Trump calls for immediate deportation. TRANSCRIPT: 6/25/2018, Hardball with Chris Matthews

Leon Fresco, Pramila Jayapal, M.J. Hegar

Date: June 25, 2018
Guest: Leon Fresco, Pramila Jayapal, M.J. Hegar

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: Trump went offense. Let`s play HARDBALL.

Well, Donald Trump has started this week driving his political bayonet in
hard. No more the divider of children from their parents, he now poses as
Horatio at the gate, the lone American ready to defend our border. No more
he said, well, those crossing the border get a hearing. Those seeking
asylum will be thrown back like others. The constitution be damned, its
Trump law or no law. And now it`s a human wall he is throwing up along the
border. Anyone who gets through it will be thrown back across into Mexico,
no matter where they came from.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

Having spent most of last week on defense, President Trump is now back on
offense, pushing an even nastier line on immigration. Over the weekend,
President Trump said with no clear evidence that the country`s immigration
policy is quote “laughed at all over the world,” saying quote “we cannot
allow these people to invade our country. Invade.”

Trump demand that those believed to have entered the country without
documents be deported immediately and without a hearing. And today refused
to back down, placing responsibility, of course, on the Democrats.


people come in illegally, they have to go out. And a nice simple system
that works.


MATTHEWS: Sarah Huckabee Sanders drove that message home today.


very clear that they don`t want to work with the President, that they don`t
want to fix our immigration system, that they`d rather have open borders
and rampant crime than work with the President to create solutions.


MATTHEWS: Open borders and rampant crime. That`s the message. While
offering no legislative solution, the President is pushing the new harder
line seeing illegal immigration as a wing political issue for him.

In response to the President`s comments, Michigan congressman Justin Amash,
a tea party libertarian tweeted this portion of the 14th amendment of the

Quote “no person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due
process of law. The 14th amendment goes on the say that no person in the
United States shall be denied within its jurisdiction the equal protection
of the laws.”

Well, the White House wasn`t able to say how or when the new policy would
be put in force. It`s unclear how this squares, by the way, with the
announcement late today by the head of U.S. customs and border protection
of a temporary halt to the criminal prosecution of adults who cross the
border illegally with children.

Over the weekend, the department of homeland security announce that they
would had a process in place to help, by the way, to reunify families that
had been separated by the Trump policy. According to the department`s
numbers, by the way, roughly 500 children have been reunited with their
parents. But those were children that had not been actually shipped to
shelters. Nearly 2,000 children remain scattered across the country.

For more I`m joined by Democratic congressman from Pramila Jayapal from
Washington State, Robert Costa, national political reporter for “the
Washington Post” and an MSNBC political analyst and Leon Fresco, former
deputy assistant attorney general for the office of immigration litigation,
and also Dave Jolly down in a Windstorm somewhere in Florida, former
Republican congressman from that state. Thank you.

I want to go to Robert costa, just because you are a good Trump reader.
Why did he go from being the guy who apologized basically for dividing
children from their parents in an about-face last week to a new about-face
where he is getting even nastier?

calendar. Look at the states. We are a few months out before the midterm
elections. Republicans in Congress, some of them want to focus on the tax
law, but over at Pennsylvania avenue, immigration, immigration,
immigration. This is the issue that stokes the base. This is the issue
people inside of the White House think can stop a democratic wave.

MATTHEWS: Do they believe it`s enough?

COSTA: It could be enough. You look at his support among Republicans,
it`s 90 percent in some polls. So this is what the President says his base
has to come out. They are not going to come out just because of Paul
Ryan`s tax law.

MATTHEWS: A little quibble I have, I understand the political thrust of
it. I call it a bayonet thrust. But the question is how do you do this
when the constitution so clearly gives rights to people in this country,
whether citizen, documented or not, you have rights under the constitution
to due process, to a hearing?

COSTA: And we saw this with this administration during the travel ban, an
administration that knows it will likely face court challenges for the
President`s statements, but nevertheless moves forward.

MATTHEWS: Congressman, how do you read the fact that Trump is going on
offense as I said this week after being on defense last week?

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D), WASHINGTON: I think that this has always been
his plan. Use immigration, use immigrants to talk about invasion,
infestation, get people scared. They are a great dividing line for his

But I think he`s misplaying this. I think there are many people across
this country, and I`ve had a lot of Republicans calling my office because
we have been out front on the issue of children being separated, put in
cages, parents who are escaping terrible situations, I think he is
misreading it.

Republicans are calling me and saying I don`t agree with you on some other
things, but I do agree with you on this. And I don`t think that once he
starts talking about eliminating due process, I think every American is
going to have to start thinking about who is next. You know, first they
came for the trade unionists and I didn`t stand up.

MATTHEWS: You know, I don`t hear Republicans saying that. I don`t hear
them. Ninety percent of the Republican Party is behind this President down
the line. I don`t hear Republican office holders facing reelection saying
it`s wrong to deny a hearing to people facing deportation at the border.

JAYAPAL: That`s right, Chris. I don`t think that the Republicans in
Congress are saying this. I wish they were. But I do think Republicans
across the country are saying this. And will continue to say this if he
takes these extreme positions. I`m not sure that you see it all reflected
in the polls. But I do think that this is a terrifying moment where he is
talking about things like denaturalization.

MATTHEWS: Yes, I know.

JAYAPAL: He is talking about things like, you know, eliminating due
process. These are the hallmarks of a dictator. And I think the American
people are going to start to really look at this and say this is insanity.
This is really dangerous for our country.

MATTHEWS: Dave, do you agree with that? Congressman Jolly, you accept the
fact that this is a losing issue in the Republican Party for President
within the party?

actually, I think it`s a winning issue. I think it is – we are looking at
the electoral reality that there are no crossover votes going into this
election. If they are, they are trending more Democrat.

So what Trump and the Republicans have to do is they have to energize their
base. And fear energizes far greater than contentment does. Robert is
exactly right. This is about exciting the base with fear and division.
But we also have to be very, very knowledgeable today that we are looking
at moments of fear and division, rhetoric, if you will, trending towards
hatred. And that is a difficult conversation to grapple with.

But make no mistake, Donald Trump is energizing his base because the tax
bill has not worked and there are no legislative accomplishments between
now and November.

MATTHEWS: I agree. You know, I heard Sarah Huckabee Sanders make the
point that President wanted – he obviously tells her what he wants her to
say. I mean, she gets the message. And the message for her is Democrats
are for open borders and they don`t care about crime. I think we are going
to hear those two messages juxtaposed, put right next to each other. Think
crime when you think immigration.

JOLLY: Sure.

MATTHEWS: Open borders when you think Democrats. And it seems to me that
he is defining the Democrats` position his way. It`s either my sort of
crude way we admit, and maybe even unconstitutional way, as opposed to open
borders and crime.

JOLLY: Sure.

MATTHEWS: And they think is the message that the congressman just said we
are going the hear from now to November.

IMMIGRATION LITIGATION: Absolutely, Chris. That`s why it`s incumbent on
Democrats to not just about why this policy is immoral, but why it`s
unnecessary. We have to as Democrats provide alternatives of how we would
be able to secure the border.

And I think one of the messages that is being lost here is look, President
Trump, a lot of the stuff that you`re asking for was in the 2013 Senate
immigration bill but it comes as an entire package. You can`t have only
Trump`s version of comprehensive immigration reform. You also have to
solve the problem of the people here who aren`t leaving anyway, and then
you can get border security. You can get –

MATTHEWS: What do you say to that congresswoman Jayapal? What do you say
about the fact, the Democrats need to be defining themselves or Trump can`t
do it? If he says you are the party of open borders, I think you lose. If
he says you are the party of crime, you obviously lose. How do you
redefine the party position to something more refined than that?

JAYAPAL: Look, I think we have to go back to core values. We have to talk
about what America has always been in the world. We have to talk about
refugees, asylees. And yes, as Leon said, and I was on the outside, not in
Congress but working on that bill from the outside. The 2013 bill, 68
bipartisan votes. John Boehner wouldn`t bring it up for a vote in the
floor of the House.

I think we have a lot of, you know, evidence to show that we have done –
actually, we have put more into the border since 2013 than was in the 2013
bill, so –. But the problem is that Trump will win with his minority
base. I think he also incites our base to get out because people see how
dangerous this is.

MATTHEWS: How did he with win in 2016? He won with this in 2016. He won
the election.

JAYAPAL: He did.

MATTHEWS: He is President. And Hillary Clinton is not because of this
issue, I believe.

JAYAPAL: No, you are right, Chris. But what we didn`t have in 2016 is
people believing that he would win. People stayed away.


JAYAPAL: And this time I think that is not the case. I think you are
seeing this in state legislative races across the country. You look at
Missouri, the state of Missouri. The state of Wisconsin, Democrats winning
in state legislative districts. And I get that they are not congressional
districts, I get that. But these are incredible wins by 20, 25 points over
the challenger, Republican challenger in districts that Trump won by 10,
15, 20.

So I think he has some dangerous – this is dangerous, just in terms who
have we are. And I think it`s also dangerous in terms of politics.

MATTHEWS: Well, Leon, I want to tell you something. And David, you know,
the congresswoman can answer this as well when you get – her turn. It
seems to me that Al Gore once said, and he lost an election, but he got the
most popular votes like Hillary Clinton. But he lost the Electoral College
vote. A very tricky decision by the Supreme Court, I must day. But he
once said if you don`t define yourself in politics, the other side will.


MATTHEWS: And I think Trump is defining the Democrats now because they
haven`t mentioned that very fine bipartisan bill since 2013. They haven`t
talked about their approach to border enforcement. They have let the other
guy talk about it. It`s hurting them.

FRESCO: Correct. The Democrats need to say you can have everything you
want immediately and when those things are implemented, then we can have
our part of comprehensive reform. But it has to be in the same bill. He
is the man who makes the art of the deal. Bring people together and get
that deal done.

MATTHEWS: Robert, Trump is very good at defining Democrats. And Maxine
Waters is helping, the person who try out of her restaurant the other day.
I love Robert de Niro. He did it too. They are all playing the Trump
game. They are making him look like the victim, which he loves.

COSTA: And look what the President tweeted about Congresswoman Waters
today. He said she is the face of the party. Yet you had minority leader
Pelosi and leader Schumer in the senate, both come out and say this kind of
heated rhetoric has to stop.

MATTHEWS: And they basically said to stop to Congresswoman Maxine Waters -

COSTA: The Democratic leaders, they want talk about the GOP tax law. They
want to talk about the President`s position on trade. They want to talk
about things that aren`t just back and forth on twitter.

MATTHEWS: Let me go back to David – Congressman Jolly on this. You are a
Republican at least still in name. I think you are rhino at this point,
but let me ask you, and nothing wrong with that. But let me ask you about
this politics, how Trump has (INAUDIBLE).

Well, get this. Trump has an amazing ability. He get this, get the other
side, get the mainstream press to jump all over them, establish that as the
so-called liberal line and then he runs as the only line that takes crime
seriously, the only side that takes illegal immigration seriously and
leaves the Democrats looking like weirdoes (ph), like don`t they care at
all? And that`s the way he plays them.

JOLLY: So, look, if I would give way leeway to Democrats here, it would be
this. Donald Trump is defining Donald Trump for Republican voters. He
doesn`t care about Democratic voters. This is the defining moment for each

MATTHEWS: How about the middle?

JOLLY: Right. Well, listen. Well, listen. But much like when we saw the
Syrian refugee crisis, right? And that was an area where there was no
rationality for Republicans coming out against Syrian refugees, but it was
effective politically. And they used to it mobilize their base.

Democrats are right on this issue about family separation. They are right
on the issue of everything that`s happened at the border, but they need to
use to it energize their base. They are not going win Trump voters on
this. As you energize your base, you can win the suburban mom, those
suburban communities we are seeing in special elections. That is the gray
area where Democrats (AUDIO CUT).

Not oppose Trump, but speak to the values as the congresswoman was saying,
speak to the party`s values to unite families, speak to your base to unite
them and energize them to create nor democratic voters than Republicans in

MATTHEWS: No, I think the values issue works. I go back to the
congresswoman Jayapal.

Congresswoman, tell me how you – I like the way you went back to the
really good bipartisan bill the Democrats did support, and a dozen
Republican senators did and that chicken Mr. Boehner refused to bring up
the house. They don`t want comprehensive reform. They are afraid of it.
I like the way you are shaking your head. Just say a few more about where
Democrats should be positioning themselves on immigration.

JAYAPAL: Well, I think it`s got to be about the values. I think it`s got
to be about the danger that we have to the future of our country. And I
think we can say we have lots of bipartisan bills. We have the 2013 bill.
We have the Hurd Aguilar bill around dreamers. We have numerous bipartisan
bills that Republicans refuse to bring to the floor. Why? Because it
serve theirs political interests to continue to target immigrants.

If they solved the immigration problem, who would they blame? And I`ll
tell you, I don`t think we win by saying look, we can be tougher on border
security than you. Obama tried that he actually tried that, and it didn`t
work so well. Well did put a bunch of border security in there. And I
remember John McCain sat the time saying this is ridiculous how much border
security we have in here. But if we are going get comprehensive reform
then, OK, we will do it. That was a Republican.

So I think we have to go back to our values. I think we win on children.
I think we win on family separation. And I actually think we win on due
process and fairness as well and the constitution. But we have got to do
it from a place of deep grounding in who we are as a country.

MATTHEWS: Well, throw in the one more issue throw in on top of yours,
congressman. Well said by the way. It is like throw in stop the
exploitation of illegal labor. Because that is exactly what Republicans
are all for. They love the cheapest labor, the most scared labor, because
the most desperate people in this country who are operating below when
nobody is watching, off the books, that is where their money comes from.

Thank you congresswoman Jayapal of Washington State, Robert Costa as
always, Leon Fresco and former congressman Dave Jolly.

Coming up, President Trump attacks what he calls the filthy restaurant that
turned away White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders this
weekend. And once again, Trump has shown he is more than willing to
villainize his opponents. His mode (ph) seems to be, if you want to a
crowd, start a fight.

Plus, she is the Democrat behind the political ad that everyone is talking
about. We will introduce you to the air force combat veteran and mom who
is betting she can win in ruby red, Texas.

And exclusive new reporting from NBC News, President Trump appears to have
turned on defense secretary Mattis. Mad dog Mattis is bother making Trump
mad. The HARDBALL round table weighs in on that.

Plus Trump`s latest cultural fight. This time he is going after
nonpolitical Jimmy Fallon, nonpolitical Jimmy Fallon.

Finally, let me finish with Trump watch. You won`t like it.

This is HARDBALL where the action is.


MATTHEWS: Remember when candidate Trump said he`d be bringing jobs back to
the U.S.? Well, Milwaukee-based Harley-Davidson, a great brand name, one
of the first companies President Trump pledged to help now says it`s
shifting some of its production overseas in response to Trump`s trade war.
The EU has increased tariffs on Harleys by 25 percent in response to
Trump`s tariffs on EU exports. That`s expected to cause Harley-Davidson
between $30 million and $45 million this year.

Harley says shifting some production out of the U.S. is the only
sustainable option open to them now.

Well, Trump responded late today saying he is surprised that Harley-
Davidson, of all companies would be the first to wave what he called the
white flag.

Quote “I fought hard for them and ultimately they will not pay tariffs
selling into the EU. He added “taxes are just a Harley excuse. Be

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Despite provoking a new outrage at every turn now, President Trump
continues to receive steadfast support from Republican voters.

As Jeremy Peters reports in “The New York Times” this weekend, the more
vocal Trump`s critics become, the more his party is inclined to support

He writes that: “Republican voters repeatedly described an instinctive
protective response to the president. Bad headlines about Mr. Trump only
galvanizes them further. Asked about the president`s critics, one Trump
supporter said, `It makes me angry at them, which causes me to want to
defend him to them more.`”

According to the latest polling from Gallup, the president`s overall
approval rating stands at just 41 percent overall. However, virtually nine
out of 10 Republicans say they approve the job he is doing. Nine out of

That polarization is no doubt fueled by the president, who has been quick
to villainize the people he disagrees with. His leadership style also
serves a strategic purpose, forcing voters to choose whether they`re with
him or with his critics, who they don`t like. That may explain why he goes
out of his way to bait his opponents with such divisive rhetoric.

Let`s watch a few examples.


these people are. These aren`t people. These are animals.

He`s a tool of Chuck Schumer and, of course, the MS-13 lover Nancy Pelosi.


TRUMP: Wouldn`t you love to see one of these NFL owners when somebody
disrespects our flag to just, get that son of a bitch off the field right
now, out, he is fired?


TRUMP: You have to stand proudly for the national anthem, or you shouldn`t
be playing. You shouldn`t be there. Maybe you shouldn`t be in the

So, we have a single protester. He`s going home to his mom. Say hello to

I call the fake news the enemy of the people, and they are. They are the
enemy of the people.


MATTHEWS: I`m joined right now by two MSNBC contributors, Ruth Marcus,
deputy page editorial of “The Washington Post,” and Jeremy Peters, who
covers politics for “The Times.”

Your piece is great this weekend.


MATTHEWS: Because I think it`s Trump`s way of forcing everybody to their
tribal base. You know, I think – I`m just generalizing here, just
guessing – but I guess there are a lot of different African-Americans who
had a different view on people taking a knee every game.

They may said, oh, you made your point. And there are a lot of white
people who said, they have a point to make. Let them make it. But he says
no, divide by race. Enough of this they nebulously, they might be right, I
may be wrong on this one. Forget all that. Go back to your tribal
stations and fight.

That`s what Trump does on every issue.

PETERS: Yes. That`s exactly right. He has tribalized our politics more
than any other leader has in a generation.


MATTHEWS: … were tribalized.

RUTH MARCUS, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: They were tribalized before.

MATTHEWS: I agree. I agree.


MATTHEWS: I made that point.


PETERS: Well, he`s – I mean, what Trump has done and also what he has
used to great effect is this notion that there is an unhinged, radical,
violent left that is almost reminiscent of the Vietnam era war – war
protesters that Nixon went after.


MATTHEWS: Long hairs.

PETERS: Love it or leave it. Right?

MATTHEWS: Yes, the long hairs.

PETERS: And Trump understands by making those people the focus of his
criticism, he can portray them as people that they will stop at nothing to
silence me, to silence your voice and to take away your vote and impeach


MATTHEWS: I think he makes all moderate and regular people who aren`t
conservatives, makes them real lefties. Like, I don`t think everybody is
for open borders. Half of Latin America would probably like to live in the
United States. Most people would like to live here.

PETERS: Right.

MATTHEWS: You have to have some kind of regulation of the border. But he
portrays the Democrats as loosey-goosey. Flower children. Come on in.

And then also the Democrats don`t care about crime. They do. A lot of
Democrats live in urban neighborhoods, where they`d like to have less



MARCUS: Well, Nancy Pelosi is not an MS-13 lover.

MATTHEWS: Where did he get that from?

MARCUS: I guess he got it from Mike Huckabee. Did you see that tweet over
the weekend?



MATTHEWS: What Jeremy`s idea? He turns every Democrat into a hard lefty.
Everybody is Maxine Waters from South Central.

I don`t know if she is a hard lefty or not, but she is certainly a liberal,
a progressive. But he makes everybody into the enemy.

PETERS: Well, Maxine Waters played right into Trump`s hands. The White
House loves it.

Every time there is an episode, like Maxine Waters, who came about close to
inciting violence as any member of Congress I have ever seen, and every
time Sarah Huckabee Sanders gets kicked out of a restaurant, guess what?
The White House loves it. It plays into their message of this crazed,
lunatic left fringe, and then they use that to discredit the whole
Republican Party.

And a lot of Republican voters who aren`t necessarily pro-Trump buy that.

MATTHEWS: Let`s show what the congresswoman said there.

There are also signs that some on the left are embracing the very kind of
incivility that they criticize in the president. They`re doing what he is

White House Press Secretary Sarah Sanders said over the weekend that she
was asked to leave a restaurant because she worked for Donald Trump.

She tweeted: “Last night, I was told by the owner of the Red Hen” – it`s a
rescue – “in Lexington, Virginia” – that`s not far from here – “to leave
because I work for the president, and I politely left. Her actions say far
more about her than about me.”

In reaction, the president lashed out today, saying that: “The Red Hen
restaurant should focus more on cleaning its filthy canopies, doors, and
windows. Badly needs a paint job, rather than refusing to serve a fine
person like Sarah Huckabee Sanders. I always had a rule. If a restaurant
is dirty on the outside, it`s dirty on the inside.”

This is pure Trump.


MATTHEWS: On Saturday, Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters, I
mentioned, from L.A. sided with that restaurant owner and called on
Democrats to confront members of the Trump administration in a public
place. Here is the congresswoman.


REP. MAXINE WATERS (D), CALIFORNIA: And if you see anybody from that
Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you
get out and you create a crowd, and you push back on them, and you tell
them they`re not welcome anymore, anywhere.



MATTHEWS: Anyway, those comments earned her a sharp rebuke from the
president, who said today: “Congresswoman Maxine Waters, an extraordinarily
low I.Q. person, has become, together with Nancy Pelosi, the face of the
Democrat Party. She has just called for harm to supporters of which there
are many of the make America great movement. Be careful what you wish for,


Congresswoman Waters has since clarified her statement, saying she never
called for violence, only peaceful protest.

What do you make of all of this? I think Trump is winning this little

MARCUS: Yes, with some help from…

MATTHEWS: Because he has brought people down to his level effectively.

MARCUS: Yes, indeed.

Now, I understand Trump and the way he talks about everything – that we
talked about it earlier – can make you crazy. But Michelle Obama was –
could make everybody crazy. Michelle Obama was right when she said, when
they go low, we go high.

MATTHEWS: That didn`t work for Hillary.

MARCUS: Now it`s, when they go low, we`re going crazy.

MATTHEWS: Did it work for Hillary?

MARCUS: And for exactly the reasons that Jeremy…

MATTHEWS: Did it work for Hillary? She said the same thing.


PETERS: No, no. So there is a real debate going on in the Democratic
Party right now about whether or not to attack Trump using Trump`s rules.

It`s a real discussion, because they make that exact same point, Chris.


MATTHEWS: Are the leaders like Pelosi, who knows her politics, is she
saying hold back?


MARCUS: They`re distancing themselves from the Maxine Waters of the world,
because it`s not – it is not helpful.

Look, there is nobody who – people who are definitely attached to Trump,
the true believers, are not going to get disattached from him.

But if you`re telling other people who may have been Trump voters or might
be flirting with Trump that they`re bigots and racists and terrible people
and shouldn`t be served in restaurants, it`s like when you criticize a
friend, when you criticize somebody in your family, you have this
instinctive reaction to want to sort of rally with them.

It`s just not smart politics. It`s not smart human relations.


MATTHEWS: But he does troll. He does incite.


PETERS: Of course he does.

MATTHEWS: He tries to bring them out.

PETERS: He wants this to happen. He wants Maxine Waters to go out there
and say crazy things.

MATTHEWS: Well, it`s a tough challenge. I think we`re going to be
debating which way to go.

Do you go with hard, nasty resistance, or you go will, I will go higher
when you go lower, which didn`t work last time?

Anyway, Ruth Marcus, good, insightful thinking here. Jeremy, great
reporting on that. We love the front page of “The New York Times” and “The


MATTHEWS: Up next: A Democratic congressional candidate in Texas dropped
a political ad that some are calling the most effective campaign ad in the
history of the Lone Star State.

It`s a Democratic woman, a combat veteran. That candidate joins us next.

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

A Texas Democrat trying to unseat an eight-term Tea Party Republican in
Texas has released one of the best political ads of this year.

M.J. Hegar served three tours in Afghanistan as an Air Force pilot and was
wounded during a rescue mission in 2009. She later sued the Pentagon over
its ban on women in combat. Well, the three-and-a-half Web video has
already been viewed two million times on YouTube.

Let`s watch a bit of it.


rescued us from the wreckage. I strapped myself to the skids and returned
fire on the Taliban while we flew to safety.

That got me a Purple Heart, and I became the second woman ever awarded the
Distinguished Flying Cross with Valor. But, after that, the door closed.

Injured and unable to fly, I was barred from my next career choice because
I was a woman. So, I came home. I worked in health care and business. I
got married and started my family.

Wait. Barred because I was a woman? That`s ridiculous.

So I sued the Pentagon, but not just than job, about the ban on women
serving in all ground combat jobs. And I went to D.C. to lobby Congress.
But door after door was slammed in my face.

Well, eventually…

direct ground combat exclusion rule for women.

HEGAR: … we won. And that opened the door for hundreds of thousands of
women to compete for elite ground combat jobs, a major victory for our

Hold on. Back up a minute. Not one of his donors? That`s not how this is
supposed to work.

One of those closed doors was my congressman, Tea Party Republican John
Carter. Apparently, being his constituent and a veteran wasn`t enough to
get a meeting. I guess I also needed to be a donor.

So now I`m running against him, taking on a system that cares more about
campaign donors and political parties than protecting our country.

Congressman Carter hasn`t had a tough race his entire career. So we will
show him tough. Then we will show him the door.



A spokesperson for John Carter`s campaign told HARDBALL: “Hegar`s assertion
is absolutely untrue. John Carter is a – is respected because of his
responsiveness to his constituents.”

I`m joined by her, the Democratic candidate, M.J. Hegar.

Thank you. I was going to call you congresswoman, but I will wait for

Let me – tell me about this thing with Carter. Did you actually go his
congressional office and were refused help with your efforts to open the
door to women in combat?

HEGAR: I did. We called. We e-mailed. We knocked on doors.

It was actually a joint effort of dozens of women who had served in ground
combat, without the acknowledgment that it was ground combat. And some
representatives from both sides of the aisle and staffers were very
receptive. Mine was not.

And I thought at first it was because he disagreed with me. But it comes
to find out – I did some research – and he is just not very responsive to
constituents, period. He hasn`t had a town hall in five years, for

MATTHEWS: Well, how – why do you think this thing has gone viral?

Most political ads are like most political ads. This one, I`m little bit
wary, but it was dynamite. I loved the fact the way the camera moved. It
all seemed to be like one of those continued shots. It looked like it was
all done together, like “Raging Bull,” if you will, the De Niro movie,
where everything seemed to happen at the same time.

It wasn`t cut and edited. But it really seemed to make a point about women
and their rights and patriotism, and really what a job a congressperson is,
which is to answer that damn door.

HEGAR: Yes, I think it`s been very well received for a couple reasons.
First, because it was really well done.

But, also, I think it strikes a chord within our country, with people on
both sides of the aisle, honestly. A lot of people feel like their
representatives are absent and that their voices aren`t being heard. A lot
of people feel like there`s not enough regular people who live down the
street from them representing us in D.C.

We need our elected officials to look more representative of our
population, and I`m working on that.

MATTHEWS: Where can you work with Trump? Is there a place where you can
find something he might be working on in the right direction or could be
moved in that right direction by you and your colleagues?

HEGAR: I have great respect for the Constitution and our democracy, and I
respect the fact that he was elected our president.

I respect the fact that not everybody in the country agrees with me and my
values. I think that one of the reasons I`m so excited to see a wave of
veterans running for office on both sides is because we`re used to working
with people we disagree with, strategically, tactically.

We`re used to putting the mission first and understanding that the
important thing is to put people and the security of our country over
politics and partisan.

So, you know, I think that one of the things I`m doing this for is to go
there and try to put an end to some of the toxic hyperpartisanship.


HEGAR: So, while I might be…

MATTHEWS: So where are you politically? How would you describe your –
I`m sort of center-left, a little bit left-of-center. I think everybody
knows. I have been on the air for 25 years. People know what I am.

Where are you?

HEGAR: I`m definitely a Democrat, but I am a pragmatist.

I think that I have been very effective fighting in D.C. for my values and
our values, but doing it in a way that`s not so conflict-ridden and so

For example, when I went to D.C., I would talk to people on the left about
women`s rights and the Constitution, but I would talk to the right about
military effectiveness and retention and security and the fact that the
Joint Chiefs all unanimously agreed that this policy was bad for the

We need more people in D.C. who can do that, who can put their ego aside
and not try to convince people of their reasons why you should agree with
them, but find the reasons inside them why they should agree with you.

MATTHEWS: You`re great. You`re great. I mean it. You`re great.

Thank you for coming on. Thank you.

HEGAR: Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me.

MATTHEWS: M.J. Hegar, who has run a great ad. And it was great here,
right here, to meet her for the first time.

I hope she does well in a very difficult race. It`s Texas. It`s red. She
is running against a long-term incumbent. I think she is going to get this
guy off his butt, at least.

Democratic congressional candidate in Texas, thank you.

Up next: With conflicts simmering around the world and a nuclear standoff
with North Korea just barely on hold, insiders say Defense Secretary James
Mattis has fallen out of favor President Trump. He is not popular with the
president anymore. What`s that about? We will ask our Roundtable to weigh
in on that one.

Plus: Trump`s cultural crusade. Do you believe he is going after Jimmy
Fallon? Talk about the least political of all the late-night guys, the
least political.

Oh, you shouldn`t have done that. You shouldn`t have done that.

You`re watching HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

NBC News is reporting now that Defense Secretary James Mattis was, quote,
out of the loop on major White House decisions, including President Trump`s
decision to withdraw from the Iran deal, his promise to North Korean Leader
Kim Jong-un that the U.S. would halt military exercises with South Korea,
and last week`s announcement creating something called a space force as a
sixth branch of the military.

NBC News reports the president, quote, has cooled on Mattis, in part
because he has come to believe that his defense secretary looks down on him
and slow walks his policy directives.

According to NBC News again, the dynamic was exacerbated by Trump`s
announcement in March that he had chosen John Bolton as national security
adviser, a move Mattis opposed. Let`s in bring in tonight`s roundtable.

Shermichael Singleton sitting next to me is Republican political
consultant, Carol Lee is a reporter for NBC News, and author of that
reporting on James Mattis, and Chris Lu served as White House cabinet
secretary during the Obama administration and is a senior fellow at UVA`s
Miller`s – well, good for you.


MATTHEWS: Both are very – I`m envious of both jobs.

Let me go to Carol.

I`ve sensed a silence from Mattis, Mad Dog Mattis. He has not been much of
a mad dog lately. And he did, I think, his positions make more sense than

CAROL LEE, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, they don`t really agree on
anything. If you look at, even going back to – during the campaign, they
disagreed on certain issues like torture, but it was sort of papered over.
And what you see in the last six to eight months is that with Trump`s kind
of feeling emboldened himself to make his own decision and listen to his
own instincts, on top of hiring someone like John Bolton who Mattis opposed
and moving Pompeo into the State Department, he is listening to those

And the other piece here, Chris, is that he doesn`t – Mattis doesn`t have
the buffer, the triumvirate, John Kelly has been – his power has been
diminished at chief of staff. That was in alliance and Rex Tillerson is
out. And so, he doesn`t have a the secretary of state that he is aligned
with either in the same way.

MATTHEWS: You know, I get the feeling, Shermichael, that when he hired
John Bolton, he forgot the rest of the guys. He brought in Mr. Neocon.
Why would he stick around with realists like Mad Dog Mattis anymore? It
makes no sense.

think about John Bolton, to your point, he is more in sync with what
Trump`s view of the world.

MATTHEWS: Trump is against stupid wars and Mr. Bolton is for all the
stupid wars.


SINGLETON: So, a lot of things that now he is for, and now he`s against.
I think Mattis represents something that is antithetical to what Mr. Trump
is as far as that nationalist tone, as far as America`s role in the world.
And John Bolton in my view sort of gives the president the necessary
credence, if you will, to say it is OK to act like –

MATTHEWS: Are you part of the 93 percent of Republicans that agree with
everything that Trump says –


SINGLETON: I`m just explaining the way the president has thought about
this, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Oh my God. You don`t think – are you telling me Trump is a

SINGLETON: I don`t know even if the president understands what neo-
conservatism is.

MATTHEWS: There`s the support guy.


MATTHEWS: Chris, your view on in this while we get on this, because I
think Mad Dog Mattis is seen by a lot of people who watch programs like
this and read the paper as sort of a stabilizing force. Apparently, he has
no role at all.

LU: Absolutely. What we have learned is that everyone in Trump`s universe
is disposable except for his family members, except now we`re talking about
the secretary of defense who is widely respected on both sides of the
aisle. And the fact that the president is freelancing policy, domestic
policy is troubling. It`s frightening on national security issues.

And maybe the reason why Secretary Mattis is slow-walking these policies is
because they`re really bad policy ideas that the president –

MATTHEWS: Well, that`s what a cabinet member is supposed to do. They`re
not supposed to salute everything. They`re supposed to administer as a

Anyway, in an interview last night, this is really wild. “Tonight Show”
host Jimmy Fallon expresses regret about his lighthearted interview with
President Trump during the 2016 campaign. Let`s watch.


JIMMY FALLON, HOST, TONIGHT SHOW: I did not do it to normalize him or to
say I believe in his political beliefs or any of that stuff. I don`t do
that with any guest.

Sorry. I don`t want to make anyone angry. I never do.


FALLON: And I never will. This was all in the fun of the show. And I
made a mistake. I`m sorry if I made anyone mad. And looking back, I would
do it differently.


MATTHEWS: I think Jimmy, maybe because he is at the same network as me,
but I do believe what he is trying to do is channel Johnny Carson who never
took political positions on anything.

Anyway, well, last night, President Trump tweeted, Jimmy Fallon is now
whimpering to all that he did the famous hair show with me where he
seriously messed up my hair, do you believe he talks like this? And that
he would have done it differently because it is said to have humanized me.

He is taking heat. He called and said monster ratings. Be a man, Jimmy.

Anyway, Fallon responded last night, tweeting, in honor of the president`s
tweet, I`ll be making a donation to the Refugee and Immigrant Center for
Education and Legal Services in his name. A little shot back there.


LU: It`s ironic that the president used the term “be a man.” Be a man
sometimes is turning the other cheek, letting go of some of the slights,
being presidential, which is a word we don`t use very often with Donald

Maybe listening to his wife`s advice who gave a wonderful speech yesterday
to a group of Virginia teens about compassion and kindness and positivity.

LEE: We have seen this president and he likes to take people`s principles
and test them and test them and push and then to get them to either give in
on some of those principles or for the president to be able to win. What
you`ve seen here is Jimmy Fallon now saying, you know, he is not going get
involved in politics. He`s not going to go there and he went there,
because the president pushed him there.

MATTHEWS: Who does this – you know, the things that kills mosquitoes,
Trump`s got one of them. Whenever he hears anybody who says it wasn`t
totally pro-Trumpian, he hears about it and immediately tweets on it. He
is like one of the mosquito catchers.

SINGLETON: I think that this plays great for the base. It sort of revs up
that cultural war that Republicans or at least conservatives has thought a
long time –

MATTHEWS: Jimmy Fallon is not his cultural enemy. Steve Colbert may be.

SINGLETON: Look, from the perspective of Republicans, 90 percent, this is
no longer Trump base.

MATTHEWS: They don`t like Jimmy Fallon.

SINGLETON: This is the party now, and they see this as the president
battling this culture war against Hollywood elitists. That`s the way they
perceive it.

MATTHEWS: Jimmy Fallon an elitist? Give me a break.

SINGLETON: I`m not saying I see this, Trump. I`m saying the perspective
of Trump voters and an overwhelming majority of Republicans.


LEE: It`s all part of the same line we`re seeing. It`s exactly that.
It`s this victimization, these big elites who are out to get us.


MATTHEW: Well, the round table is sticking with us. Up next, these three
will tell me something I don`t know. I didn`t know Jimmy Fallon was a
political partisan first of all.

You`re watching HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: Well, the “New York Times” reported this weekend on a newfound
infatuation of Donald Trump. It`s called the presidential challenge coin.
The coin is usually made to commemorate cultural trips or major events and
have been around since bill Clinton`s presidency.

But President Trump seems to be particularly enamored of them. There was
one created, for example, for the North Korean nuclear summit. On it were
the head shots of both President Trump and Kim Jong-un. Another features
Mar-a-Lago on the front there it is, with the presidential seal and Air
Force One on the back.

Ethics officials have taken issue with that coin, noting that government
resources should not be used to promote private businesses. The White
House argues back, the White House does, that those rules don`t apply in
this case, saying private funds were used to pay for these challenge coins.

And we`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: We`re back the HARDBALL round table.

Shermichael, tell me something I don`t know. It`s Monday. Hit me big.

SINGLETON: So, Dr. Ben Carson just launched his envision centers. I know
he has gotten a lot of criticism lately. But I wanted to mention this
because it`s a centralized hub that allows individuals who rely on HUD
services to go if they need help in search for jobs, health benefits, et
cetera. So, it`s like a one shop stop all if you will, one shop all if you

And I think it`s a beautiful –

MATTHEWS: So, if you`re having trouble getting a check or you`re having
trouble getting health care or you have to know which specialist to go to,
he is going to help?

SINGLETON: OK, Chris, come on now.

MATTHEWS: I`m just wondering what he`s helping with.

SINGLETON: I didn`t say all of that. I said it`s a centralized hub where
you can go to get information on a plethora of different things from jobs,
health care, et cetera. That`s a good thing. It`s going benefit a lot of

Hey, it`s a start, okay?

MATTHES: Thank you. You`re Republican. You`re part of that nine out of
ten. You`ve got to go along with everything. Thank you.


LEE: OK. Vice President Mike Pence is headed to Latin America tomorrow.
He is going to go to – you know, they`re saying he is going to talk about
issues like Venezuela and other things. But obviously happening as the
controversy at the border is going on.

So, he`s going to Brazil, Ecuador and Guatemala where there is a Guatemalan
mother who had sued the government because she was separated from her 7-
year-old son and they were reunited on Friday.

So, something to watch is, you know, what`s he say? Does he say anything?
How is he received? Are there protests?

MATTHEWS: You know, Latin America is known for its passionate leaders.
They`re very dramatic and charismatic. How are they going to –

LEE: And they don`t really hold back.

MATTHEWS: Ha! What are they going to make of this guy?

LEE: We`ll see.

MATTHEWS: OK. Go ahead. Chris?

LU: This past weekend marked the sixth anniversary of the passage of the
Republican tax bill. And there is a reason why Donald Trump is talk about
MS –

MATTHEWS: Six-month?

LU: Six-month anniversary. It`s the reason why Donald Trump is talking
about immigration because a new analysis by Americans for Tax Fairness
found that only 4 percent of workers got a pay raise as a result of the tax
bill. Most of that was the one-time bonuses instead of permanent

Only 10 percent of the overall tax savings went to pay higher wages for
workers, and overall share buyback, stock buybacks exceeded pay raises by
71 –

MATTHEWS: Which is what equity does at the top. They buy back stock.

LU: Absolutely. The wealthy shareholders, not to workers.

MATTHEWS: That explains why it`s not selling politically. It`s not

LU: And that`s why he is tweeting about Maxine Waters and Jimmy Fallon.

MATTHEWS: People are smart. People are smart. Yes, change the suggest,
Mr. President.

Thank you, Shermichael Singleton, holding in there, Carol Lee and Chris Lu,
who speaks truth.

When we return, let me finish tonight with “Trump Watch”. You`re watching


MATTHEWS: “Trump Watch”, Monday, June 25th, 2018.

Do you see what he is doing? Do you see how Donald Trump rallies his
troops? In this latest one, he`s calling for all people suspected of
crossing our southwest border to be taken immediately back across the

On the surface, it`s unconstitutional. While the courts will never let it
stands, Trump`s more mere proposing of it, the sheer simplicity of it will
sell with tens of millions of people would say that Donald Trump opposes
illegal immigration and he is ready to do something about it, while his
critics won`t. It has added firepower.

By proposing to send them back over the border, Trump is drawing the fire
of the mainstream press. The headline speaking shock and exclamation
points as the incoming comes from everywhere, the media, the Democrats, the
Latino advocacy groups.

And what does that all that do? It makes Donald Trump the last man
standing against illegal immigration, the last man standing against open
borders, not just the one politically opposing illegal immigration, but the
last one not for doing absolutely doing to regulate immigration.

What`s the Democrats` response? Exactly what many of us want it to be,
attack, attack, attack. But with his line of that attack, the message he
gets across that Trump`s critics are opposed to doing anything about
illegal immigration. That they`re so upset about stopping illegal
immigration Trump`s way they`re against it stopping any other way. In
other words, they`re for open borders.

So, every time Trump or Sarah Sanders accuses of being for open borders, I
hear the same strategy at work. Get the Democrats to scream bloody murder
when Trump does something to stop illegal immigration, and it will sound to
many people like the Democrats are defending illegal immigration, that they
are for open borders.

It`s how Trump got elected. It`s how he has clearly set his course to get
reelected, using Democrats to help him.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.


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