Summary
Judge rules NY AG can question Trump, Son & Daughter. Trump adult children say they`ll likely appeal ruling. Biden set to talk with NATO, allies tomorrow. Fears of Ukraine invasion rises as shelling escalates. Blinken makes surprise visit to U.N. House GOP leader backs Cheney opponent in WY primary.
Transcript
JOE BIDEN, (D) U.S. PRESIDENT: We need some kind of tomorrow. We need some kind of tomorrow."
Places like Lorain have a lot of proud yesterdays. Now you`re going to have some brighter tomorrows and because of all of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Toni Morrison and President Biden get tonight`s "LAST WORD." THE 11TH HOUR starts now.
CHRIS JANSING, MSNBC HOST: Good evening once again, I`m Chris Jansing. Day 394 of the Biden administration. Donald Trump and his two eldest children lost their bid to avoid answering questions under oath about the Trump organization`s business practices.
Late today, a New York judge ruled that New York Attorney General Letitia James can question them as part of her civil investigation. In a strongly worded eight-page ruling. The judge denied the Trump`s efforts to block the A.G. subpoenas, writing, "a state attorney general commences investigating a business entity, uncovers copious evidence of possible financial fraud and wants to question under oath several of the entity`s principles including its namesake. She has the clear right to do so."
The judge added Trump and his children must be deposed within the next three weeks. Donald Trump`s lawyer responded with a statement that read in part, "Yet another politically motivated witch hunt. The court had no interest in engaging in impartial discourse." Ivanka and Donald Trump Jr. say they will likely appeal. In a statement, the New York Attorney General said, "Today justice prevailed, no one is above the law."
Meanwhile, we`re still following important developments about the crisis on Ukraine`s border. The United States says Moscow shows no signs of pulling Russian troops back. The White House said tonight the President Biden will hold a call with transatlantic leaders tomorrow about that Russian true build up.
Earlier today, the President offered this warning about the standoff.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: They`ve moved more troops in, number one. Number two, we have reason to believe that they are engaged in a false-flag operation to have an excuse to go in. Every indication we have is they`re prepared to go into Ukraine, attack Ukraine. My sense is this will happen within the next several days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: A sudden escalation in shelling in eastern Ukraine has heightened fears of a Russian attack. NBC News Chief Foreign Correspondent Richard Engel is on the ground in Ukraine tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD ENGEL, NBC NEWS CHIEF FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: The stage is set for conflict. The fear is that a significant new rise in shelling along the front line could trigger a war. Ukrainian police and military say Russian backed separatists, attacked Ukrainian towns and villages damaging a kindergarten. No children were hurt. Police released a video of them being evacuated to safety.
Ukraine accused Russia of using the separatists that controls to provoke the Ukrainian military into responding with force and thereby giving Russia an excuse to send its troops across the border.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: With all of that as a backdrop, Secretary of State, Antony Blinken made an unscheduled stop at the U.N. today on his way to meet with U.S. allies in Germany. He laid out in stark and chilling detail how Russia might create a pretext for an attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY BLINKEN, BIDEN NOMINEE FOR SECRETARY OF STATE: It could be a fabricated so called terrorist bombing inside Russia. The invented discovery of the mass grave, a staged drone strike against civilians, or a fake even a real attack using chemical weapons. Russia may describe this event as ethnic cleansing or a genocide, making a mockery of a concept that we in this chamber do not take lightly. Russian missiles and bombs will drop across Ukraine. Communications will be jammed, cyberattacks will shut down key Ukrainian institutions. After that, Russian tanks and soldiers will advance on key targets that have already been identified and mapped out in detailed plans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: The State Department said tonight, Secretary Blinken will meet with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov in Europe next week provided there is no Russian invasion. This comes as the U.S. says Russia today expelled its second most senior official at the American Embassy in Moscow, Bart Gorman. The State Department called the move "unprovoked and an escalatory step."
On the domestic front, the Senate passed a short term funding bill avoiding a government shutdown that would have taken effect Friday night. That bill keeps the government running through March 11.
And over in the House, Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy has endorsed Harriet Hageman, the Trump backed candidate who`s challenging Liz Cheney in the Wyoming primary. Cheney, of course, is Vice Chair of the January 6 Committee and was removed from the number three post in House GOP leadership last year after voting for Trump`s impeachment and is being openly critical of the president.
[23:05:04]
With that, let`s bring in our -- the former president. With that, let`s bring in our leadoff guests on this Thursday night, Jackie Alemany, MSNBC Contributor and Political Reporter for The Washington Post and author of the papers morning newsletter, The Early 202. Professor Melissa Murray of NYU Law School, she was a law clerk for Sonia Sotomayor on the federal bench before her nomination to the Supreme Court, and Michael Crowley, is Diplomatic Correspondent at the New York Times.
Good evening, thanks for being here to all of you. So Melissa, we read through some of the judge`s ruling on Trump. In my non legal term, it was pretty brutal, from copious evidence of possible financial fraud to George Orwell and alternative facts, what stands out to you after reading it?
MELISSA MURRAY, NYU LAW PROFESSOR: Well, again, this was a fiery proceeding in open court today, and it was matched by a fiery writing by the judge. But what seems clear here is that the judge made clear that the Attorney General of New York has a right to subpoena these witnesses given the evidence that she`s currently amassed in her civil investigation.
The Trump has to had wanted to sit for an under oath grand jury proceeding likely because under New York law, grand jury proceedings and those who participate in them as witnesses are offered immunity, that would shield them from criminal liability going forward for certain acts that were revealed to the grand jury. But, of course, a civil deposition doesn`t do that. And what it does do is perhaps provide evidence that could later be used possibly by the Manhattan D.A. Alvin Bragg, if he were to use some of that evidence in his criminal investigation.
So the real issue going forward for the Trump`s is what to do now. Do you actually sit with these subpoenas and answer questions? Or do you take the Fifth Amendment and plea use your right against self-incrimination in these particular terms, as Eric Trump did earlier last year, so lots in this particular writing from the court and lots of different pathways for the Trump`s to take going forward. None of them particularly good.
JANSING: Yeah. And Melissa, reportedly, or Trump took the Fifth 500 times. So again, as you said, we would see if they do that, of course, it all depends on any appeals. If there are appeals, do you think they have a chance of being successful?
MURRAY: So I`m clear, this is a pretty firm writing, and the judge seemed to be on solid ground. But obviously, anything could happen. But I would be very unlikely, in my view. And I think what we really are going to see is a choice between the lesser of two evils sitting for this deposition, possibly cleaning the fifth and insulating yourself from criminal liability, but maybe opening yourself to civil liability, because anything that you refuse to say and if you plead the Fifth, you`re not refusing -- you`re refusing to say things. And that can be used as an adverse inference against you in a civil case. So there are not a lot of great options here. And so it looks like this is another stunning defeat in a string of legal defeats for the Trump family.
JANSING: Michael, let`s talk about the other big story dominating today, the White House has been leading hard -- leaning hard on diplomacy in this Ukraine crisis. But then things really ratcheted up today, Blinken makes this emergency trip to the U.N. What do we know about how that came about? How significant do you see it in terms of everything else that`s happened over the last 24 hours or so?
MICHAEL CROWLEY, THE NEW YORK TIMES DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, thanks, Chris. That was a little bit dramatic. Secretary Blinken made a basically last minute decision to attend this United Nations Security Council session which the Russians had actually called. So they wound up unwittingly giving Blinken, a platform. The Russians wanted to talk about the long running conflict within Ukraine, which is separate from this threatened Russian invasion that could come from outside of Ukraine. First, since 2004, the Russians have been fomenting a separatist rebellion in eastern Ukraine. Russians wanted to talk about that. They`re looking for leverage in ongoing negotiations to resolve that. Some people think that this troop buildup is actually all kind of a power play to give the Russians more leverage in those talks.
But Secretary Blinken basically crashed that little party and said, we need to be talking about the bigger issue here, this Russian intimidation of Ukraine with a massive military buildup. And it was part of what has been a really interesting, you know, a public offensive by the Biden administration to take the initiative, try to put pressure on Vladimir Putin who has the kind of strategic leverage here.
Ukraine is his own backyard. He`s got the enormous military forces on its border, but to try to use essentially, public communications by calling out Putin saying we know what you`re going to do, our intelligence is exposing your plan to false flag operations. And in this case, going to the United Nations and putting the pressure on and saying, you are threatening world peace. The United Nations should be treating this as a grave emergency. The stakes here are high. And what are you going to do I thought most interesting was that he called on the Russians to basically say, look, you`re talking about deescalating, just come out and say it, declared that you`re not going to invade Ukraine and start pulling your troops back right now once and for all, let`s settle this. Russians obviously did not take him up on that offer and I have to say it`s not looking good right now
[23:10:10]
JANSING: Yeah. And I want to play for you, Michael, what we heard today from the U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. on this network a little earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: I also have made the point over and over again to our colleagues that this is not a Cold War confrontation between Russia and the United States that this is about the U.N. Charter, is about the values that we all have signed on to, to be members of the Security Council, and that they couldn`t sit on the sidelines on this. They can`t take a middle road.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: I`m curious what you think, Michael, of her comments. I mean, clearly, we heard from the President. And he talked in, you know, very straightforward terms about the real implications, the economic implications, the implications for world energy supplies, but there`s also a bigger picture, right, a message that the U.S. wants to get out, both to Russia and to the rest of the world.
CROWLEY: That`s right. And part of what struck me about those comments, I think it was a reminder, again, I mentioned this sort of leverage imbalance here where Vladimir Putin has the military forces right there on Ukraine`s border, it`s right next to his country, the United States is far away. But what we have is soft power, we have economic power. We have power to persuade around the world. And we have an extraordinary alliance system. And Russia really lacks most of those things. And so I think what the Biden administration is trying to do is leverage that, leverage its alliances, leverage its economic power, and basically try to rally the world against Vladimir Putin, isolate him, basically say to Putin, you don`t have as many friends as we do. You don`t have the economic leverage that we do. Sure, you have a lot of tanks and soldiers on Ukraine`s borders, but this is how we can really punish you. So right now, it`s a high stakes game where both sides are trying to figure out who has the advantage. And I think the U.S. is doing a pretty good job of working its own.
JANSING: Let`s talk domestic, Jackie, Liz Cheney. She hasn`t just been a part of the committee. She`s been leading the charge on the January 6 committee, she has been very visible, very vocal, which of course, has made her a target of Republicans. How big a deal is it that Kevin McCarthy is backing her primary opponent?
JACKIE ALEMANY, THE WASHINGTON POST POLITICAL REPORTER: Yeah, Chris. You know, I think it`s a big deal in the sense that it shows the lasting power that the former president has on the party. That being said, you know, Liz Cheney has been raking in a lot of money on her own accord and has used the committee`s platform, the House Select Committee investigating the January 6 insurrection as sort of a jumping off point to kind of separate herself and continue to have her own fundraising mechanism that goes outside of the party.
I think, though, you know, Kevin McCarthy doesn`t necessarily face a lot of options here, as the former president does control really the fundraising and grassroots apparatus and ability to raise a lot of money. And I think that this was potentially inevitable him ultimately backing Cheney`s challenger.
JANSING: You know, we`ve talked a lot in the last couple of days about you and your colleagues in that incredible exhaustive account of text messages involving Mark Meadows. If we look at it in total, because it really is all around January 6, what did that examination tell you about the committee`s effort to keep by learning about keep efforts to keep Biden out of the White House? And does it give us any clues, do you think about what else we might see in those public hearings?
ALEMANY: Yeah, I think the text messages, while you know, a lot of this reporting is not necessarily new. These text messages have sort of been, have trickled out of the committee like a trail of breadcrumbs that the public has slowly been watching in various records, requests, subpoenas and other public comments made by the select committee.
But I think in their totality, when you put them all together, they do help paint the picture of what exactly the committee is doing. And the text messages that Mark Meadows turned over about 4000 of them is actually turning out to be some of the most important tools that the committee has at their disposal right now to really understand and be able to see the depth of the efforts that were taking place and the multiple layers that were taking place to overturn the results of the election.
I think it also has been really helpful to capture moments that would have otherwise been lost to history. These are ephemeral, very candid snapshots of time, people really showing their personal relationships with Mark Meadows, a memorialization of that Fox News to the White House direct pipeline, and also sort of showing the chasm between a lot of the public statements that you`ve heard from GOP lawmakers and Fox News hosts who are now trying to whitewash what happened on January 6. But in those messages, were very clearly concerned in the lead up to the interaction.
[23:15:14]
JANSING: We do continue, Melissa, to learn new things from the committee about what they have. They seem to be very strategically making some of their work public. How much does this committee work, in your view, what we know so far overlap with the DOJ criminal investigation?
MURRAY: Well, I think there`s going to be more and more overlap as more comes out. But I think we have to think about the committee`s work not simply about trying to uncover for Congress, what happened on that day and sort of linking all of this to the broader effort to overturn a validly conducted election, but to make the public aware of this.
So I think an important part of the committee`s work here is really about public education and linking a lot of these dots that seem to be quite disparate and disconnected, but in fact, are part of this larger hole that tells a story. And so what we`ve been seeing is the connecting of those dots, I`m bringing them together, bringing in the false electors plot, bringing in the violence at the Capitol to show that this is all part of a very joined up coordinated effort, not simply these disparate efforts that somehow culminated in something on January 6, but actually something that was quite coordinated, quite planned and potentially incredibly dangerous.
JANSING: Melissa Murray, Jackie Alemany, Michael Crowley, thanks to all of you.
Coming up, the clear message for Russia today from defense secretary Lloyd Austin during his trip to Europe. We`ll talk to Adm. James Stavridis, the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, about the state of the Alliance amid the tensions on the Ukraine border.
And later, millions of us just witnessed one of the most heart wrenching events ever seen in Olympic competition. We`ve got a former Olympic skater and the expert who calls himself the chief skate nerd standing by. The 11th Hour just getting underway on a Thursday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:20:30]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. ARMY (RET.) DEFENSE SECRETARY: We see some of those troops, it`s closer to that border. We see them fly in more combat and support aircraft. We see them sharpen their readiness in the Black Sea. I was a soldier myself not that long ago. And I know firsthand that you don`t do these sorts of things, for no reason. And you certainly don`t do them if you`re getting ready to pack up and go home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: Rapidly escalating concerns tonight of a Russian invasion with an increase in shelling in eastern Ukraine. On top of that ongoing movement of troops and equipment, the warning coming from Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, but he also added an assurance to allies in Brussels today that the NATO alliance is stronger than ever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AUSTIN: I joined the United States Army in the middle of the Cold War. And I have served and fought alongside NATO allies for the better part of my adult life. But I can honestly say that I have never seen the alliance, more relevant and more united and more resolute than I see it today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: Back with us tonight, Adm. James Stavridis. He`s a 30 year Navy veteran who retired with four stars on his shoulders. He is the former head of the U.S. Southern Command and former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. He also co-authored the recent book, 2034: A Novel of the Next World War.
It is always good to see you and we just heard the Defense Secretary say, you don`t do these things for no reason. But is it out of the realm of possibility that Vladimir Putin is waiting until the very last minute to make a decision? Or do you think he is creating a clear pretext for an invasion and is committed to an attack?
ADM. JAMES STAVRIDIS, U.S. NAVY (ret.): Chris, I think both are true. In other words, he is in fact, not quite certain. There are a couple other key indicators that would tell us he has actually closed the switch and is moving forward. But you`re correct. He has certainly put in place absolutely everything he needs to do short of throwing a couple of key switches. So --
JANSING: So, what are those indicators you`re looking for?
STAVRIDIS: Three, in particular, Chris, I would watch for an increased cyber-attack. We`ve seen the beginning of that about a week ago, almost probing into the major command and control nodes of the Ukrainian military and government. Number two is watch the see. He is moving his naval forces around to the south. And behind the frontlines. He can do that because of the qualities of water, there`s no barrier out there in the Black Sea. So he`s moved around behind.
And third, and most importantly, and I think the clip from Lloyd Austin was important, but the critical one came from Tony Blinken, our Secretary of State, these are both close friends of mine at the United Nation where he talks about the false flag. When you see the Russians begin to talk about, oh, there`s been a chemical weapon attack or oh, a ship has suddenly sunk or, oh, we know that the Russian elements in Luhansk and Donetsk in the south are under attack that false flag, that fake attack. That`s the key indicator. Those are the three things I`m watching, Chris.
JANSING: Let me ask you about something that just happened. Ukraine said Russian backed separatists were responsible for the shelling of the kindergarten in eastern Ukraine, shelling that`s been described as long distance, as synchronized. It`s a move Secretary Austin called troubling. How do you view it?
STAVRIDIS: I think it is beyond troubling. It is a precursor, a heartbreaker of how horrible this could be. These were kindergarteners, and they are caught in the vise of war. And let me tell you, this is just a flicker of how bad it could be. If 150,000 Russians collide with 250,000 Ukrainian soldiers. This is a massive pair of armies blind up against each other. And we need to remember there are civilians including children like these kindergarteners, who are between the two pincers of this pliers that could come together.
JANSING: If you had a Vladimir Putin`s here and I`m not sure anybody does but Vladimir Putin, but do you agree with Secretary Austin about how United NATO is right now that they`ve been actually strengthened by Russian provocations or is that just more messaging to Putin?
[23:25:09]
STAVRIDIS: No, it is not just messaging, Chris. And in fact, like Lloyd, I`ve spent my life in and around NATO, including, even beyond what Lloyd mentioned. I`ve spent four years inside NATO as the Supreme Allied Commander of the Alliance. I am here to tell you, the alliance will stand together in this and this is the great irony of what is unfolding in front of us. Putin is trying to push NATO away from NATO`s borders, but what he`s doing is encouraging NATO to move closer and closer, encouraging non-NATO but highly capable nations like Sweden and Finland to seriously consider joining NATO. At the end of the day, if he crosses this border in anger, it`s going to do nothing but galvanize NATO, move forces closer to his border, and accomplish every serious objective he has.
JANSING: Putin has a long list of perceived grievances, as you well know. The New York Times reports on one of them, they say, U.S. military bases in Poland and Romania are actually the center of what Putin see at -- sees is a threat posed by NATO.
And here`s what the Times reports, "The polish base, the heart of which is a system known as the Aegis Ashore, contains sophisticated radars capable of tracking hostile missiles and guiding interceptor rockets to knock them out of the sky. It is also equipped with missile launchers known as MK 41s, which the Russians worry can easily be repurposed to fire offensive missiles like Tomahawks."
What do you think about this report? And is that at the heart of Russian concerns?
STAVRIDIS: I think it is a significant concern on the part of Russia but it is an unfounded concern. Christ, this is something in which I`m deeply expert, this Aegis Ashore refers to the fact that these are naval systems on our Aegis ships that I`ve commanded at sea, which are brought ashore and embedded in the ground in Poland and Romania.
Here`s the thing to understand. Those systems are designed not to go against Russian missiles, but to go against Iranian long range ballistic missiles. And I could show you if we had an hour and a half exactly how the physics of all that work. But those systems as configured, are zero threat to Russian military systems. But here`s what we should do, we should open them up, create transparency, they`re a bit mysterious, I think to the Russians. This is something over which we could have a dialogue to include allowing Russia to come and inspect those systems and ascertain for themselves why they are no threat to Russian Strategic Systems.
JANSING: Adm. James Stavridis, always a pleasure, sir. And so instructive to hear you, thank you so much for being with us tonight.
STAVRIDIS: Thanks a lot, Chris.
JANSING: And coming up, Don Calloway Susan Del Percio on what`s at stake for the President as he takes his economic message to Ohio and prepares for his first State of the Union address when the 11th Hour continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:31:53]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TIM KAINE, (D) VIRGINIA: If I were Joe Biden for State of the Union, I`d be real candid and say, look, this has been the toughest two years in my lifetime for this country. If you just look at the number of people who have died, who have gotten sick, economic job losses, people who couldn`t fly to see a new grandchild that was born in another state, people could go to a funeral of a friend because there wasn`t a funeral. This has been absolutely brutal unlike any time during my lifetime. I think he should say that. But he should say but look, there`s an American comeback coming on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: According to new reporting from NBC News, the State of the Union address 12 nights from now, we`ll try to draw on what many see as Joe Biden`s greatest strength, empathy.
"The still-evolving plan, according to administration officials, is for Biden to stress that he understands the economic pain many Americans are experiencing, particularly because of inflation, in an attempt to balance out his recent efforts to get credit for policy prescriptions, the White House beliefs have been his successes."
With us tonight, Don Calloway, Democratic Strategist and Founder of the National Voter Protection Action Fund, and Susan Del Percio, MSNBC Political Analyst and a Veteran Political Strategist. Good see you both.
So Don, the President was in the greatest state, my home state of Ohio today selling his largest legislative success, which is the bipartisan infrastructure plan. Here, he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Somewhere along the way, we took our eye off the ball, we took our eye off the ball, our infrastructure used to be right at number one in the world. Today, according to the World Economic Forum, we ranked number 13 in the world, China and the rest of the world catching up and passing us. But now other infrastructure law, we`re reinvesting in our economy and in our people, reclaiming our leadership and creating millions of jobs for building a better America. That`s what we`re going to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANSING: So Don, is cut the cord he needs to strike telling voters, look, I understand the ways the status quo had failed you, but then explaining what he`s doing to fix it.
DON CALLOWAY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Absolutely. I mean, he`s striking the right note, I wish he had done it several months ago, he and the Vice President gotten out there and then more visible, both in selling the bipartisan infrastructure bill and Bill Back Better. But I`m glad to see him out here now. And it`s never too late to start playing to his greatest strength, which is getting out with the people and engaging the people.
However, there`s quite a lift here. And it`s an inside lift, as well as an outside lift. He`s got to get with these local councils and local mayors and local authorities, both mayors, elected city council people, regionally elected leaders, and most importantly, the people on the ground or authorities who make local decisions. He`s got to educate them about how to work with his federal agencies to draw down this money for important progressive infrastructure projects that help both the public sector and the private sector. That`s the inside baseball lift. There`s a substantial external lift, and that starts on the State of the Union. And he`s probably micro testing that now in these various, you know, off the beaten path markets like Ohio. He`s got to go out there and sell his plan, about not only what the bipartisan infrastructure package did but the transformative potential it has but far, most importantly, and as far as external salesmanship, he`s got to explain what the obstacles are. And that`s the opportunity for him to paint the Republican Party as an obstructionist party who was actually standing in the face of real progress that Congress has already authorized through what`s possible with this bipartisan infrastructure bill.
[23:35:25]
JANSING: I`m going to give her the snarky comment. And -- but I`m going to pick up on something you said that is important. And I think, you know, this idea of connecting locally. And Susan, the President got specific in his remarks in Ohio, naming local landmarks projects laying out like the exact number and type of jobs to expect as a result of bipartisan infrastructure. Is that the right tone? Is that the right message that he should take into the State of the Union, or should he also take some of Senator Kaine`s advice?
SUSAN DEL PERCIO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, absolutely, when he`s out on the road, bringing up the details of what the state that he`s in and saying, this is what we have done, and having members of Congress with him for re-election, that is a home run.
I disagree with Senator Kaine respectfully, as far as what he, the President needs to do in the State of the Union. He does not need to focus on the bad parts of the last two years, he needs to focus on what they`ve overcome. And, yes, we`ve had trials, we`ve had tribulations, but we are no longer have gloom and doom, we are looking forward. And here -- and this is the important part, Chris, and this is what we are going to do about it. And I agree with Don about shaming the Republicans in certain places. And it doesn`t have to be, you know, this isn`t a policy speech. So he can say, I plan on getting insulin, you know, capped at $35 per dose, full stop. If Republicans won`t join me, we`ll figure out a workaround. He may not figure out a workaround, but it`s a great piece of rhetoric to use. And that`s what he has to keep talking about is why he`s going to deliver, the competence issue and not look back and look forward and give the public something to hold on to, some wanting to just grab on to.
JANSING: So that`s the Democratic side of this, Susan, I want to ask you about the Republican Party, which is frankly tearing itself apart all over the country. I mean, GOP incumbents are facing hundreds of primary challengers. Today, we learned Kevin McCarthy is endorsing one of Liz Cheney`s primary opponents. Could this kind of infighting hurt those candidates with independence in the general election? Are they just tired of this?
DEL PERCIO: Absolutely, Chris. As matter of fact, I think the Democrats best hope to go against history and keep the Congress is to actually have Donald Trump candidates win in these moderate districts. So you don`t have -- you have extremist candidates who are not going to do well, when they have to appeal to center right voters who don`t want to hear about 2020 and don`t want to hear about Donald Trump, they want to look forward. So these primaries are brutal for good, decent, you know, principled Republicans. I look at Liz Cheney, though, I think that`s a little bit different situation. And I hope she`s going to make it out of that.
JANSING: Don, we`re almost out of time for this segment. But do you see that that`s some hope for Democrats, frankly, that a lot of these Trump acolytes get in and, you know, replace the incumbents who are often no names known quantities?
CALLOWAY: Absolutely. And it`s not much unlike we saw in 2010 when some of the most abhorrent Republican candidates particularly in the House side didn`t ever really catch fire for the general election because by that time, you had larger corporate PACs or institutional donors who were simply not willing to go there. The Democrat I hope we see a repeat of that but also remember that the primary process is brutal, parties eat their own, they eat their young --
JANSING: We got a freeze on Don Calloway, but I`m glad we got that final thought and it is true. Primaries are brutal. Don Calloway, Susan Del Percio, thanks to both of you.
Coming up, taking the agony of defeat to a whole new and controversial and heartbreaking level on the 11th Hour continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:42:34]
JANSING: Today saw a stunning and emotional finale in the scandal that has consumed Olympic skating, 15 year old Russian figure skater, Kamila Valieva, a heavy favorite to win gold in the women`s individual competition didn`t even make it to the podium after an uncharacteristically error ridden performance amid the fury over her failed drug test from December. And even as her teammates to gold and silver, the anguish and turmoil of the drama was clearly evident on all the skaters.
As the Washington Post columnist put it, failure and misery are more prevalent in sports than we care to acknowledge. But this was another level. This was torture on ice.
Consider it happen to a teenager, one experiencing vilification for a possible doping plot that she couldn`t have possibly devised on her own. And her agonizing four minute free skate stands is perhaps the most abusive moment in sports history.
We are pleased to welcome to the broadcast tonight former figure skater Ashley Wagner, 2014, Olympic Bronze Medalist and host of Olympic Ice on Peacock, and Jackie Wong, Digital Skating Analyst at the website, Rocker Skating and the host of the podcast, Ice Talk.
I`m so glad to have you both here. I`m so -- I don`t know, I`m just overwhelmed by what we have to talk about. Ashley, let me read you what the New York Times said happened after Valieva`s performance.
Her coach, Eteri Tutberidze, greeted her not with a hug but with a stern look, "Why did you let it go?" Tutberidze asked in Russian in a scene broadcast on live television. "Why did you stop fighting? Explain it to me, why? You let it go after that axle." Valieva, did not reply.
You know the pressure just competing in the Olympics, let alone at such a young age with everything that was swirling around her. I found watching the post skate scene excruciating. And I wonder as a skater what went through your mind.
ASHLEY WAGNER, "OLYMPIC ICE" HOST: I mean, it was just heartbreaking. The argument made for her to be able to skate was that it would cause her irreparable harm if she was not allowed to compete at this Olympic Games. And you can`t help but watch that and wonder how they couldn`t see that that is actually what irreparable harm is to her. She was only considered as an athlete, only considered as a medal opportunity and never wants as a person. This was such a damaging moment in her career for her as an athlete but also for her as a person and so many adults failed her along the way.
[23:45:10]
An adult had to open the door for her to gain access to the banned substance. And we just watched an athlete whose talent is so incredible that we will never really know just how talented she is. And that is truly devastating. It`s sad, and I just had such a visceral reaction watching that free skates day.
JANSING: Jackie, walk us through how shocking for people only watch skating frankly, once every four years, how shocking. This was compared to what she`s capable of doing. And then the reaction by her teammates, Anna Shcherbakova looking, I mean, sad standing alone, holding a teddy bear after winning a gold medal.
JACKIE WONG, DIGITAL SKATING ANALYST AT ROCKER SKATING: Yeah, it was surreal, bizarre, surreal, everything under the sun. I have been watching a lot of skating, covering a lot of skating for the past, you know, 10, 20, 30 years. And it`s just nothing like what has happened that was there.
But Valieva came in as the heavy, heavy favorite. And had she done everything that she was supposed to have done, she would have blown everybody out of the water. And this was just one of those things where we were in practice. We`re watching her do everything steely, focused, everything was just right where she wanted it to be. And then she would skate off. And it would hit her that this is a media spectacle that there`s all of this stuff that is on her mind. And then she would break down in front of hundreds of cameras at practice ice.
And you knew that she was either going to be that steely, focused person who would just go out there and do exactly what she`s always been doing. Or you were going to get absolutely 0% of her and was, she was going to completely fall apart and be vulnerable. And that`s what ended up happening. And her teammates were, I don`t really know what was happening with her teammates. I mean, sure Shcherbakova was stunned, shocked. You just won an Olympic gold medal and you`re sitting there alone in the green room with nobody to celebrate with you. While everybody`s trying to consult both of our other teammates or other teammates, Trusova was on TV complaining about how she should have won the gold medal and refusing to go on the metal stand. It was a lot. And it was something that was just out of this world.
JANSING: So does this just become a story, Ashley, does just this becomes something we talk about when we talk about these Olympics? Or could something change? Who`s going to protect these young girls?
WAGNER: I mean, that is the question that I think we all are asking right now or should be asking right now. These girls have been completely let down by a system that is just prioritizing what they can do in this sport, and watching Valieva but out on that ice today, she should never have been on the ice, she should not have been competing. That positive test, you know, so many athletes before her were never given that opportunity to go out and skate while we waited to kind of go through the legislation and understand really the root of the issue. And here she was allowed to skate and her team, older from this event, this media circus was inevitable. Her crumbling on the ice while the world is watching was inevitable. The pressure that she was under was completely unfair, she was put in an impossible position.
And at the end of the day, who`s protecting her, who`s making sure that she is OK. And I can only hope that this spurs on some kind of change where coaching staff teams are held accountable because these are human beings. These are kids that are bringing you entertainment, but at what cost? And at what point? Is it a step too far. I would hope that people can watch this. And everyone I`ve spoken with has a feeling about this. You can`t watch it and not feel something.
And it has to be enough to spur some kind of change. Because this is a system that I`ve been a part of. I`ve been a competitive skater for 23 years of my life. This is nothing new to me. I think it`s just now being highlighted on an international stage and hopefully people want to do something to change it.
JANSING: Jackie, you`re there. So I can only imagine, you know, the feeling on the ground. But you have to look at the Olympic movement and you have to understand figure skating is the marquee event, the marquee event, right? So there are people now who are saying that this sport has lost its way maybe irreparably harmed. What`s the conversation on the ground there because you`re talking to all the people who are in the middle of this sport, love this sport, have dedicated their lives to this sport?
[23:50:00]
WONG: I mean everybody is still in shock. It was -- it`s just been such a crazy week of two weeks of skating and of news, and people have just been trying to figure out where to go next and, you know, fingers getting has no stranger to scandals. We`ve -- I feel like we have a scandal like every eight years at the Olympics, but this was the perfect storm, right? It was at the Olympics in the marquee event with the with the woman skater who was the absolute favorite. And had this happened to somebody else? Had this happened at a different time? There would not be this firestorm.
And so, you know, as Ashley said, I think this is the time to really look ourselves as figure skating in the community, in the eyes and figure out like what it is that we are doing. And, you know, there`s been a lot of talk about potential for age, you know, limits and, you know, figuring out how to raise that and that conversation is going to be just further accelerated after this.
JANSING: So many conversations we need to have. Jackie Wong, Ashley Wagner, thank you both.
Coming up, if it`s feeling a lot like 2016 there`s a reason even if most of it is not quite true.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JANSING: Hillary Clinton is stepping back into the political spotlight today as she endorsed incumbent New York Governor Kathy Hochul for a full term. She also called out a persistent and misleading right wing narrative that wrongly accuses her campaign of spying on Donald Trump. NBC News Correspondent Hallie Jackson has more on what`s behind these renewed attacks.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HALLIE JACKSON, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hillary Clinton laid today in New York.
HILARY CLINTON: They`ve been coming after me again lately in case you might have noticed.
JACKSON: Referencing the unproven allegations from some conservatives that her campaigns spied on then President Donald Trump.
[23:55:06]
CLINTON: It`s funny the more trouble Trump gets into, the wild are the charges and conspiracy theories about me seem to get.
JACKSON: It comes after a new filing dropped from Special Counsel John Durham who`s investigating the origins of the Russia investigation with Clinton`s opponents pointing to the filing as proof something nefarious happens.
REP. JIM JORDAN, (R) OHIO: They were spying on the sitting President of the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hillary Clinton`s campaign paid to spy on Donald Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The silenced by most of the media is very revealing.
JACKSON: But the filing does not back up the claim the Clinton campaign paid to have then President Trump`s spied on. The whole thing started last week over the case of a cybersecurity lawyer with ties to the Democratic Party. Michael Sussman. The motion says a tech executive gave Sussman nonpublic data about communications between computer servers at the White House and two Trump owned buildings in New York, describing the executive as exploiting his access to that White House data to search for derogatory information on Mr. Trump.
Sussman, the filing suggests, shared exaggerated claims with the CIA the Trump associates were using Russian made cell phones near the White House and allegation the Special Counsel found no evidence of. But Sussman`s attorneys counter that Durham well knows the data collection ended even before former President Trump took office when Barack Obama was president. Experts also tell NBC News that computer data itself is very limited.
TOM WINTER, NBC NEWS INVESTIGATION CORRESPONDENT: Emails couldn`t have been read. Text messages couldn`t have been read. They couldn`t have even seen the content that was on the screens.
JACKSON: The court filing does not allege a crime related to hacking. It also doesn`t say anyone was illegally spied on. Halle Jackson, NBC News, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JANSING: And we`re back with more of the 11th Hour after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JANSING: Be sure to stay with MSNBC as we continue to monitor the tense standoff with running along the Ukrainian border.
That is our broadcast for this Thursday night with our thanks for being with us. On behalf of all of my colleagues at the networks of NBC News, good night.