Trump called Sen. Warren “Pocahantas” Transcript 11/27/17 The Last Word with Lawrence O’Donnell

Dan Rather. Joyce Vance, David Frum, Barney Frank

Date: November 27, 2017
Guest: Dan Rather. Joyce Vance, David Frum, Barney Frank


You know, Chris Hayes told me earlier tonight he believes he is now in
charge of the 9:00 p.m. hour at MSNBC. But I believe it is written in law
that you are in charge of the 9:00 p.m. hour –



MADDOW: And, you know, when Chris Hayes shows up here tomorrow at 9:00, I
will tell you this I`m not going to leave him the office –


O`DONNELL: I think Chris actually – I think Chris can actually read that
law that says that you are in charge of the 9:00 p.m. hour and I understand
that he`s actually very happy in the 8:00 p.m. hour.

MADDOW: I got you to – well, you know, I think that`s fair. A, I
appreciate you starting this fight. B, I appreciate you taking my side.

But looking ahead to the thing tomorrow like, I got to say, if I thought I
was running an agency and somebody else showed up and said they were
running it, first of all, I would never leave the building. And second of
all, I would make sure that I was there earlier than the next guy. Like,
if I was Leandra English, I`d be at the CFPB tomorrow at 4:00 a.m.

O`DONNELL: Yes, as a former federal worker in Washington, I was wondering
things like, so how did Mulvaney get an ID that get him into the building
and unto the elevator? It is only Donald Trump`s Washington. We`ve never
seen this one before.

MADDOW: It all gets weird in new ways every day.

O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.

MADDOW: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: I expect to see you again tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m., which I
believe you own here on MSNBC.

MADDOW: Dukes up, I`ll be there.

O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.

MADDOW: Thanks, man.

O`DONNELL: Well, we have known all that year that Michael Flynn has a
story to tell and now one of the lawyers for former national security
adviser Michael Flynn met this morning with members of special prosecutor
Robert Mueller`s team according to ABC News. The ABC news report did not
actually cite any sources.

Now, if this report is true, this is very big development in the
investigation. NBC News has not verified that report. That ABC report
follows a report from “The New York Times” on Thanksgiving Day saying
lawyers from Michael T. Flynn notified the president`s legal team in recent
days that they could no longer discuss the special counsel`s investigation,
according to four people involved in the case, an indication that Mr. Flynn
is cooperating with prosecutors or negotiating a deal.

Michael Flynn`s legal team had been sharing information with President
Trump`s lawyers about the Mueller investigation as “The New York Times”
explains, this is a common thing. Defense lawyers frequently share
information during investigations, but they must stop when doing so would
pose a conflict of interest. It is unethical for lawyers to work together
when one client is cooperating with prosecutors and another is still under

“The Times” reports that President Trump`s lawyers now believe that, quote,
Mr. Flynn who along with his son is seen as having significant criminal
exposure has at the least begun discussions with Mr. Mueller about
cooperating. In March of this year, Michael Flynn`s lawyer publicly
advertised that Michael Flynn was willing to tell his story if he could get
an immunity deal.

And once the special prosecutor appointed in May, the only immunity deal
that mattered was an immunity deal with the special prosecutor. In March,
Michael Flynn`s lawyer said General Flynn certainly has a story to tell.
And he very much wants to tell it, should the circumstances permit.

And so, the question tonight is, do the circumstances now permit Michael
Flynn to tell that story to special prosecutor Robert Mueller?

During the presidential campaign, Michael Flynn offered this insight as to
what he thinks an immunity deal means.


immunity, that means that you have probably committed a crime.


O`DONNELL: Robert Mueller is investigating a private meeting Michael Flynn
had with former Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak and Jared Kushner during
the presidential transition. Robert Mueller is also investigating other
conversations between Michael Flynn and Russians, including one with the
Russian ambassador as the Obama administration was unveiling sanctions in
December against Russia in retaliation for interfering in the 2016

Months after President Trump fired Michael Flynn, Trump was still praising


years. He`s a general. He`s – in my opinion, a very good person.


O`DONNELL: Today, “The Washington Post” reports that Michael Flynn`s legal
issues could be further complicated by a June 2015 trip to Egypt and Israel
paid for by a U.S. company that hoped to build nuclear plants in the region
in partnership with Russian interests.

Michael Flynn was advising that company. As “The Post” reports he
apparently failed to disclose his ties to that effort. Quote:
Congressional Democrats say that Flynn may have violated federal law by
failing to disclose the Middle Eastern trip in his security clearance
renewal application in 2016.

Joining us now, Joyce Vance, professor of University of Alabama School of
Law and a former federal prosecutor. Also with us, David Frum, senior
editor for “The Atlantic.”

And, Professor Vance, what do you make of the new report of Michael Flynn`s
counsel no longer cooperating with other defense counsel and the ABC report
indicating that Michael Flynn`s counsel actually met today with special
prosecutor Mueller`s team?

JOYCE VANCE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: So, taken together and if true,
those two reports would seem to signal that Flynn has definitely withdrawn
from a joint defense agreement. In fact, we hear from Trump`s lawyers that
that joint defense agreement, which is an agreement that targets or
subjects of an investigation, a conspiracy, will form together so that they
can share information but retain its shielding from disclosure to the
prosecution via the attorney/client privilege, typically, you have to
withdraw from that type of an agreement once you begin to negotiate a plea
deal, a cooperation deal, with prosecutors.

It looks like that`s what`s going on here. It`s just difficult to know
whether it`s still being negotiated or whether it`s been firmed up.

O`DONNELL: And, David Frum, we have a report from “The New York Times”
that indicates Michael Flynn may be more concerned with his son than is
safe for the Trump administration. It says, Mr. Flynn is regarded as loyal
to Mr. Trump but he has in recent weeks expressed serious concerns to
friends that prosecutors will bring charges against his son, Michael Flynn
Jr., who served as his father`s chief of staff and was part of several
financial deals involving the elder Mr. Flynn that Mr. Mueller is

And, David Frum, I don`t think you want someone trying to choose between
his son and Donald Trump if you`re Donald Trump.

DAVID FRUM, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Though Donald Trump might make a
difference choice about his children.

O`DONNELL: Sure would.

FRUM: Here, the Flynn and Flynn Jr. relationship is very transparent. One
of the things I – I think a lot of people have had this question. The
Trump/Flynn relationship is really baffling.

Think of this. Have you ever heard Donald Trump say anything nice about
his Vice President m Michael Pence? Have you heard him say anything nice
about his – about any member of his cabinet? He sometimes has some nice
things to say about James Mattis but not since he become as secretary. He
doesn`t have anything nice to say about the secretary of state, he never
has anything very nice to say even about the first lady of the United
States, his wife.

And yet, for Michael Flynn, there`s praise after praise after praise. Now,
maybe this is an exception to the rule that Donald Trump does not have
warm, human feelings, but there is – this is the big sort of pirate`s
chest of mystery, the Trump/Flynn relationship. What is going on there?
Because it`s something obviously, to borrow the president`s language, very,
very special.

O`DONNELL: And, Professor Vance, I want to go to your experience as
prosecutor. This is something, David just isolated something said I know
prosecutors do pay attention to because there`s a certain assumption that
there`s limited or no communication at this time like this between possible
defendants, say possibly Donald Trump and Michael Flynn. But you become
very interested in what communication you actually can pick up and it is
very smart of Donald Trump in this limited context to be constantly
praiseful of Michael Flynn – in other words, to say nothing, to do nothing
to in any way alienate Michael Flynn?

VANCE: What`s most interesting about the president`s efforts to keep Flynn
on board is that he`s done it in a very public way. I don`t have any doubt
that Bob Mueller has someone on his team who track these sorts of
communications, whether they`re on Twitter or other kinds of public
pronouncements and could they ultimately provide some evidence of intent,
state of mind, even of obstruction? I think it`s premature to tell.

But certainly, this level of interaction has to be something that the
president`s lawyers are telling him to avoid doing, because it really could
come back to haunt him, and yet he seems drawn to do it again and again.

O`DONNELL: David Frum, from the very beginning of the year, say, starting
in March, when this issue started to get worthy of serious investigation,
it seemed very clear that Michael Flynn was the most vulnerable person in
the Trump administration to possible criminal investigation, criminal
indictment. And yet, here we are at this distance into it and it does seem
as though this White House gets surprised by the obvious – the ultimate
indictment of Paul Manafort after there was a raid at his home which
indicated this was imminent. They still seem surprised when what seems
inevitable actually happens.

FRUM: Well, their lawyer Ty Cobb is endlessly assuring them that this
investigation doesn`t have much longer to go, that everything at a happy
resolution for them. And I don`t know what Ty Cobb – whether that`s Ty
Cobb`s client management or whether Ty Cobb believes it or whether maybe he
does have information, although federal prosecutors are not normally in the
habit we`re not about to indict you or we are on the verge of closing the

But I want to point to something and this is a point you have often made,
Lawrence, about remember – this all started with Michael Flynn having a
conversation with Russian ambassador but not renewing sanctions in a Trump
administration. The Senate has voted overwhelmingly. The Congress voted
overwhelmingly to re-impose the sanctions, and yet, the president used the
discretion to not allow them to go forward, to prevent them. They are not
in effect even now, at almost at the beginning of December.

Michael Flynn`s promise to the Russian ambassador was honored. There is
something here that is more than just a legal story. There`s also a big
foreign policy story.

O`DONNELL: Joyce, that`s such an interesting point that David makes. Are
prosecutors looking at that? Are they actually looking at the policy
choices that the president is making that are within his legal discretion
but do seem to favor Russia? Do they look at that as they`re investigating
the possibility of Russian influence?

VANCE: They have to be doing that. David makes a really good point and I
think the ultimate impact of what he`s saying is, are we looking with Flynn
just at a failure to register or is there something far more involved, more
detrimental to U.S. interests here? Could there, in fact, be some sort of
a quid pro quo that impacted policy in the United States?

You know, one place that Mueller`s team starts I suspect is Sally Yates`
very carefully tailored public testimony in which she bent over backwards
to avoid disclosing anything that was classified but repeatedly referred to
Flynn as being compromised. And that suggests that there`s something here
to look at and that that those policy choices may, in fact, be evidence of
an agreement that was previously made with a foreign government.

O`DONNELL: And, David Frum, should Donald Trump be questioned about this
by the special prosecutor at some point he would be – could be asked about
his conversations with Barack Obama who as president was saying to Donald
Trump, don`t hire this guy. The one piece of personnel advice is, do not
hire Michael Flynn.

FRUM: Well, Gerald Ford volunteered to testify to Congress. George W.
Bush spoke voluntarily to the 9/11 Commission. It`s always a complicated
question whether you can force a president to talk, but presidents have
historically when it came time volunteered to talk and it will be an
interesting question whether Donald Trump volunteers.

O`DONNELL: David Frum and Joyce Vance, thank you both very much for
joining us tonight.

FRUM: Thank you.

VANCE: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, only in Donald Trump`s Washington could you have two
people thinking they were in charge of the same federal agency on the same
day. Barney Frank, whose legislation created that agency, joins us next.

And, President Trump has managed to revive the “Access Hollywood” video
that came out during the campaign showing him boasting about his favorite
methods of sexual assault and even “Access Hollywood” had to do a special
comment on their show tonight.


O`DONNELL: Only in Donald Trump`s Washington could two people each believe
that each of them is the head of the same federal agency on the same day.
That happened today when the president sent his budget director to work as
the head of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which is in the
business of doing what its title suggests – protecting consumers. The job
became vacant on Friday when the director Obama appointee Richard Cordray
suddenly resigned in what appears to be preparations for a campaign for
governor of Ohio.

According to the law that established the Consumer Protection Bureau, such
a vacancy should be filled by the deputy director, Leandra English, just
before resigning on Friday, Cordray promoted Leandra English to the
position of deputy director, with the expectation that she would become
acting director when he left. The Trump administration is citing a 1998
law that allows the president in some cases to designate acting directors
of federal agencies simply by choosing virtually anyone who is already
working in the administration.

Senator Elizabeth Warren, who was an original advocate of the very idea of
a consumer protection bureau, said this today.


provide its own succession plan and that was a decision for Congress to
make. Not for the president to make, but for Congress to make. So, the
statute is very clear. It says that there`s a director and if the director
is unavailable, the deputy director becomes the acting director. Done.
There`s no vacancy here for the president to be able to fill.


MADDOW: Joining us now, the co-author of Dodd/Frank, Barney Frank, former
congressman of Massachusetts, former chairman of the House Financial
Services Committee.

So, can you settle this for us? Who`s right? Whose job is this?

BARNEY FRANK (D-MA), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Well, we clearly intended it
to be – I think English at this point. The context is very important.
When we created the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, we took consumer
protection from all the other bank agencies, consumer protection was an
afterthought to the main issue of every other bank agency. Counter-
intuitively, the federal bank regulator that had the most statute authority
was the Federal Reserve. I think highly of what they have done in many
areas but no, they`re not up there to protect the people from being diddled
by Wells Fargo. That`s not what motivates them.

O`DONNELL: They don`t have contact with consumers.

FRANK: Well, they have a consumer bureau but it`s – look, we asked them
at one hearing when some of them contesting this, we tried to review the
record. There was no evidence that consumer matters have ever been
discussed at a meeting of the Federal Reserve board of governors. This
seemed fairly conclusive.


FRANK: So, we wanted to set up this agency, but we understood that it
would be facing enormous political pressures. And, by the way, we were
following a precedent.

The fact is that the right wing just hates the idea of consumer protection.
They hate it because of what it does, but they exaggerate it. It`s
ideological with them, Lawrence. It`s – these are people to whom the idea
that there could be flaws in capitalism is deeply disturbing.

Dick Durbin, who`s been a great leader on the issue, said they hate it like
the devil hates holy water. That`s a very good analogy.

O`DONNELL: Do they believe in your private conversations with them that
bankers are honorable men?

FRANK: Yes. They want to do well. They are trying. And they also
believe that you`re paid too high a price if you try to stop the mistakes
because good things won`t happen.

But that, by the way – so, all of the bank agencies have this
independence. The control of the currency, the Federal Deposit Insurance
Corporation and the Federal Reserve. None of them are subject to
appropriation and none of them are headed by people who go out of office
when the president changes.

Despite that, the right wing, they have never in all the years I know
complained about the control of the currency which is structured very much
like the consumer bureau. This is cover for their dislike of the consumer

So, then they argue, you know what? Because it`s not subject to
appropriation, it`s out of control. You heard that.

O`DONNELL: Yes. Out of control.

FRANK: What you haven`t heard, I worked hard for this, is a single example
that they give of misbehavior by that agency. They cannot give you a
single horror story. You know. You have been in the business a long time.

When you`re trying to make change, you give examples of why change is
needed. There was not a single example they have given of misbehavior by
the consumer bureau and the reason is that anything they would bring up
about the consumer bureau would be overwhelmingly popular, whether it`s
credit card abuse or overcharging people on the student loans and that`s
what`s here.

You know, I`m thinking about this more and talking about it all day, and
this is the key piece. Yes, it is true that Richard Cordray would be
replaced if he stayed on in April. But people said is this a fight about a
few months?

No. Here`s the deal. Under the statute – we wrote the statute to give it
some independence. We wrote the statute so that it could not be pulled
apart by bank pressures. And it said that if there is a vacancy, there
would be a vacancy after five years when the term expires, the president
fill it at that point but only if he appointed someone who was confirmed by
the Senate. That`s the key.


FRANK: The fact – the fight is whether there should be an acting director
to go on forever without Senate confirmation. And here`s the point. The
Senate Republicans have been willing – confirmed Ben Carson, you would
confirm anybody almost you would think, except the consumer bureau is too
popular. It`s not just that no Democrat would vote to confirm someone
against it. Senator Susan Collins, Republican, voted for the bureau.

I don`t think Senate Republicans want to vote for a Mick Mulvaney type to
destroy the agency. So, that`s what`s at stake here.

O`DONNELL: So, you see this as a play not temporary. You see this as the
Trump administration has no intention of actually trying to get someone
confirmed to this?

FRANK: I think they accept the fact that getting – just thought about
this as I was – as I was talking about this during the day. That`s why
it`s such a ferocious fight.


FRANK: If it is our way, there`s an acting director until the Senate
confirms a replacement. The Trump way is that he can nominate someone who
would be unacceptable and not be confirmed and that would be OK because he
can have the acting director there.

So, this is a fight as to whether or not the president can put a dedicated
opponent, Mulvaney hates the bureau (ph) – by the way, as you know, now
trying to do the budget. They`re trying to – the notion that the budget
director on his lunch hour wants to –



FRANK: It just shows how little they think of it. But the key point was
this. What they are fighting for is the right to have their acting
director not subject to Senate confirmation for the rest of this term
because they – I think, understand that they could not get confirmed the
kind of chairman, the director they want.

O`DONNELL: That makes terrible sense to me. We`re going to have to leave
it there. So, it`s in court and see what the federal court in Washington
says about who really is the director.

Barney Frank, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

FRANK: Thanks.

O`DONNELL: Really appreciate it.

Coming up, Donald Trump is trying to tell some people they did not see what
they did see and they did not hear what they did hear on the “Access
Hollywood” video in which he boasts about his favorite methods of sexual


O`DONNELL: There are only 15 days left in the campaign for special
election for Senate seat in Alabama and so for, of course, the candidates
want to use every one of those precious days. But for the last 11 days,
the Republican Party`s nominee Roy Moore has not said a word in public.
Eleven precious campaign days and the special election campaign spent in
fearful silence now that he`s been accused of molesting a 14-year-old girl
when he was a 32-year-old assistant district attorney, among other things.

But tonight, in Alabama, Roy Moore finally took his campaign public once
again and he sounded like a campaigner in need of a speechwriter. One hint
to Roy Moore: Do not – do not make any reference to taking off any clothes
and I mean any clothes at all including your gloves.


ROY MOORE (R), ALABAMA SENATE CANDIDATE: I`m going to take off some gloves
and show the truth in this campaign.


I`m a fighter. I don`t hesitate to say that. That`s what I did all my
life. I fight not only physically, boxing and karate and full contact, I
fought in political arenas in a different way. Now, I`m having to fight a
spiritual battle.


O`DONNELL: Full contact.

If you`re hoping for a Roy Moore policy speech, tonight was not the night.


MOORE: This is simply dirty politics. And it`s a sign of the immorality -


It`s a sign of the immorality of our time.

They certainly don`t know how to talk about morality. That`s why we`re
having dirtiness in campaigns. To be great again, we got to be good again.
To be good again, we have to talk about something that politicians don`t
talk about and that`s morality, the definition of right and wrong.


O`DONNELL: Actually, a lot of politicians have been talking about the
definition of right and wrong and most of the Republican politicians who
have talked about the Alabama campaign say that Roy Moore is wrong.

And one Republican Senator Jeff Flake has said that he would vote for the
Democratic candidate Doug Jones if he was forced to make that choice.

But now, Alabama has a third option, retired Marine Colonel Lee Busby says
he is launching a write-in campaign. Lee Busby was Vice Chief of staff to
President Trump`s current Chief of Staff, the Former General John Kelly.

Lee Busby says that he is a Trump voter who doesn`t believe that either of
the current candidates are qualified to serve in the Senate. He told
Washington Post, I think you can flip this thing. If this is a military
option, the right and left flank are heavily guarded. I think that gives
you an opportunity to run straight up the middle and Lee Busby said this
about the allegations against Roy Moore.

It has created enough distaste in my mind, he said, as a voter, I don`t
need to get to the bottom of it. Donald Trump is supporting Roy Moore by
Tweeting as many lies as he can think of about Democratic challenger Doug
Jones. a New York Times report says that President Trump sees the calls
for Mr. Moore to step aside as a version of the response to the now famous
Access Hollywood tape of which he boasted about grabbing women`s genetelia
and the flood of groping accusations against him that followed soon after.

He suggested to a Senator earlier this year that it was not authentic and
repeated that claim to an adviser more recently. In the hours after it was
revealed in October 2016, Mr. Trump acknowledged that the voice was his and
he apologized. The only thing Donald Trump has ever apologized for was what
he was caught saying on the Access Hollywood video. And in his apology he
confirmed what we all saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears and
that was Donald Trump talking. He then said that it was locker room banter,
a private conversation that took place many years ago and then he released
a video saying this.


things I regret and the words released today on this more than a decade-old
video are one of them.


O`DONNELL: There he is admitting his words. Access Hollywood actually
addressed the tape on their show tonight saying let us make this perfectly
clear. The tape is very real. Remember his excuse at the time was locker
room talk.

He said every one of those words. Up next, Dan Rather joins us after the
strangest Thanksgiving weekend in Presidential History


O`DONNELL: Here`s candidate Donald Trump apologizing for the Access
Hollywood video which he is now trying to tell some people is fake.


TRUMP: This was locker room talk. I`m not proud of it. I apologized to my
family. I apologized to the American people. Certainly, I`m not proud of
it. But this is locker room talk.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Dan Rather who thought he`d seen everything
until this weekend. He is the former anchor of CBS Evening News. He`s
currently host of the Big Interview and author of the new book What Unites
Us, Reflections on Patriotism. Dan, thank you very much for being here.


O`DONNELL: And this is a space that is – this takes Trumpian pathological
lying to a new place the idea that he`s publicly apologized for these words


O`DONNELL: Several times last year. Now, trying to say it never

RATHER: Well, this is why I keep saying it`s true. This is not normal.
We`re better than this. We as a people are better than this to accept this
at all.

Look, previous Presidents have made big mistakes. Yes, Presidents sometimes
have lied. But none has so relentlessly, consistently lies and I use the
word measured as this President has done and here`s proof positive. But
there`s something within Donald Trump that has convinced him no doubt the
election itself that he can get away with it, that he can say a few months
ago I apologized for it, locker room talk.

And then begin saying, well, you know, maybe they – in essence they
doctored the tape. I was interested that the company which put out tonight
saying the tape is what the tape is. We`ve moved into at least President
Trump is trying to move us into an Orwellian space where truth doesn`t
matter and the opposite of truth is truth. Now for any thinking person,
person who voted for Donald Trump or somebody who cannot stand the
Democratic Party, whatever, and you have to see this clearly that if we
ever move into completely into the post truth political era, an era where
facts don`t matter, what somebody said before doesn`t matter, then we`re in
deeper trouble than we imagine.

But we haven`t reached that point yet. I have such confidence in the
American people, Lawrence, that I think people see through this. Now that
begs the question then, why does roughly a third, better than a third of
the country continue to stick with him? And I don`t have an answer to that

O`DONNELL: Well a lot has to do with when I talked to Trump voters
because I know of Trump voters who would agree with us about the Access
Hollywood video and Trump`s response to it now but would say, look. Neil
Gorsuch is most important the thing the president could have done. And
that`s want - I want that Supreme Court Justice. And so I`ve heard that
kind of defense of him.

I want to go to something he said that I know you`re concerned about, about
the news media this weekend, because takes – he keeps finding new heights
in this kind of thing. He did a tweet on Saturday saying, Fox News much
more important in the United States than CNN. But outside of the U.S. CNN
International is still a major source of fake news. And they represent our
nation to the world very poorly.

The outside world does not see the truth from them. That provoked something
that we have also never seen before. General Michael Haden, former Director
of Cia and the NSA saying, if this is who we are and who we are becoming, I
have wasted 40 years of my life. Until now it was not possible for me to
conceive of an American President capable of such an outrageous assault on
truth, a free press or the first amendment.

RATHER: This is not who we are. It is not who we`re becoming. We are
better than this. It may be hard to see at this moment. But no President
is stronger than the people of the country as a whole. The tone and tenor
of this presidency is – there`s no other word for it, awful.

I think the public`s aching for, even people opposed to President Trump for
his political affiliation and his policy matters would say, we are looking
for a president, we expect a president to be sensitive, to be
knowledgeable, to be caring. You don`t get that. You call this the worst
weekend for any president in the history of the country. And I haven`t
checked all the way back -

O`DONNELL: Worst Thanksgiving weekend.

RATHER: The worst Thanksgiving weekend. I think that`s probably true.

O`DONNELL: When you consider what other Presidents have done, including
visit troops and feed them Thanksgiving dinner, you look at what he`s doing
with these crazy Tweets on that weekend.

RATHER: Well, and this business the Whitehouse today where it was designed
to honor the Navajo people who helped break the code in World War II.


RATHER: It`s supposed to be about them. Instead he takes it all and uses
a child-like and derogatory term to describe a political opponent, Senator
Warren. But I keep coming back Lawrence. We are better than this in.

O`DONNELL: Well the polls indicate that. There`s a vast majority
disapproval for the things we are talking about tonight in the polls.

RATHER: Well, and I think that trend will continue unless he changes and I
am now convinced - I had hope when he first came in that he would make at
least some shift toward being President of all the people. But we are now
almost a year into his presidency, not quite and it`s very obvious he is
not going to change.

O`DONNELL: Can I go back to the use of the word lie because you have been
at this business long enough to know how important that word is in news
communication. I`m thinking to your of your coverage of the Nixon
administration ending in a resignation of by the President on the verge of
impeachment. I was in college I guess for the beginning of that and for the
end of that. And I don`t remember the use of the word lie. I mean, I think
it came out only when proven in under oath testimony of a lie. That`s the
only time I can remember in the New York Times or you referring to
something that the president has said as a lie

RATHER: Even during that time, I don`t recall the word lie being used. I
don`t recall using it. I don`t recall anybody at CBS News using it.


RATHER: And I think it does tell you how the presidency that again the
tone and tenor has gone down to the point now that early on I did say and
without apology we should start calling a lie an outright lie. Even during
the Nixon time it was words like untruth, sophistry was sometimes used.
But the word lie was considered I would say most legitimate news operations
steered away from it.

O`DONNELL: Well, it`s a hard word to prove except in the case of Donald
Trump where it`s easy to prove.

RATHER: I was going to say. A very hard word because you can tell
something is not true but if you believe it to be true it`s not a lie.


RATHER: But with President Trump, but the unrelenting, the consistent
lying, commands a different standard for today.

O`DONNELL: It does. Dan Rather, thank you very much for joining us
tonight. I really appreciate it, really great to have you here. The book is
called What Unites Us in bookstores everywhere. And I know because I`m in
bookstores these days and I see that book everywhere.

Coming up, how Donald Trump ruined a Whitehouse photo-op that was supposed
to honor Native American soldiers and he did it by throwing in as Dan just
said his favorite insult of about Elizabeth Warren.



TRUMP: This is a country where we speak English.


O`DONNELL: Peter McDonald is 90 years old. He joined the marines when he
was 15 years old and saw action in World War II in the pacific. The
Whitehouse staff invited Peter McDonald to the Whitehouse today to tell his
story and the story of the Navajo Code Talkers of World War II. It would
have been a wonderful moment at the white house if Donald Trump didn`t show
up and ruin it and completely drown out what could have been the coverage
of Peter Mcdonald`s message.


PETER MCDONALD, NAVAJO CODE TALKER: In the early part of World War II,
the enemy was breaking every military code that was being used in the
pacific. This created a huge problem for strategizing against the enemy.
Eventually a suggestion was made in early 1942, February `42 essentially,
to use Navajo language as a code. Marine Corps recruited 29 young Navajos.
Not telling them what they are being recruited for because this was a top
secret operation. They were just asked, do you want to join the marines?
You want to fight the enemy? Come join the marines. So they volunteered.


O`DONNELL: Peter McDonald was one of the Navajo Marines. With him at the
Whitehouse is Fleming Begaye, the oldest veteran of World War II. He was
wounded in the battle – in battle in the pacific and spent a year in a
Naval Hospital, also at the Whitehouse, Thomas Begaye who was in the battle
of Iwo Jima. He reenlisted in the army during the Korean War and saw
combat there. They were the three members of the Navajo Code Talkers who
were at the Whitehouse today. Peter McDonald told the story of the first
battle that used Navajo Code Talkers for radio communication during combat.


MCDONALD: First marine division hit the beach on – beaches of Guadalcanal
with 15 Navajo Code Talkers. This was the first battle where the Navajo
Code was to be tested in actual battle. To test, see how our memory would
be under heavy enemy fire. Well, three weeks after the landing, General
Vandegrift, Commander of the First Marine Division send word back to United
States saying this Navajo Code is terrific. The enemy never understood it.
He said we don`t understand it either but it works. Send us some more


O`DONNELL: All of that got lost in the media`s coverage of the Trump
moment that happened after Peter McDonald finished speaking.


TRUMP: You were here long before any of us we`re here. Although we have a
representative in Congress who they say was here a long time ago. They
call her Pocahontas.


O`DONNELL: they do not call her that. Only you call her that. That was
Donald Trump`s sleazy, cowardly way of not taking ownership of his own
hateful poison.

We know that`s the name that Donald Trump alone uses for the Senior Senator
from Massachusetts Elizabeth Warren who is from Oklahoma and says she has a
small fraction of her ancestry that is Native American. And we know that
is the female Native American name that Donald Trump has ever heard. And I
heard because we know Donald Trump has never read anything about
Pocahontas, has never read anything about her actual place in our history
in virginia.

We know Donald Trump intends to use that word as an insult. This was
Elizabeth Warren`s reaction tonight on MSNBC.


ELIZABETH WARREN, UNITED STATES SENATOR: All the President had to do was
make it through this ceremony and honor these wonderful people. And
instead, what did he do? He had to slow out a racial slur.


O`DONNELL: Donald Trump did not say one sincere word at what for him was
the Navajo Code Talkers Photo Opt. It should have been moment for Donald
Trump to reconsider statements like this.


TRUMP: This is a country where we speak English.


O`DONNELL: Does Donald Trump think that Navajo is a foreign language?
It`s not English and it`s not foreign. It was here before English. It was
here when every one who spoke English thought that the world was flat.

Along with the savagery and genocide that the United States inflicted on
the tribes, the government also tried to extinguish tribal culture, tribal
religion and tribal languages. In some areas use of tribal languages was
illegal. But because the spirit of the tribes could not be extinguished
the language survived and the Navajo language was used to save the lives of
American soldiers in World War II serving in the very same army that spent
most of it`s time prior to World War I trying to wipe out the tribes.

Think of the transcendent nobility and graciousness it would take for
Navajo teen-age boys to join the marines during World War II to save
American soldiers` lives in battle. Peter McDonald said something today in
the Whitehouse that we know the President would never say. It was unlike
anything that Donald Trump, the President supported by white supremacists,
the ant anti-diversity president could ever think or say.


MCDONALD: America we know is composed of diverse community. We have
different languages, different skills, different talents and different
religion. But when our way of life is threatened, like the freedom and
liberties that we all cherish, we come together as one. And had we come
together as one, we are invincible




DAVID LETTERMAN, TELEVISION HOST: And here I am tonight receiving this
award and I ask myself how did this happen? And I`ll tell you how it
happened. It wasn`t because of me. it was because of hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds and perhaps thousands of people who helped me.


O`DONNELL: That was a bit of David Letterman`s acceptance speech for the
Mark Twain Prize for American Humor at the Kennedy Center which I saw on
PBS this weekend. And it is the perfect introduction to Giving Tuesday.
Giving Tuesday is the day when we instead of shopping for Christmas gift or
deals for ourselves, we take a pause in all of that for a day and consider
giving to a good cause.

MSNBC is the signature media partner for Giving Tuesday for the 4th year in
a row. And we here at the Last Word had found a way to combine your
holiday shopping with your charitable giving on Giving Tuesday or any other
day. Faithful viewers of this program know that I`m talking about the KIND
Fund, Kids in Need of Desk, the partnership I created with UNICEF to
deliver desks to schools in Malawi where the kids have never seen desks.

You can go to and give a desk in the name of any
one in your holiday gift list. And UNICEF will send that person a
notification of the gift that you have given in their name. You can choose
to contribute any amount toward the purchase of a desk or tuition for girls
to attend high school in Malawi where like most African countries public
elementary school is free. But high school is not free.

And most families cannot to afford the tuition for a single child. When a
family can afford to pay for high school tuition they are more likely to
send a son to high school than a daughter. The high school graduation rate
for boy in Malawi has double the graduation rate for girls.

So I got to spend about half hour tomorrow morning when I wake up on the
laptop giving desks and tuition in the names of people on my gift list.
And maybe when I think of other names when I`m doing it it`ll end up being
an hour. And David Letterman has already told you exactly what that will
feel like.


LETTERMAN: I would just like to say we have to help each other or nothing
will happen. And if you help someone in any way, big or small,
automatically you will feel good about yourself.


O`DONNELL: David Letterman gets tonight`s Last Word. The 11th hour with
Brian Williams starts now.


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