Russian ambassador TRANSCRIPT: 5/22/20, The Rachel Maddow Show
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST, “ALL IN”: That is “ALL IN” for this evening.
THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW starts right now.
Good evening, Rachel.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Thank you, my friend. Have
an excellent weekend. Much appreciated.
HAYES: You too.
MADDOW: And thanks to you at home for joining us this hour as well.
Actually, thanks to you at home for joining us this hour and a half
tonight. You know what? Nothing is the same. Time has no meaning. All days
of the week are just days that end in “y” now. I haven`t tied my shoes in
So why not spread THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW out into 90 minutes instead of an
hour on a Friday night? Who are you going to complain to? The boss?
I mean, the boss at this point is just like any of us. The boss is just
another, you know, inch and a half tall head in a tiny Zoom box that
sometimes cuts out in the middle of the meeting, especially when he`s
talking. I mean, it`s anarchy at this point.
So, thanks for being here tonight for this hour and a half. Let`s do this
All right. We start tonight in beautiful Wright County, Minnesota. W-R-I-G-
H-T. Wright County. It`s sort of on the way between Minneapolis and St.
Cloud. Beautiful part of the country. Beautiful part of the state.
You know they call Minnesota the Land of 10,000 Lakes. Wright County is one
of the places that makes that make sense. The towns in Wright County are
like Smith Lake and Howard Lake, and French Lake, and Maple Lake.
And in between, Maple Lake, Minnesota, and the next town over, which is
called Annandale, there are two Catholic churches between those two towns,
Saint Ignatius and Saint Timothy`s. These are two pretty small towns.
They`re less than ten miles apart.
There`s 2,000 or 3,000 people in both Maple Lake and in Annandale. And
while that, you know, five or ten miles between Saint Ignatius and Saint
Timothy`s is enough distance to justify having two separate Catholic
churches for those two towns, it`s apparently not enough to justify having
two different sets of clergy serving those two churches.
So between Annandale and Maple Lake, Minnesota, between Saint Ignatius and
Saint Timothy`s, the same three priests oversee the services for both
churches in both towns. They split themselves between the two churches.
There`s Father Meyer, Father Andrew, and Monsignor Callahan. And between
the three of them, they take care of services at both those churches and
both of those towns.
Now, you might have seen some of the national headlines this week that were
generated by the Catholic bishops in Minnesota. Kind of pounded their
chests this week and proclaimed that they would defy the state public
health orders in Minnesota. They declared that Catholic churches in
Minnesota would break the state rules, designed to limit the spread of
coronavirus, the bishops declared that Catholic churches in Minnesota will
open up and celebrate mass in person with their congregations this weekend,
regardless of what Minnesota public health officials and the Minnesota
governor have said is necessary to deal with the epidemic there.
So you might have seen these headlines, whether or not you live in
Minnesota, because the bishops got national attention, for their letter
announcing that they would defy the law.
Quote: How can reason require us any longer to keep our faithful from
coming to mass, to receive communion, to receive the Eucharist?
That`s what is happening broadly in Minnesota. But in Maple Lake,
Minnesota, and nearby Annandale, Minnesota, in little Wright County, at
Saint Ignatius and Saint Timothy`s churches, that battle cry from the
bishops statewide is landing sort of awkwardly in those communities.
Here`s the letter from Father Meyer to his congregation at Saint Timothy`s
this week. Quote: I`m sharing this in light of masses in the days ahead.
While you may have read that the archbishop has allowed for churches to
open and have public masses again, we will need to see how things transpire
for the clergy here at Saint Timothy`s and Saint Ignatius before
proceeding. I know you are all understandably eager to have the sacraments
again as soon as possible. I am eager to celebrate mass with all of you.
Obviously, however, we do not want to spread the virus, and want to make
sure that the clergy have either tested negative, or overcome the symptoms
of the virus for a number of days before celebrating mass with you.
Quote, yesterday, afternoon, we learned that some parishioners of Saint
Ignatius, with whom Father Andrew and I have been in contact tested
positive for the COVID-19 virus. Father Andrew has just now tested positive
Monsignor Callahan and I have recently developed symptoms and are awaiting
our own test results. The parishioners of Saint Ignatius should also be
aware that at least one of the volunteers who helped with the distribution
of flowers for Mother`s Day has been feeling unwell and was exposed to
others with the virus. I wanted to share this so that you are aware and
could be especially attentive to any symptoms that might develop if you
have recently interacted with even the clergy.
I wanted to share this now so you are aware that why we may not come back
to public masses as soon as other churches. With all three clergy
potentially infected, it may be nearly impossible it do in the near future.
With all three churches, clergy down with the virus, we may not be able to
open up in defiance of the health orders as the bishops are saying across
the state. That`s happening in Wright County, Minnesota.
This is Texas. This is the Holy Ghost Catholic church in Bellaire, Texas,
which is part of the sprawling Houston metropolitan area. At Holy Ghost,
they reopened and started doing mass for their parishioners again at the
beginning of this month because Texas`s Republican Governor Greg Abbott
told churches across the state of Texas that it was fine and they needed to
Well, last week, one of the priests from Holy Ghost died. Five of the other
priests at the religious order where he lived have also now tested
positive. The archdiocese in Houston has now sent out a warning to
everybody in the Parish, quote, if you have attended masses in person at
Holy Ghost church since the reopening on May 2nd, you are strongly
encouraged to monitor your health for any symptoms and be tested for COVID-
19. This is according to the archdiocese. Not your typical archdiocese
But again, the governor of Texas told all of the churches in the state to
reopen. And they did. But now, with one priest dead, five others down from
the virus, Holy Ghost has reclosed its doors. Despite Governor Abbott`s
order that they ought to reopen.
And you know, this is not a new phenomenon in this American epidemic. It
has been this way from the very beginning. Contact tracing has told us so.
A woman named Viola Horton attended a rural church service at a Baptist
congregation in rural Marion County, West Virginia, back on March 15th. Her
sister was the reverend at the church and celebrating her anniversary as
the leader of that church. That gathering at that one church in West
Virginia, that one day, is estimated to have infected 30 percent of the
people who were in attendance. Five people who attended that church
celebration that one day were hospitalized by the end of the first week
after that service. Ms. Viola Horton was dead within two weeks of that
service, and she was the first person in West Virginia who is known to have
died from coronavirus.
Last month in Kentucky, health officials traced more than 30 coronavirus
cases and three deaths, and community spread of the disease across multiple
counties, including into a Kentucky meatpacking plant, they traced all of
those cases back to a single church revival meeting, in Hopkins County,
In California, right now, a single church service on Mother`s Day is being
blamed for new clusters of the virus in Lake County and Mendocino County,
California. In Butte County, California, right now, they are trying to
track down 180 people who attended a congregate church service in person in
defiance of the public health order in that states, that prohibited such
Public health officials are trying to find everybody who went to that
church service, because they learned that at least one person at that
service tested positive the day after that service, and so they`re now
trying to contact trace the whole congregation, because at that event, it
seems like they were all exposed.
Last month, one of the first CDC formal reports, first report tracing a
large cluster of cases in Chicago, identified one church service on one
day, as one of the places where documented new infections took place. The
new one that came out from CDC this week traces another cluster to a church
in rural Arkansas, where the pastor and his wife did not know that they
were infected but they were, and over the course of one week, they infected
38 percent of their congregation, and so far, three people have died.
I was also surprised to learn this today about what now counts as the worst
outbreak in the country, the outbreak at the Navajo Nation, which spans
parts of three different states, a little bit of Utah, also New Mexico, and
Arizona. “The Arizona Republic” did great work today teasing out of the
data geographically specific information about that outbreak on the Navajo
Nation to try to figure out how bad it is there, but how bad it is compared
with other parts of the country.
And what “The Arizona Republic” was able to find is that in the northern,
particularly isolated part, of the Navajo Nation, the number of cases per
population in specific regions there is higher than even in the worst-hit
zip codes in New York City. And Navajo health officials also say that that
worst-hit region within Navajo Nation is where they think the Navajo Nation
outbreak began, and they have traced the beginning of the Navajo Nation
outbreak, which again is the worst one in the country, they have traced it
back to a specific church revival meeting, on a specific day, in early
march, in the Navajo Nation. That`s where they believe it took hold. And
now again, that is the worst outbreak in America, worst per capita, than
the hardest-hit zip codes in New York City.
So when the president today pounded his chest a little bit and announced
that he will insist, as president, that all church services be held in
person, this weekend, all over the country, and he will somehow magically
override any state rule, that would seek to prohibit that kind of a
gathering, I mean the president, you know, knows what he`s playing with in
doing that. This has been an out-loud documented up front part of our
experience in this epidemic from the very beginning.
And no, the president does not have the power to overrule state public
health rules and demand that all churches hold in person services but him
trying to create the impression that he has that power will have some of
that effect anyway. And so, you know, we will see what the president has
wrought for this weekend in America, in the middle of the worst epidemic on
And then in, what, three weeks or so, in some places, if we`re lucky, we
will be able to do the contact tracing for what happens this weekend. And
once they`ve done the contact tracing, presumably we will be able to give
him all the credit he deserves for what will happen this weekend because we
know what will happen at church services held in the open in congregate
this weekend, we know what will happen because we`re already living through
it at a smaller scale from earlier on in this epidemic in America, when the
total number of cases in the community was smaller than it is right now.
We already know what church services have done, in terms of creating what
turn into large clusters. In one case, which turns, into what is now the
largest outbreak in the country, the worst outbreak in the country. I
mentioned New York as a point of comparison for the Navajo Nation. I should
tell you this – this to me is still the big picture tail of where we are
at as a country. It`s one very simple graph. That we`ve been updating day
by day and it shows cases of coronavirus over time.
New York is the blue line there. You can see how they have squashed their
curve down and gone flat in terms of adding new cases in New York. The
other line is the rest of the country, minus New York. So, really, it`s New
York that is coming down. The rest of the country just keeps going up, up,
up, ain`t no stopping us now.
You keep hearing this news about how the United States is really, is
flattening out in terms of our new cases, in terms of the shape of our
epidemic. The shape of the epidemic in this country is not flattening out.
New York is doing better, and the rest of the country is, and that has
consequences, as we head into this fine Memorial Day weekend and the states
are opening up with abandon.
The great state of Arkansas just logged its largest daily increase in cases
yet. Since the beginning of the epidemic, they`ve never had a larger daily
increase in cases, than they have just had. In the same breath that he
announced that, the governor of Arkansas, Asa Hutchison, also announced
that, you know, in addition to having more new cases today than any other
day thus far, we`re also announcing that sports events are back on.
Congregate sports events. Play ball.
In Florida, nice beach weather coming this weekend. Yesterday, Florida
announced its highest daily case numbers since mid-April. So, you know,
open everything up.
There`s going to be a 70-team youth baseball tournament held in Brevard
County in Florida this weekend, 70 teams. They`re expecting 1,500 people
all together, for that baseball tournament this weekend. Just had their
largest case numbers in more than a month.
In Alabama, their numbers have been rising all month long in terms of new
daily cases. Last night we had the mayor of Montgomery, Alabama, here on
the show. Montgomery, of course, is Alabama`s capital city. The mayor was
here, because he is raising the alarm that his city`s hospital capacity in
Alabama is in his words maxed out.
As of today, ICU beds in Montgomery, Alabama, are at 97 percent occupancy,
heading into the holiday weekend. And the case numbers in Montgomery just
continue to rise. The governor of Alabama actually took questions on the
situation in Montgomery today and then in the same breath announced a
further loosening of the rules statewide. The rules designed to keep people
from further spreading the virus in that state.
Good luck, Montgomery hospitals. Good luck, doctors and nurses. Good luck.
Let`s see what you can do with what you`ve got.
It is not just a phenomenon in the South. In Omaha, Nebraska, today, the
medical director at one medical center, announced they are at 80 percent
capacity now and seeing steady growth upwards, which is the lead in the
“Omaha World Herald”, quote, hospitalizations in the Omaha metro area are
in a worrisome upward climb. And just a little further down in the same
article, quote, Nebraska Governor Pete Ricketts says he feels comfortable
loosening restrictions in the state.
The director of that medical center was actually at a coronavirus town hall
event with the governor last night. It was like they were broadcasting from
two different planets. He is saying, I feel great. Everything seems good.
Let`s loosen up.
And she`s saying, I run this medical center in the largest city in the
state and we are filling up, steadily and it is very worrying. She said
last night, quote, I`ll tell you, now is the time to be wearing a mask.
Did you see this week, these haven`t been circulated widely, I think they
should be, they are amazing, did you see the wear a mask PSAs that New York
state showed off this week? They`re not official. As I understand it, New
York asked people to submit their own public service announcements about
why you should wear a mask and what they circulated this week which is what
I believe are the finalists, the best one, according to the state, and
they`re really good. They`re also really, really, really New York.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEW YORK PSA: I love New York. We love New York. We`re stuck inside our
homes. Every day heroes have been working overtime. New York, to reopen.
And stay open. We all need to do our part. And show that we care.
Look, man. I wear a mask to protect you. We wear a mask to protect me.
Let`s all wear a mask. To stop the spread of coronavirus. And save lives.
When we show up in a mask, we`re showing up for each other. Show your love
for New York. As New York loves you.
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: The test book says politicians lead. No.
Sometimes the people lead. And the politicians follow.
Follow the American people. They will do the right thing. There`s still a
right thing. Maybe right thing is a New York expression.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: #NewYorkTough. They`re really good, right? Aren`t they good?
But they are also the most New York thing in the world. I mean sometimes in
New York, you feel like there`s America, and there`s New York. Other times
you feel like New York is kind of the capital of America, the nongovernment
capital of America. And then you see stuff like this and you think that`s
very New York specific.
The reason you`ve got masks like that, that is so New York specific, is
because New York is taking the mask thing really seriously. Even as New
York`s curve is coming down, and the rest of the country is going up, New
York is taking additional mitigation measures very seriously.
Meanwhile, in the rest of the country, where things are heading that the
Memorial Day weekend, all of these states are opening back up. All of these
states on this list here have no recommendation or requirement for people
to wear masks, when they are out and about. We think at least three of
these states have no recommendation or requirement for anybody to wear
masks either as a resident, or at any place of business.
I mean, the CDC actually does have an overt recommendation for the whole
country that people wear masks. But there`s no national effort to promote
it, like New York City, and New York, are trying to develop their own New
York-specific promotions of this idea. They`re doing it because nobody else
is. There`s no national effort.
There`s a national recommendation, no national effort to promote it, lots
of state where they`re not even requiring it or recommending it, the
president and the vice president undermine the mask recommendation
personally whenever they can.
You know, at the start of this epidemic, the CDC used to give their own
briefings about what the American people should know and should do to
protect themselves. The kinds of briefings where you might expect them to
underscore the need to make, the need to wear a mask.
The CDC doesn`t do those briefings anymore. They haven`t done them since
early March. The “Washington Post” editorial page making a good case this
week that just that one change, having the CDC return to briefing the
American people directly, would be a big leap forward toward us starting to
rationally deal with this crisis.
But we don`t have that, instead we still have these White House circuses.
Today, Dr. Deborah Birx stood up in front of a graph, apparently designed
to make it look like things were getting much better, a nice downward
sloping graph always soothes the eyes in the grips of an epidemic.
What it was that she was showing is just a graph showing the amount of
testing being done in each state and they stacked the drafts and the ones
doing the most testing are on the left side and the states doing the least
testing will be on the right side of the graph, so it will give you that
soothing feeling, to see bars in the bar chart declining left to right,
from a lot to nothing. It looks like it`s declining overtime, but it`s not
declining overtime at all. It`s just set up to look that way, at a glance,
That`s misleading. That`s just the states organized by which states are
doing less testing and that`s not testing getting better or states getting
better at a time. Really? At a glance, it feels awesome, though. Look how
small it is, over there on the right, by Oregon.
The president`s, you know, boosting of that malaria drug saying he`s taking
it, all the doctors are taking it, all of the frontline health providers
are taking it. They`re not taking it. The president is saying it is a
preventive to keep you from getting coronavirus. It`s not a preventive to
keep you from getting coronavirus.
That moved on from absurd and sort of insane to a potentially deadly threat
today when “The Lancet” published the results of a new study of nearly
100,000 coronavirus patients on multiple continents. Those who were given
the drug the president has been huckstering for suffered a significantly
higher risk of death compared with patients who did not take that drug.
I mean, we`re still here. We`re still at the bottom of the morass with the
government getting worse and not better over time. And so, for us
civilians, for us citizens, knowing this is our time on earth and we`ll
have to answer for our behavior too and what we tried to do for our
country, how do – how can we get good public health understanding among
American citizens? How can we get good public health understanding, good
buy-in to necessary public health behaviors to keep ourselves safe?
How do we get people to both understand and embrace self-protective
behavior? How do we empower Americans to make smart, real, science-based
decisions that will protect themselves and their families? How can we do
that when instead of credible public health authorities to tell us what`s
what, we just have this terrible government that lies to us constantly
about this stuff, and in the person of the president, that gives us, you
know, made-up, on the spot advice that might literally kill you? How do we
get any better at this when this is the government that we`ve got?
Well, we do what we can. We make our own PSAs about wearing masks and send
them in to the state government in New York and see if they`re going to use
them as an official state PSA.
I came across another really cool thing this week in Arizona. A group of
Arizona medical students designed – look at how cool this is – designed
these excellent and effective and beautiful COVID information posters in
The state of Arizona was doing some posters in Spanish that proved to be
way too ignorable to be much good, and so a group of medical students in
Arizona designed really cooler ones that are way more resonant. Look.
Aren`t these awesome?
You might remember a couple months ago we interviewed a young medical
student who had made the decision to graduate early and upend all her plans
for the start of her medical career so she could instead go work on the
front lines at the height of the epidemic at Bellevue public hospital in
New York City.
That young daughter just finished her tour there at Bellevue. We`re going
to talk to her about how that went tonight on this show. I mean, we have a
terrible government right now, I am very sorry to say.
It is a terrible time to have a terrible government, but that does not mean
we`re not a great country. Our country is more than just our government,
and you are seeing innovation and dedication among people to do the best
and to try to innovate our way out of this even though we have to do so
around a government that is mostly just making it worse.
We are honestly having to make it up without help a lot of the way, and
that`s kind of a theme right now in the news as we head into this Memorial
Day weekend with the president pledging that everything must be ripped open
regardless of how poorly things are going in places that ought to be
So, we`ve got a bunch ahead tonight, a bunch of good guests, a bunch of
stories you haven`t heard anywhere else about where this thing is worst and
where Americans are doing the most themselves to make it better.
We`ve got a big night tonight. Stay with us.
MADDOW: So, this is unsettling. This is not the way it is supposed to go.
On April 11th, safety regulators inside the Iowa state government got a
complaint saying that workers at a Tyson meatpacking plant in Perry, Iowa,
were being exposed to the risk of infection because of crowded working
conditions inside that plant. The complaint said that employees were
working elbow to elbow, that social distancing was not happening at all in
the production areas inside that plant.
And at the time that complaint was filed with the state, meat processing
plants around the country were reporting outbreaks and a bunch of plants
were getting closed down. Just days before the complaint, another Tyson
plant also in the state of Iowa also had been forced to shut down after
hundreds of workers there got infected.
But despite all that going on at the time, despite the known risks and the
known dangers, despite that detailed complaints about what was happening
inside that one plant in Perry, Iowa, these safety regulators in the Iowa
state government, they did nothing.
“The Associated Press” obtained records about the way they handled that
complaint. What those records revealed is that it took the state nine days
to even ask the plant for a response to those allegations in the complaint,
to even ask the plant what was going on in terms of the situation in Perry.
The state regulators never visited the plant for an inspection at all.
Instead after waiting nine days and asking Tyson for a response, they said
that Tyson`s response, was, quote, satisfactory. More than two weeks after
that, state regulators closed the case without taking any action. Again,
they never even bothered to pop by and take a look.
And that might have been the end of the story were it not for the fact that
one week later, 730 of the workers at that plant in Perry, Iowa, tested
positive for coronavirus, 58 percent of its workforce. State regulators had
been notified weeks earlier about what was going on there. They said, we`re
sure it`s fine. We`re not even going to go by. Close the complaint.
“Des Moines Register” reports this week that a similar complaint was filed
against the JBS meat processing plant in Marshalltown, Iowa, and it`s
unclear whether regulators ever did anything about that complaint either.
But at that JBS plant in Marshalltown, Iowa, at least dozens of employees
there have also now reportedly tested positive for coronavirus as well, not
that you`d know from talking to the plant or talking to the state of Iowa,
which is trying to keep this information as closely held as possible. The
state has been of no help even as hundreds, thousands of meat processing
workers in the state have been infected on the job.
And so, we`ve been covering this for a while, right? It`s clear that the
problem in meat processing plants isn`t going away. The president ordering
them all to be open didn`t turn out to be a panacea for keeping people from
getting infected there. But beyond the situation in meat processing plants,
we are now seeing more and more all over the country that other congregate
work environments, other places where people work together for hours on
end, particularly in manufacturing or some processing plants, those places
are also now starting to see large outbreaks in workplaces of all different
This seems to me like the next phase. You look at local news around the
country, and you see these reports everywhere. You start to aggregate them,
and you realize this is more than just a blip here and there. This appears
to be sort of the next wave of the way people are getting – the way
Americans are getting infected when they go to work.
With more and more states opening up workplaces, this is what we`re
starting to see more and more. Today, the Denver Department of Public
Health ordered the closure of a U.S. Postal Service facility.
And it`s not just any postal service facility. It`s not like a local post
office. This is a sorting facility that handles all of the mail for the
entire state of Colorado and the entire state of wyoming. The Denver Public
Health Department ordered that facility shut down after workers at that
facility tested positive for coronavirus and inspectors couldn`t get in to
see what works conditions were like.
That USPS shutdown in Colorado, which could have very large consequences,
that comes just one day after we learned of an outbreak at a UPS facility
in Tucson, Arizona. Union officials say at least 36 workers at that UPS
facility have tested positive and three of them are sick enough to have
been admitted to intensive care units. There have been lots of cases at
Amazon warehouse facilities across the country. Already eight employees all
working at different Amazon warehouses across the country have died from
In Georgia, we`ve been keeping our eyes on a major outbreak at a nuclear
power plant of all places. More than 230 workers have been infected at a
nuclear power plant. Officials in North Dakota have been grappling with a
surge in cases at a wind turbine plant, nothing about wind turbines
specifically that puts you more at risk for getting the virus. But if you
work in a manufacturing environment, that`s elbow to elbow where you`re
closely confined with other works day after day, that`s just as good as
anywhere. More than 140 employees of that wind turbine plant have been
A beauty supply factory outside of Chicago was recently forced to shut down
after one of its workers died from coronavirus. There have been more than
100 cases reported at a Rhode Island facility that packages salads. Halfway
across the country in Colorado, there was a cheese processing plant that
was first to shut down after a large outbreak there.
I mean, you`re seeing this in state after state in all different kinds of
processing and manufacturing facilities, any place where people are working
in congregate. A mushroom plant in Tennessee. A crawfish farm in Louisiana.
Any of a dozen or so seasonal farms across southern New Jersey. And it is
reaching a boiling point for Americans who work in these environments.
For the past few weeks, hundreds of fruit packing workers in Yakima Valley,
Washington, have gone on strike demanding higher wages but also safer work
conditions in terms of exposure to the virus. More than 350 agricultural
workers in that area have already become infected with the virus. Yakima
And we`re seeing stories like this all across the country day after day
after day. We`ve started to realize as a country there`s a problem in meat
processing plants. But now with the country beginning to reopen, workplaces
beginning to reopen, we`ve got to get our heads around the fact we`re
seeing outbreaks in all sorts of facilities where workers work, travel, or
live together in congregate.
How do we begin to deal with this problem and learn to keep ourselves safe?
Joining us now is Jessica Martinez. She`s co-executive director for
National Council for Occupational Safety and Health.
Ms. Martinez, it`s a real pleasure to have you with us tonight. Thanks for
JESSICA MARTINEZ, NATIONAL COUNCIL FOR OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH, CO-
DIRECTOR: Thank you so much, Rachel, for having me. I appreciate the time.
MADDOW: Let me ask you first in terms of the way I have explained this so
far, if that comports with your understanding, if you and your organization
are looking at this through a different lens or if I`ve gotten anything
MARTINEZ: Yeah, so I`m here representing National COSH. We`re a federation
of local COSH advocating, promoting health and safety working conditions.
We`re getting calls every day from workers who are scared to death of going
to work. They`re scared for good reasons.
Essential workers are dying all over the U.S., and that doesn`t limit
itself to meat processing workers, but health care, postal workers, farm
workers, transit, grocery workers. We`ve documented hundreds of deaths on
our website and that is representative of a fraction.
This isn`t just a problem for essential workers. Infectious disease doesn`t
stay contained in the workplace. We know as soon as that worker steps out
potentially infected, it is impacting communities, neighborhoods, public
spaces. So this is an issue for all of us to take into our hands and take
As a result, our organization released a just return to work report after
receiving tons of calls from workers, efforts to organize. We know that
now, workers are feeling more empowered to make demands, taking matters out
of their hands. We`ve seen 200-plus walkouts, sick leaves, big companies
like an Amazon, Instacart.
Just last week, we know that Ford workers in Michigan walked out as soon as
they found out a worker tested positive for COVID-19.
So with that said, we know that workers have the power to be able to make
these demands both to the employer, government agencies. We know the
federal agencies at this moment, OSH in particular, the Occupational Safety
and Health Administration, who has responsibility to ensure health and
safety working conditions for all workers across the country, has minimized
their enforcement. COVID-19 has killed more workers in this short period of
this pandemic, yet not one citation has been given to an employer because
of COVID-19. That is a huge problem.
Now is the time to have more enforcement for government agencies. Former
chief of OSHA, Mr. David Michaels, had assured us that OSHA has the teeth
to be able to have the authority to put emergency standards in place. We`re
seeing less of this.
CDC guidelines are too weak. We`re more and more seeing voluntary programs
as the states are starting to reopen. Voluntary programs are not the
language we need to hear. Right now, it`s mandatory programs as we`re
seeing more and more workers are impacted.
MADDOW: Let me just underscore and make sure I understood something you
just said. In terms of the federal – there is a part of the federal
government that is responsible for making sure that people work in a safe
environment, OSHA, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration.
Out of all the people who have been infected on the job and all of the
people who have been infected on the job who have died, OSHA has yet to
issue a single citation to any workplace in the entire country for –
MARTINEZ: That`s right.
MADDOW: – for COVID-19 safety issues?
MARTINEZ: That`s right. That`s right.
MADDOW: That`s absolutely astonishing.
MARTINEZ: It is astonishing.
And again, you know, it`s a problem with enforcement. We know that
particularly this pandemic has long-standing inequities in our country.
We`re all focused on it now, but for far too long, we know that the low pay
and dangerous conditions faced by millions of workers has particularly
impacted black and brown communities.
Black and brown communities have the highest mortality rates around COVID-
19. We know that Latino workers make up 18 percent of the working
population, and 35 percent of slaughterhouse workers are Latinos. African-
Americans make 12 percent, but 34 percent of those are correctional
These are essential workers. These are the folks that are having to go to
work on a daily basis to protect their livelihood. We are putting a gun at
these workers essentially.
If they stay home, they`re not making enough of a living wage. They can`t
provide for their families, pay rent. If they go home, they`re not enough
protections and we`re not ensuring the safety protocols to ensure that they
do not get infected.
It`s really, really amplified a probably that we`ve had across this country
in terms of inequities. There`s no law that says black and brown workers
have to get the most dangerous job. That`s discrimination pure and simple,
and it has to change.
MADDOW: Jessica Martinez, co-executive director for the National Council of
Occupational Safety and Health, thanks for your time this evening. What
you`re talking about in terms of there been 200 walkouts around the country
and workers all over the place standing up for themselves to try to get
safer standards, that`s something we`re interested in covering in an
ongoing way. So, please stay it touch with us. It`s good to have you here.
MARTINEZ: Thank you. Thank you, Rachel.
MADDOW: All right. We`ve got much more to get to tonight.
Stay with us.
MADDOW: On this theme in the news right now how Americans are trying to fix
stuff ourselves despite a government that is more a part of this problem
than it is even anywhere near the solution, look at this. This was
In a whole bunch of places across New York state where nurses and frontline
nursing home workers stood outside their workplaces to protest the lack of
protective gear to keep themselves safe and to protest short staffing at
nursing homes. Signs like, you know, we are essential. We are essential
too. Get me PPE.
Nursing home workers basically saying, hey, we are just as much on the
front lines here in terms of working with coronavirus patients as other
health workers are, and we need some help.
This holiday weekend, there`s going to be candlelight vigils outside hard-
hit nursing homes to honor lives lost to coronavirus, to demand more
support to help the staff and the residents at nursing homes who even now,
even still it is no better. They are still the Americans most at risk of
getting this thing and most at risk of dying from it. There will be vigils
around the country outside nursing homes to show support.
Nearly one-third of all coronavirus deaths in the United States are from
nursing homes. In more than a dozen states, a majority of deaths are in
But this week, we got an important new study that I think if it is widely
read and widely understood, importantly, it could help stop some of these
security theater dumb stuff that`s being done for nursing homes despite the
fact that it actually isn`t working to make these places any more safe. And
if we could stop doing some of that stuff, wasting time and resources on
it, and start instead focusing on what would actually work, maybe we`d get
more efficient in terms of trying to minimize the harm in the worst part of
the epidemic that is just persisting week after week and now month after
The good news about this new data is that the idea of what you need to do
is sort of refreshing and simpler than you`d think. If we could start doing
that and not the dumb stuff, maybe we`d make some progress on this hardest
part of our response. But we`ve got one of the authors of that study
joining us next. You`re going to want to see this.
MADDOW: Researchers at the University of Washington published a new study
this week in the Journal of the American Medical Association, which finally
put in cold (AUDIO GAP) just screening people for symptoms, isn`t a real
strategy for trying to keep a place free of coronavirus.
Just looking for people who have a fever or who are otherwise feeling sick
is not enough to stop an outbreak at, say, an assisted living facility.
On the one hand, you know, yeah, duh, we all know already that people
without symptoms can have it and can be infectious. So just screening for
symptoms is going to allow through a lot of people who are going to pose a
problem when they get on the other side of your ineffectual symptom
But despite the fact I think we all know that now, the number of places
including risky workplaces like big processing plants and really risky
environments like nursing homes and assisted living facilities, they have
been doing symptom screening instead of testing, which in technical terms
is called dumb.
In this study in JAMA, they found that broad testing, testing everyone
combined with strict hygiene and social distancing measures, is successful
at preventing an outbreak where coronavirus has already been found, even in
these risky health environments like in long-term care facilities. I mean,
this is a hopeful sign, and again it`s in plain black and white. Does it
mean that we could be inside some kind of strategy that could be reproduced
all over the country to finally start making practical progress toward
protecting Americans in these settings where more Americans have been
getting this thing and more Americans have been dying than in any other
Joining us now is Dr. Alison Roxby, assistant professor of medicine and
global health at University of Washington. She`s one of the authors of this
Dr. Roxby, I apologize for having put in such colloquial terms one of the
bottom lines of the findings of you and your colleagues. I hope I did not
DR. ALISON ROXBY, UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON PROFESSOR OF ALLERGY, INFECTIOUS
DISEASE: Thank you. No, those were our results.
MADDOW: OK. I know you didn`t use the word “dumb.” Go ahead.
ROXBY: This is a classic outbreak investigation. He went into a local
facility after two residents were hospitalized at one of our hospitals to
try and determine whether we would be seeing other cases. And frankly at
the time we did this study, we were very concerned that we would be overrun
with cases as has happened at so many other facilities.
We were really pleased to only find four residents who were infected, but
we were surprised that none of the residents exhibited any symptoms. This
is very – makes it very challenging for workers at the facilities to
protect themselves and for the residents to also protect themselves.
MADDOW: There is – there continues to be in some, you know, guidelines
from various agencies and certainly in practice in a lot of different
workplaces and even in some health care environments where people are using
symptom screening as if that is a gate-keeping procedure that will keep
COVID-19 out of a facility that`s using that kind of a screen. I feel like
I don`t totally understand the disconnect between us understanding the
prospect of asymptomatic infection and the persistence of that as a public
health tool, an ineffectual health tool. It seems to me it gives you a
false sense of security while inviting the virus inside.
ROXBY: It can act as a minimum floor of what people should be doing to
protect against coronavirus, but it is definitely ineffective if you want
to get ahead of this disease and get a handle on this disease. Testing is
the bedrock principle of management of communicable disease for decades,
and in this outbreak, testing is going to be our keystone strategy.
MADDOW: Do you have faith that the kinds of hygiene and social isolation
and testing strategies that are necessary to tackle this thing in these
types of facilities is within the ability of the United States, that we as
a country and as a culture can get these things done, or is this stuff too
high a bar?
ROXBY: No, I think this is definitely achievable, and that was why we were
so interested in publishing the results of this study, because this
facility recognized early on the need to keep residents apart in the
beginning stages of the pandemic, especially here in Seattle where we were
hit so hard in this very environment. And they were able to do that. They
were able to implement simple environmental cleaning strategies, more hand-
washing. And with the testing, we didn`t see any further cases in this
So I think it can work, and we really want to get the message out there
that it`s not hopeless in congregate settings for older adults.
MADDOW: Dr. Alison Roxby, assistant professor of medicine and global health
at the University of Washington – just clear as a bell. Thank you for
helping us understand this and thanks for making it so understandable. I
really appreciate it.
ROXBY: Thank you.
MADDOW: Even though we are closing in on the end of the hour, I`m not
leaving. Much more to come here tonight. It`s a super sized RACHEL MADDOW
And we`re going to be speaking with the chairman of Intelligence Committee,
Congressman Adam Schiff, when we come back.
Stay with us.
MADDOW: Welcome back to the up late version of “The Rachel Maddow Show.”
We`re going an extra half an hour tonight because anarchy.
MADDOW: Because we can, because time has no meaning. I want to begin our
multi-ball bonus time tonight with a look at what is going on in the
increasingly strange saga of Trump national security adviser Mike Flynn.
Between the election of Donald Trump as president and the time that Trump
was sworn in as president, we know that incoming Trump national security
adviser Mike Flynn spoke repeatedly with the Russian government.
We know, among other things, that Flynn and the Russian ambassador
discussed sanctions that were just being imposed on Russia by the Obama
administration in response to the Kremlin attacking our 2016 election to
try to get Donald Trump elected.
Flynn, during the transition, talked to the Russian government about how
the Russians shouldn`t respond in a tit for tat way to those sanctions in
part because the Trump administration might get rid of them.
We know that Mike Flynn later lied about those discussions that he had with
the Russian government when the FBI questioned him about them. That led to
him losing his job as national security adviser after just 24 days on the
job. That`s a record. It also led to him pleading guilty to felony charges
in December 2017.
But despite the release of the Mueller report, which dealt with this to a
certain degree, despite the declassification of Mike Flynn`s FBI interview
notes, despite thousands of pages of court filings and all the recent legal
wrangling over his case, we still do not know what specific words Mike
Flynn exchanged with the Russian ambassador on those calls when he was
apparently telling them don`t worry about the sanctions, we`ll take care of
Now, it seems like we may be one step closer to finding out what exactly
happened in that conversation. Mike Flynn`s immediate legal fate remains
tied up in the courts after the Justice Department decided this month that
they were going to drop the prosecution of him. Never mind that he pled
guilty twice, the Justice Department in an unheard of move decided they
would stop prosecuting him despite the fact that he had already pled
The Trump Justice Department moved to drop that case even as the president
and his allies have started escalating accusations that it was the Obama
administration illegally targeting Mike Flynn and the real criminals are
President Obama and Vice President Biden and lots of other people from the
In response, the top Democrats on the intelligence committees in both the
House and the Senate have called on the acting director of National
Intelligence, Richard Grenell, to release the transcripts of Flynn`s calls
with the Russian government to clear up the matter.
If the Obama administration reacted with such alarm to what Flynn said to
the Russians, and you guys are saying it`s bad that they were so alarmed,
well, then, let us see what they were so alarmed about. We can judge for
In a letter today, the House Intelligence chairman, Adam Schiff, said that
releasing the Flynn transcripts would “ensure a transparent and complete
public record free of political manipulation.” Congressman Schiff sent that
letter this morning to the acting intelligence director, Richard Grenell.
And then in a move that I don`t think many people saw coming, Richard
Grenell said in response, OK. Grenell announced that he was in the process
of declassifying something, some of the transcripts of Flynn`s calls with
the Russian ambassador, maybe. “I already started the declassification for
the few we received. They should be released in full, though. The public
deserves to see it.”
Now, if the administration is actually going to publish those transcripts,
it remains to be seen. Why they would want to remain to be seen. It is
worth noting that Mike Flynn`s lawyer has also called for the transcripts
to be released. She says that doing so would exonerate her client. OK.
It is also worth noting that today, the director of the FBI, Christopher
Wray, ordered an internal review into how the FBI handled the Flynn
investigation even though the Justice Department`s inspector general
already looked into that and found that the FBI had a properly predicated
investigation when they tripped up to Capitol Hill – when they tripped up
to the White House to talk to Flynn.
Notably, Director Wray`s move today came after the president started
sending him nasty grams through recent media interviews. President said,
“Let`s see what happens with him. Look, the jury`s still out.” Days later,
Christopher Wray announced his review of how the FBI handled the Mike Flynn
Joining us now is Congressman Adam Schiff. He is a California congressman.
He is the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. Chairman Schiff,
thank you for making time to talk to us. I know you`ve got a lot in your
plate. I appreciate you being here.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): It is good to be with you.
MADDOW: I have covered the Flynn case I think as extensively as anybody
else in the national media from the very beginning. I will admit to being
sort of flummoxed and baffled are the synonyms. I will admit to being – to
not totally understanding what is going on with the Flynn case right now
and not even understanding the political points that General Flynn`s
supporters and the president are trying to make about him.
Do you have a broad picture sense of what they are trying to do here with
the dropping of this prosecution?
SCHIFF: I think I do, and in the broadest outline, I would say it`s this,
90,000 Americans have died from the virus. Our economy has gone into a
downward spiral to great depression era levels of unemployment. They don`t
know what to do and they don`t want to focus on that, so they need to focus
on something else, so this is the something else.
But it also gets, Rachel, to something Bill Barr said in a very revealing
way when he was asked, what do you think history is going to say about what
you`re doing at the Justice Department, the dropping of the Flynn case, and
you could add to that the intervening in Roger Stone`s prosecution, the
initiation of multiple counter investigations of the investigators.
And his very arrogant smug answer was, well, you know, the winners get to
write history. They`re trying to write history, and it`s very difficult for
them to write because it`s so convoluted and untrue.
And just to look at the whole Flynn case, they need to make a hero out of a
guy who admitted and pled guilty to lying twice in conversations with the
Russians designed to undermine U.S. policy at the time. It is very hard to
make that person a hero. To do it, you have to concoct a massive
conspiracy, something that they`re calling “Obamagate” but they can`t even
articulate what it is.
But they have, you know, willful players like Rick Grenell, who three years
after the fact have been selectively in a politicized way releasing some
information but concealing the rest. This is why we`re calling on him, hey,
if you`re going to start these partisan declassifications, you ought to be
fully transparent and just release it all instead of being selective. Now,
I don`t have much confidence he will do that, but we will keep pressing for
that kind of transparency.
And bear in mind, one last point, Rachel, even while Grenell is claiming to
want transparency, just this week, the Trump Justice Department was
continuing to argue before the Supreme Court that the grand jury materials
in the investigation should not be provided to Congress and should not
under any circumstances be made public.
So, they`re going all the way to the Supreme Court to fight transparency. I
think that tells you how much confidence they have in the underlying
MADDOW: What do you make of this public statement in response to your
request from Rick Grenell in which he seemed to indicate that maybe the
transcripts will be released or something will be released? I mean, I
remember Sally Yates, who was acting attorney general at the time.
She is one of the people who went up to Capitol Hill to tell the White
House, hey, by the way, your national security adviser is in a position to
be blackmailed by the government. He is lying about his contact with them
and the Russians know about it and that`s a really bad position for a
national security adviser to be in. You should maybe do something about it.
What she said about that warning to the White House was that Flynn`s
underlying conduct was problematic. It was not just that he was lying about
it, but what he was lying about, what he was actually doing with the
Russians was of a concern seemingly in a counterintelligence sense.
And so I – that makes me want to know what Mike Flynn was doing in terms
of his underlying context. It makes me want to know what he was saying to
the Russian government. Do you have the sense from Rick Grenell or from the
administration more broadly that the actual transcript of what Flynn said
might ultimately come out?
SCHIFF: It might come out if they feel compelled do so. But, you know, I
think you`re absolutely right about the concern that Sally Yates
articulated. Here you have the incoming national security adviser for the
United States lying to the vice president about a conversation he had with
the Russian ambassador, the vice president misleading the American people,
and the Russians because they`re on the other side of that phone call, they
know that he`s lied and they can compromise him.
That is classic counterintelligence nightmare material. So yes, there was a
profound reason to interview Flynn, which is why the Justice Department
brief arguing for the dismissal of the case is so dishonest and
But in terms of where Rick Grenell is coming from, here is the problem with
what he`s trying to do, which is declassifies selectively these unmasking
requests. And then there is unpublished report. I can`t comment on whether
or not that Flynn`s name may never have been masked to begin with.
Well, that really blows a big hole in what Grenell has been trying to do,
which is establish some theory that they were trying to unmask Flynn so
that they could, I don`t know, persecute Flynn. And now, there are public
reports he wasn`t even masked to begin with, in that call with the
Russians. So, this is the problem I think when you`re trying to weave and
alternate history. That is the facts keep getting in the way.
But at the end of the day, what Rick Grenell is trying to do and he is the
most partisan figure ever to run any intelligence agency at least in my
lifetime, what he`s trying to do is the Steve Bannon model of just flooding
the zone with excrement. Bannon used a stronger word.
But that`s essentially what Rick Grenell is trying to do and what Bill Barr
is trying to do and what the whole counternarrative effort is designed to
do. That is so muddy the waters that people can`t bear out the truth
anymore and there is nothing more destructive to a democracy than the idea
that they`re pushing, which is that there is no such thing as truth
MADDOW: Congressman Adam Schiff of the great state of California, chairman
of the House Intelligence Committee. Sir, thanks very much for being with
us tonight. I will – I apologize for sort of just dumping on you my sense
that this is just really weird and I don`t get it. That`s not usually the
way that I conduct an interview. In this case, I am bamboozled by their
behavior, but you have made sense of it.
SCHIFF: You`re so right because it has that “Alice in Wonderland” quality
of going down the rabbit hole. It`s hard to wrap your head around.
MADDOW: Exactly. Exactly. Flooding the zone with excrement.
MADDOW: So we understand why we feel that way. It is on purpose. Thank you,
sir. It is great to have you here. Much appreciated.
SCHIFF: Thank you.
MADDOW: All right. As we proceed through extra time, multi-ball “Rachel
Maddow Show” tonight, coming up next, I got somebody coming back to the
show who I am really excited to talk to.
This is a doctor who we talked to as she was graduating early on purpose
from medical school, setting out early into the start of her medical
career, specifically so she can work on the frontlines of the fight against
COVID-19 in a public hospital in New York City.
Imagine having that for your first assignment as a brand new minted doctor
who has just graduated early. She`s going to join us here next to tell us
how it has been going. Stay with us.
MADDOW: The Hippocratic Oath is the oath you swear to as a newly minted
doctor after you finished medical school. Swearing the Hippocratic Oath is
a super serious very formal rite of passage for doctors in this country.
You may have seen one done on TV at some point. You may even have seen one
in real life. But I would bet good money you have not seen one like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For graduates only, please unmute your phones at this
UNIDENTIFIED MALE/UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do solemnly swear, by that which I
do hold most sacred, that I will be loyal to the profession of medicine and
just and generous to its members, that I will lead my life and practice my
art in uprightness and honor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: It goes on like that for another minute or so. But that – that
beautiful clunky zoom call orchestra with all the hitches and glitches, and
am I talking now and what do I say now? That was 50 or so students from the
NYU School of Medicine taking the Hippocratic Oath over video chat early
last month, in early April, as they were all graduating months ahead of
schedule and in the middle of a global pandemic.
Just a week before that, at the end of March, New York City was really
heading into the worst of it, the peak of their curve with thousands of new
cases and over a thousand new hospitalizations every day. And it started to
become apparent that the city`s hospitals didn`t have enough staff to
handle the absolute flood of coronavirus patients they were getting.
The state asked for help, and the medical school at NYU became the first
school in the country to make a huge ask of their fourth year students.
Would they please consider graduating early and becoming doctors now?
Swearing that oath now? So they could start working in the hospitals with
the most COVID patients right away.
These are the students who said yes. And we spoke with one of those
students, Gabrielle Mayer, in March when she had just volunteered. She had
just made that decision. Today, Gabrielle Mayer is a doctor. She just
finished a five-week deployment in a COVID ward at Bellevue Hospital in New
York City. She joins us live now.
Dr. Mayer, congratulations. Thank you for checking back in with us. You
said at the time that you would come check back in and you have been good
to your word.
GABRIELLE MAYER, INTERNAL MEDICINE RESIDENT, NYU LANGONE/BELLEVUE HOSPITAL:
Thank you so much for having me. It is a pleasure to be back on the show.
MADDOW: I looked into it. And on your first day in the hospital, April
13th, New York City reported 1,200 COVID-19 hospitalizations that day. By
your last day, which was this past Sunday, it wasn`t 1,200 anymore. It was
a little bit under 70. So you were there for the precipitous fall. What was
it like? Was it like at the start and what was it like to see that
transition over time?
MAYER: It was remarkable. The first week that I was in the hospital, I
noticed that there were frequent codes being called overhead. Most if not
all the patients who are in the hospital were there for COVID-related
complications. And at a certain point a lull hit, and we saw fewer and
fewer patients coming in with COVID-related chief complaints. And slowly
but surely, people with non-COVID-related issues started coming to the
hospital at a slower more manageable rate.
MADDOW: When you started, when you jumped in there at the deep end, again,
more than a thousand new hospitalizations in New York at that point, you`re
working at public hospital in New York that is right there on the
frontlines, how overwhelmed were you? How did you feel once you started
working about your decision to graduate early, to jump in right away and to
start doing this kind of work?
MAYER: The moment I showed up on the first day, I knew that it was going to
be an experience that is unforgettable, would feel fully supported and not
overwhelming because of the number of residents and mentors and teachers
who were looking out for not just the new graduates but also for all of the
residents and frontline health care workers, and so I felt incredibly
supported throughout the whole experience.
MADDOW: I understand that the surge team, that you were part of the extra
doctors that were added to Bellevue to try to handle the influx, it wasn`t
just your med school class. It was a pretty diverse group that came on
board to surge support into that facility. Can you tell us about that at
all, the other people who are part of this surge?
MAYER: It was a wonderful mix of people in the work rooms or the call rooms
where the doctors would congregate and write notes. We had different kinds
of health care providers coming in from as far as North Carolina.
We had individuals who were treating in other non-medical or non-general
internal medicine subspecialties like dermatologists and radiologists
coming back and joining us in the medicine call rooms to support this
increased capacity in the hospital. That was truly inspiring to see, that
kind of community rally for New York City at large.
MADDOW: Treating all the patients who you treated and being part of that
process, being part of that cohort, did it change how you thought about the
disease at all? We talked about it a little before you started doing this.
We`ve all gone through in education living through this as a country. Did
your understanding of it change fundamentally? Is there something that we
didn`t understand about it before you did this that we ought to understand
from you now?
MAYER: I think that what I had read before going in mimicked what I saw in
the hospitals. But I think the part that you can`t understate is the
importance of the human connection, which is hard to find in these moments
I want to give a particular nod to the entire community at Bellevue who
called patients` families and made sure that the loved ones were aware of
what was happening every day, from medical students to fellow resident
physicians to attending physicians. Everybody was making sure that those
human connections were kept alive despite the fact that contact precautions
made it a little more challenging.
MADDOW: Dr. Gabrielle Mayer, who volunteered to graduate early from med
school and get on the frontlines at Bellevue Hospital in New York City,
thank you for being with us. I know that you are isolating now, having
finished that deployment, and you will be going back to work when you are
through this quarantine period. I hope you can enjoy it as some down time.
Thanks for what you do.
MAYER: Thanks so much. Take care.
MADDOW: All right. We`ll be right back. Stay with us.
MADDOW: Heads up for something to watch for after the Memorial Day weekend.
You might remember, last month, the inspector general`s office at the
Department of Health and Human Services released like a 40-page long report
that spelled out the lack of PPE to keep health care workers safe and the
lack of badly needed medical equipment at hospitals across the country.
The person responsible for that report, the person whose name was on the
first page, is Christi Grimm, principal deputy inspector general at Health
and Human Services.
When that report came out, the president denounced it as if it wasn`t true
and denounced her for having written it and Christi Grimm was sure enough
soon pushed out of that supposedly independent job at HHS.
But here`s the thing, they can`t just disappear these people. On Tuesday,
the first day back from the long weekend Christi Grimm is going to testify
live in public session at the House Oversight Committee, which is going to
be absolutely worth seeing, worth looking forward to.
That`s going to do it for us tonight and since we`re just calling it normal
now for me to be on for an hour and a half, now I will also play it off as
normal that after me tonight, it`s time for the 11th hour with Brian
Williams. Sure, why not?
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