT". Happy weekend. ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEHDI HASAN, MSNBC HOST (voiceover): Tonight, on ALL IN.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, there are more people working in America than before the pandemic began. In fact, there are more people working in America than any point in American history.
HASAN: The Biden boom, a jobs report so strong even Fox can`t deny it.
MARIA BARTIROMO, HOST, FOX BUSINESS NETWORK: This is a blockbuster report. This is much higher than anybody was expecting.
HASAN: Tonight, the string of victories for the Biden administration, and the big win possibly still to come.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): We`re actually helping the American people instead of just playing political games.
HASAN: Then, the political payoff for doing the right thing.
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I`ve been very clear. I think he`s guilty of the most serious dereliction of duty of any president in our nation`s history.
HASAN: Reports of a quiet Republican effort to try and save Liz Cheney`s seat. Will it work?
Plus, the junior podcaster from Texas and his performative outrage.
And a $50 million judgment against Alex Jones for his Sandy Hook lies when ALL IN starts right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN (on camera): Good evening from Washington DC. I`m Mehdi Hasan in for Chris Hayes. So, it`s Friday morning, the first Friday of the month of August, and you are a producer of Fox. The country is awaiting the July jobs report. And even the White House has admitted that the numbers are going to be bad. Of course, this is the story you go big on. The jobs report is good to be lousy. Joe Biden`s economy is in the gutter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The White House is already lowering expectations for the July jobs report due out later today.
DR. KEVIN ROBERTS, PRESIDENT, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: The American economy is in terrible shape. Unfortunately, while you know I understand the political consequences of that for the President, we ought to lament that because as Americans, we really want everyone to flourish. That job report is an indicator that America is really not flourishing.
WILL CAIN, CONTRIBUTOR, FOX NEWS: There`s some expectation that the jobs report will come in around 150,000 new jobs added which is much less than half a million jobs they`ve been added over the last several months.
Brian Kilmeade, Host, Fox News: Jobless claims were up yesterday above predictions which they think maybe the jobs report, adding jobs might not be as high.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: But then, 8:30 a.m. rolls around, and the report comes out. And it is way better than expected. In fact, more than doubled the number of jobs that economists predicted. U.S. employers added 528,000 new jobs in July for the 19th straight month of positive jobs growth. The economy has now regained all of the jobs that were lost during the Trump administration at the start of the pandemic. You can see that dramatic plunge in early 2020 on this graph.
And there were other positive signs as well. The unemployment rate fell to 3.5 percent. And Americans have seen a 5.2 percent increase in their average earnings over the past year. All of this is new, strong evidence that the country has not entered a recession. But if you work at Fox, and you just spent the morning telling your audience that the report was going to be terrible, and the economy is in shambles, what do you do? Well, apparently you find a way to spin a really good jobs report into bad news.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARTIROMO: We have the good news and the bad news here. First, the top line number, the headline here, this is a blockbuster report. This is much higher than anybody was expecting.
The bad news, this ensures that we are going to see a Federal Reserve that stays as aggressive as ever. The bad news is that the Federal Reserve will continue raising interest rates aggressively. That`s going to make our borrowing much more expensive and holding debt much more expensive.
CHARLES PAYNE, HOST, FOX BUSINESS NETWORK: I think it`s probably the more important thing is participation. The unemployment rate went to 3.5 percent from 3.6 but participation actually went down. It`s still somewhat amazing to me that we have not gotten back up to the same level of participation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Fox was so committed to this bit that they even criticize the White House for getting the number wrong. Take a look at that banner on screen. White House misses forecast on lower July jobs growth. I mean, yes, they missed it, but only because the report was so much better than anticipated. They missed it in a good way.
Fox of course has also really, really been pushing the idea that we are in a recession. And we can argue over technical definitions, but I`m sorry, it is very hard to say that we are in a recession when companies in America hired more than half a million people in the single month. Sure, the American economy still has some problems, but it`s also doing quite well.
Now, Fox cannot handle America doing well because that means that Joe Biden and the Democrats are doing well. They are pro-America patriots only when Republicans are in charge of America. Democratic Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia called them out on this the other day live on air.
[20:05:22]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS FAULKNER, HOST, FOX NEWS: You got a president --
MANCHIN: The election? So, what happens? I am not going to make a statement on that.
FAULKNER: -- who`s approval rating is like as low as Congress`.
MANCHIN: Well, can`t we all do something great? Are you afraid --
FAULKNER: I mean, no offense, but you know that when you get into the 30s, no one is that popular and that`s this president.
MANCHIN: Harris, are scared we`re going to do something good or help our country and someone might take credit for it?
FAULKNER: I`m, of course, not. My father served. Are you kidding? Service is in the Bible.
MANCHIN: Well, it sounds like you are.
FAULKNER: That`s what we do. We serve our fellow man and woman. Of course.
MANCHIN: That`s exactly --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: My father served. I found myself cheering for Joe Manchin for the first time after he trolled Fox like that. But Manchin is on a roll at the moment. He made this massive $700 billion deal that if it passes would do a lot of good on climate on health care. And Manchin and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer also now -- also now have their final holdout, Arizona Senator Kyrsten Sinema on board.
They did have to make some changes to get her approval, including removing a provision that would have limited the preferential tax treatment of income treated -- of income earned by some wealthy hedge fund managers and private equity executives, sometimes called the carried interest loophole. Thank you, Senator Sinema.
Still, Democrats replaced that with a new one percent excise tax that companies would have to pay on the amount of stock that they repurchase, which is a good thing that will raise more money and ensure that the package still reduce the federal deficit by as much as $300 billion, the same amount of Democrats aim for with the original deal.
And if this deal goes through the House plans to vote on it a week from today, it`ll cap off a string of recent triumphs for Joe Biden and the Democrats. Just in the past week, we saw the killing of al Qaeda leader I`m al-Zawahiri, a major legislative achievement with the Chips Bill, investing billions in semiconductor manufacturing and scientific research, a huge win for abortion rights in Kansas, and these great jobs numbers today.
So, should the White House, should Democrats dare to believe that they could make it through the November Midterms with a better outcome than expected? Joining me now is Stephanie Kelton, a former chief economist for the Senate Banking Committee, as well as a former economic adviser to Bernie Sanders` 2016 and 2020 presidential campaigns. And Julian Castro, former mayor of San Antonio, Texas, former Secretary of Housing and Urban Development under President Obama. Thank you both.
Stephanie, let me start with you. Put these jobs numbers in context, how good are they? How big are they?
STEPHANIE KELTON, FORMER CHIEF ECONOMIST, SENATE BANKING COMMITTEE: They`re huge. They blindsided virtually everyone as you said in your opening, Mehdi. We didn`t see this coming. Economists, analysts, Wall Street forecasters, everybody missed this one. This was a blockbuster number 528,000 jobs, and job revisions to the previous two months. So, the reports that we got last month and the month before are being revised upwards.
So, we have some very, very good news when it comes to, you know, the labor market. This is broad base. I mean, it`s everything from leisure and hospitality, to manufacturing and construction, and government jobs. It`s business and it is across the whole of our economy. We are seeing extreme robust job creation and resilience in the labor market.
HASAN: So, Julian, President Biden spoke today about how hard it is for some Americans to see and feel the good in this jobs report because he conceded there is inflation that`s still being dealt with. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I know people will hear today`s extraordinary jobs report and say they don`t see it, they don`t feel it in their own lives. I know how hard it is. I know it`s hard to feel good about job creation when you already have a job and you`re dealing with rising prices, food, and gas, and so much more. I get it. That`s why I`m doing everything in my power to lower the cost for families.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Julian, in the long run, is inflation going to overshadow these great jobs numbers?
JULIAN CASTRO, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT: Well, Mehdi, I mean, there`s no question that people feel that on a daily basis. At the same time, gas prices have been falling for several weeks now. I think something like 50 days in a row. These are fantastic jobs numbers. And so what you saw the President doing there was something that he has to do which is not only to celebrate the progress that we`re making on the economy, and there is a lot of progress, 3.5 percent unemployment rate, the lowest it`s been measured in 50 years, nine and a half million jobs created under this administration, but also recognize the challenge, the difficulty that still exists for American families.
And he told, I thought, a story that people could relate to of as a young man sitting at the dinner table with his parents as they talked about how they were going to afford the next month`s rent or food. And a lot of people can relate to that conversation. So, he did both of those things that he needs to do to take credit for the good stuff, the progress, but also to make sure that people who are still struggling out there understand that they have a president that hasn`t forgotten about them, and is going to keep working to make things better for them.
[20:10:33]
HASAN: Stephanie, two quarters of negative growth traditionally means recession, half a million jobs in a month traditionally means not a recession. Are we in a recession?
KELTON: Well, Mehdi, they`re very difficult to call in real time. We usually don`t know we are in a recession until months, sometimes even a year or more after we`ve entered one. I have to say you -- you`re going to find it pretty hard for me to come out and tell you that we`re in a recession at the moment given the job numbers that we just saw today.
It`s a mixed picture. There`s no question that you can look for data points in this economy and you can spot signs of weakness. No question. But job numbers like the kind that we saw today send, I think, a pretty strong signal that the consumer hasn`t retrenched. This is what you`re watching for. You`re watching for consumers to start closing up their wallets and pocketbooks and spending less and then businesses see customers disappearing. And that`s where you began to see signs of trouble.
This is a good thing. When people get jobs, when they find jobs, and they have been come to spend, it`s a good way to support an economic recovery. So, it gets more difficult to buy into the recession narrative despite that sort of conventional rule of thumb about two consecutive quarters.
HASAN: Julian, some Democrats have been dodging the question of whether Joe Biden should run again. Does this week of success, not just the jobs report, but the Zawahiri killing, the CHIP spilled a PAC Bill. Does this put some of those concerns about his reelection prospects to rest or are there more fundamental issues that he still has to deal with?
CASTRO: Well, I mean, I think the fundamental issue is that you have Midterm elections -- if we`re just talking politically, you have midterm elections that are coming up in just a few months. And so, I think everybody`s focus is on those Midterms. And people say, you know, nothing succeeds like success. And this last week or so has been a week of real success for the President and for Democrats whether you`re talking about this news on the economy, or the fact that he`s going to get big legislation done.
What happened in Kansas that is showing that the Democratic base out there is motivated on the abortion issue, and he`s going to take that to the polls in November very likely, things are looking a lot better right now than they were even just a couple of weeks ago.
HASAN: Julian, quick last question. We`re almost out of time. I got to ask you, if you were managing the Democrats campaign in November, would you be running top most on abortion rights or on Republican extremism or on jobs and the economy?
CASTRO: I`d be running on Republican extremism as expressed by abortion, but also January 6, and other things. They`ve shown themselves to be far outside the mainstream.
HASAN: Julian Castro, Stephanie Kelton, thank you both for your time. I appreciate your analysis.
Coming up, the director of the FBI issues a new warning about far-right extremism. Texas podcaster Ted Cruz throws a tantrum. The dangers of the current Republican rhetoric. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:15:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTOPHER WRAY, DIRECTOR, FBI: I understand that passions run high especially on an issue like abortion, but they`re just way too many people who seemed to think that it -- that that justifies engaging in violence and destruction of property and threats of violence. You mentioned Molotov cocktails. I feel like every day I`m getting briefed on somebody throwing a Molotov cocktail at someone for some issue. It`s crazy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: That was FBI director Christopher Wray warning about a spike that the FBI is seeing and politically motivated violence in this country. But not everyone seemed to be focused on the real danger of rising political violence in this country. Podcaster slash Senator Ted Cruz was allowed in the hearing because he is a United States senator, and he used his time to remove parts of his cowboy costume and pretend to be outraged over the FBI`s focused on violent domestic extremists.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): Yesterday, it was reported that Project Veritas had obtained a copy of an FBI training material which listed various symbols and themes which in the FBI`s estimation, were indicative of, "militia violence extremism." Also included on this as a text and I was particularly struck is the Gonzales battle flag, "come and take it," as indicative of being a violent extremist militia. Well, I will self-report right now. That every day in the Senate I wear my boots that have the Gonzalez battle flag on the back of it. (END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Beyond the pole-clutching from all boots, no cattle Republicans like Ted Cruz, you can tell a nerve has been struck. Republicans don`t particularly like being lumped in with every extremist group and domestic terrorist. And hey, welcome to my world. Hey, conservatives, you might actually find some sympathy from this Muslim guy after the last 20-plus years that you put my community through. Vague indications of extremism, accusations of collective guilt, sound familiar, Ted?
[20:20:25]
But let`s not take this too far. It`s not like there`s a Gitmo for January 6 rioters. Although, wait, there was this booth at CPAC in Texas today where you`re meant to watch a MAGA hat wearing prisoner cry as you listen to a headset playing testimony of the people arrested for rioting on January 6. You know, an example of the very right wing political violence that Director Wray has been trying to warn us about.
Asha Rangappa is a former Special Agent in the New York division of the FBI specializing in counterintelligence investigations, as well as an editor at the Just Security blog. And she joins me now. Asha, thanks for coming on the show. The director of the FBI called politically motivated violence "almost a 365 day phenomenon." How does that compare to your time in the FBI and how concerned are you should we be?
ASHA RANGAPPA, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, Mehdi, thanks -- thank you for having me on. I`m very concerned. And this is a shift, right? I mean, in my time at the FBI, the terrorism threat was international terrorism. It was al-Qaeda, it was ISIS. And that`s where the FBI`s resources were focused. Last year, the National Security Council released a domestic -- a strategy to counter domestic terrorism. And it identified the growing threat of domestic terrorism and specifically two different types of domestic terrorism. One is racial -- racially motivated extremist violence, and the other is militia extremist violence. And both of these are on the rise.
And so what the FBI is doing is dovetailing with that national strategy and they`re coordinating with other intelligence partners. And that document which Ted Cruz was pointing to, is really a descriptive document about specifically militia violent extremists and what they have observed with anti-government and anti-law enforcement groups and how they express their shared ideology through these symbols, which groups are going to do, terrorist groups are going to do.
Importantly, at the top of that document behind him, it says that they should not independently be used to, you know, assess that someone is engaged in illegal activity.
HASAN: Well, thank you for putting that in context. I`m the last person who`s going to defend the FBI`s handling of any terrorist threats, given what happened to a lot of Muslims in America over the last 20 years. But I find it ironic that conservatives are kind of gnashing and wailing right now. We have this weird scenario, where every time the FBI or the DHS tries to warn about the threat from right-wing domestic terrorism, conservatives, Republicans say were being targeted. Well, no, only if you`re admitting to being domestic terrorist. There`s a weird conflation going on by the right.
RANGAPPA: Well, unfortunately, Mehdi, this is increasingly their base that they are appealing to. I mean, not all of them are terrorists, but clearly if they`re sympathetic to the people who attack the Capitol and wanted to kill lawmakers and hang the Vice President which they explicitly are -- they feel like it`s a hoax to be, you know, even investigating it -- then they are appealing to that subset of people.
And I`ve said since January 6, 2021, that we basically have a domestic terror movement in this country that has representation in Congress. And I think imagine maybe if after 9/11 you had Congress people expressing sympathy for them, listening to, you know, detainees at Guantanamo crying, you know, and kind of creating a narrative around that, that that should be something that you know, should be -- their actions should be celebrated.
HASAN: I mean, Paul Gosar, congressman from Arizona wears a wristband with that insurrectionist name on it, but yes, I can`t imagine a 9/11 comparison. Asha there`s an outlandish story that`s been making the rounds in MAGA land that was repeated by a guest on Steve Bannon`s show at CPAC today. It`s about the IRS, which like many federal agencies, have law enforcement division. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re stalking the IRS with guns and ammo. Why are they doing this? To go after -- well, we`re going to go after corporations in the -- in the Caymans. That`s like six people, right? You got 90,000 people. You know why? They`re going to come after you. They`re going to come after you. They`re going to come after everybody back there. They`re going to weaponize the IRS, use the government to intimidate every single Trump supporter and MAGA supporter in America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Asha, as a former law enforcement agent, what do you think when you hear people basically stoking untrue paranoia like that? Where does that lead?
[20:25:00]
RANGAPPA: Well, it leads to political violence. I mean, what he`s setting up there is a dichotomy between -- and he`s explicitly said between Trump supporters and the government. So, the government is going to come after you if you`re a Trump supporter. And this is kind of also in line with what I mentioned before about the militia violent extremists who based their ideology in, you know, as anti-government, anti-law enforcement.
It reminds me maybe of a while ago, this is several decades ago, but when the NRA started adopting this narrative as well, and they had a poster of FBI SWAT agents in crosshairs that actually made George HW Bush renounced his life membership from the NRA, but that`s what they`re appealing to is this idea that the government can`t be trusted. Law enforcement can`t be trusted. And it does feed into the narrative that justifies what happened on January 6.
HASAN: It really is 90s paranoia on steroids and just talking of right wing extremists. Last quick question, I want to ask you about a verdict that came down a few hours ago for punitive damages in the Alex Jones trial, it was a pretty astonishing result as the judge read it. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYA GUERRA GAMBLE, JUDGE, TEXAS 459TH DISTRICT COURT: Question number one, $4,200,000. Question number two, $20,500,000. Question number three, $20,500,000. All right, this question is addressed to my jury. Is this your verdict, so say, each and all of you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: That`s $45.2 million awarded against Alex Jones for his shameful lies about Sandy Hook. Your reaction?
RANGAPPA: Well, I think that it`s a notable damages award. I mean, what they were asking for there -- so the jury had already awarded what are called compensatory damages. This is for the pain and suffering that was -- that was experienced by the plaintiffs in this case because of his actions. The second part, the $45 million is punitive damages. This is about punishing the defendant for his conduct, you know, making him feel the pinch to create a deterrent for him and future --0 other people in the future, to not engage in the same conduct.
And so, you know, in that sense, they are sending a message. And I should note that he has a couple of other lawsuits still coming up. So, these kinds of damages might pile up on top of that.
HASAN: Yes, there are. It`s Connecticut next. Good luck, Alex Jones. Asha Rangappa, thank you for your time tonight. I appreciate it.
RANGAPPA: Thank you.
HASAN: Still to come, new reports indicate the DOJ could be, might be closing in on Donald J. Trump, but the man keeps on scheming. How much trouble could he really be in? That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:30:00]
HASAN: The Justice Department is cranking its way through the hundreds of January 6th rioters arrested and charged in the wake of the attack. Today, one writer who wore a jacket with his name, the name of his company and his company phone number on it pleaded guilty to destroying government property. He could face up to eight months in jail.
At least 884 people have been charged in connection with January the 6th, and a big one may be on the horizon.
USA Today reports that lawyers for Donald Trump "have been in contact with Justice Department officials in an apparent attempt to block access to conversations with his former top aides."
Trump has also repeatedly -- reportedly, excuse me, ignored advice to cut off contact with his former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. After aides to Meadows Cassidy Hutchinson provided stunning testimony to the January 6th committee potentially singling out Meadows as a key witness in the probe against the ex- president.
Quinta Jurecic is a senior editor of the Lawfare Blog where she wrote today about the lessons and limits of the January 6 committee. Quinta, thanks for coming on the show. The committee and the DOJ are running almost in parallel. But certainly at times on intersecting tracks. Which investigation do you think will ultimately have the biggest impact?
QUINTA JURECIC, SENIOR EDITOR, LAWFARE BLOG: I think it`s a question of understanding that, you know, these are really investigations that are doing different things. Then, January 6 committee, of course, doesn`t have the power to bring an indictment. They don`t bring a criminal trial.
What they`re doing really is more of kind of telling the story of what happened on January 6th, building a public sort of moral and political case against Donald Trump, and they`re certainly pushing the Justice Department on the criminal aspect as well.
And what the Justice Department is doing is deciding whether to bring those higher level criminal cases. And as you say, pushing forward with these hundreds and hundreds of lower level charges and some significant charges of seditious conspiracy against the people who are actually rioting in the capitol that day.
HASAN: And Quinta, you wrote about the committee`s limits, the one-six committee`s limits, particularly that "The January 6, investigators must assume that their work has a hard deadline of January 2023. And because of that, there are surely difficult trade-offs being made around what to prioritize in the limited time that remains to finish this work."
Do you think that limited time, the deadline could prevent us from getting a full accounting of the crimes committed around the Capitol riot?
[20:35:02]
JURECIC: As my colleague and I Molly Reynolds wrote in that piece, the committee has always known about that deadline. There`s always been that possibility very likelihood that Republicans would take control of the House and not choose to renew the committee in the new -- the new Congress.
So, I think that they have been working with that in mind. That said, it`s certainly true that, you know, they`ve said a lot about how these hearings have surfaced new evidence, we saw the testimony of Cassidy Hutchinson, the testimony of Pat Cipollone following Hutchinson`s testimony, the committee has said that new people are coming in and testifying.
So, even as we see them kind of gathering momentum, it`s important to keep in mind, they really only have a few months left before they have to put out this public report.
And so, as impressive as their work has been, I do think it`s worth keeping in mind that they`re really about to run up against a wall.
HASAN: So, what significance do you see in Trump`s lawyers talking directly to the DOJ? Is this a prelude to something? Or are we making a big deal out of a routine procedure?
JURECIC: So, I`d certainly caution viewers not to get too excited. We saw reports like these during the Mueller investigation, and of course --
HASAN: Yes, we do.
JURECIC: -- do not result in any charges against Donald Trump. But I think it is a reflection of how in recent weeks, we have seen a lot of news reports that suggest that the Justice Department investigation is heating up. We saw reports that White House Counsel Pat Cipollone, his deputy Pat Philbin, are testifying before a federal grand jury. There are a lot of indications that the department is at the very least, looking very seriously and closely at Trump`s personal role in ginning up the violence on January 6th and the events ahead of it.
So, I think this new reporting reflects that you know, Trump like everyone else, he reads the news, his lawyers probably have heard what`s going on. And as lawyers do, they`re taking steps to try to defend their client.
HASAN: Last quick question, if we do get more public hearings out of the one-six committee, what would you want to hear from them? What would you want to prioritize in them?
JURECIC: So, we`re expecting to hear more from them in September. They have promised that. I think that they have left a great deal open. They`ve done an enormous amount in sketching out the sort of the broad strokes of what happened on January 6th. And Trump`s personal culpability.
I personally think that one of the big open questions that we have has to do with whether or not there was any knowledge or coordination between the Trump camp and the White House, and the folks on the ground on January 6th like the Oath Keepers, like the Proud Boys, that strikes me as something that you know, if the committee brings to light any new evidence in that, that that could be potentially very groundbreaking.
HASAN: Indeed, it could be. Quinta Jurecic, thank you so much for your time and for your reporting. Appreciate it.
JURECIC: Thank you.
HASAN: Still ahead, one of the most notorious Republicans in modern American politics is doing the right thing? How should we react to that? That debate, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:40:00]
HASAN: In 2020, Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming won the Republican primary there by almost 50 points. Then Donald Trump staged a coup, Cheney became one of his most vocal critics, and now she`s trailing her election denying opponent by double digits in this month`s Republican primary in Wyoming.
Unlike most of her Republican colleagues in the House, since January the 6th 2021, Cheney has consistently spoken out against Trump as a unique threat to our democracy.
And after she agreed to become the vice chair of the committee investigating January the 6th, she solidified her position as something of a Republican pariah.
But it seems as though some of the party establishment may have changed their minds. Axios reporting that a handful of Republican operatives are quietly working to boost Cheney in her long shot primary, signaling that there is in fact an appetite among a few oligarch (PH) Republicans to try and move on from Donald Trump.
But this is still an uphill battle for Cheney. So this week, she brought out perhaps her most high profile and loyal supporter to make the case in an ad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In our nation`s 246 year history, there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump. He tried to steal the last election using lies and violence to keep himself in power after the voters had rejected him.
He is a coward. A real man wouldn`t lie to his supporters. He lost his election, and he lost big. I know it, he knows it and deep down I think most Republicans know it.
Lynne and I are so proud of Liz for standing up for the truth, doing what`s right, honoring her oath to the Constitution, when so many in our party are too scared to do so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: So, watching that, I`m reminded of that great headline from the satirical site ClickHole, Heartbreaking: The worst person, you know, just made a great point.
And Dick Cheney is certainly in the running for the title of worst person in modern American politics. He is directly or indirectly responsible for some of the most cruel, shameful and lawless episodes in recent American history. And he`s never been held to account for all the deaths and the bloodshed for the Iraq war for torture, for Guantanamo Bay and countless other calamities.
[20:45:01]
You could also argue that Cheney`s catastrophic reign is possibly the most powerful and consequential vice president ever laid the groundwork for Trump`s takeover of the Republican Party, and his expansive view of unchecked executive power made the office of the president that much more dangerous once Trump occupied it.
Liz Cheney isn`t much better either. She might be even more conservative than her father, she voted with Donald Trump 93 percent of the time, she continues to oppose, among other things, abortion rights, voting rights and gun control.
And neither Cheney especially Dick has offered any kind of real public apology for their past embrace of Donald Trump both in 2016 and again in 2020.
But here`s the thing. Yes, the Cheneys have done considerable damage to America and American politics. And yes, the Cheneys are 100 percent right about the threat Trump currently poses to American democracy.
You can hold both of those thoughts in your head at the same time as I do, they`re not mutually exclusive. And consider this, if the man who was once dubbed the prince of darkness and his right wing daughter, if Dick and Liz say the Republican Party has gone off the rails, just think about how extreme that must make the GOP right now.
Coming up, I`ll ask a left-wing journalist and a former member of the Bush- Cheney reelection team, what they think about Liz Cheney and reaching out across the political divide to stop Trump, don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:50:00]
HASAN: Not that long ago, it would have been unthinkable to imagine someone on the left saying something anything nice about Liz or Dick Cheney. I still refuse to say anything nice about Dick Cheney.
But Donald Trump has for some unusual political bedfellows and the united front against the ex-president and his anti-democratic tendencies require as at least in this one instance, partnering with people you might otherwise find completely noxious, when they for once are willing to stand up for what is right.
Stuart Stevens is a senior adviser with the Lincoln project, a former member of the Bush-Cheney presidential campaigns. And the author of it was All a Lie: How the Republican Party Became Donald Trump.
And John Nichols is a National Affairs Correspondent for The Nation magazine, where he recently published a piece titled can trump oust Liz Cheney from Congress?
Thank you both for joining me. John, let me start with you. It is understandably difficult for many on the left to give Dick Cheney a man accused of war crimes credit for anything.
But as you tweeted, as someone who wants thought Dick Cheney was the greatest threat, I have to agree with him on this one. You have been a pretty vocal critic of the Cheneys in the past. Explain why in effect, you are on their side now?
JOHN NICHOLS, NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, THE NATION: Well, I choke on the notion of the phrase on their side. What I will say is that I believe that Dick Cheney should have been impeached and removed from office. So, I think he was an incredibly dangerous figure who did tremendous damage to his country into the world.
By the same token, he`s not in power right now. And his daughter, frankly, isn`t in a lot of power. But Donald Trump is very much on the march, he is part of a U.S. and in fact, global effort to move our politics toward an extreme nationalism that is incredibly dangerous, racist phobic.
And so, when he says that Donald Trump is the greatest threat to the United States at this point, in fact, I think in many ways to the world, I would have to agree with him, which is the first time I think I`ve ever said that.
HASAN: I`m with you, John. I`m with you.
Stuart, here`s my issue with Liz Cheney and Dick Cheney. You are a Never Trump Republican who wrote a very good book about how it was all a lie. You said you got it all wrong. And I appreciate that.
The Cheneys, though, backed Trump both times round. And they`ve never really apologized for doing that. In fact, Liz Cheney still supports most of the hard right GOP agenda, including opposing voting rights protection.
So, as much as I say, they`re right on this issue, and Liz Cheney`s doing a good job of the one-six committee, they still haven`t done that.
STUART STEVENS, SENIOR ADVISER, THE LINCOLN PROJECT: Well, look, Liz Cheney has said voting for Donald Trump was a mistake. And the question I would ask is, why isn`t the rest of the Republican Party doing what the Cheneys are doing?
All it is, is they`re just saying words, they`re taking a position. They`re not being asked to charge a machine gun nest or take charge of beats the way others have to defend their democracy.
And look, I think the whole point of democracy is to have these serious disagreements about policy, about whether or not this person is a good president or a terrible president.
But that`s not where we are now. There really is an autocratic movement in America that is led by the Republican Party. And I think we have to agree that the Cheneys are showing decency and courage by calling it out.
HASAN: Certainly, Liz Cheney has shown political courage, there`s no doubt about that.
John, you also tweeted "ironically, Cheney was such a disastrous vice president, the Republicans recognize he could never be considered as a 2008 presidential prospect. Unfortunately, the party made no serious effort at course correction after the Bush-Cheney debacle and that opened the way for Trump."
I do think that`s an element that gets under discussed here, Bush and Cheney, as people like Barack Obama have argued as well laid the groundwork for a Trump presidency, Trump bet big that going after Bush, going off to Iraq would be a winning issue in 2016. And he was right.
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NICHOLS: That`s right. And in fact, even Republicans came to hate Bush and Cheney. But the fact of the matter is, that when Bush and Cheney were in office, they abused that office horribly. They use that office to do lawless and irresponsible things at home and abroad, and did tremendous damage to the country.
They were not punished for that, they weren`t held to account for that via impeachment or any sort of real action as regards Congress. Nor were they held to account for that by the Republican Party. They were allowed by the Cheneys and the Bushes were allowed to become almost elder statesmen within the party.
And then, as time went on, as the party moved further and further to the right, even they got bit by it. But I think it`s really important to understand that when Donald Trump was at his, perhaps at his most dangerous in 2016, at this point where he could have been stopped, right? Republicans like Dick and Liz Cheney did not try to stop them. Most Republicans fell and got on board, and in fact they were in the culture of the party as it now exists, which is, it is more interested in winning office and holding power than it is in doing right by the country.
HASAN: Stuart, what do you make of the fact that per Axios reporting, some Republican operatives are apparently quietly backing Cheney in her primary? And can an ad from Dick Cheney change any Republican hearts and minds in this Wyoming primary?
STEVENS: Well, let`s just pause for a second how extraordinary it is what we`re talking about. We`re saying that Republican operatives are supporting a Cheney who is a member of Congress trying to get her reelected in Wyoming.
I mean, we`ve really reached a point where that`s worthy of a story. I mean, that`s extraordinary.
I have no idea what`s going to happen in this primary. I hope Liz wins. But I really don`t think that she cares that much. I don`t think that`s what she`s focused on.
And, you know, I get involved in politics, we used to say, if you only stand for reelection, you don`t stand for anything. And I kind of thought we believe that. And I agree with everything John said about what the party should have done in 16. They should have done it in December 15th when Donald Trump call for a Muslim ban.
And I think the inability to imagine Donald Trump has always helped Donald Trump, Republicans certainly. I was in that camp, couldn`t imagine a guy who talked in public about having sex with his daughter, getting nominated for the Republican nomination, and didn`t think that he could win the presidency.
And I think we`re in that same dangerous inability to imagine what will happen if Republicans are given a chance to do what they want to do to our democratic system.
HASAN: I mean, it`s interesting you mentioned the Islamophobia of Trump and the Muslim ban. Of course, this is my problem as a Muslim who has a bit of a memory. Liz Cheney pushed a lot of war on terror Islamophobic tropes in her time in office and didn`t split with Trump after the Muslim ban stuff. She backed him for several more years, and voted to reelect him.
But look, I`m glad she`s speaking out now. I`m one of those people who says, I`m glad she`s doing it. It may cost her a job.
John Nichols moment of truth for you. You were living in Wyoming, you`re a Democrat, and you could vote in the primary. Would you vote for Liz Cheney to save her?
NICHOLS: Very wrestled with this. I don`t know that I would. I think that at the end of the day, voting for Cheney might be a step too far for me. But I don`t live in Wyoming. And when I was there -- I was there, I talked to a lot of sincere Democrats who will cross over and vote for Liz Cheney, someone who they never ever thought they would vote for because they think it`s that important.
HASAN: Quick last question to you, Stuart. There`s a lot of talk about Liz Cheney mounting a presidential bid, which I find a bit odd, given she`s struggling to save her seat in Congress.
I mean, would she run as a third party person? Wouldn`t that just split the vote? I mean, what do you make of all the talk around Liz Cheney in 24?
STEVENS: I don`t know what to make of it. And I think anybody who says that they know what would happen in a political science sense about whether an independent candidate coming from the conservative wing of the Republican Party is kidding themselves.
I can argue this round or flat, I can argue that it would guarantee that either Donald Trump or whoever the Republican nominee is will not win, which I think is important.
I can also argue that it will make it too easy for those Republicans who voted for Biden to have sort of an off ramp. If they don`t have the vote for the Democrats that they can vote for this independent, that would reelect Donald -- that would elect Donald Trump or Republican.
HASAN: Well, let`s see if she even survives this congressional race. We`re out of time, Stuart Stevens, John Nichols, thank you both for a fascinating and important discussion I think. Thank you both.
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That is ALL IN for this week, I`ll be back on Sunday at 8:00 p.m. with my show "THE MEHDI HASAN SHOW". "MSNBC PRIME" though starts right now with Ali Velshi. Good evening, Ali.