CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: -- can`t win a senate race in Texas, let me remind you of George Herbert Walker Bush who lost two races for the Senate in Texas. That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us. "ALL IN" with Chris Hayes starts right now.
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CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on ALL IN.
TRUMP: I said I don`t think he did anything wrong. If anything, he did something right.
HAYES: One day after the Flynn memo.
MICHAEL FLYNN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Damn right.
HAYES: What we`re learning about what was redacted.
FLYNN: You guys are good.
HAYES: And why Robert Mueller`s Flynn memo should worry Donald Trump and Jared Kushner. Plus, breaking news from the Washington Post on the untold Saudi spending at President Trump`s hotel. Then, Republicans follow through with the vote to grab power from Democrats in Wisconsin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s face it, the Republicans this year are very poor losers.
HAYES: And new calls for a new vote in North Carolina as the state`s election fraud scandal gets worse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So what were you doing for these.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was helping pick up ballot.
HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. President Trump sat in the National Cathedral today surrounded by former presidents for George H.W. Bush`s funeral and you have to wonder what exactly was running through his head. Last time he was sitting that close as close as he was today to President Barack Obama, the two men were meeting in the White House just a few days after Trump`s 2016 surprise election victory. And it was on that day that the former President Barack Obama offered the incoming president Donald Trump two pieces of advice. One, stay vigilant in North Korea and two, do not hire Michael Flynn as your National Security Adviser.
That latter piece of advice sure looks prescient in both anticipated and unanticipated ways. And President Trump might be wishing he had taken it as he looks over this document here. This is released by the Special Counsel`s office last night, a document that repeatedly refers to Michael Flynn`s "substantial assistance, assistance that Flynn has offered over the course of 19 interviews. The document refers to "several ongoing investigations," then it lays them out.
The obvious one, B, the Special Counsels Offices investigation "the defendant has also assisted with the SCO investigation concerning links or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump campaign. But there are apparently two other investigations Michael Flint is substantially assisting with. A, redacted criminal investigation, an unspecified criminal investigation. There are lots of black bars under that one. And even more tantalizingly there`s still more.
This one. This short-indented line indicating a third matter. This one so secret that even the heading is entirely redacted along with the description below it. So three ongoing investigations the President, his family members, and his associates have to be wondering what is behind all those black bars. To get right into the thick of it, let`s bring in Congressman Eric Swalwell of California Member the House Intel committee and Judiciary Committee and Tim O`Brien Executive Editor of Bloomberg Gadfly and Bloomberg Review, his latest piece Mueller`s Flynn memo should worry Kushner and Trump.
Congressman, I`ll start with you. Your reaction to what we do and don`t know based on that document. What it means for your work in Congress?
REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D), CALIFORNIA: Good evening, Chris. It`s all the more reason we should make sure we protect the Mueller investigation especially as we are on the eve of a potential government shutdown. The Republicans can`t sort a vote out among themselves to keep the government open. Democrats want to negotiate but something that I and others would like to see is that the Special Counsel`s investigation be allowed to proceed without the President as it gets closer to he and his family interfering in it.
Also, Chris, Flynn represents the quo. There`s a quid pro quo you know, in every transaction and you had the Russians offering dirt Donald Trump Jr. accepting the dirt and then Candidate Trump telling the Russians, if you`re listening you`ll be rewarded if you give us more dirt. So what was the quo after the Russians delivered by interfering? Well, Flynn represents part of it by telling the Ambassador hold off on any retaliation against us.
But the other question that is outstanding as we learn about the Saudis and the Turks is are there other countries and are there other quos because it looks like this president was open to do business with anyone that wanted to help him.
HAYES: That is a great point. I`m going to ask you about a story relating to Turkey in just a moment. Tim, I want to go to you though. You wrote this piece that caught my eye saying this. Court documents filed last year said that a very senior member of the presidential transition team directed Flynn to make an overture to Kislyak about the sanctions vote. That, of course, the thing to be lied about, the kind of in trouble to which he pleaded guilty.
According to reporting from my Bloomberg Opinion colleague Eli Lake and NBC News, Kushner was that senior member. What does that mean?
TIM O`BRIEN, EXECUTIVE EDITOR OF BLOOMBERG GADFLY AND BLOOMBERG REVIEW: Well, it means that Kushner is an unnamed person of interest in these documents and I think that there`s other shoes to drop on this. And I think the fact that that the Mueller sentencing memorandum from -- for Flynn last night actually revealed so little that was new, but also redacted things that were substantive, should we the White House and I think it should worry Jared Kushner specifically because he also had his own direct conversations with Sergey Kislyak, the Russian Ambassador to the United States. One of them Flynn was in the conversation with him.
HAYES: Another he proposed to have a backchannel in the ambassador`s secret chamber.
O`BRIEN: And in yet another, he met with a Russian banker, a senior Russian banker with close ties to the Kremlin. And I think to put this in context, Jared Kushner was in financial stress at the time. His family had purchased and overpaid for a skyscraper on Fifth Avenue they could not afford to hold on to. And during the prior months to these conversations, he have been negotiating with the Chinese and with other investors to bail him out of this. He has said and he told this to Congress that when he met with the Russians, he didn`t speak with him about investments.
After he talked to Congress he came out and gave a press statement, a fairly lengthy one. And what she actually did in detail all of his intersections with Kislyak but reaffirmed I didn`t talk about business, I didn`t talk about money. That was before Michael Flynn began cooperating.
HAYES: Right.
O`BRIEN: Michael Flynn has cooperated extensively. If what he has said runs contra to what Jared Cushman has said, and if what he has said is backed up by documents Robert Mueller`s team has acquired or electronic surveillance they`ve engaged in when they were surveilling Flynn which they know they were doing for a period of time, that could come back to haunt Kushner legally.
HAYES: You know, Tim, you bring up a point about the sort of the way in which Jared Kushner senior member of the administration, it was open to compromise by a variety of foreign interests and Congressman, you just mentioned that as a kind of theme here that may expand out past the Russians.
And on that I want to I want to read you this New York Times story which is basically about the fact that it could be the case that one of those redacted investigations is actually about a Turkish angle to this as the Flynn case winds down an investigation of Turkish lobbying persists which says that a special counsel Robert Mueller has referred to the Eastern District of Virginia a criminal investigation into Turkish influence. What do you make of that?
SWALWELL: Well, again it aligns with not only candidate Trump and his family`s dealings and in we saw during the transition a number of meetings that they took that were on for a transition team to meet with foreign nationals and foreign dignitaries, but also National Security Advisor Flynn who was open for business as well, he had gone over to Russia in 2015 sat next to Vladimir Putin, had these deals that he did not disclose ongoing with Turkey. And so I think that made people qualified to be on the Trump team that they had these other dealings and that they too saw American values as transactional rather than being rooted in you know democracy and human rights.
HAYES: Tim, this to me is where this is where the sort of rubber hits the road. This is the sort of --
O`BRIEN: Follow the money.
HAYES: Follow the money, foreign interests compromising a candidate and an American president, possibly Russia, possibly others. Well, it also -- you know, remember that old saying that the fish stinks from the head. For the first half of 2016, we now know that Trump, Michael Cohen and Felix Sater were trying to get a real estate deal done in Moscow. He was very happy to where -- the President himself was we`re very -- the president -- the candidate at the time was happy to wear two hats, running for office and trying to do business deals on the side.
HAYES: And he`s admitted as such.
O`BRIEN: We know that Paul Manafort was doing the same thing.
HAYES: That`s right.
O`BRIEN: We now know that Michael Flynn was trying to do the same thing with the Turkish government. All of them were on the make. And I don`t think any of them for most of 2016 thought Donald Trump was going to get elected. I don`t think they thought about the consequences of their actions at the time whether it was meeting with Russians, seeing that kompromat on Hillary Clinton or whether it was trying to cut side business deals that any of this would come back to haunt them and be the subject of inquiry from someone as formidable as Robert Mueller.
HAYES: Congressman Eric`s Swalwell and Tim O`Brien, thank you both for joining me tonight.
SWALWELL: My pleasure.
HAYES: Joining me now, MSNBC Legal Analyst Mimi Rocah former Federal Prosecutor and Harry Litman also former Federal Prosecutor and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, Co-Authors at the NBC News Think Piece explaining the Michael Cohn`s Trump Tower revelation could implicate Trump in a bribery scheme involving Russia. Bribery is a word with a very specific valence, a very specific force, and as someone who came up covering Chicago politics, something of that scene and know a thing or two about it. What`s your argument here Mimi?
MIMI ROCAH, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Right. So unlike in the Chicago politics, the bribery here doesn`t necessarily involve a bag of cash right? This is bribery -- a bribery scheme I think is a way to look at it. And it ties into what you were just talking about in that first segment. So just being a candidate who`s pursuing business in Russia in and of itself may not be criminal, may or may not. But if you`re doing that and expecting something you know, giving something in return for that it once -- or expecting to give something in return for that once you`re in that official position that you`re trying to get, that would be a bribery scheme, right?
So if he -- if Trump is get -- thinks that he`s going to get the ability to build Trump Tower in Moscow in exchange for sanctions relief for Russia, that would be a bribe scheme.
HAYES: That`s a bribe.
ROCAH: The bag of cash is Trump Tower and the official act is the sanctions. Now, there`s a lot of facts that needs to be filled in. I`m not saying this could be charged or proven right now. There`s a lot of evidence that we already know about, things in the public record that point do this maybe where this is going and that different -- other different actors around Trump may have played parts in this will scheme or conspiracy.
HAYES: And one thing that`s important, Harry, here that I think was people haven`t quite sunk in the importance of this and the Michael Cohen plea is the idea that Russia and the Kremlin directly, the President`s office, Vladimir Putin`s office was the one that Michael Cohen was dealing with and they were the ones that were going to give the green light. It`s not like you`re trying to build a building somewhere and you got the local zoning board. This was Vladimir Putin`s going to say yes you can do this or you cannot do that. And to your analysis that seems to count for a lot.
HARRY LITMAN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes. Buddy boy, we`ll get Putin to bless us and we`ll get Trump elected as Felix Sater, Cohen`s consort here said.
HAYES: Exactly right.
LITMAN: But that`s right we he was dealing with officially a press office person who we know in the overall Kremlinology is sort of number two and direct line to Putin. And this is Trump`s dearest sort of Imperial ambition, it`s his Xanadu that he`s been thinking about for years. And of course on the other side nothing dear potentially to Putin than the lifting of the sanctions. So it`s an enormously attractive deal for both sides.
As Mimi says, when you try to frame it in a criminal law violation, you just -- you hit the little snag in the road that Trump at least as of June 2016 is a serious candidate but not the nominee. A nominee is impeccably an official under the law for bribery, but as a matter of saying we`re -- this is the deal that we`re going to set up. Felix Sater, Donald Trump, that states a conspiracy and Trump just has to make the next step of becoming the nominee, but that`s the agreement
HAYES: So there`s two -- there`s two pieces of news recently. So there`s a Flynn memo yesterday. And Flynn, of course, is -- pleads guilty to lying about a contact with certainty Kislyak in which he talked about sanctions. He said he didn`t and he did. That was the lie. It was about sanctions. Michael Cohen pleading guilty under Special Counsel Office to lie to Congress about trying to get Trump Tower Moscow built. And there`s a connection between these two men that I think it`s important to remember.
This strange story from February 2017, that a week before Michael Flynn resigned as National Security Adviser a sealed proposal is hand-delivered to his office outlining a way for President Trump to lift sanctions against Russia. Those pushing it, Michael Cohen, the President`s personal lawyer who deliver the document Felix Sater business associate who helped Mr. Trump scout deals in Russia, the sanctions seem to come up a lot on the quo end, Mimi.
ROCAH: Yes. No, that`s -- you know, I sort of -- you can`t contract with all these details though I`m sure Mueller is. But I forgot about that and that`s important.
HAYES: Yes.
ROCAH: I keep --
HAYES: Well, it puts -- it puts Flynn and Cohen who are in different orbits on the same trajectory of like let`s get the sanctions.
ROCAH: Well, and it`s literally a direct section between the sanctions and the Trump Tower. And you know, again I think that the idea is -- so Cohen pled guilty the lying, Flynn pled guilty the lying. The lies in and of themselves are significant crimes, but if we`re trying to piece together is -- was there a bigger scheme here. So who are the people who were orchestrating it? Who are the people who maybe knew all the different parts of it? Though you don`t -- you know, under the law you actually don`t have to know every single part of a scheme, but I think that`s sort of you know, those are the -- those are the people we haven`t seen yet.
Now, maybe there was no one. Maybe there was no one who really was putting this all together but it seems a bit complicated for only Michael Cohen to sort of randomly be acting on his own and Flynn to be acting on his own.
HAYES: Well, to that end, Harry, I mean, what I`ve heard from the prosecutors and lawyers and folks I`ve been talking to both on and off the show is these lies, the lies appear to be material to investigations of underlying criminal activity. This was not a lie incidental to the thing that is being investigated. In both cases, both men pleading to lying about a thing that people assume is materially relevant to whatever the underlying crime is.
LITMAN: Yes. And not only that but serious of it in its own weight. This is what Giuliani just called spitting on the sidewalk. You know, as Tim says everyone`s on the make so just take the lie that Flynn told. He`s covering up his own business relationship with Turkey that he`s already made $500,000 from and he -- and he hasn`t registered for and he wants to make a lot more. Trump has personal in addition to governmental interests. Obviously, Kislyak, the same.
So this is -- this is -- the lie itself is particularly grave. You have essentially Flynn carrying on a kind of rogue foreign policy in transition that deals with nuclear power for Turkey, sanctions for Russia not minor matters that he`s fiddling around in for essentially personal business reasons. It`s both corrupt and eyebrow-raising just from the standpoint of national security.
HAYES: Mimi Rocah and Harry Litman, thank you both. Tonight, there`s even more breaking news and it`s right in line with what we were just discussing. This one suggesting a foreign government has been lining the president`s pockets quite explicitly. David Fahrenthold of The Washington Post is here with his latest report on Saudi Arabia`s spending spree at Trump D.C. Hotel. You`re going to want to hear this one, next.
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HAYES: Tonight -- where am I? Here? Here. Tonight, new reporting that Saudi Arabia use -- let`s switch to this one -- use U.S. military veterans to pump money into a Trump Hotel. Washington Post reports that lobbyists representing the Saudi government paid for an estimated 500 rooms at President Trump`s D.C. hotel in the months after his election. The total bill for those trips, more than $270,000.
According to the Post, the lobbyists rented the rooms ostensibly as part of a pressure campaign to overturn legislation opposed by the Saudi government. The lobbyists offered veterans a free trip to Washington if they then went to Capitol Hill to lobby against the law. Several veterans told the post the trips featured fancy dinners in Trump Hotel dining room an open bar that was frequently extended. One of the veterans said he was confused by the opulent nature of the trips until one of the organizers who`d been drinking minibar champagne mentioned the Saudi Prince. I said, oh, we were just used to give Trump money.
Joining me now are David Fahrenthold, one of the Washington Post reporters who broke the story also an MSNBC Contributor and Jake Sullivan former National Security Adviser of Vice President Joe Biden, also a senior advisor for Hillary Clinton on her campaign. David, this is a shocking story. 500 rooms in a few months?
DAVID FAHRENTHOLD, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: That`s right. These -- the Saudi lobbyists started reserving blocks of rooms at Trumps Hotels starting in December 2016 within a month of his election. And between December 2016 and February 2017 they reserve 500 nights, so 500 rooms at Trump`s hotel.
HAYES: That`s -- I mean, just to put that in perspective. Like no one -- that that must stand out on the balance sheet of a hotel right? Like presumably not a lot of other people are booking 500 rooms at a time?
FAHRENTHOLD: That`s right. And especially in -- you remember w at was happening in January 2017 when four of these big trips happen, President Trump was being inaugurated, so that`s a busy season for any high-end Washington hotel, any presidential inaugurations, all the crowds that come in. But now you`re talking about the inauguration of President Trump and you`re staying at President Trump`s hotel that month, it`s hard to imagine sort of a greater crunch at any hotel than that.
HAYES: All right, one more question that I want to get your reaction to this, Jake. What -- you suggest in the story of reading between the lines, it looks like maybe the lobbying effort was cover. Like they`re lobbying on a bill on this 911 bill about whether they can sue the Saudis that everyone have made up their mind about, it didn`t seem to be particularly effective lobbying, they`re using these veterans. Like, was it actually a lobbying campaign?
FAHRENTHOLD: Well, one of the things that the veteran said as you suggested was they just didn`t feel like -- they felt like there was a lot of energy and time spent into giving them a really nice time at the Trump Hotel, but when they went to the Capitol Hill to actually do what they were supposed to do, lobby, they didn`t get more -- weren`t given very much material to describe.
They weren`t prepared very well for meetings with legislators and they were sent as you said again and again and again back to Washington at a time when everyone was paying attention to the new president and not really focused on this law. And they sent them back and back again and again to legislators who would clearly already made up their mind. They would go back and four times or five times to somebody who was a no on try number one.
HAYES: Jake, what is your reaction hearing this?
JAKE SULLIVAN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER OF VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDE: Well, the timing on this is really important. This is right after Donald Trump is coming into the White House which means that basically even before he got elected, the memo went out to autocrats across the world which was basically if you`re prepared to pay the Trump Organization, Trump hotels, the Trump family, help them out in some way, they`ll do right by you.
And in your first segment, you heard about how that logic played out with the Russians, now you`re seeing how it`s playing out with the Saudis, and as we speak here tonight the Trump administration is protecting the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia against the American Intelligence Community and it`s gone out to other people too. To the Chinese giving trademarks to Ivanka Trump, to other dictators trying to pitch Trump hotel business in their countries, and what it basically says is that Donald Trump has put his family business ahead of the nation`s business and for the American people that basically means their national security has been being put up to the highest bidder.
HAYES: Are you worried about -- are you worried about the degree he`s compromised by these business interests and whether he knows all this whether it`s getting reported up to him?
SULLIVAN: Look, I think Donald Trump actually is a very -- has a very simple worldview which is you do right by me, I do right by you. And the problem with that worldview is America`s national security doesn`t really fit into it.
HAYES: Right.
SULLIVAN: That`s an afterthought. That`s kind of a second-tier consideration for him. He likes MBS, Mohammed bin Salman, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, he likes Vladimir Putin, he likes anyone who will come either say nice things about him or do right by him in his business. And so from a foreign policy perspective, it`s a bit baffling to even opine on this because it`s so out of step with any president that we`ve had in recent memory that you have a guy sitting in the Oval Office who basically views the job as an opportunity for him to get ahead in his family to get ahead even if it comes at the expense of what makes sense for the United States.
HAYES: David, this is the second story you`ve written about the Saudis pouring money into Trump hotels, the first was in New York around when Mohammed bin Salman was visiting. In both these cases, how did you find this out? Because it makes me wonder like what -- how much else is there like this?
FAHRENTHOLD: That`s a really good question to ask. So we`ve actually found big Saudi expenditures at three Trump hotels. The one in New York where you said travelers accompanying Mohammed bin Salman and just one stay by Saudi travelers was enough to put that hotel the Trump Hotel in New York in the black for the whole quarter, the first quarter of 2018. There`s this example and then Trump`s Hotel in Chicago is also reported an uptick and Saturday customers since Trump won -- Trump won elections.
All those things came from reporting, talking to investors, talking to veterans who are involved in these things. It`s not something that the Trump Organization or the Trump administration has put out. There`s a huge amount that we don`t know would like to know about what other foreign governments are using Trump businesses and we just don`t know about them yet.
HAYES: Jake, what strikes me as a notable detail here is that`s an American lobbying firm that`s actually making the purchases and that again you know, the White House said we`re going to give away the foreign profits from Trump hotels and writes a big novelty check once a quarter but who knows what businesses are functioning as cutouts for foreign entities.
SULLIVAN: Yes. I mean, look, I think we probably just scratched the surface of the totality of the ways in which foreign governments are now trying to essentially buy favor from the Trump administration. I mean, what`s clear about this case that David just reported on is this book was you know, the playbook was written and distributed around the world from the moment Donald Trump has been in the White House.
And that means that autocrats and dictators in every corner of the world who said I got to get something out of the United States right now knows you go to an American lobbyist, you go to a Trump family member, you go to a Trump hotel and slowly but surely you can make some small investments that will pay off for you down the road. And Trump has been pretty predictable in backing up essentially anyone who has done right by the Trump business.
And you know from the perspective again of American foreign policy in U.S. national security, it`s almost difficult to wrap your mind around this. Like this is the kind of petty tin-pot dictator stuff you expect from a former Soviet republic. It`s not what you expect from the President of the United States.
HAYES: All right, David Fahrenthold and Jake Sullivan, thank you both. There`s more breaking news tonight out of North Carolina. Republicans suspected of being involved with election fraud are now being served subpoenas. The reporter that`s been on the ground covering this unbelievable story joins me next.
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HAYES: Breaking news tonight in what increasingly appears to be absolutely brazened electoral fraud in North Carolina`s 9th Congressional District on behalf of the Republican Candidate Mark Harris. Reporter Joe Bruno of local television station WSOC TV tweeting tonight that the state board of elections has now issued subpoenas for the Harris campaign and others. And this comes after the state`s largest newspaper, the Charlotte Observer, called for a new election in the quote/unquote tainted district.
North Carolina`s bipartisan board of elections has twice refused to certify the results in the district where Harris leads by only 905 votes. And then today, Democratic Congressman Gerry Connolly of Virginia, a member of the House Oversight Committee, tweeted, quote, we must have an emergency House oversight hearing to look into this.
Joining me now from the Hotel lobby in Luberton in Robeson County, North Carolina, WSOCTV reporter Joe Bruno who has done some of the best reporting on this story.
Joe, what is the latest here?
JOE BRUNO, WSOCTV: Thanks so much first of all for that compliment there.
The latest really is that subpoenas have been issued to the Mark Harris campaign, the campaign of Jim McVicker, who is the sheriff of Bladen County, and also Red Dome. Red Dome worked heavily with the Mark Harris campaign.
And the reason the subpoenas were issued to these three groups is very likely because of their connections to McCrae Dowless.
HAYES: Now, McCrae Dowless is the individual, the consultant working for the Harris Campaign, who appears to have been at the center of this scheme. Can you explain, at least best of the evidence you gathered, like what actually was the scheme here, as best as people can tell?
BRUNO: So what I`ve gathered from talking to people who know McCrae and worked with him, he basically would go around with a group of people and help voters sign up for absentee by mail ballots. And he had a list of people that had the absentee ballots already delivered to their homes or likely had their absentee ballots already delivered to their homes so he knew whose ballot to go around and pick up.
So as from what we can tell McCrae had a team of people whose job it was to go around and pick up finished absentee ballots, and in North Carolina that is illegal.
HAYES: That is illegal, and it also looks like -- I`ve seen some reporting indicating that there`s like four races he`s worked in. And if you go back and look at the Bladen County absentee ballot totals, his candidate, in all those races, Republican primaries, this race going back, is winning by hundreds of votes in that one category.
BRUNO: In the 2016 primary, he worked for a man by the name of Todd Johnson who ran against incumbent Robert Pittenger and Mark Harris. Todd Johnson got 221 of 226 absentee by mail votes, those are insane numbers.
And then in the 2018 election, Robert Pittenger only got 14 or 17 votes. Mark Harris got hundreds more than him. Again, that`s an incumbent who is being defeated by huge numbers. That is a huge red flag right there.
First of all, that Mark Harris goes from four absentee by mail votes in 2016 to like 400 in 2018. But it just shows you that the two campaigns he was working for, his ties to these blowout victories, and the numbers just stand out completely against what the other results are in the ninth district.
HAYES: What strikes me about this is this was not that secret in the sense that you, a very enterprising local TV reporter, has now been able to have two on camera interviews with individuals paid by him to do something facially illegal under North Carolina law, protect ballots. This doesn`t seem like a secret. Am I wrong?
BRUNO: Everybody in Bladen County seems to know who McCrae Dowless is, and I`ll tell you pretty much everyone has an idea of what he`s about, maybe not specifically what he was doing, but he is extremely well-known in Bladen County political circles.
Now, as far as the people who were going out and physically collecting those ballots, I take them at their word when they tell me that they did not know what they were doing is illegal.
One of them told me, you know, they`re not involved with politics at all. She really just needed extra cash for Christmas presents, and McCrae Dowless offered her $100 to drive around and pick up absentee ballots. And Bladen County, this is an extremely rural county. The average income in Bladen County about $20,000 to $25,000. It was hit hard by Hurricane Florence. A lot of people may have taken jobs from McCrae Dowless just to pick up a couple extra $75 or $100 a week to make ends meet.
HAYES: Yeah, I want to reiterate what you just said there that I, from what I`ve seen Ii do not blame these people at all. They seem to be telling the truth and they did not know this was illegal. McCrae Dowless on the other hand is another story.
What happens next now that subpoenas have been issued?
BRUNO: Well, we`re waiting to see what hand NCSB has. Of course, the state board of elections has the authority to order a new election. And what`s really interesting is, if the state board of elections orders a new election we go back to the same three candidates, Mark Harris, Dan McCreedy and the Libertarian who was running.
Now, if the U.S. House refuses to seat Mark Harris and a new election is called from U.S. House that`s a special election, that means we have a primary and we do this all over again.
HAYES: That is very interesting. So the board calls new elections, it`s a rerun of the same candidates. If a new incoming Democratic House refuses to seat Harris, because they view him as illegitimate, which they can do, although it would be litigated, then thank you for making some time tonight.
Still to come, Wisconsin Republicans voted today to strip incoming Democrats of their power. One of those Democrats who has just had his power stripped, joins me to talk about whether the fight`s still over, ahead.
Plus, Rudy Giuliani versus the dark web. That`s tonight`s Thing One, Thing Two next.
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HAYES: Thing One tonight, earlier this week we told you here about how the lawyer for the president of the United States has had a rough time lately typing things on Twitter. So, the other day he was making a point that Robert Mueller was crooked or something. And, well, one thing led to another and suddenly he had tweeted a hyperlink to the non-existent website G20.in .in is the Indian equivalent of .com. And that`s when a web designer from Atlanta noticed the slip-up and bought that domain for five bucks and created this page, Donald J. Trump is a traitor to our country.
Four days later, Rudy was very upset, tweeting again, quote, Twitter allowed someone to invade my text with a disgusting anti-president message. The same thing, period no space,occurred later and it didn`t happen. Don`t tell me they are not committed card carrying anti-Trumpers. Time magazine also may fit that description. Fairness, please.
That would be slightly more hilarious if Rudy Giuliani wasn`t, in addition to being the president`s attorney, also a White House adviser on cybersecurity.
And that`s Thing Two in 60 seconds.
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HAYES: Rudy Giuliani has been making a living presenting himself as a cybersecurity expert. He is a cybersecurity consulting firm called Giuliani Partners and he`s even been tapped as a celebrity spokesperson for products to protect you from the dark web.
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RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: Every American needs protection from the dark web. Protect yourself and your family now.
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HAYES: But it`s just weird that the cybersecurity expert seen here defeating the dark web with his iPhone seems so confused by cyber. His security analysis conspiracy theory that somebody had, quote, invaded his text on Twitter when it was pretty clearly he had just fat fingered his tweet was met with near universal mockery.
"Sure, grandpa," responded one Twitter user, "you might want to have one of the kids explain it to you."
Another helpfully suggested, "did you try unplugging it, then plugging it back in?"
But maybe the guy who is totally confused about cyber security is actually the perfect adviser to the guy totally confused about presidenting.
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TRUMP: Rudy is an expert on cybersecurity. It`s been a very important thing to him and to what he does. And maybe I`ll ask Rudy to say a few words.
GIULIANI: Well, thank you, very much, very much, Mr. President. First of all, congratulations on what is, in fact, a historic start of an administration. I`ve never seen so much done in so short of a period of time.
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HAYES: Just before the sun came up, Wisconsin Republicans rammed through a transparently anti-democratic set of lame duck legislative measures explicitly designed to restrict what the incoming democratically elected Democratic governor and incoming Democratic attorney general can do when they take office.
Among other things, preventing them from carrying out campaign promises on health care and voter rights.
Joining me now is one of those incoming Democrats, Wisconsin attorney general Josh Kaul.
So what is your reaction to watching this play out in the wee hours of the morning when it`s specifically targeted what powers you will have when you occupy the office?
JOSH KAUL, ATTORNEY GENERAL-ELECT WISCONSIN: Well, first of all, thank you for having me, Chris.
You know, this is legislation that is clearly designed to undermine the results of the elections that we just had for governor and for attorney general in Wisconsin, and the process through which this was passed was simply embarrassing.
It was literally passed in the middle of the night and it was written behind closed doors. It happened this last evening. And you know one of the central issues in the race for attorney general and the governor`s race was whether Wisconsin should withdraw from this lawsuit that`s seeking to invalidate the Affordable Care Act, which, if it`s successful, would eliminate protections for people with a preexisting condition. And the legislature has now taken the power to authorize withdrawal from that suit away from the governor and given it to itself.
They`ve basically made the debate that we had over this issue in the campaign into a sham, so it`s really unfortunate.
HAYES: just to be clear, Scott Walker joined the suit. I guess was it the governor`s office that decided to join that suit, not the attorney general?
KAUL: The AG was involved in filing this suit and Scott Walker authorized the AG`s involvement in it.
HAYES: And so you and Tony Evers, when you`re running say both were on the same page, we want to get out of this lawsuit. If you elect me, we will withdraw from this lawsuit, a power that the governor of Wisconsin had until 4:00 a.m. this morning?
KAUL: That`s exactly right. And, you know, Governor Walker still hasn`t signed this bill, so one of the things that we`re still hoping will happen is that he`ll decide not to move forward with signing this bill and, you know, undermining the results of an election that he just lost, but if he does sign it I think it`s very likely that this is going to end up in court.
HAYES: Yeah, I want to talk about that in a second. But first, I want you to respond to the Republican assembly leader Robin Vos who was very explicit about what he was up to here. I applaud him for not making a pretense of any kind of like process neutrality. Take a listen to what he says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPEAKER ROBIN VOS, (R) WISCONSIN STATE HOUSE: We`re going to have every opportunity to find common ground with Governor-elect Evers, that`s going to happen. We have to. We have to work together.
But I also know that the situation we are sitting in right now, if we do not pass these proposals, is that we are going to have a very liberal governor who is going to enact policies that are in direct contrast to what many of us believe in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: What do you think of that as an explanation?
KAUL: Well, if Robin Vos wants to control what the governor does, he should run for governor or he should have done more in this campaign. But Tony Evers won the election for governor, and now the legislature has putting aside the practice that has happened for a generation in states across the country, in our federal government, which is transferring the full powers of the office after an election.
The Republicans in the Wisconsin legislature have decided that they know better than the voters, apparently, and they are seeking to take powers away from the governor-elect and from me.
HAYES: You just said that this will end up in court. There are people saying this is -- this is dirty pool, or this is kind of maximalism, but what legal recourse is there for you and for the incoming governor?
KAUL: I think there are unfortunately likely to be multiple lawsuits that come from this. I mean, one of the issues is that, the legislature has taken power that is pretty clearly executive in nature, like the ability to resolve lawsuits and has given that power to itself. So, there are potentially some separation of power issues here, among other things.
And one of the unfortunate results of this is, you know, you heard Robin Vos speak earlier about how he wants to work together. I have made clear, Governor-elect Evers has made clear, that we want to work with the Republicans in the legislature to solve problems that face Wisconsinites, like our opioid epidemic, for example. But what the legislature has done with this action is virtually ensured that we are going to mired in litigation for a big part of 2019. I would much rather be focusing on the problems that face Wisconsin families.
HAYES: Wisconsin Attorney General-elect Josh Kaul, who according to new legislation, has an office five square feet in total size. I`m joking.
KAUL: Thanks for having me, Chris.
HAYES: Thanks for joining us.
Next, to Michigan, where Republicans in that State House are trying to follow Wisconsin`s lead, U.S. Senator from Michigan, Debbie Stabenow, is paying attention. She joins me here right after this.
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HAYES: Meanwhile, Republicans in Michigan are right now attempting to pull basically the same lame-duck stunt that Wisconsin Republicans just appeared to get away with across the lake.
GOP lawmakers in Lansing are trying to strip power from the incoming Democratic governor, attorney general and secretary of state.
To talk more about what is going on in Michigan, I`m joined by the states senior Senator Debbie Stabenow.
Senator, what are Republicans in your state trying to do right now.
SEN. DEBBIE STABENOW, (D) MICHIGAN: Well, first, Chris, thanks for having me. And I would start by saying that this is a complete insult to the people of Michigan who voted a month ago for change. They voted for a Democratic governor and lieutenant govern, secretary of state, attorney general, to make change happen. And so here is what the Republicans are doing to be able to protect power.
First of all, they are voting at moving bills to take away campaign finance oversight from the secretary of state. Our secretary of state, Johnson Benson (ph), literally wrote the book on campaign finance and voter protection. People in Michigan voted for ballot proposals to add more opportunities to vote, to protect the vote. Republicans want to set up a commission, take away the authority for her to deal with campaign finance and bring the light of day on dark money.
Secondly, for the attorney general, they want to set up a way for the Republicans in the legislature to have equal standing on lawsuits. So, when our attorney general brings lawsuits against polluters to protect our water or healthcare, to protect pre-existing conditions, they want, as Republicans, to be able to have equal standing to be able to bring a taxpayer lawsuit on the other side.
HAYES: Can I stop you right there?
STABENOW: It`s ridiculous.
HAYES: Yeah, can I stop you right there, senator? Has that existed before, or is that a new power?
STABENOW: No.
HAYES: So, they are just like, well, you guys have the attorney general office now, but we have the legislature, so we are going to make the legislature another attorney general?
STABENOW: Right, exactly. They have had eight years of complete control in Lansing, complete Republican control. If they thought this was good policy, they could have changed this any time in eight years. But of course, it`s not about that, it`s a power grab, plain and simple. And they are trying to take away the will of the people of Michigan, who voted for somebody that was standing up for them as an attorney general, who would stand up for them to protect their right to vote, a governor that would actually focus on the things that they care about -- clean water, healthcare, fixing our infrastructure, and the Republicans, who lost those offices, are now trying to behind the scenes protect their special interests buddies by changing the rules.
HAYES: They have not, unlike Wisconsin that ran it through in the wee hours of the morning, they have not taken the vote yet, correct?
STABENOW: Well, they have come out of committee. There -- something has moved through the senate, some has moved through the House. And I think here`s the real question, we have a governor after eight years who now is leaving office. Is he going to leave as a political hack or a statesman, because he can veto those, and they can`t override it in the House.
And so the real question is I hope everybody in Michigan is going to be standing up and speaking loudly about the fact that 30 days after our election people want to know that their votes counted and that their voices were heard and that these guys aren`t going through dirty tricks take away people`s right to have an election that goes in the direction they want.
HAYES: There`s also one substantive thing, am I right that there was a ballot initiative about tipping and -- minimum wage for tipped workers and restaurant workers that, that won, correct?
STABENOW: Well, here`s where it`s a little tricky. Citizen petition, it was great, to raise the minimum wage and to have paid sick leave. It was a citizen referendum, and the legislature could adopt it on its own, which it chose to do, because it would pass on the ballot, and then it gave them the ability after the election to make changes.
And so now they are rolling back paid sick leave. They`re rolling back raising the minimum wage. I mean, this whole thing is really stunning and it`s all about taking away the will of the people in Michigan who want a better life, want to be able to have, you know, a higher wage, and paid sick time. They want to be able to have people focus on the things they care about -- health care, clean water. And it`s stunning.
HAYES: It`s like trying to -- it`s like when shake your iPhone you can get it to undo stuff, it`s like trying to do that to an election.
Senator Debbie Stabenow, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
HAYES: You are welcome.
Before we go, I got some exciting news today, TuneIn, listen to our podcast, Why is this Happening is one of the top five podcasts of 2018, thank you to everyone, that has been listening to us in our first year, we are so proud of what we have been able to do, from our very first episodes to our most recent one with David Roberts, which is all about who we trust and why. You can find them all on TuneIn or wherever you get your podcast.
This podcast, in particular, talks about the crisis of information and the crisis of facts that we encounter right now, which is something that I hear from people all over the place as I go around the country and I talk to folks.
That is All In for this evening.
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