Secret JFK files revealed Transcript 10/27/17 Hardball with Chris Matthews

Shannon Pettypiece, Kimberly Atkins, Bob Cusack, Kathleen Parker, George Will, Jon Meacham

Date: October 27, 2017
Guest: Shannon Pettypiece, Kimberly Atkins, Bob Cusack, Kathleen Parker, George Will, Jon Meacham

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: The word from Dallas. Let`s play HARDBALL. Good
evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

Journalists, scholars and historians have been combing through the 2,800
documents all related to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy
which were released late last night. Much of the material reflects what
government officials and law enforcement authorities were thinking in real
time in the immediate aftermath of the assassination. On the day that
Kennedy assassin Lee Harvey Oswald was shot dead by Jack Ruby, FBI director
J. Edgar Hoover dictated a memo about how the bureau should proceed. It`s
not clear if a wider conspiracy was suspected, but the memo shows that
Hoover was concerned that the public would be skeptical of the initial

Quote, “The thing that I am concerned about is having something issued so
we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin.”

It`s also clear that the CIA had conducted surveillance on Oswald and were
aware of his associations with Soviet and Cuban officials during his visit
to Mexico City. However, the documents show that Lee Harvey Oswald was not
on the list of potential threats to the president, and he was only added
after he had killed the president on November 22nd.

I`m joined right now by Andrea Mitchell, chief foreign affairs
correspondent with NBC News. Julia Ainsley`s a national security reporter
with NBC News. And Jon Meacham is a presidential historian and an MSNBC
political analyst.

I want to get as much as we can get done tonight here, starting with what
is your understanding, Andrea, of what Hoover was trying to say with that

ANDREA MITCHELL, NBC CORRESPONDENT: What he was trying to say, at least if
you read the words, is that he was concerned that Americans would not
accept the finding that Oswald acted alone and he wanted to rule out any
suspicions of a conspiracy and –


MITCHELL: – reassure the American people. The why is what we don`t

MATTHEWS: Was it he was afraid – well, that`s what we have to speculate
on, Julia. We have to speculate on was he afraid that people would go
shooting Russians? Would they start engaging – ginning up the cold war
again, turning it hot?

JULIA AINSLEY, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, that`s why this document
is so interesting. It gives us a window into the time, and the time was
this height of tension during the cold war. He And was worried that this
would become more than the nation losing its president. It was going to
put people on an edge and lose trust in their democracy and their security.

MATTHEWS: Jon, put that in a box, will you, in a context about – That`s
how I remember it. And I`m old enough to remember it, that we were worried
– I mean, I wasn`t a leader then, obviously, but I knew that leaders were
worried that we were right at the edge of the cold war turning hot, and if
the word had ever gotten out in any way that the Russians had re killed our
hero, there could have been real trouble.

JON MEACHAM, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you were only 13 months away
from what Arthur Schlesinger called the most dangerous hours in human
history, the Cuban missile crisis of October `62. Diem had been
assassinated in Vietnam. It was one of the darkest and scariest times

And when you think about what was going on in the United States, you had
fear on the far right, you had fear on the far left. These documents show
that there was a lot of speculation. Was this a far-right assassin? Was
this a far-left assassin? People were genuinely concerned and rationally
that the country was facing an existential crisis.

MATTHEWS: We also know that Oswald went to the Soviet embassy in Mexico
City in September of `63, just a couple months before, and met with a man
named Kostikoff. A memo delivered to the director of the CIA the day after
the assassination says that Kostikoff is an identified KGB officer and had
worked with the KGB`s 13th department, which is responsible for sabotage
and assassination.

However, as far as the CIA could tell at the time, Oswald discussed
passport and visa matters with Kostikoff That is information we would have
liked to have had at the time, right afterwards. He`s meeting with the
Soviet KGB guy in Mexico City two months before he assassinates Kennedy.

MITCHELL: And that`s what makes me so suspicious of Hoover`s, let`s
reassure the public that it was just Oswald. Is he covering up for either
the FBI or the CIA.

MATTHEWS: Incompetent.

MITCHELL: The incompetence, the fact that they were tracking him. Was
high school under surveillance? He must have been in Mexico because we
know some of these other documents they know exactly what his path was, and

MATTHEWS: He was with that playwright at a party. We know that. It shows
up in a –


MITCHELL: Did they drop the ball and was he covering up for the FBI or the

MATTHEWS: And we also have these other documents, Julia, we all looked at
overnight, where he`s on the phone with the Soviet people, the Soviet
embassy and people down there. He`s writing a letter to the Soviet embassy
in Washington. He`s dealing with them on visa matters and stuff like that.
But also complaining that he`s under surveillance by the FBI, complaining
to the Soviets that his fair play for community participation was getting
him watched.

AINSLEY: Right. So that`s –

MATTHEWS: Why is he telling them that?

AINSLEY: It al also begs the question if he is under surveillance by FBI
and CIA. They know about these conversations. Why is he just showing up
on the Secret Service watch list the day of the assassination?


AINSLEY: Right, after the assassination, after the fact.

MATTHEWS: How do you put it together, Julia? He spends a couple years in
Russia, marries a Russian woman, comes back disillusioned with Soviet
communism, but becomes an activist for a communist in our hemisphere,
Castro. And by the way, we all forget. Castro had come into power a few
years before, executed all his enemies. He was our enemy. He had lied to
us about being a democratic leader. He was a Soviet ally against us. And
I understand – all of a sudden, this guy is working with him down at the
embassy in Mexico City. He`s our enemy!

MITCHELL: Well, the other thing is –

MATTHEWS: He`s the president`s enemy.

MITCHELL: – you have to remember the context, which I know you do and
Jon does, Julia is too young, but coming at that point when we were just
having come through in the `50s this anti-Soviet – this was the height of
the cold war –


MITCHELL: No, I`m not saying – I`m not saying that. But McCarthyism, all
the rest. There was suspicion around. People were being followed and put
on watch lists. So the fact that he did not pop up as someone that the
Secret Service should be concerned about with the president going to
Dallas, given his movements, is very suspicious.

MATTHEWS: let`s take a look at some more documents. Another FBI document
we just got summarizes the Soviet reaction to the events that unfolded in
Dallas on that day. Quote, “Officials of the Communist Party of the Soviet
Union believe there was some well organized conspiracy on the part of the
ultra-right in the United States to effect a coup. Our source further
states that Soviet officials were fearful that without leadership, some
irresponsible general in the United States might launch a missile at the
Soviet Union.”

Jon Meacham, what do you make of that? Do you believe that was agitprop or
sheer true Soviet fear that there was a right-wing conspiracy in this
country that led to the assassination?

MEACHAM: Well, you know, fear is often projection. And I think the
Soviets worried about that in their own country, and I think they probably
looked at the United States and wondered. You know, “Seven Days in May”
was not that remote a possibility –


MEACHAM: – in those days. The other thing I think that`s a big part of
all these documents, kind of a unifying denominator, is that this is a dark
forest, right? The early 60s is a dark forest in American politics. We
think of it as a golden age, of Camelot in Mrs. Kennedy`s marvelous
formulation. But you had an enormous amount of loose factors, if you will.
You had the mob running around. You had the CIA and the Bay of Pigs. You
had fear of Soviet and far-right penetration and agents provocaturs in the
United States.

I think one of the things that probably Hoover and the other authors of
these documents didn`t know is really what had happened, and they didn`t
know what they might have set in motion at some point or another that might
have reaped the whirlwind in Dallas that day.

MATTHEWS: You know, what I`m struck by in the middle of the night because
I`m working on this book on Bobby for all these years. There I`m reading
the real documents. I`m reading how, you know, Giancana, who the CIA had
hired to kill Castro.

MITCHELL: The mob boss.

MATTHEWS: The mob boss. The heir to Al Capone in Chicago, the hitman –
there he is, the godfather! He was the role model, was hired by the CIA to
kill Castro. He wouldn`t take the 150,000 bucks they offered him because
he wanted to have them on the hook.

Bobby, meanwhile, who`s been chasing Giancana since his racket committee`s
days for three – and then putting them on the list of people who went
after – with – with the – (INAUDIBLE) what was it, for the IRS. He was
trying to get his tax returns, just trying to nail him just like they
nailed Capone, and then they found out they`re all on the take they`re all
working with us. And Bobby says, “Don`t do that without talking to me
again.” Now, he didn`t say, Don`t kill Castro without talking to me again,
Jon. He said don`t do – go after using Giancana and the mob to go after

And then all these questions that swirl afterwards. Was the mob getting
even with Jack Kennedy? And I`m sure Bobby Kennedy, although he went along
with the Warren commission to the day of his death, really, and so did
Teddy Kennedy – he must have, and I`ve heard this from people like
Sorensen and others, Ted Sorensen – he was always in the back of his mind
thinking, Did I do something to disturb that whole awful underworld that
somehow led to Lee Harvey Oswald doing what he did?

MEACHAM: I don`t – you know, you`ve forgotten more about this than I
know. But I will say about this about Robert Kennedy. It has always
seemed to me in reading the record that his deep grief was exacerbated by a
fear of guilt. And I think that his immersion in the ancients in the wake
of the assassination and Aeschylus and reading Edith Hamilton – you know,
the great quotation he ended up using when Martin Luther King was killed –


MEACHAM: – when RFK was in Indianapolis about grief and sorrow, the
quotation that is there at Arlington – I think that has some connection to
exactly that, the fears that perhaps he set something in motion or may have
helped something along that –

MATTHEWS: – ended up with those shots in Dallas.

MATTHEWS: Catholic guilt goes a long way. Anyway, another document shows
that in a 1975 deposition, former CIA director Richard Helms was asked,
quote, “Is there any information involved with the assassination of
President Kennedy which in any way shows that Lee Harvey Oswald was in some
way a CIA agent or an agent” – at that point, the sentence stops. It`s
the end of it. The document`s incomplete. It just ends there.

My friend, Andrea, this is what gives conspiracy theorists lives.

MITCHELL: When I saw that, it just – the last page of this deposition –

MATTHEWS: Who rippled the page off?

MITCHELL: – is missing. This is the former CIA director, Richard Helms,
who is a legendary, iconic figure, a spymaster. And he`s – this –

MATTHEWS: OK, but they left the CIA part on, but the other possibility

MITCHELL: There`s only one possibility, really –

MATTHEWS: So this –

MITCHELL: – an agent of the Soviet Union –

MATTHEWS: Yes. Why`d they –

MITCHELL: – because you wouldn`t say an agent of the mob.

MATTHEWS: Why are we still, in 2017, trying to defend a Soviet Union which
doesn`t exist anymore?

MITCHELL: Well, to avoid an eruption, I presume. This is 1975, so the
height of the cold war to avoid some sort of huge conflagration, which
could have led to a war between – I mean, you – you had two nuclear
powers, and this was still so raw. And the fact, by the way, that we`re
not going to see the rest of the documents for six months and there will
still be redactions is so tantalizing and so mysterious. What is the
purpose any –

MATTHEWS: Why six months? Can`t they speed it up a little bit?

MITCHELL: I mean, they had 25 years to do this. Don`t they have enough
people at the CIA and the FBI –

MATTHEWS: Julia, what do you think? You`re fresh – you`re fresh eyes on
this. Andrea and I grew up with this. (INAUDIBLE) fresh eyes looking at
this thing. These are the same old theories we had. The Soviets were
involved. They didn`t want a third world war. They better keep it from us
because we`re all children, of course, the United States, so keep the
information from us.

AINSLEY: Right. I mean, you can understand that reasoning in the `60s.
You can understand that reasoning even in the `70s. Why in 2017 are we
setting an arbitrary deadline six months from now that has nothing to do
with the law in 1992 that was supposed to give us –


MATTHEWS: I learned one thing. You weren`t here at lunchtime. Peter was
here. But I learned one thing in digging through this stuff in the middle
of the night. Jack Ruby – how did he get in that room when Lee Harvey
Oswald walked by? According to this informant, he had a nightclub and he
had what we called in the `60s “B girls.” These were women who would hang
around bars, cheap, sleazy bars, and guys would come in alone and they`d
sit there and tell – and you`re nice, it`s nice to talk to you, and get
them to buy them drinks, watered-down drinks, and have the guy run up the
tab. And it wasn`t awful (ph). It was just a little bit sleazy.

And the police protected – this guy said the police protected that racket,
so he had a good – quote, “good in” with the Dallas police. So it
explains how he could go carousing with these guys, find his way into the
hallway. Oh, that`s just Jack Ruby. He`s our buddy. You know? I always
wondered, how`d he get in that room?

MITCHELL: And what about the Hoover note saying that – upset that the FBI
had warned the Dallas police that there was quote, “a committee to get Jack
Ruby” –


MITCHELL: – to kill Jack Ruby, and he was upset that –

MATTHEWS: You know –

MITCHELL: – the Dallas police had not –

MATTHEWS: You know, J. Edgar Hoover looks pretty good in this whole thing,
I got to say. I know he has his critics, to say the least, on all fronts.
I thought he was trying to do his job. He didn`t want to start some kind
of a big craziness about something until he had the facts.

But by the way, what we can tell from these notes, he was trying to find
out if there was a conspiracy. He may have shut it down in the short run,
but he wanted to know what was behind it because the FBI didn`t look too
great beforehand. They looked better afterwards.

Andrea Mitchell, my pal, thank you so much. We`ve been through this all in
real time. Anyway, Julia Ainsley – we really were! – and Jon Meacham.
You`re the best. Thanks for putting the wrapping around this story. It`s
an amazing story.

Coming up – it`s official. The Republican Party has become Donald Trump`s
party. Last night, I called it the invasion of the body snatchers, regular
Republicans now in the grips of the triumphant right wing, anyway, marching
to the beat of the man in the White House. The GOP may be getting smaller,
but Trump`s hold on it is getting tighter.


ANNOUNCER: Plus the Trump distraction strategy as Robert Mueller escalates
his investigation into collusion with Russia. The Trump crowd is going
back to a tried and true game, blame Hillary. Believe it or not, they`re
doing it again.

And the HARDBALL roundtable tonight takes on Republican unity under Trump.
The president`s awkward interaction with the children of the press corps –
we just (INAUDIBLE) see that and how the GOP is getting on board the Roy
Moore train.

Finally, let me finish tonight with “Trump Watch. ” He will definitely not
like it tonight.

This is HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS: A quick programming note. This weekend, I begin the nationwide
tour for “Bobby Kennedy: Raging Spirit” with an appearance on Sunday
morning on “Meet the Press.”

And then on Monday, I begin the day on the “Today” show, back here on
HARDBALL Monday night. And then I do the Rachel Maddow show also here on

This is a beautiful book inside and out. I think it will revive the spirit
of a country that needs to believe again in leadership to unite us, not
divide us, who show compassion for those overlooked, who believe a great
country must also be a good country. “Bobby Kennedy: Raging spirit”
arrives next Tuesday.

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. As the smoke clears, it looks like
the Republican rebellion has been broken. It`s been three days since
Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee and Senator Jeff Flake of Arizona publicly
criticized the president of the United States.


SEN. JEFF FLAKE (R), ARIZONA: We must stop pretending that the degradation
of our politics and the conduct of some in our executive branch are normal.
They are not normal. And when such behavior emanates from the top of our
government, it is something else. It is dangerous to a democracy.

SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: It`s obvious his political model and
governing model is to divide. And he has not risen to the occasion. I
think that the worst of it is just going to be the whole debasing, if you
will, of our nation.


MATTHEWS: Wow. But it was a call to arms that fell on deaf ears. In
fact, it seemed to do the opposite. President Trump rallied Republican –
congressional Republicans around him. Let`s listen.


REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I think people should settle
their differences personally. I think it`s better that way. I think it`s
in our interests to have party unity so that we can continue to work
forward on an agenda.

accomplish things for the American people. We`re all on the sage page on
the issues that I`ve mentioned.

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R) SOUTH DAKOTA: I think that there are always going to
be differences of opinions and agreements, and that`s true in any family.
But I just think it`s better if you can to keep those family feuds and
fights within the family. It would have been better if either side in some
of these disputes if they would just have those conversations in private
rather than having them in public.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The one thing I would say to both
of these of my colleagues. I admire you. I like you. You`ve got guts.
To the president, you won, you beat me. I want you to be successful. To
all three of you, knock it off.



MATTHEWS: Well, 12 months since the election, and the metamorphosis of the
Republican Party is complete. It`s Trump`s party now.

Among his base, Trump is stronger than anybody thought, with most polls
showing him that 80 percent of Republicans approve of the job the president
is doing.

But as Trump`s grip on the party tightens, the Republican tent is getting
smaller, not bigger. According to a recent poll, only 40 percent of
independent voters approve of the job the president is doing, while 60
percent, of course, disapprove.

For more, I`m joined by Kathleen Parker and George Will, both columnists
for “The Washington Post,” and Yamiche Alcindor, reporter with “The New
York Times” and an MSNBC contributor.

Kathleen, you know, you would have thought after that dramatic indictment,
“J`accuse,” of Senator Flake, it would have had the walls tumbling down.
In fact, he`s just leaving. That`s all. That`s all that`s happening.


No, he got 24 hours of, oh, you`re awesome, you`re so brave, you`re so
courageous. Of course, he had started this long ago with his book in which
he took on the president.

MATTHEWS: Right. Of course, he took on the president, until he got
sitting right there one night, and wouldn`t do it. So he wasn`t quite sure
of his attack plan.


Well, and then upon realizing he`s not going to be reelected, he decides to
make a stronger statement. But, you know, virtue only lasts about 24 hours
in Washington, and I think that he`s going to now discover that it`s a
lonely place for the next – for the duration of his term.

MATTHEWS: Is it your sense that there was a rally that was done
organizationally that all the Republican leaders like Thune and all the
rest of them all were called together and say, I want positive statements
from you about the leadership?

Because it seems like they all were rolling out today, including Lindsey
Graham. Everybody was ready to say, let`s rally together.

PARKER: I think they have to, if they want to get anything done. And as
long as Trump lets them get done the things that they want, they`re going
to still be – they`re still going to carry the banner. They might not
like it and they may talk about the president behind his back.

And, in fact, they do often and with great passion. But they`re
nonetheless going to protect the party, to the extent they can.

MATTHEWS: George, is it the one thing they do agree on, they need to get
something done this year, they have to agree on the tax bill, which means
they need 50 out of 52?

GEORGE WILL, “THE WASHINGTON POST”: Look, these Vichy Republicans would be
perhaps excused if they were getting things done.

But, remember, they were going to do repeal and replace Obamacare by March,
tax reform by August and the infrastructure by Christmas. They`re going to
get one-half of one of those, that is, tax reform, understood as tax
reduction, understood as further inflating the national debt, and go home
and say, we advanced our agenda.

Mr. Thune in that quote you just had there says, well, we have differences
of opinion.

They`re not arguing about how much to subsidize soybeans or what the
marginal tax rate ought to be. This is about a persona. This is about an
approach to public rhetoric. This is about manners in public life. This
isn`t a family argument about what`s for dinner.

MATTHEWS: Well, to bring back an historic point, Winston Churchill left
the Tory Party for a while because he didn`t – he believed in free trade
and he didn`t believe in protectionism.

That was an issue with him. Now you have a Republican Party which is
willing to switch from concern over deficits to we`re going to blow out the
whole budget and have a big deficit and we don`t care. What happened?
We`re going to become the protectionist party, instead of the free trade

That`s a lot of orthodoxy thrown out the window.

WILL: Yes.

MATTHEWS: For one guy.

WILL: Yes.

A great Catholic theologian once said about the liberalism of the church,
he said that the dogmas fly out the window, but the parishioners don`t come
in the door. And we will see if this attracts people in the Republican
Party, or whether they lose an equal number, convictions and voters.


Yamiche, it looks like the Republican Party is still the Republican Party
of falling in line, rather than falling in love. I don`t think any of
these senators love Trump. I don`t think they go to bed at night reading
his catechism.

I think they agree with him on anything, but yet they know they have to do
what? Why is it, as a reporter, do you see them falling in line?

rMD-BO_YAMICHE ALCINDOR, MSNBC ANALYST: They`re falling in line because
they`re looking at their base, and when they go back to their districts and
reporters like me ask them questions, they are looking at constituents and
say, why didn`t you support the president with the health care bill, why
didn`t you stand up for President Trump when he was fighting with Corker?
I want answers from you.

And that`s because, while President Trump`s numbers, well, you show that
they might be good among Republicans, there isn`t approval nationally, that
he still has a pretty low approval rating. But Congress` approval rating
is even worse.

So, they`re in an even worse position than President Trump. And you have
the Republican leadership, like Mitch McConnell, also not being very
strong. So, what do they have to do? They have to fall in line with the
person who at this point is leading the party.

MATTHEWS: You know, Roosevelt was trying to do purges in the second New
Deal and it didn`t work, with Senator George in Georgia. He didn`t get rid
of anybody. He was the most powerful president we can imagine.

It does seem that, although he`s not purging people, there`s an atrophying
going on. You have got Strong loses. You have got the guy Heller in
trouble now in Nevada. You have got – it looks like Orrin Hatch is going
to probably retire at the end of the year, probably. It looks like it.

They`re all at the edge of Trumpism, and they`re falling off the cliff.

PARKER: Well, look, something is definitely happening.

MATTHEWS: And, of course, Flake and, of course, Corker.

PARKER: Well, yes, of course.

And President Trump can use those exits as evidence that, you know, we`re
getting rid of –


PARKER: – the people who are in our way.

MATTHEWS: Steve Bannon calls them scalps.

PARKER: And there you go. And Steve Bannon is out there recruiting
candidates who are even further to the right than these real – these
people who are actually true conservatives, but not quite conservative
enough, but, most important, not loyal enough.

MATTHEWS: George, do you think it will be a Trump party three years from

WILL: Yes. Four years from now is another matter.

We`re losing sight of one fact. And that is, he`s way underwater in
approval of the national electorate. He`s about 38, 39 in the
RealClearPolitics average.

If he goes into 2020 like that, he will not be reelected. Now, the
Democrats seem to me have figured out in their shrewd and self-destructive
way how to have another McGovern moment.

MATTHEWS: Yes, i know.

WILL: Because they`re going to say, oh, we have a bright idea. Let`s make
everybody sign up to get into the nomination contest for a single-payer

That immediately offends 155 – 157, actually, million Americans.

MATTHEWS: I read them in your column the other day, the people with

WILL: Who get their insurance from their employers and are happy with

MATTHEWS: Well, anyway, President Trump is casting a long shadow, of
course, over races across the country, as we said.

The Virginia governor`s race, of course, coming up very soon is proving to
be a dry run on how Republicans adjust to Trump`s GOP. Democratic
candidate Ralph Northam has gone after the president. Let`s watch.


taking on tough fights and, as governor, I won`t let Donald Trump stand in
our way.


MATTHEWS: His Republican challenger, meanwhile, Ed Gillespie, is taking a
different route. Despite avoiding the president, not inviting him into the
state, he has embraced the president`s issues.

Gillespie echoed the president`s stance on immigration, even running ads in
Northern Virginia about the threat posed by the Central American gang MS-
13. Let`s listen.


NARRATOR: MS-13 is a mess, yet Ralph Northam voted in favor of sanctuary
cities that let dangerous illegal immigrants back on the street, increasing
the threat of MS-13.

Ralph Northam`s policies are dangerous.


MATTHEWS: Yamiche, why would they run that in the Washington suburbs? We
have a lot of minorities here. We have a lot of people who are sensitive
to what look like ethnic politics.

ALCINDOR: They`re running it because Ed Gillespie almost lost the race to
Corey Stewart. And, as a result, he is in some ways really scared about
the fact that he has to cater to this base that almost voted for his

MATTHEWS: Even up here around the Potomac River? Even here?

ALCINDOR: I think that when people have to – when people can vote
anonymously that they`re voting with the idea that they don`t have to
answer to some of the cultural issues that we have.

And Northern Virginia is changing a lot. If you look at the schools that
people are starting to send their kids to are getting browner. And people
are in some ways –

MATTHEWS: Yes, but then why are they running against brown people in this

George, why would you make a decision? I know and you know, George, we all
know Maryland and Virginia. They figure out which group to play to, which
group not to play to, the white working class, the rural whites, the
African-Americans, the single white pro-choice women.

They know exactly who to play to. Why are they playing up north here with
this rabble-rouser against Hispanics?

PARKER: I don`t know. It`s right out of the “Reefer Madness” movie-
making. It`s comical.

And the decision was obviously, I don`t know, a ridiculous one.

MATTHEWS: George, what do you make of this programming here?

WILL: Well, Ed Gillespie speaks Trumpism as a second language, awkwardly.
And he doesn`t get the syntax, so he does a thing like that.

He has a problem, as you say. He barely beat a Trumpkin in the primaries.
Now he has to appeal to them without offending everybody who is offended by
them, which is a very difficult thing to do. And he`s running against a
man who is militantly vanilla.

Dr. Northam, he`s a pediatric neurosurgeon.


MATTHEWS: I know. I know. The ads are vanilla. I know.

WILL: He`s a pediatric neurosurgeon being advertised as a friend of an
international criminal gang.


ALCINDOR: But here is the thing.

I think that part of why this might work, if he wins, is because Donald
Trump is at his best when he`s doing cultural wars, right, like not when
he`s doing policy, because he didn`t win on policy.

He won on that feeling that America is going to take of you and I`m going
to define what America is, and these MS-13 people are not what America is

And, as a result, they`re also the same thing as a 10-year-old girl who may
be looking for – to get surgery, but is undocumented. They`re meshing
those two populations together pretty masterfully.

MATTHEWS: Well, thank you.

This is an amazing topic.


MATTHEWS: Go ahead. Last word.

PARKER: It`s just the most extreme example of horrible people that you
could possibly come up with.


I think speaking Trumpism as a second language reminds me of Trump trying
to speak empathy as a second language.


MATTHEWS: They`re neither very good at it.

Kathleen Parker, George F. Will, and Yamiche Alcindor.

Up next: With the Mueller investigation intensifying, President Trump and
his associates have returned to their own playbook, distract, distract,

And this is HARDBALL, where the action is.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

We have got three late-breaking stories right now relating to the Trump-
Russia investigation.

Byron York of “The Washington Examiner” is reporting on the genesis of that
opposition research that eventually produced the dossier on Donald Trump –
quote – “The conservative publication `Washington Free Beacon` informed
the House Intelligence Committee today that the organization was the
original funder for the anti-Trump opposition project with Fusion GPS.”

Wow. That`s a blockbuster.

Thereafter, after we learned this week, the Clinton campaign and the DNC
picked up the tab. “the Free Beacon” has also now confirmed that they were
responsible, but say that none of the work they received from Fusion
appears in the Steele dossier.

Separately, NBC News is exclusively reporting tonight that former CIA
Director James Woolsey has been interviewed by the special counsel`s
investigators to discuss his allegation that Michael Flynn proposed a
potentially illegal plan to send a Turkish cleric back to Turkey from the
U.S. against his will.

NBC News also reports that former Trump adviser Carter Page – there he is
– met with the Senate Intelligence Committee today for five hours.

I`m joined right now by NBC`s investigative reporter, Ken Dilanian.

First of all, “The Washington Free Press” (sic), that`s a Bill Kristol
operation, a neocon operation, if you will. Why were they investigating

New York Times” is reporting this hour that that publication is financed by
Paul Singer, who is a New York hedge fund billionaire who supported Marco

Now, “The Times” says that Singer also had no knowledge of the dossier.
And, as you said, “The Free Beacon” says in their statement that they
funded – they hired Fusion GPS to do opposition research on Trump, but
they had nothing to do with the dossier, with Christopher Steele, that
former British intelligence officer, or anything to do with the Russia
research, according to them, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Well, who was putting out the word that it was a Republican
candidate? We all got the idea it was a candidate – one of the candidates
against – remember, we were going after Marco Rubio, and he denied it.

How did that trail lead to another Republican candidate, rather than this
conservative, neoconservative organization?

DILANIAN: Well, Singer, the bankroller of this publication, was a Rubio
supporter, so maybe that`s the germ of it.

MATTHEWS: Oh, I see.



Let me ask you about Jim Woolsey`s testifying. Jim Woolsey has been a
major player in this town. What about this thing that Michael Flynn, he`s
bringing up, where Michael Flynn apparently suggested or went along with
some Turkish plan to reclaim one of their nationals here in the United
States against his will?

DILANIAN: Here is why this is significant, Chris.

We have known that Michael Flynn has a Russia problem. It`s also pretty
clear he has a Turkey problem. He was paid more than half-a-million
dollars to lobby on behalf of the government of Turkey.

And he has this meeting, according to the former CIA Director Woolsey,
where, according to Woolsey, a plan was discussed to send this cleric back,
a potentially illegal plan.

Now we know that special counsel Robert Mueller is investigating this as
part of his probe into Flynn. And we know that because Woolsey telling us
in a statement that he`s been interviewed by the FBI and by FBI agents
working for Robert Mueller, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Well, you know especially this spy stuff, Ken, but this looks
like a scene from “The Americans,” where they grab somebody and exfiltrate
him, if you will, against his will. This – it sounds like kidnapping.

DILANIAN: It`s incredible. That`s exactly what it sounds like.

But don`t forget, Mike Flynn became the national security adviser, and
there was a proposal on the table. The Turkish government wants to
extradite this cleric through legal means. And so an open question is,
what did Mike Flynn do when he got in the government to advance this cause,


Let me ask you about the Senate Intel Committee going after Carter Page,
the one that I call the Kato Kaelin of this affair.

It`s never clear to me what role Carter Page played in anything, except
sort of being around. There he is walking away after his testimony today.

DILANIAN: You`re absolutely right.

And, you know, I`m in regular e-mail correspondence with Carter Page, and
he completely denies any collusion with Russia. But he did take that trip
to Moscow in 2016, and he made a – what has been described as a pro-Russia
speech while he was advising the Trump campaign.

And I think it`s interesting that they talked to him, the Senate
Intelligence Committee did, for something like five hours, we`re reporting.
Clearly, he`s got something that they`re interested in.

MATTHEWS: What do you make of the Trump people`s charge that Hillary
Clinton was somehow in cahoots with the Russians with regard to the uranium
deal and also with regard to the dossier?

DILANIAN: Look, it`s bogus.

In terms of that Uranium One thing, I mean, look, it`s a story that doesn`t
look good for the Clintons because they got money while this thing was
going through the government, but there`s no evidence that she played any
role in approving that sale of a Canadian uranium company to a Russian
uranium company.


MATTHEWS: And the uranium wasn`t going to Russia. And the uranium wasn`t
going to Russia anyway.

DILANIAN: It`s staying in the United States, absolutely.

MATTHEWS: Thank you. Thank you so much.

And comparing her to the Rosenbergs, unbelievable.

Anyway, Ken Dilanian, thank you for the great Friday night reporting.

Up next, there`s a lot to go with the HARDBALL Roundtable tonight, lots to
talk about, from the lovefest between Trump and the Republicans, to the
growing list of GOP senators throwing their support behind this guy, Roy
Moore, the Ten Commandments guy. They`re giving him the 11th commandment
treatment, say no evil of a fellow Republican.

You`re watching HARDBALL.



in the Republican Party. If you look at what happened yesterday at the
meeting, I called it a love fest. It was almost a love fest. Maybe it was
a love fest. But we – standing ovations. There is great unity.



According to President Trump, of course, the Republican Party is perfectly
unified. You just heard it. But one of his strongest allies, Governor
Chris Christie of New Jersey, disagrees. He warned his party today they
could pay the price in the 2018 election. Let`s watch.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: GOP unity on a scale of one to ten.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Five. Five. You know, I think we`re
unified on a lot of issues, but we`re not unified on how to approach those
issues. And if you`re not unified on both, you`re not going to get things
done. I want to see these things done and we`re not unified on how to go
about this and if we`re not, we`re going to pay a price at the polls.


MATTHEWS: So, who is right?

Let`s bring in tonight`s roundtable. Shannon Pettypiece is White House
reporter for “Bloomberg News”, Kimberly Atkins is chief Washington
correspondent for “The Boston Herald”, and Bob Cusack is editor in chief of
“The Hill”.

Let me start with you right down the line here. Is the Republican Party in
good shape?

battle for the heart and soul of the Republican Party going on right now
certainly. There is unity to some extent around issues. These are all
still Republicans. They all still believe in some core issues.

One of the biggest divides among them is how do they deal with Trump,
though. Do they speak out against inflammatory tweets and rhetoric and
concern about national security –

MATTHEWS: But they`re not doing that. You know the answer – circling the
wagons around him.

PETTYPIECE: And if you are Jeff Flake and John McCain and Bob Corker, you
do. While the rest of them fall in probably not after seeing what happened
to Flake.

MATTHEWS: Kimberly, I thought when they started to give those dramatic
speeches, especially Senator Flake, it was right out of the movies. It was
like Mr. Smith goes to Washington, that the walls would start tumbling down
but they have not. The Republicans have united.

have not. And it`s tough. I mean, you know, Governor Christie is in New
Jersey and he`s in a position where he can give a little more honest
assessment of it. Members of Congress have their constituencies to please.

MATTHEWS: He`s gone politically. Have you noticed?

ATKINS: Right, right. He`s not here. And so, you know, voters so far
think that the president is doing an OK job and that it`s the Congress
that`s the problem that`s keeping him from passing his agenda. They`re
blaming them not him. They have a lower approval numbers than the
president. So, they really don`t have the ability to speak out.

MATTHEWS: Well, speaking of division, the Republicans are grappling with
how fully to embrace Roy Moore. This is the same question to you. The
Alabama Senate candidate who backs criminalizing homosexual behavior and
once argued a Muslim elected official shouldn`t be able to sit as a U.S.

Anyway, Senator John Cornyn endorsed Moore this week, saying he was proud
to offer his support. He joins Senators Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and Rand Paul
in endorsing Moore. What do you make of it, Bob? Are they together or not

BOB CUSACK, EDITOR IN CHIEF, THE HILL: This is a problem for Republicans
because if Roy Moore is elected, he`s going to say some controversial
things and a reporter is going to go to every Republican senator, do you
agree with Moore? It`s not a done deal that he`s going to get elected in

But, you know, on health care, if they were united, they would have passed
that bill. They didn`t. Mitch McConnell said earlier this year if we
unite, we win, and they haven`t been able to unite.

MATTHEWS: They need 50 to 52. But I remember the Ronald Reagan phrase,
the 11th commandment, speak no evil of a fellow Republican. Should they or
will they extend that eleventh commandment to Roy Moore who believes in the
10 Commandments being nearby?

PETTYPIECE: If you`re a Republican who is trying – who is facing a
primary in 2018, I think you keep your mouth closed. Because the people
who show up for Republican primaries are the Trump base, are the far right-
wing of the Republican Party.

MATTHEWS: Yes, with Moore.

PETTYPIECE: Now, it may not get you elected in a general election, that we
don`t know yet.

MATTHEWS: Now for something on the lighter side. For Kimberly in the
spirit of Halloween, President Trump met today with the children of White
House press corps people. Let`s watch that intermingling.


TRUMP: I cannot believe the media produced such beautiful children. How
the media did this, I don`t know.

She`s Japanese. Beautiful. I`m going to be in Japan in two weeks. I`ll
be in Japan.


TRUMP: You know that?

That`s beautiful. These are beautiful, wonderful children. You`re going
to grow up to be like your parents?

Don`t answer. That can only get me in trouble, that question.

Who likes this? You have no weight problems. That`s the good news, right?
So how does the press treat you?

I`ll bet you get treated better by the press than anybody in the world,
right? I think so.

Anyway, well, congratulations, folks. You did a good job.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, thank you.

TRUMP: You did a good job.


MATTHEWS: Well, Kimberly, is your heart melting, come on?

ATKINS: Oh, my goodness. It`s nothing new, the president reeling against
the press. I mean, the fact that he`s doing it to the faces of their
children is a little uncomfortable to watch. I mean, but the weight
comment, come on. Didn`t he learn anything from the controversy about
Alicia Machado, about, you know, weight-shaming people? He said that
there`s no weight problem in the room, so that they can have their candy.
I mean, come on.

MATTHEWS: He touched all the wrong areas there.

PETTYPIECE: Michelle Obama`s healthy eating.

ATKINS: Right. Maybe. That`s a stretch.

CUSACK: You know, when Republicans used to complain about the press, it
just didn`t work. For Trump, it`s worked. I mean, it`s worked certainly
with his base. He keeps going back to it.

MATTHEWS: He`s smart. He`s using the kids against the parents.

Thank you so much. That`s like grandparents too.

Anyway, the roundtable is sticking with us. And up next, these three will
give me three scoops they`ll be talking about tomorrow. This is HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with the HARDBALL roundtable.

Shannon, start this off. Tell me something I don`t know. Give me a scoop.

PETTYPIECE: OK. Next week, watch for the Fed chair. We reported today
that Jerome Powell is the first pick in the running or he`s the lead horse
there. So, it`s important decision next week.

MATTHEWS: Not Gary Cohn.

PETTYPIECE: Gary Cohn is out, we`re reporting.

MATTHEWS: Kimberly?

ATKINS: So, Democrats aren`t all in agreement perhaps about how to push
back against the tax bill as it comes up next week, although Nancy Pelosi
is saying that the bill is essentially looting middle class Americans.
Some Democrats know that there are a lot of voters who want a simplified
tax code, who want a middle class break, and they`re afraid if they rally
too hard against it, they`ll be label as obstructionists, just as the
president is trying to do –

MATTHEWS: They shouldn`t have to hire accountants when they make moderate
incomes. Go ahead.

CUSACK: House quietly passed a bill that would strengthen congressional
oversight over the executive. Darrel Issa`s bill, the Trump White House
has not said whether they support that bill and I don`t think they will
because Democrats could control the House in 2019.

MATTHEWS: What is, Issa is going to get bounced out of there anyway.

Thank you, Shannon Pettypiece, Kimberly Atkins and Bob Cusack.

Up next, what should Democrats be doing to take advantage of the growing
divide within the Republican. You`re watching HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

The Republican Party is fighting a civil war right now, split between
loyalist to President Trump and principled conservatives such as Senators
Corker and Flake who worry about the danger that president poses to the
party. But will Democrats be able to take advantage of this political

I`m joined right now by the great E.J. Dionne, one of the authors of the
new book “One Nation After Trump: A Guide for the Perplexed, the
Disillusioned, the Desperate and the Not Yet Deported”. E.J. is also a
“Washington Post” columnist, of course, and an MSNBC contributor.

E.J., I`ve only got a few minutes, so I`m going to give them to you, about
three minutes. And this is the challenge of your life. How do you reunite
working white people , white middle class people, working class people,
poor people, whatever, who have become enamored of Donald Trump, how do you
unite with the other people with the same economic interests again?

E.J. DIONNE, AUTHOR, “ONE NATION AFTER TRUMP”: Well, you`ve got a book
about Bobby Kennedy and he knew how to do it because both groups trusted
him. Why did they trust him? They trusted him because he was for civil
rights unequivocally, but he was also for measures that were going to help
white working people.

And there is no reason why Democrats should choose between one of those
commitments and the other. The slogan of the great Civil Rights march in
1963 was jobs and freedom. And what that was is a message that if you care
about racial justice, you got to care about economic justice. But if you
care about economic justice, you got to care about racial justice.

And Donald Trump has opened the door wide for progressives and Democrats to
make this case, because he talked about working people in the campaign, but
what he`s done on tax cuts, on health care, and on pretty much everything
else, and by the way where is infrastructure program, nothing he`s done has
really helped white working class people.

MATTHEWS: I agree with you, because the one or two things I did like about
Trump`s message, not him but his message was, no more stupid wars, and I
thought that was good argument to make for this country, because I thought
Iraq made no sense at all. In fact, it was horrendous. And also the idea
of rebuilding our public infrastructure, building railroads across the
United States, doing stuff the Democrats like Roosevelt used to proudly say
we`re going to do and they don`t do it anymore. They don`t talk about
building anymore.

Your thoughts?

DIONNE: You know, if Trump had actually started with infrastructure, he
would have put Democrats in a very difficult position. Instead, he tried
to repeal Obamacare, and doing that was going to hurt his own people like
in places like Kentucky and West Virginia.

And Democrats have put out an infrastructure program but I think they need
to talk about that a lot more. They also need to talk about ideas about
Sherrod Brown and Michael Bennet have put forward about a child tax credit
of 3,000 bucks. That would actually help working families more than this
Bush tax cut.

They need day after day, the Democrats, to say he`s not doing anything for
you. Here`s what we are going to do for you. And it`s going to be
credible. I think that`s the other problem a lot of people in the working
class don`t trust government.

MATTHEWS: Well said.

And stop talking to your donors and start talking to your voters.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, thank you. I know you amen, that`s I said it because
you`re like me on this.

E.J. Dionne, “One Nation After Trump”, thank you so much.

Anyway, when we come back, we are going to finish tonight with “Trump
Watch”. He`s not going to like it.

You`re watching HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: “Trump Watch”, Friday, October 27th, 2017.

With Halloween on the way, we should have anticipated the masquerade rather
than grotesquery that the Trump ballyhoo team would have ready for the
occasion. Here they are facing a historic investigation into the role
Russia played in distorting an American presidential election, a role
verified by everyone of our intelligence agencies, and what do the Trump
people and White House decide to do?

Well, rather than deal with the investigation as a serious national matter,
they decide to stir up some Russian dressing, if you will, and squeeze it
on anything to do with Hillary Clinton. Why not? Their people will buy

As Trump himself put it, he could shot someone on Fifth Avenue, and they`d
buy that.

Christopher Steele`s dossier on Trump is being portrayed now as a Russian
job, the Russian dressing works just as well on anything you can cover it
with. And speaking of grotesquery, have you ever heard anything as
despicable coming from a national political figure as this guy Gorka saying
that Hillary Clinton should go to the electric chair like the Rosenbergs
because of the trade decision over uranium that does not send uranium to

I have to say, this is too spooky even for Halloween, even too ghastly for
Donald Trump.

That`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts right now.


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