Giuliani associates arrested. TRANSCRIPT: 10/10/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.

Guests:
Evan McMullin, Norm Orenstein, Rick Wilson, Paul Rosenzweig
Transcript:

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST:  Good evening, Rachel.

 

I have your schedule in front of me, and it says, you have to race to the

airport.  Go. 

 

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST:  I do.  Bye. 

 

O`DONNELL: Bye.

 

Kellyanne Conway`s husband, George Conway, and 15 other conservative

lawyers have co-signed a statement urging the House of Representatives to

expedite its impeachment investigation of the president and move to a

potential trial in the Senate as soon as possible.  One of the co-signers

of that statement will join us at the end of this hour.  And that is the

only co-signer of that letter who has worked on an impeachment case,

himself.  He was one of the prosecutors whose investigation led to the

impeachment of Bill Clinton.  He now wants Donald Trump impeached and

removed from office. 

 

Two of the three people who we know were scheming together to do Donald

Trump`s bidding with Ukraine have been indicted and arrested.  Here`s the

one who did not get arrested today, and here is what Rudy Giuliani said

about his friends getting arrested by the FBI last night: All I can tell

you about this arrest is it comes at a very suspicious time.

 

Well, we can tell you a little bit more about the arrest.  The two

associates of Rudy Giuliani who have been working with him on Ukraine were

arrested for campaign finance violations on indictments brought by

prosecutors in the Southern District of New York – the very same

prosecutors who got Donald Trump`s former lawyer, Michael Cohen, to plead

guilty to campaign finance violations that those prosecutors were said were

done at the direction of Donald Trump in what they called a conspiracy

against the United States to win the presidential election. 

 

The special agony of this for Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani is that it

turns out the prosecutor who has done the most damage in Trump world was

appointed by Donald Trump to be the U.S. attorney for the Southern District

of New York, which was Rudy Giuliani`s old job.  That`s the job that

brought Rudy Giuliani to fame in New York City.  That`s the job Rudy

Giuliani used as his platform to run for mayor of New York City. 

 

There is no appointment that Donald Trump regrets more tonight than making

Geoffrey Berman the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. 

That pains him more than “Mad Dog” Mattis or Rex Tillerson, or John Bolton

or Reince Priebus, or any of the fired members of the Trump administration. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

GEOFFREY BERMAN, U.S. ATTORNEY:  Good afternoon.  I`m Geoff Berman, United

States attorney for the Southern District of New York.  Today, we unsealed

a indictment charging Lev Parnas, Igor Fruman and two co-defendants for

their alleged participation in schemes that violate the federal campaign

finance laws by repeatedly using straw donors and foreign money. 

 

Parnas and Fruman were arrested around 6:00 p.m. last night at Dulles

Airport as they were about to board an international flight with one-way

tickets. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  The movie writes itself.  They`re ready to leave Washington

from Dulles Airport with one-way first-class plane tickets in their hands

to Frankfurt, Germany, perhaps knowing that the feds are closing on them,

perhaps not.  Perhaps knowingly fleeing the country, perhaps not. 

 

They`re watching the minutes tick down.  That`s according to one eyewitness

in “The New York Times”, they are drinking and eating the free food and in

the Lufthansa`s first-class lounge, when the first-class passengers are

invited to board the plane before everyone else, they make their way toward

the plane when suddenly two plain-clothes officers suddenly stopped them,

one of them says, we need to see your passports. 

 

If the FBI had decided to arrest them a little earlier that day at lunch in

Washington at the Trump Hotel, Rudy Giuliani would have been sitting right

beside them. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

BERMAN:  As alleged in the indictment, the defendants broke the law to gain

political influence while avoiding disclosure of who`s actually making the

donations and where the money was coming from.  They saw political

influence not only to advance their own financial interests but to advance

the political interests of at least one foreign official, a Ukrainian

government official who sought the dismissal of the U.S. ambassador to

Ukraine. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  The former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, is

scheduled to voluntarily testify in a meeting tomorrow in a closed-door

deposition.  But President Trump and the White House counsel and the

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo indicated they`re ready to block all

testimony and all documents being handed over to the investigative

committees but there is nothing they can do to stop the U.S. attorney from

the Southern District of New York. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

BERMAN:  Protecting the integrity of our elections and protecting our

elections from unlawful foreign influence are core functions of our

campaign finance laws.  And as this office has made clear, we will not

hesitate to investigate and prosecute those who engage in criminal conduct

that draws into question the integrity of our political process.  And I

want to add that this investigation is continuing. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  This investigation is continuing. 

 

So, if you`re someone who spent a lot of time with Parnas and Fruman like,

say, Rudy Giuliani, this might be a good time to start worrying about what

the guy who now has your old job is up to.  It is standard practice at

moments like this for the U.S. attorney to thank the investigators who

brought a case this far, including FBI investigators.  But today, with the

FBI under constant attack by the president of the United States, those

words of thanks did not sound like the standard round of “thank yous” you

give people at the office. 

 

It sounded like a pointed defiance of the president of the United States by

the man who the president appointed as his U.S. attorney in the Southern

District of New York. 

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

BERMAN:  I also want to thank our partner in this case and so many of our

important cases, the New York office of the FBI represented here today, to

my left, Bill Sweeney, my good friend, the assistant director in charge of

the New York field office, to his left, Mike Driscoll, the special agent in

charge of the criminal division.  And to his left, George Cazami (ph), the

special agent in charge of public corruption at the FBI. 

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL:  And there is some really good news revealed in the indictment

of Rudy Giuliani`s associates.  In the specific candidate elections that

they criminally tried to influence with their illegal contributions, their

Republican candidates lost.  Republican Congressman Pete Sessions lost his

re-election campaign in 2018, even though he took the illegal money. 

 

In Nevada, they tried to win the governorship for Adam Laxalt and

Republican Adam Laxalt lost.  They tried to win the Nevada attorney

general`s race for Republican Wesley Karl – Wesley Karl Duncan.  And they

lost.  And last night at Dulles Airport, they lost big-time. 

 

This afternoon, Donald Trump denied knowing Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman but

“ProPublica” reported this afternoon that Lev Parnas posted photographs of

their dinner at the White House with Donald Trump, on Facebook.  It`s all

there. 

 

Leading off our discussion tonight, Chuck Rosenberg, a former senior FBI

official, former U.S. attorney and a former counsel to Robert Mueller at

the FBI.  He now hosts the MSNBC podcast, “The Oath.”  Also joining us

tonight, Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney for the northern district of

Alabama and an MSNBC legal analyst.  And Evan McMullin, a former CIA

operative, former independent presidential candidate.  He is the co-founder

of Stand Up Republic. 

 

And, Chuck Rosenberg, I want to start with you, and I actually want to

start with that moment which would have been ignorable in news accounts,

anyway, and as we know is routine, where the U.S. attorney turns to the FBI

and thanks them for their work that got them this far.  In today`s

atmosphere with a president of the United States attacking the FBI

relentlessly as he has done, that moment stood out in a way that really it

shouldn`t have, but for me, it really did stand out. 

 

CHUCK ROSENBERG, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY:  I think that`s fair, Lawrence.  You

know, Joyce and I as former U.S. attorneys have both done that.  We`ve

thanked leaders of the FBI and the ATF and the DEA for cases that they

brought, but you`re right.  The FBI has been under attack.  And so, for a

United States attorney to stand up and publicly thank them and thank them

for profusely is not only the right thing to do but also helps send a

message that these men and women in the FBI and the U.S. attorney`s offices

are not political. 

 

By and large, they are career investigators and prosecutors doing hard work

day in and day out.  And so, the thank you was both appropriate and I think

needed.

 

O`DONNELL:  And, Joyce, what does this for these defendants now as possible

witnesses to Congress? 

 

JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST:  It`s an interesting question, Lawrence. 

I think the U.S. attorney`s office in the southern district will want the

first bite at these defendants as possible witnesses.  When you engage in

this sort of an indictment and bring these sorts of defendants in and say

that the investigation is ongoing, it often means that you have an interest

in whether or not these defendants have any cooperation to offer that could

lead to prosecution of bigger fish.  So that, I think, is the first order

of business. 

 

It`s a little bit unusual to have witnesses and defendants in federal cases

whose appearance is wanted in front of Congress, but I think it`s a safe

bet if Congress issues subpoenas that the U.S. Marshal, the U.S. attorney,

the Justice Department, will work with Congress to figure out a suitable

and appropriate way for Congress to acquire the testimony that it`s

lawfully entitled to. 

 

O`DONNELL:  But, Joyce, aren`t they very likely to just take the Fifth

Amendment now on every question? 

 

VANCE:  You know, that`s a possibility with every witness.  Certainly once

you`ve been indicted, you can`t take the Fifth Amendment on every question,

only on the questions where your answers would tend to inculpate you to

make you guilty of a crime or offer evidence of that.  But it`s likely that

there would be a lot of that going on unless some sort of a deal is worked

out, and frankly, if these defendants are smart, and if they receive the

benefit of competent counsel, they will quickly begin to think about the

fact that their best option if they don`t want to spend many years in

prison would be to think about areas where they could cooperate and what

truthful and complete testimony they might be able to offer to prosecutors

in the Southern District. 

 

O`DONNELL:  Evan McMullin, let`s pull back and look at what this story is

in its basic shape.  Close adviser to the president, Rudy Giuliani, on a

special mission for the president, Rudy Giuliani engages these two guys to

help him out and tonight, those two people who were invited to the White

House for dinner with the president because they were so valuable to Rudy

Giuliani and the president on the Ukraine mission, those two people are

indicted and arrested. 

 

EVAN MCMULLIN, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE:  That`s right.  I think we have a lot

more, obviously, to learn about these guys.  But let`s just keep in mind,

you know, what we know already.  We know that they were funneling money

that came from a Ukrainian with Russian roots and Russian ties.  So, could

that be Russian money actually? 

 

So who were these guys to have those contacts?  That`s interesting.  They

were in the middle of an effort to get the U.S. ambassador at the time

fired and replaced.  They were, you know, helping Giuliani pursue foreign

election assistance for the president.  They were involved in funneling

illegal money as they were indicted on today to U.S. politicians. 

 

I mean, I really, you know, these guys were a nexus of activity and I

believe there`s a lot more to learn about them, a lot more to learn about

their activities.  We know they spent time in the White House and with the

president, as you showed, obviously, with Giuliani.  But who else know

about them?  What other contacts did they have in Ukraine, in Russia, in

the United States, in the administration? 

 

Guys like this, especially guys who are this sloppy, which I got to tell

you they seem quite sloppy, they leave – they leave a lot of trail, a lot

of crumbs, a lot of evidence along the way of their wrongdoing.  And I

think there`s a lot more to learn here about these guys and about those who

were involved in the administration with them. 

 

O`DONNELL:  Chuck Rosenberg, reports indicate that Attorney General William

Barr was kept posted on this investigation.  So he knew the investigation

was going on.  He apparently knew that the indictment was being issued.  He

knew the arrests were going to be made. 

 

There are people who`ve been watching Attorney General Barr, people out

there in the country, in our audience, who I think regard him as a

protector of the president in all things.  If – if William Barr wanted to

protect the president from any effect of this investigation, could he have

shut it down? 

 

ROSENBERG:  That would be very, very hard to do.  By design, Lawrence, the

U.S. attorney`s office, the U.S. attorney community, has an extraordinarily

thin political layer.  For instance, in the Southern District of New York,

the only political appointee is the U.S. attorney, Geoffrey Berman. 

Everyone else in that office, everyone else, is a career prosecutor, a

career support person, a career analyst and the like. 

 

And so, the notion that an attorney general could shot down a valid and

predicated investigation in the U.S. attorney`s office seems to me to be

pretty farfetched.  By the way, one minor point that I`d like to make, as

U.S. attorneys, again, Joyce and I had this experience, we have an

obligation to file reports with the Department of Justice, with Main

Justice, when we`re bringing a significant case.  They`re called urgent

reports and they go to the deputy attorney general and often to the

attorney general. 

 

So there`s nothing inherently nefarious about notifying an attorney

general.  It would only be, of course, improper if he or she did something

to thwart or undermine the case.  But, again, I think that`s really hard to

do. 

 

O`DONNELL:  And, Joyce, is it just – when Chuck says it`s really hard to

do, just walk us through it.  If an attorney general did try to block an

investigation like this, and I`m not suggesting that William Barr would do

that, but just for the audience I want to walk through what would happen. 

Would a U.S. attorney resign, for example?  Would a career prosecutor go to

the inspector general of the Justice Department?  What might happen? 

 

VANCE:  You know, prosecutors tend to be people who understand the

department`s traditions and its practices very well.  And prosecutors and

the agents that they work with feel very strongly about their cases

especially when they`re ready for indictment and especially when there`s

something as important as protecting the integrity of American elections. 

So, I would expect that if something like this were to happen, and I think

as Chuck says, there`s no indication that it happened here, every

indication to the contrary, and the urgent report would have been

transmitted to Washington within something like 72 hours of filing an

important case like this, in any event.

 

But prosecutors and agents have begun to show concern to their supervisors,

if they were told the case couldn`t move forward.  And I think ultimately

you would see protests at every level in a U.S. attorney`s office with

everyone from line prosecutors and line agents on all the way up to the

U.S. attorney who as Chuck points out is the only political appointee in

every U.S. attorney`s office, you would see those resignations in protest. 

 

If they were told they couldn`t move forward with a case that they had

appropriate evidence on and reason to believe that they could obtain and

sustain a conviction in. 

 

O`DONNELL:  And, Evan McMullin, I referred in my opening that the movie

writes itself, but in some ways it`s a bad movie.  Meaning the scene right

before the airport is these two guys having lunch with Rudy Giuliani, which

is an OK scene, but it`s at the Trump Hotel in Washington, which is just

too on the nose.  That`s the bad movie version of that scene. 

 

They would have that lunch in some other location and some – they`d make a

more discreet choice in the good movie.  It feels like we`re watching the

bad movie of this stuff. 

 

MCMULLIN:  Yes.  Well, I think what we`re seeing here, Lawrence, is just

the brazenness of the administration and its – and its supporters, its

allies, to break the law in pursuit of illegal election help and other

corrupt activities.  I mean, the idea that they would sort of be involved

in these kinds of activities and sort of meet openly and sort of

demonstrate all their connections on social media openly while engaged in

these kinds of activities, I mean, it is tremendously sloppy.  But it also,

I think, more importantly, shows that they believe they`re operating in an

environment, or they were, they probably have a different idea now, but

they believe they were operating in an environment where they didn`t have

to be careful, where they could engage in this kind of activity and they

were going to be protected. 

 

Why – we should ask why and we should want to know why they felt so sure

of that. 

 

O`DONNELL:  Well, when the president of the United States is on your team,

you might feel pretty –

 

MCMULLIN:  That`s right. 

 

O`DONNELL:  – protected. 

 

MCMULLIN:  That`s what I`m getting at. 

 

O`DONNELL:  I want to introduce some more breaking news we`re dealing with

at this hour from the “Washington Post,” it expands significantly on a

passage in the whistle-blower`s official report about Donald Trump`s

conversation with the president of Ukraine in which, of course, Donald

Trump solicited the help from the president of Ukraine in his re-election

campaign by asking Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden. 

 

The whistleblower`s report, remember, says this: the White House officials

who told me this information were deeply disturbed by what had transpired

in the phone call.  They told me that there was already a discussion

ongoing with White House lawyers about how to treat the call because of the

likelihood in the official`s retelling that they had witnessed the

president abuse his office for personal gain.

 

In other words, they were concerned that they witnessed the president

possibly committing a crime or an impeachable offense. 

 

And here is what the “Washington Post” is adding to that tonight: At least

four national security officials were so alarmed by Trump administration`s

attempts to pressure Ukraine for political purposes that they raised

concerns with a White House lawyer both before and immediately after

President Trump`s July 25th call with that country`s president, according

to U.S. officials and other people familiar with the matter.  Those

concerns soared in the call`s aftermath, officials said.  Within minutes,

senior officials including national security adviser John Bolton were being

pinged by subordinates about problems with what the president had said to

his Ukrainian counterpart. 

 

Bolton and others scrambled to obtain a rough transcript that was already

being locked down on a highly classified computer network.”  “The

Washington Post” least one official went immediately to John Eisenberg, a

White House lawyer for national security matters. 

 

Joining our conversation now is Jeremy Bash.  He`s an MSNBC national

security analyst and former chief of staff at CIA, and the Defense

Department. 

 

Jeremy, I want to get your reaction to that new “Washington Post”

reporting, indicating people in the White House were worried about this

phone call before it happened.  And then after it happened, they went into

red alert about it. 

 

JEREMY BASH, MSNBC NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST:  That`s right.  Well, since

the election of President Zelensky in the spring earlier this year, there

had been a campaign that had been launched, directed clearly by the

president in conjunction with Rudy Giuliani to pressurize Zelensky, to

present this ultimatum to him that – and to require him to support the

president`s re-election campaign.  And, of course, as the military aid, as

the security assistance for Ukraine was hanging in the balance, the

pressure went up. 

 

And it kind of culminated in the July 25th phone call but there was this

time period even beforehand when senior national security officials,

according to this reporting, were able to see exactly the way the president

was conducting this shadow secret parallel foreign policy with Ukraine for

political purposes.  And so, they were on guard.  When this phone call

happened, I think they immediately knew this wasn`t merely Trump being

Trump.  He wasn`t joking around.  He wasn`t just not playing by the rules. 

 

This was a deliberate, carefully orchestrated effort by him and others,

including Rudy Giuliani, to pressure the Ukrainian president to, quote,

play ball and to provide that political dirt on Joe Biden. 

 

O`DONNELL:  And, Chuck Rosenberg, to the point that the “Washington Post”

raises that people in the White House were worried about the phone call

before the phone call happened.  That would be part of interpreting what

was going on in that phone call once you`re taking a look at that rough

transcript of it. 

 

ROSENBERG:  Yes, that`s absolutely right.  And, by the way, Lawrence, you

know, on one hand, you have this president sort of abusing his authority,

acting in a really sort of dramatically nefarious way for personal

political gain.  On the other hand, this gives me some hope, you have a

cadre of career national security officials, career diplomats, career

professionals, who know what wrong looks like and did something about it,

right? 

 

I mean, the reason we`re talking about this, the reason we know about it,

is because folks stepped forward.  Maybe at personal risk to their own

careers, their own profession, their own reputation, and let us know what

they saw and heard.  And so, in many ways, even though you had this

remarkably broken apparatus in the White House led by the president, you

also have career men and women doing their jobs and thank goodness for

that. 

 

O`DONNELL:  And, Joyce, “The Washington Post” includes reporting about some

of the things that preceded the phone call including the Bolton went

ballistic scene.  And that involves the man who refused to testify to

Congress this week, Ambassador Sondland, who was in a meeting in the White

House where he started talking about what the president needed from Ukraine

in terms of investigations and it says, senior officials understood

Sondland`s statement to be a reference to Biden and Bolton went ballistic.

 

And then after the meeting, the official said, in the ensuing days, the NEC

officials including Bolton huddled over their concerns for Ukraine.

 

And, Joyce, today`s the day when my speculation on the day John Bolton was

fired that he would immediately be seeking a book deal that was confirmed,

“Axios” reporting today that he`s got the book agent all lined up and this

is going to be one of those stories that John Bolton, if he hasn`t already

testified to Congress about it, will probably be telling in his book. 

 

VANCE:  I think Congress will try their best to get his testimony before

them.  As a former employee, he has very little shield to hide behind in

terms of executive or some other kind of privilege unless he tries to carry

the president`s water, as several of the former White House employees have

so far, but Bolton hopefully will be brought before Congress pursuant to

his subpoena, will be asked to testify because it`s clear that Bolton is

one of the key players who`s involved in both the pre-action and the

reaction to this call.

 

And to the extent that there`s a cover-up that occurs, Bolton would be a

material witness to that and Congress needs to hear what he has to say. 

You know, like Chuck says, there are a lot of people here who at great risk

to themselves came forward, did the right thing.  I`m sure it was a

difficult decision.  It was slow and it was halting. 

 

But now, it`s time for the American people to hear the truth and Bolton

should not be permitted to avoid doing his duty in this regard. 

 

O`DONNELL:  And, Evan McMullin, John Bolton had the typically negative

experience exiting the White House, being kicked out.  Well, actually John

Bolton claiming he was resigning.  Trump claiming, I fired you before you

could resign and you`re stupid, was basically Donald Trump`s exit gift. 

John Bolton, we know, is the kind of person who would have a very strong

personal reaction to that kind of exit. 

 

MCMULLIN:  Absolutely.  And, you know, I just, as we read these stories,

the more we learn, I think it`s interesting that what`s emerging is this

picture of Washington as this is happening, certainly in July, after July

as well.  But really, everyone in Washington seems to have known about this

and how problematic the president`s approach to Ukraine was and his holding

of this military aid. 

 

You had officials in the White House even before the July 25th call who are

concerned about it.  They heard the call.  They were even additionally

concerned. 

 

Officials at OMB knew and were concerned.  Officials at the CIA were

concerned.  Congress was concerned.  And we`re all learning about this. 

The American people are learning about this, too, now. 

 

As the president continues to try to say, hey, there`s nothing to see here,

what I did was perfect, my conversation was perfect, there`s nothing wrong

with what I did.  Really what is emerging is this picture that everyone

actually disagreed with him and everyone knew this was very wrong and very

dangerous and very much not in the interest on a lot of levels of the

American – of the country and of the American people. 

 

And I think that`s going to be important as the impeachment process or the

inquiry, at least, moves forward.  This sort of narrative that`s shaping up

very clearly I think is going to be important for the education of the

American people about what the problem was here as they and their

representatives consider whether impeachment is appropriate. 

 

O`DONNELL:  Jeremy Bash, there`s a very interesting note raised in the

“Washington Post” reporting tonight about behind the scenes in the White

House, the kind of panic level before the president`s phone call to Ukraine

and the increase in that panic level after the president`s phone call to

Ukraine, and it makes the point that I had not considered before the

“Washington Post” reported it that there is no inspector general for the

White House.  And so, the people working in the White House who wanted some

attention brought to this situation may have felt it necessary to go

outside the White House to someone in the intelligence community, to

someone who was under the jurisdiction of an inspector general, who that

person could then report to. 

 

That may be the reason the whistleblower`s report was filed the way it was

and the reason why his sources were people, in effect, coming from the

White House where they didn`t have the same whistleblower mechanism that

they could access that this whistle-blower could in the intelligence

community. 

 

BASH:  I mean, that`s really smart, Lawrence.  Hadn`t thought of that, but

you`re exactly right, which is that our whistleblower statutes protect

individuals serving in various departments and agencies and, of course,

Intelligence Community Whistleblower Act is fairly strong and it does

protect, in this case, this initial whistleblower from any retaliation and

White House officials may not enjoy that same. 

 

So I think we can potentially expect that others from the departments and

agencies who enjoy that whistleblower protection may also be potential

witnesses here.  And, again, I think it underscores the main point which is

the conduct at issue, the president`s own conduct, we already know about

it.  It`s already in the call record. 

 

There`s not much more we need to know in order to determine whether or not

the president solicited foreign interference in the United States election. 

 

O`DONNELL:  Jeremy Bash, Joyce Vance, everyone – Chuck Rosenberg, thank

you all very much for joining us with this breaking news.  Really

appreciate it. 

 

MCMULLIN:  Thank you. 

 

And when we come back, the poll numbers on impeachment and removal from

office continue to rise.  The Fox News poll that showed a majority in favor

of removing the president from office is now being supported by new polling

today.  That has Republican senators who know impeachment is going to come

to them in the Senate running scared.  You`ll see some video of that when

we come back. 

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

O`DONNELL: Not surprisingly the new Fox News Poll showing a majority of

registered voters favors not just impeachment of the President but removal

from office. Sent Donald Trump into a tizzy of lying about the impeachment

polls and what they show.

 

The Fox News Poll is supported by other polls out today with similar

numbers, but the Fox News Poll has Republican Senators worried at least as

much as Donald Trump is worried about it. Republican Senators now know that

impeachment is coming their way. Republican Senators now know that the

House of Representatives is going to make them jurors in the impeachment

trial of Donald Trump in the United States Senate on probably multiple

articles of impeachment.

 

And by the time those articles of impeachment come to a trial in the

Senate, that 51 percent supporting removal from office in the Fox News Poll

might be higher. It might be much higher because that`s the way the polls

are moving. Republican Senators know that support for impeachment and

removal from office has only moved in one direction in the polls.

 

And so for Republican Senators who are up for re-election next year, in

states that could easily go Democratic, the new Trump evidence of

impeachable offenses and the new Fox News polling about impeachment have

created a public minefield that they do not know how to navigate. They are

desperate now.

 

Here is Republican Senator Cory Gardner of Colorado who is currently

running behind Democratic candidate John Hickenlooper in the polls in his

re-election campaign in Colorado.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe it`s appropriate for the President of the

United States to ask a foreign leader to investigate a political rival? Yes

or no.

 

SEN. CORY GARDNER (R-CO): Look, this is what we`re going to get into it.

The Senate Intelligence Committee is having an investigation, a bipartisan

investigation. Unfortunately, though, what we`ve seen is a very political

process takes over.

 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the question is, is it appropriate for a President

to be able–

 

GARDNER: Actually we`re going to have an investigation, it`s a non-partisan

investigation.

 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Senator it is a yes-or-no question.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL: It is a yes or no question. After this break, we`ll be joined by

Rick Wilson and Norm Orenstein to consider the quickly changing politics of

impeachment and why the polls on impeachment are all moving in the same

direction only one direction. That`s next.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

O`DONNELL: Here is Former Trump National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster

today saying what Republican Senators are so far afraid to say.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think it is appropriate for the President of

the United States to solicit foreign interference in our political process?

Thank you.

 

H. R. MCMASTER, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: Of course, no. No,

it`s absolutely not. And, of course, what has to happen here is, you know,

play - seeing our democracy play out, right? The separation of power play

out and for the American people through the Representatives and the

Representatives in Congress to make a judgment as to whether or not that

happened. To answer your question directly, of course, it`s not

appropriate.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL: Joining our discussion now is Norm Orenstein, Congressional

Historian and Resident Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and

all-round Washington Wiseman who has been advising policymakers in

Washington for decades. And Rick Wilson is with us, a Republican Strategist

and Contributor to “The Daily Beast”. He is the author of “Everything Trump

Touches Dies.”

 

Rick, I can never quite get through the title without cracking a little

bit. Norm, let me begin with you. We just saw H.R. McMaster do it; wow it

looked easy when he did it.

 

NORM ORENSTEIN, THE ATLANTIC CONTRIBUTING EDITOR: And it is easy. This is

black-letter law and norms and built and baked into our political system.

To watch Cory Gardner and before him Joni Ernst try not to even answer the

simplest question here, really shows the dilemma that they feel and felt

for the last two-plus years.

 

They`ve enabled Donald Trump. They have bowed to the way in which he has

intimidated them with pressure including from that base that is in their

states. And they`ve sat through what we now see as a level of corruption

that is unparalleled in our history. It`s like you go into a house and

there`s a body and suddenly in every room and under every table there`s

another one and it`s cascading and it`s going to get worse and we`re going

to see people turning.

 

Sondland now, going to give a deposition despite what the Secretary of

State said, the Ambassador to the EU. More rats will leave the sinking ship

and it`s going to change the dynamic here. Maybe moral cowards will get a

little bit of spine but not because they`ve become moral, only because

they`re cowardice turns them in another direction.

 

O`DONNELL: Now in contrast to H.R. McMaster, let`s take a look at Mike

Pence. It`s Vaughn Hillyard who is just putting a very simple question to

Mike Pence. Let`s watch this struggle.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you ever aware, Mr. Vice president, the interest in

the Bidens that the interest in investigating the Bidens was at least in

part of the reason for aid to Ukraine being held up?

 

MICHAEL PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES: I - I never discussed the

issue of - the issue of the Bidens with President Zelensky.

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the administration, were you ever aware within the

administration–

 

PENCE: What I can tell you is that all our discussions internally, the

President and our team and our contacts and my office with Ukraine were

entirely focused on the broader issues, the lack of European support.

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you were aware of the interest–

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL: Rick, the question was very simply, were you ever aware that the

Bidens were part of the equation dealing with Ukraine? And President Trump.

I think the real answer was my lawyers have not told me how to answer that

question yet.

 

RICK WILSON, THE DAILY BEAST CONTRIBUTOR: I think you`re exactly right,

Lawrence. I think that Mike Pence is in a very odd position right now. The

one hand, he`s in this minefield where if he reveals anything that he

knows, Trump`s fury with him could lead to very, very bad consequences.

 

If he lies about it, he`s going to get dinged when the investigation grinds

on which as you correctly point out, this is going to continue and as Norm

pointed out, this is going to continue. It`s going to peel back more

layers. There will be more moments where we discover maybe Mike Pence was

in the room, maybe he wasn`t, maybe he had these discussions, maybe he

didn`t.

 

But the paranoia and the fear and the constant sense that you`re in the

middle of a minefield with Donald Trump is going to lead all these people,

they`re going to all stonewall, they`re all going to hold it back until the

very last minute, but once that first mover starts taking the deals, and

once that first mover decides they`re going to get out the door and not be

a part of this - the ship that`s not only full of rats but on fire headed

into a volcano at the same time, they`re going to make a decision that they

have to, you know, have some political survival imperatives are going to

kick in at some point.

 

O`DONNELL: And, Norm, Donald Trump is the very first President running for

re-election who is actually having - facing polling on the question of his

impeachment. We`ve never seen a President in an impeachment situation

running for re-election. The other numbers in the Fox News Poll are

absolutely devastating to a President running for re-election. They`re

getting overshadowed by impeachment numbers.

 

Let`s take a look at those. They show three Democrats with ten-point leads

basically on Donald Trump. Joe Biden leads Donald Trump in the Fox News

Poll 50 - 40. Elizabeth Warren, exactly the same result, 50 - 40. Ten

points ahead of the incumbent President. Bernie Sanders nine points ahead

there at 49 - 40. Those would be big headline polling numbers if we didn`t

have a bigger headline polling number in the impeachment number.

 

ORESNSTEIN: I`d like to see them ask the question of whether a potted plant

would do well against Donald Trump. I think it would be 50 - 40 as well.

But, you know, one of the things that`s so interesting here is Trump

defines fake news as anything that`s bad about him. And now all of a

sudden, Fox News is purveying fake news and he`s going after his allies as

well.

 

And those allies are going to start to behave in a different fashion when,

as Rick said, the layers are peeled off even a little bit more. It`s

astonishing to me that we haven`t seen a little more of that. And, you

know, we have the people up for re-election who are scared to death. The

deer`s in the headlights.

 

You look at a Lamar Alexander who`s retiring who still will not come out

for impeachment and it shows you the level of cult like behavior in the

party. It`s going to take a while.

 

O`DONNELL: But, Rick, part of that is for some of the Republican Senators,

they now know that the House of Representatives is going to send them this

case. It`s coming their way. They could–

 

WILSON: They know it.

 

O`DONNELL: –encourage the House or not. It`s not going to matter. The

Democrats are going to vote articles of impeachment, send them over to the

Senate. So those Republican Senators have time to think about this as it

comes at them.

 

WILSON: They do have time, and they`re all sweating it very heavily right

now. And this is why they`re issuing statements, for instance, on the

question in Syria right now, these anodyne statements saying, oh, I oppose

the administration`s position. They`re starting to establish a little bit

of daylight here and there without mentioning Donald Trump by name because

they`re not going to find their courage until after their filing deadlines

in their respective states.

 

So I think that the danger here is that they know this is coming from the

House. They also know that every presidential referendum, election is a

referendum on the incumbent. This is a question on the incumbent

referendum. They`re going be judged on this.

 

O`DONNELL: Rick Wilson, Norm Orenstein, thank you both very much for

joining us tonight.

 

ORENSTEIN: Thank you, Lawrence.

 

O`DONNELL: And when we come back, Kellyanne Conway`s husband is leading a

group of conservative lawyers making a case for an expedited impeachment

investigation, and instead of just tweeting about it, we actually heard

Kellyanne Conway`s husband speak about it yesterday. It`s the first time

we`ve heard George Conway`s voice in over a year. That`s next.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

O`DONNELL: Donald Trump has no more determined opponent than Kellyanne

Conway`s husband George Conway, who has spent his career on the

conservative side of the street in Washington as a Washington lawyer.

George Conway tweets almost as much as Donald Trump, but it has been about

a year, a little less than a year since we have heard him make a public

comment in his own voice.

 

He finally did speak yesterday on Preet Bharara`s podcast, and this is what

he had to say about the man his wife works for.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

GEORGE CONWAY, KELLYANNE CONWAY`S HUSBAND: He can`t take into account the

interests of the country. He can`t take into account the interests of the

constitution. He can`t take into account his duties, and he puts his self,

his own interest above the country`s in almost any circumstance.

 

And that`s exemplified by the most recent scandal, the Ukraine scandal,

where he`s essentially using his office - he is using his office, using the

power of potentially withholding funds or even simply the power of the

presidency to extort a smaller nation to try to get that nation to issue

some kind of a statement against Trump`s principle political rival.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL: One thing George Conway is mystified by is why Republicans in

Congress and Republicans working in the Trump White House and the Trump

Administration continue to support Donald Trump. Preet Bharara asked a

question that seems to have liked a wicked obvious answer, and here`s how

that went.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

PREET BHARARA, FORMER UNITED STATES ATTORNEY FOR SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW

YORK: Are there people you`re most disappointed in this regard?

 

CONWAY: I think this disappointment runs very broadly. It`s just amazing to

me that there - that there really isn`t anyone? And I don`t mean to be -

it`s just disappointing to me that there isn`t somebody of some stature

who`s willing to just say this man`s unfit because they all know it. They

just all know it. You know they know it. And I don`t know what`s so hard

about saying it. It`s obvious.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL: It`s obvious. I wonder who he could be disappointed in. One

person he`s not disappointed in is Republican conservative lawyers who

cosigned a statement with George Conway saying that the House of

Representatives should move quickly on the impeachment investigation into

President Trump.

 

That Republican lawyer who cosigned it with him, who knows something about

impeachment will join us. He was one of the lawyers in the special

prosecutor`s office investigation led to the impeachment of President

Clinton. He now wants President Trump impeached by the House of

Representatives and removed by the Senate. He will join us next.

 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

 

O`DONNELL: Paul Rosenzweig who was one of the prosecutors that led to the

impeachment of President Clinton believes the evidence is clear in the

Trump/Ukraine phone call rough transcripts brought out by the White House.

Paul Rosenzweig told “The Washington Post” it strikes me that no reasonable

attorney can doubt that there was a quid pro quo here.

 

I would vote for impeachment and I would vote for conviction and removal in

the Senate as well. Joining us is Paul Rosenzweig. He cosigned a statement

along with George Conway and 14 other conservative lawyers with Washington

experience who are all urging the House of Representatives to expedite the

impeachment of President Trump.

 

Paul, thank you very much for joining us again tonight. You were last with

us in May when you found the Mueller report to be sufficient evidence to go

forward with an impeachment proceeding in the House of Representatives. You

now find the Ukraine phone call to be, what, even stronger evidence or just

additional evidence?

 

PAUL ROSENZWEIG, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT,

SECRETARY FOR POLICY: Well, if the Mueller report is the straw that broke

the camel`s back, this is the straw that breaks the next six camels down

the road. The President here is clearly using public authority to advance

his personal interests.

 

And that`s not just inappropriate and illegal it`s an abuse of his office

and an abuse of the public trust, and precisely the type of action that the

founders viewed as unfit. Their primary concern at the time was foreign

influence on America. And here we have a President who has walked right

back into that history.

 

O`DONNELL: I want to listen to something that George Conway said yesterday

on Preet Bharara`s Podcast, and this is about people working in Trump

world, people working in Republican positions in Washington and why they do

not come forward and resign if not just kind of hand over the goods on the

President? Let`s listen to this.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

CONWAY: I think the calculation they should be making is he is going to be

gone at some point, and there is going to be a reckoning, and history isn`t

going to be kind to people who said nothing or stood up for Trump. But that

said, even if you don`t believe in that, it`s clear that they`re not sure

which way to go, and if you`re not sure which way to go, why not just do

the right thing?

 

BHARARA: Is your advice to people in his inner circle to quit?

 

CONWAY: If you can`t have a positive effect on him, and I don`t think

anybody can, yes.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

O`DONNELL: Paul, I think he knows someone in the inner circle much better

than you do, but you do know people in that world. What is your sense of

why we haven`t seen a string of principled resignations from the Trump

Administration over time?

 

ROSENZWEIG: Well, it`s hard for me to project, but I think it is - it is

self justifying commitment. They went down this road with Trump, and long

ago they believed wrongly, but maybe with not totally bad reason that he

wouldn`t be as bad, that he`d surround himself with good people. They`d get

some good policies.

 

And they`ve so committed themselves to him now that for them to leave at

this point is essentially to admit that for the last two years, they`ve

been wrong and they`ve had the wool pulled over their eyes by a charlatan.

And that`s really hard for anybody to admit to. So now they`re in a

position where to walk away is to say I`m an idiot. But to stay is to say

I`m with this idiot.

 

O`DONNELL: I can`t think of a better way of putting it. Paul Rosenzweig

gets tonight`s LAST WORD, and that word is “Idiot.” Thank you, Paul, for

joining us once again. We really appreciate it.

 

ROSENZWEIG: Thanks for having me.

 

O`DONNELL: That is tonight`s THE LAST WORD. “THE 11TH HOUR” with Brian

Williams starts now.

 

 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY

BE UPDATED.

END      

 

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