The Rachel Maddow Show, Transcript 05/28/15

Lynn Sweet, Michael McFaul, Danny Vargas

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Thanks, my friend.
Appreciate it.

HAYES: You bet.

MADDOW: Thanks to you at home as well for joining us at this hour.

OK. This is kind of an amazing story. Historically speaking one of
the things that will always be awkward about the Bill Clinton impeachment
era is that Newt Gingrich, who was speaker of the House at the time of the
Clinton impeachment, right, leading the impeachment crusade against
President Clinton because of President Clinton`s extramarital affair, Newt
Gingrich later had to admit that at that time that he was leading that
crusade against President Clinton because of the president`s affair, he,
too, Newt Gingrich, he was also himself having an extramarital affair at
that time. One of several as it turns out.

And that is like the – you know, neon glowing hypocrisy asterisk
that will always float over that particular and particularly weird time in
American political history.

You know what? Newt Gingrich was not the only one. In 1998, in the
middle of the whole Clinton impeachment mishegoss, there was a midterm
election, the `98 midterms. And the president`s party, historically
speaking, always does poorly during midterm elections.

And so, historically speaking, you would normally expect the
Democratic Party to get clobbered in that election. It was the second
midterm of President Clinton`s two terms in office.

But this impeachment thing that the Republicans had dreamed up over
President Clinton`s extramarital affair, however exciting the whole
impeachment process it was to them, it was basically disgusting to the rest
of the country. And the Democrats not only didn`t get clobbered in those
midterm elections, they did great in those midterm elections. They
actually picked up seats in the House, which historically speaking is
unheard of.

In `98, the Democrats did way better than expected. It was in the
middle of the impeachment thing and Newt Gingrich, who had been the speaker
of the House, leading the House Republicans in that election, leading the
House Republicans on the impeachment issue and everything else, Newt
Gingrich in the wake of those midterms stepped down as speaker and
ultimately resigned from Congress.

And so, with Newt Gingrich out under those interesting circumstances,
the Republicans needed a new speaker to replace him after that terrible
midterm election. They needed a new leader.

Remember, they`re still in middle of impeaching President Clinton
over his extramarital affair. So, the Republicans decided they would have
to pick a new guy, and they picked a new guy, and that went like this – it
was a total disaster.


REP. BOB LIVINGSTON (R), LOUISIANA: I will vote to impeach the
president of the United States. To the president I would say, sir, you
have done great damage to this nation over this past year. And while your
defenders are contending that further impeachment proceedings would only
protract and exacerbate the damage to this country, I`d say that you have
the power to terminate that damage and heal the wounds that you have
created. You, sir, may resign your post.


CROWD: No! No!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The house will be in order.

LIVINGSTON: And I can only challenge you in such fashion if I am
willing to heed my own words. I was prepared to lead our narrow majority
as speaker, and I believe I had it in me to do a fine job. But I cannot do
that job or be the kind of leader that I would like to be under current


MADDOW: They had picked Louisiana Republican Congressman Bob
Livingston to be the new speaker after Newt Gingrich resigned. But then it
turned out that Bob Livingston, too, had been having extramarital affairs.
And so, he couldn`t be the speaker for them either, not while they were
still in the midst of impeaching President Clinton for his affairs.

And so, Livingston gets picked as speaker and then immediately has to
resign. Then what are they going to do? They`ve got other Republicans in
leadership. They could have picked one of their wild men at the time.
Dick Armey on the right of your screen there, or Tom DeLay on the left of
your screen, they were both kind of fire breathers like Newt Gingrich had

But after what Newt Gingrich had brought them to, after the Bob
Livingston “I had affairs too” public relations catastrophe in the middle
of what they were trying to do in the Bill Clinton impeachment, with all of
that going on, with all of that turmoil in `98, after losing the midterms,
the middle of the impeachment, recognizing it`s a political disaster,
losing Newt Gingrich, picking Bob Livingston, losing Bob Livingston, not
wanting Tom Delay, not wanting Armey – with all of that going on, facing
the historic defeat in the elections, they decided, Republicans decided
they needed to play it safe.

They needed somebody to calm everything down. They needed somebody
with no scandal dragging around behind him, somebody who didn`t have
enemies under every rock in Washington, somebody who wasn`t a fire breather
and super controversial and came across like an insurgent or a
revolutionary, they would need somebody competent and trustworthy seeming,
somebody kind of low key and most of all somebody squeaky clean.

And they had somebody, luckily, who fit that bill, and they picked
that guy basically from obscurity and made him the next speaker of the
House, next in line to the presidency after the vice president. They found
their guy.


TOM BROKAW, NBC NEWS: Newt Gingrich was the powerful speaker of the
House, then he was gone after the election replaced by Bob Livingston of
Louisiana. Now he`s gone, the result of extramarital affairs. And he will
likely be replaced by whom?

NBC`s Gwen Ifill.

GWEN IFILL, NBC: Dennis Hastert`s profile is so low that even after
six terms in Congress, most Americans, even many in Washington, have no
idea who he is. But Republicans say the former wrestling coach is just who
they need to rally their team.

DENNIS HASTERT (R), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: I didn`t really seek this
at all. It just kind of happened. We needed to heal the wounds and need
to reach out across the aisle.

IFILL: Allies say Hastert is a fixer, who can talk to Democrats and
heal House Republicans now rocked with internal strife.

REP. BILL PAXON (R), NEW YORK: The members wanted someone they know
was solid, a man of integrity, had no personal problems but also could lead
this team with a very narrow majority.


MADDOW: J. Dennis Hastert, better known as Denny Hastert, became the
speaker of the House after the `98 midterms. He served as speaker of the
House until the Democrats took back the majority in the house in 2006 and
Nancy Pelosi became speaker. That tenure makes Denny Hastert the longest
serving Republican House speaker ever – plucked from obscurity to hold
that incredibly high-profile job and chosen for the job in part because he
was so darn noncontroversial, non-scandalous. As they say, squeaky clean.

Today, Denny Hastert was indicted by a federal grand jury in what
appears to be an elaborate hush-money scheme, maybe a blackmail scheme?

John Stanton at “BuzzFeed” was first to report this indictment today,
and although apparently there had been rumors in Washington for a few weeks
that Denny Hastert was maybe in some kind of legal trouble, for most
people, the news late today came as a bolt from the blue.

And the indictment is short. It`s only seven pages. I print them
two pages to a sheet so for me it`s even shorter. It`s only seven pages,
but it`s a really, really dramatic and really mysterious indictment. What
it describes a series of meetings that happened between some unnamed person
and Denny Hastert starting in 2010.

Now, in 2010, Denny Hastert had already left Congress. Allegedly,
this person starting in 2010, this person confronted Denny Hastert about
some kind of past misconduct, past misconduct by Denny Hastert against this
individual, misconduct that had occurred, quote, “years earlier”.

Quote, from the indictment, “During the 2010 meetings and subsequent
discussions, defendant J. Dennis Hastert agreed to provide individual A
with $3.5 million in order to compensate for and conceal his prior
misconduct against individual A.”

Now, at no point in this indictment do we learn who individual A is,
we don`t know if individual A is a man or a woman. We also do not learn
what the alleged past misconduct is for which Denny Hastert allegedly
agreed to pay $3.5 million in hush money and compensation for whatever it
is he supposedly did.

What we get in terms of the detail is a point-by-point breakdown of
how the cash moved, of how the former speaker went on to make allegedly
huge cash payments to this unnamed person in amounts up to $100,000 at a
time, $100,000 in cash – that`s a lot of bills.

The unraveling of the whole thing appears to be in the way the former
speaker allegedly withdrew this cash from his various bank accounts. Large
cash transactions of over $10,000 are subject to federal reporting
requirements. They`re subject to federal scrutiny as a way to try to stop
money laundering and other large-scale crimes. That`s been the law

Denny Hastert apparently had started out making cash withdrawals of
$50,000 at a time and that`s above the $10,000 threshold. So, amounts like
that under federal banking law have to be federally reported. His bank
therefore started asking him about those very large withdrawals.

After they asked him about it, he switched and finally figured out
that maybe he should be taking out less than 10 grand at a time to avoid
triggering the reporting requirement.

That said, specifically structuring your cash withdrawals so they`re
just under the limit to try to avoid the reporting requirement, that is
also a crime, and by 2013 – again, remember, this confrontation apparently
happened with this unnamed person in 2010, he started paying this person
shortly thereafter – by 2013, the FBI and the IRS were investigating Denny

One of the two counts in the indictment against him today says that
the former speaker lied to the FBI about what he was doing with all that
cash he was withdrawing from his bank accounts, hundreds and hundreds of
thousands of dollars, the FBI says that he told them when they asked,
quote, “Yes, I kept the cash, that`s what I`m doing.”

That`s not true, according to federal prosecutors and this grand jury
and indictment unsealed today. What the indictment says is that what he
was doing with all that cash was that he was paying someone off regularly
and regularly scheduled payoffs. He`s paying somebody off to make good on,
sort of compensate for and also to cover up something that Denny Hastert
had allegedly done wrong to that person years ago.

We don`t know what that is, but here`s two things to consider: this
is going to sound like it`s really out of left field, but it`s a connection
to this that seems like we ought to consider given this – given the
opacity of the indictment on this point.

Do you remember the Sibel Edmonds case? She was an FBI-translator-
turned-whistleblower who said during the George W. Bush era that she had
been fired when she tried to expose legal and scandalous things that she
had overheard in her job as an FBI translator.

One of the things, one of the lower-profile things that she alleged
in the year 2005 was that she had overheard Turkish wiretap targets
bragging that they were secretly paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to
the then-speaker of the House, Denny Hastert. That was one of the
allegations made by Sibel Edmonds.

I do not know what to make of those allegations but those allegations
exist from a decade ago. They may now be cast in a new light given this

The second thing to consider is from the indictment itself that`s
just out today.

Now, the mystery here is not just did he do it, but what did he
allegedly do? If the former speaker of the House, Denny Hastert, was
paying hush money to someone to cover up something he had done years
earlier, what did he allegedly do and to whom did he allegedly do it?

To that point, the very top line of the indictment is one of the more
striking things I have seen in any sort of criminal case like this. And it
may be a clue.

Here bluntly is how the indictment starts. Here it is:

“1. At times material to this indictment: A, from approximately 1965
to 1981 defendant John Dennis Hastert was a high school teacher and coach
in New Yorkville, Illinois.”

In the next paragraph, “B, individual A has been a resident of
Yorkville, Illinois, and has known defendant John Hastert most of
individual A`s life.”

Is that of material interest to this indictment because this so-
called past misconduct that had occurred years earlier happened in
Yorkville, Illinois, before Denny Hastert was speaker of the House, before
Denny Hastert was member of Congress, before Denny Hastert was a member of
politics at all, when he was just teaching high school and coaching high
school sports?

That is what is hinted at by the start of this indictment. Is that
when the misconduct happened and by extension to whom it happened? Don`t
know. We really don`t.

Former House Speaker Denny Hastert has been a high-priced Washington
lobbyist since he retired from Congress in 2007. This alleged
confrontation with the person who said he was wronged by Denny Hastert
years before happened three years later in 2010.

As a lobbyist, Denny Hastert has been sort of as obscured in his
post-Congress life as he was obscured before he was plucked from that
obscurity to become third in line to the presidency and one of the most
powerful people in the country, under those bizarre political
circumstances, back during the Clinton impeachment era in 1998.

He started off obscure. He went immediately pack to obscurity once
he left Congress, but that obscurity today came to an abrupt end with one
of more surprising turns in American political scandal that I can remember
in a very long time. What happened here?

Joining us next is somebody who very well may know.


MADDOW: When this surprise indictment was unsealed today against
former Republican Speaker of the House Denny Hastert, the “Chicago Sun-
Times” remarked in its article about the indictment that Denny Hastert is
believed to be the highest ranking Illinois politician ever charged with a
crime. And that really sounds like something. But specifically in
Illinois, that really is something, because Illinois is really special in
terms of charging its politicians, its high-ranking politicians with

I mean, Illinois has sent four of its governors to prison just in the
last 50 years. One of Illinois`s most recent congressmen has just been
transferred from prison to a halfway house to serve out the remainder of
his sentence. That`s Jesse Jackson Jr.

Another Illinois Congressman Aaron Shock has just resigned from
Congress and is under federal investigation himself and depending on how
his cases go, he may get to scratch his name into the wall of the crowbar
hotel alongside with the others who have preceded him there.

Illinois is great when it comes to criminal politicians. They are
really top of the heap.

But Denny Hastert? Former speaker of the House, Mr. Low Key Denny

Nobody saw this coming from him or did they?

Joining us now is Lynn Sweet, Washington bureau chief for “The
Chicago Sun-Times”.

Lynn, it`s great to see you. Thanks for your time tonight.


MADDOW: There – I have heard today since the news broke there were
some rumors that something might have been swimming around Denny Hastert in
terms of legal trouble. Were you surprised today when you heard about this

SWEET: Everyone was surprised by the nature of this indictment and
the indictment itself with all this mysterious person A, potential
blackmail plot going on here. I talked to many of Denny`s – and everyone
called him Denny as you noted, many of his friends and acquaintances,
stunned and puzzled about what was going on and what could possibly be at
issue that would have led him to be in fact be part of what looks like
either an extortion or blackmail scheme.

But Hastert, according to the indictment, was agreeing to go along
with it. So, this is such a sad end. I was in the chamber that December
day in 1998 that you talked about earlier in the show when I saw how
quickly he put together the votes to become the speaker. Like that he was
able to do it.

And to have this now at age 73 be the end or however this resolved, I
cover a lot of Illinois political figures. My joke is, and it doesn`t
sound like a joke tonight, I cover them from announcement to indictment.
Once again this seems to be the case.

MADDOW: Lynn, there is this strange and maybe it`s immaterial, but
it`s striking, the first line of the indictment specifically points out
from 1965 to 1981, he was a high school teacher and coach in Yorkville,
Illinois. The implication of that, and it may be a stretch, we`ll find out
more at some point, I assume, the implication of that is that the past
misconduct that he was paying off about might date back to that time.

Was there ever any sort of a hint of a scandal or shadow from this
time in his life?

SWEET: No. He was a beloved wrestling coach at the school. I agree
with you that they could have picked some other things because he went from
being a high school teacher to a being a member of the Illinois general
assembly. That`s not in this document that you and I have.

So, I think the people – the lawyers who drafted this did this for a
reason because otherwise what material nature is this? So, if it doesn`t
have anything to do with someone from there, then this indictment does a
disservice. I mean, the man`s already in trouble. Just either say what it
is or don`t draft these hints on it.

I think in due time, because Chicago investigative reporters have a
great tradition of figuring these things out, I bet we`ll know who
individual A is. It`s only a matter of time.

MADDOW: Excuse me. I apologize.

SWEET: Bless you.

MADDOW: Thank you. I have been doing television for X number of
years. I`ve been radio for five years before that.


MADDOW: That`s the first time I`ve ever sneezed on air in my entire
broadcasting career.

SWEET: I wish I had a tissue for you but I don`t have one.

MADDOW: No, I`m sorry. Just – I feel like it must be an omen about
something strange about this story.

Lynn Sweet, thank you for helping us understand this. Thanks very

SWEET: Sure. It`s where Washington is really taken by surprise.
This one was it.

MADDOW: Yes, exactly. That`s how weird it is. Lynn is, of course,
Washington bureau chief for the “Chicago Sun-Times.”

It is – this is a remarkably shocking thing. I mean, anytime you`re
talking about potentially extortion or blackmail and a high-profile
politician, it is a shocking criminal indictment. But for it to happen to
somebody whose whole major political career was around the fact he was seen
as such a non-scandalous person as somebody who could be counted on to stay
out of the headlines in terms of negative implications and things from his
personal life, it`s just a truly shocking turn of event – so much so that
I just sneezed.

All right. Lots more ahead. Stay with us.


MADDOW: Vladimir Putin has been in power in Russia for a long time
now. He`s been either president or prime minister for nearly 16 years now.
First became prime minister in August 1999.

Just a couple years into his tenure, an opposition member of
parliament was shot to death in Moscow under mysterious circumstances.
Nobody exactly knew what happened to the guy, nobody was ever prosecuted
for the crime, but another opposition member of parliament was quoted by
the BBC at the time saying that the man`s death was a political
assassination. That it was politically motivated.

Well, eight months later, that other opposition member of parliament
who made that claim to the BBC, he himself was the next one to be shot to
death in mysterious circumstances on the streets of Moscow.

The following year, it was another opposition member of parliament,
who was also a journalist at a liberal Russian newspaper. He was killed,
although this time they didn`t shoot him, he died after the onset of a
mysterious and unexplained illness that lasted for 16 days before it
ultimately killed him. Turns out he was poisoned to death.

The following year, it was another journalist from the same liberal
newspaper. She suffered multiple organ failure after being served poison
tea onboard a Russian airliner. She survived that poisoning attempt
barely, but two years later, they got her anyway. Her name Anna
Politkovskaya, she was shot to death at the entrance to her apartment
building in Moscow in October 2006.

A few weeks later, it was the very famous case of this guy, Alexander
Litvinenko, an ex-KGB officer to who turned into a fierce critic of
Vladimir Putin.

He was in London, with just weeks after Anna Politkovskaya was shot
in Moscow. He was in London weeks later. He was poisoned in London with
an extremely rare and deadly radioactive isotope called plutonium 210. It
made him gravely ill. It turned him blue.

From his death bed, he wrote a screed implicating Vladimir Putin in
his murder and within three weeks of being poisoned, he too was dead. And,
oddly, that was not the only time it happened in the U.K.

In 2012, it was a Russian finance guy who had fled Russia and turned
into a whistle-blower when he uncovered a huge fraud scheme in which top
Russian officials from the Putin government had stolen over $200 million.
He was healthy guy, didn`t take any med cases, no known health problems, he
was 44 years old. He mysteriously collapsed while jogging in a London

“The Guardian” newspaper in London reported last week that botanists
have now identified in his remains the traces of an extremely rare and
deadly plant poison called gelsemium, gelsemium is lovely in its flower
form, and if properly processed it can apparently quickly and efficiently
kill you.

This past Friday was perhaps the most popular anti-Putin Russian
politician in Russia. They killed him the old-fashioned way. He was shot
dead by someone in a moving car as he walked on a Moscow street. Vladimir
Putin said at the time that he would personally investigate that

The man that was killed in that assassination, he`s on the right, the
man on the left in the same a picture is apparently the next one now – the
next one up in Vladimir Putin`s Russia. His wife and his three kids live
here in the U.S., but he lives in Moscow where he works for one of the last
remaining opposition NGOs that Putin hasn`t figured out how to shut down

He was working at his Moscow office on Tuesday when he suddenly
collapsed and fell unconscious. He was rushed to hospital. He has not
regained consciousness. He is being treated apparently for acute kidney
failure that doctors say is a result of acute nonalcoholic intoxication of
some unknown origin. In other words, he also appears to have been

It`s not like this pattern is subtle, right? I mean, just to do that
little timeline over a couple of minutes, I`m only giving just the
highlights. I mean, I could give you another dozen cases of shootings and
poisonings that all fit the same pattern if we wanted to flush out the
timeline even more.

At what point does that sort of thing become the main thing that
Russia and Vladimir Putin are known for? I mean, when do they think this
might be a little heavy handed, a little too obvious, maybe they should
scoff if only for appearances?

In the lead-up to Russia hosting the winter Olympics in Sochi last
year, you might remember that Vladimir Putin made a big show of freeing
some of his critics from prison, including the band Pussy Riot and this
outspoken Putin critic and billionaire who Putin had kept in jail for 10
years that were a little wooly to say the least. That billionaire fled to
Switzerland after getting his Olympics clemency.

From Switzerland, he`s been running this stealthy international NGO
called Open Russia, and that group how apparently has one of its top
leaders dying of kidney failure caused by some unknown poison, some unknown
intoxicants after he collapsed at his desk in Moscow on Tuesday at the ripe
old age of 33.

His wife says he has not regained consciousness at all since he
initially collapsed. She fears that he is going to die in that Russian
hospital without anybody being allowed to know what happened to him. She
says she`s trying to get him moved to a hospital anywhere outside Russia,
anywhere – Europe, the Middle East, the U.S.

And maybe this guy from Open Russia will survive, God willing he
will. If he does not, he will become the latest in what is an incredibly
long list of journalists and activists and critics of Vladimir Putin who
have mysteriously been shot to death or in surprisingly large numbers
poisoned to death since Vladimir Putin took hold of that country by its
throat 16 years ago.

Joining us now is Michael McFaul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia.

Ambassador McFaul, thank you for being with us tonight.


MADDOW: So, the Kremlin is denying any involvement in this apparent
poisoning. How – is it fair to view it in light of the kinds of previous
incidents that I just laid out?

MCFAUL: Well, of course. I mean, to be honest, listening to what
you`ve just said, even I – and I know some of these people personally –
have forgotten just how long this list is and, by the way, how few people
have gone to jail as a result of these actions. And at the same time, in
the spirit of not knowing all the facts, we don`t know what happened to
Vladimir – another colleague of mine who I`ve known for many years, the
gentleman now in the hospital.

But, you know, when you add it up and connect the dots as you just
did, it does feel like it is a pattern and it does feel like people can do
this and not be held accountable for it.

MADDOW: Because of that pattern – and again, I take your point
that, you know, we don`t know all the facts about this, no reason to rush
to judgment but also no reason to be woefully ignorant about the pattern –
does this M.O. in Russia of people being killed under these mysterious
circumstances and nobody ever being held accountable or being named as
being responsible for it, what sort of effect does it have on Vladimir
Putin`s power and on the ability of people to organize opposition to him?

MCFAUL: Well, for the opposition, it has the obvious chilling
effect. People in Russia are scared. And many of them have left the
country. Many of them now live in London. Many of them live here in the
Bay Area, in Palo Alto, precisely because of fear for their lives.

Whether they should or not, whether they should be fearful of the
Kremlin or not, the perception among the opposition is that it`s a
dangerous place to be an opponent to Mr. Putin.

The second effect, though, is even a bigger one, and a little more
nuanced, which is that the Putin regime, his media outlets for now two,
almost three years, have labeled these people traitors. They`ve labeled
them enemies of the state. They`ve labeled them puppets of the United
States, and therefore that stirs up crazy people.

Some of these crazy people, by the way, had death threats against me
when I was ambassador. And that`s just another sign of the times, right?

So, maybe Putin himself, did he order that Vladimir Kara-Murza should
be poisoned? I doubt it, but might some people acting allegedly in his
behalf or allegedly for the nation-state have taken this upon themselves to
go after and destroy Vladimir or Mr. Nemtsov, who you mentioned earlier,
that I think is also plausible. But ultimately, the Kremlin should also be
held accountable for that hatred they`ve spun up.

MADDOW: Mike McFaul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia, now at
Stanford – thanks very much for that perspective. It`s really, really
helpful. Thank you.

All right. We got lots more ahead, including interesting
developments today in the 2016 race and a very smart Republican to talk to
about it. Oh, yes.

Lots ahead. Stay with us.



swag ideas for the Friday night news dump.


MCKINNEY: I`m putting some things down but don`t look at these. You
have to look at this one first.

MADDOW: I`ll make some space.


MADDOW: Oh, I remember this! Herman Cain is an art project! This
is our thesis we wanted to make. Wow.

MCKINNEY: Yes. It`s from 2011. And it`s so timely that we have
this now that we`re talk about the GOP debates.

MADDOW: That`s so great.

MCKINNEY: Because this was like a lot of the things you played. So
it was so funny.

MADDOW: That`s great. I remember having to make this on my exact
wingspan, too.

MCKINNEY: Yes. We have the same wingspan.

MADDOW: That`s great.


MADDOW: So good.

MCKINNEY: Two random things. I found this game in the closet. No
idea why we have that. Doesn`t ring a bell for anyone.

MADDOW: I have no idea.

MCKINNEY: It`s some flashy game.

MADDOW: It`s brain teaser?

MCKINNEY: And we never opened it so –

MADDOW: It has batteries.


MADDOW: Eight of them. OK.

MCKINNEY: Seems like it could be a nice present.

And this I think must have come from a publicist. It`s a puzzle. I
don`t know what it`s a puzzle of.

MADDOW: What does it make? We don`t know?

MCKINNEY: No. They put it together. It looks like a restaurant. I
think I see booze.

MADDOW: Yes. That`s a speed pourer. So that`s like – it could be
like a dirty picture and we don`t know.

MCKINNEY: I did – I did lay out all the pieces to see –

MADDOW: Oh, no, there`s a nipple, we can`t send that one.

MCKINNEY: Well, it`s a mystery, mystery puzzle.

MADDOW: I like all of these very much. This is going to be
difficult. I think we give people the choice of the mystery puzzle or the
Herman Cain art project.

MCKINNEY: OK. That seems like a good idea.

MADDOW: Yes, and then this one we should keep in case it`s
somebody`s birthday and we forgot to get them something.

MCKINNEY: Oh, great, let`s hope they don`t watch.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s try New York governors, $400.

ALEX TREBEK, JEOPARDY: When he left office after the 1994 election,
he had served as New York governor longer than any Democrat in history.


TREBEK: Which one?


TREBEK: Thank you.


MADDOW: Governors of New York was the “Jeopardy” category.
Governors of New York.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New York governors for $800, please?

TREBEK: He took New York into the 21st century.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is Bloomberg?

TREBEK: No. Who is George Pataki?


MADDOW: Who is George Pataki?

Who is George Pataki? Today , he`s the man who announced that he`s
running for president of the United States! Luckily, the nomination will
not be decided by a game show.

We started a few weeks ago with a list of 22 candidates and likely
candidates for the Republican nomination for president. Since then, three
of these folks have announced that they`ve decided not to run, so we can
poof the three of them. Poof! Now we`re down to 19.

As of last night, with Rick Santorum`s big announcement, that means
as of last night seven Republicans officially announced they were running
for president, with George Pataki jumping in formally today that makes it
eight Republicans formally in the race.

And then there are the folks who haven`t necessarily announced yet
but they have said that they`re going to announce at a specific time in the
near future. Right now, that`s Lindsey Graham due to announce on Monday.
That`s Rick Perry due to announce a week from today. That`s John Kasich
who we`re told will make his decision by June 30th.

And now, as of today, we can add one more to the list of Republican
hopefuls not yet dissuaded from running and will tell us soon, Congressman
Peter King telling MSNBC`s Andrea Mitchell today he will announce his
decision, quote, “in the next month,” which means he gets a dotted line
too. That means our huge field of candidates is not shrinking.

And it turns out that makes for amazing polling. A new Quinnipiac
poll out just today of Republican voters nationwide asked about 16 of the
Republican hopefuls for president. The winner by a long mile is
undecided/don`t know. Landslide.

The runner-up is a tie. A five-way tie between Jeb Bush, Scott
Walker, Marco Rubio, Ben Carson, and, yes, Mike Huckabee all coming in at
10 percent.

Sadly, in this poll, George Pataki who just announced today and a
bunch of other Republican would-bes, including Lindsey Graham, and Bobby
Jindal, and Rick Perry, don`t even crack the top ten in this brand-new

And in a field this big, that wouldn`t necessarily matter. It`s kind
of a statistical by-product of so many people running, except for the fact
that this year being in the top ten of the most recent national polls is
the only way you can get a spot on stage at the first Republican debate on
August 6th.

And here`s part of the drama around that – Rick Santorum, at the
beginning of the 2012 Republican presidential primary, he was polling next
to nothing. But in the presidential primary, he made it into the debates,
he made his case, and he went on to become this guy who came in second, the
runner-up to Mitt Romney by the end of it, not to mention the guy who won
Iowa. Rick Santorum would also be left out of the first debate this year
based on at least today`s national polling from Quinnipiac.

For the past week, Senator Santorum has been using that to make the
case against the FOX News criteria for the first Republican debate. He`s
been arguing instead that all the conceivably viable candidates should get
a chance on stage, even if they have to do it over the course of different,
smaller debates rather than one big one. Looking at the field and looking
at the polling in this giant field, honestly, I think he makes a good

Why would you reasonably exclude him, especially after his
performance in 2012, and include somebody like, I don`t know, any of the
other guys who are in there?

If Republicans really are trying to figure out who would be the best
and most viable candidate in the general election and that`s what their
primary process is for, really significantly basing that decision on who
makes the top ten in a national poll right now, it makes no strategic sense
at all. There are just too many of them for that statistical cut off to
make any rational strategic sense.

And that said, I say that as a liberal. My question is, do
Republicans see it that same way? Hold that thought.



person to comment on this. In January of 2012, I was at 4 percent of the
national polls, and I won the Iowa caucuses. I don`t know if I was last in
the polls, but I was pretty close to last. And so, the idea that the
national poll has any relationship as to the viability of the candidate,
ask Rudy Giuliani about it. Ask Phil Gramm.


MADDOW: Rick Santorum just yesterday officially announced that he`s
running for the Republican nomination. And although he finished second
place to Mitt Romney in 2012 and he won Iowa and won ten other states, Mr.
Santorum now finds himself at the tail end, the very tail end of recent
national polls, which means that right now under the current selection
criteria being used by the party, he wouldn`t even qualify to appear in the
first Republican debate of the primary season this year.

Doesn`t that seem weird?

Joining us now is Danny Vargas, Republican strategist, former chair
of the Hispanic National Assembly. I should mention, he`s also running for
a seat in the Virginia House of Delegates this year.

Mr. Vargas, thanks very much for being with us. I appreciate your
time tonight.

the way, I love the little graphic thing with the poof. The graphics
department did a really good job with that.

MADDOW: Well, we were worried we didn`t want it to look like we were
hurting or blowing up or casting aspersions on the people. We wanted to
make it like a pleasant cartoon poof.

VARGAS: That`s very gentle. I appreciate it.


So, I feel like when I look at the giant Republican field and the
fact it is not a clown car, it is a lot of serious candidates, the
Republican party has a deep bench, they`ve got a lot of people who have a
roughly equivalent chance of getting the nomination, it seems nuts to me
that only ten people are going to get into the first debate.

Do you see it that same way? Do you have that same analysis?

VARGAS: I do – so I`ve got a bit of a concern. I mean, any process
that would leave out Rick Santorum, that would leave out John Kasich is a
process that`s a bit flawed, especially when we know that national polls
can swing wildly, violently, week to week or even day to day.

So, I think Senator Santorum has a point. We may have to have a
process by which we have a couple different debates on the same day or, you
know, even a process that`s a much longer debate where everyone has an
opportunity to interact with each other.

I think the American public deserves the abilities to listen to each
of these candidates and see them interact with each other.

MADDOW: You know, the idea we just have more debate, if you don`t
want 20 people on a stage, go seven at a time and be more of them, it
seemed – would seem to be one of the more obvious ways to deal with this.
But there was this deliberate and rational decision made by the Republican
Party this year to limit the number of debates in parts that they don`t
sort of see the candidates do damage to each other and the way they think
they did in 2012.

Is that concern part of what needs to be balanced here?

VARGAS: Well, I think the concern on the part of the party – and I
agree with that, I agree with Chairman Priebus and the fact that we did
have to reduce and condense the calendar a little bit. But if that means
we can do two debates in a single day, whether the voting public gets the
opportunity to see in a single day, debate A, debate B, we have all the
candidates in there and describing their positions, they are able to
interact with each other, you still have the calendar that`s sort of reduce
and we have a quicker process, but you give the opportunity for the public
to be able to see the debates.

MADDOW: I have to ask you the awkward question here which is about
this first debate and the fact that this decision, this, I think,
irrational – not irrational, but I think unfortunate decision that isn`t
good for all the candidates and it doesn`t seem fair to most people, let
alone strategic this decision was not necessarily made by the Republican
Party. It was made by the host of the debate, which is FOX News, which is
not just a typical media outlet when it comes to its relationship with the
Republican Party.

Can the party go back to FOX and renegotiate this? Is it in FOX`s
interest, even if it isn`t the Republican Party`s interest?

VARGAS: I think both FOX News and CNN are discussing ways to be able
to have a debate A and a debate B. So, I think those processes are being
debated and discussed right now.

Now, what I will say is that the party fortunately has an
embarrassment in riches in terms of the number of serious minded really
qualified candidates that we`re able to field right now. So, we do have
former governors, we`ve got sitting senators, folks that have a serious
voice in policy issues.

Unfortunately, the Democrats – and I have a lot of friends who are
Democrats, it`s unfortunate that they are so limited in the number of
candidates that they`re putting forth. They don`t have a deep or strong
bench and it`s unfortunate. There`s not a lot of enthusiasm behind Hillary

Now, she`s probably going to be the nominee, but it would be great to
have more of a choice.

MADDOW: I appreciate your admission at this point, but the Democrats
don`t have any worries about organizing their debates. It`s going to be
Hillary Clinton and whoever else is running and we`re all going to enjoy it
and there`s no drama. The Republican Party is absolutely on a tight rope
right now with what to do with, as you say, all of these very qualified
candidates. So I appreciate the sort of concern trolling about the
Democrats problems here but the Republican –

VARGAS: What I will tell you, though – honestly, though, it will
come down to the few candidates – and it`s probably going to be a handful
of candidates that can be viable in general elections, that have the
gravitas and qualifications to run and win a presidential election and
raise the $1.5 billion to $2 billion to run against the general. I mean,
that number is much smaller than the 19 or 20 in the field right now.

MADDOW: That`s right. And you have to make it on the stage in order
to make that case. This is going to be fascinating.

Danny Vargas, Republican strategist, really appreciate having you
here tonight. I hope you will come back. It`s nice to talk to you.

VARGAS: My pleasure. Thanks, Rachel.

MADDOW: All right. Thanks.

Much more ahead. Stay with us.


MADDOW: So we`ve been following this oil spill last week in Santa
Barbara, California, this pristine coastal area of California fouled by an
oil spill that in practical terms is much bigger and much worse than it`s
being described in a lot of the press and the headlines about that spill.
We`ve got an update on that spill coming up next. And it is very worrying.

Stay with us.


MADDOW: Nearly seven miles of Los Angeles area beaches were closed
today after a wave of tar balls washed ashore yesterday morning. The
biggest chunks were the size of footballs.

It`s not unusual to find some tar along the beaches there. There are
some natural seeps on the ocean floor. But it`s not usual this much tar.

And the source of these oil tar balls was described today in the
local press as a mystery and it`s being investigated, but there is the
matter of the major oil spill that happened last week on the California
coast near Santa Barbara when the oil pipeline burst and dumped out what
the pipeline company says is about 100,000 gallons of crude.

That leaked oil across 10 square miles of oceans, but that still
happened 100 miles north of where this gunk washed up today in L.A.
There`s also been tar on the beach reported closer to the spill in the town
of Oxnard. Meanwhile, near the pipeline break, the cleanup continues on
the miles of shore line that were nearby to the pipeline break.

And the threat to animals from this spill may not be over. One
researcher tells us today that birds in the wildlife preserve where she
works, near the pipeline burst have – those birds are nesting just a few
feet away from where oil continues to wash in. Those birds are called
western snowy clovers. In that preserve, they`re listed as a threatened
species. Now, she says they`re walking around, quote, “with little black
feet because their feet is black from oil.”

I have to say I continue to be amazed by the scale of what`s happened
here in this Santa Barbara spill. And the scale of the cleanup that not
only has happened already, but that continues to need to happen. And the
contrast between that scale of what happened here and how little attention
to it is being paid by the rest of the country, ignoring this disaster and
that pristine ecological system on the Santa Barbara coast is not going to
make it go away.

That does it for us tonight. We`ll see you again tomorrow.



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