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It was in early February when special counsel Jack Smith subpoenaed former Vice President Mike Pence to testify in the investigation into the Jan. 6 attack and Donald Trump’s bid to stay in power despite his defeat. Initially, the Indiana Republican balked, but Smith and his team pressed on, insisting that Pence’s insights were absolutely necessary.
In March, a federal judge told the former vice president that he no longer had a choice, and Pence was ordered to comply with the subpoena.
In the months that followed, we were left to wonder what, exactly, the Republican said to investigators. It’s against that backdrop that ABC News appears to have added some striking clarity to the matter.
Speaking with special counsel Jack Smith’s team earlier this year, former Vice President Mike Pence offered harrowing details about how, in the wake of the 2020 presidential election, then-President Donald Trump surrounded himself with “crank” attorneys, espoused “un-American” legal theories, and almost pushed the country toward a “constitutional crisis,” according to sources familiar with what Pence told investigators.
The reporting has not been independently verified by MSNBC or NBC News. What’s more, when asked about the report by NBC News, a spokesman for Pence declined to comment on the story.
That said, if the ABC News reporting is accurate, it advances our understanding quite a bit, including one detail from Jan. 6 that was of particular interest:
According to sources, one of Pence’s notes obtained by Smith’s team shows that, days before Pence was set to preside over Congress certifying the election results on Jan. 6, 2021, he momentarily decided that he would skip the proceedings altogether, writing in the note that there were “too many questions” and it would otherwise be “too hurtful to my friend.” But he ultimately concluded he had a duty to show up.
Pence apparently came to this conclusion after having a conversation with his son, a Marine, who reminded the then-vice president of his oath of office.
The fact that Pence initially decided not to participate in the certification process might help explain the reporting at the time about Senate Pro Tem Chuck Grassley possibly overseeing the process.
The same ABC News report added that, despite pressure from Trump, he told the then-president he’d seen no evidence of significant election irregularities, adding that he also did not have the authority to do what Trump wanted the then-vice president to do. (My MSNBC colleague Jordan Rubin has a great item along these lines, highlighting the surprising importance of a comma from Pence’s book.)
If prosecutors’ case against Trump goes to trial, it’s still quite possible that Pence would be called to take the stand as a witness, at which point he might yet elaborate further on these points. Watch this space.