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All In With Chris Hayes, Transcript, 7/11/2016

Guests: Stuart Stevens, Dan Rather, Heidi Przybyla, DeRay Mckesson; Heather McGee; Eugene O`Donnell

Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES Date: July 11, 2016 Guest: Stuart Stevens, Dan Rather, Heidi Przybyla, DeRay Mckesson; Heather McGee; Eugene O`Donnell


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --


HAYES: Seven days from Cleveland.

GOV. MARY FALLIN (R), OKLAHOMA: I think he is trying to campaign as a racial healer.

HAYES: The auditions for Trump`s veep continue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think women have to be able to choose.

HAYES: Tonight, where the search stands amidst the chaotic convention planning.

Then, my interview with the Black Lives Matter leader arrested in Baton Rouge.

And as political backlash grows --

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NYC MAYOR: When you say Black Lives Matter, that`s inherently racist.

HAYES: Tonight, what the Dallas police chief is getting right in the wake of last shooting`s shooting.

CHIEF DAVID BROWN, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT: We`re asking cops to do too much in this country.

HAYES: Plus, the plans for Bernie to endorse Hillary.


HAYES: And the Notorious RBG goes there on Donald Trump.


HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

We`re looking at live pictures of protests around the country tonight just under a week since Alton Sterling was killed by police in Louisiana, days since the fatal shootings of Philando Castile during a traffic stop in Minnesota, and also five police officers guarding a demonstration in Texas.

Today also marks exactly one week until the Republican convention in Cleveland where the party will formally select its nominee for president, and it`s coming at a time as you can tell, of crashing grief, anxiety, tension, anger in this nation after what can only be described as a traumatic week and after volatile and often dark year in politics unlike anything we`ve ever seen at least in a long while.

Right now, a lot of people are looking for a leadership and a path forward from this moment. So, next week presents a real opportunity for the GOP to frame its vision for the future and reintroduce the public to its presumptive nominee, Donald J. Trump.

But a week out, the convention still appears to be very much a work in progress. Not too long ago, on July 2nd, Trump tweeted, "The speakers slots at the Republican convention are totally filled with a long waiting list of those that want to speak. Wednesday release."

Wednesday rolled around, Trump tweeted that actually the speakers are coming out the following Thursday. Now, it`s Monday night and still no list. A handful of names were already public. "Politico" confirmed that House Speaker Paul Ryan is officially set to address the convention, joining Trump`s former rival Ted Cruz, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, and Iowa Senator Joni Ernst, according to reporter for "The Boston Globe."

Trump told GOP House members in a meeting last week, speakers will include his wife, Melania, his daughter Ivanka, and golf legend, Jack Nicklaus. While Nicklaus did endorse Trump last month, he said Mr. Nicklaus is traveling internationally in the next couple of weeks, touching down in no fewer than six countries. He will not be a attending any portion of the RNC.

Like Nicklaus, most of the Republican Party`s elder statesmen aren`t planning to attend the convention, much less speak, including the party`s last two presidents, both named Bush, its two previous presidential nominees Mitt Romney and John McCain. According to a tally from Talking Points Memo, 16 GOP senators are skipping it including the most vulnerable up for election, even John Kasich, Republican governor of Ohio, the state that is hosting the convention, does not plan to set foot inside the arena.

One person we can expect to be there, Trump`s pick for vice president when he told the "Washington Post" he was planning to announce in the next three to four days. According to Trump, quote, "someone respected by the establishment and liked by the establishment would be good for unification. I do like unification of the Republican Party."

Much more on Trump`s fateful choice later in the show. In the meantime, in the meantime, the GOP`s platform committee started meeting today to determine just what exactly what the party stands for. Among the issues debated today, according to various reports, calling for reversal of the Supreme Court decision on same sex marriage, rejecting two-state solutions for Israelis and Palestinians, declaring online pornography a public health crisis, and barring the use of food stamps to purchase junk food, which according to "Times" Zeke Miller devolved into the debate as to what counts as junk food, Oreos or chocolate-covered Oreos.

Reportedly, the platform committee is poised to endorse Trump`s border which along which along with the Muslim ban was about as close as Trump has come to sticking out a genuine policy position albeit one totally avoid of practical details. According to prominent Trump backer and former Texas Governor Rick Perry, Trump is not talking about a physical wall. Perry told Snapchat in an interview, quote, "It`s a technological wall, it`s a digital wall."

A week before the convention, the candidate is still trying show he`s capable of the gravitas expected of a major party`s standard bearer. After his response to the Orlando massacre horrified much of the political class, including many members of his own party, Trump`s reaction to the events in the past week has been remarkably restrained by his standards. He made his first extended comments on the subject in a scripted speech earlier today.


TRUMP: The attack on our Dallas police is an attack on our country. Our whole nation is in mourning and will be for a very long time. At the same time, the tragic deaths in Louisiana and Minnesota make clear that the work must be done to insure and a lot of work that Americans feel that their safety is protected. We have to do it. We have to get better -- better, sharper, smarter.


HAYES: Trump campaign even so far as released a copy of those remarks, complete footnotes. But as unlike the candidate who shows up for the campaign rallies and shoots from the hip, this version of Donald Trump was, well, far less compelling to watch.

Joining me now, MSNBC political analyst, former RNC chairman, Michael Steele, Stuart Stevens, chief strategist to the Romney campaign in 2012, author of the new novel about a brokered convention, "The Innocent Have Nothing to Fear."

Maybe -- I`ll start with you Stuart, because you`ve been through the process. I mean, from the outside, this does not look like this -- it looks like people are scrambling, that`s the way it looks from the outside. As someone who has experience, do you think that`s accurate?

STUART STEVENS, FORMER ROMNEY CAMPAIGN STRATEGIST: Sure. I don`t think it`s determinative, though. As -- Lorne Michaels used to have a sign up in "Saturday Night Live" saying, the showing goes on not because it`s great, because it`s 11:00 and it`s Saturday night. And they seemed to put on pretty good shows.

I think this will work out in the wash. They will have better some speakers than others. I think it will be okay.

HAYES: You don`t think there will be any serious -- there`s a court ruling today about these delegates unbound, there`s been this kind of steering of some sort of coup movement, some sort of floor action. Do you think that`s going to happen?

STEVENS: I have no idea. I was really surprised at the numbers of people who are opened to not having Donald Trump, the number of delegates, how close it was to those who want Donald Trump. It`s very tough to pull this off, a kind of stage coup. But unless something really happens between now and next Monday, I would doubt it would happen.

HAYES: Michael, I want to hone in on something. I was watching reporting by the platform committee. And it occurred to me that you`ve got this guy at the top of the ticket, whose policy ideas are fairly barebones. If I were to say what Donald Trump stands for, the two things I would say is, build a wall, Mexico pay for it, and the Muslim ban. I think those have been the two sort of high profile.

If you go to his website, there`s a few others, U.S.-China trade reform. But it just occurred to me, and this seems like a banal point, but a week from the convention, the Republican Party nominee has no education policy, zero, none. Like there`s all these areas normally the things a major party candidate does checking the boxes that are total blanks to fill in.

MICHAEL STEELE, FORMER RNC CHAIRMAN: Yes. This is different. It`s one of those feelings you get when you open up the Cracker Jack box and what is this prize.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: I think that`s what this convention in large is going to be. You know, I agree with Stuart, there may be surprises. But I`m not going to bet the house on it. Republicans will tend to be a little bit orderly about these things. The platform committee is meeting.

I understand the TPP language is on its way out. "America first" language is on its way in. So, Donald Trump is having his impact on the party. He`s shaping the party and molding it.

Will there be some plank on education? I don`t know. The question is, does it really matter in the overall scheme of things in the core message that he`s been articulated? He hasn`t talked about education as a substantive issue so far this campaign. Is there a real push for that?

HAYES: Well, Stuart, this occurs to me as I`ve been watching the Democratic platform fight emerge, is that it seems the Democratic platform from a political standpoint is essentially a free pass because Donald Trump has shown no ability to prosecute a policy case against anyone. So, you can imagine a candidate who could say this tuition plan will have these unintended consequences, the $15 minimum wage at the national level, here, I can marshal economic reasons why that might be a problem.

There`s -- that doesn`t exist in this campaign. We are running a campaign in the total absence of substantive policy debates.

STEVENS: Well, you know, I don`t think you get Donald Trump away from a teleprompter, I don`t think he can put together five coherent sentences to argue for policy. The Muslim ban is an absurd idea. How are you going to tell who`s Muslim and not Muslim.

But, I`d say, you know, Cat Stevens shows up and says, you know, I`m not a Muslim anymore, I`m a Quaker, what are you going to do? Ask him trivial questions about William Penn? It`s an absurd idea and as Governor Perry pointed out, the idea that we`re going to build this wall, much less Mexico is going to pay for it, you know, some massive wall.

I mean, this is sort of silly stuff you throw out in small time primaries that he skated on. I think the most important policy that Donald Trump has hit on and seems really to believe is on trade.

HAYES: That`s right.

STEELE: Right.

STEVENS: And he`s for a 45 percent tariff, which no one`s ever been before.

HAYES: Michael, this point about of sort of where we are on policy or lack of policy, I mean, it gets to this question about what exactly the Republican Party as party is running on this year, right? That`s part of the issue. You have this cycle of senators out of there. You got this platform fight, you got this sui generis character of Donald Trump, but usually what the convention is, is partly kind of like this is message, this is what our party stands for, it stands for A, B, C, D, is there going to be any answer to that?

STEELE: You articulated that very well. Like, what? No.

But, Chris, here`s the rub. This has not been that election. This has not been the election about policy, this has not been a big driver, really, on either side.

I mean, the Democrats have focused more on it than Republicans have, for sure, no doubts about that. But I`m very curious, as we roll into the fall, will you marry up a campaign more Seinfeldian in the Trump campaign, a whole lot of nothing. And then, the other side, Clinton campaign, here`s my 12-point plan on fill in the blank --


STEELE: -- where the public sides itself up because this has not been that kind of election so far.

HAYES: I am just so curious to see how this shakes out, if the campaign about nothing can continue or how long it can continue.

Michael Steele and Stuart Stevens, thank you both.

STEELE: All right.

STEVENS: Thank you.

HAYES: I`m joined now by former "CBS Evening News" anchor Dan Rather, now managing editor and anchor of "Dan Rather Reports" on AXS TV.

Mr. Rather, you`ve covered more than a few conventions in your time. What do you think about -- what are you thinking as we go into these conventions? There was a period everyone said conventions have become essentially four-day infomercials, there`s no intrigue, there`s chaos, nothing unexpected.

Do you think that chain will be broken this year?

DAN RATHER, FORMER ANCHOR, CBS EVENING NEWS : I have no idea. It is true modern conventions have mostly been infomercials, that the balance of power switched after 1968. Before 1968, conventions had the balance of power, after 1968, caucuses and primaries. But I do expect them to be big infomercials.

But given what`s preceded to these conventions, I`m open minded. Anything can happen and expect the unexpected.

I will say that with the Republican convention in Cleveland, there`s more unpredictability with it, because as you pointed out, Donald Trump has the wall and the opposition to Muslim immigration to the two main anchors he stands for. Beyond that, it gets very confusing.

However, I think he caught a break today, to tell you the truth, the last few days, because with the Democratic platform, Hillary Clinton has at least in the abstract been pulled to the left. Fortunately, for her, Trump is so far to the right this pull to the left may not affect her as it might under other circumstances. That`s something to look out for. The perception is she moves definitely to the left in order to accommodate Bernie Sanders and his followers and that gives Trump an opening.

HAYES: You know, you say that in the context of normal politics, right? What I was saying, these positions are far to the left, right? You can imagine a Republican making that case.

Have you ever covered a general election or election in this case of Trump particularly that has been so devoid of this kind of substantive rhetoric?

RATHER: Well, you`d have to go back to the George Wallace campaign. People tend to forgot George Wallace was at least mildly successful in 1968, less so in `72.

HAYES: Won a number of states.

RATHER: But that`s the closest we`ve come to having this kind of campaign. It`s been almost 50 years ago but 1968 is the closest to what we`re experiencing in 2016.

Again, most Americans alive today were not alive in 1968 and those that were don`t remember. The country really felt wrecked at the time. Anti- war demonstrations, assassinations not only of President John Kennedy, but Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, there were race riots in the streets.

So, this will be the closest parallel we have, not an exact parallel by any stretch of the imagination. There was no social media in 1968, that made a big difference here.

Getting back to the platform for a moment, it occurs to me, having said, that I think the Democratic platform now as it is formed, jerks Hillary Clinton some what to the left. I operate under the creed of beware of pastries, easy credit and politicians` promises particularly on platforms.

HAYES: Yes, the big question for all the Sanders supporters who worked very hard and we will talk about later in the show to make those commitments is what exactly, if that check will clear once -- should she be elected?

RATHER: Well, if the past is prologue, the party platforms don`t amount to much. They`re about as useless as old nail clippings, once in office, sometimes a candidate will give a slight bow to the platform. But you and I are going to make a lot about the platforms that the Republicans and Democrats come out with. But going forward, it is not going to amount to much in the long poll.

HAYES: Yes. We will see, unless there are people who effectively make it amount to something in terms of how they pressure.

RATHER: Exactly.

HAYES: Dan Rather, a pleasure.

RATHER: Thank you very much, Chris. Thanks for having me. s

HAYES: Still to come, protests around the country over the police shootings lead to mass arrests, including Black Lives Matter organizer DeRay McKesson who joins me ahead. But first, the latest twist in the ever evolving list of potential running mates for Donald Trump, where the search stands for his number two right after this break.


RATHER: Donald Trump says he`ll decide on his V.P. pick by the end of the week, this coming after a whirlwind 72 hour news boomlet that retired Lieutenant General Michael Flynn might be on the presumptive nominee short list. Flynn is a registered Democrat. Friday, "The Washington Post" reported Donald Trump is leading towards the idea of a military figure that after his contentious with the GOP lawmakers last Thursday on the Hill, he`s more open than ever to a non-politician, even going so far as to say the potential ticket out loud Trump-Flynn.

Then, yesterday, Flynn said this when asked about his position on abortion.


RET. LT. GEN. MICHAEL FLYNN: I think for women, these are difficult issues, I think women have to be able to choose what they -- sort of the right of choice, but I think that`s a difficult legal decision that -- and I think that women are so important in that decision-making process.

REPORTER: Same sex marriage?

FLYNN: They`re the ones that have to decide whether to bring that child up or not.


HAYES: His answer prompted backlash from abortion opponents as you might imagine. So, today, Flynn tried to clarify, telling FOX News he`s a, quote, "pro-life Democrat".

Still the damage seems to be done. Donald Trump gave a 25-minute phone interview with "The Washington Post" this morning saying how he`s leaning way from a military V.P., saying of his choices, quote, "I have five people including the general. I do like the military, but I do very much like the political."

Some of those political sources have had audition of sorts, Bob Corker held a rally with Trump last Tuesday before withdrawing his name from consideration. Then, on Wednesday, Newt Gingrich joined Donald Trump at a rally in Cincinnati. Today, Chris Christie joined Donald Trump on the campaign trail in Virginia, Beach. And rounding up the list, Indiana Governor Mike Pence gets his shot tomorrow. Right now, he`s probably the front-runner although this year, who the heck knows?

Joining me now, Heidi Przybyla, senior political reporter for "USA Today."

Heidi, let`s talk about the sort of field as it stands right now. It does seem for all the speculation that cast of characters, it seems like there`s some agreement that is who is in the final running.

HEID PRZYBYLA, USA TODAY: And a lot of these names are actually names that we`ve been hearing all along. Now that he tells us it`s down to five, you throw a couple of wild cards in there and one of them is Flynn. So, you take him out and you`re down to this list of about three.

I agree with your assessment that Pence looks to be probably among the most desirable of the three. He brings the social conservative pedigree that Donald Trump is really looking for going into this convention and just into this race in general to try and unify the party.

As you know, he`s very strong anti-abortion, remind your viewers he signed that 2015 bill on LGBT services denying -- allowing businesses to deny services to LBGT individuals which became kind of a watershed fight for a lot of people on the religious right. So, he`s looking to be, you know, potentially one of the topics here.

And part of the speculation is being driven by the fact that Donald Trump has spent so much time with him. He spent time with him over the Fourth of July holiday, and he`ll be back out there again tomorrow, kind of an unplanned last minute scheduled event that was put onto the calendar.

HAYES: You know, it strikes me, though, that also part of it, when you saw the Bob Corker, there was a sort of a crescendo of Corker talking and we all watched that Bob Corker event, it`s so evident that Corker, A, did not want to be there. Trump gets him to give remarks and begins by saying, I wasn`t going to say anything. He flounders around with saying something positive about him and says his family seems kind of nice.

It strikes me that they haven`t -- he hasn`t done events together with Pence yet, and I do think for someone like Trump who is so focused on performance and the crowds, that is a kind of final test whoever it is going to be, that they can go in and amp up one of these crowds.

PRZYBYLA: Well, the chemistry is always important. But here`s the big difference between Corker and Pence. I think Pence may actually want this.

Look at the precarious position pence is in back home. It`s very unclear he would win re-election as governor. And what would that be, that would be the end of his political career whereas if he went onto a ticket with Trump, even if it were a losing ticket, that would be an elevation of his national profile and put him in the lineup for a 2020 run.

HAYES: This is important because the number of people Donald Trump can select from is fairly limited because of people`s fears about their political future. Chris Christie is essentially a lame duck in New Jersey. He`s so far under water in approval ratings. Pence is also under water, Newt Gingrich is 73 and I don`t think has a tremendous political future.

I mean, those are sort of the people that`s kind of who you get to choose from, because someone with a bright future in the Republican Party, it is a very high leverage bet to attach yourself to Donald Trump.

PRZYBYLA: Right. Gingrich, you have to put Gingrich in that camp. He really wants this. But all the reporting we`re seeing now from over the weekend, for example, Trump attended this fun razor and apparently reportedly said he himself thinks that Gingrich has, quote, "issues" and that would come to light pretty soon in terms of the Democratic opposition file that would come to bear on Newt Gingrich. So, I think that`s something also -- if Trump had his druthers, I think he`s signaling to us takes Newt Gingrich to the second tier.

HAYES: I want to play Mary Fallin doing her best to audition for the role. I don`t think she`s on the short list. Oklahoma Governor May Fallin, she has better approval ratings in her home state than others. Take a listen.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Do you think Donald Trump has campaigned as racial healer?

GOV. MARY FALLIN (R), OKLAHOMA: I think he is trying to campaign as a racial healer. I think that has been part of his message.


HAYES: Almost got through that sound byte unscathed. But I don`t think -- we don`t think Fallin is in that finalist.

PRZYBYLA: I`ve seen her at the bottom of some lists. I hate to say this as a woman, I think that`s kind of a gender pick, here she is, she`s a governor, she`s a woman, she`s strongly anti-abortion, let`s put her on the list. I don`t think she`s really one of the top tier candidates.

HAYES: Heidi Przybyla, thanks for your time. Appreciate it.

Still to come, one of the most powerful and popular people in our government has added their name to the list of people ready to lead the country in the event of a Donald Trump presidency. That story is just ahead.


HAYES: Tomorrow, President Obama will visit Dallas to meet with some of the relatives of the police officers slain in Thursday`s attack, and to join former President George W. Bush in speaking at an interfaith memorial service.

In an intensely personal news conference this morning, Dallas Police Chief David Brown said he was not sure how he would make it through the week and he lamented the expectations placed on police officers.


BROWN: Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve. Not enough mental health fun funding, let the cop handle it. Not enough drug conviction fun funding, let`s give to it the cops. Here in Dallas, we have a loose dog problem. Let`s have the cops chase loose do dogs. You know, schools fail, give it to the cops.

Seventy percent of the African-American community has been raised by single women, let`s give to it the cops to solve that as well.

That`s too much to ask. Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.


HAYES: If there is one point of emerging consensus between police critics and public themselves is precisely that.

Up next, former NYPD officer would be here to discuss what task police have been given that they shouldn`t have. Stay with us.


HAYES: You`re looking at some protests in Atlanta for, I think, probably the third or fourth night in a row there are street protests under the banner of the phrase, Black Lives Matter. Those three protests, of course, been happening all across the country last night, the night before and last night. And it seems there has been a state of perpetual backlash from Black Lives Matter from the beginning. And after the events of last week, and particularly after the brutal murder of those five cops, some were at it again.


RUDY GIULIANI, FRM. MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: And when you say black lives matter, that`s inherently racist.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think their argument.

GIULIANI: Black lives matter, white lives matter, Asian lives matter, Hispanic lives matter. That`s anti-American and it`s racist.


HAYES: As a phrase, black lives matter has had a remarkable degree of resonance across politics and culture like very few political formulations in recent memory. It inspires pride and defiance, criticism, debate, even contemplation.


UNIDENITIFIED MALE: It is time for this nation to stand up with one voice and to condemn and shun this movement called Black Lives Matter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it`s ridiculous that here in America all lives matterhas now become politically incorrect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think actually Carly Fiorina got it right this week, Eric, that individuals matter. We`re a country of individuals.

WAYNE ROGERS, WAYNE ROGERS & CO: What do you mean all lives matter doesn`t matter? All lives do matter.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think the reason that the organizers used the phrase "black lives matter," was not because they were suggesting nobody else`s lives matter, rather, what they were suggesting was there is a specific problem that is happening in the African-American community that`s not happening in other communities.


HAYES: But beneath it all there has also been an interesting conversation happening around what to do about the problem of policing in America specifically.

And joining me now, Heather McGee, president of Demos Action, and former New York City Police Officer, Eugene O`Donnell, professor of law in police studies at John J. College.

It is remarkable to me how much this conversation quickly like even on Facebook threads veers into the phrase, like this phrase.

When you see -- when you hear people make the argument that Rudy Guiliani has made, how do you respond to that?

HEATHER MCGEE, DEMOS ACTION: Well first, I think it`s important to note our country`s hearts are big enough to hold grief for the men and women who were injured and hurt in the Dallas police force and the daily assaults and often killing of unarmed black men by police officers. Our hearts are big enough for that.

HAYES: well said.

MCGEE; And I think it`s important to note that our hearts are big enough to understand that while you`re grieving at your cousin`s funeral saying my cousin`s life mattered, if someone comes up and says, hey, what about my uncle who`s sick, that`s actually not that relevant, right.

We are talking about in this country black lives mattering not just because it happens to be what is visible to us on social media right now, but because of the founding of this nation, black people were not people. Our ancestors were not people. They were in fact property. And so that is how our economy was built, that is how our democracy was built. And so this nation has unfinished business to do to say that black lives actually matter beyond what they were first created to do in this country, which is actually to benefit white land owning men.

HAYES: I think, Heather -- Eugene, I think one of the things I have come to believe in the process of reporting on this and writing on this, I think that there is a way that people interpret the critique of policing that puts policing in some special category, right? So, it`s like there`s American life and then there`s policing and policing is especially toxic, especially racist.

And one of the things I think -- I think that`s wrong actually as a critique, right. I mean one of the things I`ve heard some of the Black Lives Matter folks say policing isn`t that different from other American institutions. It is the institution which people are entrusted with committing violence in the state and having a gun.

EUGENE O`DONNELL, JOHN J. COLLEGE: You know, it is important to say Rudy Guiliani is in a special category. This is a person that made a study out of the most divisive inflammatory rhetoric with the African-American community and sadly, is a two term mayor. So, we`re not talking about crazy people speaking in the recesses of special media or somebody saying, you kill one of us, we`ll kill two of you in a crowd, we`re talking about somebody who ever time he speaks on race hits a new low. I`m not even and African-American, I find one of the things, because I know his playbook that I find particularly offensive is when he pretends to be talking to the African-American community, when he`s really talking at the African- American community and has nothing to say to them.

He has poisoned race relations in New York City almost irreparably. So, we`re trying to get a handle on this. He is one of the most extremist, divisive people -- I think I remember when he contemplated running for senate against Mrs. Clinton, I believe the polls showed the African- American community he had zero percent. David Duke would have 1 percent. That`s the kind of mayor he was.

And people who saw him in action -- and we can talk about how he destroyed the police profession as a labor mayor. But people of good faith should be calling this guy out. And what`s scary is we go into -- we have people running for high office here. If they said what they`re saying out loud on Facebook as cops they`d be terminated tomorrow morning.

We have to come to grips -- and the media is not a corrective. There`s no -- these are people that have been successful saying these things over and over again.

HAYES: Can i follow up on that and get a response, Heather. When you say -- when you destroy the police profession, I think that sync up with something chief David Brown, Chief David Brown was talking about, which is there was a tremendous amount from the policy on down to push officers to do more. That meant more citations, it meant more, quote, proactive policing, broken windows policing, it meant that assuming officers were lazy and having them do more. And the more they did, then that was -- they were doing their job best.

And a lot of that did start here in New York City -- Eugene.

O`DONNELL: Oh, I`m sorry, Chris. Yes, it did, absolutely. This was -- listen to Chief Brown. It`s so instructive. A white chief can`t quite do what he can do but he can come very close. The difference we have humanistic, heart-to- heart, concerning conversation with people that`s empathetic and really grasps issues. There is an unlimited appetite for that in inner city America.

But what we saw during -- with the broken windows policing -- and by the way, this was imposed by think tanks, never really validated. A lot of it was quackery, to be honest with you. not the idea the police proactively are important, the idea that there was some science to it, that if you did 100,000 stops, the city was a certain level of safety and 200,000, it was twice as safe, that was quackery.

And that was impose -- and by the way, some people would be very surprised if they talked to cops, a lot of old time cops actually would have resisted this whole simplistic thing. It was imposed on them by political people and outsiders. This was never something the police came up with.

HAYES: Heather, this is the key thing, because we focus on the moment that a person`s life ends understandably, right. But that is the small tip of a huge spear, which is zooming out to think about how often do we require citizens and police to interact and what do we want the police to do in a broad sense, which is do we want them writing, pulling people over for taillights and writing tickets, do we want them -- what do we want them to do? That to me seems the fundamental question here.

O`DONNELL: And I think the desire for safety and justice and community, real community policing has been one of the central cries of the Black Lives Matter movement. What that has been so contraposed with is the reality of mass incarceration and mass criminalization, where you have police departments using working class people, black people, but also other people of color and working class white people, to fund the revenue for their systems.

How deeply messed up is that? And that`s one of the ways that trickle down economics and austerity actually has led to the overpolicing of communities.

HAYES: All right, Heather McGee and Eugene O`Donnell, thank you both. Appreciate that.

All right, you`re looking at some images, disturbing images from Baton Rouge this weekend. Still to come, Black Lives Matter organizer DeRay Mckesson will be here to give a firsthand account of the protests over the weekend in Baton Rouge. Over 100 people were arrested. He was one of them. Stay with us.



OBAMA: Of course, every time we have a presidential election our friends to the north have to brace for an exodus of Americans who swear they will move to Canada if the guy from the other party wins. And so -- but typically it turns out fine.


HAYES: Thing one tonight, it`s a trope of American politics that if a certain person gets elected then there`s a whole group of Americans who are going to leave the country, some willing to head to our neighbors to the north Canada. This election cycle is no different, after all, as one Twitter user pointed out Canada appears to be the opposite of America these days.

And on super Tuesday that became abundantly clear as Donald Trump won seven out of 11 states and seemed to have taken Chris Christie hostage, so it wasn`t surprising to see that U.S.-based Google searches for move to Canada, most popular Canadian immigration related search term, reached their highest point in more than 10 years that evening.

But it`s not just Canada facing a potential influx of American citizens if Trump becomes president, celebrities like Miley Cyrus have mulled over leaving the country destination unknown at this point if Trump took the White House. Jon Stewart has been more specific in his plans, contemplating a move from planet Earth.

And now another prominent person arguably one of the most powerful people in our government is threatening to move away if Donald Trump wins in November. Thing two, the identity of that person in 60 seconds.


HAYES: So, lots of people have pledged to or at least expressed interest in moving to another country if Donald Trump is elected president. Now, a Supreme Court justice is adding her voice to the mix.

In a rare and extremely candid interview with the New York Times, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg did not hold back on her opinion of the presumptive Republican nominee: "I can`t imagine what this place will be -- I can`t imagine what the country would be -- with Donald Trump as our president," she said. "For the country, it would be four years, for the court it could be -- I don`t want to contemplate that."

Justice Ginsburg then added something her late husband would have to say about the situation, "now, it`s time for us to move to New Zealand."

If she ever actually followed through on that, the Supreme C ourt would be down to just seven justices thanks to the Senate`s -- well, Republicans in the Senate`s refusal to act on a replacement for the late Justice Antonin Scalia.

Judge Merrick Garland, nominated by President Obama 118 days ago is still awaiting for even a hearing. Justice Ginsburg told The Time that he would be a great colleague, saying, "I think he`s about as well qualified as any nominee to this court." And when asked if the Senate had an obligation to assess Judge Garland`s qualifications, her answer was immediate, "that`s their job," she said.


HAYES: After a long and sometimes brutal primary battle, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders are finally going to appear at a campaign event together tomorrow morning in Portsmouth, New Hhampshire. And he`s expected to endorse her after a recent agreement to a number of issues on the Democratic Party platform.

At least one area of controversy still remains after the Sanders camp lost an attempt to have explicit opposition to the TransPacific Partnership trade agreement out of the party platform draft on Saturday night even though both Clinton and Sanders officially opposed TPP.


CORNEL WEST: And let`s be clear if it were not for the Sanders campaign we wouldn`t even be having this kind of debate. Let us not be deceived the tentions between the corporate wing and populist wing of this party is one in which we don`t want window dressing in talking about working people, we want opposition that`s concrete. We want unity, but we want it real. We don`t want it on the backs of working people, we want opposition of TPP in this platform.


HAYES: One clear area of agreement between the Clinton and Sanders camps, a need for criminal justice and policing reform. The daft platform includes a commitment to ending mass incarceration, investment in training for police officers on issues of deescalation and the appropriate use of force.

Back in a moment.


HAYES: Across the country this weekend, hundreds were arrested in ongoing protests over police shootings of black citizens. Largely peaceful protesters blocked roadways in several cities including St. Paul, Minnesota. Philando Castile was fatally shot by a police officer in a suburb of St. Paul last Wednesday.

On Saturday around midnight St. Paul police deployed smoke bombs as protesters threw objects, refused to leave interstate 94. Police reported there were 21 officers injured, one officer suffering a spinal fracture after police say a concrete block was dropped on his head.

More than a 100 protesters were arrested, with 46 adults being charged with third degree riot, a gross misdemeanor.

In Baton Rouge where Alton Sterling was shot by officers while pinned to the ground last Tuesday, protesters there were confronted by a militarized police force reminiscent of scene in Ferguson in 2014 -- police using tactical vehicles, riot shields and gas masks.

On Twitter, video was posted that appeared to show an officer with her weapon raised in the direction of protesters. More than 100 people were arrested in Baton Rouge with police saying they confiscated multiple guns, largely blaming protesters who came from out of town for causing problems.

Among those arrested were nurse Ayesha Evans, charged with obstruction of a roadway and seen here surrounded by heavily fortified police in an instantly iconic image.

Also arrested, prominent Black Lives Matter activist DeRay Mckesson, who I will speak with shortly.

Perhaps the most intense scene occurred as SWAT teams ascended on the front lawn of a private home where hundreds had gathered with the permission of the person who lives there.

Some report police forced them onto the street and then arrested them for being on the street.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is private property. You cannot do this. Back up!



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s private property! This is private property.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god. Oh, my god. Oh, my god.


HAYES: Joining me now, civil rights activist DeRay Mckesson.

DeRay, tell me about what went down the night that you were arrested.

DERAY MCKESSON, BLACK LIVES MATTER ACTIVIST: So, in Baton Rouge, what we continue to see, what we saw in that video you just showed, and what we saw the night that I was arrested is the police provoking protesters so they can create a context of conflict that they can exploit.

So, when I was arrested earlier in the day, protesters were just standing at the barricade, no street was blocked, nobody doing anything and the police just came out and started engaging in snatch and grabs so that they could get people riled up.

And when I think about my own arrest, the officers gave me an order and I actually followed the order that time and I was arrested nonetheless.

What we know to be true here in Baton Rouge and definitely in towns like Ferguson and other cities is that the police are provoking the protesters with the hopes of creating a conflict, so that then they can say the protesters are violent.

But in Baton Rouge the only violent people I have seen have been the police.

HAYES: The images out of Baton Rouge have really looked a lot like Ferguson. I mean, obviously, there`s been police response to protests around the country, but I haven`t quite seen anything quite as militarized -- the large vehicles, the very intense gear, the gas masks, I haven`t seen anything quite like that in a while since Ferguson.

What do you think is driving that?

MCKESSON: Yes. So, I think that in Baton Rouge the police are trying to intimidate protesters so that they will be afraid to speak out and the people will feel like there`s nothing they can do. And I`ll tel you from sitting in that cell for 16, 17 hours is that if anything, the arrests are actually just making more people confident they have to speak out, that they must act and they have to push back on this police department that is going about their business unchecked.

And we know that there`s no group of public servants, there`s no group of citizens in the country that should be able to operate outside the confines of the law. And here in Baton Rouge and in other cities, the police can essentially do whatever they want and the law doesn`t matter. I`m hopeful that the DOJ will intervene and not only the current investigation in the death of Alton Sterling but they`ll expand that to look at the policies and practices of this police department here in Baton Rouge.

HAYES: Yeah, there have been complaints in the past, this story from `Nola about Baton Rouge state troopers from other states who come into Baton Rouge in the wake of hurricane Katrina, one state trooper from michigan said Baton Rouge policemen tried to thank him for his help by letting him, quote, beat down a prisoner. That is not my allegation, that`s the allegation of a fellow member of law enforcement who had gone there.

What have you heard from the folks on the ground there from Baton Rouge about their experiences with the police department independent of what happened on that night to Alton Sterling?

MCKESSON: Yes. So, you know, we had a lot of time to talk for those 17 hours that I was in jail and heard story after story of people talking about getting pulled over, about their property being taken, about being hit, about all of these things that we`ve heard both here in Baton Rouge and across the country.

And I think that there`s a breaking point that`s happening in Baton Rouge where people are like I`m not going to be silent anymore. And I think that that is at the heart of what protest is. Protest is the idea of telling the truth in public. And what we see in Baton Rouge is people finding their voice and using that voice to tell the truth about the terrors of the police that they continue to see in the -- are inflicted upon them daily. And they`re saying we`re not going to let this go unchecked. And I think that`s important. It was important in Ferguson. It`s important in Baton Rouge.

And again I think that the president has an onus to direct the DOJ to really do a deep, thorough analysis of this police department.

HAYES: Quickly, I`m curious what your response to Chief David Brown in Dallas talking about his response to protesters that were -- you know, we`re accepting resumes. You should come apply and be a police officer, which I`m not -- what do you think of that?

MCKESSON: Yeah, I don`t have to be in a profession to have expectations for that profession. I am not going to be a doctor. I`m not a doctor. I have expectations about how my doctor performs. I am not a police officer, but I have expectations about how police officers -- especially given the immense power they have to take lives -- how they perform in communities.

So, I think that the sentiment is a funny sentiment from the police department. I think it`s a cheeky thing to say. I think it is wholly dismissive and misses the point of police accountability that we have been pressing for two years.

HAYES: All right, DeRay Mckesson it`s a pleasure. Thank you very much.

MCKESSON: Good to see you.

HAYES: That is All In for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.