Russian interference “sweeping and systematic.” TRANSCRIPT: 4/19/19, Hardball w/ Chris Matthews.

Ryan Goodman, Madeleine Dean, David Jolly, Christopher Painter, Jill Colvin



ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST:  That does it for me.  I`ll see you Sunday night,

9:00 P.M. Eastern for our Mueller Special.  HARDBALL starts now.


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST:  Will the democrats be the enforcers?  That is

the question.  Let`s play HARDBALL.”


Good evening, I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.  Tonight, the grave

implications of the Special Counsel`s findings are sinking in.  The Mueller

report details behavior unacceptable by any American, let alone the

President.  Fact, Donald Trump and his people endorsed Russia`s successful

effort to attack and subvert the 2016 presidential election.


They did so, according to Mueller, because they expected the campaign would

benefit electorally from information stolen and released through Russian

efforts.  As NBC News points out, the report tells a story of how the

Russians and the Trump campaign pursued a relationship of mutual benefit

during the election campaign and afterward.


Mueller writes a month before the release of the hacked democratic emails,

Trump campaign officials were given a heads up that WikiLeaks would release

information damaging to candidate Clinton.  The report says that from the

outset, the campaign showed interest in WikiLeaks`s release of documents

and welcomed their potential to damage candidate Clinton.


When the emails were released that summer, aides reacted with enthusiasm to

reports of the hacks.  It was then, some witnesses said, that Trump

privately sought information about future WikiLeaks releases.  Most damning

is that by late summer of 2016, the Trump campaign was planning a press

strategy, a communications campaign and messaging based on the possible

release of Clinton emails by WikiLeaks.


In a New York Times editorial or  op-ed today, Ryan Goodman writes to the

Special Counsel, hints at a national security nightmare.  He writes that

the public Mueller report alone provides enough evidence to worry that

American`s own national security interest may not be guiding American

foreign policy.


Ryan Goodman joins me now.  He`s a former Special Counsel at the Department

of Defense, the editor of the blog, Just Security.  Also with me is Maya

Wiley, a former federal prosecutor and Senior Vice President for Social

Justice at the New School.  And, of course, Ken Dilanian is an Intelligence

and National Security Reporter for our own NBC News.  Thank you all.


I want to start with Ryan.  Give me a sense and the biggest picture

possible of the threat posed by this playing ball by the Trump people with

the Russians in the 2016 campaign.



the big threat here is that, indeed, this was a damning indictment of a

certain sort, indictment at a lower case I, because the idea here is that

many members of the Trump campaign were either knowingly working with the

Russians to try to upset the election or they were doing it unwittingly and

were manipulated by the Russians, in which U.S. national security interests

and our democratic process took a back seat.  I think that`s written

throughout the pages of volume one of the Mueller report.  And I think

that`s what`s the most worrisome issue for our own national security.


MATTHEWS:  What do you make of Mueller`s pulling back from saying,

coordinated?  For me, playing ball means you do this, I do that.  It seems

to be a tacit relationship.  Why did they pull back from saying it was even

a tacit arrangement between the two parties, Trumps and the Russians?


GOODMAN:  So I think that part of it might be that certain individuals

might have been acting on their own.  That`s unclear.  Paul Manafort is one

of those examples in which he does some amazing things in terms of his

consorting with a Russian spy.  But at the end of the day, it seems as

though they can`t pinpoint that Paul Manafort is acting at the behest of

the campaign or with the knowledge of Trump.  So I think that might be one

part of it.


I think they were trying to separate it out so that you have agreement –

even tacit agreements can be conspiracy under criminal law.  And then the

second basket is this idea of collusion, which they didn`t actually analyze

all of that here.  And that`s what`s probably in another report where they

put together all of that information for counterintelligence analysis.  But

there is enough in here that we can see what that analysis looks like,

because there`s enough here that shows many different instance of what I

would say goes under the heading of collusion.


MATTHEWS:  High crime and misdemeanors.  High crime.  It seems to me if you

work for a country or work with a country that`s attacking our democratic

process.  That`s a high crime.



the reaction of many Americans, Chris.  You know what?  This report shows

that we`re up to 140 contacts now between Trump associates and Russians

during the campaign.  And as you said, they welcomed the help.  They knew

that the Russians were helping them get elected.


And what`s really interesting is, after they won the election, then the the

report says the Russian government began to swarm the Trump transition with

offers and with plans.  They wanted to lift sanctions.  And the most

interesting example of that was that back channel meeting in the

(INAUDIBLE), which we knew about, but this report really lays it out.


So what ends up coming out of that meeting with Eric Prince and the Head of

the Russians Sovereign Wealth Fund is a two-page reconciliation plan that

goes to Jared Kushner.  And what does Kushner do with it?  He hands it to

Rex Tillerson, the incoming Secretary of State.


So there was a plan to lift sanctions.  And you could argue that the only

reason it didn`t go through is because this became a scandal, the media

pushed back, bureaucracy pushed back.  But, look, Russia played ball with

the Trump campaign and then the Trump transition and Trump administration

looked ready to play ball with Russia.


MATTHEWS:  It could give the wink they wanted.




MATTHEWS:  Maya, I didn`t had you on lately but I do have a big question

for you.  And I`m not interested in intricacies of the law but a bit of

history and parallel here.  Benedict Arnold gave the way to bring down West

Point.  It seems to me that Manafort was telling the Russians at the cigar

bar exactly which states they needed to win, the ones who were closely

contested.  Here is how you could intervene in our election, Pennsylvania,

Wisconsin and Michigan, and Minnesota.  Excuse me, why are we giving

information to the enemy about ehat they are doing to destroy our election? 

How is that different than Benedict Arnold?



can`t actually answer that question in any other way than to say this was

an extremely disturbing part of not just the Mueller report, but we had

indications of this before we got the full report from news reporting.  And

remember what`s happening here.  What – Oleg Derispaska, who is an

oligarch, close to Putin, we all have the news reports and of how the

Kremlin actually uses the oligarchs, how oligarchs, and some of this is in

the Mueller report, take meetings with Putin and understand that they are

being given directives by Putin.  This is one – Deripaska is one of those.


Manafort has a longstanding business relationship with him.  He says in the

Mueller report that he sees this essentially as an opportunity to get back

some of what he feels he is owed by Deripaska.  So he is passing polling

data as well as giving information to Kontantin Kilimnik, who has been

affiliated with Russian intelligence who he has been working with for

years.  At the same time that Konstantin Kilimnik is suggesting what

Manafort himself acknowledges is essentially a backdoor way for Russia to

regain control of Eastern Ukraine, and this is all during the campaign.


I also just want to flash out a few of these other points of contact

between the Trump campaign, because some of them is even after the Trump

campaign knows from a New York Times report, if nothing else, that U.S.

intelligence believes that Russia is trying to infiltrate the campaign. 

That is when Donald Trump comes out publicly on July 27th after learning

that fact and says, Russia, get us the emails.  And then, for the first

time, the Russians start trying to get Hillary Clinton emails.


And then you have Don Jr., who, in August of 2016.  And now, this is after

the campaign has been asked by the FBI to tell them of any contacts with

Russians.  He has exchanges with WikiLeaks that has already been publicized

as passing through what Russia has gotten into.  And he`s re-Tweeting it

and he`s having communications about re-Tweeting this.  That`s all in the

Mueller report and that is not reported to the FBI.  There is no contact

that is reported.


MATTHEWS:  I`m going back to Ken on this.  It seems to me that one person

knows they were coordinating with the Russians, and that`s Manafort.  He

was there giving them stuff.  I mean, I`m sorry, maybe if you give him

another try at it, he might say ten years in prison on this thing because

this report isn`t adequately done yet, it seems to me.


DILANIAN:  Well, you`re right, because what – this is a criminal finding. 

Mueller could not prove a conspiracy.  But as Ryan alluded to, there is a

whole other counterintelligence thing that`s classified that the FBI is

still working on.  This report, Mueller did not really cast judgment on

this behavior.  He didn`t say that this harmed national security.  But you

can bet there are FBI reports that make those judgments (ph).


MATTHEWS:  Yes.  So counterespionage, right?


Now, as the American public begins to grasp the implications of Mueller`s

report itself, the President appears to be changing his tune.  Overnight,

he has gone from claiming total exoneration by the report to claiming the

Mueller report is fabricated and totally untrue among other things. 

However, as The Washington Post pointed, Mueller`s report is singular for

its definitive examination of the events and will not easily be dismissed

by Trump and his aides as fake news.


Now, Trump is threatening to retaliate against the investigators who

brought the truth to light, saying, it is now finally time to turn the

tables and bring justice to some very sick and dangerous people who have

committed very serious crimes, perhaps even spying or treason.


Back to Ryan.  You`re assessment about the President?  Now, he considers

treason turning on him.  State`s evidence, telling truth to prosecutors and

investigators, that`s treason, but what he did was not.


GOODMAN:  It`s pretty amazing.  I mean, in some ways, it`s even more of an

evidence of consciousness of guilt.  And this is kind of a bizarre scorched

earth policy that he is trying to enact against people who cooperated with

the FBI and the Special Counsel.  And it`s nuts.  If anything was somewhat

treasonous in a term that that`s understood by the public, it`s what

Mueller identifies.  And even Steve Bannon has said that that that June 9th

Trump Tower meeting was treasonous and unpatriotic.


And now, that`s one data point compared to a bunch of other datapoints that

are in what is now the authoritative guide of what actually happened in

2016, which is the Mueller report.

MATTHEWS:  Well, the report also suggested there may be more prosecutions

connected to Mueller`s investigation.  The redacted pages index, or

actually appendix D, shows that two investigations remain ongoing, that

Mueller issued 12 criminal referrals to other jurisdictions.  Those are all

in addition to the cases that already have been identified in public



Ken, give us a sense of what`s going to be the results of what`s coming now

with all these referrals.


DILANIAN:  So many of those, we have no idea what they are.  But we do know

that the New York Attorney General is looking at the Trump foundation.  We

know that the Southern District of New York is still looking at that whole

Michael Cohen campaign finance issue, where Trump was implicated in a

felony.  And they`re also investigating individuals in the Trump

organization.  So there are some people close to the President who think

that that`s a more dangerous investigation criminally if they start rooting

around in Trump`s finances.


And then you have Congress, which is not – Adam Schiff, the Chairman of

the House Intelligence Committee, is not really satisfied that Mueller

delved deeply into whether Trump had a financial relationship with Russia

going back years.  So he is going to do that.  e is issuing a subpoena to

Deutsche Bank to see about the loans that that bank made to Trump.  That`s

where this is going.  These investigations have a long way to go.


MATTHEWS:  Let me go back to Maya, because you know what jumped out at me,

I skipped a reference to one of the redacted names.  It could be Roger

Stone.  I don`t know.  I guess it is.  But the question is what about this

whole thing about who was getting the heads up on WikiLeaks?  I mean, we

have been covering this story as almost a profession for two years.  Let`s

be honest.  This has been our occupation.  And we have become very familiar

with these sequence of events, like, all of a sudden, Roger says, you`re

going to get something really tasty in a couple of days.  All of a sudden,

it comes out from WikiLeaks.  And they, say, well, I was just talking

generally.  No, you weren`t.  Where is that one going?


WILEY:  You know, what happens with Roger Stone, we`re going to know,

because there`s going to be a trial, which means that`s going to be public. 

I think it`s really interesting because one of the things that`s going in

the Mueller report is there is a section where he`s talking about the Trump

Tower meeting with Don Jr., Paul Manafort, Jared Kushner, and a Russian

attorney who is close to Putin.


MATTHEWS:  And maybe Ivanka, too?


WILEY:  And maybe Ivanka too.  And this was where Mueller said, I couldn`t

show – it didn`t have sufficient evidence of willfulness of the campaign

violation.  But then immediately following the section where he is talking

about that, it`s blocked out.


And on one hand, you have Michael Cohen, the Southern District of New York

has an ongoing investigation related obviously to the payments of women

through the Trump organization and that will also be, I think, subject of

the New York State Attorney General`s investigation.  But at the same time,

this is in the context of a discussion of the Trump Tower meeting, not a

discussion of Michael Cohen, not a discussion of the Trump organization. 

Maybe that`s one of the dozen investigations that we don`t know about

that`s still indicates campaign finance crimes being investigated.


MATTHEWS:  Look, there`s so much is going on here.  These finger nails are

going to keep growing on this body.


Thank you so much Ryan Goodman, Maya Wiley and Ken Dilanian.


Coming up, Mueller is stuck with Justice Department guidelines that the

President can`t be criminally charged, couldn`t be indicted.  But he drew a

road map, if you will, for the U.S. Congress.  And now, a prominent

democrat running for President is calling for impeachment.


In Trump`s house of lies, Mueller describes how the President lied

repeatedly and ordered those around him to do the same, to keep lying all

around him.  How about Huckabee Sanders and her fish story?


And tonight, one republican senator responded with a blistering statement,

I am sickened.  This is a republican senator.  I am sickened at the extent

and pervasiveness of dishonesty and misdirection by individuals in the

highest office of the land, including the President.


We`ve got much more on that to get to tonight.  Stick with us.




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL.  Robert Mueller didn`t charge the

President with a crime but his report lays out ample evidence, exploring

ten episodes of potential obstruction of justice, providing a road map for

Congress to investigate.


The report makes clear that Congress has the authority to determine whether

the President can be found to have obstructed justice, concluding Congress

has authority to prohibit a president`s corrupt use of his authority in

order to protect the integrity of the administration of justice.


It adds, the conclusion that Congress may apply the obstruction laws to the

President`s corrupt exercise of the powers of office accords with our

constitutional system of checks and balances and the principal that no

person is above the law.


Today, House Judiciary Chairman Jerry Nadler issued a subpoena for

Mueller`s complete report and said, any talk of impeachment is premature.




REP. JERRY NADLER (D), NEW YORK:  I believe he committed obstruction of

justice, yes, but it`s not up to me.  It`s up to –



Judiciary Committee?  You can open impeachment proceedings.


NADLER:  Well, we have to – but we`re not there.  We have to now –

because Barr misled the country, we have to hear from Barr, which we will

on May 2nd, we have to hear from Mueller and ask him a lot of questions. 

We have to hold hearings and hear from other people.




MATTHEWS:  Well, late today. the Justice Department dismissed Nadler`s

subpoena calling it premature, this is a favorite word these days, and

unnecessary.  Well, meanwhile, in a letter to her democratic colleagues,

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said, Congress will not be silent.  She has

scheduled a conference call this Monday with her caucus to talk about the

next steps.


For more, I`m joined by U.S. Congresswoman Madeleine Dean from

Pennsylvania, who serves on the House Judiciary Committee, and David Jolly,

former Republican congressman from Florida.


Both of you.  I want to start with the congresswoman.


It seems to me that the Democrats are kicking the can down the road. 

They`re saying, oh, let`s talk to Barr.  Well, we know he`s not going to

tell the truth.  And then we will talk to Mueller, who has already said in

writing, after two years of putting together his report, everything he has

to say.


What – are you just pushing it off until June?  And then what`s the next

excuse going to be?  Because it seems to me, everybody waited for two years

for this report, in order to give a basis for an impeachment exercise

process, and now nothing`s happening.






Thank you for having me on.  Happy holidays and a blessing Easter to you

and your family. 


I disagree with you. 


MATTHEWS:  Go ahead.


DEAN:  We are not kicking the can down the road.  You have seen the

subpoenas.  You have seen the press releases.  Our committee has issued a

subpoena for the entire Mueller report, unredacted, with all of the

underlying documents. 


So I disagree wholeheartedly.  We believe that the Judiciary has a right to

see the entire report.  We believe Congress has a right to see the entire

report.  And, most importantly, we believe America has a right to the full,

transparent truth of what took place with the Russian interference in our

2016 election and any coordination with the Trump administration and the

Trump campaign, and, much more importantly, volume two of the Mueller

report, obstruction of justice. 


So we are far from kicking the can down the road.  We are digging in and

doing the work that we are required to do. 


MATTHEWS:  Why are people like your majority leader, Steny Hoyer, saying

it`s not worthwhile to do it right now, and Nancy Pelosi saying it`s not OK

because you don`t have Republicans?


It sounds like they`re making partisan political estimates that it wouldn`t

be good for your reelections next year, not what`s good for the republic. 

It sounds like they`re being political. 


They say – they speak in political terms. 


DEAN:  I think this transcends politics whatsoever. 


What we need to do is make sure we get the facts, full facts and evidence

in front of us.  And that means a transparency of this report and this



Let`s remember what Mueller investigated.  He investigated corrupt

conspiracy, criminal conspiracy to work with the Russians to interfere with

our election.  We know that the Russians interfered with the 2016 election

in sweeping and substantive ways, according to Mueller. 


And the second piece of it is, he showed over and over again the attempts

of obstruction of justice.  So, what I would say is, we have a job to do,

get the facts, get the evidence, show the American people the truth, and

then impeachment will be revealed to us one way or another. 


It shouldn`t be off the table.


MATTHEWS:  Do think it`s possible another – I just – I don`t want a



But do you think it`s possible that Congress, the Democratic Caucus in the

House of Representatives, after fighting so far, so hard to win control the

House, so hard to get the subpoena power and the ability to be begin such

procedures, if the Congress, led by the Democrats in the House, does not

act on impeachment, do you think that will go down in history as a good



DEAN:  Well, I think we will go down….


MATTHEWS:  Could it potentially be – a decision to not begin proceedings

on impeachment at all, could it possibly be the right historic move? 


DEAN:  I think that`s – you`re too far down the road. 


I think what will go down in history is that the American people spoke in

the last election cycle and said, we need a sweeping change in this

Congress, we need a Congress that will actually exercise its oversight role

against an administration out of control, shamefully out of control.


Whether it is criminally out of control is yet to be seen, but it is

shamefully, morally out of control.  That`s what`s going to go down in

history.  And the rest will be borne out. 


MATTHEWS:  Can`t argue with that.  Stay there, Congresswoman.


Let me go right now.  Late today, Democratic presidential candidate

Elizabeth Warren had a different response.  She called on Congress now to

started impeachment proceedings in a series of tweets, saying: “The

severity of this misconduct demands that elected officials in both parties

set aside political considerations and do their constitutional duty.”


David, she is for going now, beginning the procedures…




MATTHEWS:  … passing a resolution, doing it. 


JOLLY:  And I agree with Senator Warren.


Chris, I think a lot of voters tonight think that the House Democrats and

particularly Speaker Pelosi keep moving the goalposts, if you will.  The

president of the United States, when he was named in a criminal conspiracy

in SDNY, she said, let`s wait until the Mueller report. 


Now we have them the Mueller report, and now we need to get an unredacted

one and have hearings. 


The truth is, we have a 400-page report, and the House only needs to have

one single hearing.  Have Bob Mueller, Don McGahn, K.T. McFarland, and

Corey Lewandowski testify, and ask them one question.  Is the information

contained in the Mueller report a true and accurate reflection of the fact?


And if they say yes, call for a vote, up or down, on impeachment, because

what their testimony to Mueller suggests and confirms is that Donald trump,

as president of the United States, tried to kill the special counsel`s

investigation into his own actions and his campaign, and then instructed

staff to lie about his obstruction. 


We don`t need more hearings.  The redacted version contains enough to call

for a vote. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, it – I`m going to be honest here.  I think it`s easier

for you, David, to say that because you`re not representing a constituency

of 600,000 people right now.  And the congresswoman is.


I think there`s a lot of hesitancy because of what happened to Bill Clinton

back in `98.  Let`s go back.  Bill Clinton was impeached.  It didn`t do



Your thoughts, Congresswoman?  How does that – how much does that guide

your thinking and judgment now, what happened back in `98? 


DEAN:  I love what Representative Jolly is saying.


But I absolutely believe we have to do our homework.  If you jump and say

on a redacted report that no one has fully read – I mean, we have we have

had the chance to really dig in, and it`s an extremely disturbing read. 


But if you jump ahead and say, OK, we got it, we got impeachment here, I

think that would be foolhardy.  We have our work to do.  We have to reveal

the narrative, the truth to the American public, and then we have the right

to go forward with impeachment. 


Look at what we`re looking at.  We`re looking at a redacted report that has

troubling information about obstruction of justice by this president,

literally asking Don McGahn to fire the special counsel, and you have

Attorney General Barr saying, oh, the president fully cooperated.


Well, that`s not cooperation, when you`re asking your subordinate to fire,

McGahn.  And then you know what he layered on top of that?  He said to

McGahn, OK, you won`t fire him, and now the media has picked up that I have

asked you to fire him?  Would you go out to the media and say, I never

asked you to do that?


Imagine these things.  They are treacherous.  They are wrong.  We all know

that.  They are a moral failing.  But what we have the burden to do, and I

think it`s a responsibility, frankly – I don`t think it`s a problem – it

is a responsibility – is to get the facts and the evidence, lay it out for

the American people. 


And then we will see if impeachment is absolutely on the table, because we

will need the public behind us.  We will need the Senate to take up the

articles of impeachment.  We will need 67 votes. 


MATTHEWS:  Well, my problem so far – David, you can give a last thought



JOLLY:  Sure.


MATTHEWS:  But my problem is, the president said 37 times he can`t

remember.  He was useless as a witness.  His people all lied like you can`t

believe.  Liar, liar, pants on fire, all of them.  So many of them are

liars on the record lying. 


And now the Justice Department, as of tonight, is saying, I`m not going to

give you this – the full unredacted version. 


They have played every game in the world to keep the truth.  And if the

Democrats have to wait for the truth from this administration, hell will

have to freeze over, because they`re not going to give you the truth. 

They`re not going to give you the means to bring them down.  You have got

to make a judgment based on what`s available. 


Your thoughts on that, Congressman? 




JOLLY:  There`s a clear case of obstruction that`s currently available.


And here`s what Democrats truly risk.  In the long winds of history, what

they risk is coming down on the side of Bill Barr.  Consider this.  Bob

Mueller said, here is information I have about obstruction.  And Bill Barr

said, I don`t think it`s enough to convict.


If Democrats suggest we don`t have enough information either, and they give

this a pass, you are giving Bill Clinton a more damning legacy in

presidential history than you are Donald Trump.  And I think Democrats will

regret that. 


MATTHEWS:  Thank you. 


DEAN:  Chris…


MATTHEWS:  Go ahead, Congresswoman.  We have no time, but go ahead.  You

deserve it. 


DEAN:  I have to say, I have spoken to many of my colleagues over the

course of the last 48 hours.  No one believes in the credibility of

Attorney General Barr, no one.


He poured away his credibility in buckets over the last several weeks. 


MATTHEWS:  Well said.


Thank you so much, U.S. Congresswoman Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania and

former U.S. Congressman David Jolly.


Up next:  The Mueller report sheds new light on how Russian trolls were

able to reach and influence millions of Americans in 2016.  They got

through, not the truth, Mr. Barr.  Didn`t attempt to get through.  They got



What`s being done to keep it from happening again in 2020?  The Russians

are at it again. 


We`re back after this. 







Coats came to me and some others.  They said they think it`s Russia. 


I have President Putin.  He just said it`s not Russia.  I will say this.  I

don`t see any reason why it would be.


I have great confidence in my intelligence people, but I will tell you that

President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today. 




MATTHEWS:  So, William Barr flacks for the president, and the president

flacks for Russia. 


Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


That was President Trump last summer denying Russian interference in the

2016 election.  But as “The New York Times”` Mark Mazzetti points out, the

Mueller report definitively states – quote – “Trump was elected with the

help of a foreign power.”


The report details Russia`s extensive social media operation, which reached

tens of millions of Americans.  It also describes WikiLeaks` role in

Russia`s interference campaign, which resulted in continuous negative

headlines for Hillary Clinton in the final month of the election of 2016. 


I`m joined by Christopher Painter, former senior director of the

cybersecurity at the White House, and Frank Figliuzzi, of course, former

assistant director for counterintelligence at the FBI. 


Thank you, Frank.  And thank you, Chris. 


Chris, you start. 


We`re looking ahead now.  What stops the Russians from doing just what they

did in 2016? 




I mean, there are some good things we`re doing.  But that report is just,

as it said, systematic and significant and sweeping efforts by the Russians

to really undermine our elections.  And they`re doing it again.  They`re

still out there. 


It`s not – that report is not history.  That report is what we`re living

now, we`re going to be living in 2020.  And we just haven`t done enough to

prevent that.  We haven`t imposed real costs on Putin and his cronies that

are going to change their behavior. 


MATTHEWS:  Frank, what do you make of this stuff?  I mean, you must think

about this at night, as you go to bed at night, because, next time – we

just got a report that they were messing with a Florida county election



They`re not changing results.  All we need is another Florida disaster like

2000 to kill all hope for a clean election. 



inarguable section of the Mueller report that even the attorney general

could not avoid, it`s the fact that Russia absolutely interfered with our



And people need to understand, Chris, this is a nonpartisan issue.  It

doesn`t matter what party you`re a part of.  You need to understand that we

still have enemies in this world, and that Russia wants very much to sow

discord and chaos, regardless of the party. 


So this wasn`t just about – and people need to understand this.  Their

goal is not just getting a certain candidate into office, but rather to get

us into chaos and not trusting our institutions and our electoral process. 


And if we lose credibility in our elections, in our ability to vote

honestly and accurately, then we have lost democracy.  So imagine this

scenario.  Imagine you go to your usual polling place, you have been going

there for 20 years, they look you up in the roster, and they tell you,

Chris, you`re not here.  You don`t exist anymore here. 


Or they tell you, Chris, your polling place has changed to the other side

of the city tonight.  Now we have chaos in certain key swing states and

precincts, and people don`t vote, and people lose credibility in the



MATTHEWS:  And they know where it`s going to be close too.  They know it`s

Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan, and Minnesota, because they got the

word from Paul Manafort. 


Anyway, Russian media is downplaying the Mueller report as we speak,

claiming it – quote – “had no actual evidence” and calling Russia

interference a myth. 


So, Bill Barr is working for the Russians too now, because he said

attempted efforts, never said in his whole report yesterday, his little

preview, that the Russians did it. 


PAINTER:  If you – if you read the Mueller report, it is clear.  It`s a

compelling narrative.  The Russians did it.


The Russians won.  The Russians really manipulated our system in a way no

one else has been able to in the past.  And that should be a five-alarm

fire warning for the future, that we should be doing everything we can.  We

should have a coordinator in the White House who`s focused on this.  We

should be doing everything we can to protect the ballots in all these

individual states.


And we have been doing some good stuff.  Cyber Command has been doing..


MATTHEWS:  Is this a bipartisan effort to prevent it from happening again? 




PAINTER:  It should be.


MATTHEWS:  Are the Trump people helping?


PAINTER:  It should be a bipartisan effort.  There are some good people in

DHS, from Homeland Security, people at Cyber Command, people Justice. 

That`s all good. 


But they need to do a lot more, Chris.  And the one thing they really need

to do – and this starts at the top.  This is really at the presidential

level.  The president has to call out, he has to condemn this.


Responding this report with a “Game of Thrones” tweet, rather than coming

out and saying…


MATTHEWS:  You know why he doesn`t.


But, Frank, you know why he won`t do that.  And you know why pretty much…




MATTHEWS:  I can presume, I think, why Barr won`t say he did it, the

Russians did it, because it suggests somehow he got help to win the



FIGLIUZZI:  Here`s the dilemma, exactly. 


If the president says, yes, I`m going to believe a portion of this report,

and we have got to take action it, then he runs the risk in his mind of

delegitimizing his entire presidency, because the implication is, the

Russians helped me win.  So we won`t hear word one from him on this. 


What`s most disturbing, Chris, is, we haven`t heard word one on an action

plan from our attorney general, the chief law enforcement officer of the

country.  Haven`t heard anything from him on this yet. 


MATTHEWS:  Did you notice in his little preview yesterday morning, when he

grabbed the country`s attached at 9:30 yesterday morning, he never once

said anything about the report saying the Russians interfered in our



PAINTER:  Yes.  Yes. 


MATTHEWS:  He never said it. 


PAINTER:  No, that was entirely left out. 


And that`s right.  We need to have almost a Marshall Plan to go after this. 

We have to do everything we can. 


And even if you have good people in the government doing good things – and

they are – if you don`t have that leadership at the top, that undercuts

it.  If I`m Putin, I`m looking at what`s going on, and the president`s not

calling me out, I`m going to do it again.  I`m creating a norm, if you

will, that that`s OK.  And I`m going to do it more.


MATTHEWS:  OK, I got to ask you a question, Frank.  You have been doing

great work for this network. 


Why did Rod Rosenstein go along as Sancho Panza in this whole thing?  He

looked so nervous and uncomfortable behind Barr yesterday.  He`s a public

servant.  He`s not a pol.  Why is he doing this? 


FIGLIUZZI:  Oh, boy, you`re asking one of the great questions of this

entire inquiry and the role of Rod Rosenstein and why he didn`t recuse



He`s the guy who justified the firing of Jim Comey.  And now we see him

standing behind the attorney general at the press conference looking kind

of like a deer in the headlights. 




FIGLIUZZI:  I, quite frankly, think he was a fact witness.  I think he

should have been interviewed by Robert Mueller.  And perhaps he`s one of

the people that the Congress will call to testify to get even more detail

out of him. 


But this is a flawed system.  And he should not have been involved in this



MATTHEWS:  Because I say because Bill Barr has used him.  He has used him. 

He put him in a picture with him there.  He puts them up for his

credibility.  He helps his own credibility.  But I don`t think it worked. 


Bill Barr is looking really troubled.  Well, he`s got a troubled reputation

right now.  And, as we all learned in this city and in this life, you get

one reputation, just one.


Christopher Painter, thank you, sir. 


PAINTER:  Thank you. 


MATTHEWS:  Thank you, Frank Figliuzzi, for everything you have done. 


Up next: house of lies.  The Mueller report shines a spotlight on a White

House that just can`t handle the truth.  Well, it certainly can`t deliver



And a quick programming note.  Join me tomorrow night right here on MSNBC. 

From 6:00 to 8:00, we will have a special look for the expert – actually,

I went all the buffs to watch, the people who really want to understand

this thing. 


We will be looking into the contents of the Mueller report and, perhaps

most importantly, something I`m more familiar with, which is the Democrats. 


Are they going to do it?  Are they going to go ahead?  Or are they are

going to say, well, we got to talk to Mueller, we got to talk to

Rosenstein, we got to talk to Barr, and then we got to think about it?  And

then the summer will be on.  It might be too hot to do it by then.


You`re watching HARDBALL.




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


Robert Mueller`s report provides a detailed and disturbing account of how

President Trump, his family and his aides hid, obfuscated and lied to

federal prosecutors, the press and the American public. 


According to “The New York Times” – quote – “The White House that emerges

from more than 400 pages of Mr. Mueller`s report is a hotbed of conflict

infused by a culture of dishonesty, defined by a president who lies to the

public and his own staff, then tries to get his aides to lie for him.”


The report details those repeated lies by the president and the many lies

by his subordinates.  The special counsel`s investigation has already

resulted in the conviction of four Trump associates for lying. 


And, tonight, Republican Senator Mitt Romney responded to the report with

this blistering statement.  This is Romney talking. 


“I am sickened at the extent and pervasiveness of dishonesty and

misdirection by individuals in the highest office of the land, including

the president.”  He is calling the president a liar. 


Some of that dishonesty comes directly from the president`s press

secretary.  What Sanders said about the firing of former FBI Director James

Comey and how she`s now backtracking in shame, that`s next. 


Stick with us. 




MATTHEWS:  Welcome back to HARDBALL. 


One of the bombshells revealed in yesterday`s report by Robert Mueller was

that White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders admitted, admitted to the

special counsel that she made up public statements about the firing of

former FBI Director Comey, telling the special counsel that those

statements were not founded on – I love this word – “anything.”


She said things based on nothing.


Anyway, let`s take a look at what Sanders said about Comey back in 2017 and

what she`s saying today about those inconsistencies. 





countless members of the FBI that are grateful and thankful for the

president`s decision.  And I think that we may have to agree to disagree.


We`re not going to get into a numbers game.  I mean, I have heard from a

large number of individuals that work at the FBI that said that they`re

very happy with the president`s decision. 


GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS:  Why can`t you acknowledge that what you

said was not true?


HUCKABEE SANDERS:  I said that the word I used, countless, and I also said

if you look at what`s in quotations from me, it`s that, and it`s that it

was in the heat of the moment, meaning that it wasn`t a scripted talking



I`m sorry that I wasn`t a robot, like the Democrat Party.




MATTHEWS: “I`m sorry that I`m not a robot.”  That`s a cover for not telling

the truth?


Anyway, we`re joined right now by Jill Colvin, White House reporter at the

Associated Press, and Michael Beschloss, of course, NBC News, presidential



Jill, it seems to me that they have a problem, but yet it worked. Whatever

murkiness there is today, whatever fog machine is up there now is the work

of these lies and the president`s claim that he couldn`t remember 37 times,

which is, in effect, lying. 




I mean, I think that that`s part of why you see the White House as

confident as they are now, despite everything that is so damning in that

report, all of those instances of lying, of the president seemingly not

caring at all, instructing people to come out there, hold news conferences

to lie, to say that accurate news reports are inaccurate. 


But this is a pattern that we have seen, that we know that this White House

does, that this president has done so many times.  As a reporter who sits

in those briefings, it was pretty stunning to see the extent of Sarah

Sanders` dishonesty there. 


But it`s not like we trusted much of what she said from the podium anyway.


MATTHEWS:  You know, from the beginning, my friend, Michael, it`s like

Groucho Marx.  You`re going to believe me or your lying eyes?



that, too.


MATTHEWS:  And I was – well, the same thought.


How can you walk into truth and lie?  Like the president, he lies when you

can see him lying.


BESCHLOSS:  He lies even when he doesn`t need – feel that he needs to. 

It`s almost pathological. 


And it spreads to everyone around him, or many of those around him, as we

have seen in the Mueller report.  I think what Mitt Romney said today was

absolutely right.  The lying you see in this report is sickening. 


And it`s so much against the history of the presidency.  Honesty was at the

center of the personas of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, the

president you served, Jimmy Carter, who said, I will never lie to you. 

That was a promise he kept. 


Remember what Gerald Ford said in the first speech he gave after he was

sworn in after Richard Nixon in 1974.  He was trying to draw a contrast

with Nixon, especially his lying.  And Ford said, “I believe the truth is

the glue that holds government together.”


He was absolutely right.  How can a president ask the public to make

sacrifices or go to war if Americans can`t believe him?


MATTHEWS:  I have always thought that he`d be a great guy to sell your old

beat-up car for you, Michael and Jill…




MATTHEWS:  … because he would oversell it.  This is the greatest car





MATTHEWS:  But you would never buy a car from this guy.  Anyway…


BESCHLOSS:  Who`s ever seen a car like this?  No one. 




MATTHEWS:  Right. 


Well, according to the Mueller report, a major reason the president wasn`t

able to gain control the investigation was that his orders were refused by

his various subordinates and associates.


Trump`s efforts were – quote – “mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely

because the persons who surrounded the president declined to carry out

orders or accede to his requests.”


That list includes Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats, Deputy

Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, former White House counsel Don McGahn.


Jill, he`s out there trashing McGahn now, apparently firing his law firm

for his reelect, because he was the one guy out there that actually said,

I`m not going to cover up.  You tried to get me to fire Comey. 


COLVIN:  Yes, this is one of the most interesting dynamics at play right



You have the president, who is seething.


MATTHEWS:  I mean, you tried to get me to fire Mueller.


Go ahead.


COLVIN:  But he is seething right now, feeling like people who worked for

him were disloyal because they went and spoke to Mueller`s team, when the

president and the White House asked them to speak to Mueller`s team, told

them, go there, tell the truth, tell them everything you know. 


And the president, nonetheless, as we saw from his tweets today, as we have

heard from his private conversations, is furious, especially at McGahn for

spending so much time talking to prosecutors. 


And the irony here is that it`s those people, especially McGahn, who talked

Trump out of doing things that could have gotten him in trouble, more

trouble, for obstruction.


MATTHEWS:  My sense, when I`m – I watch these people like Barr talk on

television, they`re in closed circuit.  Remember that old phrase closed

circuit?  Like, there`s only one person watching in the other room.




MATTHEWS:  That`s the president.


BESCHLOSS:  That`s it.


MATTHEWS:  They`re not addressing truth to the American people.  They`re

saying what the Trump – what Trump wants them to say, which is not true. 


They want him to – he wants them to cover for him, not speak the truth,

every time they speak publicly. 




And Barr and these others know that that`s probably the only way to keep

their job.  And from Trump`s point of view, if he were a leader of any

quality, he would see this, and he would say, gee, there`s a shocking

revelation here, which is, these people who did not tell me what I wanted

to hear and who restrained me from doing bad things, they saved me.  I

might be in a lot more trouble if I didn`t have those people working for



Well, compare his staff nowadays.  He has very few, if any, of those

people.  And the result is that it – what may happen is that, having

gotten through the Mueller report – and he may think that this is a great

victory – if he does think that, I think he`s wrong – but if he thinks

that, he may feel licensed and he may feel even more emboldened to get rid

of people who might conceivably tell him to – not to do something he wants

to do. 


MATTHEWS:  Jill, when you call people on background, when you talk to

people from the booth or whatever over there at the White House, do you

sort of calibrate, well, this person is good for about 70 percent of the

truth, this person is good for about 90 percent, this person is good for

like 10?


COLVIN:  Yes, I mean, it`s…


MATTHEWS:  How do you calibrate the sources?


COLVIN:  It`s definitely gotten better.  Especially at the beginning, we

had this really toxic environment, where there were these different



And you always, in order to kind of get something I would feel comfortable

printing, had to make sure that you spoke to someone from this faction and

the other faction, and if they were telling you the same thing, then maybe,

hopefully, that was the best truth you were going to get at that day. 


But it`s really difficult when people – like – we just had the Sarah

example, but all of the other people here who are being ordered by the

president to go out there and lie to reporters, a president who says…


MATTHEWS:  Even on background.


COLVIN:  Even on background.




COLVIN:  A president who says, this is all fake news. 


MATTHEWS:  Must be an interesting job. 


Thank you, Jill Colvin from the Associated – the great Associated Press. 

And we rely on that more than we admit.  But I admit it.


Anyway, Michael Beschloss, a great historian, and great to have as



BESCHLOSS:  Thank you.  Thank you.  You too.


MATTHEWS:  Up next:  Some call it a witch-hunt, but what if Hillary Clinton

had been the one that committed the litany of horrors that are detailed in

the Mueller report?  Think about that, you guys on barstools now loving

your high-fives right now.


Think about if every single thing that Trump did, Hillary did, where would

she be right now? 


We`re back in a minute. 




MATTHEWS:  A word tonight to those Trump fans out there high-fiving each



Say what you want about this whole two-year investigation being a witch-

hunt.  You can enjoy your night of fun and foolery.  But give those who

supported the investigation this and only this. 


If Hillary Clinton had won the 2016 election, and it had come out

afterwards that the Russians had done the same things to help her, the

pushing of anti-Trump messaging on social media, the hacking into the other

side`s e-mails, if it had come out that the Hillary people had made use of

that Russian help, and had attended meetings to get more of it, if it had

come out that Hillary had fired the Republican FBI director because he was

looking into all this, if it had got out that she had asked both her White

House lawyer and her campaign manager to push the attorney general out of

his job because he wasn`t protecting her, if all this litany of horrors had

come out, can you honestly say you would not have demanded her removal from

the Oval Office?


You can go back to your partying now, but let`s not hear any more about

this being a witch-hunt.


That`s HARDBALL for now.  Thank you. 


And happy Passover and happy Easter.


“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.






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