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Fast Tracking the Trump investigation. TRANSCRIPT: 5/10/19, All In w/ Chris Hayes.

Guests: Philippe Reines, Julia Ioffe, Maxine Waters, Christian Picciolini,Felix Salmon



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Giuliani plans U.K. -- Ukraine trip to push for inquiries that could help Trump.

HAYES:  Donald Trump`s Ukraine campaign.

RUDY GIULIANI, LAWYER OF DONALD TRUMP:  All I want the Ukrainian government to do is investigate.

HAYES:  Tonight, the President is at it again.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  Russia, if you`re listening --

HAYES:  Congresswoman Maxine Waters on Donald Trump`s public pursuit of help from a foreign government to get himself reelected.

GIULIANI:  We`ve got a couple things up for us to leave.  That should turn this around.

HAYES:  Then as Democrats finally subpoena the President`s tax returns, how a crucial Court decision just changed the course of the investigation into Donald Trump`s finances.  Plus how the stalemate in Trump`s trade war will affect you?  And breaking the cycle of white supremacist hate in America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Well, I got caught up with what is basically becoming a white nationalist, terrorist group.

HAYES:  My conversation with a reformed white nationalist on breaking hate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Ideology isn`t as important as the desire to belong.

HAYES:  When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES:  Good evening from Chicago I`m Chris Hayes.  After escaping the Mueller investigation with no direct criminal charges related to conspiracy with Russians or obstruction, the emboldened Trump White House has stonewalled House Democratic investigations at just about every turn refusing to turn over a single White House document, refusing to allow key witnesses to testify, and refusing to release the President`s tax returns despite a very clearly worded law calling for them to do so.

Now, House Ways and Means Committee Chair Richard Neal has issued a subpoena for Trump`s tax returns following the Republican Senate Intelligence chair who subpoenaed Donald Trump Jr. and the House Judiciary Committee which voted to recommend the household Trump`s Attorney General in contempt for their ignoring subpoena.

But while the Trump administration tries to undermine the government systems of checks and balances, the Trump campaign is flagrantly about to run the same play they ran in 2016 openly inviting and welcoming foreign interference in the presidential election.

Rudy Giuliani who is the President`s current personal attorney because the previous one is in prison says he`s going to go to Ukraine to in his own words, and I am quoting him, "meddle in an investigation to attempt to solicit foreign intervention to try to politically wound Joe Biden."

Never mind, it`s already been reported the claim he`s making, the story`s pursuing isn`t true.  Giuliani told the New York Times "there`s nothing illegal about it.  Somebody could say it`s improper and that is the lesson the Trump campaign learned from the Mueller report, which is that they got away with everything they did that was improper and so they will do it again.

They got away with Donald Trump Jr. responding to an offer of Russian assistance from the Russian government by saying if it`s what you say I love it especially later in the summer.  They got away with lying over and over about Trump Tower Moscow on the President`s business ties to Russia.  They got away with this.


TRUMP:  Russia, if you`re listening, I hope you`re able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing.


HAYES:  Thanks to Robert Mueller we now know they were listening because that very same day Russian military intelligence tried to hack Hillary Clinton`s private server for the first time.  Now, the Trump campaign is just doing it again in front of us, and they`re doing it not as a candidate and a businessman, but with the full force of the United States government behind them.

When Rudy Giuliani shows up in Kiev, everyone knows who his client is.  And guess what, the Russians are on to it too.  It went little notice but when Facebook kicked a bunch of Russian bots and trolls off its platform early this week.  You will never guess what story one of them was amping.

Joining me now is a guest who -- for whom this may all feel a little bit too familiar, Philippe Reines.  He`s a former advisor to presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, now co-host of the unredacted podcast.  Your response, Philippe, to Reading Rudy Giuliani say it`s not illegal, some might call it improper.

PHILIPPE REINES, FORMER ADVISOR TO PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE HILLARY CLINTON:  Well, I hope my microphone wasn`t off for the last five minutes because I`ve been screaming into it watching you recount what`s happened.  I -- you know, this happened so much we all come on T.V., we run out of words, we come up with cutie lines to describe it.

But you hit the nail on the head when you said Donald Trump and his kids and his campaign and his minions escaped and are emboldened.  And I`m not a lawyer.  I don`t know what the legal distinction is between what they did in Trump Tower and other things in 2016, but they committed moral and ethical treason against the United States.

And what`s interesting is they don`t even realize when they did it.  The Donald Jr. defense is well, when we had the meeting, nothing came of it.  The truth of the matter is, the moment he responded to that e-mail saying, if it`s what you say I love it, he was saying that we are open for business.  He was saying that it was open season on our candidates.  And now Rudy is doing the same thing.

And frankly, Rudy is -- just because he`s another one of the president`s crazy lawyers who`s lost his mind, he has clearly thinks he`s speaking on behalf the United States.  And hutzpah of that when Trump is been running around for 24 hours saying that John Kerry, the former Secretary of State should be imprisoned for violating the Logan Act because he no longer represents the United States, I want to know and I think Congress should want to know and the Congress should compel Rudy to come in and tell them what instructions has he been given.

Because if he`s just doing this, there`s a problem.  And this isn`t just about Russia, it`s about Ukraine.  You`ve got people in China right now, you`ve got people in North Korea, in Iran who are hearing this and they are at their keyboards saying that we can do whatever we want.  And you know, this is another abuse of power and my fear is that the Democratic Party will not do anything about it.

They`re going to put all our eggs in the basket of Election Day a year and a half now, and then the day after we`re going to be like oh, it`s not fair.  He you know, he had help from the Ukraine.  Yes, we`re seeing it happen.  We watched it happen in 2016 and did nothing about it, and we are on the verge of being guilty of watching it in 2020 and not do anything about it.

HAYES:  What -- you mean impeachment is what you`re referring to?

REINES:  In terms of we -- in hindsight, we saw what he was saying out loud.  If you can find her e-mail, then five hours later, they were broadcasting, they were -- you know in diplomacy -- I was the most undiplomatic diplomat in the -- in the Department of State.  Your body language, your words, you were basically broadcasting things without saying a thing.  And they are saying do it.

And what was happening is that the system failed to stop him.  Our campaign was lighting our hair on fire, the media -- some media did, some media didn`t.  The government kind of did, kind of didn`t in hindsight.  We all realized that they got away with murder in 2016.

Now, I`m not exactly sure that any single human being in United States can list three things that are being done to prevent that from happening next year.  I can name ten things that Donald Trump is doing to not only repeat it, but make it so much worse. 

HAYES:  It also strikes me -- you said that they`re open for business, that this was not an accidental disclosure by Rudy Giuliani.  They`re calling to attention to it for a reason.  He`s giving on-the-record quotes for a reason.  It`s a public trip.  What is your read of what message that`s sending not just to Ukraine but to everyone else?

REINES:  Well, that`s the thing.  I mean, Rudy doesn`t have to go anywhere from here.  Rudy could go and sit on his couch and not go to Ukraine, not go to Russia.  Everyone has heard it on television.  He achieved the -- what Rudy did today was the equivalent of if it`s what you say, I love it.

The difference is and the difference between next year and three years ago is that we are dealing with an incumbent.  We are dealing with an incumbent that can do what the Republican Party and the right-wing did ten times over.  So whereas they give our candidates health problems, they give our candidates investigations, they give our candidates baggage.

Now he`s going to have the full force of government which he has proven that he is more than willing to abuse for his own political purposes, and he is going to do it.  And Rudy just said, have at it.  I`m going to go have a beer.  I don`t need to go to Ukraine.  I don`t need to meddle in person.  I -- he has already meddled.  Rudy Giuliani today has already committed a crime against the United States.

HAYES:  Philippe Reines, thank you very much.

REINES:  Thank you, Chris.

HAYES:  Joining now for more on the Trump campaign`s Ukraine plan are Julia Ioffe, Correspondent at GQ Magazine who has covered the Russian investigation extensively, and Matt Miller former Chief Spokesperson for the Department of Justice under Attorney General Eric Holder, now an MSNBC Justice and Security Analyst.

Julia, as someone familiar with some of the dynamics here, what do you make of this?

JULIA IOFFE, CORRESPONDENT, GQ MAGAZINE:  You know, I`m going to have to agree with Philippe.  I think this is -- you know, it`s been what less than a month that -- since the Mueller report came out which detailed over the course of hundreds of pages in Volume One all the extended contacts, the Trump campaign had with the Russians and the Russians had with the Trump campaign that you know, anybody reading it I think was scratching their head and thinking how is this legal and how does this not result in charges of conspiracy, or cooperation, or I don`t know campaign finance violations.

And the fact that -- and as you said in your intro, they got away with it.  And so you know, it`s the moral hazard, right.  Like they haven`t been punished, so why not keep doing it.  It helped them in 2016.  They can -- why wouldn`t it help them in 2020?  Why wouldn`t the Russians want to get involved? I think the different question is the Ukrainians probably not on Trump`s side.

HAYES:  Well, yes, just -- let me follow up on that and I`ll come to you, Matt.  What do you -- what`s your read there obviously -- that part of what`s crazy about this is he`s the President.  Ukraine has part of its territory occupied by the Russians.  They`re depending on the U.S. for arms sales.  There`s an incredibly complicated high-stakes diplomatic statecraft question here.

IOFFE:  Exactly.  And they just had a new president be elected and that this is kind of the first U.S. trip essentially over there.  It`s the President`s private lawyer saying hey, do you have any more dirt and can you keep this investigation going on our opponent, which is also funny because you know, we have been consistently pushing on the Ukrainians to deal with corruption in their system and things like this.

The other thing is Donald Trump at last summer`s G7 meeting behind closed doors told all the Europeans you know, get off it.  Crimea is Russian.  Just let it go.  So him now going to the very anti-Moscow anti-Putin new president of Russia and saying like hey, can you help us is you know, it`s kind of rich.

HAYES:  Matt, Philippe Reines just said that it`s a crime committed against the U.S. which I think he meant again in a sort of deep philosophical sense as opposed to sort of a legal sense.  But what do you -- how inappropriate, how improper, how bad is this?

MATT MILLER, MSNBC JUSTICE AND SECURITY ANALYST:  Well, it`s completely inappropriate.  I think what it is you see Trump again operating this space where law doesn`t really exist, this space where you know, you would usually be governed by norms.  Look, it`s obviously inappropriate for the President to send a private emissary to pressure a foreign government to retaliate against his domestic political opponents which is what he`s doing --

HAYES:  When you put it like that.

MILLER:  Yes, exactly, exactly.  And it is -- you know, that is the kind of thing that`s not illegal because you never thought you had to have a log instead because it would be completely inappropriate for a president to do.  I think if you look at what happened in 2016 and you look at what`s happening now, the reason it`s so much worse as Phillipe said, the difference is obviously he`s an incumbent and he can use the powers of the -- of the incumbent president to pressure a foreign government, but it`s also because he`s going to use his powers as president to follow up.

I guarantee you, he`s going to have a conversation with Bill Barr to urge him to investigate this thing.  You saw the Attorney General when he was before Congress asked about whether he had been asked by Kamala Harris whether he had been -- you`re requested by the White House to open investigations and he wouldn`t answer.  He wouldn`t about it.

And you know, I think we`ll find out at some point that this is one of the things that the President wanted to investigate.  And I think it`s important just to say, because the way this happens is the right wing kind of gins up these charges, and they try to get them investigating, and try to get them covered.  This is all based on a lie.

Based on everything we know, there is nothing here.  The vice president did nothing wrong but he will be covered forever and they may get the investigations they want out of it at the end.

IOFFE:  We just had -- by the way -- sorry, there was just news alert that Trump told Politico that he will talk to Attorney General Barr to urge him to investigate Joe Biden.

MILLER:  There you go.

IOFFE:  Sorry.

HAYES:  I mean, right.  I mean, it`s just -- again, this is the lesson that was learned, and the lesson -- and the key lesson I think they learned was if you do it in public, it doesn`t count, right.  So the most incriminating thing that Donald Trump did was Russia if you`re listening.  But that doesn`t -- that he did in public.

If we had discovered an e-mail that Donald Trump had sent to the Russians saying listen, can you hack Hillary Clinton, that would have been scandalous.  But because you just looked in a camera they still got the message and now that`s the way they`re going to run the play this time which is just to do it in front of everyone and dare someone to stop them.

MILLER:  Right.  Which is why I think you see Rudy Giuliani bragging about it.  It`s the same exact strategy is just to go out in the open and do it.  And I will say, it`s the same thing on the other side.  It`s not just the president you know, openly trying to get this you know, this investigation started, it`s you know, he openly you know, tried to get the Justice Department to investigate Hillary Clinton which is what you see him doing now where he openly thinks it`s OK for him to urge the Justice Department to investigate his new political opponent.

That was a norm that had always been the kind of red line that a president couldn`t touch.  He you know, he crossed that red line, he got away with it.  There has been no sanction.  He thinks that you know, he thinks that it`s OK.  And that norm doesn`t exist anymore.

Mayor Bill Barr in his testimony before the Senate and his confirmation hearing said that it is OK for a president to suggest these types of investigations.  So that norm is gone.  It`s completely gone and you`ll see the President continue to trample all over it.

IOFFE:  Can I just say one thing?

HAYES:  Yes, please.

IOFFE:  Sorry.  The -- one thing I wanted to add was well, A the -- you know, in the Barr memo, he said that this was an obstruction of justice because he was very public about it which is puzzling.  The other thing that it reveals about our system that is incredibly troubling is that not only are a lot of things that we do and don`t do in American politics are based on norms but also laws aren`t self-enforcing.  So again, if I don`t get in trouble, what did the laws mean?

HAYES:  Julia Ioffe and Matt Miller, thank you both.  Joining me now, one of the Democrats leading the investigations into Donald Trump Congresswoman Maxine Waters of California.  She chairs the House Financial Services Committee.

First let me start on this topic and I want to talk about Don McGahn as well, but your reaction to the President now apparently according to Politico, I have not seen the news alert myself, but saying he`s going to lobby his Attorney General to investigate Joe Biden and his political opponents and sending his emissary to get dirt from the foreign government?

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D-CA):  Well, as you know, I am not shocked or surprised by anything this president and his minions do.  As I`ve said over and over again, this president is a dishonorable, despicable human being and he`s undermining our country, he`s undermining our democracy, he`s disregarding the Constitution of the United States.  And this president should have been impeached a long time ago.  I know --

HAYES:  Well, let me --


HAYES:  Let me -- I want to ask you a question about that because that has been your stated position publicly on this show for -- do you have conversations with your fellow members of Democratic House leadership about this topic in which you make this case to them?

WATERS:  We talk about what is going on in this country, in this president in our meetings.  I talk about it with my colleagues.  Of course, I`m in the caucuses, I`m in leadership meetings etcetera, etcetera, and I know that Nancy Pelosi, the speaker is trying to do everything that she possibly can to steer us to a win.

And I know that she firmly believes that we`re on the right course.  If in fact, we continue to go with the hearings and our committee`s oversight responsibilities taken care of.  She believes that this will inure to our benefit.

I simply believe that the President of the United States is dangerous.  And if he gets away with what he is doing now, he will have changed the role of the presidency in the future, and I think that is bothersome that he is undermining and ignoring the House of Representatives, the Congress of the United States.

In my own committee where we have sought documents from Deutsche Bank, he`s suing Deutsche Bank to try and keep them from giving us the documents.  We`re going to have to go into court.  He has vowed that he`s going to fight us tooth and nail.  He`s going into court opposing our subpoenas.  And I just don`t think that we should not impeach him.  We should impeach him.

HAYES:  There`s a -- there`s a story about Don McGahn, the White House Counsel that just broke right before we came on air.  The Wall Street Journal reporting that the White House reached out to him twice asking him to publicly say the President did not obstruct justice after the Mueller report was released, and he rebuffed them twice.  What do you make of that and would you like to hear from him before Congress?

WATERS:  Oh I certainly would like to hear from him.  I think he does have courage.  I do think that he`s an honest human being who has done the right thing so far when he left, and I`d like to have him in committee really telling what he knows.

HAYES:  Where are things in terms of the lawsuit?  There`s been escalation obviously.  There`s a sort of parallel thing happening with the Oversight Committee subpoenas that have gone before a federal court is going to expedite that.  Do you anticipate something similar with the Deutsche Bank situation in terms of getting your hands on those documents you`ve requested?

WATERS:  Well, absolutely.  We`re going to have to go into court.  We`ll be represented by our general counsel, staff will be there.  And we believe that we have the opportunity to get the documents.  We believe that the court will side with us.  And so we`re pursuing all of those underlying documents and we`re going to keep doing the investigations.

I`m chair of the Financial Services Committee.  I`m going to do my work and I`m going to do everything that I possibly can.  At the same time, I know that there`s growing dissatisfaction with this president and I know that increasingly the numbers are going to change.

What surprises me more than anything else is that the Republicans in particularly the right-wing conservative Republicans are not patriotic.  They are allowing this president to have this relationship with Putin and the Kremlin and Russia who are unknown enemies.  They`re working with them and they have not stopped.

He will not criticize them, he will not do anything to even deal with the fact that they undermine our election system.  That has shocked me.  That has surprised me.  Even though I said nothing does, but the fact that the Republicans whose claimed to be so patriotic, who claim to love this country, are signing with the president and Russia against our democracy.  That shocks me.

HAYES:  All right, Congresswoman Maxine Waters, always great to have you.  Thank you.

WATERS:  You`re welcome.  Thank you.

HAYES:  Still ahead, the President`s efforts to slow-walk justice and jam up congressional investigators thwarted by a district judge.  That story coming up in just two minutes.


HAYES:  It`s easy to lose track of all the things House Democrats are seeking and currently not getting from the Trump administration.  One of those things being the financial records of President Trump and his business.  Trump filed a lawsuit last month in District Court against both House Oversight Chair Elijah Cummings and Trump`s accounting firm Mazars USA arguing that the coming subpoena for ten years of Trump`s financial records is "all-out political war against Trump with subpoenas as the weapon of choice."

The lawsuit is a familiar tactic for Trump, a way to run out the clock on congressional oversight.  But something happened yesterday was interesting.  A federal judge announced he will fast-track a ruling on the House subpoena for Trump`s accounting records saying next week he will decide the full case not just whether to temporarily block the subpoena while the case proceeds.

To talk more about this I`m joined by Jill Wine-Banks, former Watergate prosecutor and MSNBC Contributor.  Good to have you here.


HAYES:  What do you make of this?  A lot of people I think we`re a little surprised by the judge issuing this ruling.  What do you make of that?

BANKS:  I`m not surprised at all.  We had a lot of expedited hearings during Watergate, and I have been tweeting for quite a while now how quickly we got things done.  We asked to give the information to the House Judiciary Committee on March 1st, on March 26th they had it.

HAYES:  Meaning that had gone through the entire judicial process.

BANKS:  Well, it only went up to the Court of Appeals.  It did not go all the way the Supreme Court.  On April 16th, we issued a subpoena for all tapes for the trial and on July 26, the Supreme Court had ruled.  And the tapes were released in about nine days later.  The president had resigned.

HAYES:  So that`s about -- that was about two months -- two and a half months --

BANKS:  Almost four, I think.

HAYES:  OK.  So I guess -- I guess the point here is that courts can`t expedite this if they want to.  And clearly what I -- sort of my take away is that the courts -- the judges understand this is high-stakes tough and that there has to be some resolution of what is now a kind of stalemate between the two branches.

BANKS:  Right now Donald Trump is effectively eviscerating Congress.  Checks and balances are being undone and Congress has to act.  I really think although I`ve been very cautious and saying we need fact-finding hearings, people need to be educated.  We need to have the public know what`s going on.  We need to see live witnesses not hear transcripts or have somebody summarizing it.

But we are getting to a point the stonewalling is way beyond just the Mueller report.  The stonewalling I think you`ve mentioned has included immigration, has included every possible thing.  You can`t have witnesses, you can`t have information about security clearances that were improper in the White House.  That`s the kind of stonewalling that even Richard Nixon wouldn`t have thought of.

HAYES:  So if -- were this District Court judge, to have this hearing and say actually you have to comply with the subpoena, they will appeal right, and they`d probably be stayed pending that appeal and they might -- if you know, go all the way to Supreme Court.  I mean, what strikes me on the situation -- people say we`re in a constitutional crisis, but to me we`re not quite there yet because right now we have a battle between Articles one and two right.  And the third branch of government is eventually going to be who resolves it.

Now, if the president were to ignore that, that strikes me as a crisis.

BANKS:  Well, I agree with you that the real total end of democracy is if he sits in the White House, locks the doors --

HAYES:  And said we`re not giving anything.  I don`t care what the judge says.

BANKS:  Exactly.  We`re done.

HAYES:  And there was a moment -- I mean, when the judge -- when the Supreme Court orders Nixon to hand over the tapes, there is a moment if I`m not mistaken, from the memoirs I`ve read in things, there`s a real open question about whether they`ll comply.

BANKS:  My memoir will definitely include that fear of well who`s going to go into the White House and get them.

HAYES:  Exactly.  You in which army, right?

BANKS:  Exactly.  I mean, they have guns, and they have guards, they have the army, they have the Secret Service.  Are we going to send in the U.S. Marshal?  Well, they sort of work for him too.  So --

HAYES:  Did you think of this?  Was these things --

BANKS:  Yes, we did.  Although I have to say in retrospect, I don`t think we were ever as seriously worried as I am right now that the president wouldn`t comply.  I mean, Michael cone warned us he`s not going to go quietly into the night if he loses the election.  So now we have serious reason to worry that he will not comply.  That would be a constitutional crisis.

HAYES:  Do you anticipate that this case will ultimately be consolidated that -- whatever happens with this case will be sort of determinative of all of them right.  I mean, there`s a bunch of subpoenas out there, the sort of question about whether they -- or are they going to be sort of adjudicated case-by-case, subpoena by subpoena.

BANKS:  Yes.  And I don`t want to under state how much of a constitutional crisis there is right now because this is all on the road to the ultimate implosion and showdown.  But I think that there are now a number of congressional committees that are working together.  We even have unbelievably some bipartisan support where you have --

HAYES:  The Senate.

BANKS:  Yes.  So there is a way but I think yes, that all of these committees will start to work together because some need the immigration information, some need the security clearance information, some need the information about what really happened to undermine our election, the part one of the my report whereas everybody is focusing on part two.

HAYES:  Yes, Jill Wine-Banks, it`s great to have you in person here in Chicago.

BANKS:  Thank you.  It`s a thrill for you to be here.

HAYES:  Up next, the self-proclaimed tariff man and his trade war with China.  The repercussions for the rest of us next.


CHRIS HAYES, CNN HOST:  Welcome back. I want to clarify something from earlier in the program.  We were talking about a Politico news story in a news letter about the president instructing William Barr to investigate Biden. It was an interview with the president in which he said it would be appropriate in the conditional sense were he to discuss the Biden probe with Barr.  There has been some reporting that perhaps he has already; we don`t know that for sure but I wanted to make sure that we got that precise. All right. 

As of one minute past midnight, the United States raised tariffs on $200 billion worth of Chinese goods, escalating a trade war between the two nations. Donald Trump sent out a veritable barrage of tweets this morning about trade, but talks ended today without an agreement and it`s unclear what`s going happen next. Both sides appear to want to avoid the worst case scenario.  Both sides also appear unable to back down.

Here with me now to talk about what happens from here, is Felix Salmon, the Chief Financial Correspondent for Axios.  I`ve been sort of  confused by the whole thing because it always feels like the apocalypse is just around the corner.  There`s all these like doom and gloom and Wall Street traders will trade down on stocks because the trade war is coming. What does today mean?

FELIX SALMON, CHIEF FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT FOR "AXIOS":    Today is the beginning of the trade war. Think of this like today is day one of the government shut down. The worst case scenario has happened and now the question is, is this a new permanent state of affairs or is this something which eventually one side or the other is going to back down and it`s just going to be here for however many days or weeks?

HAYES:   That`s useful actually;  that`s clarifying. So we`ve -- the United States government has now slapped $200 billion of tariffs on China. China has announced that they have a list of retaliatory tariffs. Do we expect them to announce those?

SALMON:  Yes. There will certainly be retaliatory tariffs, they will certainly attack things like American farmers and any manufactured goods that come from red states and powerful members of the republican Congress. But they have done that before and it`s hard to say how much more they can do. So they might look at other non-tariff options as well. No one want this is. The Chinese don`t want this; the  Americans don`t want this.  It looks like this was just partly a problem of Donald Trump`s own making that when he was complaining about the fed keeping interest rates too high, the Chinese took that -- understand that to mean that he was worried the economy was weak and that therefore, he was in a weaked negotiating position and - and then like everything blew up.

HAYES:  I read that story.  Basically like him bullying Powell to keep rates low sent a message to the Chinese that he was scared the economy was weak which they thought meant he had a weak hand and so sort of strengthened their negotiating position in their mind.

SALMON:  And then of course the consequence is that all of the Chinese imports will be more expensive because they have a 25 percent tariff on them. That raises consumer prices that increases inflation that makes it harder for Jay Powell to cut interest rates.

HAYES:  That`s a great point. We have seen so far that it is at a lower level and there has been sort of targeted real issues particularly for farmers and farm exports. I guess the question is, how widespread do you anticipate seeing the effects of this?

SALMON:  It`s going to be everywhere and honestly it`s going to be largely invisible. There will be certain goods and services that are going to become more and more expensive and you are not going to be able to just point at one specific thing particularly easily and say that`s because of the tariffs. I now have to pay more for sneakers.

One or two things you might be able to do that. For the farm goods, for the farmers it`s very obvious. What they don`t want is to just get a check for the soybeans they would have otherwise sent to China because what they had was a relationship with China and they sell soy to China every year for decades and they had a whole trading relationship there and getting a check this year or next year isn`t going to make up for the fact that they lost the relationship now and there is a good chance they will never get it back. So if Donald Trump thinks he can pay off the farmers, I don`t think he can.

HAYES:  Yes, it`s a crazy system and we`ve not got tariff and  subsidize.  So they tariff - they - they hurt the exports now we`re going to cut a $12 billion check to a variety of farmers to make up for the tariffs that he himself has imposed.  I want to read this.

SALMON:  By the way, we`re borrowing that $12 from the Chinese.

HAYES:  From the China, well in part.


I want to read this. This was an anonymous article published all over state media on Friday or Thursday I guess.  In Chinese state media,  if you want to talk, we can talk. If you want to fight, we`ll fight. Saying that Chinese people are polite by nature yet unafraid of confrontation. We afraid to fight back. It does seem like - I mean it`s a clich‚, but it really is a game of chicken.  Like the car`s crashing is the worst for both economies and yet from a  kind of tactical standpoint it`s important to each of them to not knuckle under.

SALMON:  Donald Trump is the only president that I can remember who could credibly threaten this kind of tariff on Chinese goods. No other president would destroy domestic industry and consumers by doing this kind of thing.   Trump loves tariffs, everyone knows that he loves tariffs.

HAYES:  Right.

SALMON:  And so he can threaten this credibly. So that put him in a weirdly strong negotiating position. But now it`s like he`s gone and pulled the trigger and has nothing to show for it.

HAYES:  Right.  Right.  That`s a great, great point.  Felix Salmon, thank you. That made me understand this better.

SALMON:  Thank you.

HAYES:  Still ahead, the fight against white nationalism in America. I`ll talk to one former neo Nazi who is trying to break the cycle of hate.  That`s coming up.  But first tonight`s "Thing One" and "Thing Two," next.


HAYES:  "Thing One" tonight, Donald Trump might fancy himself an athlete, but he`s not much of a  sports guy.


This was evidenced again yesterday when the White House welcomed Boston Red Socks, S-O-C-K-S, winners of the World Cup Series. But Trump certainly admires real sports guys like Tiger Woods or Vladimir Putin. The 66-year- old president of Russia and hockey phenom seen here playing in an annual exhibition game in Sochi today. Putin is number 11 on the legends team. The other team, well, when you go against Putin you really play defense at your own risk.

No one wants to get themselves dragged out of the arena so Putin managed to put the biscuit in the basket a good eight times today.  That`s if you go by the A.P. and Reuters reports, nine times according to the Kremlin.  A hat trick of hat tricks.  Again, if you`re on defense and Putin has the puck, you have serious life choices to make. After the game the president took a victory lap around the rink and down he went.  Not even Putin can ice skate on a red carpet. Someone will pay for that but if you think playing hockey against Vladimir Putin is taking your life in your own hands, well try playing golf with Donald Trump. That`s "Thing Two" in 60 seconds.


There`s an old saying that people who cheat at golf also cheat at life and boy, does Donald Trump do both of those things. In fact, he`s such a well- documented prolific cheater that almost nothing could surprise us at this point except maybe this news story that comes from a VOX interview with Rick Reilly, the guy who literally wrote the book on Trump, the golf cheat. As Reilly tells it, the club championship at Trump`s course in Palm Beach was held last summer while he was out of the country meeting with Kim Jong- un in Singapore.

Some time later, Trump was playing a round when he spotted the guy who won the championship, a businessman named Ted Virtue, kind of funny. Trump drives his golf cart over and says to Ted, "Congrats on winning the club championship but you didn`t really win it because I was out of town. Ted tries to laugh it off but Trump is dead serious.

Trump says, "We are going to play these last six holes for the championship."  And Ted is like, "Oh well, I`m playing with my son, but thanks anyway."  But Trump says, "It`s OK.  Your son can play too."

They get to a hole with a big pond on it.  Both Ted and his son hit the ball in the green but Trump hits his in the water.  By the time they get to the hole though, Trump is lining up the son`s ball only now it`s his ball and the caddy has switched it.

The son is like, "That`s my ball."  But Trump`s caddy goes, "No.  This is the president`s ball.  Your ball went in the water."  Son stopped arguing about it.  It`s like playing defense against Putin, it`s just not worth it.  And that`s how the man we elected president stole a rinky dink golf club championship title.



HAYES:   The most radical antiabortion bill in the country is still making its way through the Alabama state legislature due to come up for a final vote next week. Now last night we showed you the chaos that erupted as the state Senate that debated the bill.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   All those in favor say aye.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   Any opposed? Motion passes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Whoa, whoa, whoa. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman.  Thee was no motion.  There was no motion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  There was a motion. He made a motion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  There was no motion.  He didn`t even make a motion Mr. President. He did not make a motion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He made a motion to table.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   He did not make a motion.  There was no motion from the other side.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He made a motion to table. Senator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Heck no. He didn`t even make a motion.


HAYES:  All right so what you were seeing there, democrats were objecting to an effort by the all male senate republicans to ram through an amendment removing exceptions for women who are victims of rape or incest from the already extreme abortion ban. The bill would make it a crime for doctors to perform abortions punishable by up to 99 years in prison. It`s likely to pass next week and be signed into law by Alabama`s republican governor.

Meanwhile, the same republican lawmakers pushing that bill just proposed another one that would make it a felony to falsely accuse someone of rape or sexual assault. The measure specifically targets false allegations that are knowingly malicious but it`s already a crime to file a false police report and if the accused were proven innocent, the person making the allegations under this bill can be responsible for paying the accused`s legal fees.

False rape allegations are extremely rare.  It is a much more prevalent problem that the vast majority of rapes and assaults never get reported at all.  Only about 23 percent of rapes are actually reported to the police and a tiny number, just 0.5 percent ever lead to felony convictions. There are a lot of reasons why victims don`t come forward.  Last year, the whole nation watched Christine Blasey Ford explain why she never reported being sexually assaulted as a teenager.


CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD, ACCUSER OF BRETT KAVANAUGH FOR SEXUAL ASSAULT:   Brett`s assault on me drastically altered my life for a very long time. I was too afraid and ashamed to tell anyone these details.  I didn`t want to tell my parents that I, at age 15 was in a house without any parents present drinking beer with boys. I convinced myself that because Brett did not rape me, I should just move on and just pretend it doesn`t happen.


HAYES:   She did finally come forward. The man she accused was confirmed in the Supreme Court anyway. Now he can be the deciding vote to uphold the constitutionality of bills like this one out of Alabama and overturn women`s right to make their own decisions about what happens to their bodies. 



HAYES:  A 19-year-old suspect in the synagogue shooting in Poway, California, that killed one person and injured three others last month now faces more than 100 civil rights and hate crime charges. It appears that he, like the mosque shooter in Christchurch, New Zealand, and the Tree of Life synagogue shooter in Pittsburgh were radicalized online. There is a pretty active digital sub culture of white supremacists and neo Nazis who might have come to the movement initially interested in making bad jokes and trolling in an online forum but later find themselves immersed in a violent racist anti-Semitic ideology. Christian Picciolini is a reformed white nationalist who has made it his mission to help others escape that life. He`s noticed certain patterns among those he`s trying to help.


CHRISTIAN PICCIOLINI, REFORMED WHITE NATIONALIST:   I`ve been working with extremists for nearly 20 years. In that time I`ve noticed a behavior pattern I call cult hopping. It`s when vulnerable people are so desperate to find a sense of identity or purpose that they jump from one extreme group to another. Ideology isn`t as important as the desire to belong.


HAYES:  Christian`s efforts to divert young white supremacists from this path are documented in a sear series called "Breaking Hate". The second episode airs at 9:00 p.m. Sunday night right here on MSNBC.  Joining me now is Christian Picciolini, founder of the Free Radicals Project devoted to helping people exit hateful and violent-based radicalization.  He`s also the author of "White American Youth". Good to have you here.

PICCIOLINI:  Thanks Chris.

HAYES:  I thought there was a really interesting sort of insight that the way the people find themselves into these sub cultures isn`t necessarily seeking out the ideology of the sub culture, but seeking out a group that makes them feel like they belong.

PICCIOLINI:  Yes, nobody is born a hater, so we all seek identity, community and purpose in life. Those are the three pillars that essentially allow us to make every decision that we make. And as young marginalized people are looking for identity, community and purpose, if they can`t find it, if  they have what I call potholes, the traumas in life that they bump into whether it`s poverty or abuse or mental illness.  It could a million things.  Those potholes lead them to the fringes where they find these narratives and there are people waiting for them.

HAYES:  How much have things changed?  You were active in a white supremacist group.


HAYES:  You broke away and you`ve done this work for 15 years. How much - I mean how much is the phenomenon of people finding these sorts of ideologies through, say, like, hate chan(ph) and different websites? How recent is that? How much have things changed over time?

PICCIOLINI:  You know I would say the advent of the internet really changed the ballgame.  It made it as if it was a 24-hour hate buffet where people can served themselves.  I had to be handed a pamphlet in an alley. Somebody had to recruit me physically.  That doesn`t have to happen anymore. Young people can be on a message board like four chan(ph) or eight chan(ph) and start laughing at some of these memes and get desensitized by them and then they`re sent to these other places where the rhetoric ramps up a little bit more and where they`re told certain words and if they don`t react in a certain way, if they use the "n" word, recruiters are keyed in on whether they can take them a little bit further if they start to laugh at those jokes.

HAYES:  That`s interesting so like there`s this slow process of desensitization of boundary pushing with people.

PICCIOLINI:  Yes, and they know they`re not going to recruit everybody, so they cast a wide net and they look for the ones that laugh back at the anti-Semitic jokes or who aren`t phased by them and then they tighten the screws on them.

HAYES:  Although it seems to me in the case of some of what`s happening here that`s not even like some active recruiter.  It`s almost like this horrible dark organism of people just sort of peer to peer kind of radicalizing each other with no one there who`s like I`m here from this Nazi group.

PICCIOLINI:  But somebody is putting that propaganda out there. So much this is coming from Eastern Europe and from Russia.

HAYES:  Really?

PICCIOLINI:  Yes, so many of these troll farms are putting out propaganda, everything from anti-vaccine stuff to flatter the stuff to anti-Semitic tropes.  Russia has been known to do this since 1903 when the put out the fraudulent book, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.? This is a tactic of theirs. What they`re trying to do is to sow seeds of discord and they`re essentially using our own citizens against each other as soldiers in a war.

HAYES:  Yes, I - I - this sort of - I saw this clip on a play which is people  go to train outside the United States is fairly common. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  He`s crying and I said what is going on? He said Chris, you`re not even going to believe this. He bought a one-way ticket on Lufthansa.  He had a fake passport. He bought a fake passport from Ireland, $500 it cost him because he thought his U.S. Passport may fail. He arranged for a hostel in Kiev. He arranged for a limousine to come to the house to pick him up.  He flushed the money into his account and out the same day. I never saw it.


HAYES:  Tell me more about this. What was that source?

PICCIOLINI:  So this is the family of a young man who was a white supremacist.  He got involved in a white nationalist group, very dangerous called (Inaudible) that`s responsible for 5 murders in just the last two years alone. 

HAYES:  Wow.

PICCIOLINI:  And , we`ll he was never violent.  He was very close to some of his people and his family not only lost him to this extremist ideologically but also to an extremist`s bullet.  He was murdered by one of his comrades who ended up going from a neo-Nazi supporter.  And that`s what cold topping (ph).

HAYES:  What was he doing when he was training in Ukraine?

PICCIOLINI:  Well he didn`t actually make I there; his parents intercepted him.  But there have been ppople, just recently the FBI released a statement that the two members - or four members from Charlottesville, people were actually stopped coming back in partisan paramilitary camps that are sending folks to the Crimean border.

HAYES:  And they are essentially right-wing kind of neo-fascists Ukrainian nationalists?

PICCIOLINI:  This is a group called the Azov Battallion. That is a new- fascist viewed modeled after the Panser Division of Nazis.  They fly swastika flags on their tanks. They are a legitimate militia group in the Ukraine.

HAYES:  And they are recruiting people to come train with them from the United States?

PICCIOLINI:  They`re actually training in Russia and St. Petersburg and in Moscow and then being sent to the front in Ukraine to fight against pro- Russian separatists.

HAYES:  That s really wild.  It`s Christian Picciolini.  Thank you so much.  I really, really appreciate it.

PICCIOLINI:  Thanks, it`s good to be here.

HAYES:  Again the latest episode of breaking hate has all that stuff in it and it airs this Sunday at 9:00 p.m. right here on MSNBC.  It`s really eye- opening.  Do not miss it.

That is "All In" for this evening.  The Rachel Maddows show starts right now.  Good evening Rachel.