The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell, Transcript 4/4/2016

Charlie Sykes, Katie Packer, Jacob Rascon, Bruce Bartlett, Barney Frank, Nina Turner

Date: April 4, 2016
Guest: Charlie Sykes, Katie Packer, Jacob Rascon, Bruce Bartlett, Barney
Frank, Nina Turner

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Now it`s time for “THE LAST WORD” with Lawrence
O`Donnell, good evening, Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Rachel, get home right now and get right
to sleep.

MADDOW: I will.

O`DONNELL: You`ve got a long night tomorrow night.

MADDOW: I`m just going to –

O`DONNELL: Long night –

MADDOW: I`m just going to sleep right here.


O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.

MADDOW: Bye, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Well, we`re going to have a mini Hillary versus Bernie debate
tonight between their supporters Barney Frank and Nina Turner.

And when Donald Trump told two reporters in an interview that we are on the
verge of a massive recession, they actually worried about how Wall Street
would react to that today because they apparently didn`t realize that Wall
Street has never taken Donald Trump seriously.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a dirty business, this

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The anti-Trump forces are lined up.

TRUMP: “Never Trump”. Did you hear this? “Never Trump”.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ted Cruz might not be the best fit for Wisconsin for
our style.


SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: No funny hats.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is the one guy that can block Donald Trump.

TRUMP: Everybody hates Cruz. Lying Ted Cruz.

CRUZ: We`re going to beat him to 1,237 delegates, either before the
convention or at Cleveland.

TRUMP: Tom Brady likes me a lot, so that helps, right?

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: They`re obviously very worried about me going
to the convention.

TRUMP: Kasich, he is 1 for 30. He ought to get the hell out, honestly,
because I love to be honest.

KASICH: I`m not going to be a pincushion. I`m not going to be a

TRUMP: It`s like we`re a bunch of babies.

CHUCK TODD, MODERATOR, MEET THE PRESS: Is Donald Trump your strongest


TRUMP: Reince –

prepared to support whoever the eventual nominee is.

TRUMP: If we do well here, folks, it`s over.

CHARLIE SYKES, RADIO HOST: Wisconsin has to be this firewall of
rationality in the craziness of this campaign.

TRUMP: My life is crazy.

MELANIA TRUMP, WIFE OF DONALD TRUMP: When you attack him, he will punch
back ten times harder.




O`DONNELL: No one ignores Donald Trump more than America`s richest people.
The people who run Wall Street think Donald Trump is a joke.

A bad joke. Everyone on Wall Street, from the billionaires down to the
lowest-ranking clerks think they know more about markets and the economy
than Donald Trump ever will.

Donald Trump proved today just how much of a joke he is to Wall Street
because today, nothing happened on Wall Street.

Nothing. Nothing out of the ordinary. It was just a typical day of
trading on Wall Street.

And today was the day after Donald Trump said in a “Washington Post”
interview that everyone should get out of the stock market right now
because we are headed for “a very massive recession.”

America`s richest people knew that was just another very massive ridiculous
statement by Donald Trump, just like all those massive ridiculous
statements about how rich he is.

In that “Washington Post” interview, Donald Trump once again insisted that
he made $213 million from his reality TV show.

He claims that was proven by a press release put out by his campaign that
included no documentation at all about how much money he actually made from
that TV show.

No one in the political media seemed to notice the next week when Donald
Trump actually filed an official financial statement with the federal
election commission, which listed the salary that he made from “The
Apprentice” in 2014 as exactly $14,222.

That is the only amount of income from his TV show that Donald Trump has
included in an official campaign filing with the FEC.

Donald Trump does not have a billion dollars lying around to spend on a
presidential campaign.


TRUMP: So, I`m self-funding. You know, I`m totally self-funding. I`m
self-funding my campaign.

I`m self-funding my campaign, folks. I`m self-funding my campaign, and I`m
putting up my own money.

And remember this, very importantly, I`m self-funding my campaign.


O`DONNELL: As we`ve noted many times before, Donald Trump is not, repeat,
not self-funding his campaign.

He has been lending money to his campaign which his campaign can pay back
to him if it raises enough outside money.

And so far, the Trump campaign has raised over $9.5 million in outside
donations, and it plans to raise much more.

Gabe Sherman was granted extraordinary access to the Trump campaign for his
cover story this week in “New York Magazine”.

He reports, “Trump won`t fund a general election himself and he has no
national fund-raising apparatus in place.

The campaign has been talking to veteran GOP fundraiser Ray Washburne about
taking outside money, according to the “Washington Post”.”

Gabe Sherman reports overhearing a Trump operative discussing fundraising
efforts, saying, “I have to find a place for these rich guys to go to, he
said. Dinners, receptions, events.

We need everything because we don`t have a finance committee.”


TRUMP: You take a look at the people supporting Ted Cruz. Totally – you
take a look at the people that are giving to his PACs and that are giving
him money.

These people are – they have total control over him. They will say jump,
Ted. In some cases, they`ll say jump, lying Ted because nobody lies like
this guy.

This guy is a liar.


O`DONNELL: If Donald Trump wins the Republican presidential nomination, he
will be begging those same people for campaign contributions.

Gabe Sherman`s “New York Magazine” article says, “it will be a hard sell
for Trump, one of the hardest of his career to persuade GOP donors to pony
up, especially after his attacks on the donor class.”

Voters will be heading to the polls in Wisconsin tomorrow morning where
according to the latest poll from Emerson College, Ted Cruz is in the lead
at 40 percent, followed by Donald Trump at 35 percent, John Kasich at 21

On the final day of campaigning in Wisconsin today, conservative talk radio
host Charlie Sykes was leading the “Stop Trump” movement.


SYKES: Great moments in presidential rhetoric. Ronald –


SYKES: Reagan, Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. Donald J. Trump,
Charlie Sykes is a low-life loser.

So again, kind of a badge of honor because you know, you make the list of
the people that he`s insulted and I`m kind of glad to be on that list now.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Charlie Sykes, radio host with “WTMJAM” in
Milwaukee and the editor-in-chief of “Right Wisconsin”.

He`s endorsed Ted Cruz and is a leader of the “Stop Trump” movement. Also
with us, Katie Packer, founder of Our Principles, an anti-Trump PAC.

She was deputy campaign manager of the Romney 2012 campaign. And also with
us, “Nbc News” correspondent Jacob Rascon, who covers the Donald Trump

Charlie Sykes, welcome to the Donald Trump –

SYKES: Thank you –

O`DONNELL: Enemies list. I`ve been on it for many years now. I was the
very first person five years ago who he actually threatened to sue on

I got the first, you know, I should sue you tweet. So, Charlie, welcome
aboard for that –

SYKES: Congratulations –

O`DONNELL: The – Wisconsin seems to be behaving differently from other
states that we`ve seen in the Republican campaign so far for a variety of

A lot of people are focused on you and other talk radio hosts there who
have been very strongly anti-Donald Trump –

SYKES: Right –

O`DONNELL: And that`s in contrast to some of the other radio markets in
the country that are dominated by the national shows like Rush Limbaugh who
has been essentially very pro-Trump as this campaign has worn on –

SYKES: Right –

O`DONNELL: Is that – is that one of the big differences we`re seeing

SYKES: It`s one of them. It`s not the only difference. But that is
extraordinary, by the way.

That, you know, this week for the first time you push back on Donald Trump,
you begin to ask him tough questions, you begin to expose all of the – you
know, the fraud, you know, behind this guy.

And it does occur to me this didn`t happen in any of the other states, it
didn`t happen in Florida. It didn`t happen in South Carolina.

I mean, really, what does this say about the rest of the media that we`re
just finding out about the kinds of things that you were talking about?

And you know, if you have, you know, liberal media, fine, go after him.
But the conservative media, frankly, has to have a day of reckoning to ask
how did you let this guy go for so long and let this scam get as far as it
has gotten?

O`DONNELL: Charlie, I listened – I was driving the day after that first
Republican debate.

And I listened to the entire Rush Limbaugh show for the three hours, and
what I noticed was his listeners were very pro Trump that day.

And it felt –

SYKES: Right –

O`DONNELL: To me that what I was hearing over time with Rush Limbaugh is
he was following his listeners that if his listeners were going to go in
that direction, his ratings were going to be dependent on just how pro
Trump he was.

SYKES: Yes, I think that mean there are two things that go on. I mean,
number one, maybe people don`t want to be attacked by Donald Trump.

By the way, it`s not so terrible, you can –

O`DONNELL: Oh, yes –

SYKES: You can survive it –

O`DONNELL: Yes, there is life –

SYKES: And –


SYKES: And secondly, there is this pandering for ratings, which you know,
at a certain point, if we actually stand for something, if we actually
believe in the things that we`ve been talking about for – you know, in my
case for more than 20 years, at some point, you have to take a stand.

You actually have to stand up and tell your audience, OK, this is what you
need to know about this guy because I think there`s kind of a moral
responsibility at certain point.

And I have to say, it`s very disillusioning for a lot of folks watching
what some of these fan boys in the national media have done.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Donald Trump said today about the “Never
Trump” movement.



TRUMP: It`s called “Never Trump”. Did you hear this? “Never Trump”. Do
you know what these are?

These are establishment people that don`t want to see it happen because
they`re all on the trough, they`re making a lot of money – I don`t think
in many cases they care who wins it.

Want to keep it going.


O`DONNELL: Katie Packer, he`s talking about you. Establishment people
making a lot of money from the “Never Trump” movement.

And you just want to make a lot of money, that`s the only reason you`re in

as much money as Corey Lewandowski, his campaign manager who batters women.

But I have to say that I really applaud Charlie Sykes and I think you`re
absolutely right.

You know, conservatives have to stand for something and they can`t just be
shilling for ratings.

And Charlie Sykes is a hero in my book because he`s somebody that has stood
up to Donald Trump and he has exposed this emperor for having no clothes.

And I really – I applaud you, Charlie, and the others in Wisconsin that
have really led the way in sort of straightening things out and telling the
truth about this guy.

And so, you`re a hero in my book.

O`DONNELL: Jacob Rascon, you were at that Trump event tonight in
Wisconsin. And any word from the Trump campaign about why they changed
their plans in Wisconsin?

A week ago when they first went to Wisconsin, they were – they said they
were going to stay there the whole week.

And then they abandoned the state. They went on an emergency trip to
Washington and Trump disappeared for a couple of days.

Any explanation for that today?

JACOB RASCON, NBC NEWS: Well, it was a no good, very bad week, as many
say. The Trump campaign says it wasn`t as bad as the media says.

But he wanted to go to Washington, he thought that was important. He
wanted to get a picture with his foreign policy team, of course.

We also saw something different, Lawrence, in the way the campaign is
choosing their venues.

They chose small venues, and as well they`re screening the line heavily.
And Trump admitted in this “Washington Post” article today that the
protests that have been coming to his rallies are having an impact.

He really, even though he says, oh, the protests make this really
interesting, he really wants to get those disruptions away.

And we saw him turn away thousands of Trump supporters just to keep the
anti-Trump crowd at bay.

And in fact, he did that last week and this week. But he really wants to
win Wisconsin.

We`ve seen him play expectations in other states. In Utah, for example,
his campaign saying oh, he hasn`t been there very often.

But he is predicting here still today a big win. And he was out three
events, Saturday, three events, Sunday, three events, Monday, bringing out
his wife, Melania, for the first time in more than a month.

And she spoke today for the most time we`ve ever seen her speak with him,
almost two minutes, with a prepared statement.

So, Trump really wants to win. Watch tomorrow if Trump loses for the
campaign to try to do or say something to divert the attention away from
that big loss.

And of course, he`ll try to tout his numbers going forward on these coast
states. Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Charlie Sykes, what would your interpretation – if the polls
hold up and we see Ted Cruz come in –

SYKES: Yes –

O`DONNELL: First in Wisconsin by five or maybe more, and Trump –

SYKES: More –

O`DONNELL: In second, what would your interpretation be of that going

SYKES: Well, that we`ve actually seen the template for what it takes to
stop Donald Trump.

I think right now we have the perfect storm here in Wisconsin. You have a
group like Katie Packer`s Super PAC that`s up on the air.

They`re doing direct mail. You actually have a conservative talk radio
finally holding him accountable.

You have a lot of the very popular elected officials including Governor
Scott Walker who are all in for Ted Cruz right now.

Conservatives have finally coalesced around an opponent, so this is really
the first of the binary contests.

I think people are going to look at this as really a pivot point in the
campaign. And in the two weeks now that it`s going to follow, people will
say, OK, what did that look like?

What strategy actually worked? And how can we use that going forward? And I
think it is interesting that he`s raising expectations because Donald Trump
is not going to win in Wisconsin tomorrow.

And I think that his bad week is going to take a terrible toll and I think
that you`re going to see by the way, specifically his problem with women.

In southeastern Wisconsin, we have a lot of conservative Republican women
and they are overwhelmingly breaking against Donald Trump because of the
way he treats women.

And this is something going forward that I don`t see any indication that
he`s actually has a plan or even an inclination to address.

O`DONNELL: Katie Packer, how far does your – does your PAC intend to go?
If no one has the 1,237 going into the convention, will you continue the
“Stop Trump” movement going right into the convention?

I mean, would you be doing TV advertising in Cleveland, you know, the
weekend before the convention, trying to convince delegates?

PACKER: I don`t know about TV advertising. Our plan is, you know, moving
past Wisconsin.

We agree with Charlie, we don`t think he`s going to win in Wisconsin, and
we have said that if he doesn`t win Wisconsin and Indiana, he can`t get to

And so we feel very optimistic moving past tomorrow, our focus is going to
be delegate by delegate.

We had a great weekend in North Dakota and Colorado this past week where
basically Donald Trump got shut out of both places that have had contests
over the weekend.

And we plan to go right into Cleveland. We do think that this battle is
going to go to Cleveland.

He will not have 1,237 on that first ballot and if he doesn`t have it on
the first ballot he`s going to drop from there.

And so we feel very good about the operation as it is right now and moving
on into a delegate fight after tomorrow.

O`DONNELL: Katie Packer, thanks for joining us tonight and Jacob Rascon,
thank you for joining us tonight.

And Charlie Sykes, thank you very much for joining us. And Charlie,
welcome to that Trump`s enemies list –

SYKES: Thank you –

O`DONNELL: You`ve got a lot of good company.

SYKES: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you. Coming up –

PACKER: Thanks –

O`DONNELL: Donald Trump would not be the first Republican president who
didn`t trust the way the unemployment rate is calculated.

Richard Nixon said it was “a Jewish cabal”, we have the tape. And a
special LAST WORD tonight about what happened on this day in 1968 at the
Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee.


O`DONNELL: “The Huffington Post” reports that Charles Koch is pushing the
Republican Party to consider nominating house Speaker Paul Ryan as the
party`s nominee at the Republican convention if it`s a contested

Today, Paul Ryan said this to Hugh Hewitt.


People put my name in this thing.

I said get my name out of that. This is – if you want to be president,
you should go run for president.

And that is the way I see it. I think you need to run for president if
you`re going to be president.

And I`m not running for president, so period, end of story.


O`DONNELL: Period, end of story. Up next, what Donald Trump has in common
with Richard Nixon.



TRUMP: I was interviewed by Bob Woodward and Bob Costa at “The Washington
Post”, and two great reporters.

And they did a story, and it was – I thought it was a pretty good story.
It was pretty accurate.

I don`t know where they had this, but somebody came out that I said we are
going – we`re in a bubble, big bubble.

Bubbles aren`t pretty. We`ve had bubbles, and when they burst it`s not a
good thing. And what I said is we`re going to go into a massive recession.

But I also say if I`m president, that`s not going to happen because I`m
going to straighten things out before it happens.


O`DONNELL: Donald Trump today in Wisconsin repeating what he had said in a
“Washington Post” interview on Sunday.

One of his interviewers, Robert Costa, said this tonight on “HARDBALL”.



CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC: Unprecedented for a major party figure to step out
and start talking about a massive recession on the horizon, calling it a
terrible time to invest.

Woodward and I walked out of the meeting, and we said we wondered if the
markets were open and what this would do.


O`DONNELL: The reporters worry was misplaced since they did not apparently
realize that the pronouncements of Donald Trump have never once been taken
even slightly seriously by anyone on Wall Street ever.

Why would anyone on Wall Street listen to a guy who doesn`t even know what
the unemployment rate is?


TRUMP: I`ve seen numbers of 24 percent, I actually saw a number of 42
percent unemployment, 42 percent!

The unemployment rate is probably 20 percent. But I will tell you, you
have some great economists that will tell you it`s 30 percent, 32 percent.

And the highest I`ve heard so far is 42 percent.


O`DONNELL: He`s only off by 37 percent. The unemployment rate is actually
5.0 percent.

If Donald Trump does become president, he won`t be the first Republican
president who doubts the Bureau of Labor Statistics measurement of the
unemployment rate.

Here is President Richard Nixon in 1971, discussing the work of the BLS
with his chief of staff.


were Jews? Out of the – out of the 23 in the BLS, did you get (INAUDIBLE)


NIXON: There`s a Jewish cabal, you know, running through this, working
with people like Burns and the rest.

And they all – they only talk to Jews. Now, but there it is. There is
the U.S. (INAUDIBLE) – you understand?


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, economist Bruce Bartlett, who was a former
Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under President George H.W.

Bruce, first of all, thank you for guiding us to that Richard Nixon tape

But there in Richard Nixon`s anti-Semitic ravings, in his wildest dreams he
never accused the BLS of understating the unemployment rate by 37 percent
as we`re hearing from Donald Trump.

And all this other economic gibberish about eliminating the national debt
and so forth. How do you – how could – how should serious people react
to that in trying to deal – explain it to Trump voters?

BRUCE BARTLETT, ECONOMIST: Well, it`s extremely embarrassing to say these
kinds of things.

To get the highest number that I heard Trump mention in his – in the
intro, you have to count all the retired people in the United States, all
the children still in school, people of that sort, people who are not
working because they don`t want to work or they can`t work.

It`s absurd to count those people as unemployed. Realistically, we count
as unemployed people who are in the labor force, who are trying to get a
job or who have a job.

And on that basis, the unemployment rate is calculated to be 5 percent.
But a lot of people say, oh, you should count people who are discouraged
and given up looking for work or people who are working part-time and would
like to work full-time.

If you add all those people in and count them as unemployed as well, you
get a number of 9.8 percent.

That`s the so-called U-6 rate. That`s the highest number that one could
reasonably assert is the real unemployment rate.

Anything higher than that is just ridiculous.

O`DONNELL: And Bruce, the craziest thing I`ve ever heard suggested by a
presidential campaign, eliminating the national debt in eight years.

BARTLETT: Well, that`s just absurd. The national debt is something like
$20 trillion right at the moment.

So, we`d have to pay down, you know, $2.5 trillion a year of debt. And the
total national – or total federal spending right now is about $4 trillion.

So, we`d have to cut almost everything the government does except maybe
paying interest on the debt to have enough revenue unless we raise taxes.

And of course, Trump wants to cut taxes by about a trillion dollars a year
as well. So, the numbers – I mean, you`d have to literally abolish all
spending for everything except paying down the debt.

O`DONNELL: Yes, it`s like someone coming along, you know, to someone who`s
in the first year of a 30-year mortgage and saying, hey, I have a plan for
you where you can get your whole mortgage paid off in eight years.

It`s at least as crazy as that.

BARTIROMO: Well, you`d think Trump would understand because it`s like real
estate finance.

It`s like he`s buying a building that with tenants and they`re paying rent
and he`s going to say – oh, and right now the rent is not covering his –
the debt interest or the costs of running the building.

And he`s saying I`m going to give everybody a rent cut and at the same time
I`m going to pay off the debt on this building, the mortgage on this
building in eight years.

Obviously, he would understand that that is a ridiculous thing to believe
is possible as a businessman.

So, why he can`t understand that the government operates the same way is
frankly a mystery.

O`DONNELL: Bruce Bartlett, thank you very much for joining us tonight, I
really appreciate it.

Coming up, our mini debate with Hillary Clinton supporter Barney Frank and
Bernie Sanders supporter Nina Turner.


O`DONNELL: On the last day of campaigning in Wisconsin here is the way it
looked today on the campaign trail.


TRUMP: The world is watching Wisconsin.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: We continue to have reporters covering all the
campaigns today.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: This is a lot closer race than a lot of
people expected at this point.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Are you voting tomorrow? Are you a primary

UNIDENTIFIED MALE VOTER: Yes. I will be voting for Bernie Sanders.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I think Wisconsin has had a long tradition of
progressive politics and I think Bernie`s message resonates.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: We cannot emphasize this enough. It is all
about New York for Secretary Clinton. They are bracing for a potential
loss in Wisconsin.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: About 24 hours we are going to know a whole
lot more.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Bernie Sanders, himself, sounding confident



a large voter turnout I believe we win.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: That he was going to do well in Wisconsin.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Trump needs to back off.






UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: What do you think when you look at the
republican field here?




UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: This is a guy named Bernie but despite the name
likes Donald Trump.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: You are voting on Tuesday.







TRUMP: I really believe tomorrow we are going to have a very, very big



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: He is Theodore Roosevelt riding in on his




chance to talk to Governor Kasich.



O`DONNELL: Governor, are you getting under their skin, Donald Trump in

convention and they pick somebody who cannot beat Hillary?



TRUMP: Here is the story with Kasich.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: He really doubled down on this idea that John
Kasich really needs to get out of the race.



TRUMP: He is 1 in 30. He ought to get the hell out. Honestly.



KASICH: I am not going anywhere.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Ted Cruz wants to win big here.



SEN> TED CRUZ, (R-TX) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There will be two candidates
with a ton of delegates if we have a contested convention. Me and Donald



TRUMP: I love Wisconsin.



CRUZ: Our campaign will unify the Republican Party.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Let us stop talking politics. Let us have a
beer and have a cheese curd, my friend.




SANDERS: Between you and me, I do not want to get Hillary Clinton more
nervous than she already is. She is already under a lot of pressure.


So, do not tell her this. But I think we win here, we win in New York
State, we are on our way to the white house.


O`DONNELL: That was Bernie Sanders in Janesville, Wisconsin today where
the latest polls show him at 51 percent, Hillary Clinton at 43 percent.
NBC`s Casey Hunt is in Milwaukee where Senator Sanders held a rally this


Sanders has so much on the line in Wisconsin, but they do at this point
expect to win that race. They are pushing ahead to Wyoming tomorrow, where
he will hold an event ahead of the caucuses there.

Right now, it is all really about expectations. The question, what is the
margin going to be on this Wisconsin primary? They know that they need to
win here to get a little bit of momentum to carry them through into New

And, if they can do that, then Hillary Clinton potentially has a difficult
couple of weeks with crowded Bernie Sanders rallies on her home turf in New
York. So, a lot on the line for both of them. Hillary Clinton not even
holding an election night rally tomorrow at all, Lawrence.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Barney Frank, former congressman from
Massachusetts, and a Hillary Clinton supporter and Nina Turner, a former
Ohio State senator, who supports Bernie Sanders. We are probably going to
have about 10 minutes of talk time here. So, let us try to be respectful
of each other`s talk time. We have all got something to say.

And, Barney Frank, I am going to start with you. And, by the way, as in
any debate, feel free toying nor my question and make any point you want in
favor of your candidate. But, what I begin with is just in the closing
argument tonight for Wisconsin what would be the number one point you would
make to Wisconsin voters? And, Nina, I would ask you the same thing after
Barney finishes. Go ahead, Barney.

BARNEY FRANK, (D-MA) FMR. U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Well, there is pretty close
agreement on what we want to do in terms of goals on the democratic side.
It is a lot more coherent than the republican side. The question is who is
the better change agent. And, I know the Sanders people are claiming that
because of the militancy with which he makes his case, his purity, that he
is a better one.

But that is not the verdict of almost everybody in the country who has been
working hard and effectively for the change we have been able to get. Look
at, for example, the congressional black caucus, the congressional Hispanic
caucus, the gay and lesbian members. Now, there are about 70 of those.
About 65 of them are for Hillary Clinton. Two are for Bernie Sanders.

There are dozens of African-American and Hispanic members who serve with
both of them. All, but two are for Hillary Clinton. The organizations,
Planned Parenthood, the human rights campaign. And, it has to do with how
you bring about change. Senator Sanders` approach has been to say, “Look,
I will state what I believe and I am not going to compromise and that is

What he is saying is he understands is going to be hard to enact. He in
fact, himself, acknowledges that it will take a revolution to get what he
has done. That is why he is in fact so critical objectively of President
Obama. The health care bill that was passed, financial reform, those were
tough hard things to get done.

Senator Sanders voted for them. If he had some very drastic alternatives,
he did not make a very effective effort to get them done, but he now
denigrates them. And, so, that is the difference. The people who have
been working in the congress, and I am not talking about some

I am talking about the most effective liberals, people on the left. As I
said, the black caucus, the leaders in the fight for immigration, the
leaders in the fight for same-sex marriage, the leaders in the fight for
economic justice. Overwhelmingly, based on having worked with both of
them, they are for Hillary Clinton.

And, there is I think a difference in how you approach things. I think
Senator Sanders opts for kind of the purity of the statement and it makes
Sanders people feel good. But, if you look at the groups in our democratic
coalition who have a lot on the line they are overwhelmingly for Hillary

O`DONNELL: Nina Turner, what would be your number one point to Wisconsin
voters tonight?

NINA TURNER, FMR. OHIO STATE SENATOR: I think the number one point that
Senator Sanders has made and will continue to make is that he had been a
consistent and honest champion against trade deals that take away jobs from
folks in this country, in particular states like Wisconsin where those
trade deals have devastated.

Senator Bernie Sanders has been on the picket line, not just talking the
talk with the house of labor and whispering sweet nothings in their ear
when it comes time for election, but he has actually put his body on the
picket line with those workers. So, those are some of the things.

And, I certainly disagree with the congressman. There may be many people
standing that are part of the elected ministry in the establishment,
standing on the side of Secretary Clinton. Some of those folks I have
worked with, but the bottom line is this. There are millions of Americans
in this country who believe that change needs to come, that the status quo
cannot continue, that people are suffering in this country.

And, Senator Bernie Sanders has a proven track record of having the good
judgment and standing up for the least of these when it is not convenient.
So, it is unfair. And, congress people like Keith Ellison. I would take
his endorsement any day. And, he has endorsed senator Bernie Sanders and
that is a big deal. There was a time in this country where the majority of
folks thought slavery was OK too.

O`DONNELL: Barney, go ahead.

FRANK: That last comment just baffles me. It is going to take me about a
week to figure out what that was supposed to mean. But as far as Keith
Ellison is concerned, I admire Keith. I just signed an e-mail for him.
But, he is one of 45 members of the congressional black caucus and every
other one is for Hillary Clinton.

So, you are talking about the establishment. No, I do not think John
Lewis, one of the great moral leaders of my generation who is a strong
Hillary Clinton supporter, is the establishment, not in a bad way – Or
Luis Gutierrez who is led the fight for immigration. I understand, and
maybe this highlights in.

Senator Sanders was on the picket line. And, that is a good place for
people in labor. But what we want if we are going to make progress is to
be effective within the way government works and to mobilize support for
that. Yes, of course we want change. Hillary Clinton is as committed to
change as Bernie Sanders, so as Barack Obama.

The problem is that Senator Sanders has denigrated the kind of change we
were able to get because his mode of operation is in fact the picket line.
And, if you look at – people have made a big point about no senator was
supporting Ted Cruz until the Trump horror overtook them.

Well, no senator was supporting Bernie Sanders. And, that includes a lot
of committed non-establishment types. So, there is a difference in how you
get things done. There is no great difference in where you want to go.

But the overwhelming – and by the way, it is not just people in congress.
Planned parenthood. The human rights campaign. Leading environmental
groups. Leading budget fairness groups. They prefer Hillary Clinton
because they do appreciate – yes, senator Sanders speaks out, but simply
articulating your position and not doing the hard work of getting
legislation done, which means compromise, which he has a hard time doing –


FRANK: – and that is a problem.

O`DONNELL: I am sorry. We are going to have to squeeze in a quick
commercial here. So, we will have more talk time on the other side of it.
We are going to have more with Barney Frank and Nina Turner in a moment.



CLINTON: I think the first test that you should hold anybody running for
president to see whether or not they meet is can they actually make your
life better?



CLINTON: I want to tell you what I want to do because I want you to hold
me accountable for doing it.


O`DONNELL: We are back with former Congressman Barney Frank, who supports
Hillary Clinton and former Ohio State Senator Nina Turner, who supports
Bernie Sanders. And, Nina turner, to Hillary Clinton`s point and to the
point Barney was just making that Hillary Clinton is the one who is better
equipped and has a better record of actually getting things done than
Bernie Sanders, what is your response to that?

TRUNER: You know, Lawrence, it is really patently unfair for the
congressman to say that Senator Sanders has not been a part of getting
things done in the congress. Let us not forget that he was on the
committee that heard the Affordable Care Act, as a matter of fact, helped
to make the Affordable Care Act a reality.

And, the senator is not against the Affordable Care Act. The only thing
that he is saying is that in this country, there is still 29 million people
who do not have health care and let us work for universal health care in
this country. So, it is patently false to say that he wants to do away
with it. It is patently false to say that he is against the president.

The congressman and I both know that Senator Sanders has voted over 98
percent of the time, he has been right where the democrats are. Let us not
forget that one of the most comprehensive veteran bills that have passed in
recent history was passed with Senator Bernie Sanders having a partnership
with Senator John McCain. So, he does get things done.

He does not just talk the talk. He walks the walk. And, that is very
important. And, people are look for that kind of change, that kind of
righteous indignation in a leader that understands that the working poor
and the middle class have been left behind in this country, that we have a
corrupt system of finance that gives more speech to people who have money
and we have to do something about that.

That is what they are looking for. He was the mayor of the city of
Burlington, where he got a lot done. So, he has been both an
administrator, a member of the house of representatives, and a member of
the senate. And, he has a record to prove that not only can he work and
compromise with people, he can get things done.

But, I do not think it is wrong for him to say that people have been
suffering in this country, that people do deserve a living wage of $15 an
hour. All of those things are important. And, that is what he is fighting

O`DONNELL: Barney Frank, go ahead.

FRANK: Yes, of course. First place, those are non-issues on the
democratic side. The higher minimum wage, increasing health care. There
is a question about how you do it. That is the other point I want to
repeat is I think this is relevant, because the senator and I can talk
about this and people listening.

You have members of congress, democratic members of congress. The
congressional black caucus. The Hispanic caucus. Gay members. Advocates
for health care. Advocates for tougher financial reform. They are
overwhelmingly for Hillary Clinton. Two of the black and Hispanic members
are for Sanders. Five total. But the – and it is based on the view that
she does better.

Yes, we want to expand health care. But you do it by essentially, as
Senator Sanders began by saying in effect replacing what we now have with a
new system, that it would be very hard to pass, or do you build on it
incrementally? Incrementalism to him and I think to his supporters is a
bad word but in the American system that is the only way you can get there.

And, let me give an example of what I think is his rigidity. One of the
most important issues for Hispanics and strongly supported for democrats in
general is amnesty, a legal path to citizenship. There was a bill that
passed the senate that would have done that.

But the only way, you could get it done was to have a broader bill. And,
in fact what happened was Bernie Sanders voted against it. Yes, he is for
a path to citizenship, but he is against doing what you have to do in this
American political system to get it done –

O`DONNELL: Barney.

FRANK: And, on the auto bailout –

O`DONNELL: Barney, I am sorry, we are out of time for tonight. I hope we
can continue this conversation. And, Nina Turner, I know you have a
response on that immigration point.

TURNER: Yes, I do.

O`DONNELL: But we are out of time for tonight. Thank you both. Barney
Frank and Nina Turner.

FRANK: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: I really appreciate you being with us tonight.

TURNER: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

FRANK: Senator, we have got to keep –

O`DONNELL: Coming up, a special last word about what was happening in
America at this very hour on this day in 1968, the day Martin Luther King
Jr. was assassinated.



O`DONNELL: Governors in California and New York signed bills today raising
the minimum wage in both states to $15 an hour gradually over a few years.
The raise passed in California without a single republican vote.

Up next, 2016 has been a very strange campaign year. But, the most chaotic
and dramatic and tragic presidential campaign year was 1968. That is next.


O`DONNELL: And, now tonight`s “Last Word.” On this day, April 4th in
1968, Martin Luther King Jr. spent the day at the Lorraine Motel in Memphis
in a series of planning meetings for his next march on Washington.

At 6:00 p.m., he walked into the courtyard to greet some friends and was
struck down by a single shot from an assassin`s rifle. An hour later at
St. Joseph`s hospital, he was pronounced dead.

Word spread more slowly in those days when no one had phones in their
pockets. And, when presidential candidate Robert Kennedy stepped up to
speak at a campaign event in Indianapolis about an hour later, most people
there did not know what had happened in Memphis.

Richard Lugar was then the Republican Mayor of Indianapolis, and like all
big city mayors he was worried about the possibility of rioting that night
as word of the assassination spread. He told Senator Kennedy that he could
not guarantee his safety at the planned campaign event in the heart of the
black community at 17th and Broadway.

The senator decided to go to the event without any police protection. When
Bobby Kennedy climbed up on the back of a flatbed truck and looked out over
the microphone, he saw a happy crowd of African-American supporters holding
up Kennedy signs. And, he realized, they did not yet know the terrible
news of the night.


Luther King?


KENNEDY: Ladies and gentlemen. I am only going to talk to you just for a
minute or so this evening because I have some very sad news for all of you.
Could you lower those signs, please? I have some very sad news for all of
you, and I think sad news for all of our fellow citizens and people who
love peace all over the world. And, that is that Martin Luther King was
shot and was killed tonight in Memphis.

Martin Luther King dedicated his life to love and to justice between fellow
human beings. He died in the cause of that effort. For those of you who
are black and are tempted to be filled with hatred and mistrust of the
injustice of such an act, against all white people.

I would only say that I can also feel in my own heart the same kind of
feeling. I had a member of my family killed, but he was killed by a white
man. So, we have to make an effort in the United States. We have to make
an effort to understand, to get beyond or go beyond these rather difficult

My favorite poem – my favorite poet was Aeschylus. He once wrote, “Even
in our sleep pain which cannot forget, falls drop by drop upon the heart
until in our own despair against our will comes wisdom through the awful
grace of God.”

What we need in the United States is not division. What we need in the
United States is not hatred. What we need in the United States is not
violence and lawlessness, but is love and wisdom and compassion toward one
another. And, a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within
our country, whether they be white or whether they be black.

So, I ask you tonight, to return home, to say a prayer for the family of
Martin Luther King. Yes, it is true. But more importantly, to say a
prayer for our own country, which all of us love. A prayer for
understanding and that compassion of which I spoke.

The vast majority of white people and the vast majority of black people in
this country want to live together, want to improve the quality of our
life, and want justice for all human beings that abide in our land. And,
dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago, to tame the
savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world. Let us dedicate
ourselves to that.


O`DONNELL: Tens of thousands of people were arrested. Thousands were
injured. Dozens were killed in rioting that began that night in cities all
over America. Indianapolis was not one of them. Two months and two days
later, on the night that he won the California primary, Bobby Kennedy was


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