Summary
Marjorie Taylor Greene spent most of the afternoon under oath after Free Speech for People filed a lawsuit seeking to disqualify her from reelection due to her role in inciting the January 6 insurrection. The New York Times reported that McCarthy told Republicans in the days after January the stakes that he would ask Trump about resigning which McCarthy called false and wrong. Marjorie Taylor Greene denied under oath that she didn`t want Congress to certify Biden`s election win, contradicting her previous baseless statements about election fraud. Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis signs bill repealing Disney`s special district for Walt Disney World.
Transcript
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: It is very educational, I think, for our audience to learn what`s happening in West Virginia. And Manchin claims that this is what West Virginians want. But West Virginia ranks 50th in infrastructure, 49th in cancer mortality, 48th in the economy, 47th in health care, and Manchin isn`t helping.
I want to thank you, Stuart Acup. Thank you so much for all that you did.
STEWART ACUFF, FORMER AFL-CIO NATIONAL ORGANIZING DIRECTOR: I want to save June 19 with the Poor People`s Campaign.
REID: All right, I will be there. I will be there. And that is tonight`s readout. Thank you, sir. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEHDI HASAN, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you mean when you said that, once you lose your freedom, it has to be earned with the price of blood?
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Well, once -- I`ve always said I`m against violence.
HASAN: Marjorie Taylor Greene, confronted with reality in a Georgia court.
GREENE: You can`t allow it to just transfer power peacefully.
HASAN: And you will not believe the things she can`t remember.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you advocate President Trump to impose martial law as a way to remain in power?
GREENE: I don`t recall.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you`re not denying you did it, you just don`t remember.
GREENE: I don`t remember.
HASAN: Tonight, what is essentially the first public hearing on January 6. And I`ll speak to one of the attorneys bringing the case.
Plus, new lies and blockbuster new recordings of the leader of Republicans in the House.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I`ve had it with this guy. What he did is unacceptable. Nobody can defend that and nobody should defend it.
HASAN: And why the people of Florida will pay as Ron DeSantis tries to cancel Disney when ALL IN starts now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN (on camera): Good evening from Washington D.C. I`m Mehdi Hasan in for Chris Hayes. Today, for the first time, a member of Congress had to face some level of accountability for the Republican plot to overturn the 2020 presidential election, and especially the January 6 insurrection.
Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene spent most of the afternoon under oath. After Free Speech for People an election campaign finance reform organization filed a lawsuit seeking to disqualify her from reelection due to her role in inciting the January 6 insurrection.
It`s a big deal historically, politically, and legally. There are all sorts of ramifications that can come out from all of this, as well as from Greene`s testimony. Remember, the three Republican members of Congress including Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, who the January 6 Committee contacted for voluntary interviews have all declined.
But today, a member of Congress who was accused of playing a role in the insurrection was asked questions in person under oath for the whole nation to watch. But before we get into Marjorie Taylor Greene`s denials and evasions, let`s just remind ourselves what she was posting on our own Facebook feed before the insurrection took place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREENE: And this is an important time in our history. We can`t allow this just to -- just to be gone, you know, just to let it go. You can`t allow it to just transfer power peacefully like Joe Biden wants and allow him to become or president because he did not win this election. It`s been stolen and the evidence is there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: That is a call for violence. There`s no other way to describe that other than incitement. I mean, what else is the alternative to a peaceful transfer of power? It`s a tough clip to push back against, but Greene sure tried.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it fair to say, Representative Greene, that from election night of 2020 until January 6, 2021, your personal opinion and your wish was that Congress not certify Joe Biden as the winner of the 2020 election?
GREENE: No, that`s not accurate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Sorry, not accurate. We just saw Marjorie Taylor Greene say herself, there shouldn`t be a peaceful transfer of power. She even voted against certifying Biden`s victory on the night of the insurrection. Maybe someone forgot to tell her she was under oath today. Although outright denial was not really her go-to move in this hearing, mostly she just couldn`t remember, especially weirdly when it came to her long and shameful record of advocating for political violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you like a post that said it`s quicker that a bullet to the head would be a quicker way to remove Nancy Pelosi from her role as Speaker.
GREENE: I had many people manage my social media account over the years. I have no idea who liked that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You`re -- are you testifying under oath it wasn`t you? I just want to be clear on that.
GREENE: I am testifying. I have no idea who liked that comment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fair enough. It could have been you, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She answered the question.
GREENE: I`m telling you, I do not know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: It could have been anyone, anyone. And it could just be that Marjorie Taylor Greene couldn`t recall. And as we saw today, there was so much that she could not recall.
[20:05:10]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did you first become aware that there were going to be large demonstrations in the on 6th?
GREENE: I don`t recall.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And who put it on your calendar?
GREENE: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody on your staff, I take it.
GREENE: I have no idea. I don`t know. I do not recall that, no. I don`t recall. I don`t remember. I don`t think so. I don`t recall the exact days. I don`t think so. I don`t recall that at all. I don`t know. I don`t recall. That was the video but I don`t recall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: I don`t recall. I don`t recall. There was a lot of that today. Greene`s seeming inability to remember anything that happened in our own life over the past few years, reminded me of her mentor disgraced ex- President Donald J. Trump, because when Trump was deposed in December of 2015, he cited memory lapses 59 times.
Greene did catch herself one time during today`s hearing when she tried to deny calling House Speaker Nancy Pelosi a traitor before suddenly, oops, remembering she said that on video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In fact, you think that Speaker Pelosi is a traitor to the country, right?
GREENE: You`re I`m not answering that question. It`s speculation. It`s hypothetical.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said that, having you on the screen that she`s a traitor to the country.
GREENE: No, I haven`t said that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Put up exhibit five, please.
GREENE: Oh, no, wait. Hold on now. I believe by not upholding the -- securing the border, that violates her oath of office.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: It can be tough to keep all your lie straight when so much of your life is on video. And sometimes there`s not a lot of wiggle room. Remember that clip we played earlier where Greene said there shouldn`t be a peaceful transfer of power? Well, the congressman was forced to respond to that specific clip in court today under oath.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREENE: And this is an important time in our history. We can`t allow this just to -- just to be gone -- you know, just to let it go. You can`t allow it to just transfer power peacefully like Joe Biden wants and allow him to become our president because he did not win this election. It`s been stolen and the evidence is there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so that`s you, right, Ms. Greene?
GREENE: Yes, that`s me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And when you say we can`t allow it, we can`t just let it go, the "it" in that phrase is to have Joe Biden declared the winner of the 2020 presidential election.
GREENE: You are showing a video where it doesn`t give us any reference beforehand and it doesn`t give us any reference afterwards. So, it`s not really my complete -- it`s hard to get an understanding of what I was saying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so your answer is you don`t know what you`re referring to?
GREENE: I don`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
GREENE: We`re watching a partial video and a partial statement of clearly an interview I was doing. I don`t know what date it was on, and it`s definitely off someone else`s Twitter or Facebook. I can`t see it from here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: It`s only a partial statement. Her exact words where you can`t transfer power peacefully like Joe Biden wants and allow him to become our president because he did not win this election. What added context would have made that more acceptable, unless she prefaced it with a dangerous and crazy thing for me to say would be you can`t just allow Joe Biden to transfer puppies. I mean, look, I don`t think more context is going to help unless it`s that.
After spending most of the hearing question in green on her public statements and actions, the petitioning lawyers moved to her private conversations, including her interactions with ex-President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve had a number of meetings with him, right?
GREENE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`ve had meetings with him between the election in 2020 and January 20, 2021, right?
GREENE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in those meetings, you discussed with him your advocacy for the idea that there should be martial law declared in the United States?
GREENE: No, I don`t recall ever discussing that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you saying it didn`t happen or you`re saying you don`t recall one way or the other?
GREENE: I don`t recall ever discussing that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Did you discuss that topic, the idea that there should be martial law declared in the United States prior to the inauguration of President Biden?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your Honor, I`m going to have to -- I actually represent the President of the United States, and that`s covered by executive privilege. She can`t in the name of this conversation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Executive privilege? She`s not a member of the executive and this council was here on her behalf, not on Mr. Trump`s behalf unless there`s something I missed. It`s not a proper objection, Your Honor.
CHARLES BEAUDROT, ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE: I`m sorry. What was the question again?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The question was whether prior to the inauguration of Joe Biden, Ms. Greene, whether you ever advocated for martial law to be imposed in a conversation with the chief of staff of then-President United States Mr. Trump.
[20:10:16]
BEAUDROT: You can answer the question.
GREENE: I don`t recall.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever advocate for martial law prior to the inauguration of Mr. Biden with any member of the White House staff that was part of the Trump administration?
GREENE: I don`t recall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: I don`t know about you, but I personally feel like I would remember if I had advocated for imposing martial law in America with anyone, especially if that person was the President of the United States or his chief of staff. Greene`s ridiculous refusal to answer anything truthfully was hardly convincing, and in many ways, raised even more questions about the Republicans attempt to overturn the 2020 election.
Ben Clements helped develop the legal strategy against Marjorie Taylor- Greene today. He`s the chair and senior legal advisor for Free Speech for People, the organization which brought today`s petition. He joins me now. Ben, thanks so much for coming on the show. How do you think that hearing went today for Marjorie Taylor Greene specifically?
BEN CLEMENTS, SENIOR LEGAL ADVISOR, FREE SPEECH FOR PEOPLE: Well, I think it went very well for the voters of Georgia who are challenging her candidacy. I think it did not go so well for Marjorie Taylor Greene. But she doesn`t have much to work with. She has a long history, as your intro just showed, of advocating for political violence.
She has a clear record on Twitter on video and otherwise in public documentation of calling for her supporters to come to Washington on January 6 and engage in what she described as our 1776 moment which could only be understood and certainly was understood as a call to armed resistance to the peaceful transfer of power which, as you noted, she publicly said we cannot allow to happen.
So, with all of that she was left with little to do then deny and evade which she did at great, great length. And I think your coverage that you just provided have the number of refusals to even admit or deny, but simply to say I do not remember, even to the question whether she urged the president -- then-President to implement martial law cast serious doubt on her credibility.
HASAN: Yes.
CLEMENTS: I think a fair inference is that she was trying to deny what she thought she could get away with denying, but not go so far as to not deny something that could be proved and might open her up to a possible perjury prosecution.
HASAN: I mean, a simple no would be -- would have been fine if she said, did you advocate for martial law? No. It was what, 16 months ago, it wasn`t 16 years ago. The idea that she`s forgotten whether she advocated for martial law is the most ridiculous thing I`ve heard from her. And I`ve heard a lot of ridiculous things from her. Ben, when are you expecting a decision from the judge and what happens after that under Georgia law?
CLEMENTS: So, the administrative law judge will make recommended findings that he then would submit to the Secretary of State of Georgia, and then the Secretary of State will act on those findings. And our hope and expectation if the judge reads the testimony the way you have, and the way we have is that he will conclude that she did engage in insurrection by promoting and by urging this insurrection. And then the Secretary of State will then be in a position to exclude her from the ballot based on those findings.
HASAN: So, Ben, Congresswoman Greene`s lawyer made an argument in his closing that the 14th Amendment, the amendment you`re using to try and exclude her from office as an alleged insurrectionist was essentially invalidated by the 1872 Amnesty. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The simple argument about this is the 1872 Amnesty Act relieved the disability under Section 3 to "all persons whomsoever." Representative Green is all persons whomsoever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: So, he`s saying that this 1872 law gives cover to anyone for the rest of time. What do you make of that line of reasoning?
CLEMENTS: It`s crazy in a word, but more specifically, there is no textual support in the language of that statute. There is no historical support in the historical record for the idea that Congress intended not long after Section 3 of the 14th Amendment was enacted to essentially eliminate it by giving amnesty to future insurrectionists for all time, insurrectionists, who hadn`t been born yet, let alone committed their insurrection, and nor could Congress do that.
Congress cannot effectively repeal a constitutional amendment except by a new constitutional amendment which would have required ratification by three quarters of the states which of course they did not do.
And I`m not alone in this view. This was the interpretation of Judge Amy Totenberg in federal court when Miss Greene made the same argument in an effort to stop these proceedings. The federal district court judge rejected this argument about the Amnesty Act largely on the grounds I`ve just described. And that`s why we were able to go forward today with this hearing.
[20:15:34]
HASAN: Well, whatever happens in this hearing, Ben, I`m glad we got to see what we saw today. I appreciate that. I appreciate the work that got to this point. Ben Clemens, thank you for your time today.
CLEMENTS: Thank you very much, Mehdi. Good to be here.
HASAN: Do not go anywhere. When we come back, the new secret recordings of House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy talking about whether Donald Trump should resign in the days after January 6. That blockbuster reporting and McCarthy`s brazen lie that made it all worse right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:20:00]
HASAN: Imagine you`re one of the most powerful politicians in America. You`ve served in Congress for 15 years. You are on course to potentially become Speaker of the House, third in line to the presidency. You wake up in the morning and the New York Times is claiming that you said something in private that would be politically damaging to your base. You did say it, but you put out a statement calling the reporting false anyways.
Did you not stop to think that there might be tapes? That is exactly what happened to Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy. The New York Times reported that McCarthy told Republicans in the days after January the stakes that he would ask Trump about resigning. McCarthy called The Times reporting "false and wrong."
And his spokesman told The Times "McCarthy never said he had called Trump to say he should resign." But as the "MADDOW SHOW" reported exclusively last night, the two journalists behind the reporting had the receipts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Liz, you on the phone?
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Yes, I`m here. Thanks, Kevin. I guess first a question when we were talking about the 25th Amendment resolution.
MCCARTHY: Yes.
CHENEY: And you asked if, you know, what happens if it gets there after he`s gone? Is there any chance -- are you hearing that he might resign? Is there any reason to think that might happen?
MCCARTHY: I`ve had some few discussions. My gut tells me no. I`m seriously thinking about having that conversation with him tonight. I haven`t talked to him in a couple of days. Again, the only discussion I would have with him is that I think this will pass and it would be my recommendation you should resign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: It sounds like the New York Times reporting was accurate to me, Kevin. But it gets better. That phone call was from January the 10th 2021. There was another call with House Republicans the next day. And a reporter asked McCarthy what he said about Trump on that call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the spirit of disclosing private conversations, did you tell House Republicans on the January 11 phone call that President Trump told you he agreed that he bore some responsibility for January 6 as chairman Thompson`s letter indicates,
MCCARTHY: I`m not sure what call you`re talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Really? Really? I think you probably know where I`m going with this. Roll the tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCARTHY: But let me be very clear to all of you, and I`ve been very clear to the president, he bears responsibilities for his words and actions, no ifs, ands, or buts. I asked him personally today, does he hold responsibility for what happened? Does he feel bad about what happened? He told me he does have some responsibility for what happened. And he needs to acknowledge that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: You`re zero for two, Kevin. But of course we know Republicans like Kevin McCarthy lie all the time. It`s reflexive for them. Just imagine all the other conversations McCarthy lied about that we don`t have on tape. But that might be coming soon.
David Jolly served alongside Kevin McCarthy, then-House Majority leader as a Republican congressman from 2014 to 2017. He`s no longer affiliated with the Republican Party, and he joins me now. David, thanks for coming on the show.
DAVID JOLLY, FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN: Good to be with you.
HASAN: How common it is this form of brazen lying among the House Republican conference during your time then?
JOLLY: It was brazen. But I will say that Kevin McCarthy is one of the most scurrilous, power-hungry, craven, hypocritical leaders to be elevated within the Republican conference. And I say that having been one of the members that opposed him when he tried to become Speaker in 2015, and ultimately stopped his ascension to the speakership when John Boehner resigned.
Kevin McCarthy got to Congress knowing he wanted to be Speaker of the House. But what the nation learned once again today is Kevin McCarthy lied to his leadership team. He lied to his own conference. He lied to the former president. He lied to the press. He lied to the American people.
And I would say the only saving grace here, Mehdi, is that the entire Republican Conference already knew that and has already supported him because understand, he actually said on that private call to the entire Republican conference on, I believe, the 11th of January, that Donald Trump has accepted responsibility. He told the entire conference that but then he went out and he told the world a different story, and Republicans saw him do that and have yet to hold Kevin McCarthy accountable. They`re in this bed with him all the way.
[20:25:03]
HASAN: I mean, it`s a good point that the Republican conference is obviously were hearing that tape for the first time. They heard it live and of sound for over a year knowing that he was lying to the public.
JOLLY: That`s right.
HASAN: And David, maybe he was lying to them. How do we know what to believe even in private? How do we know Trump took responsibility?
JOLLY: You know --
HASAN: He might have just said that. We have no idea what McCarthy says and what`s true. I want to ask you, what do you make of Kevin McCarthy as a leader, as a Congress member? Because covering Washington, there are plenty of intimations that he is not, shall we say, the sharpest thinker in the House. Nancy Pelosi once called him a moron.
JOLLY: Look, there are policy wonks, and then there are tacticians. He`s a tactician. He is somebody that knows every single congressional district in the country, knows the ins and outs. And as a result, knows how to influence members from those districts.
Recall that he came of age alongside Eric Cantor and Paul Ryan. They were the young guns around 2010 that we`re going to reshape the Congress. Eric Cantor has now gone, Paul Ryan has gone, but each of them rose to leadership. This is now McCarthy`s time.
Listen, when he lost the speakership in 2015, he knew that every day he had to wake up to regain it. The only pathway he has, Mehdi, is to dramatically expand the House conference so that he has more votes than needed so he doesn`t have to worry about the Marjorie Taylor Greenes and the Matt Gaetz and so forth.
HASAN: Talking of Matt Gaetz, David, when he made these comments recently a rally, we all kind of laugh. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Give us the ability to fire Nancy Pelosi, take back the majority, impeach Joe Biden, and I`m going to nominate Donald Trump for Speaker of the United States House of Representatives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: We may have all laughed, but did the idea of Speaker of the House Donald Trump become a little more plausible over the last 24 hours?
JOLLY: It absolutely did. And any member can nominate anyone. They don`t have to be a member of the House. And I believe Matt Gaetz, he will nominate Donald Trump. Donald Trump will likely say he doesn`t want the job. But of course, let`s see how he plays with the narrative here.
Here`s what I would tell Matt Gaetz and others and I would say to us as we evaluate McCarthy through the lens of how close he`s trying to get to Donald Trump, I would say to Matt Gaetz, you already have your Donald Trump in Kevin McCarthy. He is someone who will -- who will say anything he needs to, to address the passions of the moment, say something different when it serves his own political interest.
He is rudderless when it comes to ideological convictions or personal convictions. His only interest, his only motivating factor or motivating behavior is his own elevation to political power. He is Donald Trump. Kevin McCarthy and Donald Trump are the same person.
HASAN: On that, what a -- what a charming visual image. So, on that note, NBC News has confirmed that McCarthy is trying to atone for his lies with Trump. "One person close to Trump said McCarthy called the former president and apologized. He said he was placating Liz Cheney and he was paying her lip service said the person who spoke with Trump about the call. Trump isn`t really mad. He`s got other things on his mind. He accepts Kevin for who he is. It`s not like he really trusts him."
What do you make of that kind of bowing and scraping from McCarthy, predictable and predicted?
JOLLY: Kevin McCarthy is the Republican leader who picked out I believe red jelly beans to send them to Donald Trump because he knew that was his favorite color. It doesn`t surprise me.
HASAN: It was Starburst. I think it was Starburst, but yes.
JOLLY: Starburst, yes. It doesn`t surprise me Kevin went groveling to the former president. And look, Donald Trump holds a lot of cards here. What Kevin McCarthy has to do, the way the rules work, is he will get half the conference behind closed doors to agree he should be the speaker. But when he goes to the floor, he needs 218 votes. The way we stopped him in 2015 where people like me who said even if you get a majority behind closed doors, that doesn`t mean I`m going to give you my vote on the floor.
Kevin McCarthy tonight does not have 218 Republicans to make him speaker. He needs to get to 240, 250, 260 in the Republican Conference. That requires Donald Trump`s help. But as soon as Kevin gets there, he doesn`t have to worry about the Donald Trump caucus. And that is the perfect example of how Kevin McCarthy ultimately will govern. He will abandon Donald Trump as soon as he has the votes he needs to become speaker.
HASAN: What a lovely man. David Jolly, thank you for your time tonight. I appreciate it.
Between Kevin McCarthy getting caught in a lie about those calls and Marjorie Taylor Greene`s considerable memory gaps about the lead up to January 6, it was quite the showing today for House Republicans. But how far will their denials get them? That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:34:12]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did you first become aware that there were going to be large demonstrations in D.C. on the sixth?
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I don`t recall.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who put it on your calendar?
GREENE: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody on your staff I take it?
GREENE: I have no idea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you denying that under oath that you made that statement?
GREENE: I`m not. I just don`t recall -- I`m not recalling saying specifically that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You yourself have used the term 1776 to describe the events of January 6, 2021.
GREENE: I don`t recall but if you say, I don`t recall making that tweet but that`s what this piece of paper says.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MEHDI HASAN, MSNBC HOST: Marjorie Taylor Greene, just flat out ran away from her own record today, just like Kevin McCarthy did whenever he was questioned about what he said about Trump or to Trump. Two congressional Republicans following the same playbook, lie, lie, lie.
[20:005:02]
HASAN: And when you get caught, run away. Here`s what they may not be able to run away from, the legal fallout from everything we`ve learned from them over the past 24 hours.
Jill Wine-Banks is a former assistant Watergate Special Prosecutor. Harry Litman served as a former Deputy Assistant Attorney General and the U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Pennsylvania. They both join me now. Thank you for joining me.
Harry, let me start with you. What does Marjorie Taylor Greene hearing add to what we know the January 6 investigators already have?
HARRY LITMAN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, look, they knew most of what she was going to say. But it adds a kind of complete disavow what happened. No more now trying to prevaricate and say there was fraud or maybe the violence was OK. She`s had to run from it. So, that`s for starters.
Second, it`s a serious thing. I think it`s likely in her case, she may be skates by, but the record has been made that this kind of conduct was at, you know, absolutely outside the bounds of the Constitution. And she now -- and her confreres have to now basically back away from it. That`s a little bit.
You`re right I think with all these I don`t recalls, etcetera, she skates away from personal liability, but nevertheless, she looks to the country as someone who is really ducking the truth.
HASAN: To be fair, she wasn`t seen by the country as a very truthful person before today. But I take your point, Harry.
Jill, let me ask you this. On the -- on the hearing -- on the -- on the videos that we saw today, are you as bothered as I am that it took a random courtroom in Georgia in a case brought by a small independent activist group to see a Republican member of Congress questioned about one six under oath? Where is the 1/6 committee? Is it all a careful master plan from the 1/6 committee or are they just delaying hearings, delaying everything? I mean, I`m frustrated. I don`t know about you.
JILL WINE-BANKS, FORMER ASSISTANT WATERGATE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: I`m frustrated. I look forward to the public hearings, because I know the impact that it can have, it made a huge difference in Watergate.
But I also want to add something to what Harry said. I agree with him. But saying I don`t recall, I don`t remember hundreds of times when in fact you do recall, you do remember is perjury. She was under oath and saying I don`t recall when you do is perjury. It`s hard to prove, very hard to prove. But it doesn`t mean it`s not a crime.
So, she should be careful of that. It`s harder to prove that than to prove if she had denied certain things, that there might be a tape of her saying, but it doesn`t evade criminal responsibility.
HASAN: It`s a very good point. And Harry, and just talking about the do not recalls from Marjorie Taylor Greene and the do -- I don`t knows, there was this one exchange which was particularly egregious. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it fair to say, Representative Greene, that from election night of 2020 until January 6th 2021, your personal opinion and your wish was that Congress not certify Joe Biden as the winner of the 2020 election?
GREENE: No, that`s not accurate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Harry, how is that not a provably false statement? Not just because of the abundance of video of her saying the opposite but what she did on January 6, she voted to overturn the election.
LITMAN: Yes, look, I think it is. I agree with Jill. All the I don`t recalls are also but they`re very rarely -- you know, a perjury especially against her would have all kinds of procedural sign offs, etcetera.
But look, people -- everyone in the courtroom understands when you get up and deny or say you don`t recall what`s happening here. It`s the watchword of the perjurer who doesn`t want to be, you know, actually painted into a corner. That`s what happened today. I think it`ll be frustrating for the legal system.
But look, she is someone, as you say, who had to sit down now, face, you know, charges under perjury and say something and I do think it had the overall effect of her having to back away from what she has so pointedly championed all these months which is the notion of the Patriots who were fighting back. Yes.
HASAN: So, Jill, there was also this bit of logic or illogic from her lawyer that was very startling. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES BOPP JR., LAWYER FOR REP. GREENE: In other words, under the Constitution, prior to January, February (PH), she could have done it under the law. That was her posture, so she wouldn`t even consider it. She had been -- she revered when I say substitution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Jill, you see the judge even snapped up when he heard that before the lawyer caught himself and backtracked. I mean, the idea that you could go for an insurrection for as long as you want. As long as you haven`t taken a congressional oath yet is bizarre and dangerous.
[20:40:10]
WINE-BANKS: It is definitely. But his arguments, the lawyer for her, in making his arguments made so many absurd arguments. He argued that a statute overrode the Constitution, and that she couldn`t be punished for this, that it wasn`t a crime under the Constitution because of an 1872 Amnesty Act. He made a lot of First Amendment arguments when everyone knows the First Amendment has a line, you get free speech, but you can`t yell fire in a crowded theater and you can`t yell, take violent action to a riled up crowd.
And so, I think that there were a lot of things that the judge needs to take into account.
HASAN: And Harry, we`re out of time. But one very quick last question, an important one. In his phone call, McCarthy said Trump took some responsibility for 1/6.
In an interview with the Wall Street Journal today, Trump just denied he claimed responsibility. Put aside the fact that we can`t trust either of them. What does this mean for his legal culpability for the insurrection?
LITMAN: Well, that`s a really good point, because it could matter and what McCarthy has to say could matter.
And I just want to say, look, these are not just lies in normal politics, as usual, this is about the most serious threat to democracy we`ve had in 150 years and that they would put ambition over that is very troubling.
HASAN: Well said. Jill Wine-Banks, Harry Litman, we`ll have to leave it there. Thank you both for your analysis.
LITMAN: Thanks.
HASAN: Coming up -- coming up, those cheap political points Ron DeSantis scored by picking a fight with Disney might have a higher price tag than he expected. What Florida voters will think of putting that potentially billion-dollar mistake? Still to come in the show.
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[20:46:26]
MARK MEADOWS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Do you realize how inaccurate the voter rolls are which is people just moving around, not let alone the people that die off. But sending ballots out just based on a voter roll registration. Anytime you move, you`ll change your driver`s license, but you don`t call up and say, hey, by the way I`m --
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: There`s no evidence of widespread voter fraud though. But there`s no evidence of widespread voter fraud.
MEADOWS: There`s no -- there`s no evidence that there`s not either. That`s the definition of fraud.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Donald Trump`s former chief of staff has been very concerned about voter fraud for years now. Mark Meadows was already talking about it in the months leading up to the 2020 election, as you just heard, and he continued after November the third, parroting Trump`s big lie that Joe Biden`s win was fraudulent.
Meadows even repeatedly pressured the Department of Justice to investigate those false claims of fraud.
After he left the White House, Mark Meadows joined an organization named the Conservative Partnership Institute, which runs what they call an election integrity network. "Dedicated to securing the legality of every American vote".
Meadows was even the keynote speaker at their Election Integrity Summit earlier this year. And his speech made it very clear, he hates election fraud.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEADOWS: It`s more important that we continue to fight the fight on election integrity. Regardless of who the candidate is, it`s very important that it becomes easy to vote but hard to cheat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: But as it turns out, it`s quite easy to cheat if you`re Mark Meadows, a man bereft of any election integrity himself.
We`ve now learned that until last week, he was simultaneously registered to vote in three different states, North Carolina, Virginia and South Carolina until last week. That overlap lasted for about three weeks and Meadows is still registered in both Virginia and South Carolina.
Last month, the New Yorker reported that Meadows and his wife registered to vote in North Carolina a couple of months before the 2020 general election, listing their address, ridiculously laughably as this mobile home in the Appalachian Mountains, but they never lived out or owned that property.
Meadows requested a North Carolina absentee ballot to be sent to his townhouse in Alexandria, Virginia that he purchased back in 2017.
North Carolina officials have now removed him from the rolls and are investigating Meadows for potential voter fraud, noting that he voted in Virginia in 2021, registered at his Alexandria address where he actually lived.
And just weeks after that report came out, Meadows registered to vote in his third state, South Carolina where he purchased a $1.6 million waterfront home last summer.
Certainly, an improvement on that trailer he was supposedly living in, in North Carolina.
So, we found the voter fraud. It`s rich guy voter fraud by Mark Meadows, voter fraud expert, as I`ve said before, and I`ll say again, Republicans, the calls are coming from inside the House.
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[20:53:57]
GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): You`re a corporation based in Burbank, California, and you`re going to marshal your economic might to attack the parents of my state? We view that as a provocation, and we`re going to fight back against that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Today, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis launched the latest salvo in his well-documented war against the Walt Disney Corporation, signing a bill that dissolves their special status, the status had been in place for 55 years and basically allowed Disney to self-govern, providing their own power and utilities to their resort in Florida. And the governor just dissolved that status in retaliation against Disney`s opposition to his Don`t Say Gay Bill and the company suspension of political donations.
Now, DeSantis claims he`s trying to stop the company "taking over the state", whatever that means. But here`s what he`s not telling you. Disney is going to just be fine. Disney is going to be just fine in all this.
In fact, $163 million they currently have to raise in taxes for their special status that now goes away, according to a local tax collector, and the taxpayers of Florida will have to pick up the tab instead.
That`s the part DeSantis and his Republican cronies aren`t telling you about. That`s the part they`re lying about.
[20:55:09]
HASAN: Marc Caputo is a national political reporter for NBC News digital, and he joins me tonight from Florida. Marc, thanks for coming on.
That`s 163 million is just for starters, by some estimates by taking on Disney`s bond debts, the real cost to the state`s taxpayers could amount to $1 billion. Does that hurt DeSantis his chances for reelection? I mean, massive tax increases don`t tend to go well with voters no matter how much cultural red meat you throw at them.
MARC CAPUTO, NBC NEWS NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, two things one voters would have to believe into it would have to happen. I`m not sure if either it`s going to happen. I mean, understand this, as lawmakers have built in about a year, 13 months of time to decide whether it really unschool (PH) all of this.
And while it`s true, yes, if you know, Reedy Creek Improvement District, which is the district we`re talking about goes away, there`s that $163 million issue, and there`s the $7 billion issue.
But the reality is, is that Disney doesn`t have just liabilities or Reedy Creek just doesn`t have just liabilities, it also has assets, it has income producing capabilities.
So, when lawmakers rewrite the law, if they do, and I think that`s a big if, they`ll probably find a way to make sure to claw back all that money.
In the end, it`s probably going to be a wash would be my best guess. But I`m just guessing.
However, to be very clear, and to disclose, I never guessed they`d be in the situation in the first place. It`s a lot of work for what might -- what might wind up being a wash, or might be some sort of bigger problem, it`s going to be a lot of time spent and a lot of figuring out.
And in the end, I`m not sure what sort of real financial payoff the state`s going to get.
HASAN: Well, on that note, I want to play to you what DeSantis himself said about Disney and taxes today, have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DESANTIS: Now, people will say, they do have services and utilities, we`re going to take care of all that. Don`t worry, this is all -- we have everything thought out. Don`t let anyone tell you that somehow Disney is going to get a tax cut out of this. They`re going to pay more taxes as a result of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Well, does that pass the smell test to you and how much -- how much of this whole fight is just performative on both sides even?
CAPUTO: Well, the idea that suddenly Ron DeSantis is bragging, like, wohoo, we`re going to tax a corporation. It`s like, wow, if you talk to Ron DeSantis of last month, he`d be pretty shocked.
That said, Disney has had a number of tax cuts they`ve gotten over the year along with a number of other large corporations, something like half a billion dollars` worth of tax cuts and this year`s budget or the budget they just approved.
So, the legislature does like to cut taxes. I`ve really never heard a Republican bragging like, yes, we`re going to tax this big employer in the state, can`t wait.
HASAN: Politics is changing fast. Turning now to Donald Trump, you just confirmed today that House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy phoned Trump to apologize for his leaked audio. What did you hear about that call?
CAPUTO: Well, I just heard that, you know, it was first reported by, I guess the New York Times for a sound clip. But Kevin McCarthy called him and said, hey, basically, I`m sorry this happened and then tried to assuage President Trump, like I was just playing along, I was giving lip service to Liz Cheney. This wasn`t really me. From what we understand from some people who have spoken to Trump. Trump just kind of nodded along. He got little miffed at Kevin McCarthy, but at the same time, he doesn`t quite believe them.
The word I heard was steak, that was used by a fellow Republican, and that`s the way in which Donald Trump views him. But we didn`t get to confirm that with Donald Trump. So, I can`t say that for certain.
HASAN: Just this hour, the Wall Street Journal, just interviewed Trump and he said this about McCarthy, "He made a call, I heard the call. I didn`t like the call", said Mr. Trump. But almost immediately, as you know, because he came here and we took a picture right there, you know, the support was very strong, Mr. Trump said, pointing to a spot in the room when Mr. McCarthy had taken a photo with the former president.
He also denied, Marc, taking responsibility, any responsibility for one six in that call with Kevin McCarthy that we had Kevin McCarthy quote.
I`m going to ask you, Marc, on behalf of a lot of viewers who look at the work that you and other political correspondents do, what do you do in a situation like this? You have Donald Trump say something. Kevin McCarthy says something. They both have a long history of lying. How do you confirm anything?
CAPUTO: I think in this case, Trump, at least as regards the call, and from what we`ve heard has been more consistent. So, I`m more likely to believe the version of events that McCarthy kind of came up to him and was like, I`m sorry, boss. I hope it never happens again, you know, trumping like it.
HASAN: I don`t envy political reporters, you have to pass different statements from people with no credibility. Appreciate your reporting, Marc Caputo. Thank you.
CAPUTO: Thank you.
HASAN: That is ALL IN on this Friday night. Don`t forget to tune in this Sunday night as Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley joins me on "THE MEHDI HASAN SHOW", that`s this Sunday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC.
"THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts with Ali Velshi right now. Good evening, Ali.
Before I hand over the show to you, my friend, I have to say, what you did in Hungary, Poland, Ukraine over the past few weeks was a master class of journalism. And I want to thank you on behalf of a lot of us.